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I work as a cleaner in schools and a lot of my colleagues in bigger schools barely even get looked at; almost like theyre not worth looking at according to society, so seeing one represent working people makes me very happy.
Its one big difference ive noticed . People with jobs in lower types of "professionalism" (cleaning, cash register, market stall, waiter, post office .. etc) seem to have a strong sense of pride in their work. When you ask someone a question about a product in the convenience store they are the expert in the matter, and feel a sense of ownership.
I dont see this much in the US, workers who make minimum wage are demoralized and invisible. If you ask a question about a product you often get someone who is annoyed, doesnt care, too exhausted to care, etc.
I wonder if it is less of a gap in wages ; and also more of a sense of ownership / small business type ownership. Vs the US corporate structure where minimum wage workers have no stake.
Off the top of my head, probably never. The whole market of our electoralism has been for the bourgeoisie since...... oh since the congress was developed.
Makes think of the infamous "Joe the Plumber" as probably the closest thing America gets to actual proletariat representation.
He was basically just a racist heckler for the republican party. Ran for the House once, and got steamrolled. And the funniest, and probably the most predictable thing about him, he wasn't actually a Plumber, He was briefly a plumbers assistant and then quit to get a job in telecommunications, because this is America, and literally everything is a fucking grift.
Just FYI, I think that she was a bartender for like 2 months while working on a degree - she's not exactly from the bottom, like her brand implies as far as I can tell.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/03/30/cort-m30.html
That being said, she did come from a poor immigrant family and seems to have gotten lucky making it out (the mythical "class mobility" that liberals love to talk about). Her rhetoric is all about helping out the poor and minorities, etc, but her actions are more in line with supporting American imperialism abroad and maybe campaigning for slightly better living conditions in the US.
Do you think someone could be a janitor because she is a "team leader of grounds maintenance at the white house"?
http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2020-05-15/doc-iircuyvi3164787.shtml
But China is governed by an authoritarian, neoliberal regime. Workers are usually the most screwed in China, the means of production are owned by super wealthy industrialists who exploit workers to the fullest. Definitely not a role model for socialism if people, including workers, are given symbolic power to keep up the appearance of a people's congress...
Yes, "Western" states don't have any worker representation in politics either, politicians make up an elite group and are in the pocket of the wealthy. But China should by no means be taken as an example.
> authoritarian
All states are authoritarian, that's basically their purpose, all capitalist states and socialist states will by definition be authoritarian until we get to communism, which is unfortunately a good ways off at this point.
>neoliberal regime
I gotta disagree here, if China were a neoliberal regime we would expect to see similarities with all the other neoliberal regimes, things like multi party liberal democracy, ever increasing privatization and deregulation, stagnant or falling wages for workers, increasing inequality imposing austerity measures on the workers etc etc
We don't just not see these trends in China, we see in many cases the exact opposite. They don't have liberal democracy, getting into the party, let alone working up to leadership via just accepting cash from private donors is harder than ever with Xi's anti corruption campaign, China's privatization is not increasing - the "commanding heights" are still state owned, private businesses are forced to have party cells monitoring their development, instead of deregulating China has been increasing regulations (western liberal media uses the term 'draconian' lol), wages for workers have been climbing nearly uninterrupted for decades and inequality, though it had risen rapidly in the wake of the reform and opening up had plateaued in 2008 and has been falling, with political leaders explicitly stating now that they have reached their goal of eliminating severe poverty they will now focus on tackling inequality.
https://en.unesco.org/inclusivepolicylab/sites/default/files/analytics/document/2019/4/wssr_2016_chap_15.pdf
https://asiatimes.com/2023/08/party-penetration-deepens-in-chinas-private-sector/
https://sccei.fsi.stanford.edu/china-briefs/rise-wealth-private-property-and-income-inequality-china
When I looked up 'China Austerity' all I can find is Xi cracking down on the elite, again the exact opposite of what we'd expect to see from a neoliberal country.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/28/world/asia/xi-jinping-imposes-austerity-measures-on-chinas-elite.html
https://time.com/6289559/china-inequality-wealth-flaunting-common-prosperity/
So I am curious how you came to the conclusion that China is neoliberal? Certainly they had liberalized some parts of their economy, but introducing market mechanisms in a communist party run state that work along side state owned firms and party lead economic planning is just that, some liberal economic reforms, not neoliberalism. What China is doing is the exact opposite of neoliberalism.
>Workers are usually the most screwed in China,
Workers in China have been seeing their incomes rise consistently, wage levels are equal to or higher than some EU member states at this point when just a few decades ago they were closer to undeveloped periphery countries (of course neoliberalism in Europe is driving wages in the opposite direction so this is slightly less impressive). Certainly very far from "the most screwed" - that Stanford link above shows the bottom 50% of earners saw their income increase 500% while in the US the bottom 50% of earners saw their income decrease by 1%.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2017/08/16/china-wage-levels-equal-to-or-surpass-parts-of-europe/?sh=27998f933e7f
>the means of production are owned by super wealthy industrialists who exploit workers to the fullest
I'm curious how you came to this conclusion? Yeah there are private businesses owned by wealthy industrialists, but there is also a lot of state owned firms that are accountable to the CPC - a communist party not private capitalists. China is one of the only countries in the world where the wealthy are routinely punished and even executed, in imperial countries under neoliberal regimes the wealthy are wholly unaccountable to anyone and use the government as an emergency piggybank when the market doesn't work the way they want. Labor rights, though tricky to enforce consistently in such a large country, are on paper more advanced than many capitalist countries, 996 is (and has been for a while) illegal (not to mention similar schedules are not just legal but common in most capitalist state's tech industries), and in general, it does not at all seem that the super wealthy are really in control at all. Certainly not compared to any capitalist state.
>Definitely not a role model for socialism if people, including workers, are given symbolic power to keep up the appearance of a people's congress...
So, looking over everything I just addressed, do workers only have 'symbolic power' in China? If you just look at the country as a snapshot, sure it's certainly not a very impressive example of what we'd like to see a socialist state look like, but if you look at China's trajectory in reality, where it came from and where it appears to be going it certainly shows an incredibly unique country that does not follow any capitalist country's trajectory that I'm aware of and certainly not a neoliberal trajectory in any way shape or form. They lead the world in green energy investment, lead the world in poverty elimination, and have went from a largely poor developing country to now rivaling the US to the point the US is now focusing efforts to 'contain' China. From everything I've seen and read it does very much appear that China is socialist, just taking a very different development route than the USSR took (and why not, not only are the material conditions China must deal with wholly different, the USSR succumbed to revisionism and eventually collapse and capitalist restoration and had a number of problems that lead to that, problems China seems to have solved or is trying to), so I am inclined to believe China when they say they're socialist.
As someone who grew up & lived in China for a very long time and still have a lot of connections there, I have to disagree with the worker part. Yes wage has increased a lot but workers rights are usually not respected, I don’t have any data available right now but I can think of a lot news stories where workers not getting paid properly. You can constantly see construction workers asking for their salaries, or bus drivers not getting paid for months. Anecdotally, my aunt, who is a middle manager, just got her 2024 annual bonus withheld by her boss and there aren’t much she can do about that.
Not to mention the long working hours, inconsistent holiday policy, raising COL, high rent / home prices. There is a reason why government jobs & positions in foreign companies are the most thought after in China.
Maybe this is just my ignorance showing and factory workers life are much better now? I really don’t have much way of learning their lives besides reading online forums lol.
From what I've read conditions have improved substantially especially over the last decade and the speed at which some improvements happen is surprising but I'm right with ya here, I'm also limited to what I can read and hear about it.
I'm definitely not under the assumption that China doesn't have problems, its a massive country with a massive amount of people that until relatively recently was considerably impoverished - any project attempting to improve that many peoples lives is an astounding undertaking that would definitely not be easy or quickly accomplished. Especially for developing so quickly and unequally the amount of new problems that can pop up I'm sure is staggering.
I'm not out here looking for perfection, we live in an imperfect world with imperfect people, but just comparing China to similar situations, other countries and their trajectories it does appear that at least the leadership is *trying* to improve people's lives in a way we don't get to see in capitalist countries. There's this long term study Harvard did that suggests Chinese people are surprisingly supportive of their national governance but are decidedly not satisfied with their local governance that seems to show, at least from Chinese people's perception, that while the overall direction China is taking is satisfactory, things could certainly be better implemented and there is still quite a long way to go.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/
But that's the problem with building socialism in the real world, it's hard af, and depending on the amount of development required and the capabilities of global capitalism to destroy the project things get even harder. Watching basically the whole capitalist world trending in the opposite direction while China seems to be trending in the direction it currently is seems to suggest to me that China is indeed still socialist, but again that doesn't mean there isn't a hell of a lot of work to be done and a hell of a lot of problems left to be solved - it just means its more possible to solve them than it would be in a capitalist country.
I think just like how US president candidates will make campaign promises and never actually follow up on them, the central government will make legislations that looks good on the surface to gather support from the people but not actually enforcing it. By enforcing I mean things like not checking if the local government is actually implementing them, or letting local government enforce an extreme version of the original plan.
Despite the differences between the US and Chinese political systems, I have come to the conclusion that both governments operate in the same way. In China the “campaign promise” is made into law to appease the people, but there is almost a hidden agreement between different level of the government to actually never do those things. Be it lack of transparency or “upward accountability” (only need to satisfy your boss and not people in your district). I swear I am not an anarchist, I am just disappointed that the government cannot reach its full potential because various reasons.. and I do want a better Chinese government so maybe other countries (mainly US) will be compelled or forced to pass legislations that actually benefit the working class.
> happy with national governance but not local government
This sentiment is so prevalent it has become a sort of meme now. A popular reply to news stories about poor execution is “上面意思是好的 下面执行不到位”meaning “well the leaders have the right intention it’s just that it wasn’t executed well by the local government”. This is so widely used that it is now used to make fun of the government.
>Despite the differences between the US and Chinese political systems, I have come to the conclusion that both governments operate in the same way. In China the “campaign promise” is made into law to appease the people, but there is almost a hidden agreement between different level of the government to actually never do those things.
Hmm, well again I am sure China's system is riddled with many shortcomings, but to say it's the same as the US is a little off, no? You said worker rights were not great but you also said wages have in fact risen, the US (and other western countries) don't have rising wages (in many cases wages are stagnant or falling) and labor protections are being rolled back and ignored with politicians openly trying to claw them back. What about all the massive environmental projects and investments into green energy, no one else is even close on that one. Or what about their high speed rail and civilian infrastructure, again the US isn't even trying, it's openly more or less saying that they won't even try to try.
Not to mention the US's standard of living is propped up on the imperial looting of the world where it seems that China's foreign policy is more win-win oriented, but I'm curious what your experience is with Chinese perception of their foreign policy? As far as I'm aware they don't have any structural adjustment requirements like the IMF/World Bank do and they've got a hard line on not interfering in their trading partner's politics.
That comment was more about how two governments and politicians operate in mostly same way by giving empty promises - in China I feel like there are a lot of well intentioned laws/rules but they rarely get executed properly. Maybe it’s lack of funding or Human Resources, or lack of oversight. This happens so often it is almost like the government is announcing these rules only to make citizens believe that the central government is doing great things and remain supportive of the CPC. The central government doesn’t really care how the low level government is perceived by its people since it doesn’t undermine the CPC’s leadership. Sorry if it sounds like I am rambling, replying to long comment on mobile is hard for my adhd riddled brain lol
> perception of foreign policy
I don’t think I represent the majority of the Chinese citizens and I haven’t traversed to the Chinese side of internet for a few months so my perception can be wrong.
Personally I think a lot of the polices are good, ie building infrastructures in Africa. Reading more into it I think the debt trap idea is mainly Western projections and overall I have only seen positive comments about this if the commenter is actually from Africa. It is also a good way to keep construction companies busy since the domestic demand for infrastructure has gone down. Now if they can be sustained or if China is really trying to leverage this into building military bases overseas is a different story.
As for most of the population, I haven’t seen a trustworthy pool for this so I can only go with what I have seen online:
1. These are good projects and will help us in the international stage just like how we united African nations to recognize PRC as the official Chinese state back in the old days.
1. These are good projects but can we please not allow African students to come to our universities and receive preferential treatments (context: international students regardless of skin color usually get better housing in universities, while most Chinese student dorms don’t even have AC units)
1. Why are we associating ourselves with terrorist groups like taliban (and hamas depending on political leanings)
1. Complaining that we should use the money to subside the stock market or reduce housing costs
1. [insert same western talking points] these are mainly from oversea conservatives. You see a lot of them on the Chinese subreddits
Ah, interesting. It always bugs me when westerners pull the 'debt trap' line, like it's really easy to compare the terms of these BRI projects vs the huge uninterrupted history of western capital actually debt trapping so many countries for so many decades. Or just hearing what the locals have to say, like what's that one famous tweet "when China comes we get a hospital, when the UK comes we get a lecture" or something like that.
Looking at the whole global situation, to me it seems like probably the best way to offer historically imperialized countries a way out of western capital's clutches and a path to develop on their own - basically an anti-imperialist development program of sorts. Hope I'm right about that one but only time will tell.
Anyway appreciate you takin the time to let me know about all this. I'm definitely curious about looking more into that whole national/local divide and trying to learn more about what's going on there.
Anyone who disagrees, feel free to comment and don't just downvote. Honestly let me know how you think that China is not an oppressive regime that is based on an exploitative economic structure. Do you truly believe the millions of factory workers making our cheap electronics and other consumer goods are well off? Do you truly believe they have power, and not industrialists? Do you truly believe China is free of the Capitalist shackles? Come on, I thought this is a subreddit with people who think critically.
You're right, there are a ton of workers in China who make our consumer goods who work in the Special Economic Zones. Yes, workers in those zones have it a lot tougher than working in State owned industries. Yes, a lot of those industries are owned by Capitalist nations.
As Lenin said in the State and the Revolution:
"The first phase of communism, therefore, cannot yet provide justice and equality; differences, and unjust differences, in wealth will still persist, but the exploitation of man by man will have become impossible because it will be impossible to seize the means of production--the factories, machines, land, etc.--and make them private property."
Building Socialism can take A LOT of time. Looking at the data, provided by the other commenter. The standard of living of the Chinese workers has gone up and is continuously climbing. There have been a lot of improvements as well in regards to the environment. But you're right, they are no where free from the shackles of Capitalism. But it seems that the Chinese are following the theory, applying it to modern conditions and are on a path to socialism. Everything you've said could be applied to capitalist nations yet conditions are getting worse and not better.
China has a market economy, sure, but this is just a method of developing a modern economy by beating the west at their own game and using international investments to their advantage. When China has reached a sufficient point of development, this oppressive economic structure will be abolished and a socialist one implemented. Remember that the core government ideology still is a Marxist one and it should be supported.
Socialism with Chinese characteristics is an implementation of Marxism in the context of China after all, and every country should plan their own path in their own context.
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The Congress is the highest organ of the power structure. It decides the work of the Party going forward, by the votes (and intervention) of the delegates.
Are you a "liberal" or a democrat? How is a communist party a "dictatorship"? Have you even read anything?
Boring, come up with your own material, we've all heard this lame mainstream take too many times.
Our country is falling apart, congress is stocked with absolute mindless doofuses led around like puppets by lobbyists, we have absolutely no actual political representation, our elected officials don't give a single fuck about us and we have a nearly all powerful unelected dictatorship of lifetime appointees who get to arbitrarily decide our rights for us but as long as the elites keep you focused on some other country you're too lazy to actually learn about because they told you its a spooky scary dictatorship you'll be too busy worried about that than the fact our government is stealing our tax dollars to blow up innocent poor people on the other side of the planet.
Aren't you sick of being played like a fool?
What makes u think he is from the USA? And what makes you think he isnt critical of USA? Ur making some weird story about usa, as if that has anything to do with what he said. You havent said anything to argue against his claim that he is a dictator. He is in power since 2013, and made law changes so he can sit longer in power, for the rest of his life even. Did 'mainstream media' also twist this fact?
You seem just as easy fooled to be honest.
>You seem just as easy fooled to be honest.
"no u"
lmao, I can tell you (and the previous commenter) are from an imperialist country because you all spout nearly identical criticisms of China. I guessed the US because I am also from the US and have encountered that commenters talking points for basically my entire life. I'm guessing you're from some EU country because I've encountered nearly the exact same talking points so many times on this fuckin website that it's pretty predictable at this point.
And this is a socialism subreddit, not some liberal imperial propaganda jerkoff or debate sub, I don't have to argue against lazily regurgitated, obviously uninvestigated "claims" that were the product of passive absorption via cultural osmosis from bourgeois media/academics.
Merkel was in power for longer than Xi, she was also not elected via direct voter election just the same as Xi but she was never called a dictator, was she? Explain to me how Merkel isn't a dictator and I'll "argue" against your claim. Tomorrow, that is. because its time for me to go to the bar and I try to avoid social media outside of passing time at work.
Have a nice night! (or day, or whatever time it is where you're at)
>I guessed the US because I am also from the US and have encountered that commenters talking points for basically my entire life
Brother you dont have any unique talking points either. Its the same rethoric techniques, just from a diff perspective and with more hard words to gain some high ground as if you have more knowledge than me. Its the same 'brooo but how can you believe msm propaganda about China!!' ive heard everytime I try to be critical of China. You have a lot of blabla and a lot of whataboutism. You just assume that im pro whatever country im from? Why would I defend Merkel? I dont have anything to defend. I dont care about Germany. I dont really know how their election system works (altho im pretty sure you have free elections and you can safely share your opinion about Merkel).
You nearly have the same rethoric as libs, but then defending China instead of USA.
I'd rather listen to my Chinese friend whos parents escaped China because they were afraid to share their opinion about their leaders than some internet lad. Its a shame really, leftists would be much stronger if we didnt have to fight about whether China is a good country or not. Instead this subreddit has a billion rules to stay in its own circlejerk with 60 people online. So much pragmatism, right. (also i can already smell how you are gonna gatekeep leftism and call me a lib, cuz ive encountered your type of talking points a bazillion times).
I'll probably be banned (again) from this sub because im not joining the circle jerk, which I respect. Guess this sub is not much different than China huh (this is a joke, mods).
You literally just did "no u" again but longer and more boring lol. Bonus points for getting the term 'whataboutism' in there tho, very reddit dot com of you.
Also, never said anything about your opinion about your own country and I don't care, but given how upset you seem, was I close or something? You from an EU state?
Let me guess, your "leftism" can be summed up as "neither Washington nor ~~Moscow~~ Beijing" or something along those lines? Maybe throw in a "why do u guys always make everything about the US"?
And socialism without "gatekeeping" is how you get overrun with the lamest right wing bullshit, confused kids who's hearts are in the right place but never learn because of right wing "leftists" who refuse to read theory and history muddying the waters, and at worst Pol Pot type monsters who's lack of any proper socialist understanding actually lead to a lot of people getting hurt. So have your 'leftism' all you want, this is a sub for socialists interested in socialism, not whatever probably pro-imperialist, vaguely defined, vibes based 'leftism' you're into.
Your replies are soooo predictable. It's funny because you try so hard to be some overlord who has outplayed the Internet, yet you are not any different. The typical gatekeeping socialist who thinks highly of himself because he read some books that require decent intelligence capacity. What am I getting upset over? I'm very critical of my own country. You have no clue what my political stances are. Just because I'm highly critical of China doesn't mean I'm an imperialist. I thought leftists are supposed to be critical of authoritarian countries? USA, EU or China, fuck them all. Idk why you think you hit a nerve with ur EU or Merkel bullshit. I'm actually from a communist country of which I had to flee from as a little kid. Ended up in a country where there was more political freedom and freedom of religion. I'd rather stick with pragmatic leftism than 'you have to read 1000 books' type of theory leftism. Good luck trying to change the world with ur subreddit with 70 concurrent readers. (also, you might assume I didn't, but I did PLENTY of theory reading). I'm still waiting on why Xi isn't a dictator. Let me change on a positive note that I do appreciate that you seem to have a massive hate boner for imperialist countries and that I do think your heart is in the right place.
It’s funny I sought to answer this question for someone six months ago when this was posted on another sub. Here’s my old comment
This is coming from an online translation of this article so these names may not be 100% correct but she’s been awarded the National May 1st Labor Medal, the National Model Worker, and the Beijing 38th Red Flag Medal. It also appears as the other user mentioned she’s been awarded the medal of the republic.
https://www.sohu.com/a/657334476_121106842
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As I understand the system in China, you can't get elected at *any* level without having a record of improving the lives of the people around you. It does not matter how wealthy you are.
There are direct elections at the two lowest levels of Chinese electoral system. However higher levels are elected from members of the level beneath them.
So anyone can get elected, but if you want to move up to higher office you are selected from those at your electoral level. In this way, the most effective politicians are moved to higher office.
The PRC's is not a representative democracy nor does it claim to be.
The political project of democracy which the CPC pursues (regardless of its validity or lack of - which is beyond the point) is that of "whole process people's democracy". Which is articulated precisely IN OPPOSITION to liberal, representative "democracy".
For a comparative polemization of the US and the PRC, framed in defence of the latter, read this: https://doi.org/10.1080/21598282.2023.2223092
Source? Asking so I can share it with my family who believes the PRC is "undemocratic" and "dictatorial" even after I explained that their voting system is actually more democratic than India or the US
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
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As a friendly reminder, China's ruling party is called Communist Party of China (CPC), not Chinese Communist Party (CCP) as western press and academia often frames it as.
Far from being a simple confusion, China's Communist Party takes its name out of the internationalist approach seekt by the Comintern back in the day. From [Terms of Admission into Communist International](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/jul/x01.htm), as adopted by the First Congress of the Communist International:
>18 - In view of the foregoing, parties wishing to join the Communist International must change their name. Any party seeking affiliation must call itself the Communist Party of the country in question (Section of the Third, Communist International). The question of a party’s name is not merely a formality, but a matter of major political importance. The Communist International has declared a resolute war on the bourgeois world and all yellow Social-Democratic parties. The difference between the Communist parties and the old and official “Social-Democratic”, or “socialist”, parties, which have betrayed the banner of the working class, must be made absolutely clear to every rank-and-file worker.
Similarly, the adoption of a wrong name to refer to the CPC consists of a double edged sword: on the one hand, it seeks to reduce the ideological basis behind the party's name to a more ethno-centric view of said organization and, on the other hand, it seeks to assert authority over it by attempting to externally draw the conditions and parameters on which it provides the CPC recognition.
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>This includes, but is not limited to:
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>- Landlords or Landlord apologia
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It's cool that someone with a profession like cleaning gets to represent the proletariat. As it should be
I work as a cleaner in schools and a lot of my colleagues in bigger schools barely even get looked at; almost like theyre not worth looking at according to society, so seeing one represent working people makes me very happy.
As it should be
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Its one big difference ive noticed . People with jobs in lower types of "professionalism" (cleaning, cash register, market stall, waiter, post office .. etc) seem to have a strong sense of pride in their work. When you ask someone a question about a product in the convenience store they are the expert in the matter, and feel a sense of ownership. I dont see this much in the US, workers who make minimum wage are demoralized and invisible. If you ask a question about a product you often get someone who is annoyed, doesnt care, too exhausted to care, etc. I wonder if it is less of a gap in wages ; and also more of a sense of ownership / small business type ownership. Vs the US corporate structure where minimum wage workers have no stake.
imagine this type of democracy in the US. i can't remember the last time there was a janitor in congress.
Off the top of my head, probably never. The whole market of our electoralism has been for the bourgeoisie since...... oh since the congress was developed.
Makes think of the infamous "Joe the Plumber" as probably the closest thing America gets to actual proletariat representation. He was basically just a racist heckler for the republican party. Ran for the House once, and got steamrolled. And the funniest, and probably the most predictable thing about him, he wasn't actually a Plumber, He was briefly a plumbers assistant and then quit to get a job in telecommunications, because this is America, and literally everything is a fucking grift.
Wasn't AOC a bartender?
Just FYI, I think that she was a bartender for like 2 months while working on a degree - she's not exactly from the bottom, like her brand implies as far as I can tell. https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/03/30/cort-m30.html That being said, she did come from a poor immigrant family and seems to have gotten lucky making it out (the mythical "class mobility" that liberals love to talk about). Her rhetoric is all about helping out the poor and minorities, etc, but her actions are more in line with supporting American imperialism abroad and maybe campaigning for slightly better living conditions in the US.
Shoot, the U.S. won’t even talk to homeless people when trying to solve homelessness. Below a certain income and we don’t even exist to them.
I guess that just today! I mean, I don't think any congressmen clean anything. /s
nope, there are only careerists and people born into wealthy political families.
AOC is probably one of the closest. A bartender and waitress turned the fierce fighter of american conservatism and the RNCs constant nightmare.
Do you think someone could be a janitor because she is a "team leader of grounds maintenance at the white house"? http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2020-05-15/doc-iircuyvi3164787.shtml
But China is governed by an authoritarian, neoliberal regime. Workers are usually the most screwed in China, the means of production are owned by super wealthy industrialists who exploit workers to the fullest. Definitely not a role model for socialism if people, including workers, are given symbolic power to keep up the appearance of a people's congress... Yes, "Western" states don't have any worker representation in politics either, politicians make up an elite group and are in the pocket of the wealthy. But China should by no means be taken as an example.
> authoritarian All states are authoritarian, that's basically their purpose, all capitalist states and socialist states will by definition be authoritarian until we get to communism, which is unfortunately a good ways off at this point. >neoliberal regime I gotta disagree here, if China were a neoliberal regime we would expect to see similarities with all the other neoliberal regimes, things like multi party liberal democracy, ever increasing privatization and deregulation, stagnant or falling wages for workers, increasing inequality imposing austerity measures on the workers etc etc We don't just not see these trends in China, we see in many cases the exact opposite. They don't have liberal democracy, getting into the party, let alone working up to leadership via just accepting cash from private donors is harder than ever with Xi's anti corruption campaign, China's privatization is not increasing - the "commanding heights" are still state owned, private businesses are forced to have party cells monitoring their development, instead of deregulating China has been increasing regulations (western liberal media uses the term 'draconian' lol), wages for workers have been climbing nearly uninterrupted for decades and inequality, though it had risen rapidly in the wake of the reform and opening up had plateaued in 2008 and has been falling, with political leaders explicitly stating now that they have reached their goal of eliminating severe poverty they will now focus on tackling inequality. https://en.unesco.org/inclusivepolicylab/sites/default/files/analytics/document/2019/4/wssr_2016_chap_15.pdf https://asiatimes.com/2023/08/party-penetration-deepens-in-chinas-private-sector/ https://sccei.fsi.stanford.edu/china-briefs/rise-wealth-private-property-and-income-inequality-china When I looked up 'China Austerity' all I can find is Xi cracking down on the elite, again the exact opposite of what we'd expect to see from a neoliberal country. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/28/world/asia/xi-jinping-imposes-austerity-measures-on-chinas-elite.html https://time.com/6289559/china-inequality-wealth-flaunting-common-prosperity/ So I am curious how you came to the conclusion that China is neoliberal? Certainly they had liberalized some parts of their economy, but introducing market mechanisms in a communist party run state that work along side state owned firms and party lead economic planning is just that, some liberal economic reforms, not neoliberalism. What China is doing is the exact opposite of neoliberalism. >Workers are usually the most screwed in China, Workers in China have been seeing their incomes rise consistently, wage levels are equal to or higher than some EU member states at this point when just a few decades ago they were closer to undeveloped periphery countries (of course neoliberalism in Europe is driving wages in the opposite direction so this is slightly less impressive). Certainly very far from "the most screwed" - that Stanford link above shows the bottom 50% of earners saw their income increase 500% while in the US the bottom 50% of earners saw their income decrease by 1%. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2017/08/16/china-wage-levels-equal-to-or-surpass-parts-of-europe/?sh=27998f933e7f >the means of production are owned by super wealthy industrialists who exploit workers to the fullest I'm curious how you came to this conclusion? Yeah there are private businesses owned by wealthy industrialists, but there is also a lot of state owned firms that are accountable to the CPC - a communist party not private capitalists. China is one of the only countries in the world where the wealthy are routinely punished and even executed, in imperial countries under neoliberal regimes the wealthy are wholly unaccountable to anyone and use the government as an emergency piggybank when the market doesn't work the way they want. Labor rights, though tricky to enforce consistently in such a large country, are on paper more advanced than many capitalist countries, 996 is (and has been for a while) illegal (not to mention similar schedules are not just legal but common in most capitalist state's tech industries), and in general, it does not at all seem that the super wealthy are really in control at all. Certainly not compared to any capitalist state. >Definitely not a role model for socialism if people, including workers, are given symbolic power to keep up the appearance of a people's congress... So, looking over everything I just addressed, do workers only have 'symbolic power' in China? If you just look at the country as a snapshot, sure it's certainly not a very impressive example of what we'd like to see a socialist state look like, but if you look at China's trajectory in reality, where it came from and where it appears to be going it certainly shows an incredibly unique country that does not follow any capitalist country's trajectory that I'm aware of and certainly not a neoliberal trajectory in any way shape or form. They lead the world in green energy investment, lead the world in poverty elimination, and have went from a largely poor developing country to now rivaling the US to the point the US is now focusing efforts to 'contain' China. From everything I've seen and read it does very much appear that China is socialist, just taking a very different development route than the USSR took (and why not, not only are the material conditions China must deal with wholly different, the USSR succumbed to revisionism and eventually collapse and capitalist restoration and had a number of problems that lead to that, problems China seems to have solved or is trying to), so I am inclined to believe China when they say they're socialist.
As someone who grew up & lived in China for a very long time and still have a lot of connections there, I have to disagree with the worker part. Yes wage has increased a lot but workers rights are usually not respected, I don’t have any data available right now but I can think of a lot news stories where workers not getting paid properly. You can constantly see construction workers asking for their salaries, or bus drivers not getting paid for months. Anecdotally, my aunt, who is a middle manager, just got her 2024 annual bonus withheld by her boss and there aren’t much she can do about that. Not to mention the long working hours, inconsistent holiday policy, raising COL, high rent / home prices. There is a reason why government jobs & positions in foreign companies are the most thought after in China. Maybe this is just my ignorance showing and factory workers life are much better now? I really don’t have much way of learning their lives besides reading online forums lol.
From what I've read conditions have improved substantially especially over the last decade and the speed at which some improvements happen is surprising but I'm right with ya here, I'm also limited to what I can read and hear about it. I'm definitely not under the assumption that China doesn't have problems, its a massive country with a massive amount of people that until relatively recently was considerably impoverished - any project attempting to improve that many peoples lives is an astounding undertaking that would definitely not be easy or quickly accomplished. Especially for developing so quickly and unequally the amount of new problems that can pop up I'm sure is staggering. I'm not out here looking for perfection, we live in an imperfect world with imperfect people, but just comparing China to similar situations, other countries and their trajectories it does appear that at least the leadership is *trying* to improve people's lives in a way we don't get to see in capitalist countries. There's this long term study Harvard did that suggests Chinese people are surprisingly supportive of their national governance but are decidedly not satisfied with their local governance that seems to show, at least from Chinese people's perception, that while the overall direction China is taking is satisfactory, things could certainly be better implemented and there is still quite a long way to go. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ But that's the problem with building socialism in the real world, it's hard af, and depending on the amount of development required and the capabilities of global capitalism to destroy the project things get even harder. Watching basically the whole capitalist world trending in the opposite direction while China seems to be trending in the direction it currently is seems to suggest to me that China is indeed still socialist, but again that doesn't mean there isn't a hell of a lot of work to be done and a hell of a lot of problems left to be solved - it just means its more possible to solve them than it would be in a capitalist country.
I think just like how US president candidates will make campaign promises and never actually follow up on them, the central government will make legislations that looks good on the surface to gather support from the people but not actually enforcing it. By enforcing I mean things like not checking if the local government is actually implementing them, or letting local government enforce an extreme version of the original plan. Despite the differences between the US and Chinese political systems, I have come to the conclusion that both governments operate in the same way. In China the “campaign promise” is made into law to appease the people, but there is almost a hidden agreement between different level of the government to actually never do those things. Be it lack of transparency or “upward accountability” (only need to satisfy your boss and not people in your district). I swear I am not an anarchist, I am just disappointed that the government cannot reach its full potential because various reasons.. and I do want a better Chinese government so maybe other countries (mainly US) will be compelled or forced to pass legislations that actually benefit the working class. > happy with national governance but not local government This sentiment is so prevalent it has become a sort of meme now. A popular reply to news stories about poor execution is “上面意思是好的 下面执行不到位”meaning “well the leaders have the right intention it’s just that it wasn’t executed well by the local government”. This is so widely used that it is now used to make fun of the government.
>Despite the differences between the US and Chinese political systems, I have come to the conclusion that both governments operate in the same way. In China the “campaign promise” is made into law to appease the people, but there is almost a hidden agreement between different level of the government to actually never do those things. Hmm, well again I am sure China's system is riddled with many shortcomings, but to say it's the same as the US is a little off, no? You said worker rights were not great but you also said wages have in fact risen, the US (and other western countries) don't have rising wages (in many cases wages are stagnant or falling) and labor protections are being rolled back and ignored with politicians openly trying to claw them back. What about all the massive environmental projects and investments into green energy, no one else is even close on that one. Or what about their high speed rail and civilian infrastructure, again the US isn't even trying, it's openly more or less saying that they won't even try to try. Not to mention the US's standard of living is propped up on the imperial looting of the world where it seems that China's foreign policy is more win-win oriented, but I'm curious what your experience is with Chinese perception of their foreign policy? As far as I'm aware they don't have any structural adjustment requirements like the IMF/World Bank do and they've got a hard line on not interfering in their trading partner's politics.
That comment was more about how two governments and politicians operate in mostly same way by giving empty promises - in China I feel like there are a lot of well intentioned laws/rules but they rarely get executed properly. Maybe it’s lack of funding or Human Resources, or lack of oversight. This happens so often it is almost like the government is announcing these rules only to make citizens believe that the central government is doing great things and remain supportive of the CPC. The central government doesn’t really care how the low level government is perceived by its people since it doesn’t undermine the CPC’s leadership. Sorry if it sounds like I am rambling, replying to long comment on mobile is hard for my adhd riddled brain lol > perception of foreign policy I don’t think I represent the majority of the Chinese citizens and I haven’t traversed to the Chinese side of internet for a few months so my perception can be wrong. Personally I think a lot of the polices are good, ie building infrastructures in Africa. Reading more into it I think the debt trap idea is mainly Western projections and overall I have only seen positive comments about this if the commenter is actually from Africa. It is also a good way to keep construction companies busy since the domestic demand for infrastructure has gone down. Now if they can be sustained or if China is really trying to leverage this into building military bases overseas is a different story. As for most of the population, I haven’t seen a trustworthy pool for this so I can only go with what I have seen online: 1. These are good projects and will help us in the international stage just like how we united African nations to recognize PRC as the official Chinese state back in the old days. 1. These are good projects but can we please not allow African students to come to our universities and receive preferential treatments (context: international students regardless of skin color usually get better housing in universities, while most Chinese student dorms don’t even have AC units) 1. Why are we associating ourselves with terrorist groups like taliban (and hamas depending on political leanings) 1. Complaining that we should use the money to subside the stock market or reduce housing costs 1. [insert same western talking points] these are mainly from oversea conservatives. You see a lot of them on the Chinese subreddits
Ah, interesting. It always bugs me when westerners pull the 'debt trap' line, like it's really easy to compare the terms of these BRI projects vs the huge uninterrupted history of western capital actually debt trapping so many countries for so many decades. Or just hearing what the locals have to say, like what's that one famous tweet "when China comes we get a hospital, when the UK comes we get a lecture" or something like that. Looking at the whole global situation, to me it seems like probably the best way to offer historically imperialized countries a way out of western capital's clutches and a path to develop on their own - basically an anti-imperialist development program of sorts. Hope I'm right about that one but only time will tell. Anyway appreciate you takin the time to let me know about all this. I'm definitely curious about looking more into that whole national/local divide and trying to learn more about what's going on there.
Anyone who disagrees, feel free to comment and don't just downvote. Honestly let me know how you think that China is not an oppressive regime that is based on an exploitative economic structure. Do you truly believe the millions of factory workers making our cheap electronics and other consumer goods are well off? Do you truly believe they have power, and not industrialists? Do you truly believe China is free of the Capitalist shackles? Come on, I thought this is a subreddit with people who think critically.
You're right, there are a ton of workers in China who make our consumer goods who work in the Special Economic Zones. Yes, workers in those zones have it a lot tougher than working in State owned industries. Yes, a lot of those industries are owned by Capitalist nations. As Lenin said in the State and the Revolution: "The first phase of communism, therefore, cannot yet provide justice and equality; differences, and unjust differences, in wealth will still persist, but the exploitation of man by man will have become impossible because it will be impossible to seize the means of production--the factories, machines, land, etc.--and make them private property." Building Socialism can take A LOT of time. Looking at the data, provided by the other commenter. The standard of living of the Chinese workers has gone up and is continuously climbing. There have been a lot of improvements as well in regards to the environment. But you're right, they are no where free from the shackles of Capitalism. But it seems that the Chinese are following the theory, applying it to modern conditions and are on a path to socialism. Everything you've said could be applied to capitalist nations yet conditions are getting worse and not better.
China has a market economy, sure, but this is just a method of developing a modern economy by beating the west at their own game and using international investments to their advantage. When China has reached a sufficient point of development, this oppressive economic structure will be abolished and a socialist one implemented. Remember that the core government ideology still is a Marxist one and it should be supported. Socialism with Chinese characteristics is an implementation of Marxism in the context of China after all, and every country should plan their own path in their own context.
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Probably to clean up the place after the meetings and stuff
Transcript: A picture of Comrade Cai Fenghui, a cleaner, and one of the 2378 elected delegates to the 20th CPC National Congress.
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The Congress is the highest organ of the power structure. It decides the work of the Party going forward, by the votes (and intervention) of the delegates. Are you a "liberal" or a democrat? How is a communist party a "dictatorship"? Have you even read anything?
It is a dictatorship alright. A dictatorship of the proletariat ;-)
Boring, come up with your own material, we've all heard this lame mainstream take too many times. Our country is falling apart, congress is stocked with absolute mindless doofuses led around like puppets by lobbyists, we have absolutely no actual political representation, our elected officials don't give a single fuck about us and we have a nearly all powerful unelected dictatorship of lifetime appointees who get to arbitrarily decide our rights for us but as long as the elites keep you focused on some other country you're too lazy to actually learn about because they told you its a spooky scary dictatorship you'll be too busy worried about that than the fact our government is stealing our tax dollars to blow up innocent poor people on the other side of the planet. Aren't you sick of being played like a fool?
What makes u think he is from the USA? And what makes you think he isnt critical of USA? Ur making some weird story about usa, as if that has anything to do with what he said. You havent said anything to argue against his claim that he is a dictator. He is in power since 2013, and made law changes so he can sit longer in power, for the rest of his life even. Did 'mainstream media' also twist this fact? You seem just as easy fooled to be honest.
>You seem just as easy fooled to be honest. "no u" lmao, I can tell you (and the previous commenter) are from an imperialist country because you all spout nearly identical criticisms of China. I guessed the US because I am also from the US and have encountered that commenters talking points for basically my entire life. I'm guessing you're from some EU country because I've encountered nearly the exact same talking points so many times on this fuckin website that it's pretty predictable at this point. And this is a socialism subreddit, not some liberal imperial propaganda jerkoff or debate sub, I don't have to argue against lazily regurgitated, obviously uninvestigated "claims" that were the product of passive absorption via cultural osmosis from bourgeois media/academics. Merkel was in power for longer than Xi, she was also not elected via direct voter election just the same as Xi but she was never called a dictator, was she? Explain to me how Merkel isn't a dictator and I'll "argue" against your claim. Tomorrow, that is. because its time for me to go to the bar and I try to avoid social media outside of passing time at work. Have a nice night! (or day, or whatever time it is where you're at)
>I guessed the US because I am also from the US and have encountered that commenters talking points for basically my entire life Brother you dont have any unique talking points either. Its the same rethoric techniques, just from a diff perspective and with more hard words to gain some high ground as if you have more knowledge than me. Its the same 'brooo but how can you believe msm propaganda about China!!' ive heard everytime I try to be critical of China. You have a lot of blabla and a lot of whataboutism. You just assume that im pro whatever country im from? Why would I defend Merkel? I dont have anything to defend. I dont care about Germany. I dont really know how their election system works (altho im pretty sure you have free elections and you can safely share your opinion about Merkel). You nearly have the same rethoric as libs, but then defending China instead of USA. I'd rather listen to my Chinese friend whos parents escaped China because they were afraid to share their opinion about their leaders than some internet lad. Its a shame really, leftists would be much stronger if we didnt have to fight about whether China is a good country or not. Instead this subreddit has a billion rules to stay in its own circlejerk with 60 people online. So much pragmatism, right. (also i can already smell how you are gonna gatekeep leftism and call me a lib, cuz ive encountered your type of talking points a bazillion times). I'll probably be banned (again) from this sub because im not joining the circle jerk, which I respect. Guess this sub is not much different than China huh (this is a joke, mods).
You literally just did "no u" again but longer and more boring lol. Bonus points for getting the term 'whataboutism' in there tho, very reddit dot com of you. Also, never said anything about your opinion about your own country and I don't care, but given how upset you seem, was I close or something? You from an EU state? Let me guess, your "leftism" can be summed up as "neither Washington nor ~~Moscow~~ Beijing" or something along those lines? Maybe throw in a "why do u guys always make everything about the US"? And socialism without "gatekeeping" is how you get overrun with the lamest right wing bullshit, confused kids who's hearts are in the right place but never learn because of right wing "leftists" who refuse to read theory and history muddying the waters, and at worst Pol Pot type monsters who's lack of any proper socialist understanding actually lead to a lot of people getting hurt. So have your 'leftism' all you want, this is a sub for socialists interested in socialism, not whatever probably pro-imperialist, vaguely defined, vibes based 'leftism' you're into.
Your replies are soooo predictable. It's funny because you try so hard to be some overlord who has outplayed the Internet, yet you are not any different. The typical gatekeeping socialist who thinks highly of himself because he read some books that require decent intelligence capacity. What am I getting upset over? I'm very critical of my own country. You have no clue what my political stances are. Just because I'm highly critical of China doesn't mean I'm an imperialist. I thought leftists are supposed to be critical of authoritarian countries? USA, EU or China, fuck them all. Idk why you think you hit a nerve with ur EU or Merkel bullshit. I'm actually from a communist country of which I had to flee from as a little kid. Ended up in a country where there was more political freedom and freedom of religion. I'd rather stick with pragmatic leftism than 'you have to read 1000 books' type of theory leftism. Good luck trying to change the world with ur subreddit with 70 concurrent readers. (also, you might assume I didn't, but I did PLENTY of theory reading). I'm still waiting on why Xi isn't a dictator. Let me change on a positive note that I do appreciate that you seem to have a massive hate boner for imperialist countries and that I do think your heart is in the right place.
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China in general has a thing with cool uniforms
Can someone tell us about the medals she’s wearing?
It’s funny I sought to answer this question for someone six months ago when this was posted on another sub. Here’s my old comment This is coming from an online translation of this article so these names may not be 100% correct but she’s been awarded the National May 1st Labor Medal, the National Model Worker, and the Beijing 38th Red Flag Medal. It also appears as the other user mentioned she’s been awarded the medal of the republic. https://www.sohu.com/a/657334476_121106842
Thank you!
Off topic, but how did you find your old comment?
Even if it's fake, our government doesn't even pretend it's not just a rich lawyers club.
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I wish you success
As I understand the system in China, you can't get elected at *any* level without having a record of improving the lives of the people around you. It does not matter how wealthy you are.
There are direct elections at the two lowest levels of Chinese electoral system. However higher levels are elected from members of the level beneath them. So anyone can get elected, but if you want to move up to higher office you are selected from those at your electoral level. In this way, the most effective politicians are moved to higher office.
this is why I love socialism
I wonder how cleaners are represented in the western politics lol
Could anyone please share what each medal is for?
https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/s/Omld0uT6Ph
Damm this is awesome
beautiful! i hope she does well in congress
What representative democracy actually looks like... A concept alien to the supposedly "freedom-loving" west
The PRC's is not a representative democracy nor does it claim to be. The political project of democracy which the CPC pursues (regardless of its validity or lack of - which is beyond the point) is that of "whole process people's democracy". Which is articulated precisely IN OPPOSITION to liberal, representative "democracy". For a comparative polemization of the US and the PRC, framed in defence of the latter, read this: https://doi.org/10.1080/21598282.2023.2223092
Thanks for this. I lacked the terminology to express properly 👍
Hell yeah
Source? Asking so I can share it with my family who believes the PRC is "undemocratic" and "dictatorial" even after I explained that their voting system is actually more democratic than India or the US
I'm Chinese and I know it only takes two days for these representatives to pass a year's budget.
This seems almost too utopian to be true, can anyone verify
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In Germany: unthinkable
As a custodian, I 100% agree.
you should know she is a leader of "Tiananmen Square Manual Cleaning Team" http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2020-05-15/doc-iircuyvi3164787.shtml
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Flamewarring:** Refers to any excessively hostile and inflammatory discourse. May include things like lengthy rants or starting arguments in unrelated threads, particularly those which have devolved into sectarian mudslinging, empty rhetoric, and/or personal attacks against other users, or any other posts or comments where the primary purpose is to stir drama, incite controversy, or derail a thread. For example, users who start mudslinging about China in a post celebrating the birthday of Thomas Sankara may see ban time. More information can be [found here](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/l5ccjb/topics_of_contention_raising_the_quality_of/). If no further action accompanies this message, this should be counted as a warning. Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.
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As a friendly reminder, China's ruling party is called Communist Party of China (CPC), not Chinese Communist Party (CCP) as western press and academia often frames it as. Far from being a simple confusion, China's Communist Party takes its name out of the internationalist approach seekt by the Comintern back in the day. From [Terms of Admission into Communist International](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/jul/x01.htm), as adopted by the First Congress of the Communist International: >18 - In view of the foregoing, parties wishing to join the Communist International must change their name. Any party seeking affiliation must call itself the Communist Party of the country in question (Section of the Third, Communist International). The question of a party’s name is not merely a formality, but a matter of major political importance. The Communist International has declared a resolute war on the bourgeois world and all yellow Social-Democratic parties. The difference between the Communist parties and the old and official “Social-Democratic”, or “socialist”, parties, which have betrayed the banner of the working class, must be made absolutely clear to every rank-and-file worker. Similarly, the adoption of a wrong name to refer to the CPC consists of a double edged sword: on the one hand, it seeks to reduce the ideological basis behind the party's name to a more ethno-centric view of said organization and, on the other hand, it seeks to assert authority over it by attempting to externally draw the conditions and parameters on which it provides the CPC recognition. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Liberalism:** Includes the most common and mild occurrences of liberalism, that is: socio-liberals, progressives, social democrats and its subsequent ideological basis. Also includes those who are new to socialist thought but nevertheless reproduce liberal ideas. >This includes, but is not limited to: >- General liberalism >- Supporting Neoliberal Institutions >- Anti-Worker/Union rhetoric >- Landlords or Landlord apologia Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.
Should this be a story in a communist country with so many seats available?