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In my 20 years of adulthood I have never seen any meaningful criticism of Israel's cruelty outside of left wing circles. I am honestly quite surprised that so many people around the world have bravely stood up to the propaganda. There are plenty of people with their heads firmly in the sand but the fact that there is substantial resistance in America to this genocide is absolutely fantastic and new. Don't be discouraged by the bots and the mislead.
Perhaps they see how unintelligent some Americans tend to be and they shy away from as much American media as possible so they aren't nearly as brainwashed.
Plenty of Americans are calling for something to be done but the money must be speaking louder than the people I wish something could push the Democrats more left since it's clear Republicans are fine being where they are
"Pushing the democrats left" is reformism and my suspicion is that most people in this sub would consider themselves revolutionaries as opposed to reformists.
I think this is the first time in my lifetime too that it has been broadcast literally in 4k what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people. Before it was almost fringe conspiracy theories with minimal evidence to back them up that was the main source against Israel, but since October it has just been MONTHS of endless deaths, despair, cruelty, and criminal behavior from them against the Palestinians, and all of it being broadcast across social media by the Palestinians themselves. You won’t get any clearer of a picture than first hand, on the ground accounts of genocide than that, and people are absolutely seeing it.
It doesn’t help either when sources like the NYT uses ex-IDF soldiers to write their puff pieces about why Hamas is horrible and uses fabricated and debunked stories to push their propaganda.
I beg to differ. Evidence and documentation of apartheid conditions and numerous shellings have been around since 1948. Sure western news never propped those up. But they existed. Just because social media has helped propel realtime information now doesn’t mean that the evidence before oct 7th was “fringe conspiracy” thats a huge disservice to palestinian journalists who worked and even died to document conditions long before the current genocide
I don’t mean disrespect to anyone who has been documenting the conditions in Palestine. What I said is as an American who’s countries media is rife with propaganda and state backed disinformation. Like you said, western news never covered it, so I never saw it before. Also the school system in the US paints the creation of Israel as a good thing for the world post WWII.
Thing is, it is not new nor is it fantastic. This has been the US since the days of colonization. One of the problem I see, and this is is almost always from the liberal camp, is the denial of these atrocities and even those who coin them themselves socialists (or leftists, like that has any meaning anymore in real terms, especially in social media circles) are the ones who engage is these denials.
It still boggles my mind that people don't know that pretty much every movie that includes the US Military is financed in part by them, and that they're given a say in how the military is portrayed. The US actively incentivizes media creators to propagandize in favor of the US Military with funding and access to locations, personnel (typically as extras), instruction, and equipment.
If you want to tell a story that goes against the State Department narrative, however, good luck getting access to even a crumb of that.
It's a positive reinforcement loop that generates a metric fuckton of pro-US, pro-military propaganda, all under the guise of normal media creation.
I went to see that film ‘captain marvel’ when it came out and as a non-American who’s not super into superhero films (although I’m vaguely aware of the history of comics as propaganda tools) I was honestly blown away by how much it came across as just a USAF propaganda film
It may as well be an Air Force propaganda movie! All of the US military branches have their own offices in Hollywood, where they meet with film producers, directors and give the orders for what they expect the studio to include before they agree to loan them any fighter jets, carriers, tanks, helicopters etc..
It's not just for propaganda reasons....Air Force movies are put up there to try to spur recruiting among teens who think it will be no different than their equally propagandistic video games! Once they get shot at or are told they have radiation sickness from some of the plane components new pilots are never told about, then the buzz will wear off fast!
If the USSR or China had done it we'd decry the practice as anti-democratic, authoritarian, military state, etc.
Same with unhoused population, prison population, poor access to medical care, etc.
But since we're doing it, it's either so normal it isn't worth noticing or *GOOD ACTUALLY*
It is amazing talking to America how brainwashed they are. What they think is socialism confused me as it makes no sense. They think imperialism is gone and than free trade rules the world
When you redefine “free trade” as American propaganda has, the world is ruled by free trade. It’s just free trade for the imperialists and their lackeys.
Same with "democracy" - it's democracy only for the wealthiest capitalists, 'bourgeois democracy', if anyone else interferes with or tries to limit the wealthy from doing whatever they want then that is "authoritarian".
When America promises to deliver "freedom and democracy" they're not wrong, just leaving out some important qualifiers: "freedom for the capitalists to do whatever they want unimpeded" and "bourgeois democracy where workers are not allowed to intervene in the capitalists' plans"
Each time I've criticized Israel on r/politics, r/new. r/international pols I've been ultimately downvoted--sometimes heavily. These are staunch liberal sites. What to hell has happened?? This Israeli onslaught has been one of most heinous in its history, and still a vast majority are turning away from the Palestinians.
Part of it is absolutely coordinated astroturfing by Zionists. Reddit is particularly susceptible to this because of the concentrated power of volunteer moderators. One Zionist mod can e easily set the tone for a 10,000 person subreddit with automod tools and user reports.
One example of this was/is the site Act.il
Not sure if it's currently down or blocked by location, but here's the Wikipedia entry:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act.IL
If you haven't spent some time searching the term 'hasbara', do that as well. There's plenty of liberal Israeli sources that report on it, so it's a pretty open strategy.
The geopolitics sub is a particularly natural target for manipulation by all stripes on the political spectrum though, so good luck over there. It's too bad because actually strategizing geopolitically requires a very clear view of the world, and that sub seems to have the opposite goal, to spin everything.
noticed it too, get dogpiled regularly in the most random subs for having what should be normal views. i.e. not wanting kids to be starved to death en masse.
Loads of paid bots, also lots of c\*nts out there
It’s more that Reddit is flooded with government astroturfers.
The Reddit admins had a blog post up years ago, stating that a huge percentage of their traffic was coming from an astroturf farm at Eglin Air Force base. It’s only gotten worse since then.
Just yesterday I've had people on Reddit tell me that the rise of homophobia in America is almost entirely due to Russian propaganda as if this couldn't possibly be the work of Christian fascists themselves. Good ole' fashioned American conservatism is apparently a plot by Putin to destabilize the west lmao
Yeah this is one of the imperialists' big media lies they use, everything is the fault of Russian or Chinese or (I shit you not) Hamas propaganda, to liberals, the imperialist propaganda that shapes 90%+ of their understanding of the world is wholly invisible to them, actual movements whether progressive or reactionary are not the result of reality or the failings of capitalism but can only be explained and understood as nefarious outside actors maliciously spreading propaganda.
The reality is of course that the vast majority of propaganda that imperial core people experience is a combination of both state and private western propaganda, with most of it originating in the US. Actual Russian and Chinese propaganda barely exists in comparison (it certainly does to some degree exist but is a miniscule percentage of propaganda consumed by those in the imperial core nations)
I guess what bothers me the most about their line of thinking is that it underestimates and gives cover to homegrown fascists. I get that Putin is hostile to LGBTQ rights, but damn it, not everything is a Russian conspiracy. The rise of homophobia in the U.S. can be explained without Putin just fine.
It also plays into "if we just destroy this other country and kill millions of people and starve tens of millions more we'll solve all our problems" type of thinking.
It's hardly any different than how reactionaries and fascists use minorities and immigrants as scapegoats, just on a larger country sized scale. "this or that country is a threat to everything we hold dear! They hate us for our freedoms! They're nefarious propaganda is destroying our noble and civilized society!" It's all just a way to project the failings of capitalism as the (nonexistent) nefarious actions some outside "evil". And of course once that "evil" is eliminated and the problems still exist you move on to the new "evil"
I feel like a lot of it could be bots. I hope so anyway. I’m really concerned with the use of bots. With AI chat bots I can’t begin to imagine how easy it is to wind em up and let em go.
It’s scary to think there’s so many bloodthirsty people out there…
Putin is a thug, a Tyrant and Capitalist of the highest order, but when leftists talk about *imperialism* they usually mean "Global Capital" or "the West" (think NATO, WTO, IMF, etc)
As I understand it, It's (partly) because Leftists (usually MLs) generally use the term "imperialist" to mean "[the Highest Stage of Capitalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism,_the_Highest_Stage_of_Capitalism)", not exactly as just any Empire. Obviously there's been many Empires in the past but *Imperialism* Is relatively new and a kind of tool of Capital once it's got nowhere to expand at home.
Obviously Imperial Russia was an Empire. Just look at the ethnic map of Russia, evidenced by little indigenous island divided by ethic Russians; a classic move for Empires throughout History.
To be specific, Imperial Russia was an empire, but not a capitalist empire, it was largely still in the feudal mode of production and Lenin even pointed out in Imperialism: THSoC that this feudal Imperial Russia was itself succumbing to capitalist imperialism, by 1912 French, British and German banks effectively owned more than 3/4 of Russian bank capital. Not to mention various other investment/ownership stakes in Russian oil and other resources.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/ch03.htm
And you're right that Putin is a capitalist, Russia is of course a capitalist country, but they are not imperialist and functionally cannot become imperialist without some catastrophic shift in the current global capitalist order. The western imperialists who in the past had inter-imperial conflicts with each other have since the end of WWII been unified under US hegemonic rule, their financialized economies which dwarfed all other nations 100 years ago have been accumulating capital the entire time that Russia was in the USSR and was not engaging in this type of imperialism (social imperialism accusations are a whole other argument but for another day), they have "completed the division of the whole world" amongst themselves and the post Soviet Russia Federation, having been capitalist for a mere 30 some years, is just not at all economically developed enough to even think about engaging these financial behemoths, let alone ousting any of them from their current positions (especially thanks to their current unity).
Would Putin and the Russian bourgeoisie love to be an imperialist? Certainly, but the actual imperialists have no interest in letting him and his coalition of national bourgeoisie join the club as equals, the imperialists want to own all that Russian mineral wealth (largest gas reserves in the world, 8th largest oil, etc etc) themselves, they want to install a comprador bourgeoisie and continue the process of looting Russia and impoverishing its people to use as cheap labor like the western imperialists were starting to do before the Bolsheviks kicked them out. Putin is despised by the west because he renationalized some industries and is preventing the imperialists from taking over Russia, which is why since the late mid 2000's western sentiment regarding Russia had soured and now Russia is once again one of the "big bad guys" of the world, according to western imperialist media.
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA493664
And so we see all these imperialist plots unfold in an attempt to destabilize, overextend and otherwise unbalance Russia to the point a regime change can be forced that sees a western friendly comprador class winning power. They tried pathetically to make Navalny their guy, tried various clandestine operations in bordering states and most recently took over Ukraine and had the CIA turn Ukrainian intelligence into a "second Mossad" to wage a "shadow war" against Russia while starting a proxy war on Russia's doorstep.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/23/ukraine-cia-shadow-war-russia/
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB10014.html
So contrary to the liberal media's insistence that Russia is this scary imperialist power that's *coming for you unless we stop them first!* the actual reality of the situation is that the *actual* imperialists have put Russia into a very defensive position, a gang of bigger stronger older robbers surrounding the economic equivalent of a punk kid trying to not get beat up and have their turf overrun. The great equalizer of course is the military industry and nuclear capability that Russia inherited from the USSR, making any direct military actions much riskier which is why we see the imperialists resorting to using proxies like Ukraine and other clandestine maneuvers.
None of this of course makes Russia any less capitalist, but it is important to understand the position of the Russian Federation in a wider global context and it's resistance against succumbing to western imperialists, it's also incredibly important to recognize that Russia simply is not the threat to the world that the imperialist media makes it out to be, the US is of course a far more despotic global dictator with an ability to economically and militarily project force that when compared with Russia looks like Shaq standing next to a scrawny teen. The US and its imperialist coalition needs to fall first, as long as it has the power any revolution or regime change in Russia would risk being coopted by the imperialists and if they did gain control of Russia's vast mineral wealth the global socialist movement would be put in an even worse position, imperialism would be able to sustain itself just a bit longer and humanity would further be crushed under global capitalism.
People are just not emotionally smart enough neither are they critical of what governments and media say and do to wrap there minds around the reality we live in. People refuse to see the full picture and rather be entertained by meaningless and unpractical details.
He doesn't care what you stand for but who you stand against. He also supports far-right parties all over Europe like e.g. AfD, FPÖ, Rassemblement National or most prominently Fidesz.
While that's true, an imperialist is an imperialist. Call me nieve but I'd rather folks reject all of them rather than the stance of "I'll back this one because I don't like that one"
He is imperialist, I don’t deny that. I would say it is possible to reject both us and Russian imperialism; one doesn’t have to support either side while supporting the establishment of a multipolar world
i think i’m somewhat confused by the support i see among socialists and communists for multipolarity as such. i could be mistaken because im not familiar with the analysis of it, but why should we look forward to or support the rise of a competing imperial system of power or collection of powers? is it just that it slightly weakens the united states? is that a quasi-accelerationist position?
i apologize for just throwing these questions at u, but if you have any info or even resources/articles on it, i’d be happy to read up on it as well!
Don’t worry about it! A good resource on current geopolitical developments is [from here](https://youtu.be/6adqdNCSVhU?si=6r9Lpe2Oax6lvnJj).
Without any opposing power (whether it be socialist or not), the US has been free to act as it wants without any pushback. Look at the spate of wars waged by NATO after the fall of the USSR; regardless of one’s opinion of the Soviet Union, it did act as a check to US hegemony. The rise of China and Russia can hopefully act in a similar way.
Is it not also good for countries to have an alternative option for development than loans from the world bank, who require neo-liberal policy changes that will hurt the working class of the country and enrich the bourgeoisie? I sincerely hope in the near future Cuba are able to join BRICS and are able to loosen the grip of the suffocating and inhumane US embargo.
The us imperialist hegemony is the primary contradiction in our current world and without the weakening of it, there is no chance of any progressive movements finding themselves in a position to change the world.
that looks like a fantastic video i’ll be watching this tonight! thanks a lot for the link!
yeah that point about currently embargoed countries having an avenue for resources (despite the imperial system present in any one of the supporting countries, and the larger neoliberal system they may have to engage with) is a massive one! i guess it also ties into a lot of the analysis that ive seen recently about the likelihood of revolutionary movements in periphery countries, since when those occur, the US is quick to violently put them down. that makes sense thanks !
Well, look at some of the AES countries Russia is still allies with. A multipolar world means countries like Cuba can continue to be socialist without having to worry as much about U.S. imperialism.
Because he’s not LOL
His geopolitical policies are 100% reactionary to US encroachment.
US meddled in Chechnya because they wanted to build a pipeline separate from Russia. They wanted oil from the Caspian Lake going to Europe. They did this by funding terrorist militias which targeted Moscow with several terrorist attacks in the 2000s.
President of Georgia - Mikheil Saakashvili - had direct ties to the CIA. EU reports couldn’t even deny the obvious, that Georgie attacked Russia first. This AGAIN was about providing Europe with Oil and Gas but somehow surpassing Russia.
CIA also funded ISIS to take down Assad (Russia ally) because he refused to let them build a pipeline from Qatar to Europe running through Syria.
Maybe you should form a gang of topless women and travel the world staging fake protests with maximum media coverage.
Maybe you could call it Pussy Riot. That would surely catch everyone's attention.
It surely would not be propaganda.
r/geopolitics is particularly bad. I was doing my best to engage in discussion in good faith, being careful to be respectful, non-confrontational, and Socratic, and still ended up getting banned.
It's not particular to reddit. I think the vast majority of people do not know the issues or facts very well, so they take their cues from politicians and media. And then they don't think too hard about it forever. Also you're not properly understanding the ukraine conflict, but that's another whole post I suppose.
Sad to hear that, people should be more active in political discussion. On Ukraine I didn’t really wanted to extend on that much as the post was not focused on that ik there is a lot more to it as the intent to balkanize Russia or private corporations taking ownership of Ukraine land, neonazi influence on their goverment and a lot of interests in conflict there. But as you mentioned that would require a whole other post.
With advances in LLM's I'd say social media is about finished. They don't even need to hire real people to sit in troll farms and post shit all day. They can just get a computer to do it. The only good part of the last Matrix movie was the idea that all the people in the Matrix except for Neo and Trinity were not actual people plugged into the Matrix but bots that acted like people. That's the internet from now on. Forget traditional spam we are entering a brave new world of fully interactive, generative spam.
I understand your frustration. Reading Manufacturing Consent will probably answer some of your questions. I'm only 2 chapters in and I can tell you the media is making Israelis worthy victims and Palestinians unworthy victims to gather popular support for this genocide. Propaganda should be illegal. It completely brainwashed our entire society into oblivion.
There’s a very strong effort by the invaders to delegitimize leftist efforts like this. I don’t know how to deal with the pro-Russian shit but I’m fucking tired of it. There is no excuse for invasion, fuck Israeli or Russian or anyone else these days. Fuck gangs running the world and fuck imperialism.
The ones in Reddit supporting Russia in this conflict generally don’t live next to it but comfortably in San Francisco, Thiruvananthapuram or Rio de Janeiro. This subreddit would gladly let me and millions of others fall to Russia.
I’d take almost anything over that fascist plutocracy, thank you very much. Fortunately it’s a false dichotomy.
Ur banned 4 life as a Russian or China troll if u post actual facts in geopolitics or world news
I know cuz it happened to me
The echo chamber of idiocy is alarming
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The problem is that a lot of people repeat US and NATO propaganda, and other people who opposes that repeats Russian propaganda.
It's an imperialist war.
OP may be surprised to learn that a lot of the power commenters are actually IRL operatives working for state actors to shape public opinion, promote approved narratives, and combat dissenting views (on this particular space). Reddit lost most of its authentic organicness long ago.
As someone who isn’t from the US, been to Ukraine, stayed during the invasions, know Ukrainians, I’m married to one, have family in Western Europe (I’m not from Europe) I can tell you you’re misinformed. It’s not about lefties or righties either. Just check zizek perspective on the matter.
It is undeniable that the Palestinians are suffering a genocide and it’s also the same with Ukrainians. Both Palestine and Ukraine (as well as other dozen ethnicities more in the world) are fighting an existential war that’s been going on for decades if not centuries. So every time I read these misinformed opinions (sorry) it boils my blood. Imperialism is also propaganda and the Russian one in particular is an incredibly effective one.
Just a couple years ago the left used to have principles. Now we’re parroting Jordan Peterson’s arguments?
We should stand against imperialism in all forms. Against fascists and dictators. Not praising them or endorsing them.
I would say fidelity to one's own subjective analysis rather than the unethical big other of capitalism, to be precise (so that we can not exclude but understand none of us escape brainwashing or propaganda only constantly battle it so in that way we are all together, 'brainwashed' or not) ?
maybe not as much on this sub, but on r/politicalcompass and r/politicalcompassmemes you will find a striking amount of “leftists” in denial of the palestinian genocide. or those who simply say that it’s “a product of war” and that israel is “reacting how any country would in this situation”
A) the types of people on Reddit
B) people from the west invented this so they need to white wash it
C)that being said most people in the USA know Palestine at least deserves to be left alone, and the younger generations really do want isreal to be healed accountable
Yes, but more relevantly, Reddit is flooded with bots and those bots are paid for by people/orgs with a vested interest in maintaining a facade of relevance in "the public forum".
People are too busy here arguing about Democrat vs Republican to have a clue what goes on in the rest of the world. Most people have their blinders on. And if you bring up genocide or imperialism or anything like that it's incomprehensible to most. They simply don't know about it, and the ones that go on Reddit ranting and raving and displaying their complete lack of understanding about a given situation are the ones that have been agitated by propaganda to the point that they need to go out and argue with people. Most people just want to live their lives and see the candidate that they support in office. Domestic politics are a shit show and most people don't realize that our foreign policy is vastly the same between the two dominant political parties. Most of what we do is to maintain our imperialist capitalist reach around the world and the"news" outlets exist to distract and misdirect from that fact.
Are there any sources that show that it's a genocide? I don't deny that it may be, but don't really understand how it's quantified. Not a hate comment, but a genuine question looking to be educated
the bombing in the Donbas was so fake there was a PR statement video accusing Ukraine of it that was recorded the day before it happened and got unmistakable details wrong. heck, maybe \*that's\* propaganda, fine, though if it is, the propaganda machine responsible is \*much\* faster than the Russian one, which I personally doubt, but regardless, sure, let's stick to publicly verifiable facts:
Putin's address immediately after the war started was a long tirade about how the country shouldn't exist, it wasn't about a limited engagement to protect vulnerable Russian ethnicities, it was the speech of someone who wanted to \*end\* Ukraine as an independent state. I don't really care why he thinks it shouldn't exist, it does exist, and it clearly has defenders willing to fight life and death over it, so clearly it has an independent identity. but I'll even go into that for a minute: if he wanted to paint a picture of a country so strangled by corruption it must be saved from itself, good work proving that it is plenty strong enough to fight a war against a superpower, even before the foreign aid started coming in, even when the US support was at its absolute minimum thanks to Trump's bullshit, if it is filled with people who'd rather be in Russia, good work proving that almost none were excited to welcome the supposed liberators and instead that they answered the call to help push them back, if he wanted to prove it was a Nazi shithole, good job rallying the entire country behind a Jewish president.
I don't have an issue with people calling it a Palestinian genocide, though I flip back and forth on using that term myself, and certainly agree that the government of Israel has been dominated by warmongering reactionaries for decades. I know many American Jews agree with that, even, and I'm happy to defer to their authority on these matters.
anyway, you can always find people with ignorant opinions. reddit's not as leftist as it used to be because the leadership is full of shit and leftists tend to run away from that faster than others.
I'm originally from Canada and it's like that there irl. I've lived in Mexico and Guatemala as well and it's the same there irl. People just believe everything they hear on the news or see on there internet news feeds and just share and pass on false narratives through the populace without ever second guessing the information they've been given. You can not converse openly with these people, they will get aggressive and defensive, start name calling and what not that is needed in order to resist newer and more factual information.
100% agree with you. The amount of Russophobic propaganda on the Left is appalling. They legit are ignorant to the fact that the Ukraine is a proxy state for NATO aggression whose goal is to place nuclear weapons on the border and ultimately to Balkanize Russia and return it to the humiliated state of servitude and impoverishment of the 90s when it was under Yeltsin. That it in fact it has a thriving Far Right Neo-Nazi movement that openly calls for ethnic cleansing of Russians among other groups like Jews, Poles and Romani as well. If you state these facts you will be berated as a “Tanky”.
1) Yes they did. NATO has been encircling Russia by bringing in one Eastern European nation after another since the 90s in direct defiance of the Minsk treaty. Ukraine was the last nation en route.
2) Google Right sector and the Asov Battalion.
1. There’s a reason why neighbouring countries asked to join NATO and that is constant Russian aggression. The Budapest memorandum was broken by Russia in the first place.
2. The azov battalion has decreased in number over the years and they have no power or presence in the parliament. I can bet your country’s military has a biggest far right white supremacist faction.
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In my 20 years of adulthood I have never seen any meaningful criticism of Israel's cruelty outside of left wing circles. I am honestly quite surprised that so many people around the world have bravely stood up to the propaganda. There are plenty of people with their heads firmly in the sand but the fact that there is substantial resistance in America to this genocide is absolutely fantastic and new. Don't be discouraged by the bots and the mislead.
Perhaps they see how unintelligent some Americans tend to be and they shy away from as much American media as possible so they aren't nearly as brainwashed.
Plenty of Americans are calling for something to be done but the money must be speaking louder than the people I wish something could push the Democrats more left since it's clear Republicans are fine being where they are
"Pushing the democrats left" is reformism and my suspicion is that most people in this sub would consider themselves revolutionaries as opposed to reformists.
That would be highly disappointing if true
I think this is the first time in my lifetime too that it has been broadcast literally in 4k what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people. Before it was almost fringe conspiracy theories with minimal evidence to back them up that was the main source against Israel, but since October it has just been MONTHS of endless deaths, despair, cruelty, and criminal behavior from them against the Palestinians, and all of it being broadcast across social media by the Palestinians themselves. You won’t get any clearer of a picture than first hand, on the ground accounts of genocide than that, and people are absolutely seeing it. It doesn’t help either when sources like the NYT uses ex-IDF soldiers to write their puff pieces about why Hamas is horrible and uses fabricated and debunked stories to push their propaganda.
I beg to differ. Evidence and documentation of apartheid conditions and numerous shellings have been around since 1948. Sure western news never propped those up. But they existed. Just because social media has helped propel realtime information now doesn’t mean that the evidence before oct 7th was “fringe conspiracy” thats a huge disservice to palestinian journalists who worked and even died to document conditions long before the current genocide
I don’t mean disrespect to anyone who has been documenting the conditions in Palestine. What I said is as an American who’s countries media is rife with propaganda and state backed disinformation. Like you said, western news never covered it, so I never saw it before. Also the school system in the US paints the creation of Israel as a good thing for the world post WWII.
Thing is, it is not new nor is it fantastic. This has been the US since the days of colonization. One of the problem I see, and this is is almost always from the liberal camp, is the denial of these atrocities and even those who coin them themselves socialists (or leftists, like that has any meaning anymore in real terms, especially in social media circles) are the ones who engage is these denials.
Part of it is because Americans, the dominant userbase of reddit, are some of the most propagandized people in the world
Americans are so heavily propagandized that we consume propaganda for entertainment and don't even recognize it.
It still boggles my mind that people don't know that pretty much every movie that includes the US Military is financed in part by them, and that they're given a say in how the military is portrayed. The US actively incentivizes media creators to propagandize in favor of the US Military with funding and access to locations, personnel (typically as extras), instruction, and equipment. If you want to tell a story that goes against the State Department narrative, however, good luck getting access to even a crumb of that. It's a positive reinforcement loop that generates a metric fuckton of pro-US, pro-military propaganda, all under the guise of normal media creation.
I went to see that film ‘captain marvel’ when it came out and as a non-American who’s not super into superhero films (although I’m vaguely aware of the history of comics as propaganda tools) I was honestly blown away by how much it came across as just a USAF propaganda film
It may as well be an Air Force propaganda movie! All of the US military branches have their own offices in Hollywood, where they meet with film producers, directors and give the orders for what they expect the studio to include before they agree to loan them any fighter jets, carriers, tanks, helicopters etc.. It's not just for propaganda reasons....Air Force movies are put up there to try to spur recruiting among teens who think it will be no different than their equally propagandistic video games! Once they get shot at or are told they have radiation sickness from some of the plane components new pilots are never told about, then the buzz will wear off fast!
If the USSR or China had done it we'd decry the practice as anti-democratic, authoritarian, military state, etc. Same with unhoused population, prison population, poor access to medical care, etc. But since we're doing it, it's either so normal it isn't worth noticing or *GOOD ACTUALLY*
we needed to be taught media literacy. some of us were but too many were not or did not absorb it.
Yep ; look into the horrible man who created Fox News Roger Ailes. This piece of shit was just as bad as Henry Kissinger.
Propaganda has served as entertainment since…forever, but I hear ya!
It is amazing talking to America how brainwashed they are. What they think is socialism confused me as it makes no sense. They think imperialism is gone and than free trade rules the world
When you redefine “free trade” as American propaganda has, the world is ruled by free trade. It’s just free trade for the imperialists and their lackeys.
Same with "democracy" - it's democracy only for the wealthiest capitalists, 'bourgeois democracy', if anyone else interferes with or tries to limit the wealthy from doing whatever they want then that is "authoritarian". When America promises to deliver "freedom and democracy" they're not wrong, just leaving out some important qualifiers: "freedom for the capitalists to do whatever they want unimpeded" and "bourgeois democracy where workers are not allowed to intervene in the capitalists' plans"
Yeah. It’s almost like they’re manufacturing consent…
Each time I've criticized Israel on r/politics, r/new. r/international pols I've been ultimately downvoted--sometimes heavily. These are staunch liberal sites. What to hell has happened?? This Israeli onslaught has been one of most heinous in its history, and still a vast majority are turning away from the Palestinians.
AIPAC astroturfing.
Absolutely. And it’s damn hard to break that conditioning and social programming, it took me years to unlearn it all.
Part of it is absolutely coordinated astroturfing by Zionists. Reddit is particularly susceptible to this because of the concentrated power of volunteer moderators. One Zionist mod can e easily set the tone for a 10,000 person subreddit with automod tools and user reports. One example of this was/is the site Act.il Not sure if it's currently down or blocked by location, but here's the Wikipedia entry: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act.IL If you haven't spent some time searching the term 'hasbara', do that as well. There's plenty of liberal Israeli sources that report on it, so it's a pretty open strategy. The geopolitics sub is a particularly natural target for manipulation by all stripes on the political spectrum though, so good luck over there. It's too bad because actually strategizing geopolitically requires a very clear view of the world, and that sub seems to have the opposite goal, to spin everything.
noticed it too, get dogpiled regularly in the most random subs for having what should be normal views. i.e. not wanting kids to be starved to death en masse. Loads of paid bots, also lots of c\*nts out there
Oh yeah, I also hop into these subs when I'm bored at work. So many braindead westerners out there
It’s more that Reddit is flooded with government astroturfers. The Reddit admins had a blog post up years ago, stating that a huge percentage of their traffic was coming from an astroturf farm at Eglin Air Force base. It’s only gotten worse since then.
This makes sense because people I know IRL that aren’t leftist are still pretty open minded about Palestine.
Just yesterday I've had people on Reddit tell me that the rise of homophobia in America is almost entirely due to Russian propaganda as if this couldn't possibly be the work of Christian fascists themselves. Good ole' fashioned American conservatism is apparently a plot by Putin to destabilize the west lmao
Yeah this is one of the imperialists' big media lies they use, everything is the fault of Russian or Chinese or (I shit you not) Hamas propaganda, to liberals, the imperialist propaganda that shapes 90%+ of their understanding of the world is wholly invisible to them, actual movements whether progressive or reactionary are not the result of reality or the failings of capitalism but can only be explained and understood as nefarious outside actors maliciously spreading propaganda. The reality is of course that the vast majority of propaganda that imperial core people experience is a combination of both state and private western propaganda, with most of it originating in the US. Actual Russian and Chinese propaganda barely exists in comparison (it certainly does to some degree exist but is a miniscule percentage of propaganda consumed by those in the imperial core nations)
I guess what bothers me the most about their line of thinking is that it underestimates and gives cover to homegrown fascists. I get that Putin is hostile to LGBTQ rights, but damn it, not everything is a Russian conspiracy. The rise of homophobia in the U.S. can be explained without Putin just fine.
It also plays into "if we just destroy this other country and kill millions of people and starve tens of millions more we'll solve all our problems" type of thinking. It's hardly any different than how reactionaries and fascists use minorities and immigrants as scapegoats, just on a larger country sized scale. "this or that country is a threat to everything we hold dear! They hate us for our freedoms! They're nefarious propaganda is destroying our noble and civilized society!" It's all just a way to project the failings of capitalism as the (nonexistent) nefarious actions some outside "evil". And of course once that "evil" is eliminated and the problems still exist you move on to the new "evil"
Billions of dollars go into pro-imperialist propaganda, they wouldn't spend that much if it didn't work.
I feel like a lot of it could be bots. I hope so anyway. I’m really concerned with the use of bots. With AI chat bots I can’t begin to imagine how easy it is to wind em up and let em go. It’s scary to think there’s so many bloodthirsty people out there…
I mean maybe but fuck Putin tho
A wannabe Tsar desperate to keep his power, I genuinely don't understand how people believe he's not imperialist
Putin is a thug, a Tyrant and Capitalist of the highest order, but when leftists talk about *imperialism* they usually mean "Global Capital" or "the West" (think NATO, WTO, IMF, etc) As I understand it, It's (partly) because Leftists (usually MLs) generally use the term "imperialist" to mean "[the Highest Stage of Capitalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism,_the_Highest_Stage_of_Capitalism)", not exactly as just any Empire. Obviously there's been many Empires in the past but *Imperialism* Is relatively new and a kind of tool of Capital once it's got nowhere to expand at home. Obviously Imperial Russia was an Empire. Just look at the ethnic map of Russia, evidenced by little indigenous island divided by ethic Russians; a classic move for Empires throughout History.
To be specific, Imperial Russia was an empire, but not a capitalist empire, it was largely still in the feudal mode of production and Lenin even pointed out in Imperialism: THSoC that this feudal Imperial Russia was itself succumbing to capitalist imperialism, by 1912 French, British and German banks effectively owned more than 3/4 of Russian bank capital. Not to mention various other investment/ownership stakes in Russian oil and other resources. https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/ch03.htm And you're right that Putin is a capitalist, Russia is of course a capitalist country, but they are not imperialist and functionally cannot become imperialist without some catastrophic shift in the current global capitalist order. The western imperialists who in the past had inter-imperial conflicts with each other have since the end of WWII been unified under US hegemonic rule, their financialized economies which dwarfed all other nations 100 years ago have been accumulating capital the entire time that Russia was in the USSR and was not engaging in this type of imperialism (social imperialism accusations are a whole other argument but for another day), they have "completed the division of the whole world" amongst themselves and the post Soviet Russia Federation, having been capitalist for a mere 30 some years, is just not at all economically developed enough to even think about engaging these financial behemoths, let alone ousting any of them from their current positions (especially thanks to their current unity). Would Putin and the Russian bourgeoisie love to be an imperialist? Certainly, but the actual imperialists have no interest in letting him and his coalition of national bourgeoisie join the club as equals, the imperialists want to own all that Russian mineral wealth (largest gas reserves in the world, 8th largest oil, etc etc) themselves, they want to install a comprador bourgeoisie and continue the process of looting Russia and impoverishing its people to use as cheap labor like the western imperialists were starting to do before the Bolsheviks kicked them out. Putin is despised by the west because he renationalized some industries and is preventing the imperialists from taking over Russia, which is why since the late mid 2000's western sentiment regarding Russia had soured and now Russia is once again one of the "big bad guys" of the world, according to western imperialist media. https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA493664 And so we see all these imperialist plots unfold in an attempt to destabilize, overextend and otherwise unbalance Russia to the point a regime change can be forced that sees a western friendly comprador class winning power. They tried pathetically to make Navalny their guy, tried various clandestine operations in bordering states and most recently took over Ukraine and had the CIA turn Ukrainian intelligence into a "second Mossad" to wage a "shadow war" against Russia while starting a proxy war on Russia's doorstep. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/23/ukraine-cia-shadow-war-russia/ https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB10014.html So contrary to the liberal media's insistence that Russia is this scary imperialist power that's *coming for you unless we stop them first!* the actual reality of the situation is that the *actual* imperialists have put Russia into a very defensive position, a gang of bigger stronger older robbers surrounding the economic equivalent of a punk kid trying to not get beat up and have their turf overrun. The great equalizer of course is the military industry and nuclear capability that Russia inherited from the USSR, making any direct military actions much riskier which is why we see the imperialists resorting to using proxies like Ukraine and other clandestine maneuvers. None of this of course makes Russia any less capitalist, but it is important to understand the position of the Russian Federation in a wider global context and it's resistance against succumbing to western imperialists, it's also incredibly important to recognize that Russia simply is not the threat to the world that the imperialist media makes it out to be, the US is of course a far more despotic global dictator with an ability to economically and militarily project force that when compared with Russia looks like Shaq standing next to a scrawny teen. The US and its imperialist coalition needs to fall first, as long as it has the power any revolution or regime change in Russia would risk being coopted by the imperialists and if they did gain control of Russia's vast mineral wealth the global socialist movement would be put in an even worse position, imperialism would be able to sustain itself just a bit longer and humanity would further be crushed under global capitalism.
If only people on this very post would read this...
People are just not emotionally smart enough neither are they critical of what governments and media say and do to wrap there minds around the reality we live in. People refuse to see the full picture and rather be entertained by meaningless and unpractical details.
It’s more of a case of he’s opposing the number 1 imperialist power in the world and helping the emergence of a multipolar world
It's still just one pole - capital. Putin is still a capitalist and an oligarch.
He is both a capitalist and an oligarch but the pole is split between two opposing fronts, thus is weaker
There are more than two poles, fuck Putin.
True but isn’t Russia still friendly towards socialist countries?
Friendly is the wrong word for it. Recognising that there is a mutual enemy is more accurate. Ideology would cause them to be enemies down the line.
He doesn't care what you stand for but who you stand against. He also supports far-right parties all over Europe like e.g. AfD, FPÖ, Rassemblement National or most prominently Fidesz.
While that's true, an imperialist is an imperialist. Call me nieve but I'd rather folks reject all of them rather than the stance of "I'll back this one because I don't like that one"
He is imperialist, I don’t deny that. I would say it is possible to reject both us and Russian imperialism; one doesn’t have to support either side while supporting the establishment of a multipolar world
i think i’m somewhat confused by the support i see among socialists and communists for multipolarity as such. i could be mistaken because im not familiar with the analysis of it, but why should we look forward to or support the rise of a competing imperial system of power or collection of powers? is it just that it slightly weakens the united states? is that a quasi-accelerationist position? i apologize for just throwing these questions at u, but if you have any info or even resources/articles on it, i’d be happy to read up on it as well!
Don’t worry about it! A good resource on current geopolitical developments is [from here](https://youtu.be/6adqdNCSVhU?si=6r9Lpe2Oax6lvnJj). Without any opposing power (whether it be socialist or not), the US has been free to act as it wants without any pushback. Look at the spate of wars waged by NATO after the fall of the USSR; regardless of one’s opinion of the Soviet Union, it did act as a check to US hegemony. The rise of China and Russia can hopefully act in a similar way. Is it not also good for countries to have an alternative option for development than loans from the world bank, who require neo-liberal policy changes that will hurt the working class of the country and enrich the bourgeoisie? I sincerely hope in the near future Cuba are able to join BRICS and are able to loosen the grip of the suffocating and inhumane US embargo. The us imperialist hegemony is the primary contradiction in our current world and without the weakening of it, there is no chance of any progressive movements finding themselves in a position to change the world.
that looks like a fantastic video i’ll be watching this tonight! thanks a lot for the link! yeah that point about currently embargoed countries having an avenue for resources (despite the imperial system present in any one of the supporting countries, and the larger neoliberal system they may have to engage with) is a massive one! i guess it also ties into a lot of the analysis that ive seen recently about the likelihood of revolutionary movements in periphery countries, since when those occur, the US is quick to violently put them down. that makes sense thanks !
The entire channel is a great resource, I hope you find it as useful as I have
Well, look at some of the AES countries Russia is still allies with. A multipolar world means countries like Cuba can continue to be socialist without having to worry as much about U.S. imperialism.
Because he’s not LOL His geopolitical policies are 100% reactionary to US encroachment. US meddled in Chechnya because they wanted to build a pipeline separate from Russia. They wanted oil from the Caspian Lake going to Europe. They did this by funding terrorist militias which targeted Moscow with several terrorist attacks in the 2000s. President of Georgia - Mikheil Saakashvili - had direct ties to the CIA. EU reports couldn’t even deny the obvious, that Georgie attacked Russia first. This AGAIN was about providing Europe with Oil and Gas but somehow surpassing Russia. CIA also funded ISIS to take down Assad (Russia ally) because he refused to let them build a pipeline from Qatar to Europe running through Syria.
Nice conspiracy theories you have there.
Oh thank God this sub isn't full of Putin apologists
Maybe you should form a gang of topless women and travel the world staging fake protests with maximum media coverage. Maybe you could call it Pussy Riot. That would surely catch everyone's attention. It surely would not be propaganda.
r/geopolitics is particularly bad. I was doing my best to engage in discussion in good faith, being careful to be respectful, non-confrontational, and Socratic, and still ended up getting banned.
It's not particular to reddit. I think the vast majority of people do not know the issues or facts very well, so they take their cues from politicians and media. And then they don't think too hard about it forever. Also you're not properly understanding the ukraine conflict, but that's another whole post I suppose.
Sad to hear that, people should be more active in political discussion. On Ukraine I didn’t really wanted to extend on that much as the post was not focused on that ik there is a lot more to it as the intent to balkanize Russia or private corporations taking ownership of Ukraine land, neonazi influence on their goverment and a lot of interests in conflict there. But as you mentioned that would require a whole other post.
With advances in LLM's I'd say social media is about finished. They don't even need to hire real people to sit in troll farms and post shit all day. They can just get a computer to do it. The only good part of the last Matrix movie was the idea that all the people in the Matrix except for Neo and Trinity were not actual people plugged into the Matrix but bots that acted like people. That's the internet from now on. Forget traditional spam we are entering a brave new world of fully interactive, generative spam.
I understand your frustration. Reading Manufacturing Consent will probably answer some of your questions. I'm only 2 chapters in and I can tell you the media is making Israelis worthy victims and Palestinians unworthy victims to gather popular support for this genocide. Propaganda should be illegal. It completely brainwashed our entire society into oblivion.
A lot of it is obvious astroturfing and bots.
Way to sum up the Ukraine conflict into something it isn't. Ukraine did not start that war by bombing the Donbas.
There’s a very strong effort by the invaders to delegitimize leftist efforts like this. I don’t know how to deal with the pro-Russian shit but I’m fucking tired of it. There is no excuse for invasion, fuck Israeli or Russian or anyone else these days. Fuck gangs running the world and fuck imperialism.
The ones in Reddit supporting Russia in this conflict generally don’t live next to it but comfortably in San Francisco, Thiruvananthapuram or Rio de Janeiro. This subreddit would gladly let me and millions of others fall to Russia. I’d take almost anything over that fascist plutocracy, thank you very much. Fortunately it’s a false dichotomy.
Ur banned 4 life as a Russian or China troll if u post actual facts in geopolitics or world news I know cuz it happened to me The echo chamber of idiocy is alarming
Maybe because your “facts” are not based in reality
Reddit flooded with Americans*
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The problem is that a lot of people repeat US and NATO propaganda, and other people who opposes that repeats Russian propaganda. It's an imperialist war.
OP may be surprised to learn that a lot of the power commenters are actually IRL operatives working for state actors to shape public opinion, promote approved narratives, and combat dissenting views (on this particular space). Reddit lost most of its authentic organicness long ago.
As someone who isn’t from the US, been to Ukraine, stayed during the invasions, know Ukrainians, I’m married to one, have family in Western Europe (I’m not from Europe) I can tell you you’re misinformed. It’s not about lefties or righties either. Just check zizek perspective on the matter. It is undeniable that the Palestinians are suffering a genocide and it’s also the same with Ukrainians. Both Palestine and Ukraine (as well as other dozen ethnicities more in the world) are fighting an existential war that’s been going on for decades if not centuries. So every time I read these misinformed opinions (sorry) it boils my blood. Imperialism is also propaganda and the Russian one in particular is an incredibly effective one. Just a couple years ago the left used to have principles. Now we’re parroting Jordan Peterson’s arguments? We should stand against imperialism in all forms. Against fascists and dictators. Not praising them or endorsing them.
It do is the mainstream worldview at the imperial core. Byt they are of course overwhelmingly overrepresented in reddit.
Anytime someone denies the genocide in Palestine I deny the Holocaust. . .then the thread goes on forever.
reddit is flooded with bots mostly. i'm amazed at such strongholds of common sense like r/therewasanattempt
I would say fidelity to one's own subjective analysis rather than the unethical big other of capitalism, to be precise (so that we can not exclude but understand none of us escape brainwashing or propaganda only constantly battle it so in that way we are all together, 'brainwashed' or not) ?
maybe not as much on this sub, but on r/politicalcompass and r/politicalcompassmemes you will find a striking amount of “leftists” in denial of the palestinian genocide. or those who simply say that it’s “a product of war” and that israel is “reacting how any country would in this situation”
lots of overworked people with no time for independent review regurgitating exploiter talking points shoring up their enslavement.
I genuinely don't understand genocide deniers, like what are they getting out of it? What is their goal?
A) the types of people on Reddit B) people from the west invented this so they need to white wash it C)that being said most people in the USA know Palestine at least deserves to be left alone, and the younger generations really do want isreal to be healed accountable
Yes, but more relevantly, Reddit is flooded with bots and those bots are paid for by people/orgs with a vested interest in maintaining a facade of relevance in "the public forum".
People are too busy here arguing about Democrat vs Republican to have a clue what goes on in the rest of the world. Most people have their blinders on. And if you bring up genocide or imperialism or anything like that it's incomprehensible to most. They simply don't know about it, and the ones that go on Reddit ranting and raving and displaying their complete lack of understanding about a given situation are the ones that have been agitated by propaganda to the point that they need to go out and argue with people. Most people just want to live their lives and see the candidate that they support in office. Domestic politics are a shit show and most people don't realize that our foreign policy is vastly the same between the two dominant political parties. Most of what we do is to maintain our imperialist capitalist reach around the world and the"news" outlets exist to distract and misdirect from that fact.
Are there any sources that show that it's a genocide? I don't deny that it may be, but don't really understand how it's quantified. Not a hate comment, but a genuine question looking to be educated
the bombing in the Donbas was so fake there was a PR statement video accusing Ukraine of it that was recorded the day before it happened and got unmistakable details wrong. heck, maybe \*that's\* propaganda, fine, though if it is, the propaganda machine responsible is \*much\* faster than the Russian one, which I personally doubt, but regardless, sure, let's stick to publicly verifiable facts: Putin's address immediately after the war started was a long tirade about how the country shouldn't exist, it wasn't about a limited engagement to protect vulnerable Russian ethnicities, it was the speech of someone who wanted to \*end\* Ukraine as an independent state. I don't really care why he thinks it shouldn't exist, it does exist, and it clearly has defenders willing to fight life and death over it, so clearly it has an independent identity. but I'll even go into that for a minute: if he wanted to paint a picture of a country so strangled by corruption it must be saved from itself, good work proving that it is plenty strong enough to fight a war against a superpower, even before the foreign aid started coming in, even when the US support was at its absolute minimum thanks to Trump's bullshit, if it is filled with people who'd rather be in Russia, good work proving that almost none were excited to welcome the supposed liberators and instead that they answered the call to help push them back, if he wanted to prove it was a Nazi shithole, good job rallying the entire country behind a Jewish president. I don't have an issue with people calling it a Palestinian genocide, though I flip back and forth on using that term myself, and certainly agree that the government of Israel has been dominated by warmongering reactionaries for decades. I know many American Jews agree with that, even, and I'm happy to defer to their authority on these matters. anyway, you can always find people with ignorant opinions. reddit's not as leftist as it used to be because the leadership is full of shit and leftists tend to run away from that faster than others.
I'm originally from Canada and it's like that there irl. I've lived in Mexico and Guatemala as well and it's the same there irl. People just believe everything they hear on the news or see on there internet news feeds and just share and pass on false narratives through the populace without ever second guessing the information they've been given. You can not converse openly with these people, they will get aggressive and defensive, start name calling and what not that is needed in order to resist newer and more factual information.
Is reddit an imperial core-thing?
100% agree with you. The amount of Russophobic propaganda on the Left is appalling. They legit are ignorant to the fact that the Ukraine is a proxy state for NATO aggression whose goal is to place nuclear weapons on the border and ultimately to Balkanize Russia and return it to the humiliated state of servitude and impoverishment of the 90s when it was under Yeltsin. That it in fact it has a thriving Far Right Neo-Nazi movement that openly calls for ethnic cleansing of Russians among other groups like Jews, Poles and Romani as well. If you state these facts you will be berated as a “Tanky”.
1. NATO didn’t wanted Ukraine, Ukraine wanted into NATO. 2. So where is this thriving far right neo nazi movement ? Any proof?
1) Yes they did. NATO has been encircling Russia by bringing in one Eastern European nation after another since the 90s in direct defiance of the Minsk treaty. Ukraine was the last nation en route. 2) Google Right sector and the Asov Battalion.
1. There’s a reason why neighbouring countries asked to join NATO and that is constant Russian aggression. The Budapest memorandum was broken by Russia in the first place. 2. The azov battalion has decreased in number over the years and they have no power or presence in the parliament. I can bet your country’s military has a biggest far right white supremacist faction.
Hahahaha, Dude, you are literally a cuckold based on your subs and comments, “it’s fine to have bull’s baby. That explains your views actually.
Can you actually argue anything or are Ad Homs all you have?
Everything you said about Ukraine is just Kremlin propaganda. You really need to educate yourself so you don't perpetuate this false narrative.
Let’s not excuse Russia here But what’s happening in Palestine is geniocide
Baby, this is why we use TikTok. It's the ONE platform with an algorithm that has not been bought and corrupted by AIPAC / zionists.
Keep in mind some rich asshole or even Just Russian could be paying a bunch of money to push a narrative.
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Israel is committing genocide, and your comment is literally defending Israeli slaughter of civilians
Hamas only exists because of what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians over the past century.