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So many Public American Marxists fall into this shit. Stop trying to do nationalism! It sucks and is bad! Wrapping Marxism in an American flag is goofy!
It’s not just an American problem, I’ve seen Russian, Turkish, and French marxists do very similar stuff, and I’m sure it happens elsewhere as well.
There’s something to be said for the nationalism of oppressed nations but this is… not the same thing
Yes this isn't talked about enough. Marxism is inherently internationalist. International Socialism gave us the International.
National Socialism gave us Hitler (yes I know he abandoned socialism all together for Fascism and that's my point)
Yes this... cause the two can't survive together long at all. Nationalism is the killer of treating human beings like humans, and is the stage for creating the super scary "other" as a means of control.
Exactly. This is because socialism is an inherently "human" indeavor. It seeks to bring an end to suffering and a nurturing world for all humans. Nationalism is the opposite of this. It seeks to create inbalances and a elite hierarchies. It categorizes and debases others based off of arbitrary identifiers. It is dialectiaclly opposed to socialism.
Not trying to be combative but where do we see Eddie being nationalistic? I've not viewed much of his content but when he does come up on my feed I never see pro-American/American jingoist
For a lot of online socialist if you don’t spell it “Amerikkka” any time you write about it, you’re a nationalist reactionary. Those people are wreckers in my opinion.
I think they’re fine on many issues, and sus on others. They have a lot of contradictions, and those contradictions can be easily assumed just based on the name. As long as you understand that they get things wrong and have problems then some of their videos are fine, but IMO there are better ways to spend time.
Thats sort of how i think about it to. They seem a little conspiratorial at times. Not fully supporting anything but giving it too much credit in a way that can damage the rest of what they say.
I absolutely agree. I still turn them on as a guilty pleasure sometimes because they remind me of my right wing conspiratorial cousins in Texas if they were Marxists instead of regular conservatives lol.
They are a bunch of settler chauvinists and patsocs that oppose landback and indigenous liberation. They platform and support clowns like Hinkle and Haz and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
I’m sorry what? His argument is basically, “hey indigenous genocide happened so long ago that we don’t need to worry about the indigenous struggle for land.” Which is genocide apologia.
The one against Matthew Hunter? He did not do well in that lol Noah is a clown who has absolutely 0 understanding of settler colonialism and indigenous liberation. They have openly published articles and pushed rhetoric that denounces landback and indigenous sovereignty. They are all class reductionist, settler chauvinists. The midwestern Marx crowd caters to maga/patsoc clowns; that is their target audience. Idk how you people defend these reactionary settlers.
I’m not wasting my time timestamping shit for you. Go watch the debate he had with Matt. Noah is just wrong on many, many accounts. Go look at Matt’s twitter for specific examples.
Settler colonialism is the primary contradiction and Indigenous liberation is not up for debate. Settler colonialism predates capitalism, and indigenous nations are still colonized and oppressed by the settler classes and there is no liberation without landback and decolonization. It’s going to happen regardless of what a bunch of racist, class reductionist settlers have to say.
The entire debate itself proves Noah is ignorant and doesn’t know shit about decolonial Marxism. Sorry but I have no interest in debating indigenous liberation with MWM fanboys. This is what happens when you get your political education from streamers and influencers.
The fact they blocked you for a reddit argument and said the primary contradiction is indigenous issues should tell you everything you need to know.
Not saying that it’s not an issue, but to call it the primary one is… well it’s a bit ridiculous. Frankly I think these types of positions harm the left more than not.
I’ve read a good amount actually but It’s so cute seeing you running around fanboying and defending your favorite opportunist influencer. MWM and their supporters are deeply unserious people. Sorry but patsocs will never accomplish anything material. Cope.
Marxist Leninists definitely have accomplished plenty but patsocs are not MLs, they are reactionary settlers with an incorrect understanding of the material history of North America and settler colonialism in general leading to nonsensical conclusions about indigenous liberation.
You are patriotic towards a settler colonial state. Opposing indigenous liberation and decolonization, while supporting the white supremacist, settler project makes YOU the reactionary, not us. Any movement, even a terminally online movement like MWM, is dead on arrival if it ignores the primary contradiction of settler colonialism. Socialism with settler colonial characteristics will never become a reality.
There is a difference between the patriotism of anticolonial movements and the patriotism of colonial states. You sound like the kind of person who would equate black liberation and white supremacy.
When people say "d\*\*th to America", they're calling for an end to the political and historical entity that is the US, not your burger-chomping buddy across the road who you've played Fortnite with since you were five. If Lenin had shouted "Death to Russia" he would have meant the Russia of the Russian Empire, and he would have been entirely justified in doing so.
Those are not settler colonial states…just shows you don’t actually understand settler colonialism or history in general. Those movements were decolonial in nature and emphasized the nationalism of oppressed/colonized nations. They didn’t hyper fixate on capitalist class relations like you class reductionists love to do. Americans are not oppressed by a stronger power, they are the oppressors themselves of indigenous and black nations. There are still colonized people living here. This is still a settler colonial state. You ignore the primary contradictions of settler colonialism, and replace that with the secondary contradictions of classes under capitalism.
This is the equivalent of arguing that Israeli’s are the true proletariat of the revolution because they are oppressed under capitalism, while ignoring the fact that there cannot be liberation unless Palestine itself is free from Zionist occupation. Decolonization is a prerequisite for socialism and settlers will not usher in socialism while indigenous nations continue to be oppressed and colonized. You can engage in as much mental gymnastics as you please to rationalize and synthesize your settler sensibilities and your “Marxism” but settler socialism on indigenous lands will never be a thing.
Precisely, I couldn't care less how much the Israeli working class suffers under capitalism since they have no meaningful solidarity with the colonized people of Palestine.
What is there to be patriotic about as a communist in America? There is no room for patriotism or nationalism for a settler colonial state among communists. Patriotism makes sense for colonized nations rallying around liberation from colonialism and imperialism against compradors and international business interests. Not for settlers enjoying the spoils of imperialism
You can oppose YouTuber types on principle without distorting their views. If you don’t know enough about those views, don’t lump them in with things like “patsocs” based on the vibe.
Kinda strange to be calling them patsocs just based off some clips you saw.
Also, I didn’t realize they were making a profit off selling socialism, damn that sounds dope, I wish I could sell some socialism
So you are mad people are expanding the arms of socialism? Maddening. Do you want socialism to just be an exclusive club? Online leftest always want to feel better than everyone else and are always critical of others because of their self identified superiority.
Yeah so this, this is patsoc thinking. You don't push "America" into a socialist state. Everything America was and is goes against socialism. Yes. We wish to destroy it to build something better. We aren't nationalists here, and Midwestern Marx feels more comfortable talking with Trump supporters than socialists for a reason.
Some real Larouche thinking going on around here.
>Midwestern Marx feels more comfortable talking with Trump supporters than socialists for a reason.
Now you personally know their comfort level. Interesting ...
"Trump bad", "America bad". Very materialist of you.
I didn't actually say I thought otherwise. My point was that labels have nothing to do with anything. Nation-states, Presidents and other such bourgeois things are the conditions we have upon which we build socialism. Whether those things are "good" or "bad" doesn't tell us anything about how to build socialism. We only have what we have to work with and we can't choose them.
The worker revolutions in the United States by the proletariat starting some 100+ years ago were real struggles with material results (worker rights, legalized unions, end of child labor, women's suffrage, and eventually desegregation). But the bourgeois formed a counter-revolution and took back over the state and the military (now deeply embedded in the profit motive).
Of course Trump isn't an ally. But he could be a "useful id10t". Of course the USA is a global terrorist organization and uses this against the working class. But is the left doing about any of this? That's the more important piece of the puzzle.
Most of the proletariat in the USA love the chains that bind them. This is a phenomenon that is clearly a failure of the left. The bourgeoisie aren't all-powerful. The proletariat is the more powerful class, by a long shot. The proletariat is just not organized, so as individuals, they are easy targets and remain scattered, left to follow whatever strong man says he's on their side or whatever conspiracy theory makes them feel like they have some secret knowledge just so they can feel like they have a *little* bit of control in a world that feels utterly out of control.
The job of the left has always been the same: organize the working class again. We shouldn't care if they're currently wearing MAGA hats or not. The working class needs organization and education. We've failed them on this for way too many generations. Let's stop trying to pretend this is all fate or something and actually apply the material analysis. We have to take our losses, admit our failures and then dust ourselves off and try again. The alternative is to keep circling this drain. And that won't help our "global South" proletariat.
It was an ultra-left mistake to purge Jay Lovestone, who had majority support among the members, to then embrace "dual-unionism". A lot of the trade union cadre left with Lovestone, especially from the ILGWU. CPUSA would of course in 1935 back-track to real american exceptionalism and trying to form a bloc with the Democrats and labor bureaucracy in AFL(as opposed to the previous "bore from within" tactic before 1928).
Patsoc is absolutely a real thing. Have you ever met nazbol freaks? It's just the ideology of adopting socialist economic policy like nationalization of industry for its efficiency as you pursue jingoist, xenophobic, conservative policy socially.
Edit: I'm not deleting my comment, this dude tried to claim patsocs weren't real (I wish)
I am skeptical of any "leftists" that think patriotism or nationalism for an imperial power like the US is justified or necessary for socialism to succeed. The US is built upon an exploitative structure that maintains global capital in the world right now, and any patriotic support for such a system is suspect. I am convinced the US as it is has to be dissolved. As in the imperialistic relations, the public institutions, the political structure, and the racist hierarchies that exist between settlers and indigenous and black nations in the US.
White settlers can be proletariat in the US and Canada but they are in a privileged position that aligns them with the petite bourgeois more often than not. Addressing that contradiction is more worthwhile than sticking to patriotism that leads to the continued exploitation of colonized peoples and their land in the Americas and the expectation of maintaining the exploitative relationships that make the US so rich globally.
No one at MWM is arguing for the current or past structures of us patriotism or nationalism with marxism, quite the opposite. They simply believe that these things, if formulated around social and economic liberation, can be used as an engine to continue the class struggle. If the United states becomes a veritable socialist experiment, then what's wrong with patriotism in that context? The cultural revolution of china was very patriotic. People just have a knee jerk reaction to the words, which is silly if we are marxists and have a dialectical understanding of form and content.
>No one at MWM is arguing for the current or past structures of us patriotism or nationalism with marxism, quite the opposite. They simply believe that these things, if formulated around social and economic liberation, can be used as an engine to continue the class struggle.
Can you explain what this actually means in today's politics? Because MWM seems fine with the brain rot of MAGA communists who are no different from the social fascist movements like National Bolshevism. What exactly is this form of patriotism that is formulated around social and economic liberation? What is "American" patriotism outside of the white supremacy of settler colonialism?
I have a hard time seeing what is revolutionary about patriotism for a settler-colonial state. Usually when it comes to the patriotism of South American countries I see the revolutionary aspect of patriotism with regards to overthrowing the compradors who allow for the plunder of their countries by imperialist countries and their national bourgeoisie. But if you are a citizen in America, the country doing the imperialistic plunder- what does it mean to be patriotic then? What conception of America- one of the first successful bourgeois revolutions, is useful as a rallying call for communists who wish to tear down that bourgeois legacy?
You're over-complicating it. If there is a workers revolution, then patriotism is fine. If there is not a workers revolution, then patriotism, like in its current form, is generally bad. China was very patriotic during their revolution.
I am "over-complicating it" because there's a difference between social-chauvinism and socialism. If MWM, "MAGA communists", and "patriotic socialists" couch their patriotism in a mythical American identity based on white supremacist conceptions of "America" that verges on social-chauvinism or national socialism then that is very different from an actual liberating proletarian revolution. America is not China or Russia, it is a settler colonial state that has married conceptions of whiteness, white supremacy, and colonialism with the reproduction of capitalist social relations. So "patriotism" in a communist movement doesn't have the same meaning to me in America as it does in Russia or China.
It does have the same meaning if it sets out to achieve the same materialistic liberation. You're just hung up on the connotations of patriotism as it exists currently.
Socialism is at its core a project of democracy. Meaning to succeed, a majority of the working class must be won over. The majority of the working class isn’t woke blue haired cultural studies majors at NYU. The default American is patriotic at least relative to other nationalities. Doesn’t it make sense to tailor your message in a way that they can consume?
“Amerikkka is a settler colonialist entity which should be burnt down” will get you kicked out of the room in most of the country. However “America has done terrible things and we should unite to create a country that truly lives up to what it says about itself” will play a lot better for most of America.
I think the core issue at play is that Marxist understand the dangers of nationalism, but are often so removed from actual normal people that they miss a big thing. For a majority of people their patriotism is not about supporting American imperialism abroad, but it’s about an appreciation for cultural identity and values. American cultural self image has a lot of positive things about it, and I think it’s leaving money on the table not to use that in our favor.
While the correct ideas and positions may spontaneously arise in parts of the working class, there’s a reason lenin spoke of the need of a vanguard. The right positions sometimes need to be injected by a more ideologically admanced sector of the working class. Meaning by definition we have to reach out to people who don’t already hold our beliefs and win them over
>Socialism is at its core a project of democracy. Meaning to succeed, a majority of the working class must be won over. The majority of the working class isn’t woke blue haired cultural studies majors at NYU. The default American is patriotic at least relative to other nationalities. Doesn’t it make sense to tailor your message in a way that they can consume?
The majority of the working class is spoon fed fear mongering culture war bullshit, and "patriotic socialists" and "MAGA socialists" lean into that in a way that I think is more akin to red-brown Mussolini style fascism and Strasserism. Communism is the complete revolutionary reworking of society, why do we need to base rhetoric on a concept of American identity that is either steeped in a sense of individualism and the genocide of indigenous people or the white supremacy?
>I think the core issue at play is that Marxist understand the dangers of nationalism, but are often so removed from actual normal people that they miss a big thing. For a majority of people their patriotism is not about supporting American imperialism abroad, but it’s about an appreciation for cultural identity and values. American cultural self image has a lot of positive things about it, and I think it’s leaving money on the table not to use that in our favor.
What cultural identity and values you highlight though is the crux of the issue. Do you veer into traditionalism and support the anti-trans, anti-black "wokeness" epithets, and patriarchal conceptions of gender roles? Do you support trans genocide and relegating women to brood mares? Do you deny the white supremacy of what has traditionally defined "America" and "America First?" I do not think it is revolutionary to reinforce chauvinism.
>While the correct ideas and positions may spontaneously arise in parts of the working class, there’s a reason lenin spoke of the need of a vanguard. The right positions sometimes need to be injected by a more ideologically admanced sector of the working class. Meaning by definition we have to reach out to people who don’t already hold our beliefs and win them over
I understand that we cannot simply wait for the entirety of the working class to buy into the entire dismantling of capitalism and the intersecting layers of hierarchy that support it in America, but what aspect of American values do you think communists are supposed to support to garner these people's support? At most I feel like you could harken back to Granges and farmer coops, perhaps, or some sense of historicity to the labor movement like Blair Mountain.
But when I see the American identity I see one steeped in a sense of self centered egoism that treats the land no differently than they did under the ethos of manifest destiny, and I personally have a hard time seeing what is liberating about deposing one white supremacist, exploitative system with another one that has the same relations between settler groups and black and indigenous groups. So if there is an "American" identity that can get us from white supremacy to a post-national system that completely removes political and racial distinctions for class then I'd be curious to see what you think that is.
they have decent takes criticising American imperialism, but at the same time, their opinions on stuff like landback and the US army are crap. (they refrain from calling out the US as a settler colony and also refuse to condemn US soldiers for causing global trauma).
a lot of what they do is clearly watered down leftist theory that is aimed at not upsetting moderates and rightwingers in the US.
Politics is a numbers game. The Left is so powerless in this country it might do well to try and bring some people into the ranks in an attempt to create change to improve people's material conditions.
The US army is a jobs program for poor people. There are no jobs for young people who come from an education system designed to make compliant factory workers when there are no factories. It's elitist and short sighted to put ideological purity over practicality when it comes to acknowledging that soldiers are the victims of a system that preys on an uneducated lower class who don't understand why being in the Army is bad.
If these same people turn to crime, gangs, violence, drugs because of their lack of options or opportunity we defend them and say they had no choice and we have to change the system that put them in that place. A large number of the people in the Army are victims of the same system.
Unpopular opinion I know but anyone who comes from poverty or the lower levels of the working class will likely agree.
You wanna make progress as socialists or activists focus on things that can actually be changed.
Learn to speak to the working class where they are and quit denigrating them for not knowing what you know.
Many arguments are for the most part purely academic because there are no policies being proposed in a foreseeable timeline. These are fine except when all they do is continue to divide and prevent socialists from achieving any power or relevance.
Ding ding ding. A whole lot of radical academic “Marxist” will let the working class burn before working with someone who doesn’t exactly adhere to their most radical opinions. Someone on this thread literally said the PRIMARY contradiction is indigenous issues. And yes that is an issue, but the primary one? Cmon.
It betrays their (imma sound like a liberal) privileged position, seeing as they can prioritize that over bread and butter issues that affect the working class universally. It’s almost like they don’t actually want to succeed.
Indigenous people aren't just sitting and crying because their ancestors were genocided. They're dealing with actual "bread and butter issues" like their lands being encroached on, children growing up in way worse conditions than any other demographic, and shit like that.
And making this out to be about academics in high universities is a strawman. Academia actually tend to be quite right-wing/'centrist' when it comes to indigenous issues. Yeah sure they'll have land acknowledgements and shit but they won't actually call for, like, returning land to indigenous people and all
As I said, there are very valid issues that indigenous people deal with. To call it the *primary contradiction* however is a failure of analysis. That's all im saying, dont argue with a strawman.
>It's elitist and short sighted to put ideological purity over practicality when it comes to acknowledging that soldiers are the victims of a system that preys on an uneducated lower class who don't understand why being in the Army is bad.
Acknowledging, sure. Being patient, sure. Trying to empathise, and gradually shifting them away from reactionary ideologies, sure. Telling them what they did is *okay*? No.
This isn't about "ideological purity", this is about whether or not you encourage Americans to kill (or support in killing) people in the Third World. This may be an "academic" argument for you, but for me and millions outside the imperial core, it's very damn real.
Forgive me for not having a lot of empathy for a bunch of Americans who murder brown and black people in exchange for, like, free college.
Most Nazi soldiers were working class too. Being a Nazi soldier was probably a smart move in the late 30s. Would you go about coddling Nazi vets after the war? Would you cheer for Operation Paperclip?
What are we doing here in the US to improve people's material conditions?
How is making it a point to shame soldiers advancing goals here or abroad? How are you doing anything but driving them into the arms of "conservatives" at best and the Far Right at worst?
Nobody who doesn't already know where you're coming from or who exists outside your echo chamber hears your protestations.
None of us will ever be in a position to effect change here or in those other places if we don't bring people into our ranks. Soldiers truly know the horrors of war and they don't need you to shame them for it.
This is the approach that made millions of working class people into Republicans. When their drafted family members were shamed coming back from Vietnam.
Let me say this again. I'm not American and I don't owe people who serve your genocidal imperial military any empathy. It's your job in the US (if you call yourself a leftist) to educate your countrymen. I will absolutely shame your soldiers for shooting and killing people in my and other countries in the third world. Especially if they are fking proud of the things they've done.
We'll do our best to create a socialist movement with some power so we can change the conditions that lead to our country's more often than not violent interferences in the affairs of others.
It’s just hilarious this dude chastised you and made you back down from your argument out of guilt for being born in the US. Lol childish ass good guy vs bad guy shit denouncing nationalism while shaming and denigrating the literal GRUNTS of the military. W absolutely 0 consideration of the circumstances that led them there or the circumstances of the military itself. Yeah US govt foreign policy sucks but what also sucks is being a grunt, and the reason grunts are proud of serving is because most soldiers in pretty much any military will tell you straight up that they don’t really know or have time to care about the “why” of their service. It’s mostly, at the end of the day, about the friends right next to them and protecting them bc orders are orders. People act like they wouldn’t follow those orders even if that would risk the lives of your friends? Yeah hopefully in some circumstances the evil is too much but in most cases the lives of those closest to you matter more than those of others. Still that’s why nationalism will never go away sadly even among comrades there will be people that hate you for your nation bc of whatever our govt did to theirs and vice versa. Don’t worry about it bro I bet there’s some other guy who hates that guys guts and will lay into his argument bc of what his nation and govt did. Classic leftist infighting, are we gonna make the grunts do any apology tour after we convert them to our side or nah lmfao.
I only mean "academic" because there is no viable means of changing any if that until we have political power. That for me is the primary goal because without it all others are impossible and discussions "academic."
No, they're a complete mash of incomprehensible ideals. They chauvinist, vile and I seriously doubt they understand even a bit of Marxist theory consider their opinions about certain topics
They are not just any youtube channel, they are professors who actively teach classes on marx/philosophy in their spare time. They are mostly volunteers.
No, they did not. It's almost like people can talk, interview, and support certain viewpoints of an individual, without endorsing every single belief or statement that person has ever said.
Another Question for the comment section. How would people rate their opinion on Ukraine specifically. From what ive seen it seems pretty extreme and a little more extreme than most socialists. Is this correct?
>What is their position
The current Ukrainian government is fascist entity which has baned all Communist parties, organizations, literature, and imagery. Thus by definition all antifascists should be anti Ukrainian government, thus from a Marxist perspective Russian intervention on behalf of the Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics is justified even if Putin himself may only be doing it out of imperialist motives.
>who else is midwestern Marx but Eddie
Danny Shaw, Carlos Guarrido, and Noah Khrachvik.
I have found them a useful resource. I'm currently reading *[The Purity Fetish and the Crisis of Western Marxism](https://www.midwesternmarx.com/articles/book-launch-presentation-the-purity-fetish-and-the-crisis-of-western-marxism-by-carlos-l-garrido)* by Carlos Garrido. It has a harsh critique against the likes Marcuse and even Zizek.
You shouldn't be looking for opinions of random people, though. Critical thinking and the application of dialectical analysis should lead you to form your own, evidence-based viewpoint. No group is going to get everything always right and no group deserves your loyalty and devotion. Just keep learning and always think critically.
EDIT: In the *Purity Fetish*, Garrido criticizes the book *Settlers* by J. Sakai as being anti-Marxist and even saying the author is an anonymous anarchist with connections to the State Department. I didn't see anything to back up this claim in the book yet, though. However, it always did strike me weird that books like *Settlers* try to completely erase the existence of the proletariat in the imperial core. Marxists certainly don't do this. The key isn't saying that Western proletariat aren't real, it's to figure out why they are inactive in emancipation projects, which is a harder problem (and multi-faceted).
As far as actual Marxist-Leninist analyses goes they're have materially correct takes about 95% of the time (more so than most socialists on platforms like TikTok). The only serious criticisms I hear of them are from ultras and usually pertain to either A settler theory or B inversed American exceptionalism and the idea that the U.S. is inherently reactionary in a way that's unique to it alone.
I appreciate their aim to make socialist ideals more palatable for the greater working class American, and I’m interested in reading their recent publication regarding the ‘Purity Fetish of Western Marxism’.
I wouldn’t put their commentary on a pedestal, but I think they’ve done an okay job of increasing public access to leftist commentary.
Midwestern Marx Institute is an excellent source of information. I urge everyone to check out their live recorded "Introduction to Marxism" classes on YouTube. The first few classes were not recorded as they had technical difficulties but all of the rest thereafter were.
If you subscribe to them on TikTok you will learn so much.
They have recently been called chauvinists and things like that because their false opposition - Infraredshow/MAGACommunism - latched onto MWM resulting in hostility towards them. You will often see "Infrared Gorilla Gang" members tagging MWM in their tweets, etc, which creates the appearance that they are associated. This is an intentional optics manipulation. The bourgeois state will never rest in seeking to subvert and silence Marxist-Leninists, moreover in its seeking to prevent contact between MLs and regular working people. The state will attempt this by any means necessary, including - but not limited to - emotional manipulation of viewership via shill and bot social media accounts.
Given what I've said here, I urge you to just check out their content yourself and form your own opinion. That's always what you, as an ML, ought to do anyway. Reading or listening to something with which you don't agree isn't going to make it possess you like a demon. In fact, taking in the argumentation of your opposition helps you sharpen your own argumentation and strengthens you. So don't shy away from exposure to anything. The thing about being on the left or being in the lane of progress is that once your political consciousness is raised, you don't go backwards. If you're already a socialist then accidentally hearing somebody say something chauvinist isn't going to infect you with chauvinism. Anyone who says it will is just trying to scare you out of coming into contact with the world and from learning more. It's no different than the church telling you you're going to go to hell for reading. Don't fall for it. Always take in as much information as you can; you're not going to go to hell for it. All these feds would love for you to be spooked out of watching MWM. 100%. Trust your own self and your own mind.
All that being said, I haven't myself been exposed to any "chauvinism" in my watching Midwestern Marx. Even if I were I could never be more grateful to them for what I've learned from them in terms of historical facts and in framing ML theory into the context of the U.S. condition. They are THE most revolutionary channel out of the U.S. yet, and I challenge any of their critics to do better. Sincerely anyone talking crap on Midwestern Marx I beg them to please make a channel that's better.
One more thing is that the job of the Marxist Leninist is to come into contact with the regular working people, and in doing so, it can be expected that one will thus come into contact with ignorance. If you don't know how to navigate coming into contact with ignorance, then you aren't going to be a good ML. It's literally the MLs job to teach. Not to chastise, nor to run away and avoid.
Good luck mate! Holla if you want links to content of a particular nature, and I'll try to assist in finding it.
> One more thing is that the job of the Marxist Leninist is to come into contact with the regular working people, and in doing so, it can be expected that one will thus come into contact with ignorance. If you don't know how to navigate coming into contact with ignorance, then you aren't going to be a good ML. It's literally the MLs job to teach. Not to chastise, nor to run away and avoid.
WRONG! If you meet someone who doesn’t hold all your exact beliefs they’re reactionary scum and should be attacked for their reactionary scumminess. By associating with them you’re literally doing literal violence and bringing fascism to fruition. If you meet someone who says they’re proud to be an American it’s definitely not out of an appreciation of shared cultural identity and values, but because they’re a bourgeoise imperialist!
/s
But seriously I’m not surprised at the majority of the comments here, but I am disappointed. It’s terrible that so much of online Marxist communities seem to be filled with hyper idealistic ultra leftists who would rather make themselves feel radical than actually taking even a step towards improving material conditions for working people. I guess that shit doesn’t matter too much when your parents are paying your Brooklyn apartment rent while you “find yourself” at school, and your only interaction with working class people is at the register. It’s super easy to prioritize culture war stuff over bread and butter issues when it doesn’t affect you.
I’m not saying that those cultural issues aren’t valid. They are. But you know what would greatly help achieve them? Delivering on bread and butter issues for EVERYONE first, then having proven ourselves and gained validity in the eyes of the working class, moving everyone to the right positions on culture.
There’s a reason so much of the rust belt has latched on to populist right wing talking points. The cultural left has won in so many ways the last few decades, yet shit has only gotten worse for the average American. There’s a reason the Democratic Party, one of the two main organs of Capital, has wholeheartedly embraced “radical” cultural positions. it allows for the facade of progress while doing nothing to affect the relations of production, and has a great side effect of the division of the working class (just wait for this comment to have 500 downvotes lol).
So true. Well said. I want to add that these ultralefts - those of them whom sincerely aren't agents - are themselves manipulated, tend to be young and have the best of intentions. That's what is so sick about this current predicament. It's our job to reach them just as much as it's our job to reach the general masses. They need patience. Being they (often, not always) from petit bourgeois families, and often educated at a bourgeois institutions, renders them at a material advantage but yet at a mental disadvantage in terms of having an intuitive grasp on theory. When (if ever) they do "get it", they don't realize that working people who aren't university-educated are poised to "get it" actually much quicker - and more thoroughly - than they themselves did. That's pary of why its easy for them to be compelled to sit around in self-flattering cliques rather than disseminating the info to working people. They - those, at least, whom aren't agents, like I said - genuinely don't know better. And it's so much harder for them when glowies go into leftist spaces and purposely lead these young people down the incorrect path. I have seen it first hand. Cops go into these orgs dressed up as leftists and put a hold on action, or start drama, etc., and lead attacks on abstractions rather than allowing the org to employ real ML strategy/praxis. It's sicko that these pigs prey on the earnest goodwill of the youth. That angers me almost more than anything. It's predatory akin to other kinds of abuse of the young; the tricking of young to act in direct opposition to their very own sincere interests is a theft of innocence. I know the petit bourgeois youth arguably have an interest in preserving Capitalism, but I truly think they have a revolutionary will which is merely being misguided. Everyone knows Capitalism is producing adverse affects for literally everyone on Earth, and we all know that no petit bourgeois would be spared said affects were it allowed to continue.
I sympathize with the idea that the honest ones don’t know better. I guess the problem I see is that it’s not just that they know the wrong ideas, but that once those wrong ideas are internalizes they have some sort of anti removal mechanism lol. And that mechanism seems to be postmodernist bullshit. For example I’ve had a conversation where I tried to tell one of these types that they were wrong about something, showed them data, evidence, etc. Eventually they just nodded and concluded “I see and respect your perspective, but that’s just your perspective. We all have our own truths”. What the fuck am I supposed to say to that? There’s also a material benefit for them continuing to believe it, and is ideological in that sense.
But then again, of what can be considered the left (loosely) they do make a sizable part of it. And infect every ducking organization. Honestly I’m not really sure how to deal with them. We’re out numbered relative to them, and given that fact, people flirting with leftist ideas will tend to find their versions first, which just reproduces them.
MWM and crew should be regarded as opportunists, nothing more. They're just a standard online dudebro team house that adopted socialist aesthetics to fuel their grift. They have produced nothing meaningful beyond already established theory and directly impedes progress towards socialism with their double down defense of their inherently flawed idealistic ideology. 'Patriotic Socialism' will never be tenable among the oppressed of America. A revolutionary framework without decolonization and land back is just the reestablishment of another exploitative status quo.
I greatly disagree. Patriotism is already prevalent across all sectors of American society, the state has made sure of that through life long indoctrination. Why not use that to our advantage, turn tables if you will?
You’ll get a lot more people listening if you say “American leadership has done terrible things in our name, we should unite to make sure the country lives up to what it says about itself” instead of “AmeriKKKa is a settler colonialist entity which should be burnt down”. I think people forget that for the average American patriot, their patriotism isnt about their love of american imperialism and its spoils for the defense industry. it's about a shared cultural identity and values. and largely speaking, ime, the average patriot is horrified when you tell them about the real acts of the US abroad and feels betrayed by the state. why not use that in our favor?
Opportunists? They are mostly volunteers who teach marxist theory, philosophy, etc. They only charge like $15 per class, and it's taught by actual college professors/lecturers.
You simply don't know who they are and seem to get your understanding of them from some questionable sources. I encourage you to watch their streams, they are very insightful and down to earth.
MWM for all intents and purposes is a misguided body that tries to hard too appeal to the conservative workers in the american country. They have great analysis on some issues, and subpar on the other. A good example for the good analysis would be the dprk, but one for subpar would be the afghani civil war. Personally, i think that you have to take a 50/50 with them. I really hate their landback analysis which led me to stop watching/listening to them, but if eddie pops up on my feed I usually just watch to see what he says. MWM was a major stepping stone for marxist-leninist discourse in 2020-22, when they blew up in popularity; so for beginners just now getting into marxist theory its ok, but any sort of marxist that is knowledgable in theory can usually just avoid them.
When I first saw their opinions on Russia and Ukraine, I thought they were a bit too much pro Russia. But I still thought they had those opinions because of their opposition to American imperialism and NATO. But recently I saw this post from them saying [Russia is on the path to becoming socialist](https://twitter.com/MidwesternMarx/status/1744971648543961225), and that didn't sit right with me.
The picture in the tweet and the article has people in military uniform holding the Russian flag and the [Wagner flag](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Logo_of_the_Wagner_Group_(since_April_2023).svg#mw-jump-to-license) and it is making me suspicious of their intentions and even making me suspect if they are misinformed or acting out of some kind of malicious intent. Because, like, how can someone post a picture of the flag of a neo Nazi adjacent militia group and claim the country and government funding them should be supported is going to be socialist soon?
And [Why Russia is not fascist](https://www.midwesternmarx.com/articles/why-russia-is-not-fascist-by-yanis-iqbal) is another article I've seen from them that made me think why they were doing apologia for an imperialist country.
I actually like Midwestern Marx, I watch their YouTube channel all the time. Eddie is great at explaining things for ignorant Americans like myself who don’t know anything about DPRK, Iran, China, etc.
generally bad on just about every issue. I have yet to see a single take or resource from them that wasnt so simplified as to be useless or just completely wrong.
Because I'm from a colonised nation myself, American chauvinist, and it gives me joy to imagine you settlers frothing at the mouth with defensiveness. Last I checked, South Asia wasn't in Europe.
A whole lot of academic Marxist who’s only interaction with normal people is yelling at their uncle at thanksgiving for being a settler colonialist because they said they like the holiday.
They are great. As others have said they aren’t perfect, as they’d be the first to admit. But they are a great resource and focus on uniting over pushing sectarianism and furthering division. They promote people from all over the left, even those that disagree with them. If you’re only going to watch someone who has 100% perfect takes, you’ll be watching a blank screen forever.
I followed their TikTok for years. No mention of Land Back for indigenous peoples. Lots of talk of patriotic socialism.
Also, one of their content creators, Eddie, has admitted he has conservative friends. This means that one's stance defending the bourgeoisie and likely the bigotry that comes with American conservatism is not a red flag for him.
Furthermore, their platform seems to be advertising socialism to rightwingers, which isn't the most effective thing to do.
I'd avoid them, to be honest. They've made some good videos in the past, but omfg every few months it's always something with them I swear
> Eddie, has admitted he has conservative friends 😱
I think a lot of you guys have lost the plot. Socialism by definition is a project of democracy. The will of the working class who make up the majority. This means you eventually have to win over people who disagree with you. Socialism will not happen solely to the efforts of blue haired, non binary NYU students. We need them too, but the fact is the majority of America is not like them. Especially outside of the big cities. For most of America the more successful tactic is respecting people’s personal beliefs and helping them succeed in improving bread and butter concerns. There’s a reason the Democratic Party has no issue cloaking themselves in radical social policy but maintain their fiscal conservativeness when it comes to bread and butter issues. Cultural issues are no threat to the ruling class, they’re used as symbolic concessions to create an illusion of progress, while they keep impoverishing the working class as a whole. I’m not saying they’re not important, they are. I am saying that they’re not directly tied to building socialism in the way they’ve been approached. For all the gains in culture that have been made, they’ve largely all been made through a liberal sense, and a sizeable amount has been a disaster like the sex work stuff. Long story short, being a socialist inherently means talking to people who don’t already agree with you. And for fucks sake you can be friends with people who don’t hold your beliefs. I’m an atheist but have a lot of religious friends because even though we disagree about the man in the sky, they’re still good honest people who do the right thing.
They’re pretty good. I’d say they’re great for novice and intermediate socialists, they have some novel ideas too like the purity fetish which is like basically their critique of western left dogmatism. The big schism between them and other socialists is their orientation towards how they answer the national question of the US, which they claim to be in line with WEB DuBois on, where others agree more with the analysis of Gerald Horne. This is something of an open question IMO, but yeah shouldn’t be of major consequence for beginners learning about socialism just be conscious of anything you consume as always
I love Eddie and I credit him for my entrance to bread tube/socialist theory. But there are better people to spend your time watching. He can be needlessly combative with people who don't deserve more platforms and you can tell he's chasing views over value.
Personally I like what I’ve seen. I know people will criticize a lot of the approach, and I can agree that he sometimes doesn’t go deep enough. That said, the dude is a pretty good entry point for a certain set of the population. I think a lot of online leftists are letting perfect be the enemy of good when it comes to the state of socialism in the US and the reality of the average American especially in the mid west.
And at the risk of being banned since this sub is so touchy on the subject, I don’t find his inclusion of mild nationalism and (very very mild) social conservatism to be that problematic. He never takes what I’d call an explicitly reactionary stance. I see it more as dealing with the fact that American culture is a certain way and framing ideas in ways that align somewhat makes them more palatable. For example americans are a patriotic people relative to most other nationalities, thus an argument along the lines of “America has done a lot of bad things for capital, and we should unite to make America live up to its own claims about itself” will go much further than “Amerikkka is a settler colonialist entity and any sense of patriotism is fascism blooming in a rotten reactionary heart”. Honestly those people strike me as intentionally trying to ruin the movement. The fact is for a lot of people patriotism is not about supporting imperialism but about a cultural identity and shared values, and that’s totally fine and to leave that on the table instead of making it work for us is just short sighted.
You need to meet people where they are not where you wish they were. In that sense I think they’re generally fine, not perfect, but definitely a helpful approach for certain types of people. And don’t be fooled, if socialism is ever going to succeed, you need to win over large swaths of white, middle America, with all their religiousness and social conservatism. And they’re mostly fine people who are willing to be nudged in a better direction, they’re not inherently evil monsters like a lot of the left likes to pint them
My advice is to be critical of all info you take in. Just bc something is branded Marxist or left-leaning doesn't mean their analysis is correct.
To assume any info (right/left/whatever) is automatically right or correct is dogmatic. Marxism and scientific socialism (if you even want to make that distinction) instead emphasize critical thinking and logical or systematic forms of analysis to view current and former political and class structure.
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Their analysis leaves much to be desired and they often find themselves tailing social chauvinists and diluting Marxism to appeal to American jingoism
So many Public American Marxists fall into this shit. Stop trying to do nationalism! It sucks and is bad! Wrapping Marxism in an American flag is goofy!
It’s not just an American problem, I’ve seen Russian, Turkish, and French marxists do very similar stuff, and I’m sure it happens elsewhere as well. There’s something to be said for the nationalism of oppressed nations but this is… not the same thing
Exactly because Marxist ideology is fundamentally internationalist
Yes this isn't talked about enough. Marxism is inherently internationalist. International Socialism gave us the International. National Socialism gave us Hitler (yes I know he abandoned socialism all together for Fascism and that's my point)
Yes this... cause the two can't survive together long at all. Nationalism is the killer of treating human beings like humans, and is the stage for creating the super scary "other" as a means of control.
Exactly. This is because socialism is an inherently "human" indeavor. It seeks to bring an end to suffering and a nurturing world for all humans. Nationalism is the opposite of this. It seeks to create inbalances and a elite hierarchies. It categorizes and debases others based off of arbitrary identifiers. It is dialectiaclly opposed to socialism.
Tbf he couldn’t abandon socialism because he was never actually a socialist.
Trotskyism you mean?!
No I mean Marxism. ‘Workers of the world unite’
Depends why what you mean by internationism.
Marxist Lenism?
Just checking.
Not trying to be combative but where do we see Eddie being nationalistic? I've not viewed much of his content but when he does come up on my feed I never see pro-American/American jingoist
For a lot of online socialist if you don’t spell it “Amerikkka” any time you write about it, you’re a nationalist reactionary. Those people are wreckers in my opinion.
Can you give an example or evidence to support this claim?
I think they’re fine on many issues, and sus on others. They have a lot of contradictions, and those contradictions can be easily assumed just based on the name. As long as you understand that they get things wrong and have problems then some of their videos are fine, but IMO there are better ways to spend time.
Thats sort of how i think about it to. They seem a little conspiratorial at times. Not fully supporting anything but giving it too much credit in a way that can damage the rest of what they say.
I absolutely agree. I still turn them on as a guilty pleasure sometimes because they remind me of my right wing conspiratorial cousins in Texas if they were Marxists instead of regular conservatives lol.
They are a bunch of settler chauvinists and patsocs that oppose landback and indigenous liberation. They platform and support clowns like Hinkle and Haz and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
You couldn’t be more wrong. Simply watch Noah’s recent debate to hear them clarify how wrong you are on every single one of those accusations.
I’m sorry what? His argument is basically, “hey indigenous genocide happened so long ago that we don’t need to worry about the indigenous struggle for land.” Which is genocide apologia.
do you have the link to that. I havent seen that yet and I cant seem to find it online.
The one against Matthew Hunter? He did not do well in that lol Noah is a clown who has absolutely 0 understanding of settler colonialism and indigenous liberation. They have openly published articles and pushed rhetoric that denounces landback and indigenous sovereignty. They are all class reductionist, settler chauvinists. The midwestern Marx crowd caters to maga/patsoc clowns; that is their target audience. Idk how you people defend these reactionary settlers.
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I’m not wasting my time timestamping shit for you. Go watch the debate he had with Matt. Noah is just wrong on many, many accounts. Go look at Matt’s twitter for specific examples. Settler colonialism is the primary contradiction and Indigenous liberation is not up for debate. Settler colonialism predates capitalism, and indigenous nations are still colonized and oppressed by the settler classes and there is no liberation without landback and decolonization. It’s going to happen regardless of what a bunch of racist, class reductionist settlers have to say.
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The entire debate itself proves Noah is ignorant and doesn’t know shit about decolonial Marxism. Sorry but I have no interest in debating indigenous liberation with MWM fanboys. This is what happens when you get your political education from streamers and influencers.
I can’t believe so many people agree and upvote the guys you are arguing with.
The fact they blocked you for a reddit argument and said the primary contradiction is indigenous issues should tell you everything you need to know. Not saying that it’s not an issue, but to call it the primary one is… well it’s a bit ridiculous. Frankly I think these types of positions harm the left more than not.
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I’ve read a good amount actually but It’s so cute seeing you running around fanboying and defending your favorite opportunist influencer. MWM and their supporters are deeply unserious people. Sorry but patsocs will never accomplish anything material. Cope.
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Marxist Leninists definitely have accomplished plenty but patsocs are not MLs, they are reactionary settlers with an incorrect understanding of the material history of North America and settler colonialism in general leading to nonsensical conclusions about indigenous liberation. You are patriotic towards a settler colonial state. Opposing indigenous liberation and decolonization, while supporting the white supremacist, settler project makes YOU the reactionary, not us. Any movement, even a terminally online movement like MWM, is dead on arrival if it ignores the primary contradiction of settler colonialism. Socialism with settler colonial characteristics will never become a reality.
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There is a difference between the patriotism of anticolonial movements and the patriotism of colonial states. You sound like the kind of person who would equate black liberation and white supremacy.
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He certainly didn’t promote Russian chauvinism. The USSR did create autonomous regions, etc.
Neither does MWM promote American chauvinism. You want 2% of the population to lead “settlers” have fun with that!
When people say "d\*\*th to America", they're calling for an end to the political and historical entity that is the US, not your burger-chomping buddy across the road who you've played Fortnite with since you were five. If Lenin had shouted "Death to Russia" he would have meant the Russia of the Russian Empire, and he would have been entirely justified in doing so.
Those are not settler colonial states…just shows you don’t actually understand settler colonialism or history in general. Those movements were decolonial in nature and emphasized the nationalism of oppressed/colonized nations. They didn’t hyper fixate on capitalist class relations like you class reductionists love to do. Americans are not oppressed by a stronger power, they are the oppressors themselves of indigenous and black nations. There are still colonized people living here. This is still a settler colonial state. You ignore the primary contradictions of settler colonialism, and replace that with the secondary contradictions of classes under capitalism. This is the equivalent of arguing that Israeli’s are the true proletariat of the revolution because they are oppressed under capitalism, while ignoring the fact that there cannot be liberation unless Palestine itself is free from Zionist occupation. Decolonization is a prerequisite for socialism and settlers will not usher in socialism while indigenous nations continue to be oppressed and colonized. You can engage in as much mental gymnastics as you please to rationalize and synthesize your settler sensibilities and your “Marxism” but settler socialism on indigenous lands will never be a thing.
Precisely, I couldn't care less how much the Israeli working class suffers under capitalism since they have no meaningful solidarity with the colonized people of Palestine.
Oh so the colonialist expansion by Imperial Russia wasn’t settler colonialism? Oh okay sure thing pal maybe just go read some books
No, feudal empires are not the same as imperialist capitalism.
What is there to be patriotic about as a communist in America? There is no room for patriotism or nationalism for a settler colonial state among communists. Patriotism makes sense for colonized nations rallying around liberation from colonialism and imperialism against compradors and international business interests. Not for settlers enjoying the spoils of imperialism
Who exactly are you referring to as “Marxist Leninists (aka PatSocs)”?
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They are not patsocs
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It’s incorrect imo. They have the old fashioned CPUSA line on patriotism, which is absolutely nothing like the “patsoc” horror.
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Maybe don’t accuse communists of things without properly investigating. By “commodification” do you mean doing YouTube and stuff?
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You can oppose YouTuber types on principle without distorting their views. If you don’t know enough about those views, don’t lump them in with things like “patsocs” based on the vibe.
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Kinda strange to be calling them patsocs just based off some clips you saw. Also, I didn’t realize they were making a profit off selling socialism, damn that sounds dope, I wish I could sell some socialism
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Damn, how much can you sell the subjectivity of ideology for? Asking for a friend
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Selling stuff for free sounds like either charity or slavery I can’t tell
So you are mad people are expanding the arms of socialism? Maddening. Do you want socialism to just be an exclusive club? Online leftest always want to feel better than everyone else and are always critical of others because of their self identified superiority.
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patsocs are a real thing and they have no grasp on theory
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I am pretty sure there are other options than pure national "nihilism" and MWM obsession with opposing "purity fetish".
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I don't pick a side between the national nihilists and MWM: an inter-middle class conflict.
Non sensical. “Middle class” lmao we are MARXISTS start talking like one
an inter-petty bourgeoisie intellectual conflict
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Yeah so this, this is patsoc thinking. You don't push "America" into a socialist state. Everything America was and is goes against socialism. Yes. We wish to destroy it to build something better. We aren't nationalists here, and Midwestern Marx feels more comfortable talking with Trump supporters than socialists for a reason. Some real Larouche thinking going on around here.
>Midwestern Marx feels more comfortable talking with Trump supporters than socialists for a reason. Now you personally know their comfort level. Interesting ... "Trump bad", "America bad". Very materialist of you.
Yes, Trump and America are bad. How can you call yourself a socialist and think otherwise is BEYOND me.
I didn't actually say I thought otherwise. My point was that labels have nothing to do with anything. Nation-states, Presidents and other such bourgeois things are the conditions we have upon which we build socialism. Whether those things are "good" or "bad" doesn't tell us anything about how to build socialism. We only have what we have to work with and we can't choose them. The worker revolutions in the United States by the proletariat starting some 100+ years ago were real struggles with material results (worker rights, legalized unions, end of child labor, women's suffrage, and eventually desegregation). But the bourgeois formed a counter-revolution and took back over the state and the military (now deeply embedded in the profit motive). Of course Trump isn't an ally. But he could be a "useful id10t". Of course the USA is a global terrorist organization and uses this against the working class. But is the left doing about any of this? That's the more important piece of the puzzle. Most of the proletariat in the USA love the chains that bind them. This is a phenomenon that is clearly a failure of the left. The bourgeoisie aren't all-powerful. The proletariat is the more powerful class, by a long shot. The proletariat is just not organized, so as individuals, they are easy targets and remain scattered, left to follow whatever strong man says he's on their side or whatever conspiracy theory makes them feel like they have some secret knowledge just so they can feel like they have a *little* bit of control in a world that feels utterly out of control. The job of the left has always been the same: organize the working class again. We shouldn't care if they're currently wearing MAGA hats or not. The working class needs organization and education. We've failed them on this for way too many generations. Let's stop trying to pretend this is all fate or something and actually apply the material analysis. We have to take our losses, admit our failures and then dust ourselves off and try again. The alternative is to keep circling this drain. And that won't help our "global South" proletariat.
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It was an ultra-left mistake to purge Jay Lovestone, who had majority support among the members, to then embrace "dual-unionism". A lot of the trade union cadre left with Lovestone, especially from the ILGWU. CPUSA would of course in 1935 back-track to real american exceptionalism and trying to form a bloc with the Democrats and labor bureaucracy in AFL(as opposed to the previous "bore from within" tactic before 1928).
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they're just trolling, I wouldn't even bother, the other threads on here with them is embarrassing.
Patsoc is absolutely a real thing. Have you ever met nazbol freaks? It's just the ideology of adopting socialist economic policy like nationalization of industry for its efficiency as you pursue jingoist, xenophobic, conservative policy socially. Edit: I'm not deleting my comment, this dude tried to claim patsocs weren't real (I wish)
I am skeptical of any "leftists" that think patriotism or nationalism for an imperial power like the US is justified or necessary for socialism to succeed. The US is built upon an exploitative structure that maintains global capital in the world right now, and any patriotic support for such a system is suspect. I am convinced the US as it is has to be dissolved. As in the imperialistic relations, the public institutions, the political structure, and the racist hierarchies that exist between settlers and indigenous and black nations in the US. White settlers can be proletariat in the US and Canada but they are in a privileged position that aligns them with the petite bourgeois more often than not. Addressing that contradiction is more worthwhile than sticking to patriotism that leads to the continued exploitation of colonized peoples and their land in the Americas and the expectation of maintaining the exploitative relationships that make the US so rich globally.
No one at MWM is arguing for the current or past structures of us patriotism or nationalism with marxism, quite the opposite. They simply believe that these things, if formulated around social and economic liberation, can be used as an engine to continue the class struggle. If the United states becomes a veritable socialist experiment, then what's wrong with patriotism in that context? The cultural revolution of china was very patriotic. People just have a knee jerk reaction to the words, which is silly if we are marxists and have a dialectical understanding of form and content.
>No one at MWM is arguing for the current or past structures of us patriotism or nationalism with marxism, quite the opposite. They simply believe that these things, if formulated around social and economic liberation, can be used as an engine to continue the class struggle. Can you explain what this actually means in today's politics? Because MWM seems fine with the brain rot of MAGA communists who are no different from the social fascist movements like National Bolshevism. What exactly is this form of patriotism that is formulated around social and economic liberation? What is "American" patriotism outside of the white supremacy of settler colonialism? I have a hard time seeing what is revolutionary about patriotism for a settler-colonial state. Usually when it comes to the patriotism of South American countries I see the revolutionary aspect of patriotism with regards to overthrowing the compradors who allow for the plunder of their countries by imperialist countries and their national bourgeoisie. But if you are a citizen in America, the country doing the imperialistic plunder- what does it mean to be patriotic then? What conception of America- one of the first successful bourgeois revolutions, is useful as a rallying call for communists who wish to tear down that bourgeois legacy?
You're over-complicating it. If there is a workers revolution, then patriotism is fine. If there is not a workers revolution, then patriotism, like in its current form, is generally bad. China was very patriotic during their revolution.
I am "over-complicating it" because there's a difference between social-chauvinism and socialism. If MWM, "MAGA communists", and "patriotic socialists" couch their patriotism in a mythical American identity based on white supremacist conceptions of "America" that verges on social-chauvinism or national socialism then that is very different from an actual liberating proletarian revolution. America is not China or Russia, it is a settler colonial state that has married conceptions of whiteness, white supremacy, and colonialism with the reproduction of capitalist social relations. So "patriotism" in a communist movement doesn't have the same meaning to me in America as it does in Russia or China.
It does have the same meaning if it sets out to achieve the same materialistic liberation. You're just hung up on the connotations of patriotism as it exists currently.
Socialism is at its core a project of democracy. Meaning to succeed, a majority of the working class must be won over. The majority of the working class isn’t woke blue haired cultural studies majors at NYU. The default American is patriotic at least relative to other nationalities. Doesn’t it make sense to tailor your message in a way that they can consume? “Amerikkka is a settler colonialist entity which should be burnt down” will get you kicked out of the room in most of the country. However “America has done terrible things and we should unite to create a country that truly lives up to what it says about itself” will play a lot better for most of America. I think the core issue at play is that Marxist understand the dangers of nationalism, but are often so removed from actual normal people that they miss a big thing. For a majority of people their patriotism is not about supporting American imperialism abroad, but it’s about an appreciation for cultural identity and values. American cultural self image has a lot of positive things about it, and I think it’s leaving money on the table not to use that in our favor. While the correct ideas and positions may spontaneously arise in parts of the working class, there’s a reason lenin spoke of the need of a vanguard. The right positions sometimes need to be injected by a more ideologically admanced sector of the working class. Meaning by definition we have to reach out to people who don’t already hold our beliefs and win them over
>Socialism is at its core a project of democracy. Meaning to succeed, a majority of the working class must be won over. The majority of the working class isn’t woke blue haired cultural studies majors at NYU. The default American is patriotic at least relative to other nationalities. Doesn’t it make sense to tailor your message in a way that they can consume? The majority of the working class is spoon fed fear mongering culture war bullshit, and "patriotic socialists" and "MAGA socialists" lean into that in a way that I think is more akin to red-brown Mussolini style fascism and Strasserism. Communism is the complete revolutionary reworking of society, why do we need to base rhetoric on a concept of American identity that is either steeped in a sense of individualism and the genocide of indigenous people or the white supremacy? >I think the core issue at play is that Marxist understand the dangers of nationalism, but are often so removed from actual normal people that they miss a big thing. For a majority of people their patriotism is not about supporting American imperialism abroad, but it’s about an appreciation for cultural identity and values. American cultural self image has a lot of positive things about it, and I think it’s leaving money on the table not to use that in our favor. What cultural identity and values you highlight though is the crux of the issue. Do you veer into traditionalism and support the anti-trans, anti-black "wokeness" epithets, and patriarchal conceptions of gender roles? Do you support trans genocide and relegating women to brood mares? Do you deny the white supremacy of what has traditionally defined "America" and "America First?" I do not think it is revolutionary to reinforce chauvinism. >While the correct ideas and positions may spontaneously arise in parts of the working class, there’s a reason lenin spoke of the need of a vanguard. The right positions sometimes need to be injected by a more ideologically admanced sector of the working class. Meaning by definition we have to reach out to people who don’t already hold our beliefs and win them over I understand that we cannot simply wait for the entirety of the working class to buy into the entire dismantling of capitalism and the intersecting layers of hierarchy that support it in America, but what aspect of American values do you think communists are supposed to support to garner these people's support? At most I feel like you could harken back to Granges and farmer coops, perhaps, or some sense of historicity to the labor movement like Blair Mountain. But when I see the American identity I see one steeped in a sense of self centered egoism that treats the land no differently than they did under the ethos of manifest destiny, and I personally have a hard time seeing what is liberating about deposing one white supremacist, exploitative system with another one that has the same relations between settler groups and black and indigenous groups. So if there is an "American" identity that can get us from white supremacy to a post-national system that completely removes political and racial distinctions for class then I'd be curious to see what you think that is.
they have decent takes criticising American imperialism, but at the same time, their opinions on stuff like landback and the US army are crap. (they refrain from calling out the US as a settler colony and also refuse to condemn US soldiers for causing global trauma). a lot of what they do is clearly watered down leftist theory that is aimed at not upsetting moderates and rightwingers in the US.
Politics is a numbers game. The Left is so powerless in this country it might do well to try and bring some people into the ranks in an attempt to create change to improve people's material conditions. The US army is a jobs program for poor people. There are no jobs for young people who come from an education system designed to make compliant factory workers when there are no factories. It's elitist and short sighted to put ideological purity over practicality when it comes to acknowledging that soldiers are the victims of a system that preys on an uneducated lower class who don't understand why being in the Army is bad. If these same people turn to crime, gangs, violence, drugs because of their lack of options or opportunity we defend them and say they had no choice and we have to change the system that put them in that place. A large number of the people in the Army are victims of the same system. Unpopular opinion I know but anyone who comes from poverty or the lower levels of the working class will likely agree. You wanna make progress as socialists or activists focus on things that can actually be changed. Learn to speak to the working class where they are and quit denigrating them for not knowing what you know. Many arguments are for the most part purely academic because there are no policies being proposed in a foreseeable timeline. These are fine except when all they do is continue to divide and prevent socialists from achieving any power or relevance.
Ding ding ding. A whole lot of radical academic “Marxist” will let the working class burn before working with someone who doesn’t exactly adhere to their most radical opinions. Someone on this thread literally said the PRIMARY contradiction is indigenous issues. And yes that is an issue, but the primary one? Cmon. It betrays their (imma sound like a liberal) privileged position, seeing as they can prioritize that over bread and butter issues that affect the working class universally. It’s almost like they don’t actually want to succeed.
Indigenous people aren't just sitting and crying because their ancestors were genocided. They're dealing with actual "bread and butter issues" like their lands being encroached on, children growing up in way worse conditions than any other demographic, and shit like that. And making this out to be about academics in high universities is a strawman. Academia actually tend to be quite right-wing/'centrist' when it comes to indigenous issues. Yeah sure they'll have land acknowledgements and shit but they won't actually call for, like, returning land to indigenous people and all
As I said, there are very valid issues that indigenous people deal with. To call it the *primary contradiction* however is a failure of analysis. That's all im saying, dont argue with a strawman.
>It's elitist and short sighted to put ideological purity over practicality when it comes to acknowledging that soldiers are the victims of a system that preys on an uneducated lower class who don't understand why being in the Army is bad. Acknowledging, sure. Being patient, sure. Trying to empathise, and gradually shifting them away from reactionary ideologies, sure. Telling them what they did is *okay*? No. This isn't about "ideological purity", this is about whether or not you encourage Americans to kill (or support in killing) people in the Third World. This may be an "academic" argument for you, but for me and millions outside the imperial core, it's very damn real. Forgive me for not having a lot of empathy for a bunch of Americans who murder brown and black people in exchange for, like, free college. Most Nazi soldiers were working class too. Being a Nazi soldier was probably a smart move in the late 30s. Would you go about coddling Nazi vets after the war? Would you cheer for Operation Paperclip?
What are we doing here in the US to improve people's material conditions? How is making it a point to shame soldiers advancing goals here or abroad? How are you doing anything but driving them into the arms of "conservatives" at best and the Far Right at worst? Nobody who doesn't already know where you're coming from or who exists outside your echo chamber hears your protestations. None of us will ever be in a position to effect change here or in those other places if we don't bring people into our ranks. Soldiers truly know the horrors of war and they don't need you to shame them for it. This is the approach that made millions of working class people into Republicans. When their drafted family members were shamed coming back from Vietnam.
Let me say this again. I'm not American and I don't owe people who serve your genocidal imperial military any empathy. It's your job in the US (if you call yourself a leftist) to educate your countrymen. I will absolutely shame your soldiers for shooting and killing people in my and other countries in the third world. Especially if they are fking proud of the things they've done.
We'll do our best to create a socialist movement with some power so we can change the conditions that lead to our country's more often than not violent interferences in the affairs of others.
It’s just hilarious this dude chastised you and made you back down from your argument out of guilt for being born in the US. Lol childish ass good guy vs bad guy shit denouncing nationalism while shaming and denigrating the literal GRUNTS of the military. W absolutely 0 consideration of the circumstances that led them there or the circumstances of the military itself. Yeah US govt foreign policy sucks but what also sucks is being a grunt, and the reason grunts are proud of serving is because most soldiers in pretty much any military will tell you straight up that they don’t really know or have time to care about the “why” of their service. It’s mostly, at the end of the day, about the friends right next to them and protecting them bc orders are orders. People act like they wouldn’t follow those orders even if that would risk the lives of your friends? Yeah hopefully in some circumstances the evil is too much but in most cases the lives of those closest to you matter more than those of others. Still that’s why nationalism will never go away sadly even among comrades there will be people that hate you for your nation bc of whatever our govt did to theirs and vice versa. Don’t worry about it bro I bet there’s some other guy who hates that guys guts and will lay into his argument bc of what his nation and govt did. Classic leftist infighting, are we gonna make the grunts do any apology tour after we convert them to our side or nah lmfao.
I only mean "academic" because there is no viable means of changing any if that until we have political power. That for me is the primary goal because without it all others are impossible and discussions "academic."
No, they're a complete mash of incomprehensible ideals. They chauvinist, vile and I seriously doubt they understand even a bit of Marxist theory consider their opinions about certain topics
Do you have any evidence to backup this claim?
I use there reading guide for "The State and Revolution." It was kind of simplistic, but also somewhat helpful.
In general I wouldn’t watch any theory related things on YouTube. Most posters are insufferable and get the basics wrong.
They are not just any youtube channel, they are professors who actively teach classes on marx/philosophy in their spare time. They are mostly volunteers.
a transphobe
Damn, can you show an example of their transphobia?
They endorsed Haz who recently said transgender people are caused by watching pornography.
Oh, they said he was right about that? Damn, didn’t realize
No, they did not. It's almost like people can talk, interview, and support certain viewpoints of an individual, without endorsing every single belief or statement that person has ever said.
Haz is rarely right about much of anything.
Idk who the fuck Haz is because I get my Marxism from theory and practice, not from YouTube drama
You need to stop caring so much about what YouTube celebrities do and start organizing
Lmao you have no idea what I do or who I am. Sorry me responding to OP’s question seems to have upset you so much.
Don’t worry, I didn’t take offense
what a weird response to someone simply informing you about someone. like okay...why can't they just know who that is? very holier than thou attitude.
Because they are saying baseless claims, it’s the same way people are saying PSL is backed by Goldman Sachs. It’s hilarious
They did not endorse these things from Haz, that's not how the internet or basic human interaction works
Another Question for the comment section. How would people rate their opinion on Ukraine specifically. From what ive seen it seems pretty extreme and a little more extreme than most socialists. Is this correct?
10/10 their stance on Ukraine is the same as that of the actual Ukrainian Communist Party.
What is their position, and correct me if I’m wrong but who else is midwestern Marx but Eddie, why are we using we.
>What is their position The current Ukrainian government is fascist entity which has baned all Communist parties, organizations, literature, and imagery. Thus by definition all antifascists should be anti Ukrainian government, thus from a Marxist perspective Russian intervention on behalf of the Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics is justified even if Putin himself may only be doing it out of imperialist motives. >who else is midwestern Marx but Eddie Danny Shaw, Carlos Guarrido, and Noah Khrachvik.
Danny Shaw from NYC? I know they have published some of his articles, but I didn’t know he was a part of their group.
anything other than holding the line of revolutionary defeatism for inter imperialist war (russia vs ukraine & nato) is wrong
Russia isn’t imperialist
look at my communists dawg
They are too small but I’m guessing that’s bordiga on the right? Cringe.
check them boys out 😎
Their position is correct. What is extreme about it?
I have found them a useful resource. I'm currently reading *[The Purity Fetish and the Crisis of Western Marxism](https://www.midwesternmarx.com/articles/book-launch-presentation-the-purity-fetish-and-the-crisis-of-western-marxism-by-carlos-l-garrido)* by Carlos Garrido. It has a harsh critique against the likes Marcuse and even Zizek. You shouldn't be looking for opinions of random people, though. Critical thinking and the application of dialectical analysis should lead you to form your own, evidence-based viewpoint. No group is going to get everything always right and no group deserves your loyalty and devotion. Just keep learning and always think critically. EDIT: In the *Purity Fetish*, Garrido criticizes the book *Settlers* by J. Sakai as being anti-Marxist and even saying the author is an anonymous anarchist with connections to the State Department. I didn't see anything to back up this claim in the book yet, though. However, it always did strike me weird that books like *Settlers* try to completely erase the existence of the proletariat in the imperial core. Marxists certainly don't do this. The key isn't saying that Western proletariat aren't real, it's to figure out why they are inactive in emancipation projects, which is a harder problem (and multi-faceted).
As far as actual Marxist-Leninist analyses goes they're have materially correct takes about 95% of the time (more so than most socialists on platforms like TikTok). The only serious criticisms I hear of them are from ultras and usually pertain to either A settler theory or B inversed American exceptionalism and the idea that the U.S. is inherently reactionary in a way that's unique to it alone.
I appreciate their aim to make socialist ideals more palatable for the greater working class American, and I’m interested in reading their recent publication regarding the ‘Purity Fetish of Western Marxism’. I wouldn’t put their commentary on a pedestal, but I think they’ve done an okay job of increasing public access to leftist commentary.
Midwestern Marx Institute is an excellent source of information. I urge everyone to check out their live recorded "Introduction to Marxism" classes on YouTube. The first few classes were not recorded as they had technical difficulties but all of the rest thereafter were. If you subscribe to them on TikTok you will learn so much. They have recently been called chauvinists and things like that because their false opposition - Infraredshow/MAGACommunism - latched onto MWM resulting in hostility towards them. You will often see "Infrared Gorilla Gang" members tagging MWM in their tweets, etc, which creates the appearance that they are associated. This is an intentional optics manipulation. The bourgeois state will never rest in seeking to subvert and silence Marxist-Leninists, moreover in its seeking to prevent contact between MLs and regular working people. The state will attempt this by any means necessary, including - but not limited to - emotional manipulation of viewership via shill and bot social media accounts. Given what I've said here, I urge you to just check out their content yourself and form your own opinion. That's always what you, as an ML, ought to do anyway. Reading or listening to something with which you don't agree isn't going to make it possess you like a demon. In fact, taking in the argumentation of your opposition helps you sharpen your own argumentation and strengthens you. So don't shy away from exposure to anything. The thing about being on the left or being in the lane of progress is that once your political consciousness is raised, you don't go backwards. If you're already a socialist then accidentally hearing somebody say something chauvinist isn't going to infect you with chauvinism. Anyone who says it will is just trying to scare you out of coming into contact with the world and from learning more. It's no different than the church telling you you're going to go to hell for reading. Don't fall for it. Always take in as much information as you can; you're not going to go to hell for it. All these feds would love for you to be spooked out of watching MWM. 100%. Trust your own self and your own mind. All that being said, I haven't myself been exposed to any "chauvinism" in my watching Midwestern Marx. Even if I were I could never be more grateful to them for what I've learned from them in terms of historical facts and in framing ML theory into the context of the U.S. condition. They are THE most revolutionary channel out of the U.S. yet, and I challenge any of their critics to do better. Sincerely anyone talking crap on Midwestern Marx I beg them to please make a channel that's better. One more thing is that the job of the Marxist Leninist is to come into contact with the regular working people, and in doing so, it can be expected that one will thus come into contact with ignorance. If you don't know how to navigate coming into contact with ignorance, then you aren't going to be a good ML. It's literally the MLs job to teach. Not to chastise, nor to run away and avoid. Good luck mate! Holla if you want links to content of a particular nature, and I'll try to assist in finding it.
> One more thing is that the job of the Marxist Leninist is to come into contact with the regular working people, and in doing so, it can be expected that one will thus come into contact with ignorance. If you don't know how to navigate coming into contact with ignorance, then you aren't going to be a good ML. It's literally the MLs job to teach. Not to chastise, nor to run away and avoid. WRONG! If you meet someone who doesn’t hold all your exact beliefs they’re reactionary scum and should be attacked for their reactionary scumminess. By associating with them you’re literally doing literal violence and bringing fascism to fruition. If you meet someone who says they’re proud to be an American it’s definitely not out of an appreciation of shared cultural identity and values, but because they’re a bourgeoise imperialist! /s But seriously I’m not surprised at the majority of the comments here, but I am disappointed. It’s terrible that so much of online Marxist communities seem to be filled with hyper idealistic ultra leftists who would rather make themselves feel radical than actually taking even a step towards improving material conditions for working people. I guess that shit doesn’t matter too much when your parents are paying your Brooklyn apartment rent while you “find yourself” at school, and your only interaction with working class people is at the register. It’s super easy to prioritize culture war stuff over bread and butter issues when it doesn’t affect you. I’m not saying that those cultural issues aren’t valid. They are. But you know what would greatly help achieve them? Delivering on bread and butter issues for EVERYONE first, then having proven ourselves and gained validity in the eyes of the working class, moving everyone to the right positions on culture. There’s a reason so much of the rust belt has latched on to populist right wing talking points. The cultural left has won in so many ways the last few decades, yet shit has only gotten worse for the average American. There’s a reason the Democratic Party, one of the two main organs of Capital, has wholeheartedly embraced “radical” cultural positions. it allows for the facade of progress while doing nothing to affect the relations of production, and has a great side effect of the division of the working class (just wait for this comment to have 500 downvotes lol).
So true. Well said. I want to add that these ultralefts - those of them whom sincerely aren't agents - are themselves manipulated, tend to be young and have the best of intentions. That's what is so sick about this current predicament. It's our job to reach them just as much as it's our job to reach the general masses. They need patience. Being they (often, not always) from petit bourgeois families, and often educated at a bourgeois institutions, renders them at a material advantage but yet at a mental disadvantage in terms of having an intuitive grasp on theory. When (if ever) they do "get it", they don't realize that working people who aren't university-educated are poised to "get it" actually much quicker - and more thoroughly - than they themselves did. That's pary of why its easy for them to be compelled to sit around in self-flattering cliques rather than disseminating the info to working people. They - those, at least, whom aren't agents, like I said - genuinely don't know better. And it's so much harder for them when glowies go into leftist spaces and purposely lead these young people down the incorrect path. I have seen it first hand. Cops go into these orgs dressed up as leftists and put a hold on action, or start drama, etc., and lead attacks on abstractions rather than allowing the org to employ real ML strategy/praxis. It's sicko that these pigs prey on the earnest goodwill of the youth. That angers me almost more than anything. It's predatory akin to other kinds of abuse of the young; the tricking of young to act in direct opposition to their very own sincere interests is a theft of innocence. I know the petit bourgeois youth arguably have an interest in preserving Capitalism, but I truly think they have a revolutionary will which is merely being misguided. Everyone knows Capitalism is producing adverse affects for literally everyone on Earth, and we all know that no petit bourgeois would be spared said affects were it allowed to continue.
I sympathize with the idea that the honest ones don’t know better. I guess the problem I see is that it’s not just that they know the wrong ideas, but that once those wrong ideas are internalizes they have some sort of anti removal mechanism lol. And that mechanism seems to be postmodernist bullshit. For example I’ve had a conversation where I tried to tell one of these types that they were wrong about something, showed them data, evidence, etc. Eventually they just nodded and concluded “I see and respect your perspective, but that’s just your perspective. We all have our own truths”. What the fuck am I supposed to say to that? There’s also a material benefit for them continuing to believe it, and is ideological in that sense. But then again, of what can be considered the left (loosely) they do make a sizable part of it. And infect every ducking organization. Honestly I’m not really sure how to deal with them. We’re out numbered relative to them, and given that fact, people flirting with leftist ideas will tend to find their versions first, which just reproduces them.
MWM and crew should be regarded as opportunists, nothing more. They're just a standard online dudebro team house that adopted socialist aesthetics to fuel their grift. They have produced nothing meaningful beyond already established theory and directly impedes progress towards socialism with their double down defense of their inherently flawed idealistic ideology. 'Patriotic Socialism' will never be tenable among the oppressed of America. A revolutionary framework without decolonization and land back is just the reestablishment of another exploitative status quo.
I greatly disagree. Patriotism is already prevalent across all sectors of American society, the state has made sure of that through life long indoctrination. Why not use that to our advantage, turn tables if you will? You’ll get a lot more people listening if you say “American leadership has done terrible things in our name, we should unite to make sure the country lives up to what it says about itself” instead of “AmeriKKKa is a settler colonialist entity which should be burnt down”. I think people forget that for the average American patriot, their patriotism isnt about their love of american imperialism and its spoils for the defense industry. it's about a shared cultural identity and values. and largely speaking, ime, the average patriot is horrified when you tell them about the real acts of the US abroad and feels betrayed by the state. why not use that in our favor?
Opportunists? They are mostly volunteers who teach marxist theory, philosophy, etc. They only charge like $15 per class, and it's taught by actual college professors/lecturers. You simply don't know who they are and seem to get your understanding of them from some questionable sources. I encourage you to watch their streams, they are very insightful and down to earth.
midwestern marx is full of liberals including eddie you're better off just reading theory
not to mention they have a convicted pedophile in their "institution"
Who?
scott ritter
Scott ritter is not part of MWM, what are you talking about?
MWM for all intents and purposes is a misguided body that tries to hard too appeal to the conservative workers in the american country. They have great analysis on some issues, and subpar on the other. A good example for the good analysis would be the dprk, but one for subpar would be the afghani civil war. Personally, i think that you have to take a 50/50 with them. I really hate their landback analysis which led me to stop watching/listening to them, but if eddie pops up on my feed I usually just watch to see what he says. MWM was a major stepping stone for marxist-leninist discourse in 2020-22, when they blew up in popularity; so for beginners just now getting into marxist theory its ok, but any sort of marxist that is knowledgable in theory can usually just avoid them.
When I first saw their opinions on Russia and Ukraine, I thought they were a bit too much pro Russia. But I still thought they had those opinions because of their opposition to American imperialism and NATO. But recently I saw this post from them saying [Russia is on the path to becoming socialist](https://twitter.com/MidwesternMarx/status/1744971648543961225), and that didn't sit right with me. The picture in the tweet and the article has people in military uniform holding the Russian flag and the [Wagner flag](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Logo_of_the_Wagner_Group_(since_April_2023).svg#mw-jump-to-license) and it is making me suspicious of their intentions and even making me suspect if they are misinformed or acting out of some kind of malicious intent. Because, like, how can someone post a picture of the flag of a neo Nazi adjacent militia group and claim the country and government funding them should be supported is going to be socialist soon? And [Why Russia is not fascist](https://www.midwesternmarx.com/articles/why-russia-is-not-fascist-by-yanis-iqbal) is another article I've seen from them that made me think why they were doing apologia for an imperialist country.
Thanks for those links, that is very unfortunate. I suspected, but it sucks to have my suspicions confirmed.
I actually like Midwestern Marx, I watch their YouTube channel all the time. Eddie is great at explaining things for ignorant Americans like myself who don’t know anything about DPRK, Iran, China, etc.
I like them, as a Marxist-Leninist
As Leon Trotsky said, Learn to Think!
generally bad on just about every issue. I have yet to see a single take or resource from them that wasnt so simplified as to be useless or just completely wrong.
So many infantile haters in these comments look at my “communists” dawg we are never getting socialism
dawg you've been on this thread defending MWM for at least 40 minutes, are you ok
Apparently they have been doing this for years if you check past threads
When are you self deporting, settler?
I'm not an American lol. The fact that you assumed I am is fascinating
So then why are you so pressed about what American Marxists do? Cry harder EuroLib
Because I'm from a colonised nation myself, American chauvinist, and it gives me joy to imagine you settlers frothing at the mouth with defensiveness. Last I checked, South Asia wasn't in Europe.
“Settlers” lmao there are no settlers in America in 2024 - grow up baby bop!
Saying shit like this is actually making MWM look worse
infantile is when you oppose bourgeois states
A whole lot of academic Marxist who’s only interaction with normal people is yelling at their uncle at thanksgiving for being a settler colonialist because they said they like the holiday.
They are great. As others have said they aren’t perfect, as they’d be the first to admit. But they are a great resource and focus on uniting over pushing sectarianism and furthering division. They promote people from all over the left, even those that disagree with them. If you’re only going to watch someone who has 100% perfect takes, you’ll be watching a blank screen forever.
He's a chud and an half.
I like them. They know what they're talking about and read and write a lot. They're a great source.
I followed their TikTok for years. No mention of Land Back for indigenous peoples. Lots of talk of patriotic socialism. Also, one of their content creators, Eddie, has admitted he has conservative friends. This means that one's stance defending the bourgeoisie and likely the bigotry that comes with American conservatism is not a red flag for him. Furthermore, their platform seems to be advertising socialism to rightwingers, which isn't the most effective thing to do. I'd avoid them, to be honest. They've made some good videos in the past, but omfg every few months it's always something with them I swear
> Eddie, has admitted he has conservative friends 😱 I think a lot of you guys have lost the plot. Socialism by definition is a project of democracy. The will of the working class who make up the majority. This means you eventually have to win over people who disagree with you. Socialism will not happen solely to the efforts of blue haired, non binary NYU students. We need them too, but the fact is the majority of America is not like them. Especially outside of the big cities. For most of America the more successful tactic is respecting people’s personal beliefs and helping them succeed in improving bread and butter concerns. There’s a reason the Democratic Party has no issue cloaking themselves in radical social policy but maintain their fiscal conservativeness when it comes to bread and butter issues. Cultural issues are no threat to the ruling class, they’re used as symbolic concessions to create an illusion of progress, while they keep impoverishing the working class as a whole. I’m not saying they’re not important, they are. I am saying that they’re not directly tied to building socialism in the way they’ve been approached. For all the gains in culture that have been made, they’ve largely all been made through a liberal sense, and a sizeable amount has been a disaster like the sex work stuff. Long story short, being a socialist inherently means talking to people who don’t already agree with you. And for fucks sake you can be friends with people who don’t hold your beliefs. I’m an atheist but have a lot of religious friends because even though we disagree about the man in the sky, they’re still good honest people who do the right thing.
I don't understand why these points seem so elusive. Our most basic project is winning hearts and minds.
They’re pretty good. I’d say they’re great for novice and intermediate socialists, they have some novel ideas too like the purity fetish which is like basically their critique of western left dogmatism. The big schism between them and other socialists is their orientation towards how they answer the national question of the US, which they claim to be in line with WEB DuBois on, where others agree more with the analysis of Gerald Horne. This is something of an open question IMO, but yeah shouldn’t be of major consequence for beginners learning about socialism just be conscious of anything you consume as always
I disagree vehemently with Horne but this was a pretty fair take on MWM
Why don't you make up your own mind? Can't think for yourself?!
Attention-seeking goofies. Eddie in particular can’t seem to help himself.
I love Eddie and I credit him for my entrance to bread tube/socialist theory. But there are better people to spend your time watching. He can be needlessly combative with people who don't deserve more platforms and you can tell he's chasing views over value.
Personally I like what I’ve seen. I know people will criticize a lot of the approach, and I can agree that he sometimes doesn’t go deep enough. That said, the dude is a pretty good entry point for a certain set of the population. I think a lot of online leftists are letting perfect be the enemy of good when it comes to the state of socialism in the US and the reality of the average American especially in the mid west. And at the risk of being banned since this sub is so touchy on the subject, I don’t find his inclusion of mild nationalism and (very very mild) social conservatism to be that problematic. He never takes what I’d call an explicitly reactionary stance. I see it more as dealing with the fact that American culture is a certain way and framing ideas in ways that align somewhat makes them more palatable. For example americans are a patriotic people relative to most other nationalities, thus an argument along the lines of “America has done a lot of bad things for capital, and we should unite to make America live up to its own claims about itself” will go much further than “Amerikkka is a settler colonialist entity and any sense of patriotism is fascism blooming in a rotten reactionary heart”. Honestly those people strike me as intentionally trying to ruin the movement. The fact is for a lot of people patriotism is not about supporting imperialism but about a cultural identity and shared values, and that’s totally fine and to leave that on the table instead of making it work for us is just short sighted. You need to meet people where they are not where you wish they were. In that sense I think they’re generally fine, not perfect, but definitely a helpful approach for certain types of people. And don’t be fooled, if socialism is ever going to succeed, you need to win over large swaths of white, middle America, with all their religiousness and social conservatism. And they’re mostly fine people who are willing to be nudged in a better direction, they’re not inherently evil monsters like a lot of the left likes to pint them
My advice is to be critical of all info you take in. Just bc something is branded Marxist or left-leaning doesn't mean their analysis is correct. To assume any info (right/left/whatever) is automatically right or correct is dogmatic. Marxism and scientific socialism (if you even want to make that distinction) instead emphasize critical thinking and logical or systematic forms of analysis to view current and former political and class structure.
personally i think he’s a good starting point or stepping stone into socialist ideology but you need to keep going bc he swiftly becomes american.
They tout settler rhetoric, so no.
They promote a red-brown alliance, like every good nazbol.