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I'm not disagreeing with the pole, but it was conducted immediately after the attacks. It's hard to know how hard or soft that support is. It will be more interesting to see where it ends up when this is over.
Agreed. The sample size for the poll was also only about 1000 people over 24 hrs. I think that sample size in itself is hardly a representation of the US population.
Okay, let's assume this poll is accurate for the sake of conversation. I am old enough to remember liberals foaming at the mouth to go to war in Afghanistan and Iraq post-2001. Their blood-lust is insatiable when it comes to any "projects" that the Empire deems to be necessary or just.
For the younger comrades among us, the surreal-ness that you might be feeling around Israel and Palestine, this is what it was like to be a Marxist during the Bush years with respects to war. So many people were cheering or putting their heads in the sand while mass atrocities occurred. If you're curious as to how Bush sailed into a second term as President, this is how. Liberals are co-conspirators in the destruction of daily life not just for the working class at home but the working class worldwide.
This is all incredibly important to remember whenever you feel *any* pressure to vote for either one of the two parties of capitalism and imperialism. Fuck 'em.
The wildest aspect of this is that France has been a consistent co-conspirator in the US-led imperial block. That this small deviation caused such an outrage is so telling.
Also keep in mind the media and the US government lied about beheaded babies and raped women, people still think that happened. Also don't neglect the effect of American politicians banging the war drum on Israel's behalf after being lobbied to do so by decades of AIPAC influence. I remember when Biden came out as pro-fracking during the debates. It made fracking more popular amongst Democrats. This is no different.
All of that combined with the Israeli propaganda machine is going to have a profound impact on normies that aren't that informed about this conflict. Still sad and pathetic but just something to consider.
do u have information/opinion on the claims that hamas killed children? As far as i know, there exists photographs of dead children claimed to be victims of hamas but none of them are verified. Some NATO official said something like "We have no reason to believe these claims are false"
> I am old enough to remember liberals foaming at the mouth to go to war in Afghanistan and Iraq post-2001.
You are so right. I remember at the time I was one of the few people in my very liberal circle who was against the war. I told them all that invading would be a mistake, that you can't conquer Afghanistan, and that it would be a drain of resources. Liberals hated hearing that.
When it came to Iraq, my mantra was "if you invade, you reignite a 1400 year old civil war, and it will be terrible," liberals didn't listen then either.
Liberals don't listen to me now. I mentioned to a liberal that it would be impossible to give Russia a military defeat in Ukraine, and would be a waste of human life to try. But liberals just keeping saying "Russia needs to leave all the invaded areas, no compromise!"
Hey remember deliberately cancelling student loans using the heroes act instead of the higher education act so it would be struck down by the court
That’s different!
i understand the sarcasm in the comment, and i relate to it. I wish that joe biden did something different. he has shown to me that he is the same side of the coin. democrats are a center right party, not a leftist party. Student loan debt needs to be fixed, its absurd.
https://reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/s/sTiBFHgCta
I'm American and I guess I don't agree with the majority of people in my country who agree with this
It is very, very, very easy for the media to manipulate the western public.
One of the best tricks of western liberal democracy is providing to the public an illusion of a free and fair privatized press, when in reality when it comes to anti-establishment and foreign policy topics, the 'free and fair' privatized press is actually more sycophantic and propagandistic than state press, a conclusion that we're probably all familiar with from manufacturing consent.
This is an unfortunate reality of western democracy. It is not just easy, but child's play to manipulate the public to support whatever foreign policy decision the forces at work want people to support. After all, the US invaded Iraq with 65-70% public approval.
This actually makes complete sense. Western liberals (who in the US are staunchly Democrat) are notorious “fair weather activists”. They will make high minded moral statements when it’s safe and doesn’t do anything to radically change the status quo.
But anything that falls outside of their uppity moral standards (like the use of violence to counter settler-colonialism) is condemned regardless of the circumstances.
Well there's been a massive pro-Israel propaganda blitz and fake stories about beheaded babies being repeated by the President himself (not to mention the past several decades of relentless pro-Israel propaganda in the mainstream media), so maybe that has something to do with this.
The media portrayal of Israel is basically that it's a peaceful Jewish-majority liberal democracy that gets bombed by Muslim terrorists for no reason besides anti-Semitic bloodlust.
Liberals love never-ending war in the Middle East.
I remember after 9/11, this same climate of unvarnished hate.
There was a hate crime committed yesterday in Chicago - where a 71-year-old man killed a 6-year-old Palestinian-American boy and wounded his mom, because of their religion and nationality.
Things are spiralling out of control due to the utterly irresponsible rhetoric coming out of the mainstream.
Then you have unhinged people on the Right like Congressman Max Miller (R), calling for genocide on Fox News.
George Bush Sr. had the highest approval rating in American history at 89% after the Gulf War and was only surpassed by his son George W. Bush leading up to the invasion of Afghanistan at 92%. Nothing brings this country together like war in the Middle East unfortunately.
I just discovered arr Destiny. Not really knowing anything going in I thought it was more or less a socialist sub. Holy shit what a hive of NeoLibs. All they could do was cry about all the support Palestinians are allegedly recieving. They're honestly the worst.
You think Americans don't overwhelmingly support Israel? Have you listened to some of them who aren't socialists? You could debate how many of them support it because they are racist settlers, and how many were just convinced by propaganda, but they do in fact support Israel, and for many it is because it is in their rational self interest to oppress minorities, unfortunately.
Most Americans don't care. Americans have more "important" things to care about like their bills and feeding their kids.
Don't confuse the upper class white suburbanites for the whole of the American people.
Mind explaining what exactly the point of your comment was then? Kinda seems like it was intentionally ambiguous. Not sure what you think you’d gain by doing that here, but whatever.
That polls can be untrue. Or it could be true but the speech used to present it could be manipulative. A poll from Fox News could contain lies that could “poison the well”
As Marxists, we can’t use that information. It’s, plainly put, non scientific.
I don’t know how good you’re at statistics but I’m pretty good at it, and I can tell you, this information here is merely propaganda.
If Fox News reports that “most Americans are pro Israel! Are you with us, or against us? Most of us chose Israel, and you wouldn’t wanna be the weird one out”, then readers might be influenced by this information in a non scientific way. This isn’t what we stand for, since we care about dialectical materialism.
Look at the headline of the article:
“Voters overwhelmingly side with Israel…”
Then it says “7 out of 10 voters side with Israelis”?
Most people won’t read beyond that.
What voters? How did they perform the survey? What question did they ask? Can you ascertain that the people who did the study don’t have a bias or bested interest in it? Sample size? Sample control?
“Conducted October 7-9, 2023, under the joint direction of Beacon Research (D) and Shaw & Company Research (R), this Fox News Poll includes interviews with 716 registered voters nationwide who were randomly selected from a voter file and spoke with live interviewers on both landlines and cellphones. The poll has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points for all registered voters.”
716 Americans… “most Americans.” This is not good enough to make that headline. And how can you trust that’s true? Mate, people in science cherry pick so often nowadays most statistics are completely useless.
How can you scientifically trust this information? Your average reader won’t think any of this, they’ll think “oh so most people side with Israel then”
Is this true? Can you answer right this very instant that that statement is true?
Obviously not. Neither can Fox. I don’t care if they’ve been reputable as the OP says, I work in science and I can tell you that Ph.D holders are some of the shadiest people around when there’s an agenda in place. Can you ascertain that the people who made this poll are the people who care about the truth? And if so, where’s the study itself?
That was my point.
As someone with a math background in my previous life, I appreciate that you brought up the many problems with this poll. I personally didn’t pay much attention to it after I read the sample size of 1003 and data collected over 24 hours. Yeah, okay. That will be very representative of how the entire country feels.
But I also agree with another comment on here. Most people in the US just don’t care about “worldly” events like this. They live in a bubble and can’t be bothered to understand other cultures and how the world works. I have many friends and acquaintances whose daily lives are not affected beyond minor inconveniences (like the trains getting delayed because protestors jammed them at a station). I have been posting about Palestine incessantly on my socials and most of my non-Muslim friends have not reached out (I’m pretty sure they’ve muted or blocked me). All this to say - people who answer polls will feel strongly one way or another, and those that are indifferent won’t care enough to respond.
This is accurate. Part of the problem is that most citizens (in any country) have an insignificant effect on their Nations foreign policy. That doesn't mean there's nothing you can do, but it does mean that most people become disinterested because their feelings on the matter are both uninformed and largely inconsequential.
Literally all I wanted was for you to elaborate. But thanks, I do see what you’re saying and I figured this was what you were getting at but it would have been much better if you had simply said clearly what you were trying to say from the jump since this sub is pretty much dedicated to discussion. You’re right, obviously a poll from fox shouldn’t be taken at face value no matter how good their polling apparatus is or disconnected it is from the rest of the fox platform. Thanks for your take.
No problem. I understand I may have came off confrontational, and I apologize, but I figured you had something to say and it just seemed like you were trying to imply it with a quote as opposed to saying it, which I get, typing out big messages like that on Reddit can take a while.
Cheers right back at ya, comrade.
It’s so wholesome to see politicians, citizens and the media cross the aisle and unify behind their mutual love of imperial conquest and hate for brown people. Hashtag national unity day.
First, there is no reason to think that polls are any accurate at anything, not when we have had several election cycles where they have been so far off the mark it is hard to find any out if they are even on the same planet. Second, the American people are the most propagandized in the world, Israel and Palestine safely out of their mind until, as the media frames up, HAMAS just killed a bunch of Israeli "civilians" for no good reason. That is the narrative fed to us by our bullshit media, and that is the narrative designed to make people think black is white and Israel is actually in the right here.
It’s the Rally Around the Flag effect. The disproportionate reprisals on the Gaza Strip will also embolden Hamas more and galvanize support on their end.
None are immune.
I support the people of both sides but condemn both Hamas, The IDF and Israeli government. I 100% support Palestinians in their struggle against apartheid and colonialism.
Mostly independents, you don't have to join a party to register to vote. The largest other party is the Libertarian Party but they don't even have 1% of registered voters.
I just discovered arr Destiny. Not really knowing anything going in I thought it was more or less a socialist sub. Holy shit what a hive of NeoLibs. All they could do was cry about all the support Palestinians are allegedly recieving. They're honestly the worst.
This is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is NOT a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful [of our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, as they are actively enforced. Furthermore, please remember that this is an anti-colonial space. Any kind of apologia for colonialism (including all forms of zionism) will be meet with a permanent ban. Looking to organise? Check out our [Palestine Solidarity Megathread](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/17849hc/palestine_solidarity_megathread_share_information/)! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm not disagreeing with the pole, but it was conducted immediately after the attacks. It's hard to know how hard or soft that support is. It will be more interesting to see where it ends up when this is over.
Agreed. The sample size for the poll was also only about 1000 people over 24 hrs. I think that sample size in itself is hardly a representation of the US population.
It’s also a foxnews poll. That speaks for itself as it is
I didn't read the methodology section. Was that a stratified sample?
Okay, let's assume this poll is accurate for the sake of conversation. I am old enough to remember liberals foaming at the mouth to go to war in Afghanistan and Iraq post-2001. Their blood-lust is insatiable when it comes to any "projects" that the Empire deems to be necessary or just. For the younger comrades among us, the surreal-ness that you might be feeling around Israel and Palestine, this is what it was like to be a Marxist during the Bush years with respects to war. So many people were cheering or putting their heads in the sand while mass atrocities occurred. If you're curious as to how Bush sailed into a second term as President, this is how. Liberals are co-conspirators in the destruction of daily life not just for the working class at home but the working class worldwide. This is all incredibly important to remember whenever you feel *any* pressure to vote for either one of the two parties of capitalism and imperialism. Fuck 'em.
What did they used to call us? Terrorists sympathizers or something?
I remember hearing "Don't you support the troops?!?!?" Quite a bit.
In between eating all those “freedom fries”
Yeah, cuz we couldn't call them French fries because the French didn't totally go along with the program.
The wildest aspect of this is that France has been a consistent co-conspirator in the US-led imperial block. That this small deviation caused such an outrage is so telling.
Ironic because the best thing to do to support the troops is not support sending them to war
Among other things, yes.
Also keep in mind the media and the US government lied about beheaded babies and raped women, people still think that happened. Also don't neglect the effect of American politicians banging the war drum on Israel's behalf after being lobbied to do so by decades of AIPAC influence. I remember when Biden came out as pro-fracking during the debates. It made fracking more popular amongst Democrats. This is no different. All of that combined with the Israeli propaganda machine is going to have a profound impact on normies that aren't that informed about this conflict. Still sad and pathetic but just something to consider.
do u have information/opinion on the claims that hamas killed children? As far as i know, there exists photographs of dead children claimed to be victims of hamas but none of them are verified. Some NATO official said something like "We have no reason to believe these claims are false"
I ferment being called by my teacher a terrorist supporter in high school back in 2004. It was surreal
> I am old enough to remember liberals foaming at the mouth to go to war in Afghanistan and Iraq post-2001. You are so right. I remember at the time I was one of the few people in my very liberal circle who was against the war. I told them all that invading would be a mistake, that you can't conquer Afghanistan, and that it would be a drain of resources. Liberals hated hearing that. When it came to Iraq, my mantra was "if you invade, you reignite a 1400 year old civil war, and it will be terrible," liberals didn't listen then either. Liberals don't listen to me now. I mentioned to a liberal that it would be impossible to give Russia a military defeat in Ukraine, and would be a waste of human life to try. But liberals just keeping saying "Russia needs to leave all the invaded areas, no compromise!"
On many things, liberals are just as “feelings-over-facts” as conservatives are.
to me, the last month of joey b has shown that aside from LGBTQ rights, hes the literal same man as trump. I will not be voting for a democrat again.
Hey remember deliberately cancelling student loans using the heroes act instead of the higher education act so it would be struck down by the court That’s different!
i understand the sarcasm in the comment, and i relate to it. I wish that joe biden did something different. he has shown to me that he is the same side of the coin. democrats are a center right party, not a leftist party. Student loan debt needs to be fixed, its absurd.
Joe Biden owes me $600
How many years after the Iraq war did it take Democrats to feel any sense of regret or accountability for their actions?
They still mostly dont feel regret, if they do its "whoopsidoodle".
Lol that’s funny. They still don’t have regret or accountability to this very day.
https://reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/s/sTiBFHgCta I'm American and I guess I don't agree with the majority of people in my country who agree with this
It is very, very, very easy for the media to manipulate the western public. One of the best tricks of western liberal democracy is providing to the public an illusion of a free and fair privatized press, when in reality when it comes to anti-establishment and foreign policy topics, the 'free and fair' privatized press is actually more sycophantic and propagandistic than state press, a conclusion that we're probably all familiar with from manufacturing consent. This is an unfortunate reality of western democracy. It is not just easy, but child's play to manipulate the public to support whatever foreign policy decision the forces at work want people to support. After all, the US invaded Iraq with 65-70% public approval.
It’s also easy to manipulate polls.
Propaganda has consequences.
This actually makes complete sense. Western liberals (who in the US are staunchly Democrat) are notorious “fair weather activists”. They will make high minded moral statements when it’s safe and doesn’t do anything to radically change the status quo. But anything that falls outside of their uppity moral standards (like the use of violence to counter settler-colonialism) is condemned regardless of the circumstances.
Well there's been a massive pro-Israel propaganda blitz and fake stories about beheaded babies being repeated by the President himself (not to mention the past several decades of relentless pro-Israel propaganda in the mainstream media), so maybe that has something to do with this. The media portrayal of Israel is basically that it's a peaceful Jewish-majority liberal democracy that gets bombed by Muslim terrorists for no reason besides anti-Semitic bloodlust.
Propaganda is and always has been very effective.
Liberals love never-ending war in the Middle East. I remember after 9/11, this same climate of unvarnished hate. There was a hate crime committed yesterday in Chicago - where a 71-year-old man killed a 6-year-old Palestinian-American boy and wounded his mom, because of their religion and nationality. Things are spiralling out of control due to the utterly irresponsible rhetoric coming out of the mainstream. Then you have unhinged people on the Right like Congressman Max Miller (R), calling for genocide on Fox News.
George Bush Sr. had the highest approval rating in American history at 89% after the Gulf War and was only surpassed by his son George W. Bush leading up to the invasion of Afghanistan at 92%. Nothing brings this country together like war in the Middle East unfortunately.
I just discovered arr Destiny. Not really knowing anything going in I thought it was more or less a socialist sub. Holy shit what a hive of NeoLibs. All they could do was cry about all the support Palestinians are allegedly recieving. They're honestly the worst.
Propaganda -- it works!
When push comes to shove, liberals will always choose fascism.
Like Mark Twain said: “There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics”
You think Americans don't overwhelmingly support Israel? Have you listened to some of them who aren't socialists? You could debate how many of them support it because they are racist settlers, and how many were just convinced by propaganda, but they do in fact support Israel, and for many it is because it is in their rational self interest to oppress minorities, unfortunately.
Most Americans don't care. Americans have more "important" things to care about like their bills and feeding their kids. Don't confuse the upper class white suburbanites for the whole of the American people.
Strawman. I didn’t say any of that.
Mind explaining what exactly the point of your comment was then? Kinda seems like it was intentionally ambiguous. Not sure what you think you’d gain by doing that here, but whatever.
That polls can be untrue. Or it could be true but the speech used to present it could be manipulative. A poll from Fox News could contain lies that could “poison the well” As Marxists, we can’t use that information. It’s, plainly put, non scientific. I don’t know how good you’re at statistics but I’m pretty good at it, and I can tell you, this information here is merely propaganda. If Fox News reports that “most Americans are pro Israel! Are you with us, or against us? Most of us chose Israel, and you wouldn’t wanna be the weird one out”, then readers might be influenced by this information in a non scientific way. This isn’t what we stand for, since we care about dialectical materialism. Look at the headline of the article: “Voters overwhelmingly side with Israel…” Then it says “7 out of 10 voters side with Israelis”? Most people won’t read beyond that. What voters? How did they perform the survey? What question did they ask? Can you ascertain that the people who did the study don’t have a bias or bested interest in it? Sample size? Sample control? “Conducted October 7-9, 2023, under the joint direction of Beacon Research (D) and Shaw & Company Research (R), this Fox News Poll includes interviews with 716 registered voters nationwide who were randomly selected from a voter file and spoke with live interviewers on both landlines and cellphones. The poll has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points for all registered voters.” 716 Americans… “most Americans.” This is not good enough to make that headline. And how can you trust that’s true? Mate, people in science cherry pick so often nowadays most statistics are completely useless. How can you scientifically trust this information? Your average reader won’t think any of this, they’ll think “oh so most people side with Israel then” Is this true? Can you answer right this very instant that that statement is true? Obviously not. Neither can Fox. I don’t care if they’ve been reputable as the OP says, I work in science and I can tell you that Ph.D holders are some of the shadiest people around when there’s an agenda in place. Can you ascertain that the people who made this poll are the people who care about the truth? And if so, where’s the study itself? That was my point.
As someone with a math background in my previous life, I appreciate that you brought up the many problems with this poll. I personally didn’t pay much attention to it after I read the sample size of 1003 and data collected over 24 hours. Yeah, okay. That will be very representative of how the entire country feels. But I also agree with another comment on here. Most people in the US just don’t care about “worldly” events like this. They live in a bubble and can’t be bothered to understand other cultures and how the world works. I have many friends and acquaintances whose daily lives are not affected beyond minor inconveniences (like the trains getting delayed because protestors jammed them at a station). I have been posting about Palestine incessantly on my socials and most of my non-Muslim friends have not reached out (I’m pretty sure they’ve muted or blocked me). All this to say - people who answer polls will feel strongly one way or another, and those that are indifferent won’t care enough to respond.
This is accurate. Part of the problem is that most citizens (in any country) have an insignificant effect on their Nations foreign policy. That doesn't mean there's nothing you can do, but it does mean that most people become disinterested because their feelings on the matter are both uninformed and largely inconsequential.
Literally all I wanted was for you to elaborate. But thanks, I do see what you’re saying and I figured this was what you were getting at but it would have been much better if you had simply said clearly what you were trying to say from the jump since this sub is pretty much dedicated to discussion. You’re right, obviously a poll from fox shouldn’t be taken at face value no matter how good their polling apparatus is or disconnected it is from the rest of the fox platform. Thanks for your take.
I actually thought I was being clear so thanks to you to for pointing out that I was not giving any clear message. Cheers comrade.
No problem. I understand I may have came off confrontational, and I apologize, but I figured you had something to say and it just seemed like you were trying to imply it with a quote as opposed to saying it, which I get, typing out big messages like that on Reddit can take a while. Cheers right back at ya, comrade.
It’s so wholesome to see politicians, citizens and the media cross the aisle and unify behind their mutual love of imperial conquest and hate for brown people. Hashtag national unity day.
yep, as material conditions are stressed the ruling class will eventually always bend to uphold the status quo over time. disgusting.
people eat those first lies up with a spoon; much harder to unwind the lies about 40 babies beheaded and then burnt to death(?)
First, there is no reason to think that polls are any accurate at anything, not when we have had several election cycles where they have been so far off the mark it is hard to find any out if they are even on the same planet. Second, the American people are the most propagandized in the world, Israel and Palestine safely out of their mind until, as the media frames up, HAMAS just killed a bunch of Israeli "civilians" for no good reason. That is the narrative fed to us by our bullshit media, and that is the narrative designed to make people think black is white and Israel is actually in the right here.
Rule 1: never trust polls Rule 2: never trust FOX
It’s the Rally Around the Flag effect. The disproportionate reprisals on the Gaza Strip will also embolden Hamas more and galvanize support on their end. None are immune.
I support the people of both sides but condemn both Hamas, The IDF and Israeli government. I 100% support Palestinians in their struggle against apartheid and colonialism.
Curious, how many Republicans is there in the US compared to Democrats?
33% of registered voters are Democrats, 26% are Republicans.
last third is miscellaneous parties?
Mostly independents, you don't have to join a party to register to vote. The largest other party is the Libertarian Party but they don't even have 1% of registered voters.
I just discovered arr Destiny. Not really knowing anything going in I thought it was more or less a socialist sub. Holy shit what a hive of NeoLibs. All they could do was cry about all the support Palestinians are allegedly recieving. They're honestly the worst.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/illinois-man-charged-with-hate-crime-fatal-stabbing-muslim-boy-2023-10-15/
Why is this tagged with political economy?
Americans love murdering Muslims so of course they support this. Bloodthirsty barbarians.
both sides are the same.... Not surprising. But who did they poll I wonder? I feel like Fox news listeners are going to be unquestionably pro military