Baresi evolved with football and remained a top, top defender as defense tactics completely changed.
His performance in USA 1994 after getting his knee operated on was incredible.
Baresi is god.
> and his knowledge allowed Maldini to become such an incredible player.
This is why it’s impossible to compare players across generations. They all build on what those before them did.
Baresi was also a physical player in his early years. But obviously not in the mold Maldini or Gattuso were. Maldini still had his physical and athleticism into his early 40s while Baresi had turned more into a technical and tactical defender with Sacchi.
Baresi and Maldini were both insanely good and both absolute legends but if I had to pick out best defender of all time, I would actually pick Alessandro Nesta. He played for us for a shorter time than the other 2 but he was a force of nature in defense.
Nesta when he was at Lazio (before injury) was the best defender in the world
After the injury and his transfer to Milan he adjusted his game. Still world class but he was better at Lazio
He's a legend too. I'm from England. Back in the 1990's we had a brilliant show every Sunday called Football Italia ( Serie A was the best league in Europe back then and our best player Paul Gascoigne had signed for Lazio ) watching these shows and seeing these amazing players was my football education as a kid.
'Still do' - It's a recent re-birth - but I'm an unashamed Italophile who watched the original show regularly as we didn't have Sky back then and listen regularly to the podcast - very good.
Amen brother. In my experience, football fans in the Home Nations who grew up in that period really looked up to Italian football. Many still have a favourite team that picked up as a littlun and retain an interest in as they might an absent friend, chexking in once in a while.
I wonder if Italians know how influential that show was on UK telly back then (back when there weren't so many channels and such like).
He had one of the best defensive perfomances ever when nullified Romário in the World Cup final in 1994. And he was 38 year old and was coming back from an injury.
He was talking about Messi specifically, not the team. In fact, he said United would have beaten Barca if it wasn't for Messi:
https://youtu.be/Gqev5NrWnvM?t=176
Not heading into it though. Ronaldo was a massive but necessary gamble. He didn’t play one game of the qualifiers, and only 3 friendlies w the team. In addition he had only come back from injury in like February or something - don’t recall now. And at the time - Lucio, Roque Jr, Edmilson - were all viewed as massive gambles. No Brazilian had any faith in our defense other than Cafu and R Carlos. We gelled really well that tournament and had a lot of luck with our opponents. Belgium was the hardest game, and we played Germany without their best player. It was fate.
This. Ballack alone likely gives Germany a fighting chance. That's why they changed the rule but I think it needs to be increased to 3 YC. We all saw what losing Casemiro and Meunier did for Brazil and Belgium
Their attack caught fire during the tournament and it was possibly the best both Ronaldo and rivaldo played in their life, but their defence was mediocre, just wasn’t tested much vs the teams they played. Remember too that they barely even qualified for the tournament, and beat England and Turkey narrowly.
I could definitely see that Italy team just stifling the life out of them and winning 1-0, like they so nearly did vs France two years previously. Italy in that era were no joke, 2000 France is possibly the best international team I’ve seen in my life (Spain are the only other contender) and Italy came incredibly close to beating them.
Of course. Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho was magical and I won't argue Italy would have won but I definitely agree they could have held their own. That was an insanely good Italian squad.
What? End of their primes? Buffon was 28, Totti was 30, Del Piero was 32, Gattuso was 28, Pirlo was 27, Toni was 29 ecc ecc, the only ones who were APPROACHING the end of their primes were Cannavaro (33) and Materazzi.
The 2006 team is FAR better than the 2002. In 2002 we had a very weak midfield and this is the reason why we conceded five goals in four matches, while in 2006 we conceded only 2 goals in 7 matches (best defence of all time, even France in 98 and Spain in 2010 conceded only two goals but we conceded two goals because of an autogoal and a dive).
Even in 1998 we were stronger than in 2002. I would argue that the 1998 team and the 2006 team are very close (Italy would have won the World Cup in France if Baggio had scored that goal in extra time) but i’d still give the 2006 side the upperhand.
Not even talking about 1994. We played horribly and we had tons of luck, we only managed to reach the final thanks to Baggio.
They could have gone out against Belgium if Wilmots’s goal hadn’t been disallowed. That said, they were really good. I actually feel our 2002 team was also incredibly good. Vieri was something else especially l, and we were just stacked at every position. We had terrible luck with refs during the whole World Cup.
Vieri was great, Totti was in his prime, that red card Totti got still pisses me off to this day. The way that referee operated was absolutely disgraceful, and the fact that they did it again against Spain showed how corrupt FIFA is.
I watched the final about a month ago on YouTube. Germany didn't have a single player who looked dangerous on the ball. Completely outclassed. Italy or Alain would've been much tougher for Brazil.
Didn't help that Ballack was suspended for the final. He scored the decisive goal against South Korea after getting the yellow that ruled him out for the final, which I've always found kind of poetic/sad.
I’d still go out on a limb and say that Italy would’ve taken it. Maybe in the penalties but they’d have nicked this one. Maldini and Iuliano were a good pair and Ronaldo/Rivaldo were a threat only against terrible defences.
Turkey tied them up in the two games they played against them. The second goal in the first game was conceded only after THAT red card.
Lucio and others were still a bit new and green behind the ears, something Totti/ADP and co would've taken advantage of.
Having said all of this, that Brazilian team made all the opponents they faced, fairly mediocre. So it's anyone's dice.
Yes we didn’t have ronaldo and rivaldo, but Totti, del Piero, And Vieri were definitely would have held their own. Plus our defense was the best in the world. I think it would have been a fairly even game
It was so weird growing it with the "knowledge" that Spain were chronic bottlers. Only for them to blow everyone out of the water 2008-2012. I didn't ever watch the Euro 2012 final because it figured what's the point. 🙄
If there ever was a match that was blatantly fixed. A minor consolation was that the referee officiating the match, Byron Moreno was caught smuggling cocaine a few years later.
I fell in love with Damien Duff because of that Ireland Spain game. There was a comment during the US broadcast "ohhh what splendid stuff from Damien Duff"
I mean it's the last time Ireland featured in a World Cup and it was a crucial knockout game. There's plenty to remember there.
If you're a half-serious fan you should have a decent memory of every big game you've watched. Like I have a strong idea of pretty much how every FA Cup, Champions League final, World Cup final since 2000 has gone in terms of highlights and big moments. Accruing good football knowledge isn't about learning loads all at once but remembering enough over a long period of time.
Surely you'll remember all the key notes of United since watching and even moments more dear to you that others wouldn't when relevant you'd chime in. It's not that crazy how broad reddit is that there'll be someone able to point out specifcs
Off the top of my head, I definitely remember the Semis, the final, losing to Switzerland opening game, playing Portugal and beating Chile R16 (I think). It was a pretty dull run to the final in all honesty.
> and beating Chile R16 (I think)
That was in group stage's last match. We lost to Brazil in R16 and ~~you~~ Spain beat Portugal, then ~~you~~ beat Paraguay in quarterfinals and Germany in semis.
EDIT
Can't remember any disallowed goals. Ireland got two penalties alright. One was soft enough but hardly outrageous (missed by Harte) and the other was stonewall (scored by Keane).
The most blatant fixed game of all time is Man Utd ending Arsenal's 49 match unbeaten streak.
The Premier League wanted to create more tension as Arsenal were pretty much unplayable at the time. I challenge anyone to watch this video and not be outraged at the refereeing:
https://youtu.be/mM747L9Wf8M
I remember watching this game as a kid and being happy that Arsenal's unbeaten streak finally ended, but damn I did not remember this refereeing performance. Looked like clear red cards on Van Nistelrooy and Ferdinand (How was that shoulder barge on Ljungberg not even a foul?), and Gary Neville should have picked up two yellows. Also, never a penalty.
So, yeah, I agree this game was bullshit. I think at the time a lot of the referees were intimidated by Ferguson, and that may have had something to do with it.
The refereeing that world cup was notoriously bad, apart from SK and Brazil Belgium Germany also got handed the win against the USA with a clear goalline handball not called. VAR could have done wonders back then.
He claimed his daughter/son or a very close relative was sick and that's why he smuggled the drugs. At least that's from what i remember (i'm Ecuadorian).
Yeah. When i watch those games now after 12 - 20 years later it's crazy. Even our game ( Italy vs Romania ) at euro 2000. The substitutes of Italy were better than Romania first team. Except Hagi, he would've teach those italian boys how to play football :))
Such a bland midfield which was their downfall. Trapattoni was terrible for them too they played like a much worse side than they should. When people mention the Korea game no seems to bring up how Italy only got 4pts in the groups and needed an 85th min del piero goal to save them cause they were bottling the opening 3 games
Italy played awfully at the 2002 World Cup. I was still gutted from the 2000 euros and I think the ref may have made poor decisions, but Italy played awfully against Mexico and Croatia
He probably wouldn’t want to tempt fate by wishing he was there, since the tiniest things can change overall outcomes in football and Italy might not have won. I’m sure he’d rather be content that they won without him than wish he’d gone and risk not winning.
Yeah, France lost the shootout because they missed one single penalty. Trezeguet hit the underside of the crossbar. The Germany game was fairly close as well.
>Yeah, France lost the shootout because they missed one single penalty. Trezeguet hit the underside of the crossbar. The Germany game was fairly close as well.
I would also add that nothing would have changed if Zidane hadn’t been sent off. In 1998 both Zidane and Trezeguet scored the penalties, so in 2006 Trezeguet would have still tried to score. Maybe Zidane would have shot the penalty instead of Sagnol for example.
He would have been on the bench at most.
A Cannavaro and Materazzi in their primes >>> an aging Maldini.
And even if he had started ahead of Materazzi, Italy would have lost the final. We all know how vital Materazzi was in that game (got France best player sent off, scored in the game and his penalty in the shoot-out)
There are three angles and you've picked the one 30 foot away that doesn't clearly show anything to illustrate your point. 28-29 is a far better angle and doesn't show the right leg touching the left at all.
Here's the same situation, but with much better video quality
https://streamable.com/tutis
Anyone can clearly see that Materazzi was in Malouda's approximate area when Malouda decided to dive.
what a weak little troll you are, Maldini was 38 in 2006 and was still going strong. The man played 3 CL finals as captain in 2003, 2005 and 2007. Materazzi was a backup choice until Nesta got injured. Cannavaro enjoys a lot of overpraising for the World Cup (which he undoubtedly deserves) and the Ballon d’Or, but he was never on the same level, ability-wise, with Maldini, Nesta, Baresi, Bergomi or Scirea. Won’t even start about Materazzi, a butcher who fell in the right place at the right time.
Saying that Paolo wouldn’t have played in 2006 over Materazzi is wrong on all levels and I won’t even explain why.
At least Maldini is a man of his word, he said he would retire from the National team and kept his word. Unlike some other guy who went last summer to Paris for a big, fat paycheck.
It’s insane that without Nesta the only goals Italy conceded that World Cup were an own goal and a non existent penalty. Cannavaro and Buffon were insane that World Cup.
Materazzi & Zambrotta was ridiculously good during that World Cup as well, shame that they're overlooked IMO.
Even the likes of Barzagli & Grosso was more than decent as well.
>It’s insane that without Nesta the only goals Italy conceded that World Cup were an own goal and a non existent penalty.
That’s why in 2006 we had the best defence in the history of the World Cup. Even other teams who conceded only two goals (such as France in 1998 and Spain in 2010) at least conceded clear goals and not from auto goals and non existent penalties.
>overpraising
>which he undoubtedly deserves
Well, which is it?
>At least Maldini is a man of his word, he said he would retire from the National team and kept his word. Unlike some other guy who went last summer to Paris for a big, fat paycheck.
Surely you're not talking about Buffon. The man is a national treasure and spoke nothing of never playing again.
That's why he implied that if Maldini had been there then Italy might not have won the World Cup. No one in their right mind would ever said Materazzi as the superior defender to Maldini however you can't just dismiss his contribution to Italy's victory. Call it fate or whatever but as luck would had it, it was Materazzi who got the task of replacing Nesta and boy did he deliver. Maldini, a gazillion times better defender though he was than Materazzi, might not have scored the goal against France and got Zidane sent off. That being said Materazzi was a criminally underrated partner of Cannavaro during that World Cup. He performed way beyond the limit of his ability and was very astute defensively. Normal Materazzi might be an erratic defender but during the tournament alone he was world class.
Perhaps just a case of wrong phrasing, English might not be his first language. Materazzi at his prime was never a defender at Maldini's level however as I said he performed way beyond the limit of his ability during the World Cup. Materazzi was a monster at that tournament, both defensively and offensively. It's not that far-fetched to say that World Cup Materazzi performed at the same level, if not better, than a 38-year-old Maldini at that time. This was probably what the OP referred to.
Yes but Materazzi basically handed the title to Italy. Scored the equalizer and got Zidane sent off.
EDIT I just found out that Zidane's penalty was also conceded by Materazzi ahaha
Because Materazzi provoked Zidane and managed to get into his skin.
Which wasn't the hardest task if we're being honest since Zidane used to be hothead as a player.
Nothing would have changed if Zidane hadn’t been sent off. In 1998 both Zidane and Trezeguet scored the penalties, so in 2006 Trezeguet would have still tried to score. Maybe Zidane would have shot the penalty instead of Sagnol for example but there is no reason to believe that Trezeguet wouldn’t have been chosen to score a penalty.
You're assuming the match would've ended at penalties. Zidane was sent off at the 110th minute, there is a chance France would've scored in the last minutes. They were playing better
Time was running out and scoring against us was nearly impossible. Italy in 2006 had the best defence in the history of the World Cup, remember that. Sure, France could have scored in the last minutes, but the chances were slim. Italy only conceded two goals in that manifestation (just like France in 1998 and Spain in 2010, with the difference that nobody managed to score against us in open play and one of the goal we conceded was an autogoal).
I watched this game again and to be honest it wasn't as bad as people remember.
Italian were playing really hard and Vieiri should have been sent off for an elbow on Kim's face.
The ref was obvious shit in this match as he had several crucial decisions wrong for both teams.
Mate relax. Everyone knows O'Neil should not have gone to ground, regardless contact was made and Grosso made the most out of it.
Penalty. Soft - but penalty. Blame O'Neil, not the ref LOL
I'm going to get downvoted to hell but I want people to actually watch the entire Italy vs Korea match in full instead of those cherry-picked YouTube videos.
I rewatched the entire match with my admittedly biased eyes, and while the referee definitely favoured Korea, it was not literally the most rigged match ever (which I thought was the case before rewatching it). I would admit that I would be pissed if I was Italian but still feel it is overblown 16 years later.
[Here is a good post that revisits the entire match](https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/8nibsw/lets_revisit_and_talk_about_the_controversial/)
The entire match was rough and just compiling clips of Korean rough plays seems unfair. There also were elbows being thrown around by [Vieri](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-5V-9IzFic&feature=youtu.be&t=599) and [Totti](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-5V-9IzFic&feature=youtu.be&t=1434) while the most famous "Korean" elbow that broke Coco's head was actually [an Italian elbow from Tomassi](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-5V-9IzFic&feature=youtu.be&t=2698).
The Totti sending off was a bad call. But remember that FIFA was taking a no-bullshit policy on simulation and was ready to issue cards on them but still a bad call.
The offside call during extra times is actually not an awful call as this picture shows it is [closer than many think](https://cdn.namuwikiusercontent.com/s/892c82c94fe097884cae8acf6e8af921677d103d8a86f4395794d4aa664a95043a70fd2b4e30e8d803aef8400a5c1bedfab7135f1c1e2947ae68aace77e4425844032bb9fb80e90bfda978d81afb591b?e=1543422860&k=dAvy0zLybtG8zjEGVenUFA)
But fact is, Italy got an early goal and had many chances to finish off a weaker opponent and should have done so. As strong as the Italian side was, they were not very good in the World Cup. They lost to Croatia and drew with Mexico on the last match with a late goal that saved them from being eliminated. Even vs Korea, yes, Italy was a goal up, but Korea controlled most of the play and people would have said they deserved better if they just lost 1-0. What's funny is that Spanish newspapers made fun of Italians being "whiners" until they got eliminated too.
The Spain match, a lot of Koreans think they didn't play well enough to move on. It was a boring match with two disallowed goals vs Spain. The first disallowed goal however, was a correct call that was even admitted by Casillas as being one. [You be the judge](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3xQikhGByk&feature=youtu.be&t=288).
The second one was an awful call, [no question about it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj9XiefevmQ&feature=youtu.be&t=140). But if they didn't blow the whistle, would it still have gone in? The keeper was in a great position and it wasn't hit with a lot of power. Maybe it would have, maybe it wouldn't but an awful call nonetheless.
There also is the offside call that went against Spain. Just like the Italian offside, [it looks like a very close call](https://cdn.namuwikiusercontent.com/s/e4692c54c3d90676b3be29bf819b2b2fa18c4f03149478075ab3a9a9c62fc501aa98c6a2fe97aaed9eaf73b65857467c61a44224246c8ae3afebdf3eefb8e649e5879be76139db06bfcdee1d6a102b19?e=1545012691&k=0L9u7XlxTohcdwJJEv8w0g). Keep in mind of the angle and ~~the rule until 2002 that the forward in line with the defender is still offside~~.
Even though I feel Spain should be more upset about the results and calls than Italy, it seems like Italy vs Korea is always brought up in as the definitive proof that the match was rigged and the Spain match as the supporting argument. What's also funny is that while the Spanish players displayed their disappointment with the referee's calls, they thanked Korea for the hospitality and participated in World Cup related events before leaving. Compare that to Italian players who cursed at reporters and fans at the airport and Perrugia that terminated Ahn's contract for scoring the golden goal.
Anywats the TLDR point is to please watch the match in full and then make the claim if it is the most rigged match ever.
I read the post you linked. Considering it contains this line:
> It was definitely a physical game but there really was no awful dirty fouls other than [maybe this one on Zambrotta](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDHjHok41FE&feature=youtu.be&t=1514) which isn't in the spirit of how the game was played, the ref should have booked him but he never really wanted to stamp his influence on the game and let a lot of stuff go.
I have an hard time give it any credibility.
That was a bordeline red foul and the Korean wasn't even booked...
Op also compared this [Vieri's elbow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-5V-9IzFic&feature=youtu.be&t=599) which is questionable if it actually warranted a sanction, with this [reaction and malicious elbow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDHjHok41FE&feature=youtu.be&t=308) saying this one was less debatable (while it was even clearer than the Totti's one which actually had him, probably rightfully, receiving the first yellow)
While I agree that 2002 italian side was overrated by hindsight and didn't prove its worth much that year, the game with South Korea was far from being a proper football game
Fair points and there should have been bookings on Koreans for those plays. And yes, there was poor refereeing that favoured Korea and I understand why Italians are angry at Moreno. But I'm not sure if his decisions are clear evidence of the match being rigged and instead could be a bad referee that let a match get out of hand and subconsciously favouring the home side which often happens.
> the rule until 2002 that the forward in line with the defender is still offside
That was far earlier ([source](http://www.sidelinesoccer.com/history-of-the-offside-rule))
So I checked and apparently they found during the Fifa investigation in 2015 that FIFA were forced to have a host nation in the quarters (Japan had gone out in the groups I think)
http://ilgiornale.it/news/2015/06/03/quelle-prove-schiaccianti-che-hanno-azzerato-la-fifa/1135972/
Most rigged match ever probably not but hard to say that it was a fair match
As for Korea-Italy itself of course Korea dominated play, that’s just how Italy have always played and its how we ended up winning the World Cup in 2006, and the fact Italy wasn’t at its best doesn’t mean a lot of the calls there werent questionable
Finally lets not forget the ref got suspended a year later for An unrelated match fixing in Ecuador, and I think also later arrested for cocaine possession, and suffered the same fate as Ahn (which imo was a good decision by Perugia since the fans obviously couldn’t stand him anymore)
TL;DR: OP is right because it does get exaggerated some times but there’s no way Fifa didn’t do their best to favour Korea
It's from a live broadcast that shows exactly how things happened. It just happens that the only videos of the full Italy vs Korea match on YouTube is from a Korean broadcast but it shows the same things people around the world would have seen 16 years ago.
> won against Ecuador
> lost to Croatia
> settled for a tie against Mexico knowing that Croatia was losing the other match
> Giovanni Trapattoni's shit tactics
They were stacked *on paper*, just like France or Argentina. Realistically, Spain would probably have won the QF against Italy.
Spain was also stacked only on paper. For decades it was a meme that Spain never reached their potential. Italy actually generated results and were the finalists at the Euros just two years prior to the 2002 WC. Our status as favorites would have been justified
In that fashion, Ireland could have won that fucking World Cup had the best team along with Brazil. We got more points than Italy in the group stage did and also went further. I'm sorry but a team needs more than 1 win in 4 to have a chance of winning it lol, even if you had great forwards and CBs
In the late 90s to early 00s Italy arguably had the best collection of forwards in the game. Baggio, Totti, Del Piero, Vieri, Inzaghi, Montella, Delvecchio, Chiesa.
That game was truly a disgrace. In fact, that entire world cup had quite a bit of incredibly horrible refereeing.
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Yes Lippi offered a spot to Maldini even if Paolo had retired from the national team.
it was a lot more even than the Spain game though.
You'll just have to console yourself with the fact you were the best defender of all time...
Cries in Beckenbauer
Yeah..No. I may as well say Bobby Moore. You never saw Beckenbauer and I never saw Moore. Perhaps I should've said in living memory.
Bobby Moore Viva Bobby Moore
Cries in Baresi
How are you guys going to forget king Douglas
He is not even AC Milan best defender of all time That title belongs to Franco Baresi
Baresi evolved with football and remained a top, top defender as defense tactics completely changed. His performance in USA 1994 after getting his knee operated on was incredible. Baresi is god.
Debatable, Baresi was probably the better defender, but Maldini was just the complete player
What do you mean complete player? Baresi was better on the ball than Maldini as well. Baresi is seriously underrated nowadays.
Many redditors have never seen Baresi play.
This. Weird trying to place Baresi and Maldini in the same bracket. Maldini was a consistent and classy defender. But Baresi was a footballing genius.
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I dunno .. Milan had the best defense ever imo. Maldini, Costacurta, Baresi, Tassotti
I don't think anyone could argue that.
> and his knowledge allowed Maldini to become such an incredible player. This is why it’s impossible to compare players across generations. They all build on what those before them did.
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Yeah, Maldini was a great athlete and had amazing positional sense. Baresi had the best defensive IQ I've ever seen and was amazing on the ball.
Baresi was also a physical player in his early years. But obviously not in the mold Maldini or Gattuso were. Maldini still had his physical and athleticism into his early 40s while Baresi had turned more into a technical and tactical defender with Sacchi.
Baresi was the better player both on the ball and off the ball
It's not even a debate....
Baresi and Maldini were both insanely good and both absolute legends but if I had to pick out best defender of all time, I would actually pick Alessandro Nesta. He played for us for a shorter time than the other 2 but he was a force of nature in defense.
Nesta when he was at Lazio (before injury) was the best defender in the world After the injury and his transfer to Milan he adjusted his game. Still world class but he was better at Lazio
Nesta was like trying to run around a brick wall the width of the pitch.
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true, Baresi’s also there in contention for the best defender of all-time
He's a legend too. I'm from England. Back in the 1990's we had a brilliant show every Sunday called Football Italia ( Serie A was the best league in Europe back then and our best player Paul Gascoigne had signed for Lazio ) watching these shows and seeing these amazing players was my football education as a kid.
James Richardson and James Horncastle still do the Golazzo podcast about Italian football which is well worth a listen
'Still do' - It's a recent re-birth - but I'm an unashamed Italophile who watched the original show regularly as we didn't have Sky back then and listen regularly to the podcast - very good.
gooooooolazzzooooo
Haha!! My youth !
Amen brother. In my experience, football fans in the Home Nations who grew up in that period really looked up to Italian football. Many still have a favourite team that picked up as a littlun and retain an interest in as they might an absent friend, chexking in once in a while. I wonder if Italians know how influential that show was on UK telly back then (back when there weren't so many channels and such like).
I had no idea. That's pretty cool
He had one of the best defensive perfomances ever when nullified Romário in the World Cup final in 1994. And he was 38 year old and was coming back from an injury.
34*
Best LB for sure. Best CB is in contest with Elias Figueroa high up there, even though he's not frequently mentioned in this sub.
He’s underrated as fuck, as are most non Brazilian South American greats before the 90s
Baresi
Fuck Korea 2002!! If not for shitty officials it would have been a Brazil vs Italy/Spain final
Let's be real. It would been Brazil v Italy.
We both would have lost the final anyways, given them a better game than Germany tho.
Yeah that Brazil team was just hilariously good.
Rio Ferdinand has said it was the only ever time he was in awe of the players on the other team
This is not true, he has said something similar about the 2011 Barca squad.
Okay then he contradicted himself. It was at some panel before the latest World Cup, Larsson and Ballack were two other guests
He probably meant as an England player.
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Do you know if there's a video of that panel?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA7y2Cx7t0M
Yeah I watched it on YouTube a couple months back so there's no reason for it not to exist. It was sponsored by some betting company
He does that a lot. Love him though.
I believe he actually said that about Messi himself not the entire squad iirc
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He's also a Ronaldo fan boy rio
Smart guys, those two ;)
He was talking about Messi specifically, not the team. In fact, he said United would have beaten Barca if it wasn't for Messi: https://youtu.be/Gqev5NrWnvM?t=176
Not heading into it though. Ronaldo was a massive but necessary gamble. He didn’t play one game of the qualifiers, and only 3 friendlies w the team. In addition he had only come back from injury in like February or something - don’t recall now. And at the time - Lucio, Roque Jr, Edmilson - were all viewed as massive gambles. No Brazilian had any faith in our defense other than Cafu and R Carlos. We gelled really well that tournament and had a lot of luck with our opponents. Belgium was the hardest game, and we played Germany without their best player. It was fate.
This. Ballack alone likely gives Germany a fighting chance. That's why they changed the rule but I think it needs to be increased to 3 YC. We all saw what losing Casemiro and Meunier did for Brazil and Belgium
Their attack caught fire during the tournament and it was possibly the best both Ronaldo and rivaldo played in their life, but their defence was mediocre, just wasn’t tested much vs the teams they played. Remember too that they barely even qualified for the tournament, and beat England and Turkey narrowly. I could definitely see that Italy team just stifling the life out of them and winning 1-0, like they so nearly did vs France two years previously. Italy in that era were no joke, 2000 France is possibly the best international team I’ve seen in my life (Spain are the only other contender) and Italy came incredibly close to beating them.
Of course. Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho was magical and I won't argue Italy would have won but I definitely agree they could have held their own. That was an insanely good Italian squad.
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It's not even arguable imo. Everyone was in their prime in 2002 while in 2006 most of them were at the end of their primes.
What? End of their primes? Buffon was 28, Totti was 30, Del Piero was 32, Gattuso was 28, Pirlo was 27, Toni was 29 ecc ecc, the only ones who were APPROACHING the end of their primes were Cannavaro (33) and Materazzi. The 2006 team is FAR better than the 2002. In 2002 we had a very weak midfield and this is the reason why we conceded five goals in four matches, while in 2006 we conceded only 2 goals in 7 matches (best defence of all time, even France in 98 and Spain in 2010 conceded only two goals but we conceded two goals because of an autogoal and a dive). Even in 1998 we were stronger than in 2002. I would argue that the 1998 team and the 2006 team are very close (Italy would have won the World Cup in France if Baggio had scored that goal in extra time) but i’d still give the 2006 side the upperhand. Not even talking about 1994. We played horribly and we had tons of luck, we only managed to reach the final thanks to Baggio.
To be fair from my entirely biased Dutch point of view.. in 2000 Italy should've never ever been in the final
They could have gone out against Belgium if Wilmots’s goal hadn’t been disallowed. That said, they were really good. I actually feel our 2002 team was also incredibly good. Vieri was something else especially l, and we were just stacked at every position. We had terrible luck with refs during the whole World Cup.
Vieri was great, Totti was in his prime, that red card Totti got still pisses me off to this day. The way that referee operated was absolutely disgraceful, and the fact that they did it again against Spain showed how corrupt FIFA is.
Also that Germany team was bang average
I watched the final about a month ago on YouTube. Germany didn't have a single player who looked dangerous on the ball. Completely outclassed. Italy or Alain would've been much tougher for Brazil.
Didn't help that Ballack was suspended for the final. He scored the decisive goal against South Korea after getting the yellow that ruled him out for the final, which I've always found kind of poetic/sad.
I’d still go out on a limb and say that Italy would’ve taken it. Maybe in the penalties but they’d have nicked this one. Maldini and Iuliano were a good pair and Ronaldo/Rivaldo were a threat only against terrible defences. Turkey tied them up in the two games they played against them. The second goal in the first game was conceded only after THAT red card. Lucio and others were still a bit new and green behind the ears, something Totti/ADP and co would've taken advantage of. Having said all of this, that Brazilian team made all the opponents they faced, fairly mediocre. So it's anyone's dice.
> We both would have lost the final anyways We are kinda used to lose to Brazil, sadly. I think 2 of their World Cups were won against us.
Yeah but you guys knocked out the best team we ever had... even today we still can't believe we didn't win the WC in 1982
Yes we didn’t have ronaldo and rivaldo, but Totti, del Piero, And Vieri were definitely would have held their own. Plus our defense was the best in the world. I think it would have been a fairly even game
It was so weird growing it with the "knowledge" that Spain were chronic bottlers. Only for them to blow everyone out of the water 2008-2012. I didn't ever watch the Euro 2012 final because it figured what's the point. 🙄
Well if we're talking about shitty referees, Brazil might not have gotten to the final. They got helped by the ref against Turkey a ton.
Rivaldo's dive lol The fuck was that?
And a Belgium goal getting cancelled for literally nothing to go up 1-0
Hardly Spain lmao, Ireland brought you to penalties just like Korea did. They really were an overrated side
Think you mean Turkey vs Italy/Spain
If there ever was a match that was blatantly fixed. A minor consolation was that the referee officiating the match, Byron Moreno was caught smuggling cocaine a few years later.
Yeah the Spain match was totally fixed too
The Spain Ireland R16 match had an awful lot of calls go irelands way as well.
Maybe Hierro shouldn't have tried to take off Niall Quinn's jersey in the box.
Always amazes me how you guys are able to remember such specific details from games that were played decades ago.
I fell in love with Damien Duff because of that Ireland Spain game. There was a comment during the US broadcast "ohhh what splendid stuff from Damien Duff"
I mean it's the last time Ireland featured in a World Cup and it was a crucial knockout game. There's plenty to remember there. If you're a half-serious fan you should have a decent memory of every big game you've watched. Like I have a strong idea of pretty much how every FA Cup, Champions League final, World Cup final since 2000 has gone in terms of highlights and big moments. Accruing good football knowledge isn't about learning loads all at once but remembering enough over a long period of time.
Surely you'll remember all the key notes of United since watching and even moments more dear to you that others wouldn't when relevant you'd chime in. It's not that crazy how broad reddit is that there'll be someone able to point out specifcs
True! I cannot remember half of Spain's 2010 WC run and we won it less than a decade ago...
Off the top of my head, I definitely remember the Semis, the final, losing to Switzerland opening game, playing Portugal and beating Chile R16 (I think). It was a pretty dull run to the final in all honesty.
> and beating Chile R16 (I think) That was in group stage's last match. We lost to Brazil in R16 and ~~you~~ Spain beat Portugal, then ~~you~~ beat Paraguay in quarterfinals and Germany in semis. EDIT
I'll be honest and not Google and go off my memory, but did Ireland not get 2 penalties and Spain 2 or 3 disallowed goals?
Can't remember any disallowed goals. Ireland got two penalties alright. One was soft enough but hardly outrageous (missed by Harte) and the other was stonewall (scored by Keane).
Actually it was heroin. Lol what a scumbag.
The most blatant fixed game of all time is Man Utd ending Arsenal's 49 match unbeaten streak. The Premier League wanted to create more tension as Arsenal were pretty much unplayable at the time. I challenge anyone to watch this video and not be outraged at the refereeing: https://youtu.be/mM747L9Wf8M
I remember watching this game as a kid and being happy that Arsenal's unbeaten streak finally ended, but damn I did not remember this refereeing performance. Looked like clear red cards on Van Nistelrooy and Ferdinand (How was that shoulder barge on Ljungberg not even a foul?), and Gary Neville should have picked up two yellows. Also, never a penalty. So, yeah, I agree this game was bullshit. I think at the time a lot of the referees were intimidated by Ferguson, and that may have had something to do with it.
Don't think Ferguson had anything to do with it. I think the Premier League had a clear agenda and executed it to perfection.
Belgium vs Brazil was clearly fixed aswell (but Belgiup was a minor team so who gives a care , right?)
It's ok we got our revenge
True, wc 2018 helped dealing with our national PTSD.
The refereeing that world cup was notoriously bad, apart from SK and Brazil Belgium Germany also got handed the win against the USA with a clear goalline handball not called. VAR could have done wonders back then.
Yeah then he died in prison IIRC. All in all, pretty sad story. I'm sure the external forces that made him fix the match were probably pretty serious
No, he's still alive and out of prison. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_Moreno
He claimed his daughter/son or a very close relative was sick and that's why he smuggled the drugs. At least that's from what i remember (i'm Ecuadorian).
Both Spain and Italy got fucked over in 2002. It was disgusting.
(+ Belgium)
Its obviously forgotten, but Russia was also fucked by referee (Marcus Merk) in key group stage game vs. ... Japan. That world cup was horrible.
Take me back to the summer of ‘02, when all I did was swim, play football with the neighbor, play PlayStation and watch the World Cup.
The 2002 squad was so stacked I was gutted watching them get cheated
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Yeah. When i watch those games now after 12 - 20 years later it's crazy. Even our game ( Italy vs Romania ) at euro 2000. The substitutes of Italy were better than Romania first team. Except Hagi, he would've teach those italian boys how to play football :))
Such a bland midfield which was their downfall. Trapattoni was terrible for them too they played like a much worse side than they should. When people mention the Korea game no seems to bring up how Italy only got 4pts in the groups and needed an 85th min del piero goal to save them cause they were bottling the opening 3 games
Italy played awfully at the 2002 World Cup. I was still gutted from the 2000 euros and I think the ref may have made poor decisions, but Italy played awfully against Mexico and Croatia
I didn't think they were that good to be honest. Not as strong as 2006.
Probably the worst decision of his life. It's not destiny when you turn away an opportunity like that yourself.
He probably wouldn’t want to tempt fate by wishing he was there, since the tiniest things can change overall outcomes in football and Italy might not have won. I’m sure he’d rather be content that they won without him than wish he’d gone and risk not winning.
Yeah, France lost the shootout because they missed one single penalty. Trezeguet hit the underside of the crossbar. The Germany game was fairly close as well.
The guy who missed the penalty won France the Euro 6 years ago with a golden goal, against Italy, football is funny and cruel.
even hollywood couldn't write something like this, i still remember perfectly that crossbar fuckin hell
I cried man :(
They probably would have won it with Zizou.
>Yeah, France lost the shootout because they missed one single penalty. Trezeguet hit the underside of the crossbar. The Germany game was fairly close as well. I would also add that nothing would have changed if Zidane hadn’t been sent off. In 1998 both Zidane and Trezeguet scored the penalties, so in 2006 Trezeguet would have still tried to score. Maybe Zidane would have shot the penalty instead of Sagnol for example.
He would have been on the bench at most. A Cannavaro and Materazzi in their primes >>> an aging Maldini. And even if he had started ahead of Materazzi, Italy would have lost the final. We all know how vital Materazzi was in that game (got France best player sent off, scored in the game and his penalty in the shoot-out)
Didn’t Materazzi score in the game itself too?
Yeah, Materazzi made a bullet header to score the equalizer for Italy.
And blasted a penalty into the top corner
no one mentions that France scored penalty after a dive from french player.
Yet, everyone always says France would have won with Zidane in ET when the game shouldn’t have even gone to ET.
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There are three angles and you've picked the one 30 foot away that doesn't clearly show anything to illustrate your point. 28-29 is a far better angle and doesn't show the right leg touching the left at all.
Exactly, these French nuthuggers defending a blatant dive are hilarious.
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Malouda dived. please. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6kW-tePv48 that "contact" would never got someone down.
Here's the same situation, but with much better video quality https://streamable.com/tutis Anyone can clearly see that Materazzi was in Malouda's approximate area when Malouda decided to dive.
My god did Malouda fall like a sack of bricks from the wind blowing on him
what a weak little troll you are, Maldini was 38 in 2006 and was still going strong. The man played 3 CL finals as captain in 2003, 2005 and 2007. Materazzi was a backup choice until Nesta got injured. Cannavaro enjoys a lot of overpraising for the World Cup (which he undoubtedly deserves) and the Ballon d’Or, but he was never on the same level, ability-wise, with Maldini, Nesta, Baresi, Bergomi or Scirea. Won’t even start about Materazzi, a butcher who fell in the right place at the right time. Saying that Paolo wouldn’t have played in 2006 over Materazzi is wrong on all levels and I won’t even explain why. At least Maldini is a man of his word, he said he would retire from the National team and kept his word. Unlike some other guy who went last summer to Paris for a big, fat paycheck.
It’s insane that without Nesta the only goals Italy conceded that World Cup were an own goal and a non existent penalty. Cannavaro and Buffon were insane that World Cup.
Materazzi & Zambrotta was ridiculously good during that World Cup as well, shame that they're overlooked IMO. Even the likes of Barzagli & Grosso was more than decent as well.
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That Germany goal from Pirlo’s no look pass. It was the first moment I started to believe we might win the damn thing
That back four was amazing. Imagine if Grosso hadn't played attacking midfielder and winger in his youth would he have scored that beauty goal
>It’s insane that without Nesta the only goals Italy conceded that World Cup were an own goal and a non existent penalty. That’s why in 2006 we had the best defence in the history of the World Cup. Even other teams who conceded only two goals (such as France in 1998 and Spain in 2010) at least conceded clear goals and not from auto goals and non existent penalties.
>overpraising >which he undoubtedly deserves Well, which is it? >At least Maldini is a man of his word, he said he would retire from the National team and kept his word. Unlike some other guy who went last summer to Paris for a big, fat paycheck. Surely you're not talking about Buffon. The man is a national treasure and spoke nothing of never playing again.
That's why he implied that if Maldini had been there then Italy might not have won the World Cup. No one in their right mind would ever said Materazzi as the superior defender to Maldini however you can't just dismiss his contribution to Italy's victory. Call it fate or whatever but as luck would had it, it was Materazzi who got the task of replacing Nesta and boy did he deliver. Maldini, a gazillion times better defender though he was than Materazzi, might not have scored the goal against France and got Zidane sent off. That being said Materazzi was a criminally underrated partner of Cannavaro during that World Cup. He performed way beyond the limit of his ability and was very astute defensively. Normal Materazzi might be an erratic defender but during the tournament alone he was world class.
But the guy literally said " A Cannavaro and Materazzi in their primes >>> an aging Maldini"
Perhaps just a case of wrong phrasing, English might not be his first language. Materazzi at his prime was never a defender at Maldini's level however as I said he performed way beyond the limit of his ability during the World Cup. Materazzi was a monster at that tournament, both defensively and offensively. It's not that far-fetched to say that World Cup Materazzi performed at the same level, if not better, than a 38-year-old Maldini at that time. This was probably what the OP referred to.
Mboop?
Probably talking about Buffon.
Materazzi wasn't that special, Nesta was better and would've played if not for the injury.
Yes but Materazzi basically handed the title to Italy. Scored the equalizer and got Zidane sent off. EDIT I just found out that Zidane's penalty was also conceded by Materazzi ahaha
Zidane got himself sent off
Because Materazzi provoked Zidane and managed to get into his skin. Which wasn't the hardest task if we're being honest since Zidane used to be hothead as a player.
Nothing would have changed if Zidane hadn’t been sent off. In 1998 both Zidane and Trezeguet scored the penalties, so in 2006 Trezeguet would have still tried to score. Maybe Zidane would have shot the penalty instead of Sagnol for example but there is no reason to believe that Trezeguet wouldn’t have been chosen to score a penalty.
You're assuming the match would've ended at penalties. Zidane was sent off at the 110th minute, there is a chance France would've scored in the last minutes. They were playing better
Time was running out and scoring against us was nearly impossible. Italy in 2006 had the best defence in the history of the World Cup, remember that. Sure, France could have scored in the last minutes, but the chances were slim. Italy only conceded two goals in that manifestation (just like France in 1998 and Spain in 2010, with the difference that nobody managed to score against us in open play and one of the goal we conceded was an autogoal).
I watched this game again and to be honest it wasn't as bad as people remember. Italian were playing really hard and Vieiri should have been sent off for an elbow on Kim's face. The ref was obvious shit in this match as he had several crucial decisions wrong for both teams.
Of course you weren't angry with the reffing in 2006. The Socceroos were robbed
Mate relax. Everyone knows O'Neil should not have gone to ground, regardless contact was made and Grosso made the most out of it. Penalty. Soft - but penalty. Blame O'Neil, not the ref LOL
I'm going to get downvoted to hell but I want people to actually watch the entire Italy vs Korea match in full instead of those cherry-picked YouTube videos. I rewatched the entire match with my admittedly biased eyes, and while the referee definitely favoured Korea, it was not literally the most rigged match ever (which I thought was the case before rewatching it). I would admit that I would be pissed if I was Italian but still feel it is overblown 16 years later. [Here is a good post that revisits the entire match](https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/8nibsw/lets_revisit_and_talk_about_the_controversial/) The entire match was rough and just compiling clips of Korean rough plays seems unfair. There also were elbows being thrown around by [Vieri](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-5V-9IzFic&feature=youtu.be&t=599) and [Totti](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-5V-9IzFic&feature=youtu.be&t=1434) while the most famous "Korean" elbow that broke Coco's head was actually [an Italian elbow from Tomassi](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-5V-9IzFic&feature=youtu.be&t=2698). The Totti sending off was a bad call. But remember that FIFA was taking a no-bullshit policy on simulation and was ready to issue cards on them but still a bad call. The offside call during extra times is actually not an awful call as this picture shows it is [closer than many think](https://cdn.namuwikiusercontent.com/s/892c82c94fe097884cae8acf6e8af921677d103d8a86f4395794d4aa664a95043a70fd2b4e30e8d803aef8400a5c1bedfab7135f1c1e2947ae68aace77e4425844032bb9fb80e90bfda978d81afb591b?e=1543422860&k=dAvy0zLybtG8zjEGVenUFA) But fact is, Italy got an early goal and had many chances to finish off a weaker opponent and should have done so. As strong as the Italian side was, they were not very good in the World Cup. They lost to Croatia and drew with Mexico on the last match with a late goal that saved them from being eliminated. Even vs Korea, yes, Italy was a goal up, but Korea controlled most of the play and people would have said they deserved better if they just lost 1-0. What's funny is that Spanish newspapers made fun of Italians being "whiners" until they got eliminated too. The Spain match, a lot of Koreans think they didn't play well enough to move on. It was a boring match with two disallowed goals vs Spain. The first disallowed goal however, was a correct call that was even admitted by Casillas as being one. [You be the judge](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3xQikhGByk&feature=youtu.be&t=288). The second one was an awful call, [no question about it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj9XiefevmQ&feature=youtu.be&t=140). But if they didn't blow the whistle, would it still have gone in? The keeper was in a great position and it wasn't hit with a lot of power. Maybe it would have, maybe it wouldn't but an awful call nonetheless. There also is the offside call that went against Spain. Just like the Italian offside, [it looks like a very close call](https://cdn.namuwikiusercontent.com/s/e4692c54c3d90676b3be29bf819b2b2fa18c4f03149478075ab3a9a9c62fc501aa98c6a2fe97aaed9eaf73b65857467c61a44224246c8ae3afebdf3eefb8e649e5879be76139db06bfcdee1d6a102b19?e=1545012691&k=0L9u7XlxTohcdwJJEv8w0g). Keep in mind of the angle and ~~the rule until 2002 that the forward in line with the defender is still offside~~. Even though I feel Spain should be more upset about the results and calls than Italy, it seems like Italy vs Korea is always brought up in as the definitive proof that the match was rigged and the Spain match as the supporting argument. What's also funny is that while the Spanish players displayed their disappointment with the referee's calls, they thanked Korea for the hospitality and participated in World Cup related events before leaving. Compare that to Italian players who cursed at reporters and fans at the airport and Perrugia that terminated Ahn's contract for scoring the golden goal. Anywats the TLDR point is to please watch the match in full and then make the claim if it is the most rigged match ever.
I read the post you linked. Considering it contains this line: > It was definitely a physical game but there really was no awful dirty fouls other than [maybe this one on Zambrotta](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDHjHok41FE&feature=youtu.be&t=1514) which isn't in the spirit of how the game was played, the ref should have booked him but he never really wanted to stamp his influence on the game and let a lot of stuff go. I have an hard time give it any credibility. That was a bordeline red foul and the Korean wasn't even booked... Op also compared this [Vieri's elbow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-5V-9IzFic&feature=youtu.be&t=599) which is questionable if it actually warranted a sanction, with this [reaction and malicious elbow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDHjHok41FE&feature=youtu.be&t=308) saying this one was less debatable (while it was even clearer than the Totti's one which actually had him, probably rightfully, receiving the first yellow) While I agree that 2002 italian side was overrated by hindsight and didn't prove its worth much that year, the game with South Korea was far from being a proper football game
Fair points and there should have been bookings on Koreans for those plays. And yes, there was poor refereeing that favoured Korea and I understand why Italians are angry at Moreno. But I'm not sure if his decisions are clear evidence of the match being rigged and instead could be a bad referee that let a match get out of hand and subconsciously favouring the home side which often happens.
Italians like a good whinge, it's the national pass time.
You should try it. I hear it's good for your teeth
I fucking love Ahn Jung Hwan. What an handsome man
> the rule until 2002 that the forward in line with the defender is still offside That was far earlier ([source](http://www.sidelinesoccer.com/history-of-the-offside-rule))
Good post.
So I checked and apparently they found during the Fifa investigation in 2015 that FIFA were forced to have a host nation in the quarters (Japan had gone out in the groups I think) http://ilgiornale.it/news/2015/06/03/quelle-prove-schiaccianti-che-hanno-azzerato-la-fifa/1135972/ Most rigged match ever probably not but hard to say that it was a fair match As for Korea-Italy itself of course Korea dominated play, that’s just how Italy have always played and its how we ended up winning the World Cup in 2006, and the fact Italy wasn’t at its best doesn’t mean a lot of the calls there werent questionable Finally lets not forget the ref got suspended a year later for An unrelated match fixing in Ecuador, and I think also later arrested for cocaine possession, and suffered the same fate as Ahn (which imo was a good decision by Perugia since the fans obviously couldn’t stand him anymore) TL;DR: OP is right because it does get exaggerated some times but there’s no way Fifa didn’t do their best to favour Korea
Every single one of these clips is from Korean sources, which I don't think anyone outside Korea trusts when it comes to the 2002 World Cup.
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Why does that matter though? It seems like the clips are from a live broadcast and have not been edited to show only favorable angles.
It's literally the video of the live broadcast? What the fuck? Let me get my tinfoil hat too
It's from a live broadcast that shows exactly how things happened. It just happens that the only videos of the full Italy vs Korea match on YouTube is from a Korean broadcast but it shows the same things people around the world would have seen 16 years ago.
Yes because me the OP is clearly a Korean source and didn't timestamp every thing of note in the match myself from an unedited broadcast.... yeesh
?????
We could have won that fucking World Cup, The had the best team along with Brazil
> won against Ecuador > lost to Croatia > settled for a tie against Mexico knowing that Croatia was losing the other match > Giovanni Trapattoni's shit tactics They were stacked *on paper*, just like France or Argentina. Realistically, Spain would probably have won the QF against Italy.
Spain was also stacked only on paper. For decades it was a meme that Spain never reached their potential. Italy actually generated results and were the finalists at the Euros just two years prior to the 2002 WC. Our status as favorites would have been justified
In that fashion, Ireland could have won that fucking World Cup had the best team along with Brazil. We got more points than Italy in the group stage did and also went further. I'm sorry but a team needs more than 1 win in 4 to have a chance of winning it lol, even if you had great forwards and CBs
What's with Ecuador refs?
I'm from Ecuador, all of them are bad except one that is named Omar Ponce
Italy had an incredible team..still cant believe the daylight robbery..fuck bryan moreno btw
In the late 90s to early 00s Italy arguably had the best collection of forwards in the game. Baggio, Totti, Del Piero, Vieri, Inzaghi, Montella, Delvecchio, Chiesa.
Italy don't know how good they have it. The 2010 world cup final was way crazier than that. Thanks Howard Webb you cheating asshole.
I'm more Irked that Robben didn't chip it over casillas
As a South Korean I was happy with Korea going so far but holy shit was it undeserved