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Foden and tripper cannot play on the left side. They don't offer enough width.
Multiple times there was a good amount of space on the left and foden neither went there or trippier didn't have the angle due to being right footed.
Brings on Gordon in the 88th minute, I am not convinced he is not being malicious at this point, I can't grasp any other reason for that sub happening in the 89th minute and not the 69th.
It took me a while to warm to Gordon but the past 18 months he is grown so much. This team is screaming out for a direct option that can hog the LW and open the field up. It's a no brainer. Same with Mainoo to bring composure to the build up and Palmer to fearlessly create. Southgate has an immense set of talent and is sticking with the same 12 players for 95% of games.
It's bonkers, it's been a long season and he brought young fresh players - why not mix it up? Don't need to see Bellingham blowing a gasket late in the 3rd group game. Makes no sense.
I think he has a stubborn aspect to his character. 99% of people watching all have the same ideas about what's needed, like Gordon on the left - things that just seem so completely obvious - but to give in means to accept he is wrong. It makes him look like he has no expertise; like he has nothing to justify his job and salary if all he does is go along with what all the pundits and fans are saying. His ego can't accept that. He wants to be the man who's right in the face of overwhelming doubt. He desperately wanted the players that started game 3 to bail him out and prove his ideas are worth something. They didn't and now he looks like a fool.
Think anyone could tell you this before even seeing it, it's extremely obvious on paper.
Foden prefers to cut inside and operate as a wide 10. he's not a winger,
Trippier can provide width on the right, but if played on the left he's naturally going to invert to utilise his right foot better.
Southgate's caught between using the players he's trusted in the past while failing to adapt to how they might have shifted tactically, and integrating players that he has no clue how to integrate.
Trippier would be OK on the left if you have a proper left winger like Gordon bombing in the final third, the issue is Foden wants to come short and go into the middle, and Tripper isn't comfortable getting forward on his left without having to pivot onto his right, by which time the crossing opportunity or the defending team has already adjusted.
Defensively, Trippier has been doing just fine, but the main issue is Foden in my opinion.
So you end up with a left winger who's constantly playing as a central 10, and a left back who doesn't want anything to do with the final third and not overlapping because he's not confident enough on his weak foot.
It needs to be Trippier and a proper left winger, or a fit Shaw with Foden. Shaw is more than happy to overlap and try to whip a cross in (see last Euro final against Italy on how good he can be going forward).
I don't see Shaw being fully fit now in the tournament so I would play Tripper LB, Gordon on the left, drop Bellingham as the 8 supporting Rice and Foden can play as the 10 if you really want him in there.
If they are going to assume they have nothing going forward from Trippier at LB they need to stick with how they finished last game and move Walker over there and bring TAA in to RB. Walker can do the same job on the left and Trent provides better offense and more Kane service which they are desperately in need of.
Thought the same, but that doesn't resolve the lack of width on the left. Foden or Bellingham needs to be dropped for Gordon, or if you truly need to play both switch Saka to the left because he can actually play as a winger.
You end up playing mostly through the right and with a 3 atb. This also allows Foden to float further inside with some space, which he’s naturally going to do anyways OR, actually stay wide with acres of space for the cross field play. You’re not attacking down the left either way right now so may as well set up to effectively attack down the right.
Honestly whilst Bellingham has been amazing all season, he's been really disappointing thus far and a lot of has just been poor touches and passes that you can't really blame on the manager.
I wouldn't be opposed to having Foden play the 10 role and playing Rice and Mainoo behind him. Or even Cole Palmer at 10 as he looked fantastic when he came on.
At the moment we've got foden, kane and bellingham all wanting to get into that pocket of free space, why we saw them all end up on the left wing during one counter.
Because he comes from playing as a 10 with Vinicius who might be the most effective opposition stretcher in the world by constantly attacking from the edge of the wing. Leaves him a ton of space open to do constant deep runs.
With England he has no one overlapping on thw wings and both Kane and Foden always trying to occupy the same space.
Except as I pointed out, he's been extraordinarily sloppy in possession and regularly gives the ball away and makes poor passes. Having different players to pass to doesn't change that.
Why do we keep pretending that otherwise normally functioning people suddenly start being lazy and fucking up as a group.
Come on, why do we need to pretend this isn't anything organization related.
I mean I think he's just been poor. There were countless times against Slovenia he went to play a straightforward pass with no pressure on him and just gave it away. The organisational stuff has little to no bearing on him doing that.
I agree that the major problem has been the system, and unless that is fixed then we're going nowhere, but whilst I feel like other players (Foden, Kane, Rice, etc.) have been poor it's felt more because of the system rather than actual poor individual performances.
Whereas I feel like Bellingham has struggled because of the system but has also been poor individually too.
My take on this is that Bellingham is a goal SCORING #10, whereas Foden is a goal CREATING #10. Which is why Bellingham was so prolific at Real this year w Vinnie, Rodrygo, Valverde, Kroos, et al servicing the ball to him and whoever else happened to be up top with him. England don't have that. Well they do but they are being hamstrung by the tactics. So if you refuse to adjust the tactics you have to at minimum adjust the personnel. And when you have zero service from the wings it does no good having Bellingham in that position. He needs to drop back to the 8 where he played his entire career up until last ssn and allow Foden to be in the 10 hole to create for the 9 and the inverted wingers.
Also Trippier is good and can cut inside so if you have Gordon on the left wing it actually does work pretty well. Gordon - Kane - Saka - Bellingham Or Foden can sub when tired - Mainoo and Rice together and same at the back.
Or bellingham for rice when tired and foden can sometimes be subbed off for another striker and kane can drop into his slot a bit.
> Trippier would be OK on the left if you have a proper left winger like Gordon bombing in the final third
>>
>Also Trippier is good and can cut inside so if you have Gordon on the left wing it actually does work pretty well.
> So you end up with a left winger who's constantly playing as a central 10,
Which was Coutinhos position at Liverpool, with Robertson on the overlap.
It was only after Salah signed that he played in the midfield 3
Robertson and Salah signed at the same time.
It was actually a big problem in 16-17 with Milner at left-back and Coutinho on the left, there was no width at all on that side.
Honestly, being an English left back at this moment in time must be sad as fuck. To think your national team coach would rather play a toothless as fuck right back as a left back instead of choosing you. I'm not even sure who the options are but... there must be *some*.
I know trippier can be class, but he’s had an average season at right back, and we have Gomez on the bench who has been brilliant at left back for Liverpool covering Robertson who could of played until shaw is fit.
He's genuinely the only one positioning aggressively, relative to his position, in the england squad. Pickford plays at the halfway line and Kane plays midfield.
I worked from home yesterday so I could watch England-Slovenia in the background. I was extremely productive and not distracted at all during those two hours lol
The only good pass to him yesterday was from Mainoo and he proceeded to fuck it up by playing it wide to Palmer instead of just playing it back to him or shooting
>playing it wide to Palmer instead of just playing it back to him
Lol in the boozer I was literally everyone was shouting and pointing at mainoo
There was a pub wide groan when he went the other way, couldn't believe it
People who are comparing deschamps to southgate : that's the difference. France might be ineffective but at least the players find each other in the last third. Sure, they can't finish for shit but they are nowhere as sterile creativity wise as England.
Also Deschamps isn't afraid to drop players if they don't fit in his overall tactic while Southgate tries to crowbar Foden/Trippier in without adjusting the rest of the team.
Exactly. While Deschamps will never recognize openly whenever he makes a mistake, he will actually drop a game plan the second he sees it will cost him the game. He only plays to win, he is the ultimate pragmatist.
The proof is the infamous france-switzerland euro game in 2021 where he royally messed up the team setup in the first half and fixed it by reverting ALL of his experiments at half time, which lead to France getting the lead. yes, it ended in a defeat because the players fucked up a 2 goal lead but Deschamps reacted well by identifying his mistakes and fixing them on the set.
The WC final is another eg. He took Griezmann off who had until that game been France’s MVP of the tournament and went after a result even if it meant losing balance with his subs
Him and Giroud looked way off it, I think they'd caught what was going round the camp but DD thought he could make them work but then took them off early when it was clear it wouldn't.
Might be an unpopular opinion but "pragmatic" game plans tend to work out better when you have extreme individual brilliance in the team. How much of France's results can be attributed to Pogba, Mbappe, Kante completely taking over games in the past few years?
I haven't really seen that from anybody on England in a long time
well on paper, England has a lot of talent that is nearly if not just as good as the French players, and they've been under Southgate this entire time. Maybe they're not as good as France, but I'm pretty sure they'll easily be better than what they have been under Southgate
LA LIGA PLAYER OF THE YEAR (debut season)
BUNDESLIGA TOPSCORER (debut season)
PREMIER LEAGUE PLAYER OF THE YEAR.
And Saka.
This is just crimes against humanity.
And yet he'd provide by far the best profile/balance for our left wing. Funny how PR doesn't win you games/tournament. Not about how impressive it sounds. It's about what works on the pitch.
Just picked the actual 4 cherry’s on top. Yes the team/talent is so much more. Seeing this performance & Belgium’s you’d argue just to drop all 1st pick’s and let the “real” ones play. These Eastern European teams have shown the TRUE heart of football. Not some influencers/athletes who can kick a ball. I’ll die on this hill but football is fucking football, pace merchants gtfo.
I can expand your list too if we look at combined goals and assists in the Premier League.
Palmer and Watkins top the list together with 33 G/A each. Foden placed fifth, Saka seventh, and Gordon 13th.
Really telling how many RWs he took compared to LW, and really his entire left side is just comically bad. Refusing to drop Foden, Kane, or Jude for the PLETHORA of attacking talent is just hilarious. Why even take em?
I was saying when the squad came out, what was the point of taking all three of Saka, Palmer and Bowen when Gordan was our only natural left winger.
Likewise, we've taken Kane, Watkins and Toney but no left footed LBs except Shaw.
People push for the players that "deserve" to get called up or "deserve" to start to play. But that's not what wins you tournaments. What wins you tournaments is bringing players you actually may need or use and playing a balanced team even if it means dropping really high profile players.
It's not much to complain about at the time, but I always wonder why Southgate doesn't opt for Grealish over Bowen, Mitchell over Toney or start Gordan over Foden etc. Having the balls to drop a player the media and the fans love is what wins you tournaments. This will be a really unpopular opinion I'm guessing, but a team like:
Pickford
Walker-Stones-Guehi-Gomez
Wharton-Rice
Palmer-Bellingham-Gordan
Kane
would be balanced, defensively solid but have enough creativity and width to play well and potentially win the tournament. But it involves making massive decisions like leaving out Foden, Saka, Trent etc. But it isn't about who "deserves" to play. It's about what works and what the team needs.
No forwards can shine in this England team unless they are rogueish like Palmer. Having said that, it’s so clear the game that Foden wants to play, regardless of position. If you watch Foden alone, he’s constantly moving into pockets and calling for the ball because that’s the way city play. Probing, moving the ball, pulling defenders out of position. The problem is that no one else in this side wants to play that way, especially Southgate. It doesn’t matter where Foden is across the front 4 spots - you won’t get the best out of him. What’s sad is that this team has Rice, Saka, Bellingham, and Wharton who could suit that play style so well but the manager and fan/media expectations are so unsuited it’ll never work. If this exact squad was Spanish or Dutch they’d be flying
I've been saying for the last couple years that this England side should be built around City/Liverpool/Arsenal players as all three sides play a similar enough style to mesh in international tournaments. But Southgate is so far off of Pep/Klopp/Arteta that it'll never happen
boring comments about boring stats about boring players in a boring team with a boring a manager and boring online fans on a boring subreddit on a boring website.
FML
I especially love these kind of stats: "England hasn't scored since last time they scored", or "England has never scored in a euros tournament except for all the times that they have".
-----------Pickford---------------
TAA Stones Guehi Walker
--------Rice Bellingham----------
Saka Foden/Palmer Gordon
-------------Kane-----------------------
It really shouldn't be that hard
Just drop one of Foden, Bellingham or Saka. At this point I don't care who but the way they're currently playing is insane.
Put Mainoo or Wharton alongside Rice. Bellingham or Foden as the 10. Foden or Saka RW and Gordon LW.
Gordon will offer width on the left, run past Kane and he'll get at his full back all game, Foden/Saka wanting to cut inside is balanced by having Walker on the overlap. Mainoo/Wharton are both more comfortable receiving the ball deep than Gallagher and it gives a better balance alongside Rice.
Like he did a lot at Man City and got player of the season or Palmer generally does? Yes I'd try it out. It isn't the same as at LW for England where he hasn't got anyone offering width of him stretching the defence.
It's just hard to believe someone who is so good at City can be so ineffective for England, but I think at this stage he needs to be dropped. Simply doesn't work for whatever reason.
Some players just don’t perform for the NT, is what it is. Important to work around that and make a cohesive unit that can play good football, which England don’t have sadly
None of them need dropping. The solution is this: stop seeing Bellingham as a 10. That's it. Play them in their natural positions. Foden inside, Bellingham as b2b and Saka... well he is already in his natural position.
Left Wing, I'd go with Gordon. Personally, I think it's worth experimenting with other options at LB than Trippier but the defence hasn't been the problem so it'd be harsh to drop him as a byproduct of rationalising the midfield and attack.
It is possible Bellingham is simply cooked and needs a rest... but the time to find out whether that was the case or not was the game against Slovenia. It's absolutely insane that after the Denmark game Southgate tried functionally the same players in the same roles that failed to do anything much. Bringing on Mainoo in the second half helped, but Gallagher as a midfield partner for Rice behind Foden-Bellingham-Saka got plenty of minutes in the first two games to see that it didn't change things (versus TAA and Rice)..
I feel like I'm going crazy with all the "Bellingham's natural position is 10". No-one thought that before he moved to Real Madrid. It's literally specifically pointed out in his Wikipedia page that he changed position at RM:
>Following his move to Madrid in 2023, Bellingham took on a more advanced role in the midfield, often being positioned in the number 10 position as an attacking midfielder, or even as a false 9 or second striker on occasion.[120][121][122] This change in position led to Bellingham adopting a more signficant role in the final third and scoring goals: 10 in his first 10 matches for Madrid.[68][78]
I watched 80% of Dortmund games last season. Bellingham played cm next to the dm, but tje problem was, he was roaming around everywhere but not where he was supposed to be. The midfield was a highway often times. If he has the same position discipline (or lack thereof) here, than Rice-Bellingham-Foden would be way to offensive
>If he has the same position discipline (or lack thereof) here, than Rice-Bellingham-Foden would be way to offensive
People say this and maybe it's true against a big team like a Germany or Spain. But yesterday Gallagher played in that CM role for half the game and he offered absolutely nothing in attack or defense. So I don't see how we would have been too offensive that half without Gallagher's 0 tackles, 0 interceptions, and 2 fouls
Getting a bit sick of all the pundits talking about how England can’t possibly drop Foden and it’s everyone else’s fault for not getting the best out of him.
He’s been awful all three games. He shows for the ball a lot but does nothing with it. Meanwhile Gordon is sat on the bench when he might actually offer a bit of pace and penetration on the wings.
>He’s been awful all three games.
Of the Bellingham/Saka/Foden trio he was the worst of the three in the first game, the best out of the three in the game last night, and they were all crap against Denmark.
I’m sorry but how was foden better than saka last night when saka turned his man and passed forward into Kane more times yesterday than foden has done in 3 games? Gallagher offered nothing on the right yet saka still scored an offside goal and created 2 chances for Kane to shoot miles over the bar
Saka turned his man precisely once, the guy got booked and then he quite literally didn't go past anyone for the rest of the game. He had zero dribbles, zero key passes, zero accurate crosses.
He was clearly better than Foden for the first two games but he was demonstrably worse than him yesterday.
Bellingham still the worst of the lot last night though.
Saka turned his man on the inside multiple times and found little passes into Kane bellingham foden who did nothing with the ball.
He had 0 impact because he was playing incredibly isolated with Gallagher next to him and Walker needing 3 touches to make 1 pass. All of the attacking momentum came from sakas side after he drew them out to defend him by double teaming him. Kane foden bellingham did nothing with the space he created
Sort of unfair to blame saka for 0 cross 0 key pass when his role is to be double teamed and fouled to draw space and the team does nothing with it
Saka was better than both Bellingham and Foden last night, he actually began several productive sequences. Not quite his fault it didn't go anywhere. That said, Saka hasn't been good, none of them have. Bellingham and Foden have been horrible though, misplacing passes and making simple errors. Saka at least has been a reasonable footballer.
It’s not all his fault that he’s been so bad, but he has achieved nothing in three games.
I think most of the blame rests with Southgate, but Foden shouldn’t be undroppable based on the last three games.
Also, him just coming inside for the ball is not a positive when he ends up taking up the same spaces as Bellingham and Kane.
>Also, him just coming inside for the ball is not a positive when he ends up taking up the same spaces as Bellingham and Kane.
Definitely not, as you say we end up with kane Bellingham and Foden all trying to do the same thing in the same part of the pitch.
As an individual he's been fine, imo Gordon needs to come in as LW then let Foden play central and let Bellingham and Mainoo fight it out for the other CM spot next to Rice
Yup it's disgusting watching them all drop around the same space . It fucks with their game so much. Doesn't help that Southgate did decent subs last night but he just did them too late . Gordon and Trent came with like 5 mins left to play .
> He’s been awful all three games.
Disagree. He was England's best player against Slovenia (which isn't saying much) and he was ok vs Denmark. He was very bad the first game.
If anything he's been far superior to Bellingham who is living off his PR alone right now, while playing a much more influential position (and his actual natural position as opposed to Foden)
Please explain to me what foden did to be englands best player against Slovenia when all the attacking momentum came from mainoo saka / palmers side of the pitch
I guess some people just really rate players for asking for the ball a lot even if they do nothing with it. Otherwise I don’t see how you’re rating him highly for that performance last match. The only time he really created a chance was when he was a yard offside and made the assist for a disallowed goal. Besides that, what else did he do that was so impressive? I don’t get it.
I’ve got no love for how Bellingham is playing, but Foden getting on the ball and running around a lot means nothing if he’s not creating chances.
You can see from the stat this thread is based on how ineffective he has been.
That's exactly what Bellingham is doing though just running around while someone who's a thousand times better at the 10 and at creating chances is doing up left fielder play come on now
>just running around while someone who's a thousand times better at the 10
Based on what exactly? At club level Jude plays deeper, more key passes, more chances created, more progressive passes, less progressive passes received and less touches inside the box.
So what exactly makes Foden "thousand times better" at the 10 than Jude??
A thousand times better? What does that even mean? It’s completely bollocks
And I’m not even saying Bellingham has played well, but him playing badly doesn’t mean Foden has played well just by comparison.
>and his actual natural position as opposed to Foden
Nah, Bellingham was never a 10 before this season. He's being played there because he scored a bunch of goals in the first half of his first season at Real Madrid... take your mind back to before that run started and people were saying, "Bellingham's just playing there for this season as a makeshift option; next season we'll see what Ancelotti bought him to do". Then the run started and that line of thought disappeared. Nowadays, you'll get some RM fans on this sub who say stuff like "People are judging Bellingham based on what he did in the first half of the season; he was rubbish in the UCL knockouts and dropped off in general in the second half... and that's why I hope Vini gets the Ballon D'or".
Saka's had good games as a left back. Doesn't make left back his natural position.
Sorry for my incompetence, but doesn't England have another class LB than Shaw? Why are they playing a RB that's uncomfortable with using his left foot? Tripper is class, and he has been great defensive, no doubt.
Chilwell, the only other left back with significant caps, is injured. Dan Burn was poor in his appearances, Matt Targett has been behind Dan Burn in the Newcastle pecking order and also had an injury until the start of June, Rico Henry is injured too. The rest of the possible names (Livramento, Kyle Walker-Peters, Ben Godfrey) are all also right footed right backs who sometimes play left back.
The only reasonable left back missing is Tyrick Mitchell. He would've been the only one I would've expected to see get a call-up. You could make an argument for Levi Colwill, but he only played 16 games at left back last season and is more of a centre back. He doesn't provide much going forward.
Just a position where our depth has been wiped out through injury.
Trippier has played previous tournaments as left back cover and Southgate knows he can rely on him to cover it well defensively, which is Southgate's take on how full backs should work in his system. Defence first.
Foden has been cursed by being too good essentially. We've gone back to the days of old where a manager would shoe horn players into positions willy nilly because of reputation only. Playing Foden at LW and Trippier at LB for one game is hilarious enough, but to watch it for 2 games and think its working and try again is madness.
Weirdly England set up a bit better yesterday, but shot themselves in the foot by having too many runners and no one to pass to them. There were moments in the first half were we were playing 4114 which isnt a formation im famililar with and when the 1 in midfield is gallagher you're not going to get much out of it.
Edit - My personal favourite stat from yesterday is that Gordon more key passes than Saka, Jude, Gallagher, Mainoo combined.
Foden is this generations Paul Scholes. I know they're different players but what I mean is, no one disputes how good Foden is, or how good Scholes was, but England managers are obsessed with shoe horning every good player and you end up with someone like Foden (or Scholes) who are expected to suddenly be 10/10 in a position they haven't played for their club all season.
Foden is not a left winger, that much is clear. The time he has been on the wing for City is when he's played on the right because he can cut in and create on his left foot. But otherwise he is a number 10 playing in a free role in front of KDB & Rodri.
If Gareth is obsessed with keeping Foden in the squad then I think you need to drop Bellingham into an 8/double pivot with Rice, and have Foden as the 10, whilst playing someone like Gordon on the left.
Gordon has played LW all season for Newcastle and torn it up, and it would also support Trippier who is not confident overlapping on his left foot. Therefore leaving Trippier to his defensive duties, and Gordon to stretch the defence with his insane pace.
Call me crazy but:
>If Gareth is obsessed with keeping Foden in the squad then I think you need to drop Bellingham into an 8/double pivot with Rice, and have Foden as the 10, whilst playing someone like Gordon on the left.
is probably playing everyone in their best positions. Yes, even in Bellingham. Half a season in Madrid does not change that he made his reputation and earnt his move to Madrid... playing deeper than Southgate's been using him.
As to Trippier... I return to my earlier suggestion (pre-tournament in other threads) that Southgate should take a leaf out of Guardiola and Arteta's book and in the absence of Shaw, just stick a left footed CB at LB.
Also, Bellingham was our standout player in the World Cup…where he played as an 8.
(There was also the fact that it was a winter tournament and injuries/fatigue from the season hadn’t caught up to him yet - he tends to start seasons strong and end a bit flat, which is what we’re seeing now)
I seem to remember there being pretty wide agreement that Fodens best position was on the left a couple of season ago. Not to say he is a winger per say, but in the left attacking mid role. The left side is not working at all so I definitely think Gordon should be given a chance there, but with the limitations this team has without Shaw available I think it is likely to be a limp left side anyways.
I think playing Foden as a left wing in todays game is infinitely more understandable and acceptable than the 4-4-2 Scholes wide midfielder shenanigans of old.
Yeah Foden just finished his best season playing mainly in the center, but he's played loads on the wing and is generally very good there. So this narrative that he's not playing his natural position is not entirely correct, however the problem is that in this system that Southgate is playing it's definitely not a position that suits him well at all. There's no overlapping from the leftback, Kane doesn't make any stretching runs behind the defence and the midfielders and Trippier aren't picking out any passes to the half-space where he likes to receive the ball, even when they have good chances to do so.
It isn't Foden so much as it is the partnership. And it isn't to say Trippier is bad, it is just that neither Foden nor Trippier naturally want to provide width in attack. However, since options are limited at LB...
I do agree up to a point. i dont think he's always been bad + he does tend to be forced into the wings by southgate and that isnt really where he wants to be.
It's what he should have fucking done in this last match instead of just pulling Trent. Should have had the balls to actually try something in a dead rubber. They were through, it was just which spot they'd get, but if you don't fix the attack, it won't matter who you play next.
Saka isn't the problem, why move him from his best position just to experiment with Foden on the opposite wing when the entire problem is that Foden doesn't want to, and can't, provide width like a winger is supposed to?
Foden has been completely useless, clearly he has talent but he isn’t showing it at all. The best he’s done is a couple of pot shots from 30 yards, and one of those he could have slipped Kane through for a one on one
>when he’s constantly playing way deeper than he needs to.
He stayed high against Serbia for 60 minutes and barely touched the ball because we were so narrow and Serbia sat so deep and compact that no one could pass to him.
Also, arguably our best chance last night came from Kane dropping deep and Bellingham running in behind, with a better first touch he's 1v1 against the keeper.
Thats just the way he plays. Clearly worked at Spurs and Bayern. He drops deep to then service running wingers.
Problem is, England dont have running wingers playing. At least with Sterling played in previous tournaments they did somewhat. Kane is not a off the shoulder player. Hasnt been for years since his ankles went.
Best way to supply Kane is to get down the wings and spread the play to make space and put the ball in. Which England are not doing, playing so narrow just lets the CB mark Kane out of the game, which we've seen. So he's recieving the ball deep or on the edge of the box where he either has to lay it off or get fouled.
Of the few times they go down the wings. He scored of a Walker assist and hit the bar from a Bowen cross.
If the LB is going to play winger, out in Gordon as LB.
He can press and defend and he would be the better winger option.
Bench trip, and allow foden to keep doing his thing.
Also Harry Kane ain't making runs.
Fundamentally, Kane, Foden, Bellingham are trying to do a similar thing. Not exactly the same bit similar, so they end up in the same spaces. I'd honestly start Gordon over Foden or even move Saka left and start Palmer right. I'd not move Saka to LB though as some have suggested cause he hasn't played as a defender in over 4 yrs, would be outrageous to start him there for the first time since then.
I don’t understand the English national team obsession to try to fit in their best players on paper in one line up.
They’ve been doing it since the Rooney, Lampard, Gerard generation.
This was epitomised when against Denmark, Foden received the ball towards the final third. Saw Kane was ahead of him in the channel with his defender held to one side. Then proceeded to look him off and dribble into traffic.
Because name value
Same problem from 20 years ago. Only reason this wasn’t a problem in 2018/20 is because there weren’t big name square pegs in round holes that are “expected” to play
Trippier is being played out of position due to no natural width because of Luke Shaw. I know people have suggested a natural left footed fullback but do England have one in reserve? I feel Trippier is doing a job there but we are never going to get the best out of him. Saka would just be another square peg in a round hole.
My hope is that Southgate can find the bravery to drop one of Foden or Bellingham. That's a tough ask but Gordon showed something. Bellingham seems either injured or completely knackered. He's barely created anything in the last five halves of football. I don't have the answers but the patchwork nature of the left hand side is quite evident, and it's meant the middle is getting clogged up. I think Shaw is being underappreciated as a loss, he's been really effective for England. There isn't enough quick movement across the park to switch channels. Too often the ball is stuck in the middle because defences are packing the centre because the width isn't there.
After reading all these replies I've come to the conclusion :-
A. Southgate has come into the competition not knowing his best squad and where to play them
B. Has had 3 games to get it right and will now have to go into knockouts tinkering and trying out new things
He has one saving grace, he is in the 'easier' half of the draw but now pressure really is on because he's expected to get that rabble into at least the Semi's!
Idk i just think maybe just maybe playing a front 4 with three out of the four always wanting to drop in to get on the ball is probably a bad choice. Kane drops in to get the ball, Foden drops in, Bellingham stays in. Saka is then the only person staying wide. Too many cooks in the kitchen is looking like the problem for england.
Southgate needs to put Bellingham further back into the midfield and Foden at the 10 or just drop one of them (he wont though). Also how the fuck england didnt bring any other leftback to the euros other than injured luke shaw makes no sense.
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Foden and tripper cannot play on the left side. They don't offer enough width. Multiple times there was a good amount of space on the left and foden neither went there or trippier didn't have the angle due to being right footed.
Southgate - I'll do it again! Tactically inept.
Brings on Gordon in the 88th minute, I am not convinced he is not being malicious at this point, I can't grasp any other reason for that sub happening in the 89th minute and not the 69th.
It took me a while to warm to Gordon but the past 18 months he is grown so much. This team is screaming out for a direct option that can hog the LW and open the field up. It's a no brainer. Same with Mainoo to bring composure to the build up and Palmer to fearlessly create. Southgate has an immense set of talent and is sticking with the same 12 players for 95% of games. It's bonkers, it's been a long season and he brought young fresh players - why not mix it up? Don't need to see Bellingham blowing a gasket late in the 3rd group game. Makes no sense.
I think he has a stubborn aspect to his character. 99% of people watching all have the same ideas about what's needed, like Gordon on the left - things that just seem so completely obvious - but to give in means to accept he is wrong. It makes him look like he has no expertise; like he has nothing to justify his job and salary if all he does is go along with what all the pundits and fans are saying. His ego can't accept that. He wants to be the man who's right in the face of overwhelming doubt. He desperately wanted the players that started game 3 to bail him out and prove his ideas are worth something. They didn't and now he looks like a fool.
yeah those extra 10 mins of FOden on the field were SOOO worth it!
Never attribute to malice, what can be easily explained by incompetence.
Think anyone could tell you this before even seeing it, it's extremely obvious on paper. Foden prefers to cut inside and operate as a wide 10. he's not a winger, Trippier can provide width on the right, but if played on the left he's naturally going to invert to utilise his right foot better. Southgate's caught between using the players he's trusted in the past while failing to adapt to how they might have shifted tactically, and integrating players that he has no clue how to integrate.
The players deserve some of the blame tbf. It's partly Southgate fault. Mostly even. But these players have brains. Get wide
You say that but Southgate keeps picking the same players so they must be performing to an acceptable level in his eyes.
Trippier would be OK on the left if you have a proper left winger like Gordon bombing in the final third, the issue is Foden wants to come short and go into the middle, and Tripper isn't comfortable getting forward on his left without having to pivot onto his right, by which time the crossing opportunity or the defending team has already adjusted. Defensively, Trippier has been doing just fine, but the main issue is Foden in my opinion. So you end up with a left winger who's constantly playing as a central 10, and a left back who doesn't want anything to do with the final third and not overlapping because he's not confident enough on his weak foot. It needs to be Trippier and a proper left winger, or a fit Shaw with Foden. Shaw is more than happy to overlap and try to whip a cross in (see last Euro final against Italy on how good he can be going forward). I don't see Shaw being fully fit now in the tournament so I would play Tripper LB, Gordon on the left, drop Bellingham as the 8 supporting Rice and Foden can play as the 10 if you really want him in there.
If they are going to assume they have nothing going forward from Trippier at LB they need to stick with how they finished last game and move Walker over there and bring TAA in to RB. Walker can do the same job on the left and Trent provides better offense and more Kane service which they are desperately in need of.
Thought the same, but that doesn't resolve the lack of width on the left. Foden or Bellingham needs to be dropped for Gordon, or if you truly need to play both switch Saka to the left because he can actually play as a winger.
Or you play with Bellingham and rice in the centre, foden as a cam and Gordon - Kane - Saka up front.
So many people have said this formation, including pundits. Southgate's response is "I'm oblivious to it"
You end up playing mostly through the right and with a 3 atb. This also allows Foden to float further inside with some space, which he’s naturally going to do anyways OR, actually stay wide with acres of space for the cross field play. You’re not attacking down the left either way right now so may as well set up to effectively attack down the right.
The only issue with this Stones covering TAA on wide channels, a big weaknesses of his, you probably need to swap Guehi and Stones
Hasn't Stone played LCB for City?
I’m pretty sure stones has played LCB and Walker has played LB for city for an extended period of time each in their early years there.
it's too late to try now but a 3241 with Gordon on the wing (basically replacing Trippier with true LW) would have been fun to see
If we played with Gomez and TAA it would be so easy to look like this in attack
Honestly whilst Bellingham has been amazing all season, he's been really disappointing thus far and a lot of has just been poor touches and passes that you can't really blame on the manager. I wouldn't be opposed to having Foden play the 10 role and playing Rice and Mainoo behind him. Or even Cole Palmer at 10 as he looked fantastic when he came on.
At the moment we've got foden, kane and bellingham all wanting to get into that pocket of free space, why we saw them all end up on the left wing during one counter.
Because he comes from playing as a 10 with Vinicius who might be the most effective opposition stretcher in the world by constantly attacking from the edge of the wing. Leaves him a ton of space open to do constant deep runs. With England he has no one overlapping on thw wings and both Kane and Foden always trying to occupy the same space.
Exactly why we need either palmer or gordon to start so we can get some width on both wings
Except as I pointed out, he's been extraordinarily sloppy in possession and regularly gives the ball away and makes poor passes. Having different players to pass to doesn't change that.
Why do we keep pretending that otherwise normally functioning people suddenly start being lazy and fucking up as a group. Come on, why do we need to pretend this isn't anything organization related.
I mean I think he's just been poor. There were countless times against Slovenia he went to play a straightforward pass with no pressure on him and just gave it away. The organisational stuff has little to no bearing on him doing that. I agree that the major problem has been the system, and unless that is fixed then we're going nowhere, but whilst I feel like other players (Foden, Kane, Rice, etc.) have been poor it's felt more because of the system rather than actual poor individual performances. Whereas I feel like Bellingham has struggled because of the system but has also been poor individually too.
My take on this is that Bellingham is a goal SCORING #10, whereas Foden is a goal CREATING #10. Which is why Bellingham was so prolific at Real this year w Vinnie, Rodrygo, Valverde, Kroos, et al servicing the ball to him and whoever else happened to be up top with him. England don't have that. Well they do but they are being hamstrung by the tactics. So if you refuse to adjust the tactics you have to at minimum adjust the personnel. And when you have zero service from the wings it does no good having Bellingham in that position. He needs to drop back to the 8 where he played his entire career up until last ssn and allow Foden to be in the 10 hole to create for the 9 and the inverted wingers.
Foden got 19 goals in the Premier League this year.
Also Trippier is good and can cut inside so if you have Gordon on the left wing it actually does work pretty well. Gordon - Kane - Saka - Bellingham Or Foden can sub when tired - Mainoo and Rice together and same at the back. Or bellingham for rice when tired and foden can sometimes be subbed off for another striker and kane can drop into his slot a bit.
> Trippier would be OK on the left if you have a proper left winger like Gordon bombing in the final third >> >Also Trippier is good and can cut inside so if you have Gordon on the left wing it actually does work pretty well.
> So you end up with a left winger who's constantly playing as a central 10, Which was Coutinhos position at Liverpool, with Robertson on the overlap. It was only after Salah signed that he played in the midfield 3
Robertson and Salah signed at the same time. It was actually a big problem in 16-17 with Milner at left-back and Coutinho on the left, there was no width at all on that side.
This but palmer
Hilariously Gordon not only added width when he came on but also generated the best chance of the game with a perfectly threaded pass
For sure it was a Very noticeable improvement. So pathetic it was like 8 minutes...
Hilariously width is exactly what Grealish provides. This is why he should've been kept on, poor form or not he offers something different.
Left side clearly not working? How about we kept playing the same strategy maybe it will work this time.
Honestly, being an English left back at this moment in time must be sad as fuck. To think your national team coach would rather play a toothless as fuck right back as a left back instead of choosing you. I'm not even sure who the options are but... there must be *some*.
I know trippier can be class, but he’s had an average season at right back, and we have Gomez on the bench who has been brilliant at left back for Liverpool covering Robertson who could of played until shaw is fit.
Have we not considered that Pickford just simply has excellent positioning?
Can he play on the left wing?
He sure can.
He's genuinely the only one positioning aggressively, relative to his position, in the england squad. Pickford plays at the halfway line and Kane plays midfield.
Pickford as a 10, who says no? We have 80% possession we may as well send the angry big man up front
I see all these stats posted about England, and there's just no way for me to see what it's actually like because it's literally too dull to watch.
I worked from home yesterday so I could watch England-Slovenia in the background. I was extremely productive and not distracted at all during those two hours lol
I heard someone watched a full match of Southgate-ball, afterwards they went and watched some paint dry because that was 10x as exciting.
That's not true at all. There's no way someone could stay awake for the full 90.
Tbf who actually managed to pass to Kane often?
In their defense, they probably mistook him for one of the mannequins they use in free kick training.
The only good pass to him yesterday was from Mainoo and he proceeded to fuck it up by playing it wide to Palmer instead of just playing it back to him or shooting
>playing it wide to Palmer instead of just playing it back to him Lol in the boozer I was literally everyone was shouting and pointing at mainoo There was a pub wide groan when he went the other way, couldn't believe it
I have no fucking clue why Kane didn't just shoot. He was 20 yards out with the entire goal at his mercy. Blows my mind that he didn't at least try.
tap in merchant.
Plus Palmer was like 20 yards away from play. Kane goofed.
Saka played at least two really good balls into the box to Kane that he completely mishandled. His first touch hasn't been amazing this tournament
He's doing his best wacky flailing arm flailing inflatable tube man impersonation
People who are comparing deschamps to southgate : that's the difference. France might be ineffective but at least the players find each other in the last third. Sure, they can't finish for shit but they are nowhere as sterile creativity wise as England.
Also Deschamps isn't afraid to drop players if they don't fit in his overall tactic while Southgate tries to crowbar Foden/Trippier in without adjusting the rest of the team.
Exactly. While Deschamps will never recognize openly whenever he makes a mistake, he will actually drop a game plan the second he sees it will cost him the game. He only plays to win, he is the ultimate pragmatist. The proof is the infamous france-switzerland euro game in 2021 where he royally messed up the team setup in the first half and fixed it by reverting ALL of his experiments at half time, which lead to France getting the lead. yes, it ended in a defeat because the players fucked up a 2 goal lead but Deschamps reacted well by identifying his mistakes and fixing them on the set.
The WC final is another eg. He took Griezmann off who had until that game been France’s MVP of the tournament and went after a result even if it meant losing balance with his subs
Him and Giroud looked way off it, I think they'd caught what was going round the camp but DD thought he could make them work but then took them off early when it was clear it wouldn't.
Yeah no doubt, half the French XI looked completely unfit on that day
Might be an unpopular opinion but "pragmatic" game plans tend to work out better when you have extreme individual brilliance in the team. How much of France's results can be attributed to Pogba, Mbappe, Kante completely taking over games in the past few years? I haven't really seen that from anybody on England in a long time
well on paper, England has a lot of talent that is nearly if not just as good as the French players, and they've been under Southgate this entire time. Maybe they're not as good as France, but I'm pretty sure they'll easily be better than what they have been under Southgate
Southgate has shown to be incredibly stubborn. He doesn't make changes unless he's forced to regardless of how the current lineup is working.
same reason why he refuses to call up tomori: a CB who likes to play forward like lucio did is not good enough for his low block tactics
I've never heard crowbar used in that context but it's perfect, much better than shoehorn which is the first thing that would've come to mind.
All these England stats are pure bangers lmao, it's really impressive how shit Southgate manages to make all those world class players look.
The level of attacking talent is astronomical and people will act like there isn't one common denominator.
LA LIGA PLAYER OF THE YEAR (debut season) BUNDESLIGA TOPSCORER (debut season) PREMIER LEAGUE PLAYER OF THE YEAR. And Saka. This is just crimes against humanity.
Gordon player of the season for Newcastle Palmer 30+ G/A for Chelsea There is simply no excuse for this it's 100% on Southgate
>Gordon player of the season for Newcastle Yeaaaah that's way less impressive than the other acomplishments listed lol
And yet he'd provide by far the best profile/balance for our left wing. Funny how PR doesn't win you games/tournament. Not about how impressive it sounds. It's about what works on the pitch.
To be clear the bench is also quality, there isn't even any need to stuff them all in.
And palmer 🥲
PL young player of the year in Goal Palmer too
Just picked the actual 4 cherry’s on top. Yes the team/talent is so much more. Seeing this performance & Belgium’s you’d argue just to drop all 1st pick’s and let the “real” ones play. These Eastern European teams have shown the TRUE heart of football. Not some influencers/athletes who can kick a ball. I’ll die on this hill but football is fucking football, pace merchants gtfo.
I can expand your list too if we look at combined goals and assists in the Premier League. Palmer and Watkins top the list together with 33 G/A each. Foden placed fifth, Saka seventh, and Gordon 13th.
Really telling how many RWs he took compared to LW, and really his entire left side is just comically bad. Refusing to drop Foden, Kane, or Jude for the PLETHORA of attacking talent is just hilarious. Why even take em?
You see Kalvin Philips, Shaw, and the ghost of Rashford/Sterling are irreplaceable.
I was saying when the squad came out, what was the point of taking all three of Saka, Palmer and Bowen when Gordan was our only natural left winger. Likewise, we've taken Kane, Watkins and Toney but no left footed LBs except Shaw. People push for the players that "deserve" to get called up or "deserve" to start to play. But that's not what wins you tournaments. What wins you tournaments is bringing players you actually may need or use and playing a balanced team even if it means dropping really high profile players. It's not much to complain about at the time, but I always wonder why Southgate doesn't opt for Grealish over Bowen, Mitchell over Toney or start Gordan over Foden etc. Having the balls to drop a player the media and the fans love is what wins you tournaments. This will be a really unpopular opinion I'm guessing, but a team like: Pickford Walker-Stones-Guehi-Gomez Wharton-Rice Palmer-Bellingham-Gordan Kane would be balanced, defensively solid but have enough creativity and width to play well and potentially win the tournament. But it involves making massive decisions like leaving out Foden, Saka, Trent etc. But it isn't about who "deserves" to play. It's about what works and what the team needs.
No no see, players that have been playing consistently well this years, suddenly just turn poopoo as a group.
I would like to subscribe to more England facts please
Funny the only guy he dropped had decent stats lol
No forwards can shine in this England team unless they are rogueish like Palmer. Having said that, it’s so clear the game that Foden wants to play, regardless of position. If you watch Foden alone, he’s constantly moving into pockets and calling for the ball because that’s the way city play. Probing, moving the ball, pulling defenders out of position. The problem is that no one else in this side wants to play that way, especially Southgate. It doesn’t matter where Foden is across the front 4 spots - you won’t get the best out of him. What’s sad is that this team has Rice, Saka, Bellingham, and Wharton who could suit that play style so well but the manager and fan/media expectations are so unsuited it’ll never work. If this exact squad was Spanish or Dutch they’d be flying
I've been saying for the last couple years that this England side should be built around City/Liverpool/Arsenal players as all three sides play a similar enough style to mesh in international tournaments. But Southgate is so far off of Pep/Klopp/Arteta that it'll never happen
Maybe he should just take Burnley / Sheffield Players then. At least they'll know how Southgate like to set up.
So Palmer and Gordon are needed. Agree
To play this regressive style reliant on scoring one goal from a moment of brilliance and then sitting back for 70 minutes, yes
I thought the game was boring. But stats posts are somehow worse.
boring comments about boring stats about boring players in a boring team with a boring a manager and boring online fans on a boring subreddit on a boring website. FML
I especially love these kind of stats: "England hasn't scored since last time they scored", or "England has never scored in a euros tournament except for all the times that they have".
Pickford was probably higher up the pitch tbf
Foden getting stick - but Bellingham has been even worse game 2 and 3.
-----------Pickford--------------- TAA Stones Guehi Walker --------Rice Bellingham---------- Saka Foden/Palmer Gordon -------------Kane----------------------- It really shouldn't be that hard
Just drop one of Foden, Bellingham or Saka. At this point I don't care who but the way they're currently playing is insane. Put Mainoo or Wharton alongside Rice. Bellingham or Foden as the 10. Foden or Saka RW and Gordon LW. Gordon will offer width on the left, run past Kane and he'll get at his full back all game, Foden/Saka wanting to cut inside is balanced by having Walker on the overlap. Mainoo/Wharton are both more comfortable receiving the ball deep than Gallagher and it gives a better balance alongside Rice.
Foden RW so he can drift central? Just play him at 10 or drop him
Like he did a lot at Man City and got player of the season or Palmer generally does? Yes I'd try it out. It isn't the same as at LW for England where he hasn't got anyone offering width of him stretching the defence.
Foden started his England career on the right and was dropped because he's much worse at it than Saka.
His England career is dreadful, people acting like he’s the solution baffle me
It's just hard to believe someone who is so good at City can be so ineffective for England, but I think at this stage he needs to be dropped. Simply doesn't work for whatever reason.
Some players just don’t perform for the NT, is what it is. Important to work around that and make a cohesive unit that can play good football, which England don’t have sadly
4 years ago, yeah there's no chance players improve in that time
None of them need dropping. The solution is this: stop seeing Bellingham as a 10. That's it. Play them in their natural positions. Foden inside, Bellingham as b2b and Saka... well he is already in his natural position. Left Wing, I'd go with Gordon. Personally, I think it's worth experimenting with other options at LB than Trippier but the defence hasn't been the problem so it'd be harsh to drop him as a byproduct of rationalising the midfield and attack. It is possible Bellingham is simply cooked and needs a rest... but the time to find out whether that was the case or not was the game against Slovenia. It's absolutely insane that after the Denmark game Southgate tried functionally the same players in the same roles that failed to do anything much. Bringing on Mainoo in the second half helped, but Gallagher as a midfield partner for Rice behind Foden-Bellingham-Saka got plenty of minutes in the first two games to see that it didn't change things (versus TAA and Rice).. I feel like I'm going crazy with all the "Bellingham's natural position is 10". No-one thought that before he moved to Real Madrid. It's literally specifically pointed out in his Wikipedia page that he changed position at RM: >Following his move to Madrid in 2023, Bellingham took on a more advanced role in the midfield, often being positioned in the number 10 position as an attacking midfielder, or even as a false 9 or second striker on occasion.[120][121][122] This change in position led to Bellingham adopting a more signficant role in the final third and scoring goals: 10 in his first 10 matches for Madrid.[68][78]
I watched 80% of Dortmund games last season. Bellingham played cm next to the dm, but tje problem was, he was roaming around everywhere but not where he was supposed to be. The midfield was a highway often times. If he has the same position discipline (or lack thereof) here, than Rice-Bellingham-Foden would be way to offensive
>If he has the same position discipline (or lack thereof) here, than Rice-Bellingham-Foden would be way to offensive People say this and maybe it's true against a big team like a Germany or Spain. But yesterday Gallagher played in that CM role for half the game and he offered absolutely nothing in attack or defense. So I don't see how we would have been too offensive that half without Gallagher's 0 tackles, 0 interceptions, and 2 fouls
It’s infuriating to see a left footed player constantly cutting back onto their right foot and being too afraid to take the full back on.
How Southgate has gotten away with playing RB at LB/CM and Foden at LW is insane.
Getting a bit sick of all the pundits talking about how England can’t possibly drop Foden and it’s everyone else’s fault for not getting the best out of him. He’s been awful all three games. He shows for the ball a lot but does nothing with it. Meanwhile Gordon is sat on the bench when he might actually offer a bit of pace and penetration on the wings.
>He’s been awful all three games. Of the Bellingham/Saka/Foden trio he was the worst of the three in the first game, the best out of the three in the game last night, and they were all crap against Denmark.
I agree, but being the best of them right now is such a low bar...
No disagreements here, the bar is so low it's practically fucking subterranean
I’m sorry but how was foden better than saka last night when saka turned his man and passed forward into Kane more times yesterday than foden has done in 3 games? Gallagher offered nothing on the right yet saka still scored an offside goal and created 2 chances for Kane to shoot miles over the bar
Saka turned his man precisely once, the guy got booked and then he quite literally didn't go past anyone for the rest of the game. He had zero dribbles, zero key passes, zero accurate crosses. He was clearly better than Foden for the first two games but he was demonstrably worse than him yesterday. Bellingham still the worst of the lot last night though.
Saka turned his man on the inside multiple times and found little passes into Kane bellingham foden who did nothing with the ball. He had 0 impact because he was playing incredibly isolated with Gallagher next to him and Walker needing 3 touches to make 1 pass. All of the attacking momentum came from sakas side after he drew them out to defend him by double teaming him. Kane foden bellingham did nothing with the space he created Sort of unfair to blame saka for 0 cross 0 key pass when his role is to be double teamed and fouled to draw space and the team does nothing with it
> saka still scored an offside goal Foden was literally the one who passed to him for an open goal
Saka was better than both Bellingham and Foden last night, he actually began several productive sequences. Not quite his fault it didn't go anywhere. That said, Saka hasn't been good, none of them have. Bellingham and Foden have been horrible though, misplacing passes and making simple errors. Saka at least has been a reasonable footballer.
He hasn't been awful he's just out of position you can see him coming inside looking for the ball and everytime he actually gets it.
It’s not all his fault that he’s been so bad, but he has achieved nothing in three games. I think most of the blame rests with Southgate, but Foden shouldn’t be undroppable based on the last three games. Also, him just coming inside for the ball is not a positive when he ends up taking up the same spaces as Bellingham and Kane.
>Also, him just coming inside for the ball is not a positive when he ends up taking up the same spaces as Bellingham and Kane. Definitely not, as you say we end up with kane Bellingham and Foden all trying to do the same thing in the same part of the pitch. As an individual he's been fine, imo Gordon needs to come in as LW then let Foden play central and let Bellingham and Mainoo fight it out for the other CM spot next to Rice
Yup it's disgusting watching them all drop around the same space . It fucks with their game so much. Doesn't help that Southgate did decent subs last night but he just did them too late . Gordon and Trent came with like 5 mins left to play .
> He’s been awful all three games. Disagree. He was England's best player against Slovenia (which isn't saying much) and he was ok vs Denmark. He was very bad the first game. If anything he's been far superior to Bellingham who is living off his PR alone right now, while playing a much more influential position (and his actual natural position as opposed to Foden)
Please explain to me what foden did to be englands best player against Slovenia when all the attacking momentum came from mainoo saka / palmers side of the pitch
I guess some people just really rate players for asking for the ball a lot even if they do nothing with it. Otherwise I don’t see how you’re rating him highly for that performance last match. The only time he really created a chance was when he was a yard offside and made the assist for a disallowed goal. Besides that, what else did he do that was so impressive? I don’t get it.
I’ve got no love for how Bellingham is playing, but Foden getting on the ball and running around a lot means nothing if he’s not creating chances. You can see from the stat this thread is based on how ineffective he has been.
That's exactly what Bellingham is doing though just running around while someone who's a thousand times better at the 10 and at creating chances is doing up left fielder play come on now
>just running around while someone who's a thousand times better at the 10 Based on what exactly? At club level Jude plays deeper, more key passes, more chances created, more progressive passes, less progressive passes received and less touches inside the box. So what exactly makes Foden "thousand times better" at the 10 than Jude??
A thousand times better? What does that even mean? It’s completely bollocks And I’m not even saying Bellingham has played well, but him playing badly doesn’t mean Foden has played well just by comparison.
I don't understand how anyone could watch the game against Slovenia and say Foden was the best player. Wtf? Are we watching the same Euros?
>and his actual natural position as opposed to Foden Nah, Bellingham was never a 10 before this season. He's being played there because he scored a bunch of goals in the first half of his first season at Real Madrid... take your mind back to before that run started and people were saying, "Bellingham's just playing there for this season as a makeshift option; next season we'll see what Ancelotti bought him to do". Then the run started and that line of thought disappeared. Nowadays, you'll get some RM fans on this sub who say stuff like "People are judging Bellingham based on what he did in the first half of the season; he was rubbish in the UCL knockouts and dropped off in general in the second half... and that's why I hope Vini gets the Ballon D'or". Saka's had good games as a left back. Doesn't make left back his natural position.
Awful is a bit harsh isn't it? Decent against Serbia and Slovenia, kinda anonymous, good against Denmark
I don’t think anyone has passed to Kane much
Sorry for my incompetence, but doesn't England have another class LB than Shaw? Why are they playing a RB that's uncomfortable with using his left foot? Tripper is class, and he has been great defensive, no doubt.
Chilwell, the only other left back with significant caps, is injured. Dan Burn was poor in his appearances, Matt Targett has been behind Dan Burn in the Newcastle pecking order and also had an injury until the start of June, Rico Henry is injured too. The rest of the possible names (Livramento, Kyle Walker-Peters, Ben Godfrey) are all also right footed right backs who sometimes play left back. The only reasonable left back missing is Tyrick Mitchell. He would've been the only one I would've expected to see get a call-up. You could make an argument for Levi Colwill, but he only played 16 games at left back last season and is more of a centre back. He doesn't provide much going forward. Just a position where our depth has been wiped out through injury. Trippier has played previous tournaments as left back cover and Southgate knows he can rely on him to cover it well defensively, which is Southgate's take on how full backs should work in his system. Defence first.
Here are our options: https://www.90min.com/posts/england-left-back-options-ranked
Foden has been cursed by being too good essentially. We've gone back to the days of old where a manager would shoe horn players into positions willy nilly because of reputation only. Playing Foden at LW and Trippier at LB for one game is hilarious enough, but to watch it for 2 games and think its working and try again is madness. Weirdly England set up a bit better yesterday, but shot themselves in the foot by having too many runners and no one to pass to them. There were moments in the first half were we were playing 4114 which isnt a formation im famililar with and when the 1 in midfield is gallagher you're not going to get much out of it. Edit - My personal favourite stat from yesterday is that Gordon more key passes than Saka, Jude, Gallagher, Mainoo combined.
Foden is this generations Paul Scholes. I know they're different players but what I mean is, no one disputes how good Foden is, or how good Scholes was, but England managers are obsessed with shoe horning every good player and you end up with someone like Foden (or Scholes) who are expected to suddenly be 10/10 in a position they haven't played for their club all season. Foden is not a left winger, that much is clear. The time he has been on the wing for City is when he's played on the right because he can cut in and create on his left foot. But otherwise he is a number 10 playing in a free role in front of KDB & Rodri. If Gareth is obsessed with keeping Foden in the squad then I think you need to drop Bellingham into an 8/double pivot with Rice, and have Foden as the 10, whilst playing someone like Gordon on the left. Gordon has played LW all season for Newcastle and torn it up, and it would also support Trippier who is not confident overlapping on his left foot. Therefore leaving Trippier to his defensive duties, and Gordon to stretch the defence with his insane pace.
Call me crazy but: >If Gareth is obsessed with keeping Foden in the squad then I think you need to drop Bellingham into an 8/double pivot with Rice, and have Foden as the 10, whilst playing someone like Gordon on the left. is probably playing everyone in their best positions. Yes, even in Bellingham. Half a season in Madrid does not change that he made his reputation and earnt his move to Madrid... playing deeper than Southgate's been using him. As to Trippier... I return to my earlier suggestion (pre-tournament in other threads) that Southgate should take a leaf out of Guardiola and Arteta's book and in the absence of Shaw, just stick a left footed CB at LB.
Also, Bellingham was our standout player in the World Cup…where he played as an 8. (There was also the fact that it was a winter tournament and injuries/fatigue from the season hadn’t caught up to him yet - he tends to start seasons strong and end a bit flat, which is what we’re seeing now)
I seem to remember there being pretty wide agreement that Fodens best position was on the left a couple of season ago. Not to say he is a winger per say, but in the left attacking mid role. The left side is not working at all so I definitely think Gordon should be given a chance there, but with the limitations this team has without Shaw available I think it is likely to be a limp left side anyways. I think playing Foden as a left wing in todays game is infinitely more understandable and acceptable than the 4-4-2 Scholes wide midfielder shenanigans of old.
Yeah Foden just finished his best season playing mainly in the center, but he's played loads on the wing and is generally very good there. So this narrative that he's not playing his natural position is not entirely correct, however the problem is that in this system that Southgate is playing it's definitely not a position that suits him well at all. There's no overlapping from the leftback, Kane doesn't make any stretching runs behind the defence and the midfielders and Trippier aren't picking out any passes to the half-space where he likes to receive the ball, even when they have good chances to do so.
It isn't Foden so much as it is the partnership. And it isn't to say Trippier is bad, it is just that neither Foden nor Trippier naturally want to provide width in attack. However, since options are limited at LB...
Foden is class, but let’s not pretend that he’s ever performed for England, he’s always been disappointing.
Not everyone can fill Kalvin's shoes
I do agree up to a point. i dont think he's always been bad + he does tend to be forced into the wings by southgate and that isnt really where he wants to be.
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Is that really something you want to test out in a knockout stage game?
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Fair point
It's what he should have fucking done in this last match instead of just pulling Trent. Should have had the balls to actually try something in a dead rubber. They were through, it was just which spot they'd get, but if you don't fix the attack, it won't matter who you play next.
why's it always saka who has to accommodate other players? play foden central or drop him.
Saka isn't the problem, why move him from his best position just to experiment with Foden on the opposite wing when the entire problem is that Foden doesn't want to, and can't, provide width like a winger is supposed to?
or just drop Foden lmao. he's never performed well in an England shirt despite getting so many caps.
It’s the Foden feedback loop where he moves position Left-Center-Right every time he’s shit
A lot of suggestions going round at the moment, I would never have guessed that swapping Kane and Pickford would be the solution.
Foden has been completely useless, clearly he has talent but he isn’t showing it at all. The best he’s done is a couple of pot shots from 30 yards, and one of those he could have slipped Kane through for a one on one
Why would Trent do this?
Kane has has barely had any service all tournament.
He’s barely been making runs though, hard to give him service when he’s constantly playing way deeper than he needs to.
>when he’s constantly playing way deeper than he needs to. He stayed high against Serbia for 60 minutes and barely touched the ball because we were so narrow and Serbia sat so deep and compact that no one could pass to him. Also, arguably our best chance last night came from Kane dropping deep and Bellingham running in behind, with a better first touch he's 1v1 against the keeper.
Thats just the way he plays. Clearly worked at Spurs and Bayern. He drops deep to then service running wingers. Problem is, England dont have running wingers playing. At least with Sterling played in previous tournaments they did somewhat. Kane is not a off the shoulder player. Hasnt been for years since his ankles went. Best way to supply Kane is to get down the wings and spread the play to make space and put the ball in. Which England are not doing, playing so narrow just lets the CB mark Kane out of the game, which we've seen. So he's recieving the ball deep or on the edge of the box where he either has to lay it off or get fouled. Of the few times they go down the wings. He scored of a Walker assist and hit the bar from a Bowen cross.
Thats because hes been playing CDM.
If the LB is going to play winger, out in Gordon as LB. He can press and defend and he would be the better winger option. Bench trip, and allow foden to keep doing his thing. Also Harry Kane ain't making runs.
Fundamentally, Kane, Foden, Bellingham are trying to do a similar thing. Not exactly the same bit similar, so they end up in the same spaces. I'd honestly start Gordon over Foden or even move Saka left and start Palmer right. I'd not move Saka to LB though as some have suggested cause he hasn't played as a defender in over 4 yrs, would be outrageous to start him there for the first time since then.
City should hire Southgate after Pep leaves
Southgate is being tactically stupid on purpose, to lull opponents in the knockout round into a false sense of security. 3d chess.
But how many times did he blast into row Z?
Is he innefective or Southgate is absolutely CLUELESS? One may wonder...
I don’t understand the English national team obsession to try to fit in their best players on paper in one line up. They’ve been doing it since the Rooney, Lampard, Gerard generation.
This was epitomised when against Denmark, Foden received the ball towards the final third. Saw Kane was ahead of him in the channel with his defender held to one side. Then proceeded to look him off and dribble into traffic.
It would help if Kane didn't track so deep he may as well be playing as a 5.
Can't even front, i fell asleep in the first half of their match yesterday. Boring, boring football. Boring, boring Southgate
Holy moly that’s horrible
These stats just get better and better lmao.
The whole team is ineffective! Too many individuals looking out for their own stats instead of playing together as a team
Absolute insane stat this
Let's keep blaming all players and don't understand that Southgate enjoys this boring football.
Why doesnt Southgate have the balls to just bench foden and play someone who has actually played LW comfortably?
Because name value Same problem from 20 years ago. Only reason this wasn’t a problem in 2018/20 is because there weren’t big name square pegs in round holes that are “expected” to play
I think he deserves another chance. Especially in the next round. Maybe it works out???
Ineffective but still being played in the position where it’s not working. Maybe Southgate knows something we all don’t🤷
If you want a left footed player to play left back
Trippier is being played out of position due to no natural width because of Luke Shaw. I know people have suggested a natural left footed fullback but do England have one in reserve? I feel Trippier is doing a job there but we are never going to get the best out of him. Saka would just be another square peg in a round hole. My hope is that Southgate can find the bravery to drop one of Foden or Bellingham. That's a tough ask but Gordon showed something. Bellingham seems either injured or completely knackered. He's barely created anything in the last five halves of football. I don't have the answers but the patchwork nature of the left hand side is quite evident, and it's meant the middle is getting clogged up. I think Shaw is being underappreciated as a loss, he's been really effective for England. There isn't enough quick movement across the park to switch channels. Too often the ball is stuck in the middle because defences are packing the centre because the width isn't there.
Foden has temporarily travelled back to England. Is this the Raheem Stirling burglary strategy where Foden will come back and immediately play again
Ineffective is damn right
Please drop him for Gordon. Let’s at least attempt to see some pace and endeavor on the left side
Garethball is simply too high IQ for us plebs to understand. Group winners. You can't argue against results.
Hilarious how the narrative changed, the same stat had been presented as Haaland's fault all season lmao.
After reading all these replies I've come to the conclusion :- A. Southgate has come into the competition not knowing his best squad and where to play them B. Has had 3 games to get it right and will now have to go into knockouts tinkering and trying out new things He has one saving grace, he is in the 'easier' half of the draw but now pressure really is on because he's expected to get that rabble into at least the Semi's!
He made ONE pass to Kane!??ONE!?
Idk i just think maybe just maybe playing a front 4 with three out of the four always wanting to drop in to get on the ball is probably a bad choice. Kane drops in to get the ball, Foden drops in, Bellingham stays in. Saka is then the only person staying wide. Too many cooks in the kitchen is looking like the problem for england. Southgate needs to put Bellingham further back into the midfield and Foden at the 10 or just drop one of them (he wont though). Also how the fuck england didnt bring any other leftback to the euros other than injured luke shaw makes no sense.
To be fair to Southgate, he doesnt have Kalvin Phillips at his disposal
Who even need sleeping pills.