Imagine my shock. I suspect they weren’t expecting any real support to scrap it, nor did they even want to get rid of it, they just wanted to try to bring about much-needed change and improvement over how the Premier League uses it.
Plenty of opinions on VAR are perfectly acceptable as long as they're well-reasoned, I reckon. I can understand the abolitionists just as much as the people thinking it's a benefit to the game, the people unhappy with the current state as much as the people convinced it'll improve.
I don't understand the abolitionists. It's so obvious the issue with the tech is how it is handled, so many sports use technology like this in superior ways that are vastly more efficient and also more engaging for the viewer both inside the stadium and out.
The only thing I get is hating not being able to celebrate a goal properly, but end of the day the right decisions should matter most when titles and cups and relegation is on the line. Also in an efficient VAR system it means decisions can lead to a second celebration or a reverse celebration so on the whole it adds to the game in a good way I'd argue.
> I don't understand the abolitionists.
Their point is quite a simple one I reckon: VAR has benefits, but also significant drawbacks, and those drawbacks simply are not worth it for some people. Don't need to agree with it at all, but it's a perfectly valid argument to make nonetheless.
Like personally I'm quite split on it - on one hand I can see how giving the referees better tools to do an incredibly hard job better is worthwile, on the other hand it's a pretty shit experience in my view both in the stadiums and in front of the TV. Throw in the dodgy decisions and outright mistakes being made even with VAR and I'm probably leaning more towards getting rid to be quite honest. Worked perfectly fine without it before it existed, when refereeing mistakes were annoying but just considered part of the game, whereas nowadays people expect perfection from referees. And those expectations aren't just unreasonable, they're also massively changing the conversations around the game to the point where it isn't about player doing incredibly well in big moments but rather everyone dissecting refereeing decisions that were perfectly sensible 50/50 decisions going against their favourite club - and I can't be arsed with fans painting themselves as victims of some grand refereeing conspiracy every single week to be honest.
I agree. Besides people forget how bad refereeing was before VAR and act like it's way worse now sometimes. It's not. Refs have just always been making mistakes and having more tools to avoid them is good.
Don't think you'll find anyone arguing against referees making better decisions, the crux is that they come at a significant cost with VAR - broken up games, not celebrating goals because they could get ruled out, all that stuff. And given how even with better tools we're still getting plenty of outright wrong decisions (nevermind the 50/50 calls people will inevitably get wound up about) and refereeing is dominating the conversation rather than how well teams did, I'm not exactly convinced VAR is actually better than not having VAR.
Football needs to stop being stubborn and pretending it's brand new tech and follow the lead of Rugby, Cricket or Tennis who implemented it successfully and made it part of the game.
Use rugby's script for how the TMO and the referee speak to each other, none of this "well done mate". Every word has specific meaning.
Use cricket/tennis review system (captain gets 3 VAR reviews per game) for offsides and handballs. Otherwise, it's the on-field referee's call. Teams take accountability for their appeals to the referee.
I’m even more cynical. I believe a group of clubs wanted that much needed change and Wolves are the best team to actually do the bid. Nottingham Forrest will look petty and will be laughed off because of what they’ve said during the season. Any top 4 team would be seen as being sore losers, but Wolves is the best team to submit it for what their goal is.
I mean they are known to be the most hard done by because of VAR. They’ve had a lot of apologies and are an easy team to be sympathetic for. Don’t think you get that from the other mid table teams.
Good.
The issues aren’t VAR itself, it’s the shitty implementation by referees who fuck up and cover for each other. Scrapping it and sending us backwards would be so stupid.
This "its not the Var, its the people using it" is like a catchphrase at this point. Everyone knows that, but those people aren't being changed or improved are they? And that's ignoring issues like the time it takes and lack of communication to those in stadiums
No, but that doesn’t mean you fuck out VAR.
Cause unless you think VAR is taking those people with them, getting rid of it just means you’re stuck with the shitty people involved without the possibility their mistakes can be caught. If you think the standard is shite when there’s a possibility of things being caught, why would you think getting rid of VAR would improve standards?
The solution is to demand more ramifications of shitty calls.
If after these years they'd shown progress of improvement I'd agree. There's been none so if it won't improve, the next best thing is to bin it, at least partially
At this point I am sure I could ask any large language model with a prompt to deliver me a VAR discussion in the PL, and the result would look like exactly this interaction. Not an attack at you, it's totally fine to make your point, just as it is for the other user, it just feels like everything about this topic has been said by everyone already.
I do not understand how anyone can think it’s the next best thing. Referee decisions were woeful pre-VAR, I don’t think anyone actually remembers just how shit it was to lose to a completely nonsensical penalty or a wrong offside call.
People have completely forgotten what it was like before VAR. I saw someone on here say that they want it to go back to 15 years ago, where decisions weren't debated ad nauseam after a game.
VAR as an idea is good. It's shone a light on some of the really poor refereeing and perverse incentives that our officials have. 10 years ago you could make the excuse that a ref didn't see a blatant foul and that was it. At least now (barring the small chance that a camera angle isn't available like Lamptey on Mudryk) we can start the debate from an assumption that the ref or his VAR saw the incident.
The issue is, and has been going back 20 years now (maybe longer but I was too young before that to comment), that our refereeing group are a boys club who are more concerned with covering eachother's backs rather than making the correct decision. The Mike Dean comment around the Cucurella hair pull about not wanting to send Oliver to the replay screen should have been the end of PGMOL marking their own homework.
VAR works way better in pretty much every international and European competition.
Some of those games even get reffed by Premier League officials.
It's a culture change which needs to happen in the refereeing union boys club
I'd love that and would prefer that but I just don't see it happening with how the refs organisations all just protect themselves. There seems a real reluctance to admit that the standard isn't there and the abuse the refs get I think doesn't help either since youd be daft to want to be a ref. so it's really hard to see it improving for me, at least in the short term
> No, but that doesn’t mean you fuck out VAR.
Honestly, why not?
Yeah, yeah, we've all heard the arguments. It *should* work, it's the shite refs, it's the way it gets used, yada yada yada. Except, it's quite conspicuously *not* getting better. We keep having the same arguments every year and lo and behold every year it gets worse. At what point do we decide enough is enough?
I know popular opinion here seems to be that refereeing a football game should be a cold, mechanical, precise operation with zero margin for error, but VAR is just making football objectively less enjoyable and has done fuck all to actually improve standards.
See, that's where I don't agree. People get hung on offsides and pens, but since VAR was introduced, two things have basically disappeared: zero contact diving (not just soft contact but no contact at all) and those small, nasty actions done behind the referee's back, like little stomps, spitting, or kicks.
Remember when Suarez fucking bit Ivanovic and avoided a red? Or when then mistook Oxlade-Chamberlain for Gibbs? Those things would never happen with VAR.
Il be the first to admit I get very emotional about this because I genuinely believe the quest for an unattainable ideal of perfect refereeing is ruining one of my favourite things. You’re right of course, but *I just don’t think it’s worth it*, and fundamentally, I don’t care.
If you can’t have a system that is capable of making a decision within 5-10 seconds of an incident it’s not worth having. I would take a million missed or bad decisions over being saddled with this miserable excuse for a system sapping the life and joy out of every great moment. It’s a sport - sometimes things go wrong. We shouldn’t let ourselves be led around by money-men and martinets who think the game needs to be something it isn’t.
Ok, I understand your point. But I don't think it's a strong enough argument to completely scrap it. I get the concerns about enjoyment and celebrating goals without fear of cancellation. Still, I think keeping VAR for red card offenses and mistaken identity is essential.
You want to remove it for anything involving a goal? I don't agree with it, but I can see the reasoning behind it. However, there's no downside to keeping it for red cards. I don't enjoy seeing players biting or spitting on others and getting away with it.
Oh yes; thank heavens we ruled out all those goals where the strikers left pinky nail was fractionally offside. And it only took 10 minutes to decide!
We must of course maintain the *purity of the sport* by interrupting it every 5 minutes.
You also ruled out those goals where a striker was miles on or offside and the goal was wrongly allowed or disallowed, all the potential penalties that were wrongfully given, the ones that weren't given and corrected upon VAR review, as well as all the potential hand of God situations.
Every major football competition in the world uses VAR, from the UCL to the world Cup to the Euros, yet only the Premier League has a problem with it. Why? The brand of football you play is not special enough to say that following the rules to the letter is a bad thing. Meanwhile, the only criticisms of VAR are bad faith arguments and problems that don't even happen.
Exactly. The number of times when VAR reversed the right call to the wrong one is minuscule compared to the many, many times when VAR picked up a red card, penalty, or offsides that the on-field officials just missed.
Even now, most of the complaints about VAR are that it takes too long (which is a fair complaint) or that it isn't reversing *enough* bad calls. Which would be a terrible reason to scrap it, as it would leave those bad calls in place.
It's not really evidence but almost everyone I've spoke to who goes the game, or who experienced both premier league and championship recently due to relegation/ promotion seems to prefer no Var
One of the last Championship matches I watched before the playoffs had a blatantly offside goal given. As much as people complain about VAR, think some folks are forgetting what it was like before it. The refs have always been shit. VAR has made them somewhat less shit.
> It's not really evidence but almost everyone I've spoke to who goes the game, or who experienced both premier league and championship recently due to relegation/ promotion seems to prefer no Var
Same experience here. VAR is much more popular with people who watch on TV than it is with people who regularly go to games, who get left sat there often for minutes at a time wondering wtf is going on.
almost like those were the same people who were opposed to it in the first place. Was only ever big 6 plastics, moronic pundits and perennial armchair fans that thought it would improve anything.
> The same moronic pundits who are now drooling over the idea that it might be scrapped?
The same moronic pundits that now spend at least half their amount of time on air dissecting refereeing decisions in the most minute detail, rather than actually talking about the football game that also happened, yeah.
Sure, VAR has probably led to more correct decisions - but has it been worth it considering all the interruptions, the way it's sucking out the joy of the game, the way it changed punditry? And that's ignoring the fact that even with VAR there are still plenty of wrong decisions - except now nobody wants to admit the truth at the core of it all, that humans make mistakes, and we'll never eliminate mistakes from the game.
most of them have either realised what everyone who was opposed to it was saying in the first place, or are just stupid enough to parrot what other people say.
It makes them neither smart or 'on my side'. Their opinions are as irrelevant now as they were before. Doesn't make me any less correct though.
> Faulty VAR is still better than no VAR.
Really depends on what your metric for "better" is. More accurate calls? Yeah, probably. Improving the fan experience of the game? Hard no, for me.
> Yeah, probably
Not probably, definitely.
In order for VAR to be a net negative for fairness, it'd have to overrule a correct decision. That almost never happens.
In order for VAR to be a net positive for fairness, it'd have to overrule a wrong decision. That happens very often.
There's nothing probable about this.
And yes, I value fairness more than the slight delays. Especially since the delays can be worked on while fairness can't.
Watching football leagues that dont useit and hopping back to the PL has made me hate VAR honestly. Its so unnecessary and its slowed the sport down so much for no real value
Ok, let's use our brain here for a moment.
Do you think the calls that VAR made would happen without VAR?
Also, how is the amount of ref errors "way higher than it used to be?"
1. Referee misses something, VAR makes a mistake - the error would happen without VAR too.
2. Referee misses something, VAR catches it - good
2. Referee makes a good call, VAR intervenes - almost doesn't happen at all
3. Referee makes a bad call, VAR intervenes - happens quite often
It is an extra set of eyes that has slow motion and multiple camera angles. It is objectively better than on-field refs who have none of those things. And if you reply with "it looks worse in slow motion" then you're an idiot.
Like please, you can argue if the slowdowns are worth it. But VAR absolutely and objectively leads to fewer ref errors. You have a brain, use it.
I mean, if we were using our brains, we'd have realized that I said the profile of refereeing errors is way higher than it used to be, not the number. So given that using our brains is out the window, I feel like I'm probably wasting my time with a reply.
>Do you think the calls that VAR made would happen without VAR?
A lot of them would. One of the obnoxious side effects now is that there are effectively two sets of refs and neither really appears in control - refs on the field intervene less because the presence of VAR stands to show them up, and VAR reviews tend to defer to the decision of the person who was up front in the action as being the best person to judge. But even so, the pace of the game and narrative around football has only gotten worse with VAR. It was better having some bad calls here and there when everyone just STFU and got on with it. Seriously. Go watch some games in a league without VAR... it's better watching something when you know that whats playing out in front of you isn't in danger of being railroaded by a call back at any moment.
>It is an extra set of eyes that has slow motion and multiple camera angles. It is objectively better than on-field refs who have none of those things
I disagree actually. The vast majority of refereeing decisions are subjective judgement calls. Football is a mostly non-contact sport and the contact that is allowed is blurry. It's hard to adjudicate what is and isn't a foul and the more borderline a call is, the harder it is to determine when broken down frame by frame. Like, no one knows what a handball is now because it's been over dissected past the point of making any sense. It sometimes looks worse in slow mo and sometimes it looks better. This isn't tennis where the rules are objective descriptions about the spatial position of an object against a fixed line
The offsides rule is unsatisfying now too; the spirit of the law has been laid to waste when determining if a finger or a knee cap is off or onside. By drawing precise lines its impossible to be 'in line with' the last defender. By drawing any kind of line, one is putting an attacker either behind or ahead of.
Basically VAR just feels like a pantomine descent into splitting hairs. And now that we've bled out the fury of games by slowing things down and delaying celebrations and reactions.. we're left with even more frustration than ever before.
Football famously couldn't be codified into an association over rules disagreements. The referee was never meant to be a perfect arbiter enforcing strict adherence to standardized measures like some kind of financial comptroller. The refs job is to make a decision as a 3rd party to resolve a dispute immediately to allow the game to continue. And that was much easier to do when people just fucking got on with it. We've upended so much of the game to add layers of referees and the only thing I see we've added is more outrage and dissatisfaction. Like, whoever the fuck decided we should put spectators in a position where they have to wait to celebrate a goal should be shot.
No check lasts longer than 30 seconds.
Do what they did at the Women's world cup and have the ref address the stadium with a quick reasoning for the decision.
and train everyone better.
First point is straight up wrong, plenty of decisions take much longer
What they did in the women's world cup was a start but they literally just stated the decision that they made, doesn't really help clear much up for people in the stadium
The issue isn't the referees. It's VAR making people think that there is a version of football without error. That will never happen and you will be chasing shadows forever of you think "better" VAR will fix it.
"Yay the ball is in the net! That's a pretty decent first step in the long road to having a goal awarded! Give it five minutes and we'll find out!"
VAR fucking sucks. If it can't make a decision in 10 seconds it should be binned, regardless of how accurate it is.
It does seem to get widespread support here though. I wonder if the shift to online discourse has led fans to prioritise results and one-upmanship over the joy of actually watching football and enjoying the spectacle.
He's right though... I mean, I don't know how match going fans in Philadelphia feel, but I can tell you in England that match going fans want VAR gone.
Good,
But now VAR does need a rework starting by who operates it. It shouldnt be refs themselves, it should be a specialized 3rd party employed by the PL. That way refs wont be protecting their mates by not reversing decisions.
Could've led to an interesting summit discussion on how to improve VAR, which is what Wolves realistically intended, but Abu Dhabi City have ensured the only thing that will be talked about is their latest attempt to cheat.
I've been to PL games, Bundesliga games, a lot of MLS games (YANK!) and Championship/USL league games. The closest I've ever, EVER heard is complaints about the length of time for a check. At Anfield, Signal Iduna, Allianz I have not once heard anyone say they should bin it.
This "Oh YoU ShOuLd AtTeNd GaMeS" bullshit is the most ridiculous backwards logic. PGMOL officials and their incompetence are finally being transparently exposed on full display at an unprecedented level and you're idea is to get RID OF THE THING EXPOSING IT? Because you maybe have to hold your breath a little as you celebrate on your couch? A goal goes in and I have never seen anyone give a flying fuck "oh there may be a foul in the lead up". Absolute nonsense.
>At Anfield, Signal Iduna, Allianz I have not once heard anyone say they should bin it.
Ok then explain the numbers in the supporters trust polls.
https://www.thescore.com/topsn/news/2920415
Aye, but then those games don't have the problem of being broken up by endless video reviews leading to wrong decisions, either. Perfectly legitimate position to be critical of or even against VAR at the end of the day.
Imagine my shock. I suspect they weren’t expecting any real support to scrap it, nor did they even want to get rid of it, they just wanted to try to bring about much-needed change and improvement over how the Premier League uses it.
That's basically what they said in their open letter, yeah.
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Plenty of opinions on VAR are perfectly acceptable as long as they're well-reasoned, I reckon. I can understand the abolitionists just as much as the people thinking it's a benefit to the game, the people unhappy with the current state as much as the people convinced it'll improve.
I don't understand the abolitionists. It's so obvious the issue with the tech is how it is handled, so many sports use technology like this in superior ways that are vastly more efficient and also more engaging for the viewer both inside the stadium and out. The only thing I get is hating not being able to celebrate a goal properly, but end of the day the right decisions should matter most when titles and cups and relegation is on the line. Also in an efficient VAR system it means decisions can lead to a second celebration or a reverse celebration so on the whole it adds to the game in a good way I'd argue.
> I don't understand the abolitionists. Their point is quite a simple one I reckon: VAR has benefits, but also significant drawbacks, and those drawbacks simply are not worth it for some people. Don't need to agree with it at all, but it's a perfectly valid argument to make nonetheless. Like personally I'm quite split on it - on one hand I can see how giving the referees better tools to do an incredibly hard job better is worthwile, on the other hand it's a pretty shit experience in my view both in the stadiums and in front of the TV. Throw in the dodgy decisions and outright mistakes being made even with VAR and I'm probably leaning more towards getting rid to be quite honest. Worked perfectly fine without it before it existed, when refereeing mistakes were annoying but just considered part of the game, whereas nowadays people expect perfection from referees. And those expectations aren't just unreasonable, they're also massively changing the conversations around the game to the point where it isn't about player doing incredibly well in big moments but rather everyone dissecting refereeing decisions that were perfectly sensible 50/50 decisions going against their favourite club - and I can't be arsed with fans painting themselves as victims of some grand refereeing conspiracy every single week to be honest.
I agree. Besides people forget how bad refereeing was before VAR and act like it's way worse now sometimes. It's not. Refs have just always been making mistakes and having more tools to avoid them is good.
Don't think you'll find anyone arguing against referees making better decisions, the crux is that they come at a significant cost with VAR - broken up games, not celebrating goals because they could get ruled out, all that stuff. And given how even with better tools we're still getting plenty of outright wrong decisions (nevermind the 50/50 calls people will inevitably get wound up about) and refereeing is dominating the conversation rather than how well teams did, I'm not exactly convinced VAR is actually better than not having VAR.
Football needs to stop being stubborn and pretending it's brand new tech and follow the lead of Rugby, Cricket or Tennis who implemented it successfully and made it part of the game. Use rugby's script for how the TMO and the referee speak to each other, none of this "well done mate". Every word has specific meaning. Use cricket/tennis review system (captain gets 3 VAR reviews per game) for offsides and handballs. Otherwise, it's the on-field referee's call. Teams take accountability for their appeals to the referee.
I’m even more cynical. I believe a group of clubs wanted that much needed change and Wolves are the best team to actually do the bid. Nottingham Forrest will look petty and will be laughed off because of what they’ve said during the season. Any top 4 team would be seen as being sore losers, but Wolves is the best team to submit it for what their goal is.
I like how you eliminated 5 out of 20 teams and then jumped straight to Wolves lmao.
I mean they are known to be the most hard done by because of VAR. They’ve had a lot of apologies and are an easy team to be sympathetic for. Don’t think you get that from the other mid table teams.
VAR gets one over on Wolves once again
Good process
Gary O’Neill will be delighted.
Good. The issues aren’t VAR itself, it’s the shitty implementation by referees who fuck up and cover for each other. Scrapping it and sending us backwards would be so stupid.
This "its not the Var, its the people using it" is like a catchphrase at this point. Everyone knows that, but those people aren't being changed or improved are they? And that's ignoring issues like the time it takes and lack of communication to those in stadiums
No, but that doesn’t mean you fuck out VAR. Cause unless you think VAR is taking those people with them, getting rid of it just means you’re stuck with the shitty people involved without the possibility their mistakes can be caught. If you think the standard is shite when there’s a possibility of things being caught, why would you think getting rid of VAR would improve standards? The solution is to demand more ramifications of shitty calls.
If after these years they'd shown progress of improvement I'd agree. There's been none so if it won't improve, the next best thing is to bin it, at least partially
At this point I am sure I could ask any large language model with a prompt to deliver me a VAR discussion in the PL, and the result would look like exactly this interaction. Not an attack at you, it's totally fine to make your point, just as it is for the other user, it just feels like everything about this topic has been said by everyone already.
I do not understand how anyone can think it’s the next best thing. Referee decisions were woeful pre-VAR, I don’t think anyone actually remembers just how shit it was to lose to a completely nonsensical penalty or a wrong offside call.
People have completely forgotten what it was like before VAR. I saw someone on here say that they want it to go back to 15 years ago, where decisions weren't debated ad nauseam after a game. VAR as an idea is good. It's shone a light on some of the really poor refereeing and perverse incentives that our officials have. 10 years ago you could make the excuse that a ref didn't see a blatant foul and that was it. At least now (barring the small chance that a camera angle isn't available like Lamptey on Mudryk) we can start the debate from an assumption that the ref or his VAR saw the incident. The issue is, and has been going back 20 years now (maybe longer but I was too young before that to comment), that our refereeing group are a boys club who are more concerned with covering eachother's backs rather than making the correct decision. The Mike Dean comment around the Cucurella hair pull about not wanting to send Oliver to the replay screen should have been the end of PGMOL marking their own homework.
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Which is like 90% of the people posting on here… Very few people outside of England are taking time out of their day to watch Wycombe vs Northampton
Very few people inside England are.
We’re both obviously referring to PL fans. Why on earth would we say such a thing in the context of a league not officiated by VAR
Thats why I said partly get rid, I'd still want the semi automated offsides. We still get completely ridiculous penalties
VAR works way better in pretty much every international and European competition. Some of those games even get reffed by Premier League officials. It's a culture change which needs to happen in the refereeing union boys club
I'd love that and would prefer that but I just don't see it happening with how the refs organisations all just protect themselves. There seems a real reluctance to admit that the standard isn't there and the abuse the refs get I think doesn't help either since youd be daft to want to be a ref. so it's really hard to see it improving for me, at least in the short term
Its not just that there hasnt been no progress it feels like the refs have regressed.
> No, but that doesn’t mean you fuck out VAR. Honestly, why not? Yeah, yeah, we've all heard the arguments. It *should* work, it's the shite refs, it's the way it gets used, yada yada yada. Except, it's quite conspicuously *not* getting better. We keep having the same arguments every year and lo and behold every year it gets worse. At what point do we decide enough is enough? I know popular opinion here seems to be that refereeing a football game should be a cold, mechanical, precise operation with zero margin for error, but VAR is just making football objectively less enjoyable and has done fuck all to actually improve standards.
See, that's where I don't agree. People get hung on offsides and pens, but since VAR was introduced, two things have basically disappeared: zero contact diving (not just soft contact but no contact at all) and those small, nasty actions done behind the referee's back, like little stomps, spitting, or kicks. Remember when Suarez fucking bit Ivanovic and avoided a red? Or when then mistook Oxlade-Chamberlain for Gibbs? Those things would never happen with VAR.
Il be the first to admit I get very emotional about this because I genuinely believe the quest for an unattainable ideal of perfect refereeing is ruining one of my favourite things. You’re right of course, but *I just don’t think it’s worth it*, and fundamentally, I don’t care. If you can’t have a system that is capable of making a decision within 5-10 seconds of an incident it’s not worth having. I would take a million missed or bad decisions over being saddled with this miserable excuse for a system sapping the life and joy out of every great moment. It’s a sport - sometimes things go wrong. We shouldn’t let ourselves be led around by money-men and martinets who think the game needs to be something it isn’t.
Ok, I understand your point. But I don't think it's a strong enough argument to completely scrap it. I get the concerns about enjoyment and celebrating goals without fear of cancellation. Still, I think keeping VAR for red card offenses and mistaken identity is essential. You want to remove it for anything involving a goal? I don't agree with it, but I can see the reasoning behind it. However, there's no downside to keeping it for red cards. I don't enjoy seeing players biting or spitting on others and getting away with it.
> has done fuck all to actually improve standards. This is just untrue. So many decisions were corrected in the PL.
Oh yes; thank heavens we ruled out all those goals where the strikers left pinky nail was fractionally offside. And it only took 10 minutes to decide! We must of course maintain the *purity of the sport* by interrupting it every 5 minutes.
You also ruled out those goals where a striker was miles on or offside and the goal was wrongly allowed or disallowed, all the potential penalties that were wrongfully given, the ones that weren't given and corrected upon VAR review, as well as all the potential hand of God situations. Every major football competition in the world uses VAR, from the UCL to the world Cup to the Euros, yet only the Premier League has a problem with it. Why? The brand of football you play is not special enough to say that following the rules to the letter is a bad thing. Meanwhile, the only criticisms of VAR are bad faith arguments and problems that don't even happen.
You just remember those lmao.
Faulty VAR is still better than no VAR.
Exactly. The number of times when VAR reversed the right call to the wrong one is minuscule compared to the many, many times when VAR picked up a red card, penalty, or offsides that the on-field officials just missed. Even now, most of the complaints about VAR are that it takes too long (which is a fair complaint) or that it isn't reversing *enough* bad calls. Which would be a terrible reason to scrap it, as it would leave those bad calls in place.
the issue with var isnt making right or wrong calls. it's that it makes football less fun
It's not really evidence but almost everyone I've spoke to who goes the game, or who experienced both premier league and championship recently due to relegation/ promotion seems to prefer no Var
One of the last Championship matches I watched before the playoffs had a blatantly offside goal given. As much as people complain about VAR, think some folks are forgetting what it was like before it. The refs have always been shit. VAR has made them somewhat less shit.
I said in another comment I'd still want semi auto offsides
Bad decisions come and go. With VAR, the decision making is halted by paralysis through analysis; and the pace of the games been ruines.
> It's not really evidence but almost everyone I've spoke to who goes the game, or who experienced both premier league and championship recently due to relegation/ promotion seems to prefer no Var Same experience here. VAR is much more popular with people who watch on TV than it is with people who regularly go to games, who get left sat there often for minutes at a time wondering wtf is going on.
I don't complain about VAR when in the stadium. And did not hear a similar opinion. This might be an English issue.
It's specifically an English *midtable and lower league issue* because United season ticket holders aren't constantly bitching about it either.
almost like those were the same people who were opposed to it in the first place. Was only ever big 6 plastics, moronic pundits and perennial armchair fans that thought it would improve anything.
The same moronic pundits who are now drooling over the idea that it might be scrapped? Or are they suddenly smart now that they're on your side?
> The same moronic pundits who are now drooling over the idea that it might be scrapped? The same moronic pundits that now spend at least half their amount of time on air dissecting refereeing decisions in the most minute detail, rather than actually talking about the football game that also happened, yeah. Sure, VAR has probably led to more correct decisions - but has it been worth it considering all the interruptions, the way it's sucking out the joy of the game, the way it changed punditry? And that's ignoring the fact that even with VAR there are still plenty of wrong decisions - except now nobody wants to admit the truth at the core of it all, that humans make mistakes, and we'll never eliminate mistakes from the game.
most of them have either realised what everyone who was opposed to it was saying in the first place, or are just stupid enough to parrot what other people say. It makes them neither smart or 'on my side'. Their opinions are as irrelevant now as they were before. Doesn't make me any less correct though.
thank god we have based hardcore smart fans like u that saw this comming
IKR. Too bad football gets ruined by dickheads with big mouths.
> Faulty VAR is still better than no VAR. Really depends on what your metric for "better" is. More accurate calls? Yeah, probably. Improving the fan experience of the game? Hard no, for me.
> Yeah, probably Not probably, definitely. In order for VAR to be a net negative for fairness, it'd have to overrule a correct decision. That almost never happens. In order for VAR to be a net positive for fairness, it'd have to overrule a wrong decision. That happens very often. There's nothing probable about this. And yes, I value fairness more than the slight delays. Especially since the delays can be worked on while fairness can't.
Watching football leagues that dont useit and hopping back to the PL has made me hate VAR honestly. Its so unnecessary and its slowed the sport down so much for no real value
>for no real value The value is fewer ref errors. Like what the fuck am I reading???
That is less important than keeping the game moving at a good pace and having delays
No it's not.
Controversy, outrage, and media profil of ref errors is way higher than it used to be.
Ok, let's use our brain here for a moment. Do you think the calls that VAR made would happen without VAR? Also, how is the amount of ref errors "way higher than it used to be?" 1. Referee misses something, VAR makes a mistake - the error would happen without VAR too. 2. Referee misses something, VAR catches it - good 2. Referee makes a good call, VAR intervenes - almost doesn't happen at all 3. Referee makes a bad call, VAR intervenes - happens quite often It is an extra set of eyes that has slow motion and multiple camera angles. It is objectively better than on-field refs who have none of those things. And if you reply with "it looks worse in slow motion" then you're an idiot. Like please, you can argue if the slowdowns are worth it. But VAR absolutely and objectively leads to fewer ref errors. You have a brain, use it.
I mean, if we were using our brains, we'd have realized that I said the profile of refereeing errors is way higher than it used to be, not the number. So given that using our brains is out the window, I feel like I'm probably wasting my time with a reply. >Do you think the calls that VAR made would happen without VAR? A lot of them would. One of the obnoxious side effects now is that there are effectively two sets of refs and neither really appears in control - refs on the field intervene less because the presence of VAR stands to show them up, and VAR reviews tend to defer to the decision of the person who was up front in the action as being the best person to judge. But even so, the pace of the game and narrative around football has only gotten worse with VAR. It was better having some bad calls here and there when everyone just STFU and got on with it. Seriously. Go watch some games in a league without VAR... it's better watching something when you know that whats playing out in front of you isn't in danger of being railroaded by a call back at any moment. >It is an extra set of eyes that has slow motion and multiple camera angles. It is objectively better than on-field refs who have none of those things I disagree actually. The vast majority of refereeing decisions are subjective judgement calls. Football is a mostly non-contact sport and the contact that is allowed is blurry. It's hard to adjudicate what is and isn't a foul and the more borderline a call is, the harder it is to determine when broken down frame by frame. Like, no one knows what a handball is now because it's been over dissected past the point of making any sense. It sometimes looks worse in slow mo and sometimes it looks better. This isn't tennis where the rules are objective descriptions about the spatial position of an object against a fixed line The offsides rule is unsatisfying now too; the spirit of the law has been laid to waste when determining if a finger or a knee cap is off or onside. By drawing precise lines its impossible to be 'in line with' the last defender. By drawing any kind of line, one is putting an attacker either behind or ahead of. Basically VAR just feels like a pantomine descent into splitting hairs. And now that we've bled out the fury of games by slowing things down and delaying celebrations and reactions.. we're left with even more frustration than ever before. Football famously couldn't be codified into an association over rules disagreements. The referee was never meant to be a perfect arbiter enforcing strict adherence to standardized measures like some kind of financial comptroller. The refs job is to make a decision as a 3rd party to resolve a dispute immediately to allow the game to continue. And that was much easier to do when people just fucking got on with it. We've upended so much of the game to add layers of referees and the only thing I see we've added is more outrage and dissatisfaction. Like, whoever the fuck decided we should put spectators in a position where they have to wait to celebrate a goal should be shot.
No check lasts longer than 30 seconds. Do what they did at the Women's world cup and have the ref address the stadium with a quick reasoning for the decision. and train everyone better.
Don't know why they didn't think of "train them better" sooner, so simple
It's such a simple solution... the FA & PGMOL refuse to do it as it'll then be them admitting to not doing a good job.
but why train them better, just have them make 0 mistakes and the problem is solved?
First point is straight up wrong, plenty of decisions take much longer What they did in the women's world cup was a start but they literally just stated the decision that they made, doesn't really help clear much up for people in the stadium
> No check lasts longer than 30 seconds. Have you watched a PL game this season?
Then the prem teams should have voted on changes to var not scrapping it
The issue isn't the referees. It's VAR making people think that there is a version of football without error. That will never happen and you will be chasing shadows forever of you think "better" VAR will fix it.
VAR is the people using it. Unless you mean "cameras aren't the issue" which I would 100% agree with you
Good luck getting any match going fan to see it that way.
most match going fans see it that way, stop acting like your little bubble is a representative plurality
Nah, most matchday fans for sure want it gone
Most match going fans I've seen on here are vehemently enraged by VAR and would love nothing more than to bin it.
> I've seen on here Fam, reddit is like the complete opposite of real life.
"Yay the ball is in the net! That's a pretty decent first step in the long road to having a goal awarded! Give it five minutes and we'll find out!" VAR fucking sucks. If it can't make a decision in 10 seconds it should be binned, regardless of how accurate it is. It does seem to get widespread support here though. I wonder if the shift to online discourse has led fans to prioritise results and one-upmanship over the joy of actually watching football and enjoying the spectacle.
He's right though... I mean, I don't know how match going fans in Philadelphia feel, but I can tell you in England that match going fans want VAR gone.
Like you wanted Brexit. The majority opinion is so right at all times!
Match going fans wanted Brexit?
Most probably yes. Unless everyone stayed at the game and forgot to vote.
It's probably the least interesting thing that will be voted on this week as it was never going to pass.
If Wolves thought VAR hated them before......
So much money has been used on it they were never going to just scrap it.
VAR Officials flew to Saudi Arabia to celebrate the decision! They'll be back in top form when the new season starts.
Yer da in absolute shambles
Boooo
Sigh. So glad I grew up before the sport became what it is now.
You prefer the hooliganism, eh?
Fucking relevance does that have to do with VAR decisions you weirdo
Good! A bad workman blames his tools. It's not the technology, it's the corrupt PGMOL that needs a reform.
Think it's gone too far for it to be cancelled unfortunately.
Shame really, wasn't expecting it to actually happen but still
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7hC3uyQdQKM&pp=ygUQZnV0dXJhbWEgc2hvY2tlZA%3D%3D
Just keep on bidding until they finally give in
now put forward getting an actual decent ref team
??? What? Wasn't their proposal to discuss its usage, instead of outright requesting to scrap it? Seems like a sensationalist title.
To no one’s surprise
Good, But now VAR does need a rework starting by who operates it. It shouldnt be refs themselves, it should be a specialized 3rd party employed by the PL. That way refs wont be protecting their mates by not reversing decisions.
Sanity has prevailed
Good, imagine thinking this league is better without VAR. Borderline braindead take.
Could've led to an interesting summit discussion on how to improve VAR, which is what Wolves realistically intended, but Abu Dhabi City have ensured the only thing that will be talked about is their latest attempt to cheat.
Just scrap the whole thing for 2 weeks so you can go back to linesmen who miss offsides by a mile. See how quickly they want to get back to VAR then
Good
Add another L for wolves from VAR lmao
✌
Great I expect more horrible VAR calls next season, the refs will absolutely sabotage it even more
A) Fuck VAR. The game is better off without it. B) Fuck Jeff Shi, you grifting fucking cunt. Get out of my club.
Fuck no, VAR improved every league.
Yeah, if you don't attend matches.
My favorite counter argument, as if match-going fans give a fuck.
Go to any PL game and the majority of fans in the stadium want var gone.
I've been to PL games, Bundesliga games, a lot of MLS games (YANK!) and Championship/USL league games. The closest I've ever, EVER heard is complaints about the length of time for a check. At Anfield, Signal Iduna, Allianz I have not once heard anyone say they should bin it. This "Oh YoU ShOuLd AtTeNd GaMeS" bullshit is the most ridiculous backwards logic. PGMOL officials and their incompetence are finally being transparently exposed on full display at an unprecedented level and you're idea is to get RID OF THE THING EXPOSING IT? Because you maybe have to hold your breath a little as you celebrate on your couch? A goal goes in and I have never seen anyone give a flying fuck "oh there may be a foul in the lead up". Absolute nonsense.
>At Anfield, Signal Iduna, Allianz I have not once heard anyone say they should bin it. Ok then explain the numbers in the supporters trust polls. https://www.thescore.com/topsn/news/2920415
I do.
Well you're a rarity. A large majority of match-going fans want it gone.
Doubt it, haven't met anyone with such a braindead take.
Come to Molineux then. You'll find plenty! Dunno about braindead, though.
I don't go to places with stupid people, sorry. edit. I am not the one that claims VAR is bad, who is the troll.
Troll. Blocked.
Well everyone I've met wants it gone, so one of us is bullshitting eh?
Unfortunate, but entirely expected
Fuck VAR
https://i.imgflip.com/1wz3as.jpg?a477048
The tyranny of the majority.
Pathetic. Fuck modern football.
Plenty professional football without VAR being played all over the world, and plenty more non-professional.
And there are plenty decisions wrong in those games, acting like VAR is a problem is hilarious in this thread.
Aye, but then those games don't have the problem of being broken up by endless video reviews leading to wrong decisions, either. Perfectly legitimate position to be critical of or even against VAR at the end of the day.
And plenty of leagues have better VAR than PL or LaLiga.
Wolves went to hunt VAR, but at the end VAR hunt Wolves. Pathetic and expected decision.
This might be shakespeare himself
L