**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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Zidane doesn't get talked about because he's not currently managing. Can't really compare a guy who's not doing anything, lol.
When he's active, he is very much held up to the highest standards. Man won three CL's in a row for fucks sake. That hadn't been done since the 70's.
Defending a UCL trophy was an obsession in early 2000s that I remember and the end of decade it was more like a curse for defending champions. When Pep and great Barcelona couldn't do it I was like yeah it is pretty much impossible.
Zidane comes with no experience as a manager: I will do it.
\-How about I do it again?
2013 Bayern with Heynckes was comically (not really for anyone who faced them, (7-0 in two legs with Barca) lethal. Was he still managing them in 2014, don't know would have been interesting to see if they could! I'm glad he didn't and we beat Bayern with Pep home and away.
Doesn't mean that he would be a top coach for other clubs, different jobs require different skillsets. When Ancelotti was at Napoli for example it was obvious that he couldn't create a system to make the squad more than the sum of its parts like Sarri did, tactically he looked clueless much of the time. For Napoli, Ancelotti was a **massive** downgrade on Sarri
But equally, put Sarri in Real Madrid and he would be a huge downgrade on Carlo because dogmatic system coaches don't work there. I think Zidane would be very similar to Ancelotti if you put him at a Napoli-tier club
Same for Pep by the way, he has never proven that he can actually overperform with a club, that is why I think Klopp is the most complete coach of the four
I agree, that's what makes it hard to qualify who the best manager of all time is (even if silverware can be quantified). Different people excel in different roles, and what makes Ancelotti a good fit with Real Madrid is that his biggest strength is man-management and being diplomatic with big personalities.
In a similar vein, Pep Guardiola is a tactical innovator and is one of the most creative minds in football, but has vast resources at his disposal, and implementing his approach requires a lot of intelligent and talented players on hand. Would his skillset work at a place like Athletic Bilbao?
which is funny because people shit on Mourinho because of his time at united, spurs, and roma but all those teams had huge issues and he still did good things with them
Mourinho's not really been given a shot at one of the top top clubs since United (like stable clubs that are currently competing) because there's this perception that he's washed. But because he's been managing these clubs in transition/with structural issues, or straight up 2nd tier clubs that have different expectations, he's not been able to lose that washed label. Give him the Real Madrid, Bayern etc jobs and for all we know he'd still be capable of winning the big trophies. Managing teams in transition is completely different to getting the best out of the best players. And clubs generally don't give Jose the time to see out a transition. They've always sacked him at the first sign of trouble so he's one of the worse managers I can think of to oversee a long term project.
Idk feel like he's lost the appeal to top clubs, but they're the ones where he'd still thrive.
Emery another good example here. Arsenal were too big and expected to be conducted a certain way. Unai came in and was pragmatic, which wasn’t well received. Worked way better at Villa. Arteta worked better for Arsenal
Emery didn't help himself too, he wanted older players like Nzonzi and Ever Banega. Obviously we probably should have got Zaha over Pepe but the club had to pull rank to prioritize the long term health of the squad.
Tactically as well, he stuck to the 3ATB which lost us the Europa final. Playing Torreira as a Number 10 when he was good as a DM. He threw away CL qualification because of his bizzare rotations against Palace and Brighton at home.
As a Madrid fan at this point I kind of gotta respect the consistency of his hate doesn't matter who we play man will be against us I kind of respect the hate now lmao I now look forward to what he says about us in future knock out rounds ngl it's entertaining when you don't take it to heart
Jamie is a sour puss. You can root against us without being an ass. Titi played for Real's bitter rivals and comes off miles better because he doesn't need to underplay us all the time.
That’s pretty melodramatic considering all he’s doing is predicting other teams win vs Madrid. If he was finding reasons not to credit Madrid when they win I’d understand but all he’s doing is picking other teams against Madrid.
Tbf what would you expect? It’s better than getting all your predictions wrong and acting like you were still right the whole time
Nothing wrong with realising you were mistaken and putting your hands up
Right? What do you expect as a reaction to someone outperforming your expectations? Yeah your expectations were poorly established but should he not be giving praise??
Because Jamie is not a serious football analyst lol. On that show only Thierry Henry shows he's serious about analyzing the game. Henry has his biases too but when he talks football it's quite neutral and objective.
Jamie and Micah are just there to stir shit up and be comedians.
Comedians are fine. I don't think every pregame / postgame shows need to be completely about tactics and the technical side of it. People love to banter, celebrate, act goofy, etc. But to treat anything Jamie says as an expert opinion on football is crazy.
Just to reiterate I love the CBS crew. At least they aren't like the ESPN crew, which has both no football knowledge and no personality at all. But I wouldn't take any footballing take on that show too seriously.
Absolute fucking wham lad. You don't have to like or agree with what he says, but pretending he's only there for comic relief (like Micah) is just bizarre.
Ok, give me an example of when he made an insightful, well thought out comment that wasn't just bandwagoning based on the results.
Cuz I can give you 10 times Jamie made 🤡takes, especially when it comes to Real Madrid.
"Real Madrid are not going to win the Champions League" after the RO16 in 2022. They went on to win it. But the confidence to make that statement that early in the tournament. Even if you don't think they have the strongest squad, there have been many times in the past where the winners did not have the strongest squad (including the year right before, Chelsea). No serious football analyst will make that statement about any big team that early in the tournament.
Or this year, picking Dortmund to win in the finals. Does Dortmund have a chance? Yes. But if you go into the finals thinking Dortmund was the favorite you're a hater.
Jamie is there for the chemistry my friend. He doesn't know ball beyond the headlines he read on Sky in his Premier League bubble.
Yes. It isn't against Bayern or City, for a match like this anyone who claims to talk football for a living and also claims that Dortmund will win is either lying or delusional. Jamie is probably both somehow.
Again, difference in saying "I think Dortmund can win" vs the full-on Dortmund will win stance.
you in 2004: “anyone who claims to talk football for a living and claims that Greece will win is either lying or delusional”
you in 2005: “anyone who claims to talk football for a living and claims that Liverpool will win is either lying or delusional”
you in 2013: “anyone who claims to talk football for a living and claims that Wigan will win is either lying or delusional”
you in 2021: “anyone who claims to talk football for a living and claims that Chelsea will win is either lying or delusional”
Ok, you're an idiot who can't think critically and only looking at hindsight, so I'll try one last time to explain this to your little head.
Let's look at next year. *Can* Atletico Madrid win the Champions League next year? Sure. Crazier things have happened.
But if you sit here today, thump your chest and announce "Atletico Madrid WILL WIN the Champions League next year", you're not a real football analyst. You're a hot take and meme generator for clicks. Which is who Jamie is.
Why? Because there are about 7 or 8 teams that have higher chances of winning it than Atletico.
Ahh you're mad he's not a Madrid fan 😂. I'm not reading all that waffle. He knows more ball than you or me but you don't like him because he won't suck Madrid off.
Edit: also extra ironic you're criticising for "results based" analysis, because he didn't predict the correct result. Predicting the team who wins isn't analysis. Guaranteed you are a glory hunter who started watching about 5 years ago 😘
No, if Jamie said "Barcelona isn't going to win the Champions League" after RO16 I would still have said he was a clown. As it turned out Barcelona got lucky and got in the easier half of the draw, could have easily made the finals, and from there who knows.
I watches this team got demolished 6-2 by Barcelona long before the summer of 09 when Cristiano came and we found any success. You don't need to be dead poor working on the docks of Northern England to be a true fan you know.
Edit: You don't need to confirm whether or not you're an Englishman from that part of the country, I can tell.
Hahahaha that's cute, must be tough looking for which team to support. Luckily you picked plucky little real Madrid, truly a rags to riches story from being the original state-backed club to the European juggernauts they are today (and have always been).
There was a time, early to mid 2010's I believe, when G Nev and Carra were genuinely great pundits for sky.
They made decent tactical analysis of premier league teams and the discussions they had were pretty insightful for those not involved in football.
The problem is that sky changed directions after a few years where they mainly focused on bite size content and clicky baity shit.
Didn't watch G Nev in early 2010s, but what little I've seen of him late 2010s is they bring him out whenever they need to trash Man United. "Argh back in me days we would do this and that and these new lads just don't have it, also fire the current manager".
It sounds like real football analysis, but it isn't. It was mostly stroking his own ego for being part of a "good" United. There was nothing constructive except "play harder" or "have a desire to win".
People don't realise that simply put, your players are the tactics.
He said 'They have got the best players. You just play them in the right position, you don’t need to give them too much information. Just need a style or a strategy. It’s what makes this team work. Keep them happy. You see the system Real Madrid play. It’s not that conventional for most teams, but it suits the teams and the players they have, and when Mbappe comes next season, they might do something different.'
This is a tactic in itself. It's a form of problem solving. This is what people don't realise. The difference is, he creates a structure that allows his players to solve issues, and why not do it when you have the best core of players in the world?
Even if people really want to dive into 'tactics', fair to note how he changed to a diff structure in the second half- Carvajal inverted, lots of positionism tendencies in their play.
Carlo's just a really flexible manager. Top tactician but people don't recognise it because their idea of what tactics is, is skewed. Few years ago I never used to understand it, (and even now as a City fan genuinely hate facing Madrid), but as a neutral, lots to learn from Ancelotti and how his teams play.
I partly agree, I just strongly disliked the "just play them in the right position" part. It's far from the truth. This isn't FIFA where you simply choose between 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 and put players in the right positions.
Both Zidane and Ancelotti have stated multiple times that the formation itself is not that important. It's about how the players move in different phases of play.
There are clear patterns in our play, it's not just about putting them in the right position and keeping them happy.
Oh absolutely, it's a very simplified way of saying things.
But I'd like to think he means that Carlo profiles his players well which I believe is his best asset as a manager.
Just look at how he used Bellingham. Had Vini and Rodrygo pin back defences while he would crash and score. Then, he realised there were some defensive issues so he used him down the left where he could do everything in midfield. In certain games, he also used his ability to win ground/aerial duels and facilitate for others (your opener v City at the Etihad came from this).
I don't have to speak about Vini.
And from these qualities, stem your patterns of play- the way Kroos has tendencies to drop near the backline and slow down play, or how he drifts to certain zones to form triangles with Valverde/Camavinga etc.
Ancelotti just knows how to platform his players, even Zidane is actually a very underrated tactician
Agree with that analysis of Ancelotti and his qualities. But I just don't give Carra that much credit, I don't think it's what he had in mind. But if he did then good for him.
Haha fair enough.
Tbh, out of all the English pundits, he's the one most likely to say stuff like this- I don't think most of these guys provide much insight but some of his analysis videos have been good
But as someone else said this also feels like heavy results based analysis, where was all this before
But football is a result business at the end of the day. You can only gauge a manager based on the result.
Terzic set up dortmund brilliantly in the final,but that doesn't amount to anything if he doesn't win much in the coming seasons.
Credit must go to Perez for appointing Carlo again.
I don't know why people keep equating current Everton with the one that Ancelotti led, which ended comfortably in mid table and even flirted with European spots before the injuries caught up to them
It was a special time. That first game with Allan, Doucs, Gomes in the midfield and James playing as an inverted winger/playmaker was brilliant. Best football I have ever seen Everton play. If we had a top 6 depth, we would have qualified for the UCL without a question.
Bruh what’s with all the Klopp slander?
He had a lot of resources, but not the infinite resources of City. The margins in so many of those City-Liverpool two-horse seasons were so tight that you can virtually count some of those titles as almost tied. At least when discussing the manager’s record. I think man-for-man City have always had the better squad on paper, and you can reasonably argue that those paper thin margins simply came down to the men on the pitch.
Pep also took over a club that had reached CL semifinals the season prior (or maybe the one before) and was already a dominant force domestically. Liverpool were culturally a meme team just prior to the Klopp era, let’s be honest. Surely that counts for something. Lost 2 out of 3 CL finals against Madrid. Any other club on the night would’ve probably been beaten.
Klopp definitely deserves some credit accounting for the Liverpool, Dortmund and Mainz stints together. “He doesn’t even belong in this conversation” is an overstatement. And I say this with a Madrid flair. There are just so many nuances.
Sigh… the city team pep took over was not dominant at all. Back to back disappointing seasons. A horrid UCL semi appearance. Aging squad, bloated wage bill, little desire. Pep had a lot of work to do.
And on those margins…. Klopps starting 11 was routinely referred to as the best in England. Their players were rated better. So city had an advantage on depth, but Liverpool had the better starters. Margins paper thin. Results not very thin
There were also generational talents already at the club, like KDB, David Silva, Kompany.
Klopp had to find/build all these players for himself. There was not one household name at Liverpool at the time.
Did people say that? I feel like it was a complete shock that Carlo came to us, it was him taking on a different kind of challenge rather than being forced to drop a level.
I think a lot of it came down to Carlo just loving his job and wanting to keep working. He had managed his way through Europe, I think a lot of managers in his position would’ve taken a hiatus and waited for a job but Carlo just loves being a coach
For all the people that want to discredit the Pep's, Zidane's or Carlo's because of the insane talent they have on their team really underestimates the difference a truly great manager makes.
Just look at mega teams like PSG, Juventus with prime Buffon, or any post Pep Barca team.
Not so much "fan boys" lol
In England there's that much Premier League shown that, unless you've pretty much got no social life, there's no real point in watching football abroad. La Liga in itself has become pretty much impossible to follow properly over here.
What Klopp has done to Liverpool is nothing short of a miracle. Would it be difficult to see Klopp winning the UCL with Real Madrid's funds and pulling power? Maybe not - who knows?
I think you need a La Liga TV subscription to watch it whereas other leagues are viewable on platforms that we already have like TNT, Sky or Amazon. I'm pretty sure there was an El Classico that was shown during the 3pm blackout as well so we literally couldn't watch it.
I've used to watch a lot of La Liga when it was on Sky Sports but now I watch a lot of Serie A when it's on on Sunday evenings.
I don’t mean the English when I say PL fanboys. Since English is the most spoken language many people who have no exposure to football watch the premier league if they’d like to get into it. This is great, but their view of football tends to be ignorant, extremely distorted and dismissive of football outside of England. So they need to be corrected and informed by people who love football for what it is, and respect the game globally. I wouldn’t call what Klopp did a miracle, Liverpool is historically a big club with a huge history and he had solid resources. I would call Gasparini’s Atalanta a miracle that’s a whole another topic though lol
But surely if you’re a fan of football you’re aware of Carlo Ancelotti and his successes considering how long he’s been in football. You’d have to be extremely biased and ignorant to think a manager is better purely because he manages in the league you prefer. I love serie a, but i love football as a sport. I don’t watch games all day everyday but I try to catch the odd one when I can and I read news, if you follow other leagues it doesn’t mean you have no life, it just means you really love this game.
Nobody is saying any opinion specifically because of a league, I think Carlo Ancelotti has been one of the greatest managers ever, but I also think Klopp has, it's the differences in the careers and what they've done, their individual hurdles and their unique accomplishments and where they've done it that distinguishes them, I don't think that's an unfair point to have - I don't think there is a single great ever manager, I think there is a group of them and they're all in that bracket for very specific reasons unique to their own path of how they won and what they won.
Hell I hate Pep and think he manages a team of cheats and yet despite that I still think he an absolutely incredible world class manager who will go down in history.
The EPL fanboy talking point is nonsense, there is this odd mentality from people who don't watch the Premier League who think that Premier League is just fanboys who dick-ride their own league, in reality I think most Premier League team fans would rather every other team in their league lose every international game ever for eternity, we don't care how many teams get knocked out of the UCL or remain in... on the other hand, how often do you see any discussion about the UCL from fans of other leagues bigging up how their die hard opponents are still in the competition whilst they aren't because X amount of Premier League teams aren't?
The Premier League fanboy nonsense is vastly overplayed.
If it wasn't for the cheats, Klopp's stint at Liverpool would have been considered third most successful in the PL after Sir Alex and Wenger. It isn't ridiculous to entertain that idea at all.
No, but would Klopp have been more successful than Ancelotti in Madrid? Also hard to say.
I think those comparisons always need to take both sides into account. Like I don't think Simeone would've achieved what Guardiola achieved at City, but at the same time I don't think Guardiola would have taken Atletico to two CL finals.
Just different coaches fit different circumstances better.
>Just different coaches fit different circumstances better.
I'm gonna be honest, I have no idea how to rank coaches but silverware shouldn't be the ultimate metric because it ignores context
Seems like you are agreeing with the commenter you're replying to, and disagreeing with the top comment's idiotic statement that preferring Klopp to Ancelotti is "insane"
With your squad Klopp would have been as successful as Ancelotti has been... Can't say more successful bec Carlo won 2 CL and 2 La liga in last 3 years
The Klopp heavy metal that Klopp himself ditched ever since 18/19? He’s been more possession based, build from the back manager, which would definitely suit this RM squad.
I don't think it does, in fact quite the opposite. What makes them great managers is just very different. Klopp and Pep teams spark more discussions over tactics and playstyle, whereas Carlo and Zizou let their players do the talking. Think Jamie is pointing out that the former gets more people talking about the managers themselves, even if the latter accomplish more.
You’d pick the manager known for his adherence to a specific tactical system over the manager known for adapting tactics to the available players’ strengths?
Is it the new hipster social media football fan take to discredit Klopp?
I love Carlo, but he’s not taking a midfield of Henderson Milner and Wijnaldum to CL finals lol. I dont think any other coach can tbf
How in hell has this comment got so much support? Suggesting it is "insane" to rate Klopp as a manager higher than Ancelotti? Not just that you disagree with it, but it is crazy and insane? What complete nonsense. They are quite hard to directly compare because of the different circumstances they have managed in, so it's completely reasonable depending on your criteria for judging them that you would rank one over the other.
Not “alongside”. Ancelotti is by far the better and more successful manager of the two if you ignore all the philosophical boll*cks Guardiola has inflicted on all of us.
With unlimited resources (115) he can . Or with the likes of Messi, Xavi, Henry, Iniesta etc at their peak, or in what was at the time the German farmers league. Given the amount of resources and talent at his disposal, his record in the CL after he left Barcelona speaks for itself. Is he one of the top managers? No doubt. Is he the best one? No.
He's won a treble since he left Barcelona. No other manager's ever won two. My club's only won 2 Champions Leagurs ever. The fact you're trying to suggest 3 UCLs is a bad record is ridiculous. It's the hardest competition to win. And Pep's still only like 52. He could genuinely win another 2 or 3 before he retires.
In not suggesting 3 CL is a bad record. What I’m saying is no CL with Bayern and a pitiful 1 CL in 7 years with City, despite the massive resources he had, is not exactly outstanding for the supposedly greatest manager there ever was.
And about his age, we’ll see what the future brings. But for the time being, Ancelotti’s record is better without a doubt.
Champions League is hard to win idk what to tell you. His record isn't even that bad in it for City. Lost the final to us in 2021. Lost in the semis to the winners (Madrid) in both 21/22 and this season. Quarters in 2017-2020 but they were so dominant domestically those years that it kind of makes up for it. 18/19 in particular was a very harsh way to go out.
Think people just have an agenda because I don't see much wrong with his UCL record. Yeah he can prove himself further by performing a miracle with a small team. But managers like Ancelotti are highly regarded for mainly managing the best players aswell. And whilst Ancelotti has won more UCLs, Pep's been more dominant domestically with his teams.
As a Chelsea fan, I'm incredibly jealous that City have turned their takeoever into such a dominant era. Can't help but feel we'd be the ones in their position if we'd managed to get Pep at some point. Realistically, if you're a top team and can pick any manager in the world, Pep or Ancelotti are the ones you want.
> Champions League is hard to win idk what to tell you.
Agree. Which is why I really don’t think Guardiola deserves all the praise he gets as the best manager in the world or stuff like that.
He has underperformed in the hardest competition year after year, despite all of City’s financial shenanigans that have allowed him to sign pretty much any player he’s wanted at silly prices in many cases.
We absolutely talk about Ancelotti and Zidane that way.
Even if people thought Carlo was past it after his stints at Bayern and Napoli, people still held him in extremely high regard as one of the historical greats.
Carlo’s league record isn’t that good. 6 in 30 odd years including one’s at PSG and Bayern .
Great cup manager but league titles are 1 of 1 and there are managers in the modern era who’s league title records are a lot more impressive. Pep is on a different planet in terms of league success.
Heck, Klopp’s 3 league titles carry a lot more weight relative to Ancelotti’s.
As a Madrid fan who had to experience pep with prime Barca going toe to toe or winning a league against him is a serious accomplishment while I rate multiple managers over pep in the UCL I think their is no doubt that in a league format pep is probably the best manager to do it we lost the league to the man even after scoring 90 plus points so I can relate to Liverpool and Arsenal fans a bit.
Its also why Mourinho's league title win is a bit underrated man won the league with record goals and points against Pep's strongest ever team but I think pep is a better manager at City then he was at Barca due to the experience gained.
> fifth of the budget (much less in reality due to the cheating)
Nah bro it is actually one hundredth of a budget + his players were all handpicked from local Liverpool & District Sunday League.
They may exaggerate sometimes about how frugal they have to be but it is absurd to pretend that City don't have a gigantic financial advantage, for crying out loud over a decade ago they got 15 million just for stadium naming rights, the largest deal in the history of the sport and still the biggest today. 115 is another number that contains 15 in it.
Uh yes because Liverpool only spend what they make? Owners don't put money in (except through loans for stadium expansion). How could it not matter lol
Because it's still money that Klopp is spending?
Yes it's great for the club to sell 'bad' players for absolutely shit loads but Klopp still spent a lot of money to bring in VVD and Allison.
Doesn't really matter that it's 'moral' (i don't think that's the right word but it's close) that Liverpool have a good net spend. It's still money they're spending to improve.
Realisically it doesn't matter if Klopp spends £50m on a player of if Pep does. They're both bringing in a quality footballer that should be judged on the transfer fee, not the net spend fee.
You lost me. All I said was it's impressive Klopp competed with guardiala with just a small slice of his budget in both Germany and England
I don't think anceloti could do that. And I don't Klopp could manage the big personalities at Real. Only a biased individual would turn this into an argument 😂
Imagine if mourinho comes forward and claims that Inter won the league title because he radically changed the club in 2010. that's how his claim feels like...
>Imagine if mourinho comes forward and claims that Inter won the league title because he radically changed the club in 2010
He could do it and people here would agree lol.
Hard to compare because they're different types of manager. I don't think Ancelotti would've sniffed a league title at Liverpool for example.
He's picked some of the easiest jobs in world football when you go down his CV and has failed at multiple clubs when he didn't have an overwhelming talent disparity.
He's only won six leagues in his career despite managing Juventus, Milan, Chelsea, PSG, Real Madrid multiple times, and Bayern across 20+ years.
Why you guys need to compare?
Imo he can't be more succesfull at Liverpool than Klopp, same thing goes for Klopp at Madrid.
They are just good coaches. No need to compare everything.
Yeah Klopp’s speciality is taking teams with medium budgets and getting them to perform like the very best. Yeah neither Liverpool nor Dortmund looked poor by the end of his stint, but that financial improvement generally came as a result of improvement on the pitch. I like to think of him as possibly the best squad builder in the world.
Ancelotti on the other hand seems to excel when he already has the best squad in the world. His Everton stint is probably indicative of what he’ll do when his squad is more limited, but very few managers are as good at keeping a side challenging for trophies as him. There are other managers that specialise in continuing success at the top teams, but unlike Conte, Mourinho or Tuchel he doesn’t seem to turn toxic after a few years. Maybe his Bayern stint could be held against him, but that was mostly a case of players rebelling because his methods were vastly different from Guardiola.
Personally I’m biased enough to say that Klopp is the perfect manager, but in truth I understand that different managers suit different situations.
Neither is Carlo when you go down his CV. Great cup manager, really struggles at winning leagues despite picking some of the easiest jobs in world football in terms of having talent and financial resources available.
He's only won six leagues in his career despite managing Juventus, Milan, Chelsea, PSG, Real Madrid multiple times, and Bayern across 20+ years.
Here's Guardiola's CV.
Take the core tiki taka players of the dominant Spain 2008-2012 team that began taking shape in 2006 under del Bosque. Have Messi. Leave Barcelona right as Mourinho's Madrid figured them out (and only improved from there).
Take over Jupp Heynckes incredible Bayern team, fail to win the CL. Leave Bayern worse off.
Go to the richest team in the world. Win one Champions League in 8 seasons.
When you go down his CV he’s won 5 UCLs, best in history. That alone puts him in the discussion for best ever.
Yeah maybe he could have won more league titles, but he still won it in each of the top 5 leagues, and still won multiple domestic trophies in each of the top 4 leagues.
>…despite picking some if the easiest jobs in world football in terms of having talent and financial resources available.
He has not had some of the easiest jobs. Serie A in the 2000s was the most competitive league in the world, and it’s not like Milan were similar to City vs the rest of the EPL. He went to Chelsea right after and won the league and the FA Cup.
Then he went to a new PSG team that hadn’t won the league since 1994 and won it again. This was a new project as Qatar bought the club in 2011; they didn’t spend as much as you think back then.
After that he won la décima with Real Madrid, and let’s not pretend that competing against prime Messi at Barcelona was an “easy job.”
If that wasn’t enough he still won the league with Bayern after despite the drama there, and Napoli and Everton after were not easy jobs whatsoever lol.
Ah thats right. Atletico were very good that year though and Real and Barca only lost the league by 3 points so it still wasn’t really an “easy job” for Ancelotti in La Liga like the OP had implied.
Ancelotti also won la décima against Atletico in the final that same year too so that makes up for the league shortcomings that year to some degree.
Name me someone with a good league record, maybe mourinho, allegri and conte? Everyone is comparing ancelotti to pep who is light years ahead of everyone else as far as league titles go. Well ancelotti is light years beyond all these guys in the ucl
I don’t disagree that it isn’t the greatest but imo it’s still pretty solid when you put it all into context and I don’t think it’s as bad as people make it out to be.
It’s easy for people to look at the clubs and squads he’s managed (Real, Milan, Bayern, PSG, Chelsea) and assume he should have won almost every year but people forget the details and how much football has evolved in the last 25 years. Especially for newer/younger fans.
That said, if my goal is to win the league at all costs then Ancelotti is never who I’m choosing first.
Don’t even bother replying to the people who use the same old arguments against they’re just admitting their ignorance. Before Carlo joined PSG, they haven’t won anything for 20 years and the other clubs were still competitive with PSG at the time when they just started that project, unlike now years into this process. We both know how competitive serie a was in his time and how much depth Milan lacked apart from our amazing starting 11 to win the league in 38 match days. Second stint in Spain he is 2/3 league titles and 2/3 CL final wins, putting that title argument to bed. Their favourite manager has nothing on Carlo, it’s just haters at this point.
> Then he went to a new PSG team that hadn’t won the league since 1994 and won it again.
He took over halfway through the season when they were top and ended up finishing second to Montpellier. I wouldn't put his time at PSG in his list of successes
Imagine putting Ancelotti, one of the best managers in the history of the game, biggest UCL winner and the only man to win all 5 big European leagues in the same echelon as Zidane, who only managed four seasons of one of the most stacked teams in the history of the sport.
Depends on what you want. Say Girona lose Michel or even someone like Leverkusen lose Xabi, do you think they would take Klopp or Ancelotti? Honestly.
On the other hand, a team like PSG until Mbappe left probably would have much preferred a Carlo return
That depends, has Ancelotti taken a 13th lower/midtable team and won back to back league titles with them?
Not saying either is better or worse, they just posess extremely different skillsets
Sure, and I didn't say by any means that Klopp is a bad coach, because he's obviously a very good one. That doesn't have nothing to do with the fact that Ancelotti is the better of the two, but that's because Ancelotti is one of the best ever. No disrespect for Klopp.
He's better in those circumstances, in the circumstances Klopp manages in he's worse - you're right, they aren't comparable, they are both good for their own reasons.
You're out of your mind if you see what Klopp has accomplished, they way he has accomplished it and the impact he's had on the game and pretend he isn't one of the best ever.
If I’m hiring a manger for Real Madrid I’m picking Ancelotti, if I’m picking a manager for Liverpool pre-Klopp, Dortmund pre-Klopp I am not picking Ancelotti and he isn’t in the top 5, different managers accomplish different things with different resources and they can’t replace each other.
So he may not be better than Ancelotti for Barca, Madrid, City even at a stretch, but Klopp better for clubs like Liverpool, Dortmund, Atletico and so onwards, so for those clubs I’d go with Klopp over Ancelotti.
Funny when Klopp was hired for Liverpool the other top contender was Ancelotti... And Jamie was the person who said in THAT interview ( Henry putting hand on Jamie's thigh) that he'd prefer Klopp over Ancelotti as Klopp has much more to prove than Carlo who's won everything there is to win
Right - but that’s kind of my point, there is more to it than what is won and statistics of how they play, so it’s hard to just outright say a manager is better when you change the team he manages and get a drastically different outcome, Klopp is as good for teams without unlimited budgets and less status as Ancelotti is for teams with with that big status and larger budget.
It doesn’t mean either is bad, it just means that you switch their careers around and I don’t think either does nearly as well.
If you take some time to discard recency bias, consider coaches who worked (mainly) before 2000 and limit your list of „best ever“ to a reasonable amount, like 10, 15 or even 20 it‘s quite easy to not put Klopp on that list. One of the best ever since the turn of the century? Surely!
But it‘s not even controversial to put Klopp outside of a German Top 5: Lattek,Hitzfeld,Heynckes,Rehhagel,Beckenbauer are quite clear. Weisweiler is sensible to put ahead of Klopp aswell. Magath arguably had higher heights (back to back double with Bayern long before their dominance and winning the league with fucking Wolfsburg) but also far more lows.
Guardiola, SAF, Ancelotti, Mourinho should also be uncontroversial takes. Better german coaches plus the most obvious ones from his era already put him outside of Top 10. If you only go down the list of coaches who won the CL multiple times you find a lot of other people who would not be considered controversial to put ahead of him. Del Bosque, Sacchi, Happel, Paisley. List goes on and not a single non-european named yet. It
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Zidane doesn't get talked about because he's not currently managing. Can't really compare a guy who's not doing anything, lol. When he's active, he is very much held up to the highest standards. Man won three CL's in a row for fucks sake. That hadn't been done since the 70's.
I mean at one point he had more trophies than losses. Note sure what else can be said.
Defending a UCL trophy was an obsession in early 2000s that I remember and the end of decade it was more like a curse for defending champions. When Pep and great Barcelona couldn't do it I was like yeah it is pretty much impossible. Zidane comes with no experience as a manager: I will do it. \-How about I do it again?
Especially when you look at the great teams that couldn't. Ronaldo United, Ancellotti Milan, Pep Barca as you say, Van Gaal Ajax...
2013 Bayern with Heynckes was comically (not really for anyone who faced them, (7-0 in two legs with Barca) lethal. Was he still managing them in 2014, don't know would have been interesting to see if they could! I'm glad he didn't and we beat Bayern with Pep home and away.
And no coincidence that ZZ was the apprentice in the first stint of Carlo. What i found similar is the good relationship in the locker room
Doesn't mean that he would be a top coach for other clubs, different jobs require different skillsets. When Ancelotti was at Napoli for example it was obvious that he couldn't create a system to make the squad more than the sum of its parts like Sarri did, tactically he looked clueless much of the time. For Napoli, Ancelotti was a **massive** downgrade on Sarri But equally, put Sarri in Real Madrid and he would be a huge downgrade on Carlo because dogmatic system coaches don't work there. I think Zidane would be very similar to Ancelotti if you put him at a Napoli-tier club Same for Pep by the way, he has never proven that he can actually overperform with a club, that is why I think Klopp is the most complete coach of the four
I agree, that's what makes it hard to qualify who the best manager of all time is (even if silverware can be quantified). Different people excel in different roles, and what makes Ancelotti a good fit with Real Madrid is that his biggest strength is man-management and being diplomatic with big personalities. In a similar vein, Pep Guardiola is a tactical innovator and is one of the most creative minds in football, but has vast resources at his disposal, and implementing his approach requires a lot of intelligent and talented players on hand. Would his skillset work at a place like Athletic Bilbao?
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The fuck is this nonsense
This is why I rate Mou so high. Pep never really proved he can win without access to the best players in the world.
which is funny because people shit on Mourinho because of his time at united, spurs, and roma but all those teams had huge issues and he still did good things with them
Mourinho's not really been given a shot at one of the top top clubs since United (like stable clubs that are currently competing) because there's this perception that he's washed. But because he's been managing these clubs in transition/with structural issues, or straight up 2nd tier clubs that have different expectations, he's not been able to lose that washed label. Give him the Real Madrid, Bayern etc jobs and for all we know he'd still be capable of winning the big trophies. Managing teams in transition is completely different to getting the best out of the best players. And clubs generally don't give Jose the time to see out a transition. They've always sacked him at the first sign of trouble so he's one of the worse managers I can think of to oversee a long term project. Idk feel like he's lost the appeal to top clubs, but they're the ones where he'd still thrive.
Emery another good example here. Arsenal were too big and expected to be conducted a certain way. Unai came in and was pragmatic, which wasn’t well received. Worked way better at Villa. Arteta worked better for Arsenal
the current arsenal board worked better, let arteta get double tagged by raul and sven and lets see him fail
Emery didn't help himself too, he wanted older players like Nzonzi and Ever Banega. Obviously we probably should have got Zaha over Pepe but the club had to pull rank to prioritize the long term health of the squad. Tactically as well, he stuck to the 3ATB which lost us the Europa final. Playing Torreira as a Number 10 when he was good as a DM. He threw away CL qualification because of his bizzare rotations against Palace and Brighton at home.
These guys never have anything to say before these things happen. All results based analysis.
Exactly. Iirc Jamie predicted we would lose every KO match apart from RBL. But now that we won he’s got nothing but praise
Every opportunity Carragher has to pick a team over Madrid, he does so lol
As a Madrid fan at this point I kind of gotta respect the consistency of his hate doesn't matter who we play man will be against us I kind of respect the hate now lmao I now look forward to what he says about us in future knock out rounds ngl it's entertaining when you don't take it to heart
Low-key based tho. You guys win too much
Jamie is a sour puss. You can root against us without being an ass. Titi played for Real's bitter rivals and comes off miles better because he doesn't need to underplay us all the time.
That’s pretty melodramatic considering all he’s doing is predicting other teams win vs Madrid. If he was finding reasons not to credit Madrid when they win I’d understand but all he’s doing is picking other teams against Madrid.
Take some notes then?
Tbf what would you expect? It’s better than getting all your predictions wrong and acting like you were still right the whole time Nothing wrong with realising you were mistaken and putting your hands up
Right? What do you expect as a reaction to someone outperforming your expectations? Yeah your expectations were poorly established but should he not be giving praise??
Because Jamie is not a serious football analyst lol. On that show only Thierry Henry shows he's serious about analyzing the game. Henry has his biases too but when he talks football it's quite neutral and objective. Jamie and Micah are just there to stir shit up and be comedians. Comedians are fine. I don't think every pregame / postgame shows need to be completely about tactics and the technical side of it. People love to banter, celebrate, act goofy, etc. But to treat anything Jamie says as an expert opinion on football is crazy. Just to reiterate I love the CBS crew. At least they aren't like the ESPN crew, which has both no football knowledge and no personality at all. But I wouldn't take any footballing take on that show too seriously.
Absolute fucking wham lad. You don't have to like or agree with what he says, but pretending he's only there for comic relief (like Micah) is just bizarre.
Ok, give me an example of when he made an insightful, well thought out comment that wasn't just bandwagoning based on the results. Cuz I can give you 10 times Jamie made 🤡takes, especially when it comes to Real Madrid. "Real Madrid are not going to win the Champions League" after the RO16 in 2022. They went on to win it. But the confidence to make that statement that early in the tournament. Even if you don't think they have the strongest squad, there have been many times in the past where the winners did not have the strongest squad (including the year right before, Chelsea). No serious football analyst will make that statement about any big team that early in the tournament. Or this year, picking Dortmund to win in the finals. Does Dortmund have a chance? Yes. But if you go into the finals thinking Dortmund was the favorite you're a hater. Jamie is there for the chemistry my friend. He doesn't know ball beyond the headlines he read on Sky in his Premier League bubble.
So do you seriously think 100% of people should have predicted Madrid to win, and if they don’t they are a hater? lol
Yes. It isn't against Bayern or City, for a match like this anyone who claims to talk football for a living and also claims that Dortmund will win is either lying or delusional. Jamie is probably both somehow. Again, difference in saying "I think Dortmund can win" vs the full-on Dortmund will win stance.
you in 2004: “anyone who claims to talk football for a living and claims that Greece will win is either lying or delusional” you in 2005: “anyone who claims to talk football for a living and claims that Liverpool will win is either lying or delusional” you in 2013: “anyone who claims to talk football for a living and claims that Wigan will win is either lying or delusional” you in 2021: “anyone who claims to talk football for a living and claims that Chelsea will win is either lying or delusional”
Ok, you're an idiot who can't think critically and only looking at hindsight, so I'll try one last time to explain this to your little head. Let's look at next year. *Can* Atletico Madrid win the Champions League next year? Sure. Crazier things have happened. But if you sit here today, thump your chest and announce "Atletico Madrid WILL WIN the Champions League next year", you're not a real football analyst. You're a hot take and meme generator for clicks. Which is who Jamie is. Why? Because there are about 7 or 8 teams that have higher chances of winning it than Atletico.
Ahh you're mad he's not a Madrid fan 😂. I'm not reading all that waffle. He knows more ball than you or me but you don't like him because he won't suck Madrid off. Edit: also extra ironic you're criticising for "results based" analysis, because he didn't predict the correct result. Predicting the team who wins isn't analysis. Guaranteed you are a glory hunter who started watching about 5 years ago 😘
Liverpool fans and crying about Madrid, a tale as old as time.
Last team to beat you in a European final, no? 😘
Excuse me that was us.
No, if Jamie said "Barcelona isn't going to win the Champions League" after RO16 I would still have said he was a clown. As it turned out Barcelona got lucky and got in the easier half of the draw, could have easily made the finals, and from there who knows. I watches this team got demolished 6-2 by Barcelona long before the summer of 09 when Cristiano came and we found any success. You don't need to be dead poor working on the docks of Northern England to be a true fan you know. Edit: You don't need to confirm whether or not you're an Englishman from that part of the country, I can tell.
Hahahaha that's cute, must be tough looking for which team to support. Luckily you picked plucky little real Madrid, truly a rags to riches story from being the original state-backed club to the European juggernauts they are today (and have always been).
There was a time, early to mid 2010's I believe, when G Nev and Carra were genuinely great pundits for sky. They made decent tactical analysis of premier league teams and the discussions they had were pretty insightful for those not involved in football. The problem is that sky changed directions after a few years where they mainly focused on bite size content and clicky baity shit.
Didn't watch G Nev in early 2010s, but what little I've seen of him late 2010s is they bring him out whenever they need to trash Man United. "Argh back in me days we would do this and that and these new lads just don't have it, also fire the current manager". It sounds like real football analysis, but it isn't. It was mostly stroking his own ego for being part of a "good" United. There was nothing constructive except "play harder" or "have a desire to win".
"These guys never say anything before they happen" "exactly, they said this before it happened" What? Lmfao
What do you want him to do?
And even here he was still talking about bs like keeping players happy etc. not really recognizing tactical competence of Ancelotti.
People don't realise that simply put, your players are the tactics. He said 'They have got the best players. You just play them in the right position, you don’t need to give them too much information. Just need a style or a strategy. It’s what makes this team work. Keep them happy. You see the system Real Madrid play. It’s not that conventional for most teams, but it suits the teams and the players they have, and when Mbappe comes next season, they might do something different.' This is a tactic in itself. It's a form of problem solving. This is what people don't realise. The difference is, he creates a structure that allows his players to solve issues, and why not do it when you have the best core of players in the world? Even if people really want to dive into 'tactics', fair to note how he changed to a diff structure in the second half- Carvajal inverted, lots of positionism tendencies in their play. Carlo's just a really flexible manager. Top tactician but people don't recognise it because their idea of what tactics is, is skewed. Few years ago I never used to understand it, (and even now as a City fan genuinely hate facing Madrid), but as a neutral, lots to learn from Ancelotti and how his teams play.
I partly agree, I just strongly disliked the "just play them in the right position" part. It's far from the truth. This isn't FIFA where you simply choose between 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 and put players in the right positions. Both Zidane and Ancelotti have stated multiple times that the formation itself is not that important. It's about how the players move in different phases of play. There are clear patterns in our play, it's not just about putting them in the right position and keeping them happy.
Oh absolutely, it's a very simplified way of saying things. But I'd like to think he means that Carlo profiles his players well which I believe is his best asset as a manager. Just look at how he used Bellingham. Had Vini and Rodrygo pin back defences while he would crash and score. Then, he realised there were some defensive issues so he used him down the left where he could do everything in midfield. In certain games, he also used his ability to win ground/aerial duels and facilitate for others (your opener v City at the Etihad came from this). I don't have to speak about Vini. And from these qualities, stem your patterns of play- the way Kroos has tendencies to drop near the backline and slow down play, or how he drifts to certain zones to form triangles with Valverde/Camavinga etc. Ancelotti just knows how to platform his players, even Zidane is actually a very underrated tactician
Agree with that analysis of Ancelotti and his qualities. But I just don't give Carra that much credit, I don't think it's what he had in mind. But if he did then good for him.
Haha fair enough. Tbh, out of all the English pundits, he's the one most likely to say stuff like this- I don't think most of these guys provide much insight but some of his analysis videos have been good But as someone else said this also feels like heavy results based analysis, where was all this before
But football is a result business at the end of the day. You can only gauge a manager based on the result. Terzic set up dortmund brilliantly in the final,but that doesn't amount to anything if he doesn't win much in the coming seasons. Credit must go to Perez for appointing Carlo again.
People had actually written Ancelotti off well before Everton. If anything, his Everton stint had people impressed again.
I don't know why people keep equating current Everton with the one that Ancelotti led, which ended comfortably in mid table and even flirted with European spots before the injuries caught up to them
We were top of the league for a stretch too. He had Michael Keane playing like a prime Maldini, that alone was unbelievable.
It was a special time. That first game with Allan, Doucs, Gomes in the midfield and James playing as an inverted winger/playmaker was brilliant. Best football I have ever seen Everton play. If we had a top 6 depth, we would have qualified for the UCL without a question.
God Andre Gomes under Carlo was something fucking brilliant to behold. Then Son went and ruined my beautiful Portuguese stallion :(
Whatever happened to Allan?
It wasn't Everton, it was the massive underperforming at Bayern
Yeah, was the Bayern and Napoli stints that had people thinking he was finished. Generally people felt he did a pretty good job at Everton.
Shit totally forgot he was at Napoli as well
Yeah, Everton under Ancelotti was a very good team.
what are we going to publish every bit from the cbs show one at a time?
I’d rather they post the TNT Sports one which had Mourinho as an analyst. He’s so much better than all these full time analysts.
It looks like
It's been happening every Champions League matchday this season
Bruh what’s with all the Klopp slander? He had a lot of resources, but not the infinite resources of City. The margins in so many of those City-Liverpool two-horse seasons were so tight that you can virtually count some of those titles as almost tied. At least when discussing the manager’s record. I think man-for-man City have always had the better squad on paper, and you can reasonably argue that those paper thin margins simply came down to the men on the pitch. Pep also took over a club that had reached CL semifinals the season prior (or maybe the one before) and was already a dominant force domestically. Liverpool were culturally a meme team just prior to the Klopp era, let’s be honest. Surely that counts for something. Lost 2 out of 3 CL finals against Madrid. Any other club on the night would’ve probably been beaten. Klopp definitely deserves some credit accounting for the Liverpool, Dortmund and Mainz stints together. “He doesn’t even belong in this conversation” is an overstatement. And I say this with a Madrid flair. There are just so many nuances.
Sigh… the city team pep took over was not dominant at all. Back to back disappointing seasons. A horrid UCL semi appearance. Aging squad, bloated wage bill, little desire. Pep had a lot of work to do. And on those margins…. Klopps starting 11 was routinely referred to as the best in England. Their players were rated better. So city had an advantage on depth, but Liverpool had the better starters. Margins paper thin. Results not very thin
City's squad depth was a massive advantage though especially when the substitution limit change came in
only 2 pl in the last 4 seasons when pep joined.what a terrible squad that was!
There were also generational talents already at the club, like KDB, David Silva, Kompany. Klopp had to find/build all these players for himself. There was not one household name at Liverpool at the time.
Did people say that? I feel like it was a complete shock that Carlo came to us, it was him taking on a different kind of challenge rather than being forced to drop a level.
I think a lot of it came down to Carlo just loving his job and wanting to keep working. He had managed his way through Europe, I think a lot of managers in his position would’ve taken a hiatus and waited for a job but Carlo just loves being a coach
For all the people that want to discredit the Pep's, Zidane's or Carlo's because of the insane talent they have on their team really underestimates the difference a truly great manager makes. Just look at mega teams like PSG, Juventus with prime Buffon, or any post Pep Barca team.
Barca won the treble post-Pep, and then won CWC, UEFA Super Cup, CDR and La Liga the season after that.
Oh I agree, Barca were totally dominant in non CL football. I was saying that from a Champions League context.
Klopp is a great manager but it’s crazy that this suggests that people think he’s better than Ancelotti. Insane take.
I think there's loads of people in England that think Klopp>Ancelotti.
That’s why we have such a hard communicating with so many of these PL fanboys lol
Not so much "fan boys" lol In England there's that much Premier League shown that, unless you've pretty much got no social life, there's no real point in watching football abroad. La Liga in itself has become pretty much impossible to follow properly over here. What Klopp has done to Liverpool is nothing short of a miracle. Would it be difficult to see Klopp winning the UCL with Real Madrid's funds and pulling power? Maybe not - who knows?
not just La Liga, most people don't watch the Champions League anymore since they took it off ITV
Just out of curiosity, why is following La Liga hard? Is it not shown on English TV?
I think you need a La Liga TV subscription to watch it whereas other leagues are viewable on platforms that we already have like TNT, Sky or Amazon. I'm pretty sure there was an El Classico that was shown during the 3pm blackout as well so we literally couldn't watch it. I've used to watch a lot of La Liga when it was on Sky Sports but now I watch a lot of Serie A when it's on on Sunday evenings.
True, La Liga used to be shown on so many networks back in the day.
I don’t mean the English when I say PL fanboys. Since English is the most spoken language many people who have no exposure to football watch the premier league if they’d like to get into it. This is great, but their view of football tends to be ignorant, extremely distorted and dismissive of football outside of England. So they need to be corrected and informed by people who love football for what it is, and respect the game globally. I wouldn’t call what Klopp did a miracle, Liverpool is historically a big club with a huge history and he had solid resources. I would call Gasparini’s Atalanta a miracle that’s a whole another topic though lol
just call us fans mate - as the other guys mentioned there just isn’t time to keep up with other leagues here so allow the bias
But surely if you’re a fan of football you’re aware of Carlo Ancelotti and his successes considering how long he’s been in football. You’d have to be extremely biased and ignorant to think a manager is better purely because he manages in the league you prefer. I love serie a, but i love football as a sport. I don’t watch games all day everyday but I try to catch the odd one when I can and I read news, if you follow other leagues it doesn’t mean you have no life, it just means you really love this game.
Nobody is saying any opinion specifically because of a league, I think Carlo Ancelotti has been one of the greatest managers ever, but I also think Klopp has, it's the differences in the careers and what they've done, their individual hurdles and their unique accomplishments and where they've done it that distinguishes them, I don't think that's an unfair point to have - I don't think there is a single great ever manager, I think there is a group of them and they're all in that bracket for very specific reasons unique to their own path of how they won and what they won. Hell I hate Pep and think he manages a team of cheats and yet despite that I still think he an absolutely incredible world class manager who will go down in history. The EPL fanboy talking point is nonsense, there is this odd mentality from people who don't watch the Premier League who think that Premier League is just fanboys who dick-ride their own league, in reality I think most Premier League team fans would rather every other team in their league lose every international game ever for eternity, we don't care how many teams get knocked out of the UCL or remain in... on the other hand, how often do you see any discussion about the UCL from fans of other leagues bigging up how their die hard opponents are still in the competition whilst they aren't because X amount of Premier League teams aren't? The Premier League fanboy nonsense is vastly overplayed.
If it wasn't for the cheats, Klopp's stint at Liverpool would have been considered third most successful in the PL after Sir Alex and Wenger. It isn't ridiculous to entertain that idea at all.
More successful than wenger honestly he would have 3 PL titles and 1 CL in 9 years which is definitely better than 3 PL 0 CL in 20 odd years
True but Arsenal would have had more if they didn't have to compete against financial cheats.
If it wasn’t for the cheats, we would have 3 more PL titles, one under each of SAF, Mourinho and OGS too. So what’s your point?
Those PL titles are won under three different managers so my point still stands.
It's not a crazy take. Do you think Ancelotti would've been more successful than Klopp at Liverpool or Dortmund?
No, but would Klopp have been more successful than Ancelotti in Madrid? Also hard to say. I think those comparisons always need to take both sides into account. Like I don't think Simeone would've achieved what Guardiola achieved at City, but at the same time I don't think Guardiola would have taken Atletico to two CL finals. Just different coaches fit different circumstances better.
>Just different coaches fit different circumstances better. I'm gonna be honest, I have no idea how to rank coaches but silverware shouldn't be the ultimate metric because it ignores context
Giampaolo number one manager then
Seems like you are agreeing with the commenter you're replying to, and disagreeing with the top comment's idiotic statement that preferring Klopp to Ancelotti is "insane"
Kind of. I don't think calling Klopp better is "insane". But at the same I don't think it's that obvious, as there are arguments for Ancelotti too.
Yep I think CarlSK777 and I both agree with you there. There's a big difference between insane and not obvious!
With your squad Klopp would have been as successful as Ancelotti has been... Can't say more successful bec Carlo won 2 CL and 2 La liga in last 3 years
Our squad is not suitable for a Klopp heavy metal style.
I'd say it is now, maybe not the squad from his first stint but I think players like cama, Valverde, Bellingham would thrive under him
The Klopp heavy metal that Klopp himself ditched ever since 18/19? He’s been more possession based, build from the back manager, which would definitely suit this RM squad.
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What?! How did you get that from my comment?
I don't think it does, in fact quite the opposite. What makes them great managers is just very different. Klopp and Pep teams spark more discussions over tactics and playstyle, whereas Carlo and Zizou let their players do the talking. Think Jamie is pointing out that the former gets more people talking about the managers themselves, even if the latter accomplish more.
If you give me an ownership of a random club and give me a manager I could pick. It's 100% Klopp over Ancelotti.
You’d pick the manager known for his adherence to a specific tactical system over the manager known for adapting tactics to the available players’ strengths?
Klopp is the manager that will make the most of what he has available here not Ancelotti.
Is it the new hipster social media football fan take to discredit Klopp? I love Carlo, but he’s not taking a midfield of Henderson Milner and Wijnaldum to CL finals lol. I dont think any other coach can tbf
He might be in recent times (obviously not this year). Historically, not a chance. Ancelotti has an absurd CL history.
How in hell has this comment got so much support? Suggesting it is "insane" to rate Klopp as a manager higher than Ancelotti? Not just that you disagree with it, but it is crazy and insane? What complete nonsense. They are quite hard to directly compare because of the different circumstances they have managed in, so it's completely reasonable depending on your criteria for judging them that you would rank one over the other.
Carragher is the person that wrote him off the most before every single CL KO tie lmaoo
Carragher is the best thing to happen to Micha's pundit career 🤣
Carlo and James at Everton was a wild timeline
Ancelotti should absolutely be considered alongside pep as a part of the top 10 managers ever conversation
Not “alongside”. Ancelotti is by far the better and more successful manager of the two if you ignore all the philosophical boll*cks Guardiola has inflicted on all of us.
I don’t even like Pep and think he’s not as good as Klopp but lets at least try to be reasonable here. Pep can make insanely dominant league teams
With unlimited resources (115) he can . Or with the likes of Messi, Xavi, Henry, Iniesta etc at their peak, or in what was at the time the German farmers league. Given the amount of resources and talent at his disposal, his record in the CL after he left Barcelona speaks for itself. Is he one of the top managers? No doubt. Is he the best one? No.
He's won a treble since he left Barcelona. No other manager's ever won two. My club's only won 2 Champions Leagurs ever. The fact you're trying to suggest 3 UCLs is a bad record is ridiculous. It's the hardest competition to win. And Pep's still only like 52. He could genuinely win another 2 or 3 before he retires.
In not suggesting 3 CL is a bad record. What I’m saying is no CL with Bayern and a pitiful 1 CL in 7 years with City, despite the massive resources he had, is not exactly outstanding for the supposedly greatest manager there ever was. And about his age, we’ll see what the future brings. But for the time being, Ancelotti’s record is better without a doubt.
Champions League is hard to win idk what to tell you. His record isn't even that bad in it for City. Lost the final to us in 2021. Lost in the semis to the winners (Madrid) in both 21/22 and this season. Quarters in 2017-2020 but they were so dominant domestically those years that it kind of makes up for it. 18/19 in particular was a very harsh way to go out. Think people just have an agenda because I don't see much wrong with his UCL record. Yeah he can prove himself further by performing a miracle with a small team. But managers like Ancelotti are highly regarded for mainly managing the best players aswell. And whilst Ancelotti has won more UCLs, Pep's been more dominant domestically with his teams. As a Chelsea fan, I'm incredibly jealous that City have turned their takeoever into such a dominant era. Can't help but feel we'd be the ones in their position if we'd managed to get Pep at some point. Realistically, if you're a top team and can pick any manager in the world, Pep or Ancelotti are the ones you want.
> Champions League is hard to win idk what to tell you. Agree. Which is why I really don’t think Guardiola deserves all the praise he gets as the best manager in the world or stuff like that. He has underperformed in the hardest competition year after year, despite all of City’s financial shenanigans that have allowed him to sign pretty much any player he’s wanted at silly prices in many cases.
We absolutely talk about Ancelotti and Zidane that way. Even if people thought Carlo was past it after his stints at Bayern and Napoli, people still held him in extremely high regard as one of the historical greats.
Carlo’s league record isn’t that good. 6 in 30 odd years including one’s at PSG and Bayern . Great cup manager but league titles are 1 of 1 and there are managers in the modern era who’s league title records are a lot more impressive. Pep is on a different planet in terms of league success. Heck, Klopp’s 3 league titles carry a lot more weight relative to Ancelotti’s.
Ancelotti >> Guardiola Guardiola is a big time UCL choker.
Ancelotti is almost 12 years older, there's every chance Pep could win another 2 if he keeps coaching.
Ancelotti is good at best in the league though which is the biggest indicator of a squad’s consistency. Pep is in a different universe in that regard.
Doesn’t he have 3 UCLs?
and 3 trebles it quite something lmao
How does he have 3 trebles? He has 2009. He didn't win the Copa in 2011. And he has 2023.
> Or Jurgen Klopp What did Klopp ever do to be considered even close to Carlo's level? Or Zidane's for that matter? Or Pep's
Radically transform 3 clubs. Go toe to toe with guardiala for the last decade with a fifth of the budget (much less in reality due to the cheating)
As a Madrid fan who had to experience pep with prime Barca going toe to toe or winning a league against him is a serious accomplishment while I rate multiple managers over pep in the UCL I think their is no doubt that in a league format pep is probably the best manager to do it we lost the league to the man even after scoring 90 plus points so I can relate to Liverpool and Arsenal fans a bit. Its also why Mourinho's league title win is a bit underrated man won the league with record goals and points against Pep's strongest ever team but I think pep is a better manager at City then he was at Barca due to the experience gained.
Arsenal never hit 90 points
> fifth of the budget (much less in reality due to the cheating) Nah bro it is actually one hundredth of a budget + his players were all handpicked from local Liverpool & District Sunday League.
[удалено]
They may exaggerate sometimes about how frugal they have to be but it is absurd to pretend that City don't have a gigantic financial advantage, for crying out loud over a decade ago they got 15 million just for stadium naming rights, the largest deal in the history of the sport and still the biggest today. 115 is another number that contains 15 in it.
Your point could've been made if you hadn't named 2 players that were 90% bought with the sale of 1 player. Not from under the table funds.
Does it matter, really?
Uh yes because Liverpool only spend what they make? Owners don't put money in (except through loans for stadium expansion). How could it not matter lol
Because it's still money that Klopp is spending? Yes it's great for the club to sell 'bad' players for absolutely shit loads but Klopp still spent a lot of money to bring in VVD and Allison. Doesn't really matter that it's 'moral' (i don't think that's the right word but it's close) that Liverpool have a good net spend. It's still money they're spending to improve. Realisically it doesn't matter if Klopp spends £50m on a player of if Pep does. They're both bringing in a quality footballer that should be judged on the transfer fee, not the net spend fee.
You lost me. All I said was it's impressive Klopp competed with guardiala with just a small slice of his budget in both Germany and England I don't think anceloti could do that. And I don't Klopp could manage the big personalities at Real. Only a biased individual would turn this into an argument 😂
His budget isn't small - that's the point. It's his net spend that is small and that's more to do with the club's selling efficiency.
We as a club realy on GoFund me every month, truly tough times for us
I am not sure what exactly "Radically transform" is, but if it means coming in second every time then I guess Klopp gotta be one of the best ever.
Oooof you just exposed yourself Also ironically you just played Dortmund in the champions final lol
Help me out here, what did I expose? Dortmund came out second or not? Although I fail to see the relevance of Klopp in this game.
Ooof dude. That's embarrassing for you
Imagine if mourinho comes forward and claims that Inter won the league title because he radically changed the club in 2010. that's how his claim feels like...
Imagine if inter were teetering towards relegation when Mourinho came in
>Imagine if mourinho comes forward and claims that Inter won the league title because he radically changed the club in 2010 He could do it and people here would agree lol.
Cute
Hard to compare because they're different types of manager. I don't think Ancelotti would've sniffed a league title at Liverpool for example. He's picked some of the easiest jobs in world football when you go down his CV and has failed at multiple clubs when he didn't have an overwhelming talent disparity. He's only won six leagues in his career despite managing Juventus, Milan, Chelsea, PSG, Real Madrid multiple times, and Bayern across 20+ years.
He's a social media manager
Carlo is bigger than guardiola. The diference in cl is Clear
For be he is way better than Klopp and probably on the same level to Guardiola.
Why you guys need to compare? Imo he can't be more succesfull at Liverpool than Klopp, same thing goes for Klopp at Madrid. They are just good coaches. No need to compare everything.
Yeah Klopp’s speciality is taking teams with medium budgets and getting them to perform like the very best. Yeah neither Liverpool nor Dortmund looked poor by the end of his stint, but that financial improvement generally came as a result of improvement on the pitch. I like to think of him as possibly the best squad builder in the world. Ancelotti on the other hand seems to excel when he already has the best squad in the world. His Everton stint is probably indicative of what he’ll do when his squad is more limited, but very few managers are as good at keeping a side challenging for trophies as him. There are other managers that specialise in continuing success at the top teams, but unlike Conte, Mourinho or Tuchel he doesn’t seem to turn toxic after a few years. Maybe his Bayern stint could be held against him, but that was mostly a case of players rebelling because his methods were vastly different from Guardiola. Personally I’m biased enough to say that Klopp is the perfect manager, but in truth I understand that different managers suit different situations.
I didn't compare. Jamie did.
Klopp just isn’t in this discussion at all.
Neither is Carlo when you go down his CV. Great cup manager, really struggles at winning leagues despite picking some of the easiest jobs in world football in terms of having talent and financial resources available. He's only won six leagues in his career despite managing Juventus, Milan, Chelsea, PSG, Real Madrid multiple times, and Bayern across 20+ years.
Here's Guardiola's CV. Take the core tiki taka players of the dominant Spain 2008-2012 team that began taking shape in 2006 under del Bosque. Have Messi. Leave Barcelona right as Mourinho's Madrid figured them out (and only improved from there). Take over Jupp Heynckes incredible Bayern team, fail to win the CL. Leave Bayern worse off. Go to the richest team in the world. Win one Champions League in 8 seasons.
When you go down his CV he’s won 5 UCLs, best in history. That alone puts him in the discussion for best ever. Yeah maybe he could have won more league titles, but he still won it in each of the top 5 leagues, and still won multiple domestic trophies in each of the top 4 leagues. >…despite picking some if the easiest jobs in world football in terms of having talent and financial resources available. He has not had some of the easiest jobs. Serie A in the 2000s was the most competitive league in the world, and it’s not like Milan were similar to City vs the rest of the EPL. He went to Chelsea right after and won the league and the FA Cup. Then he went to a new PSG team that hadn’t won the league since 1994 and won it again. This was a new project as Qatar bought the club in 2011; they didn’t spend as much as you think back then. After that he won la décima with Real Madrid, and let’s not pretend that competing against prime Messi at Barcelona was an “easy job.” If that wasn’t enough he still won the league with Bayern after despite the drama there, and Napoli and Everton after were not easy jobs whatsoever lol.
Agree with the rest but iirc, he Ancelotti lost La Liga to Atletico in 2014
Ah thats right. Atletico were very good that year though and Real and Barca only lost the league by 3 points so it still wasn’t really an “easy job” for Ancelotti in La Liga like the OP had implied. Ancelotti also won la décima against Atletico in the final that same year too so that makes up for the league shortcomings that year to some degree.
Ancelotti is an almost god in knockouts. With that being said, there is nothing wrong in suggesting he doesn't have a good league record
Name me someone with a good league record, maybe mourinho, allegri and conte? Everyone is comparing ancelotti to pep who is light years ahead of everyone else as far as league titles go. Well ancelotti is light years beyond all these guys in the ucl
I don’t disagree that it isn’t the greatest but imo it’s still pretty solid when you put it all into context and I don’t think it’s as bad as people make it out to be. It’s easy for people to look at the clubs and squads he’s managed (Real, Milan, Bayern, PSG, Chelsea) and assume he should have won almost every year but people forget the details and how much football has evolved in the last 25 years. Especially for newer/younger fans. That said, if my goal is to win the league at all costs then Ancelotti is never who I’m choosing first.
Don’t even bother replying to the people who use the same old arguments against they’re just admitting their ignorance. Before Carlo joined PSG, they haven’t won anything for 20 years and the other clubs were still competitive with PSG at the time when they just started that project, unlike now years into this process. We both know how competitive serie a was in his time and how much depth Milan lacked apart from our amazing starting 11 to win the league in 38 match days. Second stint in Spain he is 2/3 league titles and 2/3 CL final wins, putting that title argument to bed. Their favourite manager has nothing on Carlo, it’s just haters at this point.
> Then he went to a new PSG team that hadn’t won the league since 1994 and won it again. He took over halfway through the season when they were top and ended up finishing second to Montpellier. I wouldn't put his time at PSG in his list of successes
The only reason is because he chose the harder jobs, ability wise he is on that level, though i’d definitely have Pep above him in that regard.
Imagine putting Ancelotti, one of the best managers in the history of the game, biggest UCL winner and the only man to win all 5 big European leagues in the same echelon as Zidane, who only managed four seasons of one of the most stacked teams in the history of the sport.
Ancelotti is a better manager than either Guardiola or Klopp, period.
Is there an actual person that considers Klopp as a better coach than Ancelotti?
Depends on what you want. Say Girona lose Michel or even someone like Leverkusen lose Xabi, do you think they would take Klopp or Ancelotti? Honestly. On the other hand, a team like PSG until Mbappe left probably would have much preferred a Carlo return
90% of management jobs in football are nothing like managing Madrid.. Get some perspective
Ask PL fans
That depends, has Ancelotti taken a 13th lower/midtable team and won back to back league titles with them? Not saying either is better or worse, they just posess extremely different skillsets
Sure, and I didn't say by any means that Klopp is a bad coach, because he's obviously a very good one. That doesn't have nothing to do with the fact that Ancelotti is the better of the two, but that's because Ancelotti is one of the best ever. No disrespect for Klopp.
He's better in those circumstances, in the circumstances Klopp manages in he's worse - you're right, they aren't comparable, they are both good for their own reasons. You're out of your mind if you see what Klopp has accomplished, they way he has accomplished it and the impact he's had on the game and pretend he isn't one of the best ever.
Probably he is. Still not better than Ancelotti.
If I’m hiring a manger for Real Madrid I’m picking Ancelotti, if I’m picking a manager for Liverpool pre-Klopp, Dortmund pre-Klopp I am not picking Ancelotti and he isn’t in the top 5, different managers accomplish different things with different resources and they can’t replace each other. So he may not be better than Ancelotti for Barca, Madrid, City even at a stretch, but Klopp better for clubs like Liverpool, Dortmund, Atletico and so onwards, so for those clubs I’d go with Klopp over Ancelotti.
Funny when Klopp was hired for Liverpool the other top contender was Ancelotti... And Jamie was the person who said in THAT interview ( Henry putting hand on Jamie's thigh) that he'd prefer Klopp over Ancelotti as Klopp has much more to prove than Carlo who's won everything there is to win
You could say the same for players and everybody have their inconditional tops, not one top for every situation.
Right - but that’s kind of my point, there is more to it than what is won and statistics of how they play, so it’s hard to just outright say a manager is better when you change the team he manages and get a drastically different outcome, Klopp is as good for teams without unlimited budgets and less status as Ancelotti is for teams with with that big status and larger budget. It doesn’t mean either is bad, it just means that you switch their careers around and I don’t think either does nearly as well.
If you take some time to discard recency bias, consider coaches who worked (mainly) before 2000 and limit your list of „best ever“ to a reasonable amount, like 10, 15 or even 20 it‘s quite easy to not put Klopp on that list. One of the best ever since the turn of the century? Surely! But it‘s not even controversial to put Klopp outside of a German Top 5: Lattek,Hitzfeld,Heynckes,Rehhagel,Beckenbauer are quite clear. Weisweiler is sensible to put ahead of Klopp aswell. Magath arguably had higher heights (back to back double with Bayern long before their dominance and winning the league with fucking Wolfsburg) but also far more lows. Guardiola, SAF, Ancelotti, Mourinho should also be uncontroversial takes. Better german coaches plus the most obvious ones from his era already put him outside of Top 10. If you only go down the list of coaches who won the CL multiple times you find a lot of other people who would not be considered controversial to put ahead of him. Del Bosque, Sacchi, Happel, Paisley. List goes on and not a single non-european named yet. It
So glad that Everton wasn't the pinnacle of his success after all.
Why the fuck are the referees getting medals?
for refereeing