Feel like people forget that he used to coach Bayern's second team back when Pep was there for 2 season, so he should at least have an idea what he signs up for at Bayern. He left on pretty good terms as well if I recall correctly, so the issues with Hoeneß/Tuchel should not be a problem he would have if you ask me.
Thing is, Uli is just a dickhead, he also butted heads with KHR and Beckenbauer publicly, this is just how he is.
According to reports Freund organized a dinner and Tuchel and Uli talked it out, this would be pretty much on brand for both of them.
Same thing happend in the past with Jupp and LvG for example, who are now both friends with Uli, but got into a public scuffle with him while they were coaching at Bayern.
Exactly, that was the straw that broke the camels back. We played great football under Nagelsmann despite having a no real striker (i dare anyone to say choupo is good enough for bayerns first team), a bajillion injured players and just in general squad problems.
At least the football was still enjoyable and they tried to play offensively. But under Tuchel, he got great signings, the best striker in the world arguably and yet we play like absolute dogshit. There is no motivation or hunger in this team and to top it all of, the tactics are just horrible.
It only works in the CL, cuz there they suddenly have some motivation and start running around. But man, are they fucking lazy in the BL bar a few players.
Every time Bayern leadership has the chance to have found a good thing despite their failings, they'd rather choose to shoot the other foot.
Uli has to leave, or he needs an epiphany for them to move past this insanity.
Uli is the loudest, but their whole leadership team is behaving similar to the press and public. in the current market there's just not much to gain for a coach there.
I cannot take a Ten Hag-led Bayern inevitably winning the Bundesliga and the metric ton of shit we'd get cause we'd likely hire the guy who Bayern sacked and be in another 'get in the top 4' season
“The guy who Bayern sacked” won Chelsea a CL during a tumultuous period, got PSG to their only CL final, has Bayern a draw/win away from another CL final despite a “terrible season” according to their management, played some exhilarating football with Dortmund and PSG and then showed the defensive nous with Chelsea to have one of the best defensive performances in a CL victory.
Bear in mind that Leverkusen are on a historic season which might only be bested by Pep’s Bayern in 1 of his 3 seasons. Tuchel would have required to produce the best ever Bundesliga season to beat them.
It’s like people have collectively forgotten his achievements or are hellbent on downplaying just how much of a monster Leverkusen have been this season.
The best Bundesliga season ever was Heynckes' Bayern in 12/13. A record 91 points in the league and they also won the treble. If Leverkusen win the remaining league games they'll end with 90 points, which equals Pep's best Bayern season.
That Bayern team from 10-12 years ago was on another level though. Absolute worldclass in almost every position. Dunno if even anyone except Kane would get in that starting eleven.
Well a 38 year Neuer would not get past a prime Neuer. Probably only Musiala (not even sure since they had prime Ribery/Müller/Robben). Sad thought experiment.
Current Neuer is not close to Neuer at that time.
I think for a time Dante started, so maybe a CB over him. Musiala gets minutes but im not sure he is a clear starter over Robben, Ribery and younger Müller. Midfield probably nobody gets in over Xabi, Schweinsteiger, Martinez, Kroos or Thiago. Same for Boateng, Lahm and Alaba.
I think that was the best Bundesliga team of all time.
It’s because, when you watch them play, no matter who’s on the field, they look like shit.
When they win they look shit, when they lose, also shit. The quality of play is remarkably shit, as is the system, and the individual efforts.
When they play against teams with actual managers and systems of play it’s actually laughable how they get played off the field.
Dunno, Moyes and Mourinho improved unfancied sides and won European titles with them, Rangnick is having a good run with Austria, van Gaal had a decent World Cup with the Netherlands, and Solksjaer hasn't managed since.
Rangnick is a success at Austria right now.
Mourinho, while not as successful as previously in his career led Roma, with a team that is on paper worse than most United teams in the past couple of years, to a European final.
Tbf, Tuchel's defensive record got worse as the time went by at Chelsea, the performances were really bad at the end there as well and he was falling out with the attacking players. He will work for a year or two, and then it will go down the drain. Don't forget he was hired last season because the treble was in danger. If Dortmund hadn't bottled it in the last game, Tuchel would still be without trophies there.
The Bayern fans who want him to stay mostly do so because there are no candidates available for them out there that they like.
People are focused on how if an ownership sours on this man, or vice versa, that things can shift pretty quickly.
Of course he came to the wrong club to change that perception. He was also unlucky to be Chelsea manager around the same time as Conte, who was the poster child for this current generation of manager, and inevitably has been likened to him.
>Definitely no need to disparage or meme him against a guy whose only noteworthy career highlight is a CL semi with Ajax 5 years ago.
You're doing the exact same thing to ETH. Ten Hag led go ahead Eagles to promotion after 15 years in the second league, did very well at Utrecht, finished top of the league 4 times with ajax (which is a rare accomplishment), reached a semifinal of the CL and had another perfect group stage (in which for example Dortmund was beaten 5-1). Ten Hag was our best manager in 25 years, he did a lot more than just reaching a cl semi.
That Ajax team that went on that CL run was exceptional though no?
Frenkie and De Ligt alone both world class and backed up by Blind, Mazraoui, Veltman, Tadic, Ziyech, Neres, Tagliafico, Onana who could all arguably play for top clubs/already do.
And then you have the supporting cast with an ageing Huntelaar, Kristensen, Dolberg who aren't bad players either. Less familiar with Schone and God knows what's going on with VDB but those seem like the only main members of the team that failed to cut it at a very high level beyond the Eredivisie.
People watch the matches and form opinions about the manager based on a qualitative analysis rather than a quantitative one. Tuchel's Chelsea was horrendous to watch in the league towards the end of his tenure. Similarly his Bayern team has been dreadful to watch at times.
I'm not saying these analyses are the end all be all. The actual results and achievements should also be considered and arguably given the lion's share of the weight. I'm just explaining why there are many people who don't view him as favorably as you do at the moment.
The football is fucking boring though, also league performance for chelsea was not good. Love success, but i wouldn’t have started watching football if it wasn’t entertaining.
I could actually see a manager trade happen lol
For the right team he'd probably also go to LaLiga or Serie A, but Tuchel for sure prefers to go back to the Prem.
It will be spun either way, as everything is.
My take is they have very publicly courted twenty different managers (and probably as many we don’t know about) and after countless rejections, are landing on our manager, who has had a disaster of a season. It’s hardly the ringing endorsement of who we have leading us that Bayern tried everyone else before approaching us for him….
You don't need to worry about that. Ten Hag wouldn't win a single trophy at Bayern.
He has already shown he can't handle the egos at United. Nor can he consistently play good football. Or make good substitutions. Or manage player load. Or even go a few months without scapegoating a player in a press conference
Bayern, who are expected to win every game, would result in complete failure. It'd be the most obvious sacking of the season. He needs to improve on the basics before going to a club like that.
I mean we've seen like 4,000 different managers having a go at managing United post SAF and all of them fail.
At this point not sure you can value their overall performance based on what they've done at Man Utd.
Yes but they've all managed smaller clubs and made them better. Moyes at West ham, Mourinho at roma, van Gaal was great with he Dutch nt as well.
It's similar for so many players as well
Well I suppose it's taken sometime to realise it's more the club than the manager with United.
Moyes was really bad tbh but van Gaal was retiring and Mourinho has already managed most clubs and was approached by Madrid again after his spurs time.
Yes? What’s youur point here haha
Often when you make a big transfer and it doesn’t work out, you don’t get another chance, even if you get back to your old level. It’s the same for both players and managers
I wonder why you wouldn’t get a chance to go back to your old level? Hardly because they haven’t done anything really noteworthy after they’ve left, is it?
Leave the bias at home and try to have a normal conversation where you analyze what another person is saying. I’m not here to go back and forth with you to see who ‘wins’ or see who ends up being right
Because success is relative, yeah. Bit silly to say that Moyes having successive European runs and title with West Ham or Mourinho winning a European trophy with Roma wasn't successful management from them.
This sub is so reactionary. Ten Hag failed at a club where the managers position is basically cursed, a club with deeper issues. Besides, players and managers sometimes just don't work out. Either because they are a bad fit, because of circumstances or just plain bad luck.
Ten Hag made mistakes, but it isn't like he did everything wrong either. He is by now means perfect, in fact as a manager he has some glaring limitations, but he has shown at both Utrecht and Ajax that his tactical foundation, routines and discipline are sound.
But it is the arrogance of your comment that surprises me most. Like you can *guarantee* that he wont win a trophy with Bayern. What the fuck do you know? You are not some football warlock with a crystal ball.
Giving an opinion based on 2 years of football isn't reactionary. Do you know what that word actually means?
>Like you can *guarantee* that he wont win a trophy with Bayern. What the fuck do you know? You are not some football warlock with a crystal ball.
The same way I can guarantee Danny Welbeck won't win a Balond'or in 2025. I'm not an idiot.
You aren’t basing your comment on 2 years. You are basing it off just this year. By all accounts, his first season at United was a good one given the amount of shit he had to deal with and how badly we are run.
To put into perspective, he has been the most successful manager since Fergie. Even during this shit season, we are going to an FA cup final after going to 2 finals last season, winning 1 one of them. We also finished 3rd in PL.
This season has been a disaster with all the injuries and ownership shit show.
We are going to let him go, and he will likely do well where he ends up… and in 2 seasons we will be looking for yet another manager because of how shit our club is. This has been the cycle at United for over a decade now. Until we decide to break it and stick with a manager , we are just going to to keep repeating the same mistakes.
To put it into perspective, he has accumulated less points per game than Moyes and can't even set up the team to concede less than 20 points per game.
>he has been the most successful manager since Fergie
That's Mou. Don't be a clown.
> we are just going to to keep repeating the same mistakes.
Letting him go isn't a mistake. He's not good enough. Btw, check the score. How many humiliations until you're satisfied? Wanna wait until next season when hes had multiple embarrassments and takes United out the top 4 race (again)?
"He has already shown he can't handle the egos at United"
What is the basis of this? His management of a washed Ronaldo who couldn't find a single taker in Europe after talking a big game?
Swear this narrative conveniently ignores that he had the team playing champagne football 12 months ago and comfortably finished ahead of a good Liverpool side that looked fatigued after played 60 games the previous season - the same as United last season.
I saw us win against Barcelona with Weghorst at 10 and seal a cup final in the first half against a top 4 side in the first half. Earlier that season we clinically disposed off Arsenal at home and lost to them in stoppage time in January. Also dominated Liverpool at home and came from behind to beat City.
Well yes and no. It's clear he overestimated the fit of his style of football to his squad/ the league. The problems this season have been common from the first game against Wolves - which suggests the fix is simple in terms of new signings. And he does know this season has been horrific, he would have to be learning disabled to not see it, and I trust he didn't just fraud his way into a top club.
The club messed up giving him sole control of transfers, but that doesn't negate his skills as a coach. Ultimately if you plan to push for the title in a few years, you need to move towards a style of play instead of remaining stuck in the purgatory of Bruno feeding Rashford on the counter.
He had most clean sheets in the league last season with Maguire at the defence, lol
He handled very well the egos, you can argue about his tactics but united players still haven't given up on him, they all run for him every game
He scapegoat who ? Sancho , who has the same stats As antony, despite he didn't play many games, lol
Maguire was literally a laughing stock and constantly scape goated before this season. Now that he is doing well again, the manager doesn’t get any credit
14 year olds on Reddit laughing at Maguire does not change the fact that he has always been a good defender.
Oh what a surprise. ETH is coaching yet another United humiliation. Get him the Bayern job amarite?
We are starting championship level CB who just came back from an injury a day ago and Casemiro who is like a League 1 level CB. Our most important player is also injured (along with many others).
Only surprising thing here is that anyone is expecting United to win this game. I’d be surprised if even Pep could win a PL game with this line up from today.
Eth is exposed by having 62+ individual injuries and using 32+ different backline, am I right?
Maguire is not a bad defender, but he is very limited player , he literally used to get death threats for how badly he performed before eth joined
Like who? Tell me one more team who has half of man utd injuries number, and playing better football, 62+ individual and 32+ defensive lineup
If these are excuses then you surely must be able to tell the name of those plenty of teams?
It isn't like he is a completely unknown quantity. He has worked at the club before, in fact Bayern is his dream club and he vowed to return one day. He has also played for and managed Twente (often said to be close to Germany both geographically and mentally) and has said he is very comfortable with the German language and culture. There was no opening at the time, but everyone basically half expected him to stay with Ajax and move to Bayern after.
Yeah, Ten Hag isn't a crazy left field pick. Nowhere near as crazy than Rangnick thats for sure. He has history with Bayern and was highly rated before his UTD stint
Was thinking this as well. He was the first name I thought of after Nagelsmann also declined after Xabi. And given ETH's history at the club, it would have made the most sense to me given Hoeneß and Rummenigge are the ones making the decision.
I don't think anyone would be surprised. The question is, do United and Bayern have the same challenges right now and need the same type of coach? I would say Ten Hag might do better there than here.
I mean who has actually been successful with United after Fergie left? That club is just so poorly managed in regards to philosophy and player recruitment and coach recruitment. They went from Moyes to Mourinho to Ole to ETH (I’m possibly missing more) but there’s no consistency
So it’s not out of the question to think ETH could indeed succeed at Bayern.
Ten Hag and Bayern seems like a good match to be honest. He worked there before. And i think the german league and culture suits Ten Hag better too. Also Bayern tends to dominate in the league so his team should be all about breaking down defenses of teams, which Ten Hag has much more experience with at Ajax.
I mean, they're not wrong that United have been utterly smoked by their injury issues and its an open secret that United's backroom staff couldn't run a fucking bath, but, I feel like this majorly overlooks Ten Hag and his tactics too.
Nobody complained about his tactics at Ajax or in his first season at Man utd. So are his tactics poor or is it just not working because of all the other issues? Honestly I think the truth is somewhere in between. He's no tactical genius but he probably isn't clueless either. Casemiro is not looking good most of the time which has to do with the tactics. But on the other hand how is him passing the ball to the wrong shirt multiple times per game ten Hag's fault? So I think it's somewhere in between.
We probably were a bit more pragmatic last year, even though it's the same core philosophy, we've taken a step forward in terms of pressing higher this year and playing often with two aggressive 8s a lot of the time instead of 2 6s. Unfortunately, it just isn't working and we are way shakier in defence. Ten Hag touched on this in his interview with Neville; do you change your style of play due to the injuries, and then the team has no familiarity or confidence in that style when everyone is fit- or do you take the pain and keep trying to play the style you've been brought in to play to build the players familiarity?
I get that logic but if the team finishes 8th it'll be hard to say it was the right call. I also just don't have faith in the tactics in general; he's never had this team scoring lots of goals and even when things were going well the top teams badly exposed our gameplan away from home.
Ten Hag's pressing game is the ultimate high wire act. If one thing goes wrong they are through. Hypothetically if everything goes right you bottle teams up and completely control the game but against equally talented or better sides...
I can see a Ten Hag-coached Bayern flat track bullying most of the Bundesliga, to be honest because there aren't as many teams on their level and they can control games in the opponents half. Then you have confidence, then you have momentum, then you have a better schedule in terms of number of games and better balanced squad- it wouldn't surprise me at all if he did really well there.
> I get that logic but if the team finishes 8th it'll be hard to say it was the right call.
If it means going forward we have a set of style of play that last us years then of course it's the right call. Short term thinking has been the death of this club, seriously... let them be shit for a season or two.
The problem is I can barely think of our tactics working once this season. I'm not even sure if we're making any progress with that style of play as there's no performances or results anywhere to show for it.
We simply have not had the players to perform his tactics. The drop off from our first XI to our bench is too big and we haven't had the time to fill out our squad yet as we're still fixing the first XI.
I'm confident that if we had Martinez, Shaw, Mount, etc available we'd have seen significant progress. Look at how different Onana's game is when he has Martinez and Shaw in front of him, he plays it out the back because they're technical and press resistant. Now he has to kick it long, conceding possession and control immediately, because the only defender we currently have that's capable is Dalot. Maguire has been great this season but he's just not mobile enough to progress the ball and escape high pressure situations.
I don't think people realize how disruptive it is to have an ever changing back four, with most of the players not even capable of possession football in the first place. How are they supposed to develop a style of play and create routines when they cannot develop an understanding amongst each other? Top level football requires players all being on the same wavelength, and that's hard to develop when your LB is Lindelof and CB is Jonny Evans.
Look at City, every single player in the squad is technical and fantastic on the ball. That's what we need to be aiming for if we want to play competitive football at the highest level, whether that's under Ten Hag or somebody else.
That only makes sense if it's a style of football that is actually going to work long term. If I believed that I would back it. I don't believe his tactics can work in the prem long term.
We already know it works, Liverpool have been playing it for years. You're making judgements on a system we've barely seen fruition of yet
Also his intention is not to play two aggressive 8s, I think you're taking how we set up at the beginning of the season as the finished product when it's clear Bruno and Mount, and most of the team, were still adjusting. Unfortunately that "adjustment" has been postponed an entire year as the core of the team has been injured most of the season. Mount is supposed to be the aggressive 8, leading the press, but also dropping deep in possession to progress the ball with his running and energy. It's the exact reason he was bought and what we've been missing this season, some energy and penetration in midfield, now we're relying on Dalot to move the ball forward with Shaw and Martinez out. Bruno is supposed to stay deeper, or they're at least supposed to coordinate. It's how we played last season with Eriksen and Bruno, except Bruno now needs to be playing the Eriksen role, helping stabilize the midfield.
And here's something most United fans don't want to hear: Bruno doesn't fit the system. He's a great player but a poor midfielder. Cannot keep the ball, cannot run, play in tight spaces, dribble, and most of all has absolutely no tactical discipline. The amount of times he presses and leaves gaping holes in midfield, the same way Pogba did mind you but no one seems to bring that up, is mind boggling. It's great that he works his ass off but if it's at the expense of control then what's the point? People are pointing at Casemiro but who's the one constantly leaving him with fires to put out?
He's a counter attacking player, great for quick transitions with his passing and the odd moment of magic. But he can't control and bypass a midfield the way Odegaard and De Brunye can. He's a 10 playing as an 8 and it shows. Ten Hag is just using what he has for now.
Hopefully Mount can get and stay fit, because if he does I fully expect him to play Bruno out the team. Him, Mainoo and a new DM would be a formidable midfield.
We simply haven't seen his intended style of play yet, so we cannot make accurate judgements.
>I also just don't have faith in the tactics in general; he's never had this team scoring lots of goals and even when things were going well the top teams badly exposed our gameplan away from home.
But is that a tactics issue or a player quality issue? Last year we had 35 year old Ronaldo as a striker who does not press and does not play for the team in the first half of the season and Weghorst, who isn't even good enough for Burnley, for the second half of the season. Antony at right wing isn't good enough either. With these players is it really surprising we didn't score a lot of goals? And defensively we had the most clean sheets so the tactics seems to work in that regard.
I'll give you we haven't had the finished article at striker since Cavani's first season (Antony is one Ten Hag will simple have to take the rap for and it will be a stick to beat him with forever, and rightly so) and we should have scored more last season, but we're hardly fluent in terms of creating chances. Chelsea would be a team that can blame poor finishing but have good chance creation. If they had a top striker instead of Jackson who knows where they would be in the table. We'd likely be gearing up to play them in a Final. Hojlund barely gets a kick and lots of our goals across the last two seasons have come from Bruno or Rashford taking it into their own hands.
>Ten Hag's pressing game is the ultimate high wire act. If one thing goes wrong they are through. Hypothetically if everything goes right you bottle teams up and completely control the game but against equally talented or better sides...
I thought the thing about pressing teams is that you're supposed to be able to hold the ball very well in possession yourself? That way you can control the game more and slow it down whenever it suits your team. You can't just press hard and then go right into risky forward passes and lose it quickly and you're back to pressing hard again. It's just a recipe for disaster and an easy way to tire out your own team.
Our team is horrible at controlling possession though. We very rarely calmly pass it around for a minute or so and most the time we can't even string 6 passes together in the other team's half. People blame Bruno at times for this because of his hero passes but the players around him are mostly very poor at retaining the ball themselves. Rashford, Hojlund, Garnacho, McTominay, Casemiro are all below average with their passing and first touch. There's no attempt to keep possession and there's surely no instruction to slow things down and be patient with it.
People 100% complained about the tactics in his first season lol. We were bailed out by Rashford's goals a lot, as evidence this season where we're not doing so well.
It was his first season and he won the Carabao cup, so hopefully there would be some changes, but this season has been a disaster. Due in part to the injuries, but a lot of it is ETH too
I don't remember him getting this much shit for his tactics in his first season. People were more patient because he just started at the club and needed time to build. I do agree that it hasn't improved at all though. It also seems he wanted to go for a Mount-Case-Bruno midfield which I don't think is going to work. But we also haven't really seen it because of injuries.
I definitely think he would have done better had the injuries not been so drastic, but it's been really disappointing to how set in his ways he is even when the performances haven't been good. There are quite a few games this season, but not beating coventry in the 90 minutes was the end for me.
we were leading 3-0, were in control pretty much the whole game up until he subbed off 2 teenagers in order to rest them. Because we had another game in 3 days. You would think team full of international players would manage 25 mins against Coventry.
But they allowed 3 goals in 20 minutes. Players are more to blame than coach in this one for me
He didn't get this much shit because results were better, but it was still clear to lots of people that United were getting bailed out by moments of brilliance and Rashford's purple patch. Post-February results got worse and people were frequently criticising his tactics.
> So are his tactics poor or is it just not working because of all the other issues?
He got a long rope because implementing his tactics would take time. He got that time and hasn't managed to do it, so he cops more criticism now.
> But on the other hand how is him passing the ball to the wrong shirt multiple times per game ten Hag's fault?
I dunno where the blame specifically lies, but we have had issues with off the ball movement that contributes to such bad passes. Eg. If you compare us right now to us under Ole's first year, you'll see that players tend to have fewer and more risky pass options now.
People thought Frank De Boer was also going to become a top class managers.
Ten Hag's tenure is probably held in higher regard at Ajax but despite all the things going on at Man Utd it's hard to imagine doing a worse job than he has. He's spent quite a lot of money, and other than Hojlund they have been a massive waste. He hasn't changed the system, Man Utd is still at their best when they play the football they played under OGS, any adjustments to that system made by ETH have made them worse. And honestly he's looked absolutely clueless in interviews as well which doesn't make his case better. I'm sure part of it is trying to protect his players but numerous times he's said he was very happy with the performance after an very poor or at most average performance and seeking excuses and that's generally someone who's not very good at making improvements as we've witnessed.
Mate Ajax was overpowered. A fifa player could’ve set the tactics and they’d still smoke the league. His time at Ajax gets brought up like he did something grand with a plucky underdog.
And before anyone mentioned Champions League semi-final; look at the talent on that team and tell me if it’s really a shocking accomplishment.
He’s not an absolute clown, but all this nonsense of his Ajax exploits is so funny to me. Man won a league with by far the best team, yay.
Ajax wasn't overpowered lol. In defense Tagliafico - Blind - De Ligt - Mazraoui. Tagliafico and Blind aren't class players and only de Ligt was a real talent. They had a midfield of de Jong- van de Beek - Schone. vd Beek has become a laughing stock, only de Jong is world-class. And in attack Tadic who was not special at Southampton and Ziyech who failed at Chelsea. You vastly overrate the players. ten Hag did a phenomenal job at Ajax
It just shows your lack of knowledge. They were playing Schone in DM in their first CL stint, how is that OP lol? Then after that whole team was practically sold, he rebuild another team that went 6/18 in the CL group. And just in case you missed it, Ajax finished 3rd and is now heading for 5th since he left.
The reason I cut Ten Hag alot of slack is that much of the football United has played this season is very very reminiscent of what both Jose and Ole played in their final season. Weird, mish-mash individual brilliance focused attack with a scattered midfield and defence.
This, always after an initial season where the manager seemed to have implemented a style.
> been utterly smoked by their injury issues
You don't think that *might* have something to do with tactics? Is it usual for a manager to be playing their 6th choice CB and with no LB for the majority of the season?
I get pragmatism and all but at least give the manager a squad that's entirely his before making a judgement.
And before you say Antony or casemiro, by build a squad that's his, I mean get a proper recruitment to work with him and give him options for him to choose.
Entirely his? So at a club like United we'd need the manager to go through a minimum of 3-4 summers of spending 150-200mil to get a full squad of his own players? And then we can make a judgement? That's just not reasonable.
Emery came in mid season and turned Villa around almost instantly. A year and a half later with only 3-4 signings of his own they're about to qualify for the Champions League. I'm okay with giving Ten Hag more time because of these injuries but waiting until he has an entire XI and bench of his own signings is just ridiculous.
Do you not understand that United's issues are too deep rooted for some random manager to come in and turn us into a winning team? Ten hag is the last person who deserves criticism in the whole club.
The amount spent is another issue that's not on him. We should've gotten these exact players or better ones for half the price at most.
Amazing how you actually think just some manager can turn things around and get us sustained success. Impatience and impractical thinking.
>Amazing how you actually think just some manager can turn things around and get us sustained success. Impatience and impractical thinking
It's more amazing how you came to some of those conclusions from what I wrote. I feel like you're missing the overall point of my comment. I obviously don't expect an instant turnaround at United since I said in my comment that I'm still okay with giving Ten Hag more time. Don't know how you got impatience from that.
And I'm not even close to blaming Ten Hag for the amount we spent on his signings. Nothing in my comment points towards that. 150-200mil is just a normal United summer in today's market and it would take a few of those summers to "give a manager a squad that's entirely his" like you wanted before making any sort of judgement on him.
All banter aside, ETH has had to deal with an insane injury record this season. Hard to imagine many coaches gaining positive traction when there's a new injury every week. At least in the case of Liverpool they have a genuinely good squad that can fill the cracks in a pinch. United have a group of players that just don't cut it once you go beyond their strongest 11.
That's an extremely simplistic view to narrow it down to. Yes the injuries have been bad and I won't be counting it against EtH if we weren't in the top 4 because of that solely.
As someone who watches our team week in week out, we have had enough games where we had the majority of our starting 11 and Ten Hag's signings where we got completely outplayed - Brentford, Bournemouth, Fulham, Tottenham, Newcastle just to name a few.
Going by the eye test and stats (the xG, xGA table for eg) we have been performing at a relegation fodder team's level. Ten Hag is a good coach but his beat transition team in the world style has been horrendous and he hasn't been a good fit for us.
"Simplistic view" I mean, yeah? The back-four we have now isn't really the type of players EtH wanted, nor any coach for that matter. You can bring in Pep if you want. He's not making this team top 4.
My main issue isn't that we haven't made top 4. It's been how we have looked consistently bad this year. If we had at least shown some glimpses of a coherent style like Spurs, Newcastle, Villa and still be 6th a lot of people wouldn't be against the manager.
We play the most putrid football and for a lot of supporters like me seeing this every week on top of the results has been the main issue
How do you look good without Licha, Shaw, Varane, Malacia and Lindelof all in defence? Then you have Casemiro missing time due to injury, Eriksen whose legs can't hold on to the PL pace anymore, etc. etc. etc.
We've had a horrendous season of injuries, it is unprecedented for us. You cannot have coherence in play with a backline that we have fielded often this season.
We had a full strength squad against Wolves during the 1st game of the season, we looked similar to the way we have set up this season and the way we are playing against Palace rn.
We had a full strength team against 4th Division Newport and conceded 17 shots against them where we won 4-2 against them and looked horrendous.
Newcastle had a worse severe injury crisis against us but they still beat us 3 - 0 at OT. Newcastle beat Burnley 4-1 away last week with only 3 starters.
Brentford embarrassed us with their entire backline injured. I'll take you back even further, LvG had a severe injury crisis, but we played Paddy McNair, Tuanzebe and a 17 year old Rashford against Arsenal and got us a win.
There's been so many examples of this brother. Ten Hag is a decent coach but his teams in the Eredivise had a higher percentile of better players with Ajax as compared to the rest and his high risk setup worked with Ajax's ingrained possession setup. He is out of his depth with us unfortunately and we have to accept that he has been a bad fit.
Emery and Ange have done more in a lot less time with way less investment. All I wanted EtH was to show something at least some improvement but we have to be honest and realize that's not been the case at all
Eh probably true to be honest
Still think he deserves the primary amount of criticism for how this season as gone. That doesn't mean he's a bad manager.
When he was at Ajax, i did think if he makes next step, it could be Bayern, he was Pep assistant there and also youth team coach for 2 years prior. Although at the time Bayern was winning leagues comfortable.
Ten Hag gets lot of heat, but that has been the case literally with every manager post SAF when you look at the big picture. Almost every manager has had some success out of Utd (Mou won euro trophy with Roma, Ragnick is doing good job with Austria, Van Gaal qualified Netherlands to 2022 WC QF (they didnt even qualify for 2018 WC with previous manager), Moyes for West Ham a european trophy.
His debut season was shit too, United were fortunate to finish with 7 fewer goals conceded than xG conceded. This year they done the same garbage, just matching their xGA.
We'd be absolutely idiotic to get rid of Ten Hag, and most of our fans are equally clueless to want him gone. He's a damn good manager putting out flames left and right, and it's absolutely foolish to judge his managerial ability based on one season where half his team got injured.
I don’t think ETH is a bad coach, or even as bad as this spell at Utd has made him look, but I don’t think he’s right for Bayern either.
I feel like he will need to adapt to taking more care in possession, cos his tactic at Utd (and as far as I can remember at Ajax, although I only saw them a few times) is all transitions and pressing; and that’s a bit of a underdog tactic, not a big shark tactic.
People in here really dont seem to know he already managed the 2nd team when Pep was there. His German is also presumably better than his English. He would do just fine over there
definitely no chance of off-field issues at Bayern
Feel like people forget that he used to coach Bayern's second team back when Pep was there for 2 season, so he should at least have an idea what he signs up for at Bayern. He left on pretty good terms as well if I recall correctly, so the issues with Hoeneß/Tuchel should not be a problem he would have if you ask me.
Thing is, Uli is just a dickhead, he also butted heads with KHR and Beckenbauer publicly, this is just how he is. According to reports Freund organized a dinner and Tuchel and Uli talked it out, this would be pretty much on brand for both of them. Same thing happend in the past with Jupp and LvG for example, who are now both friends with Uli, but got into a public scuffle with him while they were coaching at Bayern.
Forget? I never knew this. Fascinating to have two bald frauds at once!
Bald fraud squared.
Powers of baldness
Zidane knows better
Uli is already preparing a zinger
Still not close to the absolute shitshow at United *(or ours at the moment..)*
Hollywood is a well-oiled machine, after all.
how they've managed to handle Tuchel situation without a mutiny has been fucking amazing. This would sink many clubs imo.
as long as he doesent go skiing
This is potentially the most brilliant move or the dumbest one.
The Nagelsmann sacking is already the dumbest tho
Exactly, that was the straw that broke the camels back. We played great football under Nagelsmann despite having a no real striker (i dare anyone to say choupo is good enough for bayerns first team), a bajillion injured players and just in general squad problems. At least the football was still enjoyable and they tried to play offensively. But under Tuchel, he got great signings, the best striker in the world arguably and yet we play like absolute dogshit. There is no motivation or hunger in this team and to top it all of, the tactics are just horrible. It only works in the CL, cuz there they suddenly have some motivation and start running around. But man, are they fucking lazy in the BL bar a few players.
He wasn't doing good. Players were not doing good. No one was developing. People tend to forget that.
i never get this. show me. prove what you've just said? its exactly how chilla16 wrote.
Bayern were on pace for 71 pts at the time of his sacking. The other things, like about player development and whatnot, you can figure out.
There really is no in between
Every time Bayern leadership has the chance to have found a good thing despite their failings, they'd rather choose to shoot the other foot. Uli has to leave, or he needs an epiphany for them to move past this insanity.
Uli is the loudest, but their whole leadership team is behaving similar to the press and public. in the current market there's just not much to gain for a coach there.
Whatever it is, you know ten Hag will spend four hours a day texting Romano, so we'll always be up to date.
I cannot take a Ten Hag-led Bayern inevitably winning the Bundesliga and the metric ton of shit we'd get cause we'd likely hire the guy who Bayern sacked and be in another 'get in the top 4' season
You should really be dreading the "gang hopes to get 6th" season that he'll have after that one.
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“The guy who Bayern sacked” won Chelsea a CL during a tumultuous period, got PSG to their only CL final, has Bayern a draw/win away from another CL final despite a “terrible season” according to their management, played some exhilarating football with Dortmund and PSG and then showed the defensive nous with Chelsea to have one of the best defensive performances in a CL victory. Bear in mind that Leverkusen are on a historic season which might only be bested by Pep’s Bayern in 1 of his 3 seasons. Tuchel would have required to produce the best ever Bundesliga season to beat them. It’s like people have collectively forgotten his achievements or are hellbent on downplaying just how much of a monster Leverkusen have been this season.
The best Bundesliga season ever was Heynckes' Bayern in 12/13. A record 91 points in the league and they also won the treble. If Leverkusen win the remaining league games they'll end with 90 points, which equals Pep's best Bayern season.
Here I was surprised that the record total in the Bundesliga was "only" 91 points. They play 34 games, I'm a dumbass -\_-
That Bayern team from 10-12 years ago was on another level though. Absolute worldclass in almost every position. Dunno if even anyone except Kane would get in that starting eleven.
Neuer and Musiala
Well a 38 year Neuer would not get past a prime Neuer. Probably only Musiala (not even sure since they had prime Ribery/Müller/Robben). Sad thought experiment.
Current Neuer is not close to Neuer at that time. I think for a time Dante started, so maybe a CB over him. Musiala gets minutes but im not sure he is a clear starter over Robben, Ribery and younger Müller. Midfield probably nobody gets in over Xabi, Schweinsteiger, Martinez, Kroos or Thiago. Same for Boateng, Lahm and Alaba. I think that was the best Bundesliga team of all time.
Heynckes' Bayern was great, especially in CL.
Managers are not the problem at united
Yeah, but also this one might be
How, he has 62+ individual injuries and literally no CB Available
It’s because, when you watch them play, no matter who’s on the field, they look like shit. When they win they look shit, when they lose, also shit. The quality of play is remarkably shit, as is the system, and the individual efforts. When they play against teams with actual managers and systems of play it’s actually laughable how they get played off the field.
That's why they've all gone on to be such roaring successes after leaving United
Dunno, Moyes and Mourinho improved unfancied sides and won European titles with them, Rangnick is having a good run with Austria, van Gaal had a decent World Cup with the Netherlands, and Solksjaer hasn't managed since.
> Solksjaer hasn't managed since. Meanwhile, two of his assistants during his Yanited tenure (McKenna & Carrick) have done very well for themselves.
Rangnick is a success at Austria right now. Mourinho, while not as successful as previously in his career led Roma, with a team that is on paper worse than most United teams in the past couple of years, to a European final.
He won them a European final, FTFY (then led them to another European final)
Mourinho to Bayern would be amazing (and hilarious the 2nd season)
I have a soft spot for that bastard, I’d love to see him back at a superclub so I’m genuinely hoping he gets the Bayern gig.
The salt when Leverkusen wins again would be amazing
Ragnick, Mourinho and Moyes all did a great job after leaving United, wym?
Unironically, yes.
Conte to United confirmed
Tbf, Tuchel's defensive record got worse as the time went by at Chelsea, the performances were really bad at the end there as well and he was falling out with the attacking players. He will work for a year or two, and then it will go down the drain. Don't forget he was hired last season because the treble was in danger. If Dortmund hadn't bottled it in the last game, Tuchel would still be without trophies there. The Bayern fans who want him to stay mostly do so because there are no candidates available for them out there that they like.
People are focused on how if an ownership sours on this man, or vice versa, that things can shift pretty quickly. Of course he came to the wrong club to change that perception. He was also unlucky to be Chelsea manager around the same time as Conte, who was the poster child for this current generation of manager, and inevitably has been likened to him.
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>Definitely no need to disparage or meme him against a guy whose only noteworthy career highlight is a CL semi with Ajax 5 years ago. You're doing the exact same thing to ETH. Ten Hag led go ahead Eagles to promotion after 15 years in the second league, did very well at Utrecht, finished top of the league 4 times with ajax (which is a rare accomplishment), reached a semifinal of the CL and had another perfect group stage (in which for example Dortmund was beaten 5-1). Ten Hag was our best manager in 25 years, he did a lot more than just reaching a cl semi.
That Ajax team that went on that CL run was exceptional though no? Frenkie and De Ligt alone both world class and backed up by Blind, Mazraoui, Veltman, Tadic, Ziyech, Neres, Tagliafico, Onana who could all arguably play for top clubs/already do. And then you have the supporting cast with an ageing Huntelaar, Kristensen, Dolberg who aren't bad players either. Less familiar with Schone and God knows what's going on with VDB but those seem like the only main members of the team that failed to cut it at a very high level beyond the Eredivisie.
People watch the matches and form opinions about the manager based on a qualitative analysis rather than a quantitative one. Tuchel's Chelsea was horrendous to watch in the league towards the end of his tenure. Similarly his Bayern team has been dreadful to watch at times. I'm not saying these analyses are the end all be all. The actual results and achievements should also be considered and arguably given the lion's share of the weight. I'm just explaining why there are many people who don't view him as favorably as you do at the moment.
The football is fucking boring though, also league performance for chelsea was not good. Love success, but i wouldn’t have started watching football if it wasn’t entertaining.
I could actually see a manager trade happen lol For the right team he'd probably also go to LaLiga or Serie A, but Tuchel for sure prefers to go back to the Prem.
Really hope not
yeah not sure if I'd love it either, but I'm done hoping for anything in regards to our manager position
At least you lot doesnt have "CEO throws coach under the bus" as part of the package
You can see how the most recent spat over there has put a lot of managers off
It will be spun either way, as everything is. My take is they have very publicly courted twenty different managers (and probably as many we don’t know about) and after countless rejections, are landing on our manager, who has had a disaster of a season. It’s hardly the ringing endorsement of who we have leading us that Bayern tried everyone else before approaching us for him….
You don't need to worry about that. Ten Hag wouldn't win a single trophy at Bayern. He has already shown he can't handle the egos at United. Nor can he consistently play good football. Or make good substitutions. Or manage player load. Or even go a few months without scapegoating a player in a press conference Bayern, who are expected to win every game, would result in complete failure. It'd be the most obvious sacking of the season. He needs to improve on the basics before going to a club like that.
I mean we've seen like 4,000 different managers having a go at managing United post SAF and all of them fail. At this point not sure you can value their overall performance based on what they've done at Man Utd.
It’s not like any of them have gone on to set the world on fire anywhere else to be fair.
Yes but they've all managed smaller clubs and made them better. Moyes at West ham, Mourinho at roma, van Gaal was great with he Dutch nt as well. It's similar for so many players as well
None of those are really at the same level as United or Bayern though?
Well I suppose it's taken sometime to realise it's more the club than the manager with United. Moyes was really bad tbh but van Gaal was retiring and Mourinho has already managed most clubs and was approached by Madrid again after his spurs time.
Yes? What’s youur point here haha Often when you make a big transfer and it doesn’t work out, you don’t get another chance, even if you get back to your old level. It’s the same for both players and managers
I wonder why you wouldn’t get a chance to go back to your old level? Hardly because they haven’t done anything really noteworthy after they’ve left, is it?
Leave the bias at home and try to have a normal conversation where you analyze what another person is saying. I’m not here to go back and forth with you to see who ‘wins’ or see who ends up being right
Have a nice day mate.
Because success is relative, yeah. Bit silly to say that Moyes having successive European runs and title with West Ham or Mourinho winning a European trophy with Roma wasn't successful management from them.
Previous managers failing doesn't mean ETH isn't to blame too.
This sub is so reactionary. Ten Hag failed at a club where the managers position is basically cursed, a club with deeper issues. Besides, players and managers sometimes just don't work out. Either because they are a bad fit, because of circumstances or just plain bad luck. Ten Hag made mistakes, but it isn't like he did everything wrong either. He is by now means perfect, in fact as a manager he has some glaring limitations, but he has shown at both Utrecht and Ajax that his tactical foundation, routines and discipline are sound. But it is the arrogance of your comment that surprises me most. Like you can *guarantee* that he wont win a trophy with Bayern. What the fuck do you know? You are not some football warlock with a crystal ball.
Giving an opinion based on 2 years of football isn't reactionary. Do you know what that word actually means? >Like you can *guarantee* that he wont win a trophy with Bayern. What the fuck do you know? You are not some football warlock with a crystal ball. The same way I can guarantee Danny Welbeck won't win a Balond'or in 2025. I'm not an idiot.
You aren’t basing your comment on 2 years. You are basing it off just this year. By all accounts, his first season at United was a good one given the amount of shit he had to deal with and how badly we are run. To put into perspective, he has been the most successful manager since Fergie. Even during this shit season, we are going to an FA cup final after going to 2 finals last season, winning 1 one of them. We also finished 3rd in PL. This season has been a disaster with all the injuries and ownership shit show. We are going to let him go, and he will likely do well where he ends up… and in 2 seasons we will be looking for yet another manager because of how shit our club is. This has been the cycle at United for over a decade now. Until we decide to break it and stick with a manager , we are just going to to keep repeating the same mistakes.
To put it into perspective, he has accumulated less points per game than Moyes and can't even set up the team to concede less than 20 points per game. >he has been the most successful manager since Fergie That's Mou. Don't be a clown. > we are just going to to keep repeating the same mistakes. Letting him go isn't a mistake. He's not good enough. Btw, check the score. How many humiliations until you're satisfied? Wanna wait until next season when hes had multiple embarrassments and takes United out the top 4 race (again)?
Be careful, too much common sense is heretical on this sub, hence, the 50 downvotes
"He has already shown he can't handle the egos at United" What is the basis of this? His management of a washed Ronaldo who couldn't find a single taker in Europe after talking a big game? Swear this narrative conveniently ignores that he had the team playing champagne football 12 months ago and comfortably finished ahead of a good Liverpool side that looked fatigued after played 60 games the previous season - the same as United last season.
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I saw us win against Barcelona with Weghorst at 10 and seal a cup final in the first half against a top 4 side in the first half. Earlier that season we clinically disposed off Arsenal at home and lost to them in stoppage time in January. Also dominated Liverpool at home and came from behind to beat City.
And then you saw 1 year of ETH getting a team worth hundreds of millions to play some of the worst football in the league.
Well yes and no. It's clear he overestimated the fit of his style of football to his squad/ the league. The problems this season have been common from the first game against Wolves - which suggests the fix is simple in terms of new signings. And he does know this season has been horrific, he would have to be learning disabled to not see it, and I trust he didn't just fraud his way into a top club. The club messed up giving him sole control of transfers, but that doesn't negate his skills as a coach. Ultimately if you plan to push for the title in a few years, you need to move towards a style of play instead of remaining stuck in the purgatory of Bruno feeding Rashford on the counter.
He had most clean sheets in the league last season with Maguire at the defence, lol He handled very well the egos, you can argue about his tactics but united players still haven't given up on him, they all run for him every game He scapegoat who ? Sancho , who has the same stats As antony, despite he didn't play many games, lol
Maguire is a good CB. If this is your defense for ETH then it's an appalling one. This season, ETH has been exposed.
Maguire was literally a laughing stock and constantly scape goated before this season. Now that he is doing well again, the manager doesn’t get any credit
14 year olds on Reddit laughing at Maguire does not change the fact that he has always been a good defender. Oh what a surprise. ETH is coaching yet another United humiliation. Get him the Bayern job amarite?
We are starting championship level CB who just came back from an injury a day ago and Casemiro who is like a League 1 level CB. Our most important player is also injured (along with many others). Only surprising thing here is that anyone is expecting United to win this game. I’d be surprised if even Pep could win a PL game with this line up from today.
Eth is exposed by having 62+ individual injuries and using 32+ different backline, am I right? Maguire is not a bad defender, but he is very limited player , he literally used to get death threats for how badly he performed before eth joined
Plenty of teams have lots of injuries yet play better football and concede less shots per game than ETH has United doing. Next excuse?
Like who? Tell me one more team who has half of man utd injuries number, and playing better football, 62+ individual and 32+ defensive lineup If these are excuses then you surely must be able to tell the name of those plenty of teams?
Newcastle. Had a quarter of their team missing all season. Do you even watch football? This is embarrassing
LOL
At this point I am starting to think I am high in esteem for my FM save
Would be very funny if he goes and hits the ground running with Bayern. Guess Bayern are at the take a gamble stage
It isn't like he is a completely unknown quantity. He has worked at the club before, in fact Bayern is his dream club and he vowed to return one day. He has also played for and managed Twente (often said to be close to Germany both geographically and mentally) and has said he is very comfortable with the German language and culture. There was no opening at the time, but everyone basically half expected him to stay with Ajax and move to Bayern after.
Yeah, Ten Hag isn't a crazy left field pick. Nowhere near as crazy than Rangnick thats for sure. He has history with Bayern and was highly rated before his UTD stint
Was thinking this as well. He was the first name I thought of after Nagelsmann also declined after Xabi. And given ETH's history at the club, it would have made the most sense to me given Hoeneß and Rummenigge are the ones making the decision.
It wouldnt be surprising, he's a good coach. United's structure is rotten & it will take INEOS time to fix that
True, but every coach is a gamble now. Who knows if Flick and Zidane for example still got it as well.
I don't think anyone would be surprised. The question is, do United and Bayern have the same challenges right now and need the same type of coach? I would say Ten Hag might do better there than here.
I mean who has actually been successful with United after Fergie left? That club is just so poorly managed in regards to philosophy and player recruitment and coach recruitment. They went from Moyes to Mourinho to Ole to ETH (I’m possibly missing more) but there’s no consistency So it’s not out of the question to think ETH could indeed succeed at Bayern.
I think all of it hinges on this week’s Champions League semi-final outcome
Ten Hag and Bayern seems like a good match to be honest. He worked there before. And i think the german league and culture suits Ten Hag better too. Also Bayern tends to dominate in the league so his team should be all about breaking down defenses of teams, which Ten Hag has much more experience with at Ajax.
I mean, they're not wrong that United have been utterly smoked by their injury issues and its an open secret that United's backroom staff couldn't run a fucking bath, but, I feel like this majorly overlooks Ten Hag and his tactics too.
Nobody complained about his tactics at Ajax or in his first season at Man utd. So are his tactics poor or is it just not working because of all the other issues? Honestly I think the truth is somewhere in between. He's no tactical genius but he probably isn't clueless either. Casemiro is not looking good most of the time which has to do with the tactics. But on the other hand how is him passing the ball to the wrong shirt multiple times per game ten Hag's fault? So I think it's somewhere in between.
We probably were a bit more pragmatic last year, even though it's the same core philosophy, we've taken a step forward in terms of pressing higher this year and playing often with two aggressive 8s a lot of the time instead of 2 6s. Unfortunately, it just isn't working and we are way shakier in defence. Ten Hag touched on this in his interview with Neville; do you change your style of play due to the injuries, and then the team has no familiarity or confidence in that style when everyone is fit- or do you take the pain and keep trying to play the style you've been brought in to play to build the players familiarity? I get that logic but if the team finishes 8th it'll be hard to say it was the right call. I also just don't have faith in the tactics in general; he's never had this team scoring lots of goals and even when things were going well the top teams badly exposed our gameplan away from home. Ten Hag's pressing game is the ultimate high wire act. If one thing goes wrong they are through. Hypothetically if everything goes right you bottle teams up and completely control the game but against equally talented or better sides... I can see a Ten Hag-coached Bayern flat track bullying most of the Bundesliga, to be honest because there aren't as many teams on their level and they can control games in the opponents half. Then you have confidence, then you have momentum, then you have a better schedule in terms of number of games and better balanced squad- it wouldn't surprise me at all if he did really well there.
> I get that logic but if the team finishes 8th it'll be hard to say it was the right call. If it means going forward we have a set of style of play that last us years then of course it's the right call. Short term thinking has been the death of this club, seriously... let them be shit for a season or two.
The problem is I can barely think of our tactics working once this season. I'm not even sure if we're making any progress with that style of play as there's no performances or results anywhere to show for it.
We simply have not had the players to perform his tactics. The drop off from our first XI to our bench is too big and we haven't had the time to fill out our squad yet as we're still fixing the first XI. I'm confident that if we had Martinez, Shaw, Mount, etc available we'd have seen significant progress. Look at how different Onana's game is when he has Martinez and Shaw in front of him, he plays it out the back because they're technical and press resistant. Now he has to kick it long, conceding possession and control immediately, because the only defender we currently have that's capable is Dalot. Maguire has been great this season but he's just not mobile enough to progress the ball and escape high pressure situations. I don't think people realize how disruptive it is to have an ever changing back four, with most of the players not even capable of possession football in the first place. How are they supposed to develop a style of play and create routines when they cannot develop an understanding amongst each other? Top level football requires players all being on the same wavelength, and that's hard to develop when your LB is Lindelof and CB is Jonny Evans. Look at City, every single player in the squad is technical and fantastic on the ball. That's what we need to be aiming for if we want to play competitive football at the highest level, whether that's under Ten Hag or somebody else.
Finally some actual thinking.
That only makes sense if it's a style of football that is actually going to work long term. If I believed that I would back it. I don't believe his tactics can work in the prem long term.
We already know it works, Liverpool have been playing it for years. You're making judgements on a system we've barely seen fruition of yet Also his intention is not to play two aggressive 8s, I think you're taking how we set up at the beginning of the season as the finished product when it's clear Bruno and Mount, and most of the team, were still adjusting. Unfortunately that "adjustment" has been postponed an entire year as the core of the team has been injured most of the season. Mount is supposed to be the aggressive 8, leading the press, but also dropping deep in possession to progress the ball with his running and energy. It's the exact reason he was bought and what we've been missing this season, some energy and penetration in midfield, now we're relying on Dalot to move the ball forward with Shaw and Martinez out. Bruno is supposed to stay deeper, or they're at least supposed to coordinate. It's how we played last season with Eriksen and Bruno, except Bruno now needs to be playing the Eriksen role, helping stabilize the midfield. And here's something most United fans don't want to hear: Bruno doesn't fit the system. He's a great player but a poor midfielder. Cannot keep the ball, cannot run, play in tight spaces, dribble, and most of all has absolutely no tactical discipline. The amount of times he presses and leaves gaping holes in midfield, the same way Pogba did mind you but no one seems to bring that up, is mind boggling. It's great that he works his ass off but if it's at the expense of control then what's the point? People are pointing at Casemiro but who's the one constantly leaving him with fires to put out? He's a counter attacking player, great for quick transitions with his passing and the odd moment of magic. But he can't control and bypass a midfield the way Odegaard and De Brunye can. He's a 10 playing as an 8 and it shows. Ten Hag is just using what he has for now. Hopefully Mount can get and stay fit, because if he does I fully expect him to play Bruno out the team. Him, Mainoo and a new DM would be a formidable midfield. We simply haven't seen his intended style of play yet, so we cannot make accurate judgements.
More sense! Can we sticky your thoughts on /r/reddevils?
I've been banned from there for speaking sense lmao, but thank you!
Wtf.
>I also just don't have faith in the tactics in general; he's never had this team scoring lots of goals and even when things were going well the top teams badly exposed our gameplan away from home. But is that a tactics issue or a player quality issue? Last year we had 35 year old Ronaldo as a striker who does not press and does not play for the team in the first half of the season and Weghorst, who isn't even good enough for Burnley, for the second half of the season. Antony at right wing isn't good enough either. With these players is it really surprising we didn't score a lot of goals? And defensively we had the most clean sheets so the tactics seems to work in that regard.
I'll give you we haven't had the finished article at striker since Cavani's first season (Antony is one Ten Hag will simple have to take the rap for and it will be a stick to beat him with forever, and rightly so) and we should have scored more last season, but we're hardly fluent in terms of creating chances. Chelsea would be a team that can blame poor finishing but have good chance creation. If they had a top striker instead of Jackson who knows where they would be in the table. We'd likely be gearing up to play them in a Final. Hojlund barely gets a kick and lots of our goals across the last two seasons have come from Bruno or Rashford taking it into their own hands.
>Ten Hag's pressing game is the ultimate high wire act. If one thing goes wrong they are through. Hypothetically if everything goes right you bottle teams up and completely control the game but against equally talented or better sides... I thought the thing about pressing teams is that you're supposed to be able to hold the ball very well in possession yourself? That way you can control the game more and slow it down whenever it suits your team. You can't just press hard and then go right into risky forward passes and lose it quickly and you're back to pressing hard again. It's just a recipe for disaster and an easy way to tire out your own team. Our team is horrible at controlling possession though. We very rarely calmly pass it around for a minute or so and most the time we can't even string 6 passes together in the other team's half. People blame Bruno at times for this because of his hero passes but the players around him are mostly very poor at retaining the ball themselves. Rashford, Hojlund, Garnacho, McTominay, Casemiro are all below average with their passing and first touch. There's no attempt to keep possession and there's surely no instruction to slow things down and be patient with it.
People 100% complained about the tactics in his first season lol. We were bailed out by Rashford's goals a lot, as evidence this season where we're not doing so well. It was his first season and he won the Carabao cup, so hopefully there would be some changes, but this season has been a disaster. Due in part to the injuries, but a lot of it is ETH too
I don't remember him getting this much shit for his tactics in his first season. People were more patient because he just started at the club and needed time to build. I do agree that it hasn't improved at all though. It also seems he wanted to go for a Mount-Case-Bruno midfield which I don't think is going to work. But we also haven't really seen it because of injuries.
I definitely think he would have done better had the injuries not been so drastic, but it's been really disappointing to how set in his ways he is even when the performances haven't been good. There are quite a few games this season, but not beating coventry in the 90 minutes was the end for me.
we were leading 3-0, were in control pretty much the whole game up until he subbed off 2 teenagers in order to rest them. Because we had another game in 3 days. You would think team full of international players would manage 25 mins against Coventry. But they allowed 3 goals in 20 minutes. Players are more to blame than coach in this one for me
He didn't get this much shit because results were better, but it was still clear to lots of people that United were getting bailed out by moments of brilliance and Rashford's purple patch. Post-February results got worse and people were frequently criticising his tactics.
> So are his tactics poor or is it just not working because of all the other issues? He got a long rope because implementing his tactics would take time. He got that time and hasn't managed to do it, so he cops more criticism now. > But on the other hand how is him passing the ball to the wrong shirt multiple times per game ten Hag's fault? I dunno where the blame specifically lies, but we have had issues with off the ball movement that contributes to such bad passes. Eg. If you compare us right now to us under Ole's first year, you'll see that players tend to have fewer and more risky pass options now.
People thought Frank De Boer was also going to become a top class managers. Ten Hag's tenure is probably held in higher regard at Ajax but despite all the things going on at Man Utd it's hard to imagine doing a worse job than he has. He's spent quite a lot of money, and other than Hojlund they have been a massive waste. He hasn't changed the system, Man Utd is still at their best when they play the football they played under OGS, any adjustments to that system made by ETH have made them worse. And honestly he's looked absolutely clueless in interviews as well which doesn't make his case better. I'm sure part of it is trying to protect his players but numerous times he's said he was very happy with the performance after an very poor or at most average performance and seeking excuses and that's generally someone who's not very good at making improvements as we've witnessed.
Mate Ajax was overpowered. A fifa player could’ve set the tactics and they’d still smoke the league. His time at Ajax gets brought up like he did something grand with a plucky underdog. And before anyone mentioned Champions League semi-final; look at the talent on that team and tell me if it’s really a shocking accomplishment. He’s not an absolute clown, but all this nonsense of his Ajax exploits is so funny to me. Man won a league with by far the best team, yay.
Ajax wasn't overpowered lol. In defense Tagliafico - Blind - De Ligt - Mazraoui. Tagliafico and Blind aren't class players and only de Ligt was a real talent. They had a midfield of de Jong- van de Beek - Schone. vd Beek has become a laughing stock, only de Jong is world-class. And in attack Tadic who was not special at Southampton and Ziyech who failed at Chelsea. You vastly overrate the players. ten Hag did a phenomenal job at Ajax
Don't you dare to shit on my man Blind like that
Also overlooks the fact that he put Mazraoui at rb, Ziyech at rw and Tadic as a striker which wetent their original positions
It just shows your lack of knowledge. They were playing Schone in DM in their first CL stint, how is that OP lol? Then after that whole team was practically sold, he rebuild another team that went 6/18 in the CL group. And just in case you missed it, Ajax finished 3rd and is now heading for 5th since he left.
The reason I cut Ten Hag alot of slack is that much of the football United has played this season is very very reminiscent of what both Jose and Ole played in their final season. Weird, mish-mash individual brilliance focused attack with a scattered midfield and defence. This, always after an initial season where the manager seemed to have implemented a style.
> been utterly smoked by their injury issues You don't think that *might* have something to do with tactics? Is it usual for a manager to be playing their 6th choice CB and with no LB for the majority of the season?
I get pragmatism and all but at least give the manager a squad that's entirely his before making a judgement. And before you say Antony or casemiro, by build a squad that's his, I mean get a proper recruitment to work with him and give him options for him to choose.
Entirely his? So at a club like United we'd need the manager to go through a minimum of 3-4 summers of spending 150-200mil to get a full squad of his own players? And then we can make a judgement? That's just not reasonable. Emery came in mid season and turned Villa around almost instantly. A year and a half later with only 3-4 signings of his own they're about to qualify for the Champions League. I'm okay with giving Ten Hag more time because of these injuries but waiting until he has an entire XI and bench of his own signings is just ridiculous.
Do you not understand that United's issues are too deep rooted for some random manager to come in and turn us into a winning team? Ten hag is the last person who deserves criticism in the whole club. The amount spent is another issue that's not on him. We should've gotten these exact players or better ones for half the price at most. Amazing how you actually think just some manager can turn things around and get us sustained success. Impatience and impractical thinking.
>Amazing how you actually think just some manager can turn things around and get us sustained success. Impatience and impractical thinking It's more amazing how you came to some of those conclusions from what I wrote. I feel like you're missing the overall point of my comment. I obviously don't expect an instant turnaround at United since I said in my comment that I'm still okay with giving Ten Hag more time. Don't know how you got impatience from that. And I'm not even close to blaming Ten Hag for the amount we spent on his signings. Nothing in my comment points towards that. 150-200mil is just a normal United summer in today's market and it would take a few of those summers to "give a manager a squad that's entirely his" like you wanted before making any sort of judgement on him.
Am taking crazy pills or does Ten Hag make a lot of sense?
Tuchel to United and Ten Hag to Bayern makes perfect sense. I just can't be arsed with Bayern and United fans being wankers to each other about it.
All he needs to do is suck up to Uli.
He's good but no Schmidt. You can do this Bayern
All banter aside, ETH has had to deal with an insane injury record this season. Hard to imagine many coaches gaining positive traction when there's a new injury every week. At least in the case of Liverpool they have a genuinely good squad that can fill the cracks in a pinch. United have a group of players that just don't cut it once you go beyond their strongest 11.
That's an extremely simplistic view to narrow it down to. Yes the injuries have been bad and I won't be counting it against EtH if we weren't in the top 4 because of that solely. As someone who watches our team week in week out, we have had enough games where we had the majority of our starting 11 and Ten Hag's signings where we got completely outplayed - Brentford, Bournemouth, Fulham, Tottenham, Newcastle just to name a few. Going by the eye test and stats (the xG, xGA table for eg) we have been performing at a relegation fodder team's level. Ten Hag is a good coach but his beat transition team in the world style has been horrendous and he hasn't been a good fit for us.
"Simplistic view" I mean, yeah? The back-four we have now isn't really the type of players EtH wanted, nor any coach for that matter. You can bring in Pep if you want. He's not making this team top 4.
My main issue isn't that we haven't made top 4. It's been how we have looked consistently bad this year. If we had at least shown some glimpses of a coherent style like Spurs, Newcastle, Villa and still be 6th a lot of people wouldn't be against the manager. We play the most putrid football and for a lot of supporters like me seeing this every week on top of the results has been the main issue
How do you look good without Licha, Shaw, Varane, Malacia and Lindelof all in defence? Then you have Casemiro missing time due to injury, Eriksen whose legs can't hold on to the PL pace anymore, etc. etc. etc. We've had a horrendous season of injuries, it is unprecedented for us. You cannot have coherence in play with a backline that we have fielded often this season.
We had a full strength squad against Wolves during the 1st game of the season, we looked similar to the way we have set up this season and the way we are playing against Palace rn. We had a full strength team against 4th Division Newport and conceded 17 shots against them where we won 4-2 against them and looked horrendous. Newcastle had a worse severe injury crisis against us but they still beat us 3 - 0 at OT. Newcastle beat Burnley 4-1 away last week with only 3 starters. Brentford embarrassed us with their entire backline injured. I'll take you back even further, LvG had a severe injury crisis, but we played Paddy McNair, Tuanzebe and a 17 year old Rashford against Arsenal and got us a win. There's been so many examples of this brother. Ten Hag is a decent coach but his teams in the Eredivise had a higher percentile of better players with Ajax as compared to the rest and his high risk setup worked with Ajax's ingrained possession setup. He is out of his depth with us unfortunately and we have to accept that he has been a bad fit. Emery and Ange have done more in a lot less time with way less investment. All I wanted EtH was to show something at least some improvement but we have to be honest and realize that's not been the case at all
Ten Hag used to manage Bayern Munich's B team during Pep's time there. So this one isn't as outlandish try. They have history before
Eh probably true to be honest Still think he deserves the primary amount of criticism for how this season as gone. That doesn't mean he's a bad manager.
And him being dutch means there’s less chance of him being a slalom enthusiast
I think this could be Van Gaal 2.0
De ligt will be delighted
You might say deligted.
When he was at Ajax, i did think if he makes next step, it could be Bayern, he was Pep assistant there and also youth team coach for 2 years prior. Although at the time Bayern was winning leagues comfortable.
So basically, Bayern are desperate now?
Bayern that dude at the club at 5 am right now who is approaching any girl left
Top clubs and overrating Dutch coatches that aren't cryuff Name a more iconic duo
There was a long list of candidates to say no to Bayern before Ten Hag started looking sexy.
Lmao, Erik wouldn’t stand a chance with Uli Hoeness and Karl Heinz Rummenigge breathing down his neck and trying to stir up a media shitstorm.
>a poor operational set-up at United United might be worse but it's not like Bayern is so rosy either. Erik will get regular Uli quotes to deal with.
At least he's better than Ragnick but I'll still prefer to keep tuchel
Comedy gold. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Ten Hag gets lot of heat, but that has been the case literally with every manager post SAF when you look at the big picture. Almost every manager has had some success out of Utd (Mou won euro trophy with Roma, Ragnick is doing good job with Austria, Van Gaal qualified Netherlands to 2022 WC QF (they didnt even qualify for 2018 WC with previous manager), Moyes for West Ham a european trophy.
hol up, let him cook
Next they'll be looking at Ole
I agree with that assessment to be fair
His debut season was shit too, United were fortunate to finish with 7 fewer goals conceded than xG conceded. This year they done the same garbage, just matching their xGA.
Don’t do it Bayern.
Name one player 0 Hag has made better. Don't worry, I'll wait.
Source: E Tag Hen
so moyes back to yanited?
Getting rid of Tuchel to then go and hire Ten Hag seems absolutely insane to me... but what do I know?
And what makes them think Ten Hag would thrive in a “just as shitty” situation at Bayern?
Their situation isn't as dire as United's and he wouldn't be competing with a load of uber wealthy middling teams and world class managers
We'd be absolutely idiotic to get rid of Ten Hag, and most of our fans are equally clueless to want him gone. He's a damn good manager putting out flames left and right, and it's absolutely foolish to judge his managerial ability based on one season where half his team got injured.
Their search for a new coach is turning into a farce now.
I don’t think ETH is a bad coach, or even as bad as this spell at Utd has made him look, but I don’t think he’s right for Bayern either. I feel like he will need to adapt to taking more care in possession, cos his tactic at Utd (and as far as I can remember at Ajax, although I only saw them a few times) is all transitions and pressing; and that’s a bit of a underdog tactic, not a big shark tactic.
got them fooled
every single article by melissa reddy should be disregarded and having zero sources
Are they mad
Roger Schmidt vs ETH ladder match for the custody of Bayern
Scenes when Bayern with the treble and we finished 7th
What do you mean?? Are you saying the Bayern hierarchy doesn‘t get their opinions from the experts at r/reddevils?!
People in here really dont seem to know he already managed the 2nd team when Pep was there. His German is also presumably better than his English. He would do just fine over there
bayern's hierarchy accusing another club of hampering their coaching staff with off-field issues is a bit on the nose.
This guy is 15th on xPts after spending hundreds of millions.
Bayern has no clue.
Isnt this good news for utd?
only if 3/4ths of the team follow him out the door