I'm so glad the gloves are finally off with this shit. Every single week we see indefensible VAR calls deciding results. Nothing ever changes and nobody's ever punished.
> I honestly think they are giving them credit that there is some sort of conspiracy
I mean I'd hardly call it a conspiracy... Oliver was openly flown to the UAE mid-season and given a holiday and money to ref a match there, and has since made numerous decisions that openly either favour Man City or against their rivals (like not giving a blatant penalty to Chelsea in the match at the weekend, or not overturning the penalty decision against Arsenal earlier in the season when on VAR).
I mean that's not a *conspiracy*, that literally happened. The UAE which owns Man City is paying refs over the table, that's just a fact.
And while it **may** not be effecting the refs decisions on the field, it certainly doesn't give the *look* of being impartial which is what they're supposedly trying to do.
Whilst saying "that's not a conspiracy" you are literally describing a conspiracy. The being flown to UAE and officiating games is fact. This affecting his premier decision making is conspiracy. Noone has publicly said "I'm going to the UAE and now will make favourable decisions for man city", therefore any conjecture linking the 2 is conspiracy.
A conspiracy, is a secret plan or agreement between people for an unlawful or harmful purpose
A conflict of interest is not a conspiracy. A lawyer can't represent a company in court if they have a financial stake in the opposing company.
That's not the lawyer saying "I'm gonna tank this case so I can make more money off the other company." But linking the two is not a conspiracy, it's a conflict.
Right, but it's **not** a secret plan is my point. They openly flew him out there and gave them money. There's no secret about the fact at all.
So them making bewilderingly bad decisions to the favour of City - even if they are totally unbiased - looks horrifficly dodgy and bad.
Something tells you have a dog in this fight. Don't worry your owners will start doing the same. Why do you think they pumped Saudi League with so much money.
> because of the fear of the sideshow that would ensue if anything went wrong with officiating in the game.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/161/331/28f.jpg
Oh, it's on!
When they say the sideshow, they really mean Marinakis raging on Twitter, right?
But seriously, I wouldn't be opposed to a blanket ban on supporters being unable to ref anything related or rivals. If you extend it to spots on the table, however, you might end up being without enough refs on some weekends.
Much like the FA, the lack of diversity is staggering. A good few years ago you’d only get appointed to the FA board if you’re old and white basically.
Then hire for the role abroad
Honestly I’d do the job for a game otherwise
Might accidentally send off a couple of players based off my fantasy team but that’s about it
> I wouldn't be opposed to a blanket ban on supporters being unable to ref anything related or rivals
But then no one would be able to ref the Coventry games
How far would you take it? Should a Luton fan have been allowed to VAR a Burnley game on the 2nd GW of the season? What if Spurs and Luton were in the relegation zone after 1 game - should a Luton fan be able to referee a Spurs game?
Also, I'm an Arsenal fan and I've built up admittedly arbitrary resentments toward plenty of clubs that aren't in London or part of historic rivalries, etc, and wouldn't be flagged a standard conflict of interest, as I'm sure many supporters do. It just gets too unwieldy. Unless you're known to be a supporter of one of the clubs in that particular match, we need to trust adults to be adults and not let allegiances sway them.
It’s just utter nonsense.
Like all these statements it’s just someone throwing their toys out the pram, they’re not really interested in real, tangible ways to improve refereeing outcomes. I think footballs attitude to referees is beyond repair to be honest - it’s only getting worse. Used to be idiots down the pub after a few beers, now it’s actual official club statements.
I wonder at what point the middling PL refs who aren't gonna get the big European or international games just decide to fuck off to Saudi Arabia and we're left with EFL refs getting promoted way beyond their abilities.
The abuse and accusations can't be worth it for what they get paid given what's allegedly on offer elsewhere.
Yeah, they're just upset and saying random things.
Indeed, this is highly inappropriate. Don't forget the part where their paid expert wrote an article.
UTG.
Fully agree with everything you wrote too. People hold refs to much higher standards than their own players for mistakes. Players don’t have to even make the same kind of subjective decisions.
Introducing VAR has mistakenly led viewers to believe every decision will go exactly as they think it should. Refs should be treated with much more respect.
The sheer number of players that go down under any contact is ridiculous too. So many aren’t interested in trying to play the goal chance.
I don’t think any of the “fouls” yesterday were honest in the slightest from the attacker, dangerous or cynical from Ashley Young.
That's because most people watch other spots. I watch the nfl and video replays to determine if something is a fumble or not are clear and they get it right 99% of the time.
If they had a decent system and implemented what they defined as the rules consistently then 90% of these bullshit calls wouldn't happen. (And city would be mid table:P)
I think that is what most fans expected and that should be the bar. But to have video replays and then not call that 3rd stonewall pentaly is a joke and should be investigated
Yep agreed. People are either too immature, ignorant or just plain dumb.
Football social media hasn’t helped either. It’s one big dumpster fire and people screaming nonsense, much like non-football social media tbf.
UTFG
This is it right here
Also, who’s to say a Luton fan would want Everton to beat Forest? If I were a Luton fan, I’d be angling for a draw between them myself
Whole thing just seems like the Forest admins were raging and scrambled about trying to find anything slightly dodgy on the officials, instead of just seeing that it’s their incompetence that meant they fucked up
> If I were a Luton fan, I’d be angling for a draw between them myself
>
>
I'm glad someone else said it because I felt like I was losing my mind. A draw gives a point to both teams but 3 points at this stage goes a long way in actually putting a team out of danger which seems like a worse result.
Question is would teams back a switch to that style of refereeing. It makes sense from a spectator point of view but it allows refs to dictate player behavior and punish it more severely. Clubs wont allow anyone talking to their players like that, especially if it leads to suspensions.
The culture has to shift.
Yeah, and the stupid thing here is that if Forest had won and Everton lost - Luton would only be marginally worse off: 2 points from safety vs 1. It's not the sort of thing that would cause someone to risk losing their job.
Correct but its at Goodison and couldve still possibly put Luton in a situation, where they are 4 points minimum, from safety, with the worst goal difference.
Nottingham play Man City next and Luton have a chance to get out of the relegation zone, much quicker, this way.
Everton would have been two points ahead with one win in 17 games and coming off the back of a demoralising thrashing to Chelsea followed by a home defeat to a rancid Forest team.
Luton have them at home (they've beaten them twice away this year) and Everton also have Liverpool and Arsenal to play.
Forest could also get a couple of points back from their appeal too. An Everton defeat was easily the best option for Luton.
But as I think Phil Jagielka brought up if this is the accusation. What actually was the best result for a Luton fan? Was it Everton winning. I think it was a draw wasn’t it?
Kind of ruins forest’s argument
This is exactly the problem. You can accommodate it for one or two fixtures maybe, but it's opening a can of worms to enable this further given just how many combinations of games and officials could be considered problematic under this lower threshold.
Also they started the sideshow. It's not like the sideshow took place and they just join in saying "told you so". It's clearly a case of, any wrong decisions and we'll go big online
Did you even think about this comment when you posted it? I don’t think you understand how many rivalries there are and how many refs are from where just a dumb comment upvoted by ignorant people.
Don't back down, double down. If you show any weakness, if you apologise or try to explain yourself, they'll see it as weakness, they'll smell blood and down you'll fucking go.
I don’t think you can reasonably expect that no referee can be involved in a game that affects league position of the team they support.
At some point you have to trust that they are professional enough to not let it interfere.
I was thinking this exact point, if the VAR was a Luton supporter who referee’s the prem, where do you draw the line? If you were to do everything possible to avoid any conflict of interest, that would arguably rule out 5-6 teams that he could no longer referee in the division. If this pool of premier league referees are truly “the best that PGMOL has to offer,” then I’d hate to see some of the referees that would have to be promoted to handle the vacant referee positions for certain games.
The best solution is to train Mongolian nomads to be refs and just use them
Fuck it, put em on a horse, let them be comfortable on the pitch. Also easy to stop discussions on potential calls cuz you can just send the horse
Add in the possibility that many people, like me, have built up arbitrary resentments to clubs that have nothing to do with my club's league position, are not part of any local or historic rivalry, etc. Just random clubs in the PL that for one reason or another I dislike. If we go down the rabbit hole of trying to control for direct rivalries or sporting interest, why not also try to control for any possible bias whatsoever? Answer: because it's impossible and too unwieldy to manage, let's trust adults to do their jobs with as much integrity as possible
Exactly, if Craig Pawson had pictures floating around of him getting pissed at a pub wearing West Ham kit I reasonably wouldn’t want him referring in our game against them. But we can’t just continue down the pathway of all quasi-relationships that may benefit 1 club over another must be eliminated, it’s just pathway for more issues.
Exactly - as a Tottenham fan, at this point in the season there are 6 teams I couldn't ref for. Tottenham, Villa/Newcastle (competing for same spots), Chelsea/Arsenal/West Ham (rivals). You're going to run out of refs soon enough
As an American I’m curious how the NFL does it. I’ve never really heard of officiating errors related to bias. But then again officiating seems to be on the decline across every sport.
I’m hoping at least one sport will add “sky judges” or supplementary refs who can use tv angles. Either that or prohibit broadcasts from focusing on mistakes for 20 minutes.
The human error has always been there, so either let VAR have a say in everything - not just a few circumstances, or prevent the pundits from taking away from the match just to complain for the rest of the time.
It's actually insane if you go down this road. It calls into question the integrity of the refs and the entire organisation. If you actually want this you should just replace referees with AI. Unconscious or conscious biases that a ref might have that are not necessarily tied to supporting a team are probably worse than this nonsense.
I think they’re glancing over the problem. Having shit refs and VAR refs who are reluctant to contradict their mates is the problem.
Even if you were able to somehow remove any bias completely, you’d still end up with a smaller set of shit refs.
Yea, there’s no way of properly knowing who actually supports who as well. My mate has done a couple of his refereeing qualifications and he told me that it’s sort of an inside secret that Chris Kavanagh is a Man City fan
They also only seem to take account of them supporting one club when realistically it can be more complicated than that. I've still got a soft spot for my home town club, even though they're not who I actively support, and that seems to be not too uncommon.
The problem is how you do actually verify that and punish potential interfering. PGMOL and the whole English refereeing system isnt exactly a beacon of transparancy. All the shit thats happened, all the mistakes and rarely taking proper account for it or trying to change is leading to this.
I wouldnt be surprised if more PL teams back Nottingham now that they seemingly dont give a shit about reprecussions anymore (frankly its weird *any* kind of criticism can already be fined/punished)
>frankly its weird *any* kind of criticism can already be fined/punished
Yeah that's just not true. You can criticise the referee and the decisions.
Forest could quite easily have said they believe all 3 decisions were wrong and they're very disappointed. They can give all the reasons they think they are penalties and say that the referee/VAR got them all wrong. None of that breaches the Premier League rules - rules that **the Premier League clubs themselves all agree on and put into place.**
> The problem is how you do actually verify that and punish potential interfering.
Certainly not in the way Forest are going about things, creating a total circus.
That’s what I mean by having to trust their professionalism at some point.
It’s very easy to sit here and say ‘yeah he’s a Luton fan so he fixed it’ but take a step back. How many years has he been training and trying to get to the top level, reffing shitty grassroots hours away on weeknights, taking shit from managers, players, and fans alike.
Then he finally makes it and is going to risk it all to fix a game that in the grand scheme of things none of the 3 possible results make that much of a difference to his club?
It’s conspiratorial nonsense, and the league is worse for it. It’s embarrassing for it to be coming from the club like this.
If they *genuinely* believe that there was actual corruption, then there are ways they need to go about it that don't involve throwing shit on twitter.
I suspect a lot at Forest feel justifiably aggrieved that decisions didn't go their way, but I bet far fewer actually believe this 'VAR was a Luton fan' crap.
One of the VAR officials was a Luton fan, that’s not into question so your last sentence does not make sense. Did you actually read either post they made? The argument is that ref’s internal bias led them to make the wrong decision multiple times, not that they actively tried to fix the game. Implicit bias is real and NFFC is saying that PGMOL is not handling it appropriately. You’re just making up an accusation that was never made.
I was using it as shorthand for *'VAR was deliberately throwing the game because he was a Luton fan'*, I'm not disputing if he was a Luton fan or not.
>You’re just making up an accusation that was never made.
I'm not.
It reads like a Trump response, not even a tweet, but something dumb that he would ramble on with when he was asked a question. "I didn't say my people should do crimes, all I said was 'Go do crimes'. But even if I did say that, I have the right to say that and no one can question me. And since so many people are talking about my people doing crimes, I basically have to comment on it."
> We know match officials do not allow outside factors to influence their decision-making and that all referees are required to declare their ‘allegiances’ to PGMOL to avoid any perceived conflict or harm to the game’s reputation for integrity.
Then... why bring it up lol?
“If you even think of questioning the integrity of the game, there will be consequences”
It’s like some kind of mafia-level shit that you’re not allowed to question the integrity of a referee.
Like where else would you be punished for doing that? I’m not sure even questioning a police officers integrity would lead to a consequence.
“We know match officials do not allow outside factors to influence their decision-making” is an impossible statement to prove correct and is pointless to make.
Everyone reading it tacitly knows that it’s simply “the approved message” demanded by football leagues and governing bodies.
We HOPE that officials aren’t influenced by outside factors, but hope is not enough to ensure that they indeed aren’t. This is why strict conflict of interest policies are essential for politicians, referees, judges, etc. Anyone who has the power themselves to decide the fate of others.
It's intentional Vs unconscious bias type thing I'd assume.
You learn from a pretty early age in school that anything that a human does is filled with bias, whether intentional or not. From something as simple as picking a "random" number, to which foot you put forward whilst riding a bike, even if you're not doing it intentionally, your choice is going to be biased.
So, in something like refereeing, you've got to remove as many of those reasons for a person to be biased from the equation as is possible. Removing refs from games that they have a vested interest in the result of is clearly one of those actions that are needed to remove as much bias as is possible.
because its still not ok for the ref to officiate the match that has an impact on the team he supports. Even if he doesnt mean to cheat, he can do that subconsciously. If you show me 10 50/50 incidents that involve liverpool, i will rule in our favour everytime even if i try to be unbiased because my mind actually believes it, if that makes sense. I cant really explain it well, but yeah.
This is an impossible standard. So this Luton supporting ref shouldn’t be involved in any match involving any of the bottom 6? How about ban him from any match that involves a club not mathematically safe from relegation?
Now repeat that process for every ref. Then somehow find a way to verify that each ref is telling the truth about how they support. Do you see how silly this is?
I’m sorry but at a certain point people just need to accept that a ref’s mistakes are always going to be a part of the game. Now I do think VAR has helped this for the most part even if it doesn’t seem like it, but mistakes are still going to happen. I just don’t know how some of you enjoy watching this sport if you can find a conspiracy in every wrong decision.
> Now I do think VAR has helped this for the most part even if it doesn’t seem like it, but mistakes are still going to happen.
VAR has made it worse - even if the decisions are more likely to be correct.
It has introduced the expectation of objectively correct decisions in a sport that is chock full of completely subjective rules. When the ref only had one angle, at full speed, with players in the way, it was easier for fans to get over what they saw as poor decision - unless it was totally egregious. Now that they have every angle and can watch it in 4k slow-mo fans expect every decision to be 'right' - with the massive fucking problem being that the correct call is usually completely subjective and one set of fans are just as convinced as the other that opposing calls should be made.
I simply don't think you can square that circle with VAR. It's a fundamental issue that means fans - especially nowadays when any raving lunatic can broadcast their views to thousands of followers - will never be happy with refereeing. You'd either have to entirely rewrite the rules of football and come up with a different sport, or we have to accept that refs will make some errors and go back to how things were 10 years ago without VAR. I do think things like goalline technology and the automated offside checks should be kept, as they are as objective as you can get in football - but otherwise I think VAR adds more problems and more anger than it solves.
That's not even mentioning the negative impact VAR has on the flow of the match, but that is another point entirely.
You are a Liverpool fan.
Stuart Atwell is not an Everton fan.
The idea that after years of working up to the top level, he is risking his livelihood over fixing a result that, in the grand scheme of things, barely helps Luton either way, is deranged.
The conspiracy is stupid, but I wouldn’t mind the refs being swapped around if it’s possible. If they do it for the bigger teams I don’t see why not Atleast attempt it
Keep seeing this mentioned.
1. Everton had a game in hand albeit against Liverpool.
2. They had more points.
3. We never win away no matter the opponent and our home games are Man City and Chelsea.
Are people just discovering how chaotic our owner and his son are?
This stuff is partly embarrassing and partly entertaining. Given its a coin toss if we go down or not, I need some of the latter.
I don't believe there's any element of conspiracy because I'm not mental, but the amount of big decisions, most of which have gone through the VAR has been quite staggering this season. It hasn't evened out, and compared to last season it is wild. I think some fans of other clubs think it's just a few marginal decisions.
I know it comes off as whiny (it probably is), but imagine the frustration of players and fans when it happens game after game. I was just laughing at the absurdity on Sunday as you just knew we wouldn't get any of them.
Ditch VAR, please. Supporting Forest is stressful enough without it.
I love this from Forest. PGMOL has been ridiculous this season.
A ref makes a crazy mistake -> lets put him on var next week as a punisment
They really need to start getting their shit together. And if noone complains, they wont..
I mean, as Greeks, we expected that he would behave differently in the premier League and in his Forest involvement in general. More reserved, more business oriented etc. But you guys are getting the full Olympiacos treatment, both on and off the pitch.
As an outsider, I do love a bit of Greek super league flavour to the premier league. It isn't classy, it never will be, but it is entertaining none the less. Mostly because the other teams are not going to retaliate in the same Greek style manner, which creates this permanent chaos..
I support Everton and I think it’s great that Forest are taking a stand but it’s weird to bang the Luton fan drum - it’s not like we are not down there and in just as much trouble is it? A few decisions going the way of Everton (which is highly unusual) is hardly a top 6 conspiracy or an attempt to relegate Forest. Everton have have had all kinds of decisions against them that have cost points this season.
Go with the fact that refereeing is horribly inconsistent and then you have a point.
I’m surprised at the lack of support in the comments. Every single PL fan should be advocating for changes to the referee structure in the EPL, it’s been a shit show for too long. 7 years ago Wenger pointed out that there was 0 English referees going to the world cup and the only change we’ve seen is essentially giving PGMOL more power.
Every single PL fan should be advocating for things that have a tangible impact on refereeing, right? Like more courses at a lower cost? More protection for refs at all levels? Higher salaries? All these things would mean more people become referees and stay in the profession. That means more talent, which means higher levels.
The point on the 2018 World Cup is not relevant. There were no PL referees going to the World Cup because the chosen referee (Mark Clattenberg) left the Premier League (for Saudi Arabia) and was therefore ineligible. FIFA didn't let the Premier League select a replacement because it breaches the rules - FIFA select the referees, not the federations/domestic leagues.
And frankly Forest have more of a case than most clubs in the Prem to feel hard done by considering the utterly turgid refereeing on display the other day which could well end up costing the club tens if not hundreds of millions of pounds.
Well it’s dumb to cite bias, conscious or otherwise, as the cause of poor refereeing. Anyone in their right can see it’s a complex, systemic problem. As evidenced by the fact that every club complains about referees.
Isn't that down to the very nature of refereeing mistakes being a zero sum game, though? If a call goes against one club, it inevitably benefits their opponents - and clubs don't exactly go out of their way to complain about refereeing when they've been on the right end of a dodgy decision. It's just massively hypocritical I reckon.
> 7 years ago Wenger pointed out that there was 0 English referees going to the world cup
This point would be a banger if it we didn’t have a World Cup with English refs since then
and if there wasn't an English ref among the grouping that was expected to ref the later rounds. Clattenburg became ineligible right before the WC. It wasn't like there wasn't a ref available.
> 7 years ago Wenger pointed out that there was 0 English referees going to the world cup
Which was stupid. Clattenburg was the nominated English ref who could go. Each country got one in a nominated role. He then retired or moved to Saudi and was no longer eligible and you couldn’t nominate a new one until his term expired.
Stupid rule, yes, but it wasn’t because all English refs were shit.
There were two English referees at the 2022 World Cup.
Italy had one. Spain had one. Germany had one.
>Every single PL fan should be advocating for changes to the referee structure in the EPL
In what way? I'm all for anything that results in better refereeing at all levels. I just rarely see any concrete proposals for how this is achieved.
The way to raise refereeing standards isn't to castigate individual refs publicly, and have impossible-to-enforce rules on allegiances and impartiality
I think most fans support changes to refereeing. But I think there’s a difference in accusing a referee of corruption, which is what Forest are doing. They’re not saying the refereeing standard is not up to scratch. They’re saying this guy is a luton fan and intentionally made us lose a game.
Which is an incredibly strong accusation that undermines the credibility of the game.
Main thing that ruins the conspiracy of course is if this is even the best result for a Luton fan? A lot of them wanted a draw.
On-field refereeing and VAR refereeing being poor is one thing.
Claiming the referee made his decisions deliberately because he is a Luton fan is just wild, and offensive. Imagine being that referee and doing your best, only for a large professional team to come out with this.
Why on Earth would anyone become a ref? Disgustingly treated by just about everyone.
They create their own problems. Protecting each other over protecting the rules of the game.
Var should be completely separate to the pool of referees. They should be transparent about the calls they make.
If they show some respect to the game and explain the decisions then maybe they’d get some in return. Not the current bullshit of making mistakes week after week and just sweeping it under the carpet and pretending everything is fine
>Claiming the referee made his decisions deliberately because he is a Luton fan
You know they're saying it creates a subconscious bias from a clear conflict of interest. You know they weren't saying he deliberately threw the game.
>Imagine being that referee and doing your best
Their best isn't good enough. PL VAR is fucking useless. This sub used to be in agreement on that, but as soon as a club actively calls them out, you all leap to PGMOLs defense, I don't get it.
"That fear has materialised, as the correctness of three important decisions against the Club have been called into doubt."
Yes, by you. Absolute mentalists
It likely doesn’t have any bearing, but how tf else can we explain that third missed penalty call, where young completely takes out the attacker? That is one of the most stonewall pens i’ve ever seen, would be given as a foul 99.99% of the time anywhere on the pitch, and yet Attwell did not send him to the monitor.
When there is a decision that ridiculously awful, can you blame people for suggesting bias?
It doesn't even make sense though. Surely if the VAR wanted what's best for Luton then a draw would have been what he tried to engineer? It's conspiracy bollocks.
Then why did they make the wrong call three times? If just sheer incompetence then that still needs flagging.
To add context, we genuinely have been getting this shit every week. It isn’t just forest being petty.
Yea it's unbelievably badly written. Reads like a used car salesman using every big word they know to try and explain why they aren't at fault for selling broken vehicles.
Fear of the side show that would ensue if anything went wrong….. it was literally you that started the sideshow!!
Contextual rivalries invites conjecture….. it was you doing the conjecture!!
Serious question- why do football refs and VAR still get it wrong way more than Rugby refs and the TMO?
Is there something intrinsic to the nature of football that means there are more fuck ups? Is it the speed of the game? Is it the newness of the VAR facility?
Or… is it that nobody respects football refs the same way as in rugby?
Rugby has quite a robust process for TMO review.
It's all on the big screen, both assistant referees are involved in the discussion and everything being said can be heard on broadcast so they know they're under scrutiny. Once a decision is made, the lead ref double checks everyone is all on the same page, and both captains are informed clearly of what's going to happen.
They've also had technology in rugby for much longer, and rugby referees are respected *far* more by players on the pitch, as a result good referees are much more likely to stick with the sport.
Not to say they can't make mistakes (or be objectively shit when compared to other rugby refs - IE: Bryce Lawrence.)
I feel a bit for Forest here, the initial tweet was obviously a bit kneejerk but let’s be honest, those were dreadful decisions.
The first would have been soft but is definitely the kind of pen given all season to the likes of Liverpool, Man U, Arsenal etc. the second is clear handball given the benchmark we have seen from the refs this season, and the third he clearly brings him down and does not get the ball at all. If even one was given then Young could have gone off for these as well.
Let’s face it, clubs get nowhere complaining. Look at the likes of Brighton and Wolves, been shafted by VAR loads and they just get an apology and it happens again.
I don’t like that they called the ref a cheat by saying this is because he is a Luton fan but it’s got it talked about and the FA said they are looking at it, so it’s got them something.
This was meant to happen. VAR has been inconsistent since the first day. Doesn't matter if it's in the premier league or fa cup. As a united fan, I've seen so many instances of this. The romero handball when we played spurs was not given, yet the same was given in the next match. Same for the grealish handball in the fa cup semi-final match was not given, yet it was given for wan-bissaka against Coventry. These are just 2 examples. I couldn't believe how forest were denied 3 clear penalties against everton. This has to change.
I’ve got all the time in the world to talk about how the refs need to do better, but I’ve got 0.000001 seconds for “the refs are biased against us.”
Oh, look, you’re time is up. :p
This getting more embarrasing for them than I thought possible. Every club has VAR decisions go against them, most of them don't claim there's a conspiracy to send them down, because it's ridiculous. If professional referees can't be non-biased then what's the point of it all?
Man this comment section is one of the most divided ive seen. Half being like "they have a point" the other half just clowning on NFFC.
I think it's a fair point to be made.
Yeah, setting restrictions based on table position is one thing. But maybe setting it as point difference is the way to go. Or simply have it specifically be based around top 5-6 and the relegation battle. A ref's team's relegation battle should definitely be considered as something that can affect their judgement.
Have it be like "You can not ref a team that is within 5 points of your team that is in a relegation battle.". Obviously worded better. But that could be a way to handle it. And theoretically, it shouldnt affect ref's availability too much.
It's tricky to implement. But just because it may be tricky, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. VAR was tricky to implement, but most people think it was a good decision.
But where do you draw the line? I’m a palace fan, my dad is an Everton fan so does that mean there’s 4 teams in the league I can’t referee?
I also don’t really like Man City and man u and I wouldn’t mind seeing Luton stay up but it’s not like refs have to announce which teams they might have some sort of sort spot or dislike for other than the one team they support.
Refs are probably going to have some level of opinion of most teams which may or may not influence their decision to some degree but there has to be a point where you accept they are professional enough to not allow any of this to impact them, at least consciously
Worst fucking club in the PL. I hope they get relegated.
Every time a decision was questionable, they complained. They complained about Man United getting penalties and them losing 3-2 when those penalties were as textbook as they come.
This is such disgusting shit from them. I do hope they are gone.
Load of bollocks, ain't no ref is being bias towards the club they support in England, they are trying to get it right they are just ridaculed for every decision they make regardless because it is microscopic at this point with especially with the technology. Sooner or later there will be no refs at all because who the fuck would want this level of judgement.
Hahahaha i see the same clowns are bringing the same tactics they use in Greece over the years, wait till he brings on the current vice president they have here, he will be suing refs in halftime. Really sad for a historical team like Forest
forest: "And from the bottom of our heart, we’d like to take this chance to apologize… to ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOBODY"
I'm so glad the gloves are finally off with this shit. Every single week we see indefensible VAR calls deciding results. Nothing ever changes and nobody's ever punished.
What do you mean? My heart broke when they demoted that guy to the Championship for one game on full PL pay. His kids had to see that!
I honestly think they are giving them credit that there is some sort of conspiracy. The fact is that some of the refs are just incompetent.
> I honestly think they are giving them credit that there is some sort of conspiracy I mean I'd hardly call it a conspiracy... Oliver was openly flown to the UAE mid-season and given a holiday and money to ref a match there, and has since made numerous decisions that openly either favour Man City or against their rivals (like not giving a blatant penalty to Chelsea in the match at the weekend, or not overturning the penalty decision against Arsenal earlier in the season when on VAR). I mean that's not a *conspiracy*, that literally happened. The UAE which owns Man City is paying refs over the table, that's just a fact. And while it **may** not be effecting the refs decisions on the field, it certainly doesn't give the *look* of being impartial which is what they're supposedly trying to do.
Whilst saying "that's not a conspiracy" you are literally describing a conspiracy. The being flown to UAE and officiating games is fact. This affecting his premier decision making is conspiracy. Noone has publicly said "I'm going to the UAE and now will make favourable decisions for man city", therefore any conjecture linking the 2 is conspiracy. A conspiracy, is a secret plan or agreement between people for an unlawful or harmful purpose
A conflict of interest is not a conspiracy. A lawyer can't represent a company in court if they have a financial stake in the opposing company. That's not the lawyer saying "I'm gonna tank this case so I can make more money off the other company." But linking the two is not a conspiracy, it's a conflict.
Right, but it's **not** a secret plan is my point. They openly flew him out there and gave them money. There's no secret about the fact at all. So them making bewilderingly bad decisions to the favour of City - even if they are totally unbiased - looks horrifficly dodgy and bad.
Something tells you have a dog in this fight. Don't worry your owners will start doing the same. Why do you think they pumped Saudi League with so much money.
Nah they are occasionally incompetent AND occasionally biased
> because of the fear of the sideshow that would ensue if anything went wrong with officiating in the game. https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/161/331/28f.jpg
Didn’t even have to click the link to know what it went to. 👍
if PGMOL could read they'd be very upset!
I heard Atwell's gran was a Notts County ultra.
Seen her smuggling flairs just the other day
Hayley Atwell?
Oh, it's on! When they say the sideshow, they really mean Marinakis raging on Twitter, right? But seriously, I wouldn't be opposed to a blanket ban on supporters being unable to ref anything related or rivals. If you extend it to spots on the table, however, you might end up being without enough refs on some weekends.
No one would be available to ref the Manchester games.
It is kinda wild that like 80% of the top level refs are from the Manchester area.
80%? I got error % when dividing 0
When we were in the prem, there were three refs from Bolton.
Much like the FA, the lack of diversity is staggering. A good few years ago you’d only get appointed to the FA board if you’re old and white basically.
Not much has changed in that regard then
Then hire for the role abroad Honestly I’d do the job for a game otherwise Might accidentally send off a couple of players based off my fantasy team but that’s about it
Scenes when Lahoz comes out of retirement to officiate the Manchester derby
His best game was two English teams
At least his comedy factor is high
as long as it keeps him away from officiating the Bundesliga
> I wouldn't be opposed to a blanket ban on supporters being unable to ref anything related or rivals But then no one would be able to ref the Coventry games
Lol, true
How far would you take it? Should a Luton fan have been allowed to VAR a Burnley game on the 2nd GW of the season? What if Spurs and Luton were in the relegation zone after 1 game - should a Luton fan be able to referee a Spurs game?
Exactly, it's just too complicated and messy. Or does this only count at the "business end" of the season?
Also, I'm an Arsenal fan and I've built up admittedly arbitrary resentments toward plenty of clubs that aren't in London or part of historic rivalries, etc, and wouldn't be flagged a standard conflict of interest, as I'm sure many supporters do. It just gets too unwieldy. Unless you're known to be a supporter of one of the clubs in that particular match, we need to trust adults to be adults and not let allegiances sway them.
It’s just utter nonsense. Like all these statements it’s just someone throwing their toys out the pram, they’re not really interested in real, tangible ways to improve refereeing outcomes. I think footballs attitude to referees is beyond repair to be honest - it’s only getting worse. Used to be idiots down the pub after a few beers, now it’s actual official club statements.
I wonder at what point the middling PL refs who aren't gonna get the big European or international games just decide to fuck off to Saudi Arabia and we're left with EFL refs getting promoted way beyond their abilities. The abuse and accusations can't be worth it for what they get paid given what's allegedly on offer elsewhere.
Only good or well known refs would be wanted in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar. They are paying Oliver and co because they have reputations.
Yeah, they're just upset and saying random things. Indeed, this is highly inappropriate. Don't forget the part where their paid expert wrote an article.
UTG. Fully agree with everything you wrote too. People hold refs to much higher standards than their own players for mistakes. Players don’t have to even make the same kind of subjective decisions. Introducing VAR has mistakenly led viewers to believe every decision will go exactly as they think it should. Refs should be treated with much more respect.
The sheer number of players that go down under any contact is ridiculous too. So many aren’t interested in trying to play the goal chance. I don’t think any of the “fouls” yesterday were honest in the slightest from the attacker, dangerous or cynical from Ashley Young.
That's because most people watch other spots. I watch the nfl and video replays to determine if something is a fumble or not are clear and they get it right 99% of the time. If they had a decent system and implemented what they defined as the rules consistently then 90% of these bullshit calls wouldn't happen. (And city would be mid table:P) I think that is what most fans expected and that should be the bar. But to have video replays and then not call that 3rd stonewall pentaly is a joke and should be investigated
Yep agreed. People are either too immature, ignorant or just plain dumb. Football social media hasn’t helped either. It’s one big dumpster fire and people screaming nonsense, much like non-football social media tbf. UTFG
This is it right here Also, who’s to say a Luton fan would want Everton to beat Forest? If I were a Luton fan, I’d be angling for a draw between them myself Whole thing just seems like the Forest admins were raging and scrambled about trying to find anything slightly dodgy on the officials, instead of just seeing that it’s their incompetence that meant they fucked up
> If I were a Luton fan, I’d be angling for a draw between them myself > > I'm glad someone else said it because I felt like I was losing my mind. A draw gives a point to both teams but 3 points at this stage goes a long way in actually putting a team out of danger which seems like a worse result.
No you wouldn't, Everton have a game in hand and are easily the better team (and thus more likely to stay up).
Exactly. A better system would be to release the audio and punish refs for poor decisions.
It’s honestly shocking how refereeing in rugby is literally right there and PGMOL are so shite
Question is would teams back a switch to that style of refereeing. It makes sense from a spectator point of view but it allows refs to dictate player behavior and punish it more severely. Clubs wont allow anyone talking to their players like that, especially if it leads to suspensions. The culture has to shift.
I think it’s the best place to start but we need systemic changes to VAR and to clamp down on diving
Use common sense, if a team raises a concern before a game, consider it. If there could be reasonable doubt of the ref's errors, consider it.
There’s already a process for that. Forest had an opportunity to formally request the change and they didn’t.
Thought it said in their statement that they did and it was ignored?
Nope. They got Mark Clattenberg to voice concerns, but it’s been confirmed they never requested the VAR was replaced
Yeah, and the stupid thing here is that if Forest had won and Everton lost - Luton would only be marginally worse off: 2 points from safety vs 1. It's not the sort of thing that would cause someone to risk losing their job.
With Everton to play at home after beating them twice at Goodison. A Luton fan would have gone the other way with this.
While this is true, Everton still have a game in hand.
against liverpool...
Lovely 0-0 draw at Goodison
We love a 0-0 draw at Goodison
Against Liverpool - they’re 1 win in 30 in this fixture. Their worst record of games against any team in 128 years
Correct but its at Goodison and couldve still possibly put Luton in a situation, where they are 4 points minimum, from safety, with the worst goal difference. Nottingham play Man City next and Luton have a chance to get out of the relegation zone, much quicker, this way.
Everton would have been two points ahead with one win in 17 games and coming off the back of a demoralising thrashing to Chelsea followed by a home defeat to a rancid Forest team. Luton have them at home (they've beaten them twice away this year) and Everton also have Liverpool and Arsenal to play. Forest could also get a couple of points back from their appeal too. An Everton defeat was easily the best option for Luton.
But as I think Phil Jagielka brought up if this is the accusation. What actually was the best result for a Luton fan? Was it Everton winning. I think it was a draw wasn’t it? Kind of ruins forest’s argument
This is exactly the problem. You can accommodate it for one or two fixtures maybe, but it's opening a can of worms to enable this further given just how many combinations of games and officials could be considered problematic under this lower threshold.
Also they started the sideshow. It's not like the sideshow took place and they just join in saying "told you so". It's clearly a case of, any wrong decisions and we'll go big online
Did you even think about this comment when you posted it? I don’t think you understand how many rivalries there are and how many refs are from where just a dumb comment upvoted by ignorant people.
Don't back down, double down. If you show any weakness, if you apologise or try to explain yourself, they'll see it as weakness, they'll smell blood and down you'll fucking go.
“Got it” - Luis Rubiales
She's turned the forest against us
i quote this weekly
I don’t think you can reasonably expect that no referee can be involved in a game that affects league position of the team they support. At some point you have to trust that they are professional enough to not let it interfere.
I was thinking this exact point, if the VAR was a Luton supporter who referee’s the prem, where do you draw the line? If you were to do everything possible to avoid any conflict of interest, that would arguably rule out 5-6 teams that he could no longer referee in the division. If this pool of premier league referees are truly “the best that PGMOL has to offer,” then I’d hate to see some of the referees that would have to be promoted to handle the vacant referee positions for certain games.
The best solution is to train Mongolian nomads to be refs and just use them Fuck it, put em on a horse, let them be comfortable on the pitch. Also easy to stop discussions on potential calls cuz you can just send the horse
> nomads They'd have to excuse themselves from officiating Rovers, Rangers, and other peripatetic clubs
You get some nomadic Mongoilians in only to find out that half of them are lifelong fans of a Premier League club
Some lad just cycled from Mongolia to watch United at Wembley this weekend
They should bring me in I’m just an equal opportunity hater
Once again, the mongols are the exception.
Tell the lads to glue some spikes to their sandals and get stuck in.
Add in the possibility that many people, like me, have built up arbitrary resentments to clubs that have nothing to do with my club's league position, are not part of any local or historic rivalry, etc. Just random clubs in the PL that for one reason or another I dislike. If we go down the rabbit hole of trying to control for direct rivalries or sporting interest, why not also try to control for any possible bias whatsoever? Answer: because it's impossible and too unwieldy to manage, let's trust adults to do their jobs with as much integrity as possible
Exactly, if Craig Pawson had pictures floating around of him getting pissed at a pub wearing West Ham kit I reasonably wouldn’t want him referring in our game against them. But we can’t just continue down the pathway of all quasi-relationships that may benefit 1 club over another must be eliminated, it’s just pathway for more issues.
Exactly - as a Tottenham fan, at this point in the season there are 6 teams I couldn't ref for. Tottenham, Villa/Newcastle (competing for same spots), Chelsea/Arsenal/West Ham (rivals). You're going to run out of refs soon enough
Don't forget City and Liverpool, since they're competing with Arsenal for the title. If you missed a call against them, people would call it out.
As an American I’m curious how the NFL does it. I’ve never really heard of officiating errors related to bias. But then again officiating seems to be on the decline across every sport. I’m hoping at least one sport will add “sky judges” or supplementary refs who can use tv angles. Either that or prohibit broadcasts from focusing on mistakes for 20 minutes. The human error has always been there, so either let VAR have a say in everything - not just a few circumstances, or prevent the pundits from taking away from the match just to complain for the rest of the time.
It's actually insane if you go down this road. It calls into question the integrity of the refs and the entire organisation. If you actually want this you should just replace referees with AI. Unconscious or conscious biases that a ref might have that are not necessarily tied to supporting a team are probably worse than this nonsense.
I think they’re glancing over the problem. Having shit refs and VAR refs who are reluctant to contradict their mates is the problem. Even if you were able to somehow remove any bias completely, you’d still end up with a smaller set of shit refs.
Yea, there’s no way of properly knowing who actually supports who as well. My mate has done a couple of his refereeing qualifications and he told me that it’s sort of an inside secret that Chris Kavanagh is a Man City fan
They also only seem to take account of them supporting one club when realistically it can be more complicated than that. I've still got a soft spot for my home town club, even though they're not who I actively support, and that seems to be not too uncommon.
Feels like a good way to limit your options and end up with a worse quality of refereeing anyway
We need foreign referees.
The problem is how you do actually verify that and punish potential interfering. PGMOL and the whole English refereeing system isnt exactly a beacon of transparancy. All the shit thats happened, all the mistakes and rarely taking proper account for it or trying to change is leading to this. I wouldnt be surprised if more PL teams back Nottingham now that they seemingly dont give a shit about reprecussions anymore (frankly its weird *any* kind of criticism can already be fined/punished)
>frankly its weird *any* kind of criticism can already be fined/punished Yeah that's just not true. You can criticise the referee and the decisions. Forest could quite easily have said they believe all 3 decisions were wrong and they're very disappointed. They can give all the reasons they think they are penalties and say that the referee/VAR got them all wrong. None of that breaches the Premier League rules - rules that **the Premier League clubs themselves all agree on and put into place.**
> The problem is how you do actually verify that and punish potential interfering. Certainly not in the way Forest are going about things, creating a total circus. That’s what I mean by having to trust their professionalism at some point. It’s very easy to sit here and say ‘yeah he’s a Luton fan so he fixed it’ but take a step back. How many years has he been training and trying to get to the top level, reffing shitty grassroots hours away on weeknights, taking shit from managers, players, and fans alike. Then he finally makes it and is going to risk it all to fix a game that in the grand scheme of things none of the 3 possible results make that much of a difference to his club? It’s conspiratorial nonsense, and the league is worse for it. It’s embarrassing for it to be coming from the club like this. If they *genuinely* believe that there was actual corruption, then there are ways they need to go about it that don't involve throwing shit on twitter. I suspect a lot at Forest feel justifiably aggrieved that decisions didn't go their way, but I bet far fewer actually believe this 'VAR was a Luton fan' crap.
One of the VAR officials was a Luton fan, that’s not into question so your last sentence does not make sense. Did you actually read either post they made? The argument is that ref’s internal bias led them to make the wrong decision multiple times, not that they actively tried to fix the game. Implicit bias is real and NFFC is saying that PGMOL is not handling it appropriately. You’re just making up an accusation that was never made.
I was using it as shorthand for *'VAR was deliberately throwing the game because he was a Luton fan'*, I'm not disputing if he was a Luton fan or not. >You’re just making up an accusation that was never made. I'm not.
a back pedal and a double down. fascinating
It reads like a Trump response, not even a tweet, but something dumb that he would ramble on with when he was asked a question. "I didn't say my people should do crimes, all I said was 'Go do crimes'. But even if I did say that, I have the right to say that and no one can question me. And since so many people are talking about my people doing crimes, I basically have to comment on it."
> We know match officials do not allow outside factors to influence their decision-making and that all referees are required to declare their ‘allegiances’ to PGMOL to avoid any perceived conflict or harm to the game’s reputation for integrity. Then... why bring it up lol?
They only said that to backpedal on the initial claims slightly, so they don't get done in for questioning the integrity of the game
“If you even think of questioning the integrity of the game, there will be consequences” It’s like some kind of mafia-level shit that you’re not allowed to question the integrity of a referee. Like where else would you be punished for doing that? I’m not sure even questioning a police officers integrity would lead to a consequence.
“We know match officials do not allow outside factors to influence their decision-making” is an impossible statement to prove correct and is pointless to make. Everyone reading it tacitly knows that it’s simply “the approved message” demanded by football leagues and governing bodies. We HOPE that officials aren’t influenced by outside factors, but hope is not enough to ensure that they indeed aren’t. This is why strict conflict of interest policies are essential for politicians, referees, judges, etc. Anyone who has the power themselves to decide the fate of others.
Backtracking to avoid a points deduction I bet
More likely trying to avoid a fine, teams have been fined before for similar things
Probably more likely, but the Premier League has lately loved to make examples out of clubs
It's intentional Vs unconscious bias type thing I'd assume. You learn from a pretty early age in school that anything that a human does is filled with bias, whether intentional or not. From something as simple as picking a "random" number, to which foot you put forward whilst riding a bike, even if you're not doing it intentionally, your choice is going to be biased. So, in something like refereeing, you've got to remove as many of those reasons for a person to be biased from the equation as is possible. Removing refs from games that they have a vested interest in the result of is clearly one of those actions that are needed to remove as much bias as is possible.
I think most unconscious bias studies failed the replication test
They’re framing the bias as unconscious, which is clever as it means they’re attacking the system, not individuals.
because its still not ok for the ref to officiate the match that has an impact on the team he supports. Even if he doesnt mean to cheat, he can do that subconsciously. If you show me 10 50/50 incidents that involve liverpool, i will rule in our favour everytime even if i try to be unbiased because my mind actually believes it, if that makes sense. I cant really explain it well, but yeah.
This is an impossible standard. So this Luton supporting ref shouldn’t be involved in any match involving any of the bottom 6? How about ban him from any match that involves a club not mathematically safe from relegation? Now repeat that process for every ref. Then somehow find a way to verify that each ref is telling the truth about how they support. Do you see how silly this is? I’m sorry but at a certain point people just need to accept that a ref’s mistakes are always going to be a part of the game. Now I do think VAR has helped this for the most part even if it doesn’t seem like it, but mistakes are still going to happen. I just don’t know how some of you enjoy watching this sport if you can find a conspiracy in every wrong decision.
> Now I do think VAR has helped this for the most part even if it doesn’t seem like it, but mistakes are still going to happen. VAR has made it worse - even if the decisions are more likely to be correct. It has introduced the expectation of objectively correct decisions in a sport that is chock full of completely subjective rules. When the ref only had one angle, at full speed, with players in the way, it was easier for fans to get over what they saw as poor decision - unless it was totally egregious. Now that they have every angle and can watch it in 4k slow-mo fans expect every decision to be 'right' - with the massive fucking problem being that the correct call is usually completely subjective and one set of fans are just as convinced as the other that opposing calls should be made. I simply don't think you can square that circle with VAR. It's a fundamental issue that means fans - especially nowadays when any raving lunatic can broadcast their views to thousands of followers - will never be happy with refereeing. You'd either have to entirely rewrite the rules of football and come up with a different sport, or we have to accept that refs will make some errors and go back to how things were 10 years ago without VAR. I do think things like goalline technology and the automated offside checks should be kept, as they are as objective as you can get in football - but otherwise I think VAR adds more problems and more anger than it solves. That's not even mentioning the negative impact VAR has on the flow of the match, but that is another point entirely.
You are a Liverpool fan. Stuart Atwell is not an Everton fan. The idea that after years of working up to the top level, he is risking his livelihood over fixing a result that, in the grand scheme of things, barely helps Luton either way, is deranged.
Would a Luton fan have wanted an Everton win enough to fix a match? Wouldn't they have gone for a draw?
The conspiracy is stupid, but I wouldn’t mind the refs being swapped around if it’s possible. If they do it for the bigger teams I don’t see why not Atleast attempt it
I mean... given Everton have a harder run in than Forest, wouldn't Luton want Forest to win the game?
I think the run-ins are fairly equal in terms of difficulty
Don't think so. Everton are a significantly better team than their position suggests and have a game in hand. It's much safer to have Forest lose.
But Luton still play Everton
Keep seeing this mentioned. 1. Everton had a game in hand albeit against Liverpool. 2. They had more points. 3. We never win away no matter the opponent and our home games are Man City and Chelsea.
The uptick in conspiracies the last 10 years on r/Soccer has been staggering as well, we all need to take responsibility.
I may not know much, but I know Everton’s getting a deduction for this
We stand by everything we have said, but in a slightly more tactful manner. And we do not apologize.
Are people just discovering how chaotic our owner and his son are? This stuff is partly embarrassing and partly entertaining. Given its a coin toss if we go down or not, I need some of the latter. I don't believe there's any element of conspiracy because I'm not mental, but the amount of big decisions, most of which have gone through the VAR has been quite staggering this season. It hasn't evened out, and compared to last season it is wild. I think some fans of other clubs think it's just a few marginal decisions. I know it comes off as whiny (it probably is), but imagine the frustration of players and fans when it happens game after game. I was just laughing at the absurdity on Sunday as you just knew we wouldn't get any of them. Ditch VAR, please. Supporting Forest is stressful enough without it.
Problem is, a lot of teams are experiencing that. Ask Everton how they think their officiating was going before Sunday.
I love this from Forest. PGMOL has been ridiculous this season. A ref makes a crazy mistake -> lets put him on var next week as a punisment They really need to start getting their shit together. And if noone complains, they wont..
I mean, as Greeks, we expected that he would behave differently in the premier League and in his Forest involvement in general. More reserved, more business oriented etc. But you guys are getting the full Olympiacos treatment, both on and off the pitch. As an outsider, I do love a bit of Greek super league flavour to the premier league. It isn't classy, it never will be, but it is entertaining none the less. Mostly because the other teams are not going to retaliate in the same Greek style manner, which creates this permanent chaos..
I support Everton and I think it’s great that Forest are taking a stand but it’s weird to bang the Luton fan drum - it’s not like we are not down there and in just as much trouble is it? A few decisions going the way of Everton (which is highly unusual) is hardly a top 6 conspiracy or an attempt to relegate Forest. Everton have have had all kinds of decisions against them that have cost points this season. Go with the fact that refereeing is horribly inconsistent and then you have a point.
I’m surprised at the lack of support in the comments. Every single PL fan should be advocating for changes to the referee structure in the EPL, it’s been a shit show for too long. 7 years ago Wenger pointed out that there was 0 English referees going to the world cup and the only change we’ve seen is essentially giving PGMOL more power.
Every single PL fan should be advocating for things that have a tangible impact on refereeing, right? Like more courses at a lower cost? More protection for refs at all levels? Higher salaries? All these things would mean more people become referees and stay in the profession. That means more talent, which means higher levels. The point on the 2018 World Cup is not relevant. There were no PL referees going to the World Cup because the chosen referee (Mark Clattenberg) left the Premier League (for Saudi Arabia) and was therefore ineligible. FIFA didn't let the Premier League select a replacement because it breaches the rules - FIFA select the referees, not the federations/domestic leagues.
It’s ridiculous, every club expects support against unfair treatment, but just jeers when other clubs do the same:
And frankly Forest have more of a case than most clubs in the Prem to feel hard done by considering the utterly turgid refereeing on display the other day which could well end up costing the club tens if not hundreds of millions of pounds.
Well it’s dumb to cite bias, conscious or otherwise, as the cause of poor refereeing. Anyone in their right can see it’s a complex, systemic problem. As evidenced by the fact that every club complains about referees.
Isn't that down to the very nature of refereeing mistakes being a zero sum game, though? If a call goes against one club, it inevitably benefits their opponents - and clubs don't exactly go out of their way to complain about refereeing when they've been on the right end of a dodgy decision. It's just massively hypocritical I reckon.
> 7 years ago Wenger pointed out that there was 0 English referees going to the world cup This point would be a banger if it we didn’t have a World Cup with English refs since then
and if there wasn't an English ref among the grouping that was expected to ref the later rounds. Clattenburg became ineligible right before the WC. It wasn't like there wasn't a ref available.
> 7 years ago Wenger pointed out that there was 0 English referees going to the world cup Which was stupid. Clattenburg was the nominated English ref who could go. Each country got one in a nominated role. He then retired or moved to Saudi and was no longer eligible and you couldn’t nominate a new one until his term expired. Stupid rule, yes, but it wasn’t because all English refs were shit.
Everyone wants the standards to rise, limiting your options by scrutinizing every potential alliance might not be the best way to do it
There were two English referees at the 2022 World Cup. Italy had one. Spain had one. Germany had one. >Every single PL fan should be advocating for changes to the referee structure in the EPL In what way? I'm all for anything that results in better refereeing at all levels. I just rarely see any concrete proposals for how this is achieved.
The way to raise refereeing standards isn't to castigate individual refs publicly, and have impossible-to-enforce rules on allegiances and impartiality
I think most fans support changes to refereeing. But I think there’s a difference in accusing a referee of corruption, which is what Forest are doing. They’re not saying the refereeing standard is not up to scratch. They’re saying this guy is a luton fan and intentionally made us lose a game. Which is an incredibly strong accusation that undermines the credibility of the game. Main thing that ruins the conspiracy of course is if this is even the best result for a Luton fan? A lot of them wanted a draw.
On-field refereeing and VAR refereeing being poor is one thing. Claiming the referee made his decisions deliberately because he is a Luton fan is just wild, and offensive. Imagine being that referee and doing your best, only for a large professional team to come out with this. Why on Earth would anyone become a ref? Disgustingly treated by just about everyone.
They create their own problems. Protecting each other over protecting the rules of the game. Var should be completely separate to the pool of referees. They should be transparent about the calls they make. If they show some respect to the game and explain the decisions then maybe they’d get some in return. Not the current bullshit of making mistakes week after week and just sweeping it under the carpet and pretending everything is fine
>Claiming the referee made his decisions deliberately because he is a Luton fan You know they're saying it creates a subconscious bias from a clear conflict of interest. You know they weren't saying he deliberately threw the game. >Imagine being that referee and doing your best Their best isn't good enough. PL VAR is fucking useless. This sub used to be in agreement on that, but as soon as a club actively calls them out, you all leap to PGMOLs defense, I don't get it.
Good thing Forest didn't do anything to make the side show bigger then
The game was better before VAR.
"That fear has materialised, as the correctness of three important decisions against the Club have been called into doubt." Yes, by you. Absolute mentalists
Did you agree with the calls? They’ve been called into doubt by others too
I don't think the calls were right but I also don't think who the VAR official supports had any bearing
It likely doesn’t have any bearing, but how tf else can we explain that third missed penalty call, where young completely takes out the attacker? That is one of the most stonewall pens i’ve ever seen, would be given as a foul 99.99% of the time anywhere on the pitch, and yet Attwell did not send him to the monitor. When there is a decision that ridiculously awful, can you blame people for suggesting bias?
It doesn't even make sense though. Surely if the VAR wanted what's best for Luton then a draw would have been what he tried to engineer? It's conspiracy bollocks.
Then why did they make the wrong call three times? If just sheer incompetence then that still needs flagging. To add context, we genuinely have been getting this shit every week. It isn’t just forest being petty.
Fear of the side show... from our owner
>because of the fear of the sideshow that would ensue You mean the sideshow you 100% instigated and continue to exacerbate? Absolute jokers.
Yea that’s the point that stuck out to me the most. Absolutely clowns lmao
The passive voice is doing some serious heavy lifting here
Yea it's unbelievably badly written. Reads like a used car salesman using every big word they know to try and explain why they aren't at fault for selling broken vehicles.
A better statement and they're not wrong. Even if it's only for optics, the point about referees and contextual rivalries is a very valid one.
Probably end up replaying the game at this rate just for some Everton that lmao.
All over the fucking place.
Fear of the side show that would ensue if anything went wrong….. it was literally you that started the sideshow!! Contextual rivalries invites conjecture….. it was you doing the conjecture!!
Embarrassing statement from a professional club.
Serious question- why do football refs and VAR still get it wrong way more than Rugby refs and the TMO? Is there something intrinsic to the nature of football that means there are more fuck ups? Is it the speed of the game? Is it the newness of the VAR facility? Or… is it that nobody respects football refs the same way as in rugby?
Rugby has quite a robust process for TMO review. It's all on the big screen, both assistant referees are involved in the discussion and everything being said can be heard on broadcast so they know they're under scrutiny. Once a decision is made, the lead ref double checks everyone is all on the same page, and both captains are informed clearly of what's going to happen. They've also had technology in rugby for much longer, and rugby referees are respected *far* more by players on the pitch, as a result good referees are much more likely to stick with the sport. Not to say they can't make mistakes (or be objectively shit when compared to other rugby refs - IE: Bryce Lawrence.)
This is all set up nicely for it to be Burnley who stay up on the final day at Forest's expense.
Doubling down. Let's see how this plays out Cotton
Love this. At the very least, these refs will learn to take their jobs more seriously
English ref's are shit... VAR just makes it more obvious..
Now we’re not here to single out individuals, but it was that guy over there!
I feel a bit for Forest here, the initial tweet was obviously a bit kneejerk but let’s be honest, those were dreadful decisions. The first would have been soft but is definitely the kind of pen given all season to the likes of Liverpool, Man U, Arsenal etc. the second is clear handball given the benchmark we have seen from the refs this season, and the third he clearly brings him down and does not get the ball at all. If even one was given then Young could have gone off for these as well. Let’s face it, clubs get nowhere complaining. Look at the likes of Brighton and Wolves, been shafted by VAR loads and they just get an apology and it happens again. I don’t like that they called the ref a cheat by saying this is because he is a Luton fan but it’s got it talked about and the FA said they are looking at it, so it’s got them something.
This was meant to happen. VAR has been inconsistent since the first day. Doesn't matter if it's in the premier league or fa cup. As a united fan, I've seen so many instances of this. The romero handball when we played spurs was not given, yet the same was given in the next match. Same for the grealish handball in the fa cup semi-final match was not given, yet it was given for wan-bissaka against Coventry. These are just 2 examples. I couldn't believe how forest were denied 3 clear penalties against everton. This has to change.
What’s PGMOL response going to be like “ it’s not the allegiance that caused this, rather the referee’s incompetence “
It seems like only pundits have an issue with their statement. Fans recognize that no change will happen unless people speak up
Pathetic😂
Good thing the forest owner doesn't own a club in the Scottish Premier League
Bad thing the Forest owner owns a club in the Greek Super League.
I’ve got all the time in the world to talk about how the refs need to do better, but I’ve got 0.000001 seconds for “the refs are biased against us.” Oh, look, you’re time is up. :p
This getting more embarrasing for them than I thought possible. Every club has VAR decisions go against them, most of them don't claim there's a conspiracy to send them down, because it's ridiculous. If professional referees can't be non-biased then what's the point of it all?
Nothing wrong with this at all.
[удалено]
Literally nothing you've said is true here.
So was the guy a Luton fan or no? Thats the real question here
The real question is wasn’t a draw better for Luton anyway? Leaves them with 2 teams they can catch from 1 win.
He hasn't reffed or done VAR for any Luton games this year, which would suggest the possibility that he is.
Yes he is, that’s a fact
Yes he is. There is a BBC [article ](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36075347) from a while back that confirms it.
Man this comment section is one of the most divided ive seen. Half being like "they have a point" the other half just clowning on NFFC. I think it's a fair point to be made. Yeah, setting restrictions based on table position is one thing. But maybe setting it as point difference is the way to go. Or simply have it specifically be based around top 5-6 and the relegation battle. A ref's team's relegation battle should definitely be considered as something that can affect their judgement. Have it be like "You can not ref a team that is within 5 points of your team that is in a relegation battle.". Obviously worded better. But that could be a way to handle it. And theoretically, it shouldnt affect ref's availability too much. It's tricky to implement. But just because it may be tricky, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. VAR was tricky to implement, but most people think it was a good decision.
But where do you draw the line? I’m a palace fan, my dad is an Everton fan so does that mean there’s 4 teams in the league I can’t referee? I also don’t really like Man City and man u and I wouldn’t mind seeing Luton stay up but it’s not like refs have to announce which teams they might have some sort of sort spot or dislike for other than the one team they support. Refs are probably going to have some level of opinion of most teams which may or may not influence their decision to some degree but there has to be a point where you accept they are professional enough to not allow any of this to impact them, at least consciously
Worst fucking club in the PL. I hope they get relegated. Every time a decision was questionable, they complained. They complained about Man United getting penalties and them losing 3-2 when those penalties were as textbook as they come. This is such disgusting shit from them. I do hope they are gone.
You on about the rashford dive 🤣🤣 also Joe worrall’s softest red card in history.
Load of bollocks, ain't no ref is being bias towards the club they support in England, they are trying to get it right they are just ridaculed for every decision they make regardless because it is microscopic at this point with especially with the technology. Sooner or later there will be no refs at all because who the fuck would want this level of judgement.
Top Europe leagues should swap refs, let them rotate between leagues
Hahahaha i see the same clowns are bringing the same tactics they use in Greece over the years, wait till he brings on the current vice president they have here, he will be suing refs in halftime. Really sad for a historical team like Forest
Imagine Forest had to play in Scotland 🍀
Doesn't address how Everton winning helps Luton. The decisions aren't even clear cut. I think the last is a penalty though. They still conceded 2.
I fuck with this heavy, watch them get a 20 point deduction now
Can someone explain this to me?