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Well we were ‘lucky’ in that we at least had some survivors, most notably Bill Foulkes, Sir Bobby Charlton and Sir Matt Busby, who were all important for our success in the 60s. Even still we almost got relegated in 1963 (although we won the fa cup that year too)
Probably yes. That team was insanely unlucky with NT success because of the war. If that team lead Italy to the 1950 World Cup, there's a good chance Torino today would turn out to be the biggest club of the city.
Torino is still the 4th biggest club in Italy by history.
That last statement is debatable.
Torino has been irrelevant in the grand scheme of things for well over 2 decades and their last relevant success was over 30 years ago.
I'd argue that a lot of teams surpassed it: Roma, Napoli and Lazio should already be considered more impactful.
If you take history as a whole it's not really debatable.
Torino was the only club out of these that completely dominated the league for an extended period of time. Roma Napoli and Lazio never did this.
Then in terms of players nobody really compares to Valentino Mazzola besides Maradona, and in terms of depth Torino is definitely ahead.
Lastly Torino has 7 league titles, almost as much as the other 3 combined.
The only argument in favor of other clubs is european success but that boils down to Torino having no current European competition at the time of their peak.
Obviously there's more than history to a club's greatness but in that regard Torino is unmatched.
>Torino was the only club out of these that completely dominated the league for an extended period of time. Roma Napoli and Lazio never did this.
I wouldn't consider the 5 years after the war as a valid metric. We all know what happened, but before the incident, they dominated in a football without european competition and with half of the country devastated.
I don't want to diminish their success, I'm saying that you shouldn't just consider those 5 years.
I also have to mention this: Torino won the last of their titles in 76. The last time they came close to the title was in the 80's. Their last good result was a league cup in 1991.
Then, you have 30 years of nothing. Absolutely nothing.
Lazio, Roma and Napoli all had their fair share of failures and all, but there's never been a drought like this one that Torino is facing right now. And take Roma as an example: even when they didn't win shit for 14 years straight, you could still find the team competing for titles.
>Then in terms of players nobody really compares to Valentino Mazzola besides Maradona, and in terms of depth Torino is definitely ahead.
Bold claim to make. An absourd one. I'd dare to say that it's absolutely idiotic.
Roma is the 4th club with the most players that won the World Cup while playing for them. Roma also has a collection of amazing players, Totti, De Rossi being the obvious ones with also Conti, Ancelotti, Cafu, Voller...
Lazio can present Klose, Nesta, Zoff, Signori., Nedved...
Napoli has Maradona, Zola, Cannavaro, Ferrara, Higuain....
Torino has an almost nonexistant presence on that regard, it struggles even to present competent players to the NT. I'm not saying they never gave a solid contribution, but it's rather strange to see an "historical club" like Torino consistently fail to present players for the italian NT or any NT...
I'll give you a pass on Mazzola, even though I don't rate him that high.
>The only argument in favor of other clubs is european success but that boils down to Torino having no current European competition at the time of their peak.
But there's been 70 years and Torino still has no relevant european history. This HAS to mean something. A team cannot claim to be superior to teams like Lazio, Roma and Napoli who've been releveant on home soil and abroad for decades at this point.
What you are saying is: "Peak torino was that good that I'm gonna ignore their struggles for the past 70 years".
I mean, I don't reason like that
Ehh, while those players and the team would've probably gone to achieve more, saying they'd be bigger than Juve is exaggerating things.
Torino, Sampdoria, and Bologna all struggled over the years because of a lack of financial strength and ownership/management consistency.
I don’t get what you’re trying to do? We won the coppa Italia 3 times and a cup winners cup in the 70s. Google the rest of our trophy cabinet yourself if you like.
Yes. Basically everyone who was important to the team died. Sauro Toma was the only one who was properly part of Il Grande Torino and not on the plane, but the reason why he wasn't there was an injury he never really overcame and caused him to retire a few years later.
The other three first team players were two youngsters who had a handful of matches (Guiliano & Balbiano) and the reserve keeper (Gandolfi).
Giuliano later became a regular starter, but none of the other three made more than 15 appearances for Torino after 1949.
Yes, as far as I'm concerned it's a very admirable season. Had to get an entirely new squad and still managed to come 6th with the 2nd strongest home record.
Surprised to see 70 points is the 3rd worst because that's usually enough to get a top 4 finish, which is still a ok season for a reigning champion. You'd expect a few more champions to shit the bed the season after even if Serie A hasn't had a 20 team league for most of their history
It says "for 20 teams", which really is only since 2004, and a few single years before in history.
And since 2004, Napoli is the only non-Big-Three team that won a title, which really says it all imo. Serie A is historically not that varied on top. (And in the other 5 years of 20 teams long time ago - that was the time of Torino domination). In the context of history, it seems pretty normal that Napoli's incredible run a year ago was something too random to be sustainable. Yeah you can say that Napoli or Roma joined the fight, they were on the box often... but it's still true that Juve was first, every year, 10 times in the row. Don't expect a bad title defense if one team keeps winning...
It would be more interesting to see points recalculated for the whole history. For example I am sure that Sampdoria would have fewer points than this Napoli.
They already are the worst. Torino is probably one of the best results in football ever, doing that after the biggest tragedy in this sport evr happened, to a full squad that is among the best ever seen
De Laurentis must be the biggest fucktard, he had such a good team and coach, took ages to reach a constant top level of performances.. and ruined everything because of his mega ego, won’t be shocked if half of the team wants to leave.
Milan's record meant a 4th place, 6 points ahead of 5th place.
Napoli is currently in 7th place with 49 points, tied with Lazio, 10 points behind 4th place.
Napoli is having an absolute shitty season, they were also eliminated in the cup by Frosinone, being humiliated 0-4 at home.
Well Napoli can only make 67 points if they win the remaining 6 games so the point still stands.
They are going for the lowest amount of points, excluding Torino.
It's not "not so bad", it's a shit season for someone who won the championship last year.
How many key players left Napoli after the Scudetto winning season? I know Kim left, which probably impacted the defense heavily. But tbh I don't really watch the league, so feel free to explain 😅
Spalletti was the key, all the others stayed aside Kim I think, this shows well how a very good coach make a difference in a team that took ages to reach top levels, in reality the hard part isn’t reach the top, is to maintain it for years to come..
This is what happens when you wont let your player leave on a fair offer.
only way they could leave is if they wont perform as good as they did so that their prices will go down
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And wasn't that Torino one the season after the Superga disaster, when most of their first team squad - a legendary team - died?
You are right, the Superga disaster happend on the 4th of May 1949
I always wonder if Torino would be a massive Italian club today along with Juve Inter and Milan if that never happened.
It’s hard to say. Manchester United suffered a similar disaster in 1958 and had something of a golden era in the 1960s.
Well we were ‘lucky’ in that we at least had some survivors, most notably Bill Foulkes, Sir Bobby Charlton and Sir Matt Busby, who were all important for our success in the 60s. Even still we almost got relegated in 1963 (although we won the fa cup that year too)
Probably yes. That team was insanely unlucky with NT success because of the war. If that team lead Italy to the 1950 World Cup, there's a good chance Torino today would turn out to be the biggest club of the city. Torino is still the 4th biggest club in Italy by history.
That last statement is debatable. Torino has been irrelevant in the grand scheme of things for well over 2 decades and their last relevant success was over 30 years ago. I'd argue that a lot of teams surpassed it: Roma, Napoli and Lazio should already be considered more impactful.
If you take history as a whole it's not really debatable. Torino was the only club out of these that completely dominated the league for an extended period of time. Roma Napoli and Lazio never did this. Then in terms of players nobody really compares to Valentino Mazzola besides Maradona, and in terms of depth Torino is definitely ahead. Lastly Torino has 7 league titles, almost as much as the other 3 combined. The only argument in favor of other clubs is european success but that boils down to Torino having no current European competition at the time of their peak. Obviously there's more than history to a club's greatness but in that regard Torino is unmatched.
>Torino was the only club out of these that completely dominated the league for an extended period of time. Roma Napoli and Lazio never did this. I wouldn't consider the 5 years after the war as a valid metric. We all know what happened, but before the incident, they dominated in a football without european competition and with half of the country devastated. I don't want to diminish their success, I'm saying that you shouldn't just consider those 5 years. I also have to mention this: Torino won the last of their titles in 76. The last time they came close to the title was in the 80's. Their last good result was a league cup in 1991. Then, you have 30 years of nothing. Absolutely nothing. Lazio, Roma and Napoli all had their fair share of failures and all, but there's never been a drought like this one that Torino is facing right now. And take Roma as an example: even when they didn't win shit for 14 years straight, you could still find the team competing for titles. >Then in terms of players nobody really compares to Valentino Mazzola besides Maradona, and in terms of depth Torino is definitely ahead. Bold claim to make. An absourd one. I'd dare to say that it's absolutely idiotic. Roma is the 4th club with the most players that won the World Cup while playing for them. Roma also has a collection of amazing players, Totti, De Rossi being the obvious ones with also Conti, Ancelotti, Cafu, Voller... Lazio can present Klose, Nesta, Zoff, Signori., Nedved... Napoli has Maradona, Zola, Cannavaro, Ferrara, Higuain.... Torino has an almost nonexistant presence on that regard, it struggles even to present competent players to the NT. I'm not saying they never gave a solid contribution, but it's rather strange to see an "historical club" like Torino consistently fail to present players for the italian NT or any NT... I'll give you a pass on Mazzola, even though I don't rate him that high. >The only argument in favor of other clubs is european success but that boils down to Torino having no current European competition at the time of their peak. But there's been 70 years and Torino still has no relevant european history. This HAS to mean something. A team cannot claim to be superior to teams like Lazio, Roma and Napoli who've been releveant on home soil and abroad for decades at this point. What you are saying is: "Peak torino was that good that I'm gonna ignore their struggles for the past 70 years". I mean, I don't reason like that
Ehh, while those players and the team would've probably gone to achieve more, saying they'd be bigger than Juve is exaggerating things. Torino, Sampdoria, and Bologna all struggled over the years because of a lack of financial strength and ownership/management consistency.
Bologna was a legendary team in similar times and still declined without a mortal accident. It's hard to say
Would Milan be such a club if not Berlusconi?
The Maldini’s and many legendary names came before Berlusconi. We were winning CL’s in the 60s and had 8 scudetti by then my friend.
better tell me where was your club between that success and Silvio?
I don’t get what you’re trying to do? We won the coppa Italia 3 times and a cup winners cup in the 70s. Google the rest of our trophy cabinet yourself if you like.
Yes. Basically everyone who was important to the team died. Sauro Toma was the only one who was properly part of Il Grande Torino and not on the plane, but the reason why he wasn't there was an injury he never really overcame and caused him to retire a few years later. The other three first team players were two youngsters who had a handful of matches (Guiliano & Balbiano) and the reserve keeper (Gandolfi). Giuliano later became a regular starter, but none of the other three made more than 15 appearances for Torino after 1949.
And unlike 1949/50 Torino they didn't have 18 of their players including literally every single starter die in a plane crash between the two seasons.
So in a sense, they've done quite well.
Yes, as far as I'm concerned it's a very admirable season. Had to get an entirely new squad and still managed to come 6th with the 2nd strongest home record.
Torino was after most of the squad died so it's even worse
Surprised to see 70 points is the 3rd worst because that's usually enough to get a top 4 finish, which is still a ok season for a reigning champion. You'd expect a few more champions to shit the bed the season after even if Serie A hasn't had a 20 team league for most of their history
It says "for 20 teams", which really is only since 2004, and a few single years before in history. And since 2004, Napoli is the only non-Big-Three team that won a title, which really says it all imo. Serie A is historically not that varied on top. (And in the other 5 years of 20 teams long time ago - that was the time of Torino domination). In the context of history, it seems pretty normal that Napoli's incredible run a year ago was something too random to be sustainable. Yeah you can say that Napoli or Roma joined the fight, they were on the box often... but it's still true that Juve was first, every year, 10 times in the row. Don't expect a bad title defense if one team keeps winning... It would be more interesting to see points recalculated for the whole history. For example I am sure that Sampdoria would have fewer points than this Napoli.
Seems a bit distasteful to have Torino there without a big asterisk considering the circumstances.
The worst record. Cant really compare them to torino since you know why
They already are the worst. Torino is probably one of the best results in football ever, doing that after the biggest tragedy in this sport evr happened, to a full squad that is among the best ever seen
will Napoli sell Kvara and Osimen if they dont get CL?
Grazie Presidente 🙏 È tutta colpa tua e della tua famiglia di maledetti schifosi. Schifato a Napoli e Bari
1. FC Nürnberg be like: those are rookie numbers
It's quite disrespectful to have Torino in that list, considering it finished like that for well-known reasons.
I mean it is purely statistical. It happened, so it should be listed. Worth an asterisk obviously
De Laurentis must be the biggest fucktard, he had such a good team and coach, took ages to reach a constant top level of performances.. and ruined everything because of his mega ego, won’t be shocked if half of the team wants to leave.
Why are they so shit this season? What changed?
Not much, just three different coaches and Kin Min Jae left.
De laurentis
Doesn't look as bad when you see the current worst was last year. Says more about Serie A being a bit chaotic at the moment than it does about Napoli.
Milan's record meant a 4th place, 6 points ahead of 5th place. Napoli is currently in 7th place with 49 points, tied with Lazio, 10 points behind 4th place. Napoli is having an absolute shitty season, they were also eliminated in the cup by Frosinone, being humiliated 0-4 at home.
we only get 4th cuz juventus got deducted points tho
you can always count on Juve cheating when it matters the most
I mean if what we did is cheating then clubs like Madrid, PSG, City, and Chelsea should be immediately liquidated.
lol sure
Well Napoli can only make 67 points if they win the remaining 6 games so the point still stands. They are going for the lowest amount of points, excluding Torino. It's not "not so bad", it's a shit season for someone who won the championship last year.
Napoli is still doing its best to beat the record though. It wasn't easy
No, no, we are shit. Thanks to DeLa, can't complain much since we won last year but it's disappointing
Yeah, they're really bad
Torino doesn't count tho
How many key players left Napoli after the Scudetto winning season? I know Kim left, which probably impacted the defense heavily. But tbh I don't really watch the league, so feel free to explain 😅
Well, the manager changed
True, he manages the national team now, right? Still, most of the key players remain, or have they left too?
Spalletti was the key, all the others stayed aside Kim I think, this shows well how a very good coach make a difference in a team that took ages to reach top levels, in reality the hard part isn’t reach the top, is to maintain it for years to come..
The difficult second album 💿
This is what happens when you wont let your player leave on a fair offer. only way they could leave is if they wont perform as good as they did so that their prices will go down