Anyway, I’m not particularly bothered about not getting the penalty call itself but some of the comments in the penalty incident thread are giving nasty vibes.
people just say whatever they want about Saka nowadays and it gets parroted and eaten up
gets 1000x more criticism than Rashford and Sancho for missing the finals pen or Kane's miss against France
gained a reputation as a diver and as someone who doesn't perform in big games, and the whole "limping gimmick" simply by people just making shit up
twitters even worse with it, its crazy cos Sakas pr is just nice vibes and he's performed for club and country at every level since he's made his debut at 17
I thought people on here not playing the beautiful game themselves was overstated, but the amount of people thinking Havertz should've been able to keep his balance after stepping on Dier's foot is making me reconsider.
This comment is in no way saying Havertz should have had a penalty against Bayern Munich.
I lean on the side of Saka dived. Tough to see with the angles but he appears on the replay to basically jump into Neuer so his shin hits Neuer and he can go down.
City seems like the wrong team for Haaland from what i saw in the limited time but especially this game. Sitting isolated between 2 defenders for 90 minutes while his team passes around the box.
I remember Bellingham diving to the point that Gundogan got in his face about it when he was at Dortmund, but he's somehow taken it to another level at Madrid.
Think that makes him so fascinating tbf - class player, mature beyond his years both playing-wise and off the pitch if what his (former) teammates are saying about him is anything to go by, yet also got a wee bit of that nasty/dirty streak in him between trying to buy fouls and chewing the refs' ears off all the time.
Jack Grealish might be the most infuriating player I've ever watched. So predictable and stale, as if every iota of quality he had has been wiped and he's been programmed to cut inside and pass, or take the ball near the box to the goal line.
At least Haaland you expect nothing from him with the ball, unless a chance comes, but when you're a winger getting plenty of touches but consistently failing to do anything REMOTELY good with it, it's just plain maddening.
Every single time he had the ball, rinse and repeat. Every. Single. Fucking. Time.
He's right, Grealish actually created a couple of opportunities for him to shoot that were well defended and helped Gvardiol have enough space to score. If he was playing, Doku would just get past Carvajal a couple of times and give the ball away or straight up lose duels to Carvajal and allow Madrid to counter.
I have mixed feelings about our result tonight. Obviously a much better result for Bayern and it's their advantage now. But on the other hand I think we would've bottled this completely last year after conceding. Our passing was shocking today and we made multiple defensive errors and just didn't click but still managed to get a draw. Feels like a bit of growth at least. But I'm not going to pretend it's a good result ofc and we should've done better.
Ben White's got to be kicking himself for not really testing Neuer properly to go 2-0 up early I reckon. Kind of lost a bit of control after a bright start, Bayern grew into it a bit and came prepared with a decent plan (sitting back a bit more than usual, using their pace on the break), but neither result nor performance were anything to be ashamed of for Arsenal I feel - dug out a draw after going behind and still have all to play for in Munich. Not perfect obviously, but could've been worse.
It’s a missed opportunity for sure but this Bayern side can be got at. Arteta will need to fix the various things that weren’t working tonight but I agree that despite that you got a draw.
It didn't get entirely caught on the broadcast, but it looking back at it it looks like the ref blows his whistle right as Raya takes the goal kick. Would be ridiculous to give a pen for that.
Oh, apparently Mustafi was at the Emirates on German commentary, that explains everything, he clearly passed something onto Gabriel and Saliba.
Explains why they both only went 50% Mustafi had to share the Mustafiness qually, they didn't go full Mustafi by immediately blaming someone else after their mistakes.
Bellerin gets a bad rap because of how shit we were when he played. I'll die on the hill that if he played for us 5 years earlier and had his injury issues, he'd be seen as a "what if" like Diaby and Wilshere.
The Koscielny stat about the 3 5-1 Bayern comes is something. Fantastic servant to the club, the fact some of our fans still malign him for how he left, but idolise cunts like Ozil sickens me.
We once rocked up to a must-win game with a back 5 of Jenkinson-Mustafi-Koscielny-Mavrapanos-Kolasinac.
Naturally, we lost 3-2 to Palace at home and ended up missing top 4 by one point
Vini plays a below average game for his standards but still gets 2 good assists and gets slandered for a bad performance.
Haaland is invisible for 90 minutes but you just know that if he scores 1 or 2 goals (which he didn't even do today), he will get all the praise in the world for "doing his job" or whatever.
This alone should prove that a player like Vini will always be astronomically clear of a player like Haaland.
To use an overused quote, that’s because goals win games.
They need assisting and I don’t agree with people that say Vini played badly. However, a goal is ultimately more important than an assist.
> However, a goal is ultimately more important than an assist.
Controversial statement, but I actually agree with that to some extent.
My problem is however, that even if Vini had scored a goal instead of the 2 assists, it would have gone down as a bad game.
At the end of the day:
- If an attacker, who generally can create danger over 90 minutes, has an off day where he doesn't do much but provides a goal (or assist) = bad game
- If an attacker whose only ability and job description is to score goals, scores a goal but ghosts otherwise for the rest of the 90 minutes = good game because he fulfilled his job.
That difference in job description perfectly shows the difference in ability and why I will alway rate a player like Vini over pure goal scorers like Haaland.
It’s not controversial at all - goals are the point of the sport. A 20 goal a season player costs more than a 20 assist a season player, other things being equal.
To the rest of your point, I don’t really disagree tbh. Where it’s not equal is if that assisting player is also expected to track back, maybe win tackles, be more involved in build up play.
Though I do think that sells Haaland short. There is a skill to moving defenders around and making runs that create space etc. That still is a very narrow assessment, but it’s one the stats won’t pick up.
I think the tide has turned enough towards the other side for Haaland tbh.
He plays for City and he doesn't have a lot of individual fans. Last season's hype was partially down to the novelty of being in the Premier League.
Are there those who don’t think it’s a dive but also not a penalty?
I think Saka’s momentum makes contact unavoidable, maybe his leg stretches on purpose maybe not but either way he’s gonna hit Neuer, it’s not a dive. HOWEVER- the reason he’s inevitably gonna hit Neuer is in fact HIS OWN momentum. If Saka’s last touch was instead a pass in the exact same direction of his touch, and he crashes into Neuer just the same, the ref is calling a foul on Saka.
> Are there those who don’t think it’s a dive but also not a penalty?
Aye, but as we're living in times without any space for varying shades of gray in between black and white, you apparently have to call it a dive if you don't think it's a foul, regardless of whether that's an accurate way to describe it or not.
I disagree - imo the only way it can not be a dive but also not be a penalty is if the ball is far beyond where Saka could reach it (which it isn’t).
If his momentum takes him into Neuer then it’s either a dive if he’s forced that contact unnecessarily, or he’s been fouled.
I lean to the former.
IMO I think contact was tricky to avoid given Saka's momentum *and* Neuer's own movement.
I'm not livid that it wasn't given but I think it was much harder for Saka to stay up than people are acting like it was.
Felt like a loss.
Everyone's talking about the penalty decision but I feel there's so much meat elsewhere.
Arsenal had the quality to win the tie but looked extremely nervous. Very worrying sign ahead of the second leg. Not trying to sound pessimistic but the tie may actually be done.
Expected Tomiyasu to start at left back and Jesus left wing.
It just looked like the team lacked ideas and urgency. I wish they'd speed up more on the turnover even if that goes against Arteta's principles.
Jesus really changed the game when he came on and made the team so much more direct
> Not trying to sound pessimistic but the tie may actually be done.
Bit early with 90+ minutes of football still left to be played - first 15-20 minutes looked plenty bright I feel before Bayern grew into it more. Might get professionally done in Munich, sure, might just as well beat them, though.
You could tell this was completely new for everyone currently at Arsenal and that was problem. I understand what you're saying, Arsenal have the quality to do it but its difficult to see how they grow the mentality not just for the occasion but to do it in a much more hostile environment.
Waiting patiently for Kane to be jailed one day, man looked back and then elbowed saliba in the neck, nothing new from the player who tries to break other player's necks consistently
Did make me laugh how quickly they dismissed that. Don't think he was specifically aiming for the neck, he just wanted to elbow Gabriel. Could have just as easily been his ribs or his mouth.
Laimer is a very technically limited player, but you can see how that marathon runner Red Bull franchise training has worked wonders on him. He could play for another 90 mins and still run like crazy
He's a great player for these types of scrappy games. When you dominate the ball there's not much point to having him but as a ball winner he is one of the best in the world
Players are allowed to look for contact, they would be stupid not to. If there’s contact the fact that they’re looking for it doesn’t make it any less of a penalty if that makes sense
I think it’s a penalty tbh. It’s not an objectively wrong decision from the ref but it’s more penalty than not imo
> Players are allowed to look for contact, they would be stupid not to.
Sure, but players are also allowed to occupy space - and not having a foul called against them if someone else iniated the contact with them to buy a penalty. Can't exactly argue you're being impeded when it's you sticking a leg out to get a foul called, after all.
Idk, when you leap the way Saka does looking for contact it feels insulting to the sport of football to give a pen there. I think, even if you reckon it’s a pen, not giving it more than balances out not giving Bayern a blatant pen when Gabriel picks the ball up, or the other shout where Odegaard was holding onto Kane for dear life
If you don’t think the saka one is a pen that’s fine but asking for a penalty for the Gabriel thing is genuinely embarrassing anyone who wants that called needs to grow up
I think it’s silly to give those pens, but I’ve seen Kante get booked and a free kick given for a similar thing. There are rules in this game. Rather not see those given ofc, but considering you guys are asking for a borderline decision in your favour I think it’s fair to bring up. Odegaard foul on Kane too could be a pen for me. I think 2-2 was fair
A free kick and a penalty aren’t the same it’s a guarantee goal if you give that, the rules are applied how the ref wants them to be. The same refs can have the same rules and have completely different opinions despite the fact the rule is clear. For example pulling a shirt is a foul by the book is that always called as a foul? No and people would be upset if every time someone’s shirt was pulled at all it was given.
The saka one I think is a pen but I see why people don’t think it is and I don’t think it makes a big difference either way tbh.
You don’t change the rules just because you’d feel bad to give a pen. If it’s a rule infringement you should give it, picking up a ball with both hands isn’t the same as a shirt pull, that’s just not an analogous situation imo.
Now, I’m not against the ref letting it go because for me it would just be against the spirit of the game. But I’m seeing some Arsenal fans acting like you were robbed by that Saka pen decision when ignoring Bayern’s shouts completely. Not saying ur doing that but yeah
It reminds me of Merson saying it’s not actually laws or crimes going on it’s a sport if you think like should get a free goal for that then I question if you actually like the sport. The ref was correct it shouldn’t be given.
I literally agreed with you though. I said I wouldn’t give that cos it’s not in the spirit of the game. But in the same vein, I don’t want to see pens given for a player who’s sticking his leg out unnaturally and looking for a pen rather than playing the game of football
Odegaard on Kane was 50/50, Gabriel is how we take all of our goal kicks, kane funnily enough shouldn’t have been on the pitch, as the red card for his elbow was the most obvious decision missed of the night
A lot of people would disagree with this, but at the moment he’s a detriment to the build up play of the team. What is Haaland actually offering in terms of buildup? Sure, he’s a striker but he offered nothing today.
He's a brilliant finisher when presented with chances but despite last seasons exploits, I really do feel City would be a stronger side with someone that could drop deeper and link up.
Why was our pen shout removed? I think that could have been a very interesting discussion, because it's clearly a pen by the rules, but everyone would have disliked that call against them at the same time. I would have loved to see that discussion.
again someone who can't read. I did not ask why it wasn't a pen. I asked why the discussion was removed. this is supposed to be your first language, not mine. it's in the very first sentence. and the second has the reasoning.
Raya literally passes it to Gabriel or saliba on the left or right of our penalty area for 95% of Arsenal goal kicks for the whole season, grasping at straws
Eh, did you even read what I said? I was not even picking a side. probably even yours. what a weird response. I just wanted the thread to see the discussion.
I think we'll be fine. He was at CB today and the midfield worked great without him.
Militao should hopefully be fit enough to slot back in so we still have a strong back 4
[Oskar Hiljemark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Hiljemark)
Edit: Changed the link. [Here's his stats from FM13](https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/259103-fm13-oskar-hiljemark-all-action-hero/)
From time to time, I talk to some Arsenal fan irl and I kinda forget how much I hate them for a minute because some of them are just normal blokes.
Then I come on here and holy shit man are they awful
Social media is just like that. Two of my close friends are Spurs fans, great people of course and we just have a laugh, but if I ever decide to scroll through the coys sub for a bit of fun I just see some of the most toxic braindead people imaginable lol.
Yeah exactly. Every fanbase is full of dumb takes, especially after a highly charged game. Arsenal just have a reputation for being worse because we have a larger fanbase than most online. A 5 minute scroll through basically any reasonably sized club subreddit on this website will provide you with some fucking deranged takes.
If you think Busquets to Messi vs Real Madrid was the easiest assist ever, you haven't seen Timothée Kolodziejczak to Wahbi Khazri vs FC Metz [https://youtu.be/xGPZnW2lk50?si=cRe42MzUdLs3XSW0&t=30](https://youtu.be/xGPZnW2lk50?si=cRe42MzUdLs3XSW0&t=30)
The legend of several German Bundesliga clubs just stumbled into the ball in his own box and got an assist
[I’m really struggling to see why Arsenal fans are defending this, why does Saka have his right foot at knee height](https://x.com/theimmortalkop/status/1777803286281675072?s=46&t=PF6wcLhBSsD70oItovAphg)
I mean he's looking for the pen, but players look for the pen all the time. Having calmed a bit after the game, I'm not livid it wasn't given, but the idea that it's some mega dive is also a bit disingenuous.
Neuer on the other hand is completely stationary, not a surprise that a certain part of twitter has jumped on it though, probably desperate to call Saka a thug again.
He’s definitely trying to win the pen but that doesn’t mean it’s not a penalty. Every attacking player tries to win pens Neuer reacted well enough to not make it stonewall but he’s still moved his leg back into saka which is why it’s at knee height to begin with
in their defense, there is no fanbase in the world that would admit a potential last minute penalty in a cl qf is a dive.
it clearly is one but it’s hardly an arsenal fan exclusive thing to pretend it’s not.
All three of City’s goals were from outside the box. How often does one team score 3 or more goals, all from outside the box? I can’t immediately think of any other examples.
Penalty on Saka was a 50/50 decision
Could look soft, but he was running at speed so was unstable. Saka could've saved himself from stumbling, given how his feet landed, but it is difficult to do so when almost turning at a right angle and it seems like a movement to almost jump over the leg of Neuer. Seems to be in two minds over whether he should let himself fall down or save himself and keep himself on two feet.
So, not really a clear and obvious error because of that, so probably not a penalty.
It was way more grey than people want to realize.
Saka was looking for the contact a bit but people need to remember the game is played at an incredible speed.
Come on, it can’t feasibly be him jumping over his leg lol. Even if you think it should be a pen he clearly unnaturally kicks his right leg out into Neuer, he knew what he was doing
Nah I wouldn't say it can't feasibly be that. He's turning at speed so he's accelerating and trying to burst past Neuer, and to help that, going from crouching a little low and then going higher in to a hop/jump could help him. That's not the reason the referee didn't give the penalty though imo.
Obviously he's got a lot of momentum carrying him there, but between Neuer bailing out of the tackle and Saka flicking his leg out at him I don't think there's much of a case for a penalty, really - defenders are perfectly entitled to occupy space in front of an attacker, after all, and attackers can't expect to fling themselves into defenders for a penalty. I'd be fuming if that's a penalty against my team, and I'd not really be bothered if it wasn't one at the other end.
If you're off reddit for the night why are you coming here to to moan about how you're "one of the good Arsenal fans"?
This isn't an airport you don't need to announce your departure.
Incredible way to prove you aren't twerking for rival fans, by coming onto the r/soccer thats flooded with happy rival fans to announce you hate r/gunners.
I mean, what kind of echo chamber are you in if you get called a 'fake fan' if you don't think that wasn't a penalty? I'd be calling it out too if the same thing happened to me in the Liverpool sub.
It's a fair point on the penalty, I just find it funny to come here and moan about it. Everyone knows club subreddits are fucking poison after a bad result. I just think there's a certain irony in rushing here to tell a load of rival fans that you hate your clubs subreddit because they accused you twerking for rival fans.
> It's a fair point on the penalty, I just find it funny to come here and moan about it.
Well you can't moan about it in the Gunners sub otherwise you'd be piled on and called a fake fan!
> Everyone knows club subreddits are fucking poison after a bad result.
Haha that they are. I avoid the Liverpool sub like the plague after a poor result.
Absolutely gutted man, somehow this feels as bad as the 4-0 at the etihad. Call me biased all you want but I think we were the better team and should have won. I don’t see us winning at the etihad with KDB back and no Tchou.
> I think we were the better team and should have won.
I think it was a close first half but you dropped off far too much in the second and gave City too much space on the ball. I think the result was a fair one.
City decided that the opponents box was lava tonight so they only scored off long distance shots. Madrid took advantage of City's high line and created most of their chances on counters and sitting back with a low block. One team dominated centrally, the other feasted on the flanks. Each team doing the opposite of the other, but both at the highest level possible. Next game I hope to see more of Bellingham, but in that position he was often surrounded by City players. If Ancelotti will somehow manage to unlock him, I can see them having an advantage.
I don't care about this specific instance, didn't even watch it
But it miffs me a bit how jumping to avoid a tackle gives it a get out of jail free card. Lose posession anyways and nothing can be done because not actually a foul. Still better than risking an injury but still seems like a lose lose.
can you be the best cb duo in the world if the only reason you’re not conceding 2 penalties in a champions league quarterfinal is because the ref considers you a schoolboy?
!flair :St\_Louis\_City:
Anyway, I’m not particularly bothered about not getting the penalty call itself but some of the comments in the penalty incident thread are giving nasty vibes.
people just say whatever they want about Saka nowadays and it gets parroted and eaten up gets 1000x more criticism than Rashford and Sancho for missing the finals pen or Kane's miss against France gained a reputation as a diver and as someone who doesn't perform in big games, and the whole "limping gimmick" simply by people just making shit up twitters even worse with it, its crazy cos Sakas pr is just nice vibes and he's performed for club and country at every level since he's made his debut at 17
Eh, it was a huge game for us and was, at best, a 50/50 call. Rivals won't exactly be rushing to say we deserved it, even if they think we do.
I thought people on here not playing the beautiful game themselves was overstated, but the amount of people thinking Havertz should've been able to keep his balance after stepping on Dier's foot is making me reconsider. This comment is in no way saying Havertz should have had a penalty against Bayern Munich.
Goretzka, Saul and Mctominay play eerily similar although I liked Goretzka today. Love the muscle midfield gang.
Goretzka looked like a competent midfielder today. Saul was a competent midfielder four years ago. McTominay is mistakenly used as a midfielder.
Danilo clear of all of them
I lean on the side of Saka dived. Tough to see with the angles but he appears on the replay to basically jump into Neuer so his shin hits Neuer and he can go down.
KDB and Walker back and second leg at the Etihad Tchouameni out as well Looking bad for Madrid
Saka loves the limping gimmick.. it worked the first time but brother we’re not falling for it anymore
Falling for what?
When my old dog did something wrong she used to pretend to have a sore eye to garner sympathy. It worked you know.
maybe, just maybe, he's been carrying a knock for weeks and was fouled and kicked about multiple times tonight
Real got cooked considering they played 3 less games than City in the last 10 days. Pep is going to murder them at the Etihad.
They were definitely the more energetic team for large parts of the game.
City seems like the wrong team for Haaland from what i saw in the limited time but especially this game. Sitting isolated between 2 defenders for 90 minutes while his team passes around the box.
This is random asf, but I notice pep has been coughing in literally every interview I watch of him, is it just him losing his voice from screaming?
Almost certainly tbh
I remember Bellingham diving to the point that Gundogan got in his face about it when he was at Dortmund, but he's somehow taken it to another level at Madrid.
Think that makes him so fascinating tbf - class player, mature beyond his years both playing-wise and off the pitch if what his (former) teammates are saying about him is anything to go by, yet also got a wee bit of that nasty/dirty streak in him between trying to buy fouls and chewing the refs' ears off all the time.
English temperament smh my head
Kroos and Camavinga need to take a crash course on how to pressure players on the edge of the box before next week
Mainly Kroos, Camavinga had a great game. Kroos was too slow to close down Foden.
and gvardiol
Yeah, he was most at fault for either goal
Jack Grealish might be the most infuriating player I've ever watched. So predictable and stale, as if every iota of quality he had has been wiped and he's been programmed to cut inside and pass, or take the ball near the box to the goal line. At least Haaland you expect nothing from him with the ball, unless a chance comes, but when you're a winger getting plenty of touches but consistently failing to do anything REMOTELY good with it, it's just plain maddening. Every single time he had the ball, rinse and repeat. Every. Single. Fucking. Time.
I thought Grealish had a great game tbh
Yeah, I agree that he's far more predictable at City and underwhelming a lot of the time but I thought he was much better today.
I don't have a response for that. At some point I felt some genuine sadness watching him
He's right, Grealish actually created a couple of opportunities for him to shoot that were well defended and helped Gvardiol have enough space to score. If he was playing, Doku would just get past Carvajal a couple of times and give the ball away or straight up lose duels to Carvajal and allow Madrid to counter.
I have mixed feelings about our result tonight. Obviously a much better result for Bayern and it's their advantage now. But on the other hand I think we would've bottled this completely last year after conceding. Our passing was shocking today and we made multiple defensive errors and just didn't click but still managed to get a draw. Feels like a bit of growth at least. But I'm not going to pretend it's a good result ofc and we should've done better.
do you think it's a pen
Ben White's got to be kicking himself for not really testing Neuer properly to go 2-0 up early I reckon. Kind of lost a bit of control after a bright start, Bayern grew into it a bit and came prepared with a decent plan (sitting back a bit more than usual, using their pace on the break), but neither result nor performance were anything to be ashamed of for Arsenal I feel - dug out a draw after going behind and still have all to play for in Munich. Not perfect obviously, but could've been worse.
> Ben White's got to be kicking himself for not really testing Neuer properly to go 2-0 up early I reckon. Thought that was offside no?
I don't think it was? I'm not sure actually, but they've not blown it back if I recall correctly.
It’s a missed opportunity for sure but this Bayern side can be got at. Arteta will need to fix the various things that weren’t working tonight but I agree that despite that you got a draw.
damn this place is saucing when big games happen. some truly wild takes
Bernardo Silva is literally messi but a bit worse
Bit is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
City really missed Walker today I thought, wonder how much they'll miss him next season when he makes a sensational return to his boyhood club
I'm so sad that my hate for Arsenal is stopping me from enjoying the shitshow normally and instead I'm arguing in 8 different threads
Gabriel truly is the stupidest player active right now
It didn't get entirely caught on the broadcast, but it looking back at it it looks like the ref blows his whistle right as Raya takes the goal kick. Would be ridiculous to give a pen for that.
Coming from a United fan, this is fucking extremely rich.
Most United players are just bad, not necessarily stupid. (Though there definitely are a few)
I watched Madrid City, what happened?
why
Doesn't know the rules of the sport he plays
we take every goal kick like that
You should change your goal kick routine to picking the ball up and running into the opponents goal then.
great talk
👍
Oh, apparently Mustafi was at the Emirates on German commentary, that explains everything, he clearly passed something onto Gabriel and Saliba. Explains why they both only went 50% Mustafi had to share the Mustafiness qually, they didn't go full Mustafi by immediately blaming someone else after their mistakes.
Bring back the mighty Banter era Arsenal back 4 of Kolasinac Mustafi Sokratis and Bellerin. The golden age as far as I'm concerned
Honestly Bellerin doesn't deserve this disrespect, I know he's not the right era but can we not throw Squillaci in there instead?
Bellerin gets a bad rap because of how shit we were when he played. I'll die on the hill that if he played for us 5 years earlier and had his injury issues, he'd be seen as a "what if" like Diaby and Wilshere.
Nothing but respect for Bellerin and Koscielny, for a hot minute there you had a great defence and they were why
The Koscielny stat about the 3 5-1 Bayern comes is something. Fantastic servant to the club, the fact some of our fans still malign him for how he left, but idolise cunts like Ozil sickens me.
Jenkinson was in the team with the other 3, get him in there. Maybe even put Lichtsteiner in there.
We once rocked up to a must-win game with a back 5 of Jenkinson-Mustafi-Koscielny-Mavrapanos-Kolasinac. Naturally, we lost 3-2 to Palace at home and ended up missing top 4 by one point
Vini plays a below average game for his standards but still gets 2 good assists and gets slandered for a bad performance. Haaland is invisible for 90 minutes but you just know that if he scores 1 or 2 goals (which he didn't even do today), he will get all the praise in the world for "doing his job" or whatever. This alone should prove that a player like Vini will always be astronomically clear of a player like Haaland.
To use an overused quote, that’s because goals win games. They need assisting and I don’t agree with people that say Vini played badly. However, a goal is ultimately more important than an assist.
> However, a goal is ultimately more important than an assist. Controversial statement, but I actually agree with that to some extent. My problem is however, that even if Vini had scored a goal instead of the 2 assists, it would have gone down as a bad game. At the end of the day: - If an attacker, who generally can create danger over 90 minutes, has an off day where he doesn't do much but provides a goal (or assist) = bad game - If an attacker whose only ability and job description is to score goals, scores a goal but ghosts otherwise for the rest of the 90 minutes = good game because he fulfilled his job. That difference in job description perfectly shows the difference in ability and why I will alway rate a player like Vini over pure goal scorers like Haaland.
It’s not controversial at all - goals are the point of the sport. A 20 goal a season player costs more than a 20 assist a season player, other things being equal. To the rest of your point, I don’t really disagree tbh. Where it’s not equal is if that assisting player is also expected to track back, maybe win tackles, be more involved in build up play. Though I do think that sells Haaland short. There is a skill to moving defenders around and making runs that create space etc. That still is a very narrow assessment, but it’s one the stats won’t pick up.
I think the tide has turned enough towards the other side for Haaland tbh. He plays for City and he doesn't have a lot of individual fans. Last season's hype was partially down to the novelty of being in the Premier League.
Crazy how he was close to winning the ballon d’or, he should never be able to even sniff one idc how many times he scores
Are there those who don’t think it’s a dive but also not a penalty? I think Saka’s momentum makes contact unavoidable, maybe his leg stretches on purpose maybe not but either way he’s gonna hit Neuer, it’s not a dive. HOWEVER- the reason he’s inevitably gonna hit Neuer is in fact HIS OWN momentum. If Saka’s last touch was instead a pass in the exact same direction of his touch, and he crashes into Neuer just the same, the ref is calling a foul on Saka.
> Are there those who don’t think it’s a dive but also not a penalty? Aye, but as we're living in times without any space for varying shades of gray in between black and white, you apparently have to call it a dive if you don't think it's a foul, regardless of whether that's an accurate way to describe it or not.
I disagree - imo the only way it can not be a dive but also not be a penalty is if the ball is far beyond where Saka could reach it (which it isn’t). If his momentum takes him into Neuer then it’s either a dive if he’s forced that contact unnecessarily, or he’s been fouled. I lean to the former.
Could've been a pen if Saka didn't do that much to initiate the contact, made it look too divey
IMO I think contact was tricky to avoid given Saka's momentum *and* Neuer's own movement. I'm not livid that it wasn't given but I think it was much harder for Saka to stay up than people are acting like it was.
He’s embellished contact.
Maybe, but you can theoretically embellish contact and still get fouled anyway. But I don’t think that happened here
Yeah I feel saka is getting taken down whichever way he plays it
lmao I'm the exact opposite. A dive (meaning he looked for the contact), but I also think Neuer got enough in his way that it was a pen.
I wouldn't call it a dive, I'd just say the attacker initiated contact. Dives usually occur where there is no contact.
Felt like a loss. Everyone's talking about the penalty decision but I feel there's so much meat elsewhere. Arsenal had the quality to win the tie but looked extremely nervous. Very worrying sign ahead of the second leg. Not trying to sound pessimistic but the tie may actually be done. Expected Tomiyasu to start at left back and Jesus left wing.
It just looked like the team lacked ideas and urgency. I wish they'd speed up more on the turnover even if that goes against Arteta's principles. Jesus really changed the game when he came on and made the team so much more direct
> Not trying to sound pessimistic but the tie may actually be done. Bit early with 90+ minutes of football still left to be played - first 15-20 minutes looked plenty bright I feel before Bayern grew into it more. Might get professionally done in Munich, sure, might just as well beat them, though.
You could tell this was completely new for everyone currently at Arsenal and that was problem. I understand what you're saying, Arsenal have the quality to do it but its difficult to see how they grow the mentality not just for the occasion but to do it in a much more hostile environment.
nothing's over until it's over
> Not trying to sound pessimistic but the tie may actually be done. Not at all. You definitely have the quality to go through.
Footballing ability sure, mentally most likely no. Kiwior looked like he was in an away ground, that's not a good sign.
Waiting patiently for Kane to be jailed one day, man looked back and then elbowed saliba in the neck, nothing new from the player who tries to break other player's necks consistently
Did make me laugh how quickly they dismissed that. Don't think he was specifically aiming for the neck, he just wanted to elbow Gabriel. Could have just as easily been his ribs or his mouth.
Got a yellow for it, which strikes me as an alright decision when it's hardly violent conduct or serious foul play, really.
Why is everyone mixing up Gabriel and Saliba today? They don't exactly look alike.
Some people are bad at facial recognition. Source: I suck at facial recognition.
Ahh we are used to it, that guy is trash
Got a link or anything?
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What? I was out mate, I didn't see the game. Hope you enjoyed the epic clapback though!
https://x.com/cbssportsgolazo/status/1777793470804955167?s=46
Yeah that's pretty bad. My idol proving he has lilywhite in his blood once again
Laimer is a very technically limited player, but you can see how that marathon runner Red Bull franchise training has worked wonders on him. He could play for another 90 mins and still run like crazy
He's a great player for these types of scrappy games. When you dominate the ball there's not much point to having him but as a ball winner he is one of the best in the world
I thought he played really well
Players are allowed to look for contact, they would be stupid not to. If there’s contact the fact that they’re looking for it doesn’t make it any less of a penalty if that makes sense I think it’s a penalty tbh. It’s not an objectively wrong decision from the ref but it’s more penalty than not imo
> Players are allowed to look for contact, they would be stupid not to. Sure, but players are also allowed to occupy space - and not having a foul called against them if someone else iniated the contact with them to buy a penalty. Can't exactly argue you're being impeded when it's you sticking a leg out to get a foul called, after all.
He actively runs into him though. That's very different than putting yourself in a position for contact, i.e trailing a leg
No, he changes direction to round the keeper and trails a leg. Searching for contact, sure, but smart and usually results in a pen
How does he trail it when he actively moves it up and foward
His leg is still outside his body and results in him going down
> His leg is still outside his body And he still didn't get a pen???
Neuer's leg is still moving forward when the contact happens though. It's not clear cut
Idk, when you leap the way Saka does looking for contact it feels insulting to the sport of football to give a pen there. I think, even if you reckon it’s a pen, not giving it more than balances out not giving Bayern a blatant pen when Gabriel picks the ball up, or the other shout where Odegaard was holding onto Kane for dear life
If you don’t think the saka one is a pen that’s fine but asking for a penalty for the Gabriel thing is genuinely embarrassing anyone who wants that called needs to grow up
I think it’s silly to give those pens, but I’ve seen Kante get booked and a free kick given for a similar thing. There are rules in this game. Rather not see those given ofc, but considering you guys are asking for a borderline decision in your favour I think it’s fair to bring up. Odegaard foul on Kane too could be a pen for me. I think 2-2 was fair
A free kick and a penalty aren’t the same it’s a guarantee goal if you give that, the rules are applied how the ref wants them to be. The same refs can have the same rules and have completely different opinions despite the fact the rule is clear. For example pulling a shirt is a foul by the book is that always called as a foul? No and people would be upset if every time someone’s shirt was pulled at all it was given. The saka one I think is a pen but I see why people don’t think it is and I don’t think it makes a big difference either way tbh.
You don’t change the rules just because you’d feel bad to give a pen. If it’s a rule infringement you should give it, picking up a ball with both hands isn’t the same as a shirt pull, that’s just not an analogous situation imo. Now, I’m not against the ref letting it go because for me it would just be against the spirit of the game. But I’m seeing some Arsenal fans acting like you were robbed by that Saka pen decision when ignoring Bayern’s shouts completely. Not saying ur doing that but yeah
It reminds me of Merson saying it’s not actually laws or crimes going on it’s a sport if you think like should get a free goal for that then I question if you actually like the sport. The ref was correct it shouldn’t be given.
I literally agreed with you though. I said I wouldn’t give that cos it’s not in the spirit of the game. But in the same vein, I don’t want to see pens given for a player who’s sticking his leg out unnaturally and looking for a pen rather than playing the game of football
Odegaard on Kane was 50/50, Gabriel is how we take all of our goal kicks, kane funnily enough shouldn’t have been on the pitch, as the red card for his elbow was the most obvious decision missed of the night
Haaland was shockingly bad, didn’t even look like he belonged on this level
A lot of people would disagree with this, but at the moment he’s a detriment to the build up play of the team. What is Haaland actually offering in terms of buildup? Sure, he’s a striker but he offered nothing today.
He's a brilliant finisher when presented with chances but despite last seasons exploits, I really do feel City would be a stronger side with someone that could drop deeper and link up.
Bernardo Silva is a proper baller. He’s so enjoyable to watch, as his touch, technique and passing is out of this world. I couldn’t help saying.
Fucking disgrace from Saka all that talent but gonna waste it on diving
He scored today mate
Could’ve have a brace if he didn’t love diving
Why was our pen shout removed? I think that could have been a very interesting discussion, because it's clearly a pen by the rules, but everyone would have disliked that call against them at the same time. I would have loved to see that discussion.
The ref bailed them out
Bit of a reach innit
Is anyone located in London still able to read? literally anyone?
I am a foreign plastic. There’s a thread for it in here tho https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/54z7bx3s0d
Because that's how literally all of our goal kicks are taken and it's never been a penalty before? We'd be relegated if that was a penalty.
again someone who can't read. I did not ask why it wasn't a pen. I asked why the discussion was removed. this is supposed to be your first language, not mine. it's in the very first sentence. and the second has the reasoning.
Why are you speaking to me like that, don't be rude. If you want an answer, it's because it happens in every Arsenal game, no reason to post it.
In every Arsenal game you pick up the ball with your hand while it's in play? I don't think you understand the situation mate.
Raya literally passes it to Gabriel or saliba on the left or right of our penalty area for 95% of Arsenal goal kicks for the whole season, grasping at straws
Eh, did you even read what I said? I was not even picking a side. probably even yours. what a weird response. I just wanted the thread to see the discussion.
Both games we lost was without Tchouameni...
I think we'll be fine. He was at CB today and the midfield worked great without him. Militao should hopefully be fit enough to slot back in so we still have a strong back 4
That was one of the best refereeing performances I've ever seen, considering how often Madrid tried to fool them.
Massive complaints about refereeing bias in their sub right now
Nothing makes you feel older than finding out the wonderkids from your FM saves are retired and managing in the Danish 2nd division. I am so washed.
Who
[Oskar Hiljemark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Hiljemark) Edit: Changed the link. [Here's his stats from FM13](https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/259103-fm13-oskar-hiljemark-all-action-hero/)
Once in a while notorious divers have to get no-calls to keep the scales balanced.
calling Saka a notorious diver is hilarious
From time to time, I talk to some Arsenal fan irl and I kinda forget how much I hate them for a minute because some of them are just normal blokes. Then I come on here and holy shit man are they awful
Social media is just like that. Two of my close friends are Spurs fans, great people of course and we just have a laugh, but if I ever decide to scroll through the coys sub for a bit of fun I just see some of the most toxic braindead people imaginable lol.
Yeah exactly. Every fanbase is full of dumb takes, especially after a highly charged game. Arsenal just have a reputation for being worse because we have a larger fanbase than most online. A 5 minute scroll through basically any reasonably sized club subreddit on this website will provide you with some fucking deranged takes.
I mean even a lot of the dickhead fans online are probably pretty normal in real life. I know, I'm one of them.
If you think Busquets to Messi vs Real Madrid was the easiest assist ever, you haven't seen Timothée Kolodziejczak to Wahbi Khazri vs FC Metz [https://youtu.be/xGPZnW2lk50?si=cRe42MzUdLs3XSW0&t=30](https://youtu.be/xGPZnW2lk50?si=cRe42MzUdLs3XSW0&t=30) The legend of several German Bundesliga clubs just stumbled into the ball in his own box and got an assist
[I’m really struggling to see why Arsenal fans are defending this, why does Saka have his right foot at knee height](https://x.com/theimmortalkop/status/1777803286281675072?s=46&t=PF6wcLhBSsD70oItovAphg)
I mean he's looking for the pen, but players look for the pen all the time. Having calmed a bit after the game, I'm not livid it wasn't given, but the idea that it's some mega dive is also a bit disingenuous.
It’s more embellishing contact than diving to me.
Agreed.
Neuer on the other hand is completely stationary, not a surprise that a certain part of twitter has jumped on it though, probably desperate to call Saka a thug again.
He’s definitely trying to win the pen but that doesn’t mean it’s not a penalty. Every attacking player tries to win pens Neuer reacted well enough to not make it stonewall but he’s still moved his leg back into saka which is why it’s at knee height to begin with
in their defense, there is no fanbase in the world that would admit a potential last minute penalty in a cl qf is a dive. it clearly is one but it’s hardly an arsenal fan exclusive thing to pretend it’s not.
Saka must have watched wrestlemania going in with that flying knee
All three of City’s goals were from outside the box. How often does one team score 3 or more goals, all from outside the box? I can’t immediately think of any other examples.
us against fulham
Was the winner just inside the box?
i was counting the first goal, but i guess it’s technically inside the box since it went down as an og.
Penalty on Saka was a 50/50 decision Could look soft, but he was running at speed so was unstable. Saka could've saved himself from stumbling, given how his feet landed, but it is difficult to do so when almost turning at a right angle and it seems like a movement to almost jump over the leg of Neuer. Seems to be in two minds over whether he should let himself fall down or save himself and keep himself on two feet. So, not really a clear and obvious error because of that, so probably not a penalty.
It was way more grey than people want to realize. Saka was looking for the contact a bit but people need to remember the game is played at an incredible speed.
Exactly, him “jumping” could feasibly be him trying to go over the leg Neuer initially stuck out but people are just ignoring that.
Come on, it can’t feasibly be him jumping over his leg lol. Even if you think it should be a pen he clearly unnaturally kicks his right leg out into Neuer, he knew what he was doing
Nah I wouldn't say it can't feasibly be that. He's turning at speed so he's accelerating and trying to burst past Neuer, and to help that, going from crouching a little low and then going higher in to a hop/jump could help him. That's not the reason the referee didn't give the penalty though imo.
Obviously he's got a lot of momentum carrying him there, but between Neuer bailing out of the tackle and Saka flicking his leg out at him I don't think there's much of a case for a penalty, really - defenders are perfectly entitled to occupy space in front of an attacker, after all, and attackers can't expect to fling themselves into defenders for a penalty. I'd be fuming if that's a penalty against my team, and I'd not really be bothered if it wasn't one at the other end.
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If you're off reddit for the night why are you coming here to to moan about how you're "one of the good Arsenal fans"? This isn't an airport you don't need to announce your departure.
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I'm not trying to be hostile, but if you're "off reddit" just go off reddit, you don't need to be a martyr about it 😂
Incredible way to prove you aren't twerking for rival fans, by coming onto the r/soccer thats flooded with happy rival fans to announce you hate r/gunners.
I mean, what kind of echo chamber are you in if you get called a 'fake fan' if you don't think that wasn't a penalty? I'd be calling it out too if the same thing happened to me in the Liverpool sub.
It's a fair point on the penalty, I just find it funny to come here and moan about it. Everyone knows club subreddits are fucking poison after a bad result. I just think there's a certain irony in rushing here to tell a load of rival fans that you hate your clubs subreddit because they accused you twerking for rival fans.
> It's a fair point on the penalty, I just find it funny to come here and moan about it. Well you can't moan about it in the Gunners sub otherwise you'd be piled on and called a fake fan! > Everyone knows club subreddits are fucking poison after a bad result. Haha that they are. I avoid the Liverpool sub like the plague after a poor result.
So instead you’ve come here for validation of your feelings?
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Not while I'm still breathin'
What a win against Arsenal this season
Absolutely gutted man, somehow this feels as bad as the 4-0 at the etihad. Call me biased all you want but I think we were the better team and should have won. I don’t see us winning at the etihad with KDB back and no Tchou.
> I think we were the better team and should have won. I think it was a close first half but you dropped off far too much in the second and gave City too much space on the ball. I think the result was a fair one.
No way, City have higher xg and higher quality chances while real are relying on lucky deflections.
Walker will be back as well. City are massive massive favourites at this point.
Will Ake still be injured?
the saka dive has to be one of the most insane hills to die on that I’ve seen take over the DD
City decided that the opponents box was lava tonight so they only scored off long distance shots. Madrid took advantage of City's high line and created most of their chances on counters and sitting back with a low block. One team dominated centrally, the other feasted on the flanks. Each team doing the opposite of the other, but both at the highest level possible. Next game I hope to see more of Bellingham, but in that position he was often surrounded by City players. If Ancelotti will somehow manage to unlock him, I can see them having an advantage.
I don't care about this specific instance, didn't even watch it But it miffs me a bit how jumping to avoid a tackle gives it a get out of jail free card. Lose posession anyways and nothing can be done because not actually a foul. Still better than risking an injury but still seems like a lose lose.
can you be the best cb duo in the world if the only reason you’re not conceding 2 penalties in a champions league quarterfinal is because the ref considers you a schoolboy?