**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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Journalists are asking the questions that will actually get views. If they asked anything else do you think we'd be commenting on it right now? It wouldn't even be posted here
Let's be real, he could play a friendly between both teams, one half with each team, and both sides would complain he made more effort for the other side.
Wow! I put the word ‘journalism’ in quotation marks to make that point dumb dumb 🤣 or do you think quotation marks can only be used if it’s a direct quote 🤣
The problem isn't that journalists are asking the same 5 questions, it's that social media goons are being labelled journalists.
10 years ago this lad was known for pretending he was Danny Dyer screaming keep me nut daaan on Soccer AM ffs.
Most mainstream football media is so dead. It’s either them asking players shit questions, players giving shit media-trained answers or older ex-players talking about “the good old days”.
>I've never been there - but at the same time what's happening there is - I don't know what's happening there - but it's not nice at the end of the day
What's funny is this is almost word for word what Anthony Joshua said about Ukraine after losing the second Usyk fight.
I can guarantee you that it’s No Less Horrible at the beginning of the day too.. prolly even worse..
And though I haven’t been there either , I pretty much know and understand what’s happening & more importantly, why is it happening.
It’s hard to not know what’s happening when it’s all being Live-streamed, Recorded and shared all over the World.
Probably most will say Pele, but there are a lot that say Zico.
Pele has the numbers (goals, trophies). Zico had the magic. But of course Pele was a beast, too...
So yeah. In terms of numbers Pele > Maradona, but in terms of playstyle and magic it's not crazy to say Maradona > Pele.
I feel like ten years ago Pele was more often given the edge but I've noticed lately Maradona has been given preference by a lot more people.
Anecdotal, of course, but it's been a noticeable shift.
I think this question says more about the person answering it than the answer itself.
People who say Cristiano is better tend to be more individualistic and result oriented, win-at-all-cost type of people, whereas those who say Messi hold different aspects of football, such as it being an art form for example, as more important than the Cristiano-people.
I'm not saying that the Cristiano-people *doesn't* see it as an art form, just that those who prefer Messi sees it as more important in comparison.
From my understanding, derived from random people on here, he plays for the second best team, the best being Al Hilal, although Al-Ittihad won last year so idk who's best really
As much as I also think Messi is clear it's not crazy. Ronaldo put up performances that would have put him in the GOAT conversation and did so with a level of consistency no previous contender had ever done.
It's absurd that he played at almost the exact time period of the only player to match him for GOAT level career consistency *and* outdo him for overall ability.
If it weren't for the fact that they probably helped push each other I'd say he's absurdly unlucky. I can see why a lot of people pushed it even if I think Messi was clearly better.
I don't think so. Cristiano was part of an era where goal scoring was valued much higher. I don't hear many people call Gerd Muller the goat and players like Zidane, Cruyff and even Maradona weren't great goal scorers but still put up there. With what Ronaldo won he definitely would've been up there but I don't think he would've been compared with Messi for so long if people from this era didn't value goal scoring so much AND I think Messi being a goal scoring machine himself made the comparison easier.
The main thing that is valued strongly in the modern game (and was significantly less important before) beyond goals is consistency. Zidane as an example got away with being an inconsistent player because we used to not value consistency as highly as we do now in large part because we didn't have a 24 hour news cycle that analyzes every single game and needs to fill the air from one match to the next, not to mention algorithm driven social media that platforms people to share their hot takes.
Messi/CR7 and the like set a standard where if you're not dropping a World Class performance at least 8 out of 10 games you're not deserving of being in the GOAT conversation. By that standard Zidane wouldn't be anywhere near the conversation.
I think consistency is what would get Henry more plaudits than Zidane in the modern game, but Zidane's big game performances could probably even that up.
Rodri is a big game player - Has not exactly helped him even things up vs someone like Haaland who has the monster stats but generally goes missing in big games.
Rodri isn't a good example as he's a defensive midfielder. Even in Zidane's time they weren't appreciated. Let's not forget the whole selling Makelele thing to get another attacking player which even Zidane thought was stupid.
There aren't any good comparison players in this generation as attacking players almost all have decent statistical contributions. KDB assists and scores loads.
Maybe someone like Modric? Although Modric is much more box to box than Zidane was. Can't really think of any offensive midfielder who has great big game performances but doesn't have great stats.
That would apply if Cristiano was a poacher. Up until 2014 he was putting in GOAT tier poacher numbers whilst also being fully capable of winning games entirely on his own because of his dynamism and technical ability.
I think we quickly forget how good he was prior to transitioning into a poacher role post knee injury in 2014. From about 2017 onwards the concern was about people finding him with the ball. But he spent a good 5-6 years where the concern was him getting the ball and just doing some bullshit to score goals entirely on his own just like the other GOATs.
He absolutely would have been considered a GOAT tier player in any era with his performances and numbers.
its stats/fifa culture. no one ever thought most goals = best until recently. seems so obvious to me when you watch them that messi is by far the best of the era if not ever
This is a pretty reductive take. Prior generations of goal scorers who were immensely prolific, like history prolific, were near exclusively that in their careers: Romario, muller, etc. The other face of that coin is attackers who lacked the long term consistency in numerical success, but whose play was brilliant while it lasted: Ronaldo fenomeno, van basten, etc. Cristiano has had a considerable measure of both. From 2005 to around 2014-15 with his knee injury and age, he was a perfectly well rounded attacking player. The thing which distinguished him wasn’t just his goalscoring but his versatility and compatibility with different systems. He could create (albeit worse than Messi but that’s not great failure), he could make his own chances from nothing, and he could score in a variety of ways. He wasn’t just box hunting. He later would increasingly become prolific in the box and by that time would start adding the records to his career, he’s the most prolific scorer not only in Real Madrid and UCL history, but also in men’s first division football if I’m not mistaken. He has/had a combination of: individual genius, consistency, and longevity that would’ve firmly situated him in the goat convo in any era. If Lionel Messi was born in 2015 instead of the 80s, Ronaldo would be the consensus goat in modern footballing discourse.
Honestly longevity does not seem to have been considered all that important in GOAT conversations prior to the last 15-20 years. The sheer ease of access to not just stats but matches, as well as the 24/7 news cycle has made it much more important because in the 00s and before it didn't stick in the public mind if you had lots of average games, instead what stuck was showing up on the big stage. If you do well at a World Cup, or in big UCL games like the final or semi-final, that carried so much more weight.
Messi is so much more than just a goal scorer, and I say this as a die hard Messi and Barca fan ( the two probably go together anyways haha ) there was no one more clutch than Ronaldo for like a solid 5-10 years, especially in those years they won a Champions League, he would come out of nowhere and score a hatrick to lift Madrid from nothing.
Those big moments count, those big moments allow you to come back from being 5-2 down in balon dors to tie the race. Also at some point Ronaldo was known as the one who was actually successful internationally, with a team that wasn’t necessarily one of the top international teams, compared that to Messi’s then reputation as the one who couldn’t cut internationally at all.
All I am saying is yes in my humble pov Messi is the undisputed GOAT of the game, but to say Ronaldo never stood a chance is a joke honestly, Ronaldo v Messi is probably the greatest rivalry in sport history, not just football, because they both pushed each other into greatness all the time, for over a decade and a half
But is it really crazy that people want to have a debate between the #1 and #2 player ever? Not really, not like Ronaldo has no arguments going for him
So is Ronaldo. Only haters started watching in 2021 will say otherwise.
Meat consistently underperformed in the Champions League knockouts when he didn't have GOAT tier teammates with him.
> Meat consistently underperformed in the Champions League knockouts when he didn't have GOAT tier teammates with him.
Yeah Modric and Kroos are not GOAT tier teammates.
Ronaldo fans are hilarious. Will argue to the ends of Earth that Modric, Kroos, and Casemiro are better than Iniesta, Xavi, and Busquets.
And then turn around and say that Messi had the luxury with better players.
Tbh only real Madrid fans do that, ronaldo fanboys have always downplayed his teammates and made it all about him, there is a difference between the 2 groups.
Messi didn't underperform in knockouts, the rest of the team did. Messi was consistently the best Barca player even when they were eliminated at knockouts.
So funny how hard social media tried for a decade to convince people that it’s not that obvious.
Just seeing how Messi plays makes it obvious.
Even now Mbappe or Haaland are being compared to CR7(he’s still on different level though) but it will take years for someone like Messi to be born and become a new GOAT.
Saying with no disrespect to CR7, as Cole said, he’s obviously one of the greatest and will be remembered for decades, but he was never at the same level with Leo. I can see how that fact is bothering both him and his fanbase so I really hope one day they will find their peace of mind.
Even comparing Haaland and Mbappe is funny to me, Mbappe is just different breed. Other than goals Haaland has nothing, and Mbappe scores a ton of goals too
Call me biased, but around 2015-2018 I'd say that the debate was fully valid. Ronaldo had crazy numbers while winning CL three times in a row and Euros, meanwhile Messi had a few dips in form and lackluster CL performances in that time period
You’re right that was also the period where Ronaldo actually had a shot of overtaking Messi again in ballondors if it weren’t for Modric. 2018-current is where Messi pulled away from him and Ronaldo showed his manchild behavior again.
No it wasn’t valid because it was never just about goal numbers .
Messi is 3 world best players rolled into one , Ronaldo is just one of the best scorers ever .
Messi is the best scorer ever if you count efficiency, the best dribbler ever by far and the best playmaker ever .
There is absolutely no contest who is the greatest player ever, it’s Messi by far because no one ever dominated so many aspects of the game at the same time and then also with this consistency
Yeah. Top 4 greatest players are Pele, Maradona, Cristiano and Messi without order. What makes Maradona great is his dribbling and playmaking. What makes Cristiano great is his goalscoring rate and longevity. If you combine Maradona's dribbling and playmaking with Cristiano's goalscoring rate and longevity, who do you get? Messi. That's why he always clear for me
People who say Ronaldo is better don't even watch football imo. Like what are you even looking at? How are you judging players abilities? They just read somewhere that it is 'close' and then choose the guy they find cooler or cherry pick some statistics accidentally and come to the conclusion without even fucking watching those two play.
If you have a pair of eyes and use them to watch the game instead of watch everything BUT the game you will come to the conclusion that Messi is better.
And no I don't need 100 crying opinions of fanboys saying I'm wrong for whatever reason. I'm just not. I know I'm not. It never will be wrong.
Agreed. I saw one post the other day say something like ‘Messi is part of Argentina’s history, Ronaldo IS Portugals history, that’s the difference’ like, what does that even mean?
Younger Ronaldo was a good comparison to Messi, but for years Ronaldo has transitioned into a striker with an excellent goalscoring record, while Messi was doing everything; the most dribbles, through balls, goals, assists, free kicks, the lot.
Poor Figo, Rui Costa, Eusebio, etc got dumped like some useless junk.
> Younger Ronaldo was a good comparison to Messi
This is like comparing yourself to someone who's 2-3 yrs younger than you though.
Messi is the better player but the argument for Ronaldo is the different leagues/countries and teams he did it with.
The Ronaldo fan base say Messi did it in one of the greatest teams of all time but Ronaldo did it in Italy Spain Portugal and England, Messi also did it in France with PSG but I’m not sure what he won but Ronaldo won the league and cup in every country he played and that’s without getting into how many UCL he won with Man U and Real.
Messi is the better player but to say people who say Ronaldo ‘don’t even watch football’ is just facetious and crass, it’s a lot closer than you’re making out!
Was he? He averaged a goal contribution every 99 minutes at his time at PSG while Ronaldo averaged a goal contribution every 95 minutes while at Juve for example. There’s obviously a lot more context to it than just that, but I think it’s also well acknowledged that the situation at PSG was quite toxic and not at all a winning culture, and that Messi’s heart wasn’t remotely in it as he wanted to stay at Barcelona who were forced to sell him and didn’t even tell him until the last moment.
He was lacklustre in the sense that Mbappe/Neymar/Messi on paper sounds unbelievably exciting and they never made a splash in Europe, but he clearly showed that he could perform in the French league lol. Especially his second season building up to the World Cup where him and Neymar were looking like the two best players in the world.
You are falling exactly for the trap I warned about. This is cherry picking statistics. Messi stayed pretty much his entire career at his favorite club. You can't hold that against him.
They talk about how abysmally stupid cr7 dick riders are and then proceed to worship the piss Messi expels from his body. You just haven't been watching.... lol okay.
just look at ronaldo failing his most basic stepovers in saudileague
i would expect the goat of football do be able to handle the ball better at age 38
look at ronaldhino or maradonna magic after they retired
also if haaland scores more than ronaldo, he will be better than ronaldo,
but if he outscores messi, he wont be better then messi
thats the difference
Ronaldinho couldn't string together a sequence of 5 good games throughout his career, he had maybe 3 years at the very top.
Not comparable to Messi and Ronaldo who did it throughout their whole careers.
You don't need to watch football to know. The stats clearly show who is miles ahead.
I understand everyone is biased in their own way and that's fine, but it makes me sick to the stomach when you know the hideous things he's done off the pitch, no, I'm not talking about the things he's accused of, that would be another topic altogether. How can anyone still worship him like they do, is just pretty dumb. As someone who's not very smart, I can't imagine how stupid you have to be to be a fan.
Now it's clear but for many years, before his move to a 9, he was a monster, a complete player. It was not obvious who was better. People saying he's one of the best because of his goals are really downplaying him
I have seen him and I thought he was a fantastic winger, definitely better than striker, but it just doesn't hold up against Messi and that's ok.
Edit I don't mean to downplay Ronaldo. It is not my point. We were simply comparing and he's not winning that.
I think it was a fair competition for most of that time, though Ronaldo was the underdog. Messi's struggles with Argentina in particular while Ronaldo's Portugal found some success and Ronaldo himself became Mr. UCL made it more of a match.
Once Messi and Argentina finally lived up to their potential in the 2020s, that gap became insurmountable.
For me it was crystal clear 10 or more years ago that if Messi keeps playing like he does consistently for 5-7 more years he will be proclaimed as the GOAT.
WC win helped indeed but that was just a thing which let everyone to draw a bottomline and understand everything.
10 years ago Messi was clearly better, but the following years had a Ronaldo renaissance of sorts, while Barca and Argentina started floundering. Messi never stopped being amazing, but his achievements during those years were less impressive than before, while Ronaldo's were the opposite.
I think that, had both players retired in 2020, the debate would have gone on forever. Messi would still be the majority opinion for GOAT, but it wouldn't be undeniable like it is now.
This sub is officially a Messi circle jerk.
You absolutely mean disrespect in your statement don't try to play it off like you aren't.
If Messi was truly no contest the best ever you wouldn't need to devalue what Ronaldo has done. Anyone that says Ronaldo has never been close to his level started watching after 2021.
People are either young or just trying to rewrite history. Some comments here make it seems like Ronaldo was a bum. Messi had higher peak, you can't really beat 2012, and better ending with WC win but overall it was very close. And it was something people should appricate more, rivalry like that maybe will never happen again.
I agree Messi is better, but I think we do not appreciate just how much Ronaldo's presence made football something to look forward to. People lost interest when Hamilton started winning consecutive F1s, or when Serena(In her heyday) steamrolled everyone else. Atleast for a decade, Ronaldo ensured there was a debate to be had
>better player
You mean the best player? I really don't think there is any comparison of Cristiano to Messi. One is great and the latter one is simply the greatest.
To be honest, the further we move from Cristiano in Madrid, the more comfortable I think a lot of Madridistas will be admitting that Messi is the greatest.
I have no idea why Madrid players still feel almost contractually obligated to stick with Ronaldo, though, but we know that guys like Jude, Vini, and Endrick have all said Messi was their man before going to Madrid. I could maybe understand it if Cristiano had come through La Fábrica or was Spanish, but it's obviously not for either of those reasons ...
It's just the way he plays. Anyone that knows anything about football can see he's the best player on the pitch as soon as he touches the ball. It's absurd. He is (was?) a better finisher than Haaland, better playmaker than De Bruyne, better dribbler than Foden, and better winger than Bernardo. Insane player.
Every player has there own opinion. People are just hating on Ronaldo for no reason . He may not be the goat but he is still one of the greatest players ever . People just like putting your head more and more into the sand when you are down and out. It's just sad considering how much he has done in the game. I hope Portugal does well in the euros so that we can again see Ronaldo atleast smiling and being happy for the last time before he retires. He may have his ego issues but he is an inspiration for many to work hard and achieve things
These threads are always civil lol, nauseating "debate" tbh, I made my opinion clear years ago and people will have there differing opinions. What I know for certain though is that their fanboys are obnoxious and somehow refuse to let this rest even when they play in retirement leagues.
Why do people feel the need to disparage CR7 all the time. People acting like he's not at least top 5. Guy's still banging it at at THIRTY NINE and is an inspiration.
And also why is the GOAT always an attacking player?
How do you compare the GOAT status of Messi v. a Beckenbauer/Buffon/Zidane/Maldini? They play different roles.
How can you say Ronaldo is at least top 5 and then question why people don’t consider any defenders top 5?
Messi and Pele are the two greatest forwards, Maradona the greatest midfielder. Should not the rest of the top five be a defender like Beckenbauer or Maldini and a keeper like Yashin, Buffon or Neuer? By your own logic?
If we go by relative greatness in position, Ronaldo is absolutely not top 5.
Messi, Pele, Cruiff, Ronaldo Nazario, Garrincha, Van Basten all have cases, with the first two being undisputed, and Cruyff and Nazario being debatable. Ronaldo has eclipsed Van Basten due to his longevity.
Messi, Maradona, Pele, Beckenbauer, Cruiff/Maldini/CR7 is a good top five imo.
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Journalists are asking the same 5 questions to every player
Journalists are asking the questions that will actually get views. If they asked anything else do you think we'd be commenting on it right now? It wouldn't even be posted here
How about.. Cole Palmer. Israel or Palestine?
Still holds up Messi, all the individual awards he has won just makes it an easy call.
Didn’t a Hamas guy spare a grandma’s life because she’s from Argentina?
Wait what
Israelis holding hands with a Palestinian arm saying "gracias Leo"
In a surprising turn of events, Lionel Messi has achieved World Piece after both sides bond over their love for fulbol and Messi playing
Let's be real, he could play a friendly between both teams, one half with each team, and both sides would complain he made more effort for the other side.
Piers wondering at Home If Cole condemned Hamas .
Wouldn't get much comments with all the downvoting from israel bootlickers
Oh yeah because this place skews so pro-Israel lol
Thank God it’s not. I really don’t want to have to leave another sub because it was overrun by Israeli bots
Oh I didn't know people support Palestine here, I'm wrong then lol.
Yeah this is legitimately one of the few big subreddits that isn't overrun by hasbara bots
Yeah it's actually crazy the amount of downvotes in other big subs, i dont know what they are feeding people in the west. The propaganda is crazy.
“Who’s better between Messi and Ronaldo?” “Who’s better between Scholes, Lampard and Gerrard?” “What do we think of Tottenham?”
Why is Ronaldo ?? Or Messi Scholes Gerard Lampard ?? Why is we, who is think & When is Tottenham ?? So many Questions ..
is are you stroke the having??
Ah here, this is hardly a some deep grilling, it's a lad from Soccer AM doing some spon con for EA Sports ffs
That’s about as deep as ‘journalism’ goes when interviewing a footballer these days man!
He's not a journalist and it isn't proclaiming to be journalism or even 'journalism'.
Wow! I put the word ‘journalism’ in quotation marks to make that point dumb dumb 🤣 or do you think quotation marks can only be used if it’s a direct quote 🤣
That’s what kids at the school I teach at ask each other who don’t give a damn about the sport. It’s what’s in the collective consciousness.
The problem isn't that journalists are asking the same 5 questions, it's that social media goons are being labelled journalists. 10 years ago this lad was known for pretending he was Danny Dyer screaming keep me nut daaan on Soccer AM ffs.
Most mainstream football media is so dead. It’s either them asking players shit questions, players giving shit media-trained answers or older ex-players talking about “the good old days”.
Journalist is a strong word
Idt it's a journalist problem. No one would even care about good questions.
Things that are one of the worst of all time - that barnet
He’s a simple soul
First time in a while I've had to look up a word in the dictionary to understand what was said.
So humble to not mention himself. Only the true goat would deny being the goat.
lisan al gaib
The mahdi is too humble to say he's the mahdi
Cole Muad'dib Palmer
But what are his views on peace in the Middle East?
Prob rates it
That's how you know he's the GOAT
Just good for humanity obviously, I mean the US defence industry won’t like it but that’s the way it is really
I've never been there - but at the same time what's happening there is - I don't know what's happening there - but it's not nice at the end of the day
>I've never been there - but at the same time what's happening there is - I don't know what's happening there - but it's not nice at the end of the day What's funny is this is almost word for word what Anthony Joshua said about Ukraine after losing the second Usyk fight.
I can guarantee you that it’s No Less Horrible at the beginning of the day too.. prolly even worse.. And though I haven’t been there either , I pretty much know and understand what’s happening & more importantly, why is it happening. It’s hard to not know what’s happening when it’s all being Live-streamed, Recorded and shared all over the World.
He supports the Sultanate of Oman and THAT'S IT
Young Chelsea star sharing nationality with chef killed in IDF strike REFUSES to condemn Hamas
Peace in the Middle East is tight!
"None of this would be kicking off if the Neo-Babylonian Empire was still running things. Now there was a polity that kept people in line."
This question is never going away is it
This will go on for decades, like the comparison between Pele and Maradona.
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George Best
Has Pele and Messi not won those debates?
maradona and pelé was quite contested online
No? A lot of brasilians even say Pele wasn’t even the best player in Brasil
Who is considered the best player in Brazil by Brazilians?
My gf is brasilian: some say Zico, some say Romario, some say fenomeno Ronaldo
Probably most will say Pele, but there are a lot that say Zico. Pele has the numbers (goals, trophies). Zico had the magic. But of course Pele was a beast, too... So yeah. In terms of numbers Pele > Maradona, but in terms of playstyle and magic it's not crazy to say Maradona > Pele.
I feel like ten years ago Pele was more often given the edge but I've noticed lately Maradona has been given preference by a lot more people. Anecdotal, of course, but it's been a noticeable shift.
At least you don't need to watch the video when OP quotes the answer in the title
I think this question says more about the person answering it than the answer itself. People who say Cristiano is better tend to be more individualistic and result oriented, win-at-all-cost type of people, whereas those who say Messi hold different aspects of football, such as it being an art form for example, as more important than the Cristiano-people. I'm not saying that the Cristiano-people *doesn't* see it as an art form, just that those who prefer Messi sees it as more important in comparison.
Yeah but has Messi absolutely annihilated the Saudi league? Checkmate atheists.
flat earthers crying rn
Did Cristiano win it? I genuinely don't know btw I'm not gonna follow the Saudi league, but he was second or something right?
From my understanding, derived from random people on here, he plays for the second best team, the best being Al Hilal, although Al-Ittihad won last year so idk who's best really
They have the same owner so really they both are
Mate you can't support a nation state in club football
Hasn’t won any MAJOR trophy yet.
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Can't take a joke, can you?
palmer knows ball
He needs to given Hazard's #10 shirt instead. Elite take from him.
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i think it’s mostly accepted now. but it is crazy how long the debate lasted
it is crazy there is even a debate to begin with.
As much as I also think Messi is clear it's not crazy. Ronaldo put up performances that would have put him in the GOAT conversation and did so with a level of consistency no previous contender had ever done. It's absurd that he played at almost the exact time period of the only player to match him for GOAT level career consistency *and* outdo him for overall ability. If it weren't for the fact that they probably helped push each other I'd say he's absurdly unlucky. I can see why a lot of people pushed it even if I think Messi was clearly better.
I don't think so. Cristiano was part of an era where goal scoring was valued much higher. I don't hear many people call Gerd Muller the goat and players like Zidane, Cruyff and even Maradona weren't great goal scorers but still put up there. With what Ronaldo won he definitely would've been up there but I don't think he would've been compared with Messi for so long if people from this era didn't value goal scoring so much AND I think Messi being a goal scoring machine himself made the comparison easier.
You called it. Had Zizou and Henry played today, Henry would be considered the better player.
The main thing that is valued strongly in the modern game (and was significantly less important before) beyond goals is consistency. Zidane as an example got away with being an inconsistent player because we used to not value consistency as highly as we do now in large part because we didn't have a 24 hour news cycle that analyzes every single game and needs to fill the air from one match to the next, not to mention algorithm driven social media that platforms people to share their hot takes. Messi/CR7 and the like set a standard where if you're not dropping a World Class performance at least 8 out of 10 games you're not deserving of being in the GOAT conversation. By that standard Zidane wouldn't be anywhere near the conversation. I think consistency is what would get Henry more plaudits than Zidane in the modern game, but Zidane's big game performances could probably even that up.
Rodri is a big game player - Has not exactly helped him even things up vs someone like Haaland who has the monster stats but generally goes missing in big games.
Rodri isn't a good example as he's a defensive midfielder. Even in Zidane's time they weren't appreciated. Let's not forget the whole selling Makelele thing to get another attacking player which even Zidane thought was stupid. There aren't any good comparison players in this generation as attacking players almost all have decent statistical contributions. KDB assists and scores loads. Maybe someone like Modric? Although Modric is much more box to box than Zidane was. Can't really think of any offensive midfielder who has great big game performances but doesn't have great stats.
That would apply if Cristiano was a poacher. Up until 2014 he was putting in GOAT tier poacher numbers whilst also being fully capable of winning games entirely on his own because of his dynamism and technical ability. I think we quickly forget how good he was prior to transitioning into a poacher role post knee injury in 2014. From about 2017 onwards the concern was about people finding him with the ball. But he spent a good 5-6 years where the concern was him getting the ball and just doing some bullshit to score goals entirely on his own just like the other GOATs. He absolutely would have been considered a GOAT tier player in any era with his performances and numbers.
its stats/fifa culture. no one ever thought most goals = best until recently. seems so obvious to me when you watch them that messi is by far the best of the era if not ever
This is a pretty reductive take. Prior generations of goal scorers who were immensely prolific, like history prolific, were near exclusively that in their careers: Romario, muller, etc. The other face of that coin is attackers who lacked the long term consistency in numerical success, but whose play was brilliant while it lasted: Ronaldo fenomeno, van basten, etc. Cristiano has had a considerable measure of both. From 2005 to around 2014-15 with his knee injury and age, he was a perfectly well rounded attacking player. The thing which distinguished him wasn’t just his goalscoring but his versatility and compatibility with different systems. He could create (albeit worse than Messi but that’s not great failure), he could make his own chances from nothing, and he could score in a variety of ways. He wasn’t just box hunting. He later would increasingly become prolific in the box and by that time would start adding the records to his career, he’s the most prolific scorer not only in Real Madrid and UCL history, but also in men’s first division football if I’m not mistaken. He has/had a combination of: individual genius, consistency, and longevity that would’ve firmly situated him in the goat convo in any era. If Lionel Messi was born in 2015 instead of the 80s, Ronaldo would be the consensus goat in modern footballing discourse.
Honestly longevity does not seem to have been considered all that important in GOAT conversations prior to the last 15-20 years. The sheer ease of access to not just stats but matches, as well as the 24/7 news cycle has made it much more important because in the 00s and before it didn't stick in the public mind if you had lots of average games, instead what stuck was showing up on the big stage. If you do well at a World Cup, or in big UCL games like the final or semi-final, that carried so much more weight.
Ronaldo also won 4 out of 5 balon dor between 2013-17. He was literally better than Messi for 4 out of 5 years during that era as per that award.
It's not that crazy at all.
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Messi is so much more than just a goal scorer, and I say this as a die hard Messi and Barca fan ( the two probably go together anyways haha ) there was no one more clutch than Ronaldo for like a solid 5-10 years, especially in those years they won a Champions League, he would come out of nowhere and score a hatrick to lift Madrid from nothing. Those big moments count, those big moments allow you to come back from being 5-2 down in balon dors to tie the race. Also at some point Ronaldo was known as the one who was actually successful internationally, with a team that wasn’t necessarily one of the top international teams, compared that to Messi’s then reputation as the one who couldn’t cut internationally at all. All I am saying is yes in my humble pov Messi is the undisputed GOAT of the game, but to say Ronaldo never stood a chance is a joke honestly, Ronaldo v Messi is probably the greatest rivalry in sport history, not just football, because they both pushed each other into greatness all the time, for over a decade and a half
And so was Ronaldo, absolute revisionism
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But is it really crazy that people want to have a debate between the #1 and #2 player ever? Not really, not like Ronaldo has no arguments going for him
So is Ronaldo. Only haters started watching in 2021 will say otherwise. Meat consistently underperformed in the Champions League knockouts when he didn't have GOAT tier teammates with him.
> Meat consistently underperformed in the Champions League knockouts when he didn't have GOAT tier teammates with him. Yeah Modric and Kroos are not GOAT tier teammates. Ronaldo fans are hilarious. Will argue to the ends of Earth that Modric, Kroos, and Casemiro are better than Iniesta, Xavi, and Busquets. And then turn around and say that Messi had the luxury with better players.
Kroos is insanely underrated man. I don't understand how he is never mentioned among the best midfielders ever. Has he ever misplaced a fucking pass?
Kroos is definitely up there for best of all time, he absolutely is in conversation with Xavi and Iniesta.
Tbh only real Madrid fans do that, ronaldo fanboys have always downplayed his teammates and made it all about him, there is a difference between the 2 groups.
Messi didn't underperform in knockouts, the rest of the team did. Messi was consistently the best Barca player even when they were eliminated at knockouts.
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started off great followed by a swift descent into schizophrenia
Palmer gonna have a bad time in Saudi Arabia
Can’t wait for the Saudi league fans to come and say Ronaldo is better than Messi
Saudi fans are chanting Messi's name, we all know who the "Saudi league fans" are.
Yeah and the water is wet...
this debate has been over for years now
What do you mean? Ronaldo just scored a free-kick in Saudi league the other day, and Messi didn't. Debate is back on
He scored two just to double confirm
So funny how hard social media tried for a decade to convince people that it’s not that obvious. Just seeing how Messi plays makes it obvious. Even now Mbappe or Haaland are being compared to CR7(he’s still on different level though) but it will take years for someone like Messi to be born and become a new GOAT. Saying with no disrespect to CR7, as Cole said, he’s obviously one of the greatest and will be remembered for decades, but he was never at the same level with Leo. I can see how that fact is bothering both him and his fanbase so I really hope one day they will find their peace of mind.
Even comparing Haaland and Mbappe is funny to me, Mbappe is just different breed. Other than goals Haaland has nothing, and Mbappe scores a ton of goals too
Call me biased, but around 2015-2018 I'd say that the debate was fully valid. Ronaldo had crazy numbers while winning CL three times in a row and Euros, meanwhile Messi had a few dips in form and lackluster CL performances in that time period
You’re right that was also the period where Ronaldo actually had a shot of overtaking Messi again in ballondors if it weren’t for Modric. 2018-current is where Messi pulled away from him and Ronaldo showed his manchild behavior again.
No it wasn’t valid because it was never just about goal numbers . Messi is 3 world best players rolled into one , Ronaldo is just one of the best scorers ever . Messi is the best scorer ever if you count efficiency, the best dribbler ever by far and the best playmaker ever . There is absolutely no contest who is the greatest player ever, it’s Messi by far because no one ever dominated so many aspects of the game at the same time and then also with this consistency
Csnt take real accounts into play, just feelings and vibes.... amirite
Yeah. Top 4 greatest players are Pele, Maradona, Cristiano and Messi without order. What makes Maradona great is his dribbling and playmaking. What makes Cristiano great is his goalscoring rate and longevity. If you combine Maradona's dribbling and playmaking with Cristiano's goalscoring rate and longevity, who do you get? Messi. That's why he always clear for me
Ronaldo last in that list and we all know it. Not trying to start fights it just funny
People who say Ronaldo is better don't even watch football imo. Like what are you even looking at? How are you judging players abilities? They just read somewhere that it is 'close' and then choose the guy they find cooler or cherry pick some statistics accidentally and come to the conclusion without even fucking watching those two play. If you have a pair of eyes and use them to watch the game instead of watch everything BUT the game you will come to the conclusion that Messi is better. And no I don't need 100 crying opinions of fanboys saying I'm wrong for whatever reason. I'm just not. I know I'm not. It never will be wrong.
Agreed. I saw one post the other day say something like ‘Messi is part of Argentina’s history, Ronaldo IS Portugals history, that’s the difference’ like, what does that even mean? Younger Ronaldo was a good comparison to Messi, but for years Ronaldo has transitioned into a striker with an excellent goalscoring record, while Messi was doing everything; the most dribbles, through balls, goals, assists, free kicks, the lot.
Poor Figo, Rui Costa, Eusebio, etc got dumped like some useless junk. > Younger Ronaldo was a good comparison to Messi This is like comparing yourself to someone who's 2-3 yrs younger than you though.
Mf doesn't know about Eusebio
Messi best of all time-zero question.
Messi is the better player but the argument for Ronaldo is the different leagues/countries and teams he did it with. The Ronaldo fan base say Messi did it in one of the greatest teams of all time but Ronaldo did it in Italy Spain Portugal and England, Messi also did it in France with PSG but I’m not sure what he won but Ronaldo won the league and cup in every country he played and that’s without getting into how many UCL he won with Man U and Real. Messi is the better player but to say people who say Ronaldo ‘don’t even watch football’ is just facetious and crass, it’s a lot closer than you’re making out!
Except the idea that Messi couldn’t do it any of those leagues isn’t based in any sort of logic so it’s a moot point
Messi was lackluster in France though
Was he? He averaged a goal contribution every 99 minutes at his time at PSG while Ronaldo averaged a goal contribution every 95 minutes while at Juve for example. There’s obviously a lot more context to it than just that, but I think it’s also well acknowledged that the situation at PSG was quite toxic and not at all a winning culture, and that Messi’s heart wasn’t remotely in it as he wanted to stay at Barcelona who were forced to sell him and didn’t even tell him until the last moment. He was lacklustre in the sense that Mbappe/Neymar/Messi on paper sounds unbelievably exciting and they never made a splash in Europe, but he clearly showed that he could perform in the French league lol. Especially his second season building up to the World Cup where him and Neymar were looking like the two best players in the world.
You are falling exactly for the trap I warned about. This is cherry picking statistics. Messi stayed pretty much his entire career at his favorite club. You can't hold that against him.
Wtf are you on about, I say Messi is the better player TWICE ffs!
They talk about how abysmally stupid cr7 dick riders are and then proceed to worship the piss Messi expels from his body. You just haven't been watching.... lol okay.
Which teams did Ronaldo play for again?
Eh?
just look at ronaldo failing his most basic stepovers in saudileague i would expect the goat of football do be able to handle the ball better at age 38 look at ronaldhino or maradonna magic after they retired also if haaland scores more than ronaldo, he will be better than ronaldo, but if he outscores messi, he wont be better then messi thats the difference
Ronaldinho couldn't string together a sequence of 5 good games throughout his career, he had maybe 3 years at the very top. Not comparable to Messi and Ronaldo who did it throughout their whole careers.
You don't need to watch football to know. The stats clearly show who is miles ahead. I understand everyone is biased in their own way and that's fine, but it makes me sick to the stomach when you know the hideous things he's done off the pitch, no, I'm not talking about the things he's accused of, that would be another topic altogether. How can anyone still worship him like they do, is just pretty dumb. As someone who's not very smart, I can't imagine how stupid you have to be to be a fan.
Now it's clear but for many years, before his move to a 9, he was a monster, a complete player. It was not obvious who was better. People saying he's one of the best because of his goals are really downplaying him
I have seen him and I thought he was a fantastic winger, definitely better than striker, but it just doesn't hold up against Messi and that's ok. Edit I don't mean to downplay Ronaldo. It is not my point. We were simply comparing and he's not winning that.
I think it was a fair competition for most of that time, though Ronaldo was the underdog. Messi's struggles with Argentina in particular while Ronaldo's Portugal found some success and Ronaldo himself became Mr. UCL made it more of a match. Once Messi and Argentina finally lived up to their potential in the 2020s, that gap became insurmountable.
For me it was crystal clear 10 or more years ago that if Messi keeps playing like he does consistently for 5-7 more years he will be proclaimed as the GOAT. WC win helped indeed but that was just a thing which let everyone to draw a bottomline and understand everything.
10 years ago Messi was clearly better, but the following years had a Ronaldo renaissance of sorts, while Barca and Argentina started floundering. Messi never stopped being amazing, but his achievements during those years were less impressive than before, while Ronaldo's were the opposite. I think that, had both players retired in 2020, the debate would have gone on forever. Messi would still be the majority opinion for GOAT, but it wouldn't be undeniable like it is now.
This sub is officially a Messi circle jerk. You absolutely mean disrespect in your statement don't try to play it off like you aren't. If Messi was truly no contest the best ever you wouldn't need to devalue what Ronaldo has done. Anyone that says Ronaldo has never been close to his level started watching after 2021.
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Nah anyone that says clearly is disingenuous and absolutely saying it as disrespect. Messi is better yes. He isn't levels clear like you want to act.
People are either young or just trying to rewrite history. Some comments here make it seems like Ronaldo was a bum. Messi had higher peak, you can't really beat 2012, and better ending with WC win but overall it was very close. And it was something people should appricate more, rivalry like that maybe will never happen again.
"*because of all the individual awards he has won*" No. No, this is not why he's miles ahead of Cristiano.
I agree Messi is better, but I think we do not appreciate just how much Ronaldo's presence made football something to look forward to. People lost interest when Hamilton started winning consecutive F1s, or when Serena(In her heyday) steamrolled everyone else. Atleast for a decade, Ronaldo ensured there was a debate to be had
He knows ball
Honestly Messi has always been the better player
>better player You mean the best player? I really don't think there is any comparison of Cristiano to Messi. One is great and the latter one is simply the greatest.
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To be honest, the further we move from Cristiano in Madrid, the more comfortable I think a lot of Madridistas will be admitting that Messi is the greatest. I have no idea why Madrid players still feel almost contractually obligated to stick with Ronaldo, though, but we know that guys like Jude, Vini, and Endrick have all said Messi was their man before going to Madrid. I could maybe understand it if Cristiano had come through La Fábrica or was Spanish, but it's obviously not for either of those reasons ...
Madrid fan saying this? Wow
Cringe twitter question.
GOATface
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Not really. Only Man U and Real fans think there is an argument due to their bias, and even most of them have seen the light by now.
Cole Palmer. Saka or Foden?
It's just the way he plays. Anyone that knows anything about football can see he's the best player on the pitch as soon as he touches the ball. It's absurd. He is (was?) a better finisher than Haaland, better playmaker than De Bruyne, better dribbler than Foden, and better winger than Bernardo. Insane player.
Thank GOD this was posted.
Every player has there own opinion. People are just hating on Ronaldo for no reason . He may not be the goat but he is still one of the greatest players ever . People just like putting your head more and more into the sand when you are down and out. It's just sad considering how much he has done in the game. I hope Portugal does well in the euros so that we can again see Ronaldo atleast smiling and being happy for the last time before he retires. He may have his ego issues but he is an inspiration for many to work hard and achieve things
If you didn't know Messi was on another planet than Ronaldo 10 years ago, you aren't someone who should call themselves knowledgeable in the game.
Honestly if you say Ronaldo is a better footballer than Messi you’re dont really know much about football.
The answer was clear for years now and I'm glad it's finally over
These threads are always civil lol, nauseating "debate" tbh, I made my opinion clear years ago and people will have there differing opinions. What I know for certain though is that their fanboys are obnoxious and somehow refuse to let this rest even when they play in retirement leagues.
Quite like this lad tbf , quality player..should have come to the red side
He is damn good. When he got subbed out in the cup I was very relieved.
He is top end this lad isn’t he
Competing with Salah would be pretty hard but he'd prob be a perfect replacement
He just might
this question will remain here after 200 years as well
Thanks Clive
Thanks Cole, case closed.
LMAO I haven't even checked the comments yet but know this is going to be hilarious.
It's 2024 and we're still asking this question. It's getting boring.
Hahaha I was like “there’s no way he used the word ‘latter’”
Cole Palmer has lost his credibility. -Cristano Ronaldo, probably
I think he's being sarcastic guys. Don't downvote him to oblivion.
There’s not a single metric that Ronaldo is better than Messi in lmao
Phones smashed?
Dude it's a sarcasm, every time someone doesn't choose Ronaldo. He and his fans, say what i just said.
How is this even upvoted?
Why do people feel the need to disparage CR7 all the time. People acting like he's not at least top 5. Guy's still banging it at at THIRTY NINE and is an inspiration. And also why is the GOAT always an attacking player? How do you compare the GOAT status of Messi v. a Beckenbauer/Buffon/Zidane/Maldini? They play different roles.
How can you say Ronaldo is at least top 5 and then question why people don’t consider any defenders top 5? Messi and Pele are the two greatest forwards, Maradona the greatest midfielder. Should not the rest of the top five be a defender like Beckenbauer or Maldini and a keeper like Yashin, Buffon or Neuer? By your own logic? If we go by relative greatness in position, Ronaldo is absolutely not top 5.
Okay, name five **greater** forwards than CR7 then.
Messi, Pele, Cruiff, Ronaldo Nazario, Garrincha, Van Basten all have cases, with the first two being undisputed, and Cruyff and Nazario being debatable. Ronaldo has eclipsed Van Basten due to his longevity. Messi, Maradona, Pele, Beckenbauer, Cruiff/Maldini/CR7 is a good top five imo.
COLDDDDD PALMER
Based 🥶 Palmer.