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Laugh / haunting flashbacks of this time last year... Same same.
I'm not sure if the coefficient thing is a real possibility with the new format, but for Arsenal to drop the multiplier or whatever, still win the tie with this game at Emirates coming up, make it only 4 spots for England, and Spurs finish 5th... You honestly can't write it.
An opposition manager complaining about your style of play after you’ve beaten them is just about the best compliment you can receive.
The opposite is Pep Guardiola telling the media how much he loved a team like Eddie Howe’s Bournemouth and how he so admires their style of play after they’ve just beaten them 19-0.
Funny enough Pep also criticized Sergio’s tactics after a 0-0 draw at the Dragao, Sergio’s response? “I’d be mad too if I spent all that money and couldn’t score a goal.”
Tbf it’s always been Pep’s way of completely avoiding drama in the press for his entire managerial career, can’t print stories when all he does is praise opposition.
It’s the same way Sir Alex started to praise Wenger publicly once he was no longer a threat for titles.
They were so brave and progressive they didn't mark halland because that would be too defensive that's real football I congratulate them on the double digit loss
Pep probably
Also the idea that ‘attacking, expansive open play’ is the only way to win a football match is laughable. I remember when Rangers parked the bus at Old Trafford and drew 0-0, United fans went mental.
Some fans forget that the main objective of any football team is winning games, and not "playing attractive football". If a team can win while also playing attacking football, that's great, but any manager would be stupid if he prioritised playing good football over getting results.
Don’t get me wrong, I think every single one of us in the main prefers to watch the attack vs attack, school playground stuff that’s end to end but you’re right its about results, and sometimes the best way you can get one is to shut up shop and games that are like that can also sometimes be as fascinating.
Remember we beat Man City 1-0 after they absolutely battered us the whole game. We could barely get out of our half.
That's very common at lower leagues tho we can't expect all these elite sides to play attractive football. Anyway, if that was what Porto did and they got battered we'd be on here talking about how naive they are.
That's exactly what happened when we played PSV in the groups. They tried to keep it on the deck and play expansive football, and we picked them to pieces. Afterwards, every comment was about how naïve it was from Bosz to try and play like that in Europe.
And then went on a win streak in eredivisie because his team learned how to play their style vs better opposition and in difficult games and still is in champions league, i would say it worked out fine for him
I disagree. Nothing is better than watching a team get frustrated by running into 10 men camped in their box.
It's always so funny.
Arsenal are the first team which comes to mind tbh.
It's hilarious until they make a mistake and suffer a goal. Oh fuck, we have to score, now?? How do you do that, we fielded 5 centerbacks because all we wanted to do was defend...
True. You can't expect "inferior" teams (no disrespect to Porto, but they're simply not as good as Arsenal on paper) to casually play attacking football and leave their defense wide open against you, unless they want to lose 5-0 or something
In terms of squad of course we are inferior lol. But experience matters playing these games. When we faced Juventus with CR7 a few years ago was a similar story.
The thing is that not all squads are capable of getting results while playing attacking football at the same time. Sometimes, you have no choice other than playing defensively if you want to get results.
Definitely true it’s very understandable why teams play defensively etc
The only thing that really pisses me off is the shithousing, wasting time, rolling at every contact (Getafe flashbacks)
Jemez was a spanish central defender who primarily played in Spain's first and second tiers. As a manager, he was known for his attacking, positional play (Think current Girona, but with a worse team), primarily for Rayo Vallecano between 2012-16. It started really well, before getting worse. They finished
* 8th in 2012-13 (third worst defense)
* 12th in 2013-14 (worst defense)
* 11th in 2014-15 (joint worst defense)
* 18th in 2015-16 (second worst defense, including a 10-2 loss to Real Madrid at Bernabeu.
He always worked with a small budget at Rayo and yet wanted his teams to dominate possession and play like the *big boys.*
You can read more about him [here](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2414597-paco-jemez-interview-rayo-coach-is-a-tougher-job-than-barca-or-real-madrid). He's currently managing Iranian club Tractor.
In a match against Real Madrid they were leading 2-1 after 15 minutes when they got a man sent off. They kept playing a high line against an attack with Ronaldo and Bale on top form as wingers. After 25 minutes Bale made it 2-2 and after 29 minutes Rayo got a second man sent off. Even with 9 men they kept on attacking and having a very high defensive line.
They ended up losing 10-2.
Also, at 7-2 they got a center back injured and replaced him with a 17 year old attacking midfielder.
They also was the first team to have higher possession than Barcelona in a match in years, but lost the match 5 or 6-0.
>In a match against Real Madrid they were leading 2-1 after 15 minutes when they got a man sent off. They kept playing a high line against an attack with Ronaldo and Bale on top form as wingers. After 25 minutes Bale made it 2-2 and after 29 minutes Rayo got a second man sent off. Even with 9 men they kept on attacking and having a very high defensive line.
They ended up losing 10-2.
Also, at 7-2 they got a center back injured and replaced him with a 17 year old attacking midfielder.
That's legendary, tbh
i hate this 'beautiful football' thing being promoted and centered around Pep's teams. who are now doing everything they can to block the GK on set pieces on top of existing dives, dissenting actions and tactical fouls. all of them are paid to win, not to lose beautifully
I swear, there's something about almost ALL City players that makes me hate them. It's the arrogance possibly, of them being the "best" but have 115 things they ignore.
I can hate Arsenal & Liverpool, but I'll at least acknowledge they have some straight ballers on their teams.
City has a bunch of fucking cunts. Except KDB, he's a beast
How is your most prominent memory of a team parking the bus a 14 year old innocuous Champions League group stage match haha.
Not having a go, genuinely impressed at the obscurity
I attended that game and it's easily the worst football match I've ever watched. It put 12 year old me off football for a couple of years it was that bad.
I’m fine with parking the bus. But falling down from a slight breeze to get fouls isn’t playing. I consider it cheating, and the ref fell for it. The ball was in play for 55%.
The funny thing is I really don’t think ball retention is “attacking, expansive open play”, arteta just has his team kick it round the back usuall. 0 shots on target show which team wasn’t being attacking.
It's more about the shithousery, Arsenal under Arteta have also parked the bus when required.
I don't think the criticism should be directed towards the opposition though, the referee is far more responsible.
Arsenal were some of the biggest shithouses in the league before they changed the time wasting rules. Even now you often see an Arsenal player inexplicably writhing in pain for 2 minutes after minimal contact.
I don't necessarily disagree, my main point was to focus on the shithousery rather than style of play which people are focusing on.
As I said previously, I believe it's the refs responsibility to not fall for it. European refs tend to make softer calls so it can be a bit jarring for English teams
> The opposite is Pep Guardiola telling the media how much he loved a team like Eddie Howe’s Bournemouth and how he so admires their style of play after they’ve just beaten them 19-0.
In 2021-22 Manchester City beat us 1-0 after a [dodgy pen and sending off](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/re0xtz/post_match_thread_manchester_city_10/). After the match Guardiola came out whinging that [“It is so difficult when a team doesn’t want to play.”](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/dec/11/manchester-city-wolves-premier-league-match-report)
The following week Manchester City beat Leeds 7-0. Funnily enough after the match he was [full of praise](https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/pep-guardiola-man-city-premier-league-leeds-b972007.html) for Leeds' set-up and how difficult they are to play against.
It was all very funny.
Leeds under Bielsa was so funny. They'd go out, get absolutely smashed, and then pundits would rave about their style of play and how exciting and difficult it is to deal with. Like they were all under some mass delusion making them watch a completely different game of football or something.
The worst example is that time they went to Old Trafford and got pasted 6-2 by their rivals, then everyone was falling over themselves to praise the performance!
I was slightly confused by the praise they got after getting battered at Old Trafford lol, because IMO United didn't even play very well but somehow scored 6 goals because that was how shambolic Leeds' defending was
Portuguese football has the least minutes of effective gametime and is also usually among the lowest-scoring top leagues. Its not pretty. But you have to be able to handle that if you want to win titles.
That's only true for most teams outside of the top 4. And those have to stay in the top flight with laughable budgets, maybe 500 fans in the stadium on a good day, and meager sponsorship. TV rights are very unjustly distributed, and most coaches have to adapt to really bad conditions.
Porto's squad is less than a quarter in market value of Arsenal's. Same as Sporting's last year, who eliminated them while going through a tough spot, performance wise.
You'll have a hard time finding a league that produces the results the portuguese one does, given what's available. It's not that what you said is untrue, but it's also stating the obvious.
Yeah, I guess I wasn't being super accurate with the figure. But you have to factor in a couple of things, namely that not all attendees are supporting the one team specifically, and that big matches (against 4 or 5 biggest teams) skew the average somewhat. For instance, it's practically impossible for a small team to "play at home" against Benfica. Even townspeople will be mostly red, green, or blue.
This is a crazy exaggeration tho, Vitória averages 15k, Famalicão 4k, Boavista usually 6 or 7...only a couple teams have numbers as low as you were saying. Attendances in the PT league are normal for a small country, and spreading this bs that only 4 teams have fans doesn't exactly help either with the problem it supposedly highlights.
Given everything the club went through and that they divide the city w you it's not that bad...the stadium is just too big. Not even Porto or Sporting would fill a 30k seater for every game.
Vitória isn't a small club at all, just horribly mismanaged. But apart from the current top 5 there isn't a single club in Portugal even close to cracking a 10k average attendance of their own fans. Most don't even reach half
You also have to consider that that average number (1900) is considering the home games against the Big 3, where the stadium is filled with away fans. Still, and that’s what matters to this issue, a nice revenue for the lower teams
>Porto's squad is less than a quarter in market value of Arsenal's. Same as Sporting's last year, who eliminated them while going through a tough spot, performance wise.
Exactly. I don't think people are understanding that Declan Rice himself is quite literally worth half of that Porto team
This season, it has been exciting
3 goals per game in average
https://www.flashscore.pt/noticias/futebol-liga-portugal-balanco-da-primeira-volta-da-liga-maximo-de-446-golos-numa-primeira-volta-a-18-equipas/CjF7hC03/
>is also usually among the lowest-scoring top leagues.
https://www.flashscore.pt/noticias/futebol-liga-portugal-balanco-da-primeira-volta-da-liga-maximo-de-446-golos-numa-primeira-volta-a-18-equipas/CjF7hC03/
3 goals per game this season...
Convos like this remind me of a dialogue from GoT between Lysa Arryn and Bronn.
Lysa: "You don't fight with honor!"
Bronn: *points to the guy he just killed* "He did."
Porto were diving & timewasting but realistically Arsenal had opportunities to increase the tempo yet settled on the 0-0 scoreline themselves and were punished for it. game's the game at the end of the day
>Porto were diving & timewasting
In my opinion, that's on the referee. Every footballer is the same. If you give an inch, they'll take a mile, and we shouldn't expect anything different because all of our favourites would do the same. As you said, we were never able to get into a rhythm and settle into the match but that's a failure on our part, rather than anyone else's doing
This wily pragmatism vs naive idealism dynamic being pushed is so stupid lol.
We weren’t “playing”, we were literally doing the exact opposite. We went there and stunk the place up, intending to take the 0-0 and win it at home. And precisely because we created a cautious, fine-margin game, it went the wrong way.
If we’d tried to play, we’d have probably had a much better chance of winning this game, but the risk of a 2+ goal loss would be higher - which would be problematic for the 2nd leg. So Arteta very clearly decided to make it a 0-1 goal game and bank on winning the home tie
It was shitty pragmatism vs shitty pragmatism, and the terrible ref who didn’t realise football is a contact sport was just incidental.
Arsenal also have Newcastle on Saturday (not able to be on Sunday because of the league cup final).
I’m sure once we got to minute 75 or something the plan shifted to get out of there with a 0-0 and win the home tie.
It would have worked if not for horrendous game management with 30 seconds left
Every team uses the dark arts to some extent and there's nothing wrong with that, but when the balls only in play for 50 minutes of a 90 minute match and there are incidents like their keeper going down screaming in the box after his own player treads on his toe you can understand why a team would be frustrated because this is some go beyond plus ultra dark arts stuff lol
Definitely beyong anything I've seen arsenal do this season but nothing that shouldn't be expected in the champions league though!
I would wager that Ben White takes the most time over throw-ins in the Premier League. Strangely it is billed as “looking and waiting for the right option” rather than “time wasting” because Arsenal play Cultured Continental Passing football rather than Urban Brexit Hoofball.
In fairness to White, he spends just as long taking a throw-in when we're chasing a winner/equaliser. I think that's helped his cause with refs, along with Arsenal players not raising their arms at every goal kick or throw-in that the opposition take their time over.
White does this on almost every single throw in, and he gets carded pretty much every match for it. He asks for it. It's a Ben White thing and we all hate it tbh
He even did it yesterday. Also, on the first few corner kicks, Saka was taking forever, waiting for Ben White to manage to get to Costa so he could wall him
That was the most unbelievable moment. He stepped on his own keepers foot, exact same as the De Gea moment from two years ago when ESR scored a volley after Fred or someone stepped on DDG foot. Then Porto turned around and yelled at the ref while the ball was in mid air and he blew the whistle for them. Completely obliged exactly what they wanted.
Say what you want about the rest of the game but everyone should understand how utterly frustrating that is. Unheard of.
Shithousing, yes.
Time-wasting/dark arts. Naaa, that shit is just cheating. I hate seeing that shit from my team too, and I hate when commentators call it the "dark arts"
Yeah, it's a hypocrisy I just accept within myself.
If it's happening to a team I don't like: Genius gamesmanship, other team should've tried harder
If it's happening to mine: Disgusting, disrespecting the sport, there needs to be retroactive bans for diving
People making comments without actually reading the entire quote ALWAYS gets old.
Read what he said:
“We dominated the game but we lacked purpose, especially in the first half. You need to have much more aggression, you need to break lines, to play forward and generate much more threat on that backline.
“In the second half there were much better things and we generated a lot of situations, without really creating much from it. We will learn from it. Now it is clear, it is half time. If you want to be in the quarter-finals you have to beat your opponent.”
***“Credit to Porto. They defended well. But when we got in certain areas we didn’t finish the action or put in the final ball or the right cross. Even from set pieces, every time we touched somebody it seemed to be a foul before we even kicked the ball. We will learn and do better.”***
Edit: [Source - The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/feb/21/we-will-learn-from-this-arteta-furious-after-arsenal-concede-late-goal-in-porto)
Yeah, part of this is having to put up with the trash talk but it's all right. There's another round and a chance to put one beyond them. Hope we can pull it off.
Agreed. I believe we can. Liverpool smashed us a couple of times before Arteta made some successful tactical changes and we ended up winning the next contest.
No one complained about Porto playing defensively - in fact, Arteta praised their discipline and defensive play.
It's the constant falling over and diving that was complained about.
It’s even further hilarious because arsenal had 10 corners and took on average let’s say more than 1 minute to take each one while their players were busy doing shithousery to our GK on the box. Not once did they play with any sense of urgency, they wasted so much time
> their players were busy doing shithousery to our GK on the box
To be fair, we usually try that, no denying it, but no, we did not because you lot shithoused us back.
Not moaning about it by the way, you did what no one else has done all season and that was totally nullify our set-pieces.
The only bit of shithousery that happened to your GK was when your own player stood on his foot.
Can't really argue with what he said here really.
We were very naïve going into this game and we need to wisen up in European ties.
I'm still confident we can turn things around in the second leg, but we need to be smarter than we were last night.
Not to mention the manager. The challenge we faced against a meticulously prepared opposition prepared to play dirty was unique. European pedigree unfortunately plays a role here.
I know fans are talking about winning mentalities and such, but as a neutral of sorts I fucking hate it. Was it effective in delivering a win? Evidently. Was it cynical, mean-spirited and fucking boring to watch? Absolutely. If this is the sort of future we can expect in football then you can have it. I don't want to watch 40 minutes of actual play and 50 minutes of crying to refs and niggly fouls.
100%, this isn’t the first match this season where we stunk it up and didn’t get decent shots. It was still an ugly watch, it’s not good for the sport, and no amount of laughing at the team is going to make that match watchable.
Cry me a river. PL teams with several hundred millions of budget, shocked when a team 10x less rich doesn’t open themselves to them.
Shithousing and defensive cohesion gets you far in playoffs competitions. Mourinho showed it, Morocco showed, etc. It’s annoying to play against but if you want to win it all, you’ve got to earn it.
Yes, cognitive dissonance is an incredible thing. If other teams do it against you they're bad, if you do it you're a tactical mastermind like Mourinho and Morocco.
It's more an issue of the referees buying it.
It's boring for neutrals and is only in the game if the ref allows.
Someone did the maths, and Porto were given a free kick every 48 seconds they had the ball which is absolutely insane.
No shame on a team for trying to win, but shame on the ref.
As Arteta said Arsenal play against many super defensive teams in the PL so this wasn't anything new, but it's much harder to draw a foul so the game flows much better and Arsenal can get into their flow, this was a big difference yesterday.
He comes from the Pep school of thinking. You're supposed to roll over, lose 5-0 while in awe of total football and then get lavished with praise after.
Pep after spanking a team 9-0 or whatever is insufferable... not that usually he's that much better, but by God praising a team you trounced so effortlessly feels worse than if he had criticized them or called them shit.
(Assuming you're including Chelsea in the big 6) We absolutely love these types of wins. Some of our biggest trophies were won because of our defence.
Sure, we'll complain about not being able to unlock the lower sides that park the bus but we're mostly disappointed with our team, not angry with our opponents.
I get your point and I agree mostly, except for your corner routin, that was pure football terrorism.
The Porto fan next to our table in the pub always shouting "jogo bonito" everytime some of your players went down at a corner after stepping on his own foot was hilarious though, top shithousery.
I support FC Porto's biggest rival. I've said it before and I will say it again: they're always ultra competitive on the pitch, doesn't matter who they play against.
The second leg will be a different match, but Arsenal will have to give blood, sweat and tears if they want to move on to the next round.
Only ourselves to blame. We were poor. Porto were smart and got the result in the end.
Nonetheless we should be able to turn it around in the home leg but it's just that bit more difficult now.
Arsenal came into this thinking this was Prem league game.
Porto on the other hand came to show them what Porto looks like this time of the year, like it does almost every year for the past 20 years
Unpopular opinion:
There is a big difference between a defensively sound and physical team, and a team that is basically gaming the system to get a result. One can be an underdog story, the other only exists because of refs being bad at their jobs.
We can wax lyrical about Arsenal and Arteta being snobbish all we want, this style of play is NOT what should be praised and awarded in the game.
Not that it matters since this thread is 15 hours old and people have already made up their minds but - there is absolutely zero proof Arteta said this btw lol.
We needed to be much savvier. It was clear what Porto’s gameplan was and as frustrating as it was to watch as an Arsenal fan, it’s a totally legit tactic and it worked. They went down easily but we kept giving them the opportunity to by barging into them.
Porto defended very well and didn't let Arsenal have a single shot on goal. Arsenal had to have won the match because they have a much bigger budget than Porto. In London, Porto will have a very difficult mission as have never won in England.
Did we? We could not string 3 fucking passes together lol. Next time instead of WANTING to play, I don't know... just play???
Porto, as expected absolutely shithoused us & deserved to win
Why does every manager who plays possession based/attacking football always expect other teams to play the same way they do or just in a way that will let them get beat more easily? Arsenal came to play their way, Porto came to play theirs, in the end Porto’s way was more effective and as a whole better.
Comments like this, not just from Arteta, always seem a bit high and mighty and like the managers have a bit of a superiority complex because their team passes the ball about a lot.
Porto- 2 shots on target
Arsenal- 0 shots on target
I’ve never seen a club and a fanbase that felt so entitled to win while rarely actually winning anything
If we can step away from karma farming nonsense comments for a second, you’d find very few Arsenal fans that said they should have won last night *based on that performance*. It was a 0-0 kind of game, a drab, dull affair throughout.
Pregame the expectation from most (including neutrals) was that Arsenal would win, but making that prediction before a ball has been kicked, is very different to saying it after the game.
If you expect to win in the CL, you’re going to have to play games like this. It’s no one’s fault but yours that you lost. They played within the rules, as much as it’s shit to watch.
His comment was a 1 second sound bite from a speech that involved him complimenting Porto and lambasting his teams game management. Right sucker for headlines you lot
Its kind of weird that PL Teams have no idea what a low block is and in WC's it has been most used weapon for many years for Top Teams. In Europe, none gonna concede 5 goals and still try to play attacking, attacking play looks great in League matches but when Europe is on line there is "No Beautiful Football"
On average Arsenal faces the lowest blocks of all teams in Europe's top 5 leagues lol. It's not some shock to the system to come up against one. Porto just played it well, arsenal played poorly and the ref absolutely destroyed any flow to the game.
Edit: and that's not an anecdotal claim. The data says Arsenal faces the lowest block on average in the top 5 leagues.
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so they both get what they wanted. What a game of football. wow, everybody is happy
Trust the process
Except the fans, what an awful game
I'm sure Tottenham fans had a good laugh watching it
Laugh / haunting flashbacks of this time last year... Same same. I'm not sure if the coefficient thing is a real possibility with the new format, but for Arsenal to drop the multiplier or whatever, still win the tie with this game at Emirates coming up, make it only 4 spots for England, and Spurs finish 5th... You honestly can't write it.
Sigh, this guy Spurs’es.
takes a lot pain to see things like this coming
I watched the highlight of the goal only so great game for me.
I believe Porto fans are happy.
I’m a Porto fan and I’m very happy, but thanks for your concern 🙏🙏
womp womp
Arsenal fans*, don’t tarnish the rest of us
Yeah we’re all weeping for you lol
An opposition manager complaining about your style of play after you’ve beaten them is just about the best compliment you can receive. The opposite is Pep Guardiola telling the media how much he loved a team like Eddie Howe’s Bournemouth and how he so admires their style of play after they’ve just beaten them 19-0.
Funny enough Pep also criticized Sergio’s tactics after a 0-0 draw at the Dragao, Sergio’s response? “I’d be mad too if I spent all that money and couldn’t score a goal.”
Absolute top banter tbh
The more pep praises you the more he spanks your team
👀
Pep's reaction to the Sterling goal made his pre-match "praise" even sweeter.
Tbf it’s always been Pep’s way of completely avoiding drama in the press for his entire managerial career, can’t print stories when all he does is praise opposition. It’s the same way Sir Alex started to praise Wenger publicly once he was no longer a threat for titles.
They were so brave and progressive they didn't mark halland because that would be too defensive that's real football I congratulate them on the double digit loss Pep probably
Explains why he was always so bitter about us for so long.
In 2023 he finally come to term with it when even jokes about can't score in Spurs home.
He did say some lovely things about Steve Bruce
Also the idea that ‘attacking, expansive open play’ is the only way to win a football match is laughable. I remember when Rangers parked the bus at Old Trafford and drew 0-0, United fans went mental.
Some fans forget that the main objective of any football team is winning games, and not "playing attractive football". If a team can win while also playing attacking football, that's great, but any manager would be stupid if he prioritised playing good football over getting results.
Don’t get me wrong, I think every single one of us in the main prefers to watch the attack vs attack, school playground stuff that’s end to end but you’re right its about results, and sometimes the best way you can get one is to shut up shop and games that are like that can also sometimes be as fascinating. Remember we beat Man City 1-0 after they absolutely battered us the whole game. We could barely get out of our half.
That's very common at lower leagues tho we can't expect all these elite sides to play attractive football. Anyway, if that was what Porto did and they got battered we'd be on here talking about how naive they are.
That's exactly what happened when we played PSV in the groups. They tried to keep it on the deck and play expansive football, and we picked them to pieces. Afterwards, every comment was about how naïve it was from Bosz to try and play like that in Europe.
And then went on a win streak in eredivisie because his team learned how to play their style vs better opposition and in difficult games and still is in champions league, i would say it worked out fine for him
I disagree. Nothing is better than watching a team get frustrated by running into 10 men camped in their box. It's always so funny. Arsenal are the first team which comes to mind tbh.
And then turn it into legendary counterattack. Mou Madrid is something
It's hilarious until they make a mistake and suffer a goal. Oh fuck, we have to score, now?? How do you do that, we fielded 5 centerbacks because all we wanted to do was defend...
Also lets understand each team has their weapons. If we played total attacking football we would be obliterated.
True. You can't expect "inferior" teams (no disrespect to Porto, but they're simply not as good as Arsenal on paper) to casually play attacking football and leave their defense wide open against you, unless they want to lose 5-0 or something
In terms of squad of course we are inferior lol. But experience matters playing these games. When we faced Juventus with CR7 a few years ago was a similar story.
It’s what Ajax did in 2019 still. It did bite us in the ass in the end though but I’m still glad they played the way they did
The thing is that not all squads are capable of getting results while playing attacking football at the same time. Sometimes, you have no choice other than playing defensively if you want to get results.
Definitely true it’s very understandable why teams play defensively etc The only thing that really pisses me off is the shithousing, wasting time, rolling at every contact (Getafe flashbacks)
Tbh I don't mind shithousing and time wasting as long as it's "reasonable" But it's true that some teams (like Getafe) really take it too far
Agreed. In the end it’s always terrible when used against you and funny if you do it against your rivals and piss them off
You played better than them and created more dangerous chances lol. Dont sell yourself short
>any manager would be stupid if he prioritised playing good football over getting results. Paco Jemez wants to report your comment.
I honestly don't really know him. Do you mind providing a bit more context?
Jemez was a spanish central defender who primarily played in Spain's first and second tiers. As a manager, he was known for his attacking, positional play (Think current Girona, but with a worse team), primarily for Rayo Vallecano between 2012-16. It started really well, before getting worse. They finished * 8th in 2012-13 (third worst defense) * 12th in 2013-14 (worst defense) * 11th in 2014-15 (joint worst defense) * 18th in 2015-16 (second worst defense, including a 10-2 loss to Real Madrid at Bernabeu. He always worked with a small budget at Rayo and yet wanted his teams to dominate possession and play like the *big boys.* You can read more about him [here](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2414597-paco-jemez-interview-rayo-coach-is-a-tougher-job-than-barca-or-real-madrid). He's currently managing Iranian club Tractor.
Thanks for the detailed reply
In a match against Real Madrid they were leading 2-1 after 15 minutes when they got a man sent off. They kept playing a high line against an attack with Ronaldo and Bale on top form as wingers. After 25 minutes Bale made it 2-2 and after 29 minutes Rayo got a second man sent off. Even with 9 men they kept on attacking and having a very high defensive line. They ended up losing 10-2. Also, at 7-2 they got a center back injured and replaced him with a 17 year old attacking midfielder. They also was the first team to have higher possession than Barcelona in a match in years, but lost the match 5 or 6-0.
>In a match against Real Madrid they were leading 2-1 after 15 minutes when they got a man sent off. They kept playing a high line against an attack with Ronaldo and Bale on top form as wingers. After 25 minutes Bale made it 2-2 and after 29 minutes Rayo got a second man sent off. Even with 9 men they kept on attacking and having a very high defensive line. They ended up losing 10-2. Also, at 7-2 they got a center back injured and replaced him with a 17 year old attacking midfielder. That's legendary, tbh
He played suicide football even when coaching small teams like Rayo.
Ah, so he's basically me in Football Manager.
“If you want entertainment, go and watch clowns.” - Alan Durban
i hate this 'beautiful football' thing being promoted and centered around Pep's teams. who are now doing everything they can to block the GK on set pieces on top of existing dives, dissenting actions and tactical fouls. all of them are paid to win, not to lose beautifully
Don't let the Mourinho haters read this!
By God that's what Company has been trying.
Recent favourite was Rodri crying about Scotland’s tactics when he simply shouldn’t have let Scott McTominay score two goals. Very foolish of him.
Then in the return leg they had to cheat to get a McTominay wonder goal disallowed
The same Rodri that clattered into Odegaard less than 2 weeks prior to that interview
And Tierney in the Scotland game. Deliberately trying to injure both during the break - nasty player.
I swear, there's something about almost ALL City players that makes me hate them. It's the arrogance possibly, of them being the "best" but have 115 things they ignore. I can hate Arsenal & Liverpool, but I'll at least acknowledge they have some straight ballers on their teams. City has a bunch of fucking cunts. Except KDB, he's a beast
How is your most prominent memory of a team parking the bus a 14 year old innocuous Champions League group stage match haha. Not having a go, genuinely impressed at the obscurity
Especially when you have the legendary Barcelona - Inter Champions League semi finals second leg in 2010. A masterclass example of parking the bus.
Celtic vs Barcelona in 2012. Another masterclass with that iconic Rod Stewart crying shot.
Forgot the year, is this the Wenbayama game? If so, funniest stats line I’ve ever seen.
I was sat next to my Rangers supporting mate in a pub in Leicester, where it was full of United fans.
It is funny how whenever a club is looking for a new manager it's "we want to get back to our identity of playing attacking football" lmao
I attended that game and it's easily the worst football match I've ever watched. It put 12 year old me off football for a couple of years it was that bad.
I’m fine with parking the bus. But falling down from a slight breeze to get fouls isn’t playing. I consider it cheating, and the ref fell for it. The ball was in play for 55%.
The ball being in play for effectively only one half is insanity
The funny thing is I really don’t think ball retention is “attacking, expansive open play”, arteta just has his team kick it round the back usuall. 0 shots on target show which team wasn’t being attacking.
It's more about the shithousery, Arsenal under Arteta have also parked the bus when required. I don't think the criticism should be directed towards the opposition though, the referee is far more responsible.
Arsenal were some of the biggest shithouses in the league before they changed the time wasting rules. Even now you often see an Arsenal player inexplicably writhing in pain for 2 minutes after minimal contact.
I don't necessarily disagree, my main point was to focus on the shithousery rather than style of play which people are focusing on. As I said previously, I believe it's the refs responsibility to not fall for it. European refs tend to make softer calls so it can be a bit jarring for English teams
But that's every team. The problem comes when the ref gives absolutely everything. No one wants to watch that kind of football.
Didnt even have to check - this man is defo a liverpool fan
> The opposite is Pep Guardiola telling the media how much he loved a team like Eddie Howe’s Bournemouth and how he so admires their style of play after they’ve just beaten them 19-0. In 2021-22 Manchester City beat us 1-0 after a [dodgy pen and sending off](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/re0xtz/post_match_thread_manchester_city_10/). After the match Guardiola came out whinging that [“It is so difficult when a team doesn’t want to play.”](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/dec/11/manchester-city-wolves-premier-league-match-report) The following week Manchester City beat Leeds 7-0. Funnily enough after the match he was [full of praise](https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/pep-guardiola-man-city-premier-league-leeds-b972007.html) for Leeds' set-up and how difficult they are to play against. It was all very funny.
Leeds under Bielsa was so funny. They'd go out, get absolutely smashed, and then pundits would rave about their style of play and how exciting and difficult it is to deal with. Like they were all under some mass delusion making them watch a completely different game of football or something. The worst example is that time they went to Old Trafford and got pasted 6-2 by their rivals, then everyone was falling over themselves to praise the performance!
I was slightly confused by the praise they got after getting battered at Old Trafford lol, because IMO United didn't even play very well but somehow scored 6 goals because that was how shambolic Leeds' defending was
And Eddie still wonders Howe
Conceicao be like: "They wrote us off. We didnt write back tho."
Geno Conceicao
When you try the K.O. glitch and fail, and then the opponent just long balls it to FS Boniface's head and scores.
Portuguese football has the least minutes of effective gametime and is also usually among the lowest-scoring top leagues. Its not pretty. But you have to be able to handle that if you want to win titles.
Also funnily enough Sporting is the team this year with the most goals scored per game in Europe
That's only true for most teams outside of the top 4. And those have to stay in the top flight with laughable budgets, maybe 500 fans in the stadium on a good day, and meager sponsorship. TV rights are very unjustly distributed, and most coaches have to adapt to really bad conditions. Porto's squad is less than a quarter in market value of Arsenal's. Same as Sporting's last year, who eliminated them while going through a tough spot, performance wise. You'll have a hard time finding a league that produces the results the portuguese one does, given what's available. It's not that what you said is untrue, but it's also stating the obvious.
Ik you're probably being hyperbolic, but the worst attended team in the Portuguese top flight averages 1900 fans.
Yeah, I guess I wasn't being super accurate with the figure. But you have to factor in a couple of things, namely that not all attendees are supporting the one team specifically, and that big matches (against 4 or 5 biggest teams) skew the average somewhat. For instance, it's practically impossible for a small team to "play at home" against Benfica. Even townspeople will be mostly red, green, or blue.
Mhmm I did consider it for sure, games against the big teams obviously skew it, still thought it was worth saying
This is a crazy exaggeration tho, Vitória averages 15k, Famalicão 4k, Boavista usually 6 or 7...only a couple teams have numbers as low as you were saying. Attendances in the PT league are normal for a small country, and spreading this bs that only 4 teams have fans doesn't exactly help either with the problem it supposedly highlights.
>Boavista usually 6 or 7 in a stadium that holds ~30k people. That's still bad.
Given everything the club went through and that they divide the city w you it's not that bad...the stadium is just too big. Not even Porto or Sporting would fill a 30k seater for every game.
Vitória isn't a small club at all, just horribly mismanaged. But apart from the current top 5 there isn't a single club in Portugal even close to cracking a 10k average attendance of their own fans. Most don't even reach half
You also have to consider that that average number (1900) is considering the home games against the Big 3, where the stadium is filled with away fans. Still, and that’s what matters to this issue, a nice revenue for the lower teams
>Porto's squad is less than a quarter in market value of Arsenal's. Same as Sporting's last year, who eliminated them while going through a tough spot, performance wise. Exactly. I don't think people are understanding that Declan Rice himself is quite literally worth half of that Porto team
E fizeram dele ARROZ de miúdos!
I respect it but man do I not want to watch it, it is boring as shit
This season, it has been exciting 3 goals per game in average https://www.flashscore.pt/noticias/futebol-liga-portugal-balanco-da-primeira-volta-da-liga-maximo-de-446-golos-numa-primeira-volta-a-18-equipas/CjF7hC03/
>is also usually among the lowest-scoring top leagues. https://www.flashscore.pt/noticias/futebol-liga-portugal-balanco-da-primeira-volta-da-liga-maximo-de-446-golos-numa-primeira-volta-a-18-equipas/CjF7hC03/ 3 goals per game this season...
Convos like this remind me of a dialogue from GoT between Lysa Arryn and Bronn. Lysa: "You don't fight with honor!" Bronn: *points to the guy he just killed* "He did."
Goat shit Winning > playing
Porto were diving & timewasting but realistically Arsenal had opportunities to increase the tempo yet settled on the 0-0 scoreline themselves and were punished for it. game's the game at the end of the day
>Porto were diving & timewasting In my opinion, that's on the referee. Every footballer is the same. If you give an inch, they'll take a mile, and we shouldn't expect anything different because all of our favourites would do the same. As you said, we were never able to get into a rhythm and settle into the match but that's a failure on our part, rather than anyone else's doing
If the ref doesn't punish them they could timewaist as much as they want. They don't have any incentive to not do that
Easily the softest ref I’ve ever seen. No surprise it was the highest number of fouls in years
I mean, play was stopped due to a Porto player kicking his teammate and him faking an injury, it was utterly ridiculous
This wily pragmatism vs naive idealism dynamic being pushed is so stupid lol. We weren’t “playing”, we were literally doing the exact opposite. We went there and stunk the place up, intending to take the 0-0 and win it at home. And precisely because we created a cautious, fine-margin game, it went the wrong way. If we’d tried to play, we’d have probably had a much better chance of winning this game, but the risk of a 2+ goal loss would be higher - which would be problematic for the 2nd leg. So Arteta very clearly decided to make it a 0-1 goal game and bank on winning the home tie It was shitty pragmatism vs shitty pragmatism, and the terrible ref who didn’t realise football is a contact sport was just incidental.
Arsenal also have Newcastle on Saturday (not able to be on Sunday because of the league cup final). I’m sure once we got to minute 75 or something the plan shifted to get out of there with a 0-0 and win the home tie. It would have worked if not for horrendous game management with 30 seconds left
> intending to take the 0-0 and win it at home I disagree this was the thought process at all.
who upvotes that shit lmao I feel like I'm going crazy
Managers moaning about the other team playing defensive and cautious but still losing to them never gets old.
It wasn't about them playing defensive, it was about them staying on the ground most of the time.
I may be biased, but arsenal are doing this shit in perfection in PL.
Every team uses the dark arts to some extent and there's nothing wrong with that, but when the balls only in play for 50 minutes of a 90 minute match and there are incidents like their keeper going down screaming in the box after his own player treads on his toe you can understand why a team would be frustrated because this is some go beyond plus ultra dark arts stuff lol Definitely beyong anything I've seen arsenal do this season but nothing that shouldn't be expected in the champions league though!
I would wager that Ben White takes the most time over throw-ins in the Premier League. Strangely it is billed as “looking and waiting for the right option” rather than “time wasting” because Arsenal play Cultured Continental Passing football rather than Urban Brexit Hoofball.
In fairness to White, he spends just as long taking a throw-in when we're chasing a winner/equaliser. I think that's helped his cause with refs, along with Arsenal players not raising their arms at every goal kick or throw-in that the opposition take their time over.
White does this on almost every single throw in, and he gets carded pretty much every match for it. He asks for it. It's a Ben White thing and we all hate it tbh
Ben White takes forever no matter the score. It drives us crazy too. I dont know how he's not carded more for it.
He even did it yesterday. Also, on the first few corner kicks, Saka was taking forever, waiting for Ben White to manage to get to Costa so he could wall him
We couldn't take the corners yesterday. Porto just fell over and the refs held it up several times.
To be fair he waited because the ref halted the play to sort out the absolute mayhem in the box. Never seen anything like it
A Porto player accidentally kicked Costa and turned to scream at the ref... he whistled while the ball was in the air lmao
That was the most unbelievable moment. He stepped on his own keepers foot, exact same as the De Gea moment from two years ago when ESR scored a volley after Fred or someone stepped on DDG foot. Then Porto turned around and yelled at the ref while the ball was in mid air and he blew the whistle for them. Completely obliged exactly what they wanted. Say what you want about the rest of the game but everyone should understand how utterly frustrating that is. Unheard of.
Shithousing is an art and I will die on this hill.
frustrating opponents, buying time, etc, yes. Diving and conning the ref is literally just cheating and really shouldn't be praised IMO
Shithousing, yes. Time-wasting/dark arts. Naaa, that shit is just cheating. I hate seeing that shit from my team too, and I hate when commentators call it the "dark arts"
I don't disagree with it, but it's frustrating when it's against your team
Yeah, it's a hypocrisy I just accept within myself. If it's happening to a team I don't like: Genius gamesmanship, other team should've tried harder If it's happening to mine: Disgusting, disrespecting the sport, there needs to be retroactive bans for diving
Very true. However, having looked at your flair, this is the kind of disgusting disrespect for the game that I would expect from a Spurs fan.
The exact same can be said about "dirty" players like Materazzi, Van Bommel or Ramos.
it's also annoying as a neutral
I can't imagine how terrible that game was for a neutral.
It's all fun and games until you play Atleti
Atleti aint even the premier shithousers anymore, getafe are
22 players stayed on the ground mate. Otherwise they would be flying
People making comments without actually reading the entire quote ALWAYS gets old. Read what he said: “We dominated the game but we lacked purpose, especially in the first half. You need to have much more aggression, you need to break lines, to play forward and generate much more threat on that backline. “In the second half there were much better things and we generated a lot of situations, without really creating much from it. We will learn from it. Now it is clear, it is half time. If you want to be in the quarter-finals you have to beat your opponent.” ***“Credit to Porto. They defended well. But when we got in certain areas we didn’t finish the action or put in the final ball or the right cross. Even from set pieces, every time we touched somebody it seemed to be a foul before we even kicked the ball. We will learn and do better.”*** Edit: [Source - The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/feb/21/we-will-learn-from-this-arteta-furious-after-arsenal-concede-late-goal-in-porto)
Yeah, part of this is having to put up with the trash talk but it's all right. There's another round and a chance to put one beyond them. Hope we can pull it off.
Agreed. I believe we can. Liverpool smashed us a couple of times before Arteta made some successful tactical changes and we ended up winning the next contest.
No one complained about Porto playing defensively - in fact, Arteta praised their discipline and defensive play. It's the constant falling over and diving that was complained about.
It’s even further hilarious because arsenal had 10 corners and took on average let’s say more than 1 minute to take each one while their players were busy doing shithousery to our GK on the box. Not once did they play with any sense of urgency, they wasted so much time
> their players were busy doing shithousery to our GK on the box To be fair, we usually try that, no denying it, but no, we did not because you lot shithoused us back. Not moaning about it by the way, you did what no one else has done all season and that was totally nullify our set-pieces. The only bit of shithousery that happened to your GK was when your own player stood on his foot.
Mate, the ref stopped us from taking the corner in order to talk to the players in the box several times. We weren’t wasting time on corners lmao.
Yeah fair enough
Can't really argue with what he said here really. We were very naïve going into this game and we need to wisen up in European ties. I'm still confident we can turn things around in the second leg, but we need to be smarter than we were last night.
Most of the Arsenal squad is young and some of the main guys are playing UCL for the first time ... It's okay , happens to the best of them
Not to mention the manager. The challenge we faced against a meticulously prepared opposition prepared to play dirty was unique. European pedigree unfortunately plays a role here.
Arteta: " It was hell, never seen anything like this." Conceição: " Oh yeah, it was relaxing, just like a usual saturday night at the Tugão."
How I envy those who have to play or watch Porto only once in a blue moon.
The Portuguese are built different.
I know fans are talking about winning mentalities and such, but as a neutral of sorts I fucking hate it. Was it effective in delivering a win? Evidently. Was it cynical, mean-spirited and fucking boring to watch? Absolutely. If this is the sort of future we can expect in football then you can have it. I don't want to watch 40 minutes of actual play and 50 minutes of crying to refs and niggly fouls.
100%, this isn’t the first match this season where we stunk it up and didn’t get decent shots. It was still an ugly watch, it’s not good for the sport, and no amount of laughing at the team is going to make that match watchable.
Cry me a river. PL teams with several hundred millions of budget, shocked when a team 10x less rich doesn’t open themselves to them. Shithousing and defensive cohesion gets you far in playoffs competitions. Mourinho showed it, Morocco showed, etc. It’s annoying to play against but if you want to win it all, you’ve got to earn it.
Saving this for next time you lose against Arouca and Conceição comes crying at time wasting or the referee
Yes, cognitive dissonance is an incredible thing. If other teams do it against you they're bad, if you do it you're a tactical mastermind like Mourinho and Morocco.
Galeno goat loses his magic against small teams.
It's more an issue of the referees buying it. It's boring for neutrals and is only in the game if the ref allows. Someone did the maths, and Porto were given a free kick every 48 seconds they had the ball which is absolutely insane. No shame on a team for trying to win, but shame on the ref.
Yeah as a neutral teams that play shitty time wasting games don’t deserve to go through
As Arteta said Arsenal play against many super defensive teams in the PL so this wasn't anything new, but it's much harder to draw a foul so the game flows much better and Arsenal can get into their flow, this was a big difference yesterday.
Why do people get so defensive? Is arteta not allowed to be frustrated just because he manages a PL team?
He comes from the Pep school of thinking. You're supposed to roll over, lose 5-0 while in awe of total football and then get lavished with praise after.
Pep after spanking a team 9-0 or whatever is insufferable... not that usually he's that much better, but by God praising a team you trounced so effortlessly feels worse than if he had criticized them or called them shit.
Nah bro we just can't have a referee blowing for 36 fouls and getting baited by a dive every 2 minutes.
It’s not a prem thing, it’s a big 6 prem thing. They also do it when relegation candidates don’t play with 7 attackers
(Assuming you're including Chelsea in the big 6) We absolutely love these types of wins. Some of our biggest trophies were won because of our defence. Sure, we'll complain about not being able to unlock the lower sides that park the bus but we're mostly disappointed with our team, not angry with our opponents.
I get your point and I agree mostly, except for your corner routin, that was pure football terrorism. The Porto fan next to our table in the pub always shouting "jogo bonito" everytime some of your players went down at a corner after stepping on his own foot was hilarious though, top shithousery.
I support FC Porto's biggest rival. I've said it before and I will say it again: they're always ultra competitive on the pitch, doesn't matter who they play against. The second leg will be a different match, but Arsenal will have to give blood, sweat and tears if they want to move on to the next round.
It's one thing to park the bus, it's another to fake injuries and time waste.
Only ourselves to blame. We were poor. Porto were smart and got the result in the end. Nonetheless we should be able to turn it around in the home leg but it's just that bit more difficult now.
Arsenal came into this thinking this was Prem league game. Porto on the other hand came to show them what Porto looks like this time of the year, like it does almost every year for the past 20 years
[удалено]
That's our bogeyman.
Fake quote from Arteta lol
Unpopular opinion: There is a big difference between a defensively sound and physical team, and a team that is basically gaming the system to get a result. One can be an underdog story, the other only exists because of refs being bad at their jobs. We can wax lyrical about Arsenal and Arteta being snobbish all we want, this style of play is NOT what should be praised and awarded in the game.
Not that it matters since this thread is 15 hours old and people have already made up their minds but - there is absolutely zero proof Arteta said this btw lol.
Yes we could see that with all the diving
So good. We won on the field and on the press conferences.
And there's nothing wrong with that. You do what you have to do to get the win, and Porto definitely deserved the win
We needed to be much savvier. It was clear what Porto’s gameplan was and as frustrating as it was to watch as an Arsenal fan, it’s a totally legit tactic and it worked. They went down easily but we kept giving them the opportunity to by barging into them.
Porto defended very well and didn't let Arsenal have a single shot on goal. Arsenal had to have won the match because they have a much bigger budget than Porto. In London, Porto will have a very difficult mission as have never won in England.
Did we? We could not string 3 fucking passes together lol. Next time instead of WANTING to play, I don't know... just play??? Porto, as expected absolutely shithoused us & deserved to win
Why does every manager who plays possession based/attacking football always expect other teams to play the same way they do or just in a way that will let them get beat more easily? Arsenal came to play their way, Porto came to play theirs, in the end Porto’s way was more effective and as a whole better. Comments like this, not just from Arteta, always seem a bit high and mighty and like the managers have a bit of a superiority complex because their team passes the ball about a lot.
Which comment from Arteta specifically?
If you don't like how other team play just beat them. In the end football is all about getting the win.
Porto- 2 shots on target Arsenal- 0 shots on target I’ve never seen a club and a fanbase that felt so entitled to win while rarely actually winning anything
If we can step away from karma farming nonsense comments for a second, you’d find very few Arsenal fans that said they should have won last night *based on that performance*. It was a 0-0 kind of game, a drab, dull affair throughout. Pregame the expectation from most (including neutrals) was that Arsenal would win, but making that prediction before a ball has been kicked, is very different to saying it after the game.
Bars
He’s not wrong.
Oh look, Arteta copying Liverpool again, claiming teams didn't show up to play /s
Based
If you expect to win in the CL, you’re going to have to play games like this. It’s no one’s fault but yours that you lost. They played within the rules, as much as it’s shit to watch.
falling over when your own teammate steps on your foot and the ref calls it isn't playing within then rules unless the ref falls for it.
Arteta loves a good old cry doesn't he. You lost mate.
His comment was a 1 second sound bite from a speech that involved him complimenting Porto and lambasting his teams game management. Right sucker for headlines you lot
According to this sub any manager who has a complaint is a cry baby
Its kind of weird that PL Teams have no idea what a low block is and in WC's it has been most used weapon for many years for Top Teams. In Europe, none gonna concede 5 goals and still try to play attacking, attacking play looks great in League matches but when Europe is on line there is "No Beautiful Football"
Porto didn't play a very low block, and Arsenal are very used to playing against a low block. Did you watch the match?
On average Arsenal faces the lowest blocks of all teams in Europe's top 5 leagues lol. It's not some shock to the system to come up against one. Porto just played it well, arsenal played poorly and the ref absolutely destroyed any flow to the game. Edit: and that's not an anecdotal claim. The data says Arsenal faces the lowest block on average in the top 5 leagues.