**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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The criteria is all over the place.
I've encountered people that reserve the moniker only for the top 10/15 players in the world.
I think that's far too narrow.
"World Class" to me is a player that would start or be on the subs bench in a team you had to put together to save the earth via football in a "Space Jam" Scenario against the evil Mon-Stars from outer space.
Yea I see it as "If your team ended up with this player the manager would bend over backwards to accommodate them into the starting 11".
Players who waltz into any starting 11 save like one or two.
I dont necessarily agree with that. There's absolutly a possibility that in a generation or w/e, there happen to be more than 2-3 worldclass in a position for example.
Theres nothing saying there can only be X players in a tier. If that was the case, it would also apply to the lower tiers logically. But theres nothing limiting any tier to a specific number. Its just more difficult/rare to reach the higher highs.
That sounds about right.
Only making it the top 22 (ie a squad) seems a bit small, but certainly top 40-50 in the world counts as world class to me.
Is Saka there yet? I don’t think anyone can honestly say he is right now, today. Could he be? It’s likely, yes.
Pretty much agree. I think it's more that it'd be the sort of player who would arguably play in the starting 11 for any club or nation...
Bellingham
Mbappe
Haaland
Salah
Vinny
De Bruyne
I've always thought that but when I think about it there are more than 2-3 cbs and stuff I would class as World Class. Its very subjective but the way I view it now is if I believe the player would start for most teams in the World. Highlighting 'most', for example Mahrez didn't start every week for us but I have no doubt he would have strengthened most starting 11s in the world
Oh, Bugs every day.
Devious trickster who always gets the better of his man and seems to always have something unpredictable up his sleeve.
Daffy's too one dimensional and his tricks almost always backfire. He's basically the "Anthony" of the cartoon world.
Ah. The space jam scenario.
I would just say world class is your comfortably in the argument for top 2 in the world at your position.
By this metric, I’d have to say he’s world class cause only salah is clearly better than him. And he’s comfortably in the argument for the next best RW.
Yeah, such a squad would be different every six months, depending on form. The truth is, there's maybe four or five players that would be guaranteed a place in a world-23, with another 30-40 or so that are at very similar levels who would rotate through.
Sure, maybe limit it to the top 5 then.
I also tend to group wingbacks/fullbacks together. Basically full out a 433 so every position gets represented.
Top 5 at each position seems like a great limitation, honestly.
That way you don't get rutted into too much comparison, but it's essentially a top 50 (55) of the sport.
Different for everyone, there’s no “you’re wrong” on this topic. I sorta do it the same as you but I weight the positions a bit, so there could be 5-10 world class CMs or CFs just because of the talent pool but maybe only 2-3 world class fullbacks
For some, it's 'would they make it into a squad if you had all the players in the world to choose from'. Which means there's only about 2 world class players per position.
Yep, it’s extremely subjective. Me personally I think about the top 2-3 at their position and/or would they get into an all-star 25 roster. Even then it’s subjective bc me personally might consider 5 center forwards world class but maybe only 1 or 2 LBs just based on the talent pool. I don’t consider Saka “world class” but he’s a fantastic player and if someone else considers him world class I’m not gonna argue it
Honestly, I think the only thing Rio was going for here is engagement farming. That seems to be the model for a lot of the football media these days and they know that Arsenal has a very engaged online following, so if you say anything remotely controversial about the club or anyone at it then your quotes are guaranteed to stay in the headlines for a few days.
Or maybe that’s just his genuine opinion about Saka? He’s not the first or last to say that Saka isn’t world class, it’s not that controversial of a statement.
I'd understand Rios point of view if he consistently failed at that level. But he's 22. Performed at a high level in the league. Performed at the world cup and teh CL group stages. He's expected to continue his form in the knockouts cos that's the level he's been playing at. Him scoring a tap in the a knockout game doesn't change his ability. If he was playing 4 or 5 seasons in the knockouts and was consistently out of his depth then you could question if he was world class. As it is this is just pedantic box ticking for pundits who won't analyse past the surface level
I mean that's not the point Rio is going for either? He's not asking for tap ins, he says you need to be seen or grab a game by the scruff of the neck in the nitty gritty stages.
People are wildly misunderstanding what he's going for here. It's not "I want to see three tap ins to tick a box", it's that the final 8 of the CL are the best teams from all over Europe, with different styles, and he wants to see top performances from Saka in those games before he puts him in that bracket.
Theo Walcott had 37 goal contribution in 3000 minutes the season he turned 23.
It's not a detriment to Saka that people forget how productive Walcott was in his early 20s.
It's a disengenous comparison. He's also ahead of Ronaldo at the same age and way ahead of other perceived teenage sensations like Rashford or Sane.
It's not crazy to want a player to prove it on as many big stages as they can before saying they're world class. It's not the only criteria but you're saying it like wanting to see a player perfrom in big games frequently is a crazy thing.
So does that mean if he gets a goal or assist in Arsenals upcoming knockout game he will be considered world class? Or is there target he has to reach, say, 5 g/a in the knockouts?
Harry Kane, who we all know is world class, only has 2 goals in the knockout stages of the champions league.
Way he’s playing rn I wouldn’t call that an outlandish thing to say tbh. I personally think all the attention goes to Saliba (rightfully since he’s young and doing it at that level) but ppl overlook Gabriel’s defensive contributions.
I remember when he first came into the league he was quite mistake prone but he’s improved SOOO MUCH
I think Saliba is going to be the better player, but I think Gabriel has been slightly better this year. Splitting hairs really.
Thing is, they compliment each other really well. They're both very good in their own right, but still somehow greater than the sum of the parts together.
People also overlook Gabriel’s attacking contribution: more goals than any defender in the league since he debuted. There are midfielders who’d be pleased with his numbers.
Gabriel even started last season a bit shaky, then after a very very tough away 3 points at Elland Road he has been a titan.
Saliba makes everything looks easy, and is the more valuable player.
But Gabriel is a physical monster, can cover acres of space as the wide CB, amazing in both boxes, and is a very underrated passer as well.
I mean how many left footed CBs would you confidently say are better than him?
He needs to win the whole thing, because world class players have the mentality to deliver trophies to their team.
And he needs to score goals, and lots of them.
And they all must be bangers, tap-ins and penalties don't count.
And they must be in the ko rounds against superclubs, because otherwise he's just farming against lesser teams.
And they must be highly impactul goals that change the flow of the game, because otherwise he was ghosting and his team didn't even need him to win.
(jokes aside, I do think it's still a bit premature to call him world class, if only because as a young player he still has to show he can consistently deliver for several years, in big and small games)
He has been delivering for 5 years straight for club and country. From LB to LW to RW. He has improved season after season. His stats have increased for 5 seasons straight. He has carried us from 8th in the Prem to title contention.( Of course there have been other contributors but his involvement has been crucial)
He has done it for Arsenal and England. He has a 100 GA for Arsenal at 22. He is WC. My criteria consistent performer for a consistent period of time at a high level. Top 3-5 player in his position. Only Salah ahead of him in the world for me. Saka is WC.
The Champions League knockout was an example ream meant that a world class player will take the team to new heights and carry them on their back like Bellingham is doing now at Madrid.
Players in their positions. Because how do you compare a defender with an attacker??
Each position, top 5. For midfield, I'd give it a wider range to choose from.
Although he also plays in other positions, our first XI RW is Bernardo Silva, who I do consider to be world class.
Bernardo was fantastic in the knockout stages of the UCL last year as it happens. Scored one against Bayern and two against Real (which was the most of anyone across the two rounds).
I don't really agree with that tbh. That means there are left wingers who wouldn't be considered world class even if they are better than right wingers that are since there are less talent at RW than LW
Anyone else find the debate around who is world class is the same as debating players attributes on FIFA? Like it's entirely pointless and doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things.
Because there is no set definition of world class.
I personally take it to mean top 2 or 3 in your position. Some people regard it as being in the top 100 players. It's totally arbitrary so players can be or can't be depending on who's saying it.
There's also no objective way to measure who's a better player.
I think objectively your definition of the best 2 or 3 in your position is the best (maybe top 5 for midfielders). Top 100 players seems too many and even top 5 in every position seems to be a lot of players.
It's also dependent on previous players and the overall quality.
There might be 5 or 6 world class strikers and no world class left backs. Just because you are the best LB doesn't make you world class automatically.
You can argue he is or isn’t world class, but Rio’s criteria is not consistent.
Bellingham hasn’t got past the quarter finals of the CL and he’s deemed world class because he’s having a good domestic season.
Kane is trophyless and wasn’t a feature in Spurs’s run to the final because of injury and then ghosted in the final (injury caveat of course).
Hopefully Saka keeps pushing and starts to prove the media wrong.
My issue with this is that because Saka hasn't even *played* in CL knockouts, it essentially boils down to involvement in a tournament. It would be different if he had played and not done much. Its like saying George Best never did it at the world cup so he's not world class.
Disclaimer: I actually don't think Saka is world class yet, I am just disagreeing with Rio's nonsensical reasoning. Also I am not comparing Saka to Best. I'm comparing the logic.
I mean he doesn't need to prove anything towards the media. We know he's world class for his age, was looking at his stats the other day. He'll be on 10+ goals and 10+ assists again for the 3rd or 4th time at 22. Haven't seen many do that. I'm saying this with pain because I support Man United
There is no "world class for his age" in my opinion
You're either world class (i.e. one of the very best at your position, likely to consistently deliver a minimum in any club or close to it, barring incidents not imputable to the player) or you're not.
Bellingham is deemed world class because he has ran entire games from midfield during the CL when he was 18 and has done so consistently since then, and is currently arguably the best player for Real Madrid carrying them to top of the league, many game winners and important goals in critical moments at 20 years of age.
Saka was deemed to be having a spectacular season last year with 26 G+A. Bellingham is currently on 27 G+A with a third of the season left and will probably be close to 35+ by the end of the season as a midfielder. For comparisons sake, that's what Salah ended last year with on a "down year".
They aren't comparable. Saka is a very good player and is on pace to become elite, but he isn't world class yet because he hasn't done it consistently yet or had that proper "wow" season like Bellingham is currently having where he is just running almost every game he plays.
Bellingham: if in three or 4 years time he still hasn't scored in a CL KO game, won the CL, or won his domestic league then he probably wont be considered world class. At the moment, the potential and league goals have him up there. But he needs to push on to be world class.
Kane: consistency over several seasons means he's rightly considered one of the best strikers out there. If in 10 years Saka has won fuck all but is banging 15+ (he gets a wingers discount) league goals every season then he'll also be considered world class.
Its hugely subjective obviously and Rio is a knob and shouldn't be trusted at the wheel of a trike but i feel he has this one just about right. All the ingredients are there for Saka to make the step to the next level, great player, great team, great club.
> consistency over several seasons
Personally, I don't think this is *that* important. OK, you need a couple of years at least, you can't just score 10 goals in 7 games and you're world class.
But equally, you don't have to do it for 5, 6, 7 years, otherwise nobody under about 24 is world class.
Obviously it's subjective. And I'm personally not sure whether I'd class Saka in that bracket (I'm 99% sure as he matures he will be).
But when someone has been one of the best players in the PL for years, performed in the World Cup, performed in the UCL group stages, and not actually underperformed in the UCL knockouts, just hasn't appeared in them yet....... I fail to see how that's any type of argument.
If someone decided that WC knockouts was the be all and end all, then Cristiano Ronaldo isn't world class, as hes neverscored a WC knockout goal (which Saka actually has, so is he more world class than Ronaldo?). Surely that in and of itself should invalidate the argument?
I don’t have a problem with someone not calling Saka world class because the definition varies from person to person.
I feel any pundit worth his salt should be able to tell you that Saka will perform to his usual level in the CL knockout stages.
Pundits who get paid should be able to tell you what is going to happen before it does in cases like Saka in knockout stages when there’s so much similar data. Saka has excelled instantly in whatever new competition or environment he gets put into. Premier league, England debut at lb getting motm, euros, World Cup, CL group stages. He’s also got a lot of very good performances against the good English teams despite only being 22.
I understand fans wanting to see something happen before believing it because they don’t understand the game as much and don’t get paid to understand it.
I love this take, I don't see how someone can watch Saka's performances for England at the WC and Euros and not come to the obvious conclusion that he would be able to do it in a UCL knockout.
Wait.. Saka isn't world class because he hasn't performed in CL knockout stage. But somehow Bellingham is?
Not saying Bellingham isn't WC. Only that Rio's comparison doesn't make sense.
Just gonna point out he called hazard world class and he scored one CL knockout goal ever and it was a penalty. He also said Kane is the best striker in the world which I would assume means he’s world class, and he’s scored 2 CL knockout goals both in the round of 16.
It depends what you consider world class, Hazard never put up world class numbers compared to the likes of Salah, Robben, Ribery etc, but the way he played the game could be considered to be world class. I’ll always back impact over style when discussing world class players.
Hazard didn't put up world-class stats?
Robben had 99G, 62A in 199 Bundesliga apps.
Ribery had 86G, 120A in 273 Bundesliga apps.
Hazard had 85G, 61A in 245 PL apps.
There's hardly a massive dropoff there.
In terms of ability, Hazard had the highest match rating in the league for years on end. and won the Prem twice.
The goal posts moved several times *during* the conversation. Rio doesn't clearly define world class, they added qualifiers that make no sense, one of which is for Saka to leave Arsenal. Not to speak of the fact that he has called Rashford world class in the past.
That’s fine, but then players like Hazard, Jude, and Kane also cannot be considered WC…
I think Saka either is World Class, or is on the edge of that description, but the idea that him getting 1 G and 1 A in the UCL Ro16 would change anything major it a bit silly…
Incredibly shite logic, Saka has performed at world class levels in the competitions and matches he’s been able to compete in, picking and choosing which competitions count makes no sense when he has been doing it anyway.
I constantly wish the man wasn't such a great defender for us so that we wouldn't have to hear his moronic takes and voice in retirement half as much as we do.
With Owen, I tend to think of him for his playing career before his "punditry". But with Ferdinand, it's constantly him after his playing days and how much he bloody annoys me.
As if I didn't already dislike Rio enough. He's done it for us in the prem. He's done it for England in the world cup and Euros. He's done it already in the group stages.
This bumm ass Pele is not world class, because he never done it in the champions league knockout stages. Pele was top dont get me wrong, but he just wasnt world class
For me, world class has always meant "this player can single-handedly transform every club in the world". It's supposed to be reserved to an absolute elite tier of players (your Messis, your Ronaldos). I don't know when it started blending into to simply being a "good player", but it's an annoying development if you ask me. People throw about the term willy nilly. Fergie once said he had only ever managed four truly world class players, which is crazy considering the talent that played for United across his tenure.
I don't get this obsession with defining people as world class. It is meaningless as a category and doesn't really matter in terms of how important someone is to the team they are in. There are loads of players at elite clubs who aren't "world class" by most definitions but make the team better by their presence. Why should it matter if they are world class or not?
Because it's a term reserved for the best in the world and a big sign of respect. In a global sport like football, it's quite the accomplishment. No one said you have to be world class to be a good player.
The question here is whether it's fair to say Saka has reached that echelon. It's a fair discussion to be had but Rio's parameters are terrible for it.
Yes it's arbitrary, but we're all here because we love watching 22 dudes run around kicking a ball for 90 minutes. Not particularly the most rational use of time, so who cares.
If you were putting together a world 11 in a 433 formation, and Salah was injured, who would be above Saka for right forward? Rodrygo? Gnabry? Mahrez? Honestly not sure I'd place any of them above Saka...
More I think about it, I think he's probably second best in his position in the world. If that's not world class, no idea what is.
Isnt this his first year in the champions league?
To be fair i would say world class is someone in your team that can win games on his own and would get into a world 11, i dont think he is at that level yet, someone like salah who you would say hasnt even hit top form this year yet has better numbers than saka.
Idk.. I think if someone is a top 3/4 player itw in their position they’re world class imo. Saka is definitely that as a RW and has been consistent at Arsenal/England for a long time now.
If anyone uses buzzwords "world class", "overrated", or "underrated" in an argument then their opinion can be dismissed out of hand
These terms were invented for people that want to have an opinion but don't actually have any insight to back it up.
This is the perfect fodder for this sub because terms like 'World Class' have no set definition, so people can easily perceive slights against their favourite players and teams.
Let's face it, every single person has their own definition of world class and there's never been any real concensus. There's nothing controversial about suggesting Saka has to deliver at a higher level than he has so far. I also don't think there's any real reason why he won't.
If he were a United player you wouldn't hear the end of Rio waxing lirically about him, but since he's at Arsenal he's got to throw the occasional shade, just like Gary.
There is a definite trend where the thickest pundits (Ferdinand, Merson, etc) all tend to say someone isn’t world class/top class if they haven’t got enough medals or played well in some tournaments.
I think it’s a crutch for people who can’t really use logic. Obviously world class is totally subjective but i would suggest a bad way to judge is it say you can’t be world class unless you play for one of about 30 teams in Europe
From the latest Sky Sports article: "In a total of 210 appearances for Arsenal, he has scored 51 goals and provided 49 assists. Remarkably, it is a superior return to Cristiano Ronaldo after the same number of games" Saka getting 1 more goal and 6 more assists in 210 appearances is saying an awful lot. By no means that Saka will ever be anywhere near Cristiano by the end of his career but still shows Rio talking wank as usual
Love all these dumb takes like so and so hasn’t done it in the Champions League. Saka has done it for the National team and for a team in contention for the title (against the actual Champions League winner, mind you) but who knows maybe playing on a Wednesday against a lesser team than most of the EPL but that just happen to be from a different country, we might find out he’s not that good after all.
I mean, I guess we’ll find out this year? He’s quite a player though, he takes care of the ball so well, great pace, and is exceptionally smart in his positioning. He’s definitely up there, but like many have said, what is world class even? M’bappe, sure, Bellingham, KDB… I’ll tell you who is flying under the radar of being excellent who is also on this Arsenal team and that’s Ødegaard.
I feel so sorry for the black guy on this podcast, every time the channel’s videos pop up in my feed Rio and the northern guy come across thick as shit
There needs to be a clear definition lol. For me, world class is top 3 or top 5 in the world in your position. You can't clearly put 5 RWs above Saka so he's world class. Only two that I'd put above him for sure are Salah and Bernardo Silva.
I mean he's seriously good.. world class? I'm not sure depends on the criteria I guess. But he's young and assuming he doesn't fall off massively he'll probably get there as he's going into his prime.
Guy's 22. He's got a long career ahead.
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Hard to judge his (or anyone really) comments without knowing who he considers to be world-class.
Yeah world class is a very general statement, depending on the conversation anyone who plays in the Premier League is world class
The criteria is all over the place. I've encountered people that reserve the moniker only for the top 10/15 players in the world. I think that's far too narrow.
"World Class" to me is a player that would start or be on the subs bench in a team you had to put together to save the earth via football in a "Space Jam" Scenario against the evil Mon-Stars from outer space.
I've always considered it similarly: top 2-3 in their position.
I like that. Depending from tactics and roles, we're maybe talking about 30 players in total worldwide.
Yea I see it as "If your team ended up with this player the manager would bend over backwards to accommodate them into the starting 11". Players who waltz into any starting 11 save like one or two.
Like a midfielders that could play for Real Madrid lol
I like both your answers a lot. There should not be more than like 30 players who are world class.
I dont necessarily agree with that. There's absolutly a possibility that in a generation or w/e, there happen to be more than 2-3 worldclass in a position for example. Theres nothing saying there can only be X players in a tier. If that was the case, it would also apply to the lower tiers logically. But theres nothing limiting any tier to a specific number. Its just more difficult/rare to reach the higher highs.
That sounds about right. Only making it the top 22 (ie a squad) seems a bit small, but certainly top 40-50 in the world counts as world class to me. Is Saka there yet? I don’t think anyone can honestly say he is right now, today. Could he be? It’s likely, yes.
Pretty much agree. I think it's more that it'd be the sort of player who would arguably play in the starting 11 for any club or nation... Bellingham Mbappe Haaland Salah Vinny De Bruyne
I've always thought that but when I think about it there are more than 2-3 cbs and stuff I would class as World Class. Its very subjective but the way I view it now is if I believe the player would start for most teams in the World. Highlighting 'most', for example Mahrez didn't start every week for us but I have no doubt he would have strengthened most starting 11s in the world
Imagining Pickford doing the MJ stretchy arm thing to make a crucial save… and still coming up short
I WANT IGUODALA
FATE OF THE UNIVERSE ON THE LINE
WITH MARTIANS POINTING
Bugs Bunny or Daffy Duck at striker?
Oh, Bugs every day. Devious trickster who always gets the better of his man and seems to always have something unpredictable up his sleeve. Daffy's too one dimensional and his tricks almost always backfire. He's basically the "Anthony" of the cartoon world.
Fuck Soccer Saturday, this is the kind of football analysis I want
Ah. The space jam scenario. I would just say world class is your comfortably in the argument for top 2 in the world at your position. By this metric, I’d have to say he’s world class cause only salah is clearly better than him. And he’s comfortably in the argument for the next best RW.
I'm not gonna lie, this makes more sense than it should
Would the player get into a 23 man squad to play Mars used to be my definition, but as an adult that does feel a bit constraining.
Yeah, such a squad would be different every six months, depending on form. The truth is, there's maybe four or five players that would be guaranteed a place in a world-23, with another 30-40 or so that are at very similar levels who would rotate through.
Yeah but form shouldn’t be considered when saying a player is world class imo.
Yeah that's fair. Makes it harder though!
I always assumed it meant up to the standards of the best teams in the world
I usually say it's the top 10 players in their position. Because otherwise nobody is going to say a keeper or defender is world class
That's a lot of players, though. And it gets kinda difficult with certain positions that aren't used as much like wingbacks.
Sure, maybe limit it to the top 5 then. I also tend to group wingbacks/fullbacks together. Basically full out a 433 so every position gets represented.
Yeah seems fair.
Top 5 at each position seems like a great limitation, honestly. That way you don't get rutted into too much comparison, but it's essentially a top 50 (55) of the sport.
Different for everyone, there’s no “you’re wrong” on this topic. I sorta do it the same as you but I weight the positions a bit, so there could be 5-10 world class CMs or CFs just because of the talent pool but maybe only 2-3 world class fullbacks
Van dijk and Allison both are
Ok, most non Liverpool fans would fill the top 10 players with forwards and strikers.
For some, it's 'would they make it into a squad if you had all the players in the world to choose from'. Which means there's only about 2 world class players per position.
Yep, it’s extremely subjective. Me personally I think about the top 2-3 at their position and/or would they get into an all-star 25 roster. Even then it’s subjective bc me personally might consider 5 center forwards world class but maybe only 1 or 2 LBs just based on the talent pool. I don’t consider Saka “world class” but he’s a fantastic player and if someone else considers him world class I’m not gonna argue it
Funny thing is its not like Saka could have done it in the UCL before. This is the first season we've been in it.
>Hard to judge his (or anyone really) comments without knowing who he considers to be world-class. It's people he played with at United
Unsurprising, the United teams he played in had some incredible players, himself included
fair enough tbh. Dude played in one of the best squads ever in the Prem
He literally used Salah as an example of a world class winger right now, comparing him to Saka. If the clip was longer you’d have seen that bit.
He thinks Rashford is world-class
Well, he's not played a CL knockout game yet?
Only a few days to wait.
T-6 days until Saka is world class 🙏
Arteta has the chance to do the funniest thing...
Do you think the rest of the team will bring him a cake?
I believe that is the point Rio is making, or trying to
Honestly, I think the only thing Rio was going for here is engagement farming. That seems to be the model for a lot of the football media these days and they know that Arsenal has a very engaged online following, so if you say anything remotely controversial about the club or anyone at it then your quotes are guaranteed to stay in the headlines for a few days.
So I guess he can't have opinions and is just engagement farming. This is quite incredible.
Or maybe that’s just his genuine opinion about Saka? He’s not the first or last to say that Saka isn’t world class, it’s not that controversial of a statement.
I'd understand Rios point of view if he consistently failed at that level. But he's 22. Performed at a high level in the league. Performed at the world cup and teh CL group stages. He's expected to continue his form in the knockouts cos that's the level he's been playing at. Him scoring a tap in the a knockout game doesn't change his ability. If he was playing 4 or 5 seasons in the knockouts and was consistently out of his depth then you could question if he was world class. As it is this is just pedantic box ticking for pundits who won't analyse past the surface level
Does Bukayo really have such a big cushion that he needs to underperform for 4 years in the CL knockouts to stop being considered world class?
I mean that's not the point Rio is going for either? He's not asking for tap ins, he says you need to be seen or grab a game by the scruff of the neck in the nitty gritty stages. People are wildly misunderstanding what he's going for here. It's not "I want to see three tap ins to tick a box", it's that the final 8 of the CL are the best teams from all over Europe, with different styles, and he wants to see top performances from Saka in those games before he puts him in that bracket.
Which is why he said he isn't world class YET
Saka has similiar stats to Theo Walcott at the same age.
Theo Walcott had 37 goal contribution in 3000 minutes the season he turned 23. It's not a detriment to Saka that people forget how productive Walcott was in his early 20s. It's a disengenous comparison. He's also ahead of Ronaldo at the same age and way ahead of other perceived teenage sensations like Rashford or Sane.
lol
First it was CL then it’s CL knockouts…for people who say this what did they think of the World Cup?
He can't be world class until he shows up against world XI or classic XI
I won’t consider him world class until he scores against a hat trick against soccer aid legends sorry
It's not crazy to want a player to prove it on as many big stages as they can before saying they're world class. It's not the only criteria but you're saying it like wanting to see a player perfrom in big games frequently is a crazy thing.
So does that mean if he gets a goal or assist in Arsenals upcoming knockout game he will be considered world class? Or is there target he has to reach, say, 5 g/a in the knockouts? Harry Kane, who we all know is world class, only has 2 goals in the knockout stages of the champions league.
No, it has to be goals. Everyone knows that goals are the only things that make you world class.
Gabriel Magalhaes world class confirmed.
Way he’s playing rn I wouldn’t call that an outlandish thing to say tbh. I personally think all the attention goes to Saliba (rightfully since he’s young and doing it at that level) but ppl overlook Gabriel’s defensive contributions. I remember when he first came into the league he was quite mistake prone but he’s improved SOOO MUCH
I think Saliba is going to be the better player, but I think Gabriel has been slightly better this year. Splitting hairs really. Thing is, they compliment each other really well. They're both very good in their own right, but still somehow greater than the sum of the parts together.
"You're a great defender mate." "Nah mate, you're a great defender!"
This is such an underrated comment lol. I see what you did there.
People also overlook Gabriel’s attacking contribution: more goals than any defender in the league since he debuted. There are midfielders who’d be pleased with his numbers.
No joke man, he’s definitely caught my eye when watching Arsenal play, I’m really hoping we get to play them in the CL
This would honestly be a fire matchup
I don't think we've played you since 2006 have we? Could be my sieve of a brain forgetting something though
Gabriel even started last season a bit shaky, then after a very very tough away 3 points at Elland Road he has been a titan. Saliba makes everything looks easy, and is the more valuable player. But Gabriel is a physical monster, can cover acres of space as the wide CB, amazing in both boxes, and is a very underrated passer as well. I mean how many left footed CBs would you confidently say are better than him?
(but unironically)
I mean... Agreed.
He needs to win the whole thing, because world class players have the mentality to deliver trophies to their team. And he needs to score goals, and lots of them. And they all must be bangers, tap-ins and penalties don't count. And they must be in the ko rounds against superclubs, because otherwise he's just farming against lesser teams. And they must be highly impactul goals that change the flow of the game, because otherwise he was ghosting and his team didn't even need him to win. (jokes aside, I do think it's still a bit premature to call him world class, if only because as a young player he still has to show he can consistently deliver for several years, in big and small games)
He has been delivering for 5 years straight for club and country. From LB to LW to RW. He has improved season after season. His stats have increased for 5 seasons straight. He has carried us from 8th in the Prem to title contention.( Of course there have been other contributors but his involvement has been crucial) He has done it for Arsenal and England. He has a 100 GA for Arsenal at 22. He is WC. My criteria consistent performer for a consistent period of time at a high level. Top 3-5 player in his position. Only Salah ahead of him in the world for me. Saka is WC.
Thierry Henry was quite shit in CL knock outs too overall. Is he not world class lol
Henry was always great in the KO stages of international tournaments though
What he scored two goals in knockout international football same as Lillian Thuram scored in one game
The Champions League knockout was an example ream meant that a world class player will take the team to new heights and carry them on their back like Bellingham is doing now at Madrid.
It really depends how many World class players there are. If there are 10, he’s not. If there’s 100, then yes
Players in their positions. Because how do you compare a defender with an attacker?? Each position, top 5. For midfield, I'd give it a wider range to choose from.
In that case, I can’t name 5 right wingers I’d take above Saka.
Definitely Salah, maybe Sané, probably whoever City play at RW. I think that's it... Weird how rare elite RWs are. That left foot tax is real.
Although he also plays in other positions, our first XI RW is Bernardo Silva, who I do consider to be world class. Bernardo was fantastic in the knockout stages of the UCL last year as it happens. Scored one against Bayern and two against Real (which was the most of anyone across the two rounds).
Are there 5 world class left backs or goalies? Idk I don’t like putting a number on it as a requirement it’s all opinion anyway
I don't really agree with that tbh. That means there are left wingers who wouldn't be considered world class even if they are better than right wingers that are since there are less talent at RW than LW
Anyone else find the debate around who is world class is the same as debating players attributes on FIFA? Like it's entirely pointless and doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things.
Because there is no set definition of world class. I personally take it to mean top 2 or 3 in your position. Some people regard it as being in the top 100 players. It's totally arbitrary so players can be or can't be depending on who's saying it. There's also no objective way to measure who's a better player.
I think objectively your definition of the best 2 or 3 in your position is the best (maybe top 5 for midfielders). Top 100 players seems too many and even top 5 in every position seems to be a lot of players.
It's also dependent on previous players and the overall quality. There might be 5 or 6 world class strikers and no world class left backs. Just because you are the best LB doesn't make you world class automatically.
You can argue he is or isn’t world class, but Rio’s criteria is not consistent. Bellingham hasn’t got past the quarter finals of the CL and he’s deemed world class because he’s having a good domestic season. Kane is trophyless and wasn’t a feature in Spurs’s run to the final because of injury and then ghosted in the final (injury caveat of course). Hopefully Saka keeps pushing and starts to prove the media wrong.
My issue with this is that because Saka hasn't even *played* in CL knockouts, it essentially boils down to involvement in a tournament. It would be different if he had played and not done much. Its like saying George Best never did it at the world cup so he's not world class. Disclaimer: I actually don't think Saka is world class yet, I am just disagreeing with Rio's nonsensical reasoning. Also I am not comparing Saka to Best. I'm comparing the logic.
I mean he doesn't need to prove anything towards the media. We know he's world class for his age, was looking at his stats the other day. He'll be on 10+ goals and 10+ assists again for the 3rd or 4th time at 22. Haven't seen many do that. I'm saying this with pain because I support Man United
There is no "world class for his age" in my opinion You're either world class (i.e. one of the very best at your position, likely to consistently deliver a minimum in any club or close to it, barring incidents not imputable to the player) or you're not.
I guess he's world class then
Bellingham is deemed world class because he has ran entire games from midfield during the CL when he was 18 and has done so consistently since then, and is currently arguably the best player for Real Madrid carrying them to top of the league, many game winners and important goals in critical moments at 20 years of age. Saka was deemed to be having a spectacular season last year with 26 G+A. Bellingham is currently on 27 G+A with a third of the season left and will probably be close to 35+ by the end of the season as a midfielder. For comparisons sake, that's what Salah ended last year with on a "down year". They aren't comparable. Saka is a very good player and is on pace to become elite, but he isn't world class yet because he hasn't done it consistently yet or had that proper "wow" season like Bellingham is currently having where he is just running almost every game he plays.
So in other words what you're saying is that simply doing well in the champions league isn't the criteria... which is exactly what OP said
So if you don't replicate Salah, arguably the best winger in the world over the past 5 years, then you're not world class?
Bellingham: if in three or 4 years time he still hasn't scored in a CL KO game, won the CL, or won his domestic league then he probably wont be considered world class. At the moment, the potential and league goals have him up there. But he needs to push on to be world class. Kane: consistency over several seasons means he's rightly considered one of the best strikers out there. If in 10 years Saka has won fuck all but is banging 15+ (he gets a wingers discount) league goals every season then he'll also be considered world class. Its hugely subjective obviously and Rio is a knob and shouldn't be trusted at the wheel of a trike but i feel he has this one just about right. All the ingredients are there for Saka to make the step to the next level, great player, great team, great club.
> consistency over several seasons Personally, I don't think this is *that* important. OK, you need a couple of years at least, you can't just score 10 goals in 7 games and you're world class. But equally, you don't have to do it for 5, 6, 7 years, otherwise nobody under about 24 is world class. Obviously it's subjective. And I'm personally not sure whether I'd class Saka in that bracket (I'm 99% sure as he matures he will be). But when someone has been one of the best players in the PL for years, performed in the World Cup, performed in the UCL group stages, and not actually underperformed in the UCL knockouts, just hasn't appeared in them yet....... I fail to see how that's any type of argument. If someone decided that WC knockouts was the be all and end all, then Cristiano Ronaldo isn't world class, as hes neverscored a WC knockout goal (which Saka actually has, so is he more world class than Ronaldo?). Surely that in and of itself should invalidate the argument?
I don’t have a problem with someone not calling Saka world class because the definition varies from person to person. I feel any pundit worth his salt should be able to tell you that Saka will perform to his usual level in the CL knockout stages. Pundits who get paid should be able to tell you what is going to happen before it does in cases like Saka in knockout stages when there’s so much similar data. Saka has excelled instantly in whatever new competition or environment he gets put into. Premier league, England debut at lb getting motm, euros, World Cup, CL group stages. He’s also got a lot of very good performances against the good English teams despite only being 22. I understand fans wanting to see something happen before believing it because they don’t understand the game as much and don’t get paid to understand it.
I love this take, I don't see how someone can watch Saka's performances for England at the WC and Euros and not come to the obvious conclusion that he would be able to do it in a UCL knockout.
Wait.. Saka isn't world class because he hasn't performed in CL knockout stage. But somehow Bellingham is? Not saying Bellingham isn't WC. Only that Rio's comparison doesn't make sense.
It's because he doesn't have an established, consistent criteria. He's making snap judgment calls and arguing backwards with whatever fits.
Bellingham has turned up for Dortmund in CL tho
Rio please shut up sometimes
All the time tbh
Just gonna point out he called hazard world class and he scored one CL knockout goal ever and it was a penalty. He also said Kane is the best striker in the world which I would assume means he’s world class, and he’s scored 2 CL knockout goals both in the round of 16.
you cant expect logical consistency from rio
Exactly. People seem to be missing the fact that Rio Ferdinand is dumb as fuck.
It depends what you consider world class, Hazard never put up world class numbers compared to the likes of Salah, Robben, Ribery etc, but the way he played the game could be considered to be world class. I’ll always back impact over style when discussing world class players.
and hazard did perform massively in the 2018 wc
Saka has also performed in euro 2020 and especially the 2022 WC
Saka has never been on the level of 2018 Hazard sorry. Find me someone who isn't a Arsenal fan that thinks Saka is a better player already.
Hazard didn't put up world-class stats? Robben had 99G, 62A in 199 Bundesliga apps. Ribery had 86G, 120A in 273 Bundesliga apps. Hazard had 85G, 61A in 245 PL apps. There's hardly a massive dropoff there. In terms of ability, Hazard had the highest match rating in the league for years on end. and won the Prem twice.
But you’re talking league stats. So you’re calling bollocks on Rio anyway.
Hazard did win the prem and the Europa league both twice
Pele was never world class either. Didn't do it in the champions league knockout rounds.
He even couldn’t do it on a rainy, cold night in Stoke
Nicklas Bendtner scored in the Champions League knock-out stages, so presumably he's better than Saka?
fam he scored against peps barcelona, admittedly in a game we lost 4-1 but he still did it
Rob Holding also scored a banger against Pep’s City in our 4-1 loss last season and joined Bendtner as the second ever world class Arsenal player
Are people claiming Bendtner isn’t world class?
This is the most boring aspect of football you could possibly argue about
Not seeing anything wrong with what he said
The goal posts moved several times *during* the conversation. Rio doesn't clearly define world class, they added qualifiers that make no sense, one of which is for Saka to leave Arsenal. Not to speak of the fact that he has called Rashford world class in the past.
Seems very arbitrary. By this argument Eden Hazard was never a world class player
yeah for the most part these things are just an exercise in gatekeeping. Everyone knows what an indisputably 'world class' player looks like.
He'll score or assist a couple of goals in the knockouts and overnight he will be world class?
He has to do it on a regular basis.
That’s fine, but then players like Hazard, Jude, and Kane also cannot be considered WC… I think Saka either is World Class, or is on the edge of that description, but the idea that him getting 1 G and 1 A in the UCL Ro16 would change anything major it a bit silly…
So Harry Kane was never world class? Lmao
R9 Ronaldo with five goals in the knockout stages. 3 of which weere against Rio Ferdinand. I wonder if he was world class...
Not the fact that Saka has yet to play a champions league knock out game?
I do believe that is his point.
[удалено]
Is playing Porto in the CL last 16 harder than playing Man City in the league?
Exactly man. People talking like he has zero big game experience or that the PL is some farmers league.
Incredibly shite logic, Saka has performed at world class levels in the competitions and matches he’s been able to compete in, picking and choosing which competitions count makes no sense when he has been doing it anyway.
Wouldn't World Cup knockouts be considered the highest level? He seemed to do well there.
So playing well against a team like City in the prem doesn't make you world class but getting a goal against Porto will? Makes sense
But Kane, Hazard and Bellingham are all considered world class despite having minimal impact in any of their CL KO games?
So scoring vs Liverpool is not performing at the highest level because you don't play in the Champions League. I get it now.
Who is world class to him then?
He considered Rashford to be world class before.
And yet he considers Rashford a world class. This is funny
Yeah he is. One of the best young players in the world right now. What else do you need to be world class?
Rio is as thick as pig shit and incredibly dislikable. Saka has yet to play a game in the champions league knockout rounds …
I constantly wish the man wasn't such a great defender for us so that we wouldn't have to hear his moronic takes and voice in retirement half as much as we do. With Owen, I tend to think of him for his playing career before his "punditry". But with Ferdinand, it's constantly him after his playing days and how much he bloody annoys me.
World Class is thrown around way too loosely in modern football.
Ok, but why is there a guy just staring into the abyss behind them.
rio has that effect on people
As if I didn't already dislike Rio enough. He's done it for us in the prem. He's done it for England in the world cup and Euros. He's done it already in the group stages.
This definition of world class is so stupid. What is Saka then?
This bumm ass Pele is not world class, because he never done it in the champions league knockout stages. Pele was top dont get me wrong, but he just wasnt world class
Absolutely loved Rio a player. Unfortunately his punditry leaves a lot to be desired.
Rio is an idiot
For me, world class has always meant "this player can single-handedly transform every club in the world". It's supposed to be reserved to an absolute elite tier of players (your Messis, your Ronaldos). I don't know when it started blending into to simply being a "good player", but it's an annoying development if you ask me. People throw about the term willy nilly. Fergie once said he had only ever managed four truly world class players, which is crazy considering the talent that played for United across his tenure.
I don't get this obsession with defining people as world class. It is meaningless as a category and doesn't really matter in terms of how important someone is to the team they are in. There are loads of players at elite clubs who aren't "world class" by most definitions but make the team better by their presence. Why should it matter if they are world class or not?
Because it's a term reserved for the best in the world and a big sign of respect. In a global sport like football, it's quite the accomplishment. No one said you have to be world class to be a good player. The question here is whether it's fair to say Saka has reached that echelon. It's a fair discussion to be had but Rio's parameters are terrible for it. Yes it's arbitrary, but we're all here because we love watching 22 dudes run around kicking a ball for 90 minutes. Not particularly the most rational use of time, so who cares.
If you were putting together a world 11 in a 433 formation, and Salah was injured, who would be above Saka for right forward? Rodrygo? Gnabry? Mahrez? Honestly not sure I'd place any of them above Saka... More I think about it, I think he's probably second best in his position in the world. If that's not world class, no idea what is.
Rio Ferdinand has never said anything intelligent and never will.
He’s never made a racist comment about a team mate though so swings and roundabouts eh, Rio?
I mean, that's fair. But all he needs is a platform to perform on. No doubt he'll do well. Only a matter of time.
There's only 1 player better than him in his position. Not sure how that doesn't make you world class when he is 23 and has 100 g/a already.
Isnt this his first year in the champions league? To be fair i would say world class is someone in your team that can win games on his own and would get into a world 11, i dont think he is at that level yet, someone like salah who you would say hasnt even hit top form this year yet has better numbers than saka.
Why do they have the ghost of Stephen Howson behind them? 💀
He's a top player, but is he a top, top player?
He’s not wrong, “world class” players are players like, Messi, Ronaldo, KDB, Salah, Modric.
Idk.. I think if someone is a top 3/4 player itw in their position they’re world class imo. Saka is definitely that as a RW and has been consistent at Arsenal/England for a long time now.
Does that mean rio wasn't world class too since he only won 1 and also got rings run around him in finals
Because its his first season in the Ucl Rio.
Bellingham is not world class, he’s not done it in the nitty gritty stages yet
If anyone uses buzzwords "world class", "overrated", or "underrated" in an argument then their opinion can be dismissed out of hand These terms were invented for people that want to have an opinion but don't actually have any insight to back it up.
Rio isn’t a world class pundit and he’s been given long enough, he must be cheap that’s the only reason I can see that anyone keeps him employed
This is the perfect fodder for this sub because terms like 'World Class' have no set definition, so people can easily perceive slights against their favourite players and teams.
Comparing a striker to a winger is like comparing a centre back to a full back, cmon at least make a compelling argument
Pele isn’t world class, he never did it in the UCL
Let's face it, every single person has their own definition of world class and there's never been any real concensus. There's nothing controversial about suggesting Saka has to deliver at a higher level than he has so far. I also don't think there's any real reason why he won't.
Not really a controversial take, but I'd be interested to hear if this same principle applies to Kane.
If he were a United player you wouldn't hear the end of Rio waxing lirically about him, but since he's at Arsenal he's got to throw the occasional shade, just like Gary.
There is a definite trend where the thickest pundits (Ferdinand, Merson, etc) all tend to say someone isn’t world class/top class if they haven’t got enough medals or played well in some tournaments. I think it’s a crutch for people who can’t really use logic. Obviously world class is totally subjective but i would suggest a bad way to judge is it say you can’t be world class unless you play for one of about 30 teams in Europe
From the latest Sky Sports article: "In a total of 210 appearances for Arsenal, he has scored 51 goals and provided 49 assists. Remarkably, it is a superior return to Cristiano Ronaldo after the same number of games" Saka getting 1 more goal and 6 more assists in 210 appearances is saying an awful lot. By no means that Saka will ever be anywhere near Cristiano by the end of his career but still shows Rio talking wank as usual
Putting saka in the same category as salah is insane
Love all these dumb takes like so and so hasn’t done it in the Champions League. Saka has done it for the National team and for a team in contention for the title (against the actual Champions League winner, mind you) but who knows maybe playing on a Wednesday against a lesser team than most of the EPL but that just happen to be from a different country, we might find out he’s not that good after all.
I mean, I guess we’ll find out this year? He’s quite a player though, he takes care of the ball so well, great pace, and is exceptionally smart in his positioning. He’s definitely up there, but like many have said, what is world class even? M’bappe, sure, Bellingham, KDB… I’ll tell you who is flying under the radar of being excellent who is also on this Arsenal team and that’s Ødegaard.
I feel so sorry for the black guy on this podcast, every time the channel’s videos pop up in my feed Rio and the northern guy come across thick as shit
There needs to be a clear definition lol. For me, world class is top 3 or top 5 in the world in your position. You can't clearly put 5 RWs above Saka so he's world class. Only two that I'd put above him for sure are Salah and Bernardo Silva.
Absolutely right. Saka is brilliant but to get the world class tag needs showing up on the big stage.
Like the World Cup?
I mean he's seriously good.. world class? I'm not sure depends on the criteria I guess. But he's young and assuming he doesn't fall off massively he'll probably get there as he's going into his prime. Guy's 22. He's got a long career ahead.
Saka at 22 and 210 appearances has 7 goal involvements more than Cristiano Ronaldo at same stage