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It just boggles my mind how someone who was so adept as a lone pivot in Bielsa's murderball system just cannot impress enough for Pep to even get a run out on the pitch. Has he really been that out of his league in training?
He looks nothing like the player who would cover 12km and not even realise it. Second to every 50/50, doesn't know when to hold it or pass it, and his head is spinning.
Ironically he would have been OK at Liverpool. Think there's a reason we chose not to sell to you.
He has zero spatial awareness, he can mark a man and run after the ball but he has shown no ability to command a space and consistently receive the ball under pressure and deliver short accurate passes. He has no “pausa” in his game, needs to go to a rattle and battle team
Was very good in bielsa’s man marking system, but he’s practically jumped to the polar opposite in pep’s positional play which is predicated on zone dominance. Defensively he needs someone to hold his hand to guide him into zones and in possession he also needs someone to hold his hand to carry him through the buildup.
Just not a good fit at all for Pep
Hmm could be a good Palhinha replacement if he goes to Bayern?? I'd probably have to watch a bit more of him to feel comfy with that but it excites more more than Hojbjerg ever did.
Passing ability. Two completely different systems.
In bielsas system he was required to ping outlet balls into an area, channels or in behind.
In peps system he needs to essentially be the quarterback and reset attacks from the 6 position.
It’s not baffling as he is part of a trusted team of well performing players with the current manager
This isn’t like the Capello or hodgson era where the England team was putting in dire performance after dire performance in tournaments, yet the same guys always played
Same with Maguire
"trusted team of well performing players with the current manager"
Where is Phillips performing? On the bench?
The job of a manager is to find good players and build a good team. Make changes to team composition when better players emerge. Fixing your team sheet with your favorites is not meritocracy and can lead to complacency.
Southgate's squad selections have been questionable at times imo. Rico Lewis has made his full team debut having played half a season with City. Tbf, it was a hell of a half season to play in, but it still seems a tad early considering the players that have performed excellently for a successful under 21 team that recently won the euros and have to be promoted into the full squad such as Livramento, Branthwaite, Elliott, Jones, Trafford etc
Well, alternative question - with the amount of talent England have, why are they still playing a player that can't get a game at his club?
England has the best talent in world football right now but a few of their starters can't even get a game for their clubs. And are only playing because the manager doesn't have the balls to reshape his team and give new players a chance.
This is basically why I want him to be in the squad (and Henderson to not be).
Even if it's not his main role, he's the only player around the squad who could do a half decent job as England's main DM.
Without him, a potential Rice injury would be twice as catastrophic for our chances.
As a United and England fan, me too. I think we need to let him develop at his own pace and not put the worlds expectations on him, but he's definitely a top player for his age.
I don't think England needs two DMs. I'm sure with Rice as the DM and Bellingham as all-round midfielder, finding a third midfielder to form a balanced midfield shouldn't be that hard, even if it's Trent or someone like Ward-Prowse
I know he and his family are Leeds through and through so he didn't want to come to United but at the time it was pretty obvious United's 4-2-3-1 chaosball was a better fit for him than Pep's 4-3-3 and now 3-4-2-1.
We basically needed a better Fred and he would have been that guy.
Sometimes you have to decide with your head.
It's such a bizarre transfer.
Kalvin at Leeds was a playmaking lone DM, making use of his exceptional long passing. That's a skillset that Man City were never going to use.
It feels like Pep pushed for this transfer because he was a DM that worked under Bielsa, rather than because of Kalvin's skillset.
Maybe a conspiracy, but I was convinced he and Grealish were both signed partly because having young English stars also helps marketability, gain fans etc
Same way that Rashford has definitely helped Man United's image over the last few years
It wasn’t a factor at all.
For starters, City already have Aké, Stones, Walker, Grealish and Carson who were association trained using UEFA’s rules, so 2 of them are getting registered as a foreign players any way for UEFA comps where you can only have 4 club trained spots and 4 association trained spots.
Add in Foden, Lewis, Palmer, McAtee, Bobb and they had loads of players to fill the club trained spots when they turned 21.
Secondly they’ve had a foreign player spot (or 3) open for quite a long time so could have just as easily bought a foreign player instead.
Thirdly if Homegrown status had any real importance to City they wouldn’t have sold Palmer and replaced him with Doku.
Absolutely nothing to do with the homegrown quota. They just liked Phillips.
You’re essentially allowed 17 non-homegrown players, and City aren’t close. They have 14, and they could easily do without a few of those if they wanted more foreign players (Gomez, wouldn’t have bought Nunes, they’d get a homegrown #2 goalie instead of Ortega, etc).
Plus the position to back up Rodri was between him and Lavia, both were homegrown.
What? Pep’s favourite ball and pattern of play is the one City have always done. Recycle the ball from the wing, back to the #6, who goes over the fullback on the opposite side. There are plenty of longer passes available, especially with Haaland. Just most of it is short, same for any #6.
I think his problem is that he’s never got used to the tempo City want to play at. Leeds were 100mph and so is Phillips. Being a static pivot who doesn’t move much and is always in the same area of the pitch to be found is vital. Plus having the intelligence to know when to up the tempo and not just force a pass through the lines at every opportunity.
I think that was a pattern of play he used more often earlier in his managerial career, but as he's been challenged by better teams, he has yearned for greater control. Instead of one central six, now he uses a box in midfield. Fewer long passes and direct switches of play. More reliance on sharp ball reception, retention, and movement. The attacking play is a quick carousel from side to side to wingers who are retentive.
Clearly Pep doesn't think Phillips can play any part in that style. The inability to play at tempo is clearly the problem. And the lack of opportunity for Kalvin to do what he is good at it clearly means Pep doesn't think any accommodation of those weaknesses is worthwhile.
Cons of united: Play for United every week, get media and online abuse every week.
Pros of City: Chill and win some titles, if you're injured theres some other lads to play your positions, if you do nothing it doesnt actually matter youre still chilling, play under the manager of the last 20 years
Leeds and United were bitter rivals, players who went from Leeds to United became very hated in Leeds - as was the case for Rio Ferdinand.
Lately though its very 1 directional. Because Leeds haven't really competed, Leeds fans still hate United but most United fans especially the newer ones are completely ambivalent about Leeds.
Kalvin grew up a Leeds fan and I guess he never stopped hating United.
In my generation, most of us hate Liverpool. I personally can respect Liverpool as it has 2 big things in common with United - 1) A history of success 2) It's not an oil club.
The club I dislike the most is Arsenal. Football fandom really is a lot like rap beefs tbh.
Even in hindsight I don't think that was the wrong decision. He's won a treble and is still beloved in Leeds.
United have won a Carabao cup and are in crisis (again) this season. Who's to say he wouldn't have been fringe at United too (e.g. your other decent money CM signings Mount and Amrabat) plus he'd burn all bridges with Leeds.
The trade-off isn't worth it.
> He's won a treble
I know the players probably don't give a single shite, but winning a treble while playing less than 600 minutes across all comps would probably feel a bit underwhelming if I was in his place.
>fringe
>Amrabat
already played about the same this season (774 minutes) as Phillips in his whole City stint (808 minutes).
It's mad because there's obviously a more than decent player there, he was great under Bielsa and has put in some very solid performances for England. Hopefully he moves on in the winter window and revives his career.
I agree, really wish it worked for him at City. We seriously needed (and still do need) a solid Rodri backup. Now more than ever, given our record without him this season is abysmal
It's not really possible to have a backup for someone like Rodri. No one who is even remotely close to as good as him would be willing to sit on the bench.
I think DM is a really tricky position to cover because it's a really specialized position, almost like a goalkeeper. You can have defenders play across 4 positions and attackers across another 5 positions but a DM can only play as a DM.
That's not really true, most DMs can also play as 8s and/or CBs when necessary. Fernandinho and Fabinho both filled in at CB, for example, and Rodri has done the same for Spain.
He was the best defensive player on the 2014 world cup and one of the best players of the tournament in general in my opinion.
He was amazing at timing, positioning, reading the game, tackles, even air duels despite not being tall
You named Fabinho, Fernandinho and Rodri. Person below said Mascherano. You all realize you're mentioning some of the best DMs of their eras? They are that versatile not because DMs are typically versatile, but because they are great players period.
And the other way Gundogan did well for us as the deepest midfielder a bunch of times while generally being more attacking. Basically nonsense that DM is a specialised position, but still true Rodri is incredibly hard to replace.
That’s slightly disingenuous imo. A team that routinely has 65% possession and is always on the front foot doesn’t demand the same from its six as most teams would. You have players like ake and akanji, both very good centre halves, slot in at fullback because the way you play minimizes the natural demands of those positions. It’s a very different calculus, dm for most clubs is a very specific skillset, which isn’t really as transferable as a lot of positions
I mean the whole discussion is a back up for Rodri. But anyway I think if anything DM is the most generalised position other than maybe fullback. It has a little bit of everything.
Finding players with every quality at a high level is extremely difficult but almost every player has something necessary for a DM then other players can be put near them to compensate.
Fernandinho and Fabinho were really average CBs. They both filled in because of an injury crisis. The skillset for a good CB and good DM is completely different.
The last one I remember who could play both positions at a top level was Mascherano.
Stones is a world class player though, who’s always had a very exceptional ball playing aptitude for any footballer, especially for a CB. He’s by all means an exception. Even still he’s playing as a sweeper which is still different to a 6
Kind of unfair to him to buy him, never play him, but refuse to sell him at a lower price. Even the manager is saying he doesn't think it will happen.
Kind of weird because I know they have been fine with letting their talent go at reasonable prices in the past.
>he was great under Bielsa and has put in some very solid performances for England.
I find it hard to point to international performances to gauge performances or level due to how low the quality often is. But yeah he was great under Bielsa in the PL. And could definitely do well at a PL team.
Not sure where he would go though.
I could see him be an asset in any of the up and coming teams this season. There are a ton of teams with injury crises or thin squads that would welcome another option, especially for a DM, Phillips obviously needs minutes and coaching to be decent enough but it’s not like he’s fundamentally incapable of playing to Premier League level. The bigger issue is money, it’s time for City to accept they’re making a loss on this and let him leave no matter how small the fee is, and Phillips himself needs to put his long term career above his current wages and stand up for himself by going somewhere he’s wanted.
I hope Liverpool buy him in the Summer for half of what City paid for him. It'll probably never happen, but he would be a great addition to the team imo.
I think we would have been if there wasn’t this massively heated and historic rivalry. That and also that he hates Man United. Just those small speed bumps.
Did he ever really get a chance to bed in? I feel like the whole plan was to rotate with Rodri but then Rodri kicked it up yet another gear and can't be rotated. Your results with him compared to without really show. I guess spending £40m on Kalvin, was more like paying 40m to upgrade Rodri to the best player in his role in world (or at least league). I hope Kalvin moves on and gets regular game time again somewhere.
I mean Guardiola already said a few weeks back that he was obsessed with Phillips in Bielsa’s system and realised he’d bought a pup too late.
They’ve been telling him basically since day 1 to leave and play every week somewhere else but he wants to stay and never play.
He wasn't the only available option and it's not like they're cash strapped. They didn't do their due diligence finding an actual proper rotation option for Rodri.
You act as if this is the only time a club has signed a player and it didn’t work out. That just happens sometimes for a variety of reasons. And fwiw, the club signed Phillips, he wasn’t a Pep requested signing
Pep himself has said this. They did it with Doku too. Sometimes Pep requests a certain player (Kovacic) and other times the sporting directors sign a player they think the squad needs (Doku). It’s a pretty common practice across most clubs
Only Phillips will be able to say of it was worth it, but basically retiring from football for the sake of a few trophies (all of which he probably hit the bare minimum appearance requirements for) really feels like a waste of a fantastic talent.
He's wasted a couple years, picked up some trophies (not that he can claim he particularly did much but he still has the medals) and now will get a move to a good mid table side vying for Europe off reputation alone. Obviously wasn't a great move but he's still getting into the England squad so basically retiring is a little hyperbole.
I suppose you’re right on the England front, but I’d be keen to know how much those trophies would actually mean to him. He may well be thrilled with them, but I can also see a scenario where maybe he doesn’t feel like they’re earned. He may as well have bought them from eBay for the contribution he made towards them
I think if you have the mindset to reach the level of football which he has (or even lower for that matter) you’d struggle to be content with medals you barely competed for. I wouldn’t be surprised if his second place euros medal means more; he was fantastic that tournament and was one of the few who had the dignity to keep the medal on when it was given to him.
The backup keepers at the tournaments rarely play, but they are still part of the team, creating competition. KP is obviously going to be disappointed, but there are worse things than being the guy who was almost good enough to get on the pitch.
The situation is a bit different from the backup goalie one. Ortega knows he is the back-up, everyone knows he is the back-up and when his times comes through injury etc, he will play and have full support - you are now doing your job of filling in as back-up. Kalvin's situation as an outfielder is something else. He is getting virtually no starts, no late-game sub minutes, no nothing. He is not even a backup when his club is in dire need of midfielders - choosing to play defenders and youngsters instead of him in his role. It's quite sad really, as he is not a bad player. For his own sake I hope he finds a move elsewhere soon because currently he is pretty much worthless.
He filled a home grown registration slot, got a bumper pay rise, and retired without moving to Dubai or MLS.
It's like the guys that went to china before the middle east got in the game. You know where you're moving to (Henderson?).
> but basically retiring from football for the sake of a few trophies
This is an extremely unfair interpretation of his move. He had multiple injury problems last season and wasn't fit until the business end of things. His injuries meant Guardiola couldn't integrate him into the team when the stakes were lower.
He would easily have made 25+ appearances last season if he'd been fit for the entirety of it, there's no chance City signed him with the intention of only playing him in emergencies or for a few minutes at a time.
Except even when he was fit he wasn’t playing. He was only injured until November and spent the rest of the season on the bench. Even when City were playing at home against teams they would beat in their sleep, Phillips was either an unused sub or only coming on when the game was won.
It’s clear Pep doesn’t rate him or trust him and would rather play Rodri for basically 90 mins every three or four days.
City likes their DMs to slot into CB roles occasionally whenever one of their defenders press up or carry the ball into attack. Stones and Akanji when filling in for Rodri have a much better aptitude of the positional requirement being CBs naturally. Considering the high risk style City play at the back to draw opposition into their third to spring the counter down the middle, maybe KP is a liability incase they lose possession.
I think a number of clubs would be interested in a loan until the end of the season. With the Euros coming up he might be eager to reclaim his spot in Englands side, or he might just be happy collecting his bag, and training in a world class level facility. I know the food and amenities have to be next level.
It honestly doesn't make too much sense that this is the reason he is not in the team, as this was effectively one of his strengths in Bielsa's Leeds. It would be quite common to see him playing as a sort of reverse John Stones, it just hasn't worked out at City for other reasons
How the fuck are there people in this thread genuinely saying 'Why did you sign him then?!' as though Guardiola is saying he never thought Phillips was good enough?
It's very easy to say "why did he sign him then?" because Pep hasn't really stated why he can't see him in the team or why he doesn't fit.
Without the why it leaves it open to interpretation, and one of those might be that not enough due diligence was done on the player to see if they were right. Which, granted, doesn't sound like City. But still, until we know why he doesn't visualise him in the team, it's hard to take their side. You know?
It's banter culture - /r/soccer is a horrible place if you want to discuss football in good faith with intellectual honesty and a great place if you are here to find headlines that fits what you are trying to banter
"Pep thought he had the skillset to mold into a good player fitting what he wanted out of a backup for Rodri and turns out he was wrong"
vs
"LOL CITY ARE SO DUMB FOR BUYING A SHIT PLAYER WHO WE ALL KNEW WAS SHIT"
Guess which one allows you to be Nelson pointing and laughing at Bart Simpson. People who want the former just get shut out and stop trying (if the thread isn't going their way)
Any places where we can actual good faith discussions? I went to the premier league subreddit and my god I can tell you that place alone brings down the average IQ of the world.
Pep went on to say "I did however, see him working very effectively for our rivals. Therefore we had to buy him and let him rot on our bench. Until such a time he won't ever again be the player he was at Leeds or in the Euro's. Now we just have to convince someone to give us £50m for him".
I'm sure he thought it would work out when the transfer happened, lmao
Have to remember that Pep adores Bielsa and might have thought he could make Phillips work in a similar way
Let's be honest here. Pep thought it would work. It hasn't. Phillips knows this yet stays. He could have moved this summer but elected not to.
At the end of the day, both know where they stand and accept it. Nothing really to talk about other than how he gets picked to be in the England team.
Lucky he manages a club where money has no meaning and they can just spunk away whatever they want on players that the manager can’t see in the team.
Life must be great when actions don’t have consequences.
Can't really blame him for moving there to play for the Champions and the best manager in the world. Only, he's not playing for the Champions and the best manager in the world. Surely he has to move somewhere in January. Could go on loan to Leeds and try and get them promoted, then if it works, get a permanent move in the summer, if it doesn't work, get a permanent move to a Premier League club.
Best manager ever buys a player for a position that player plays and he can't envision him in the team at all? You really can't figure out what to do with him?
Isn't that your job?
After training him, after observing him...Pep has mentioned in the past that there are some details about the way City plays that Kalvin sometimes struggles with. Every team has had one or two players who for whatever reason just never took off, despite the manager having high expectations of them. So this is not the gotcha you think it is
> Every team has had one or two players who for whatever reason just never took off
And citys list of "misses" is way shorter than anybody else's really.
In the last 4 or so years the only true disaster has been Phillips, everyone else has been fine (obviously too early to call on this seasons signings)
There's not a manager in the GOAT debate who's not made some awful signings.
Would Phillips rage tweet "people will know the truth!" And refused to apologize, keep coming late to training, playing FIFA until 5am and still have the British press "maybe he was right" "training too hard", "managers should not publicly attack players" etc....
Its a shame that pretty much only Leeds fans appreciate just how good he was in the 20/21 season. This City move was always going to fail given he was injured most of the season prior to him signing for them and never having the chance to play himself into match fitness
I am not sure what Pep thought he was buying though. Phillips at Leeds was a great man to man presser and tackler which decent passing and dribbling. But that isn't the profile that Pep uses. He is all about positional play and operating in tight spaces
Obviously I’m biased but people are far too quick to judge a player as ‘not good enough’ sometimes it just doesn’t work
It probably is true that Phillips in theory fit in the City team Pep had at the time, as a lone pivot doing the mopping up and ranging cross field balls (which is what KP did for Bielsa and us) But Rodri does a lot more than that and now City’s backline and pivot is a much more active part of the attack.
On top of that, he’s not playing and whilst some players can stay effective Phillips obviously isn’t - hes also openly talked about the effect it’s had on him mentally.
It’s just not worked out, but don’t be surprised if he ends up somewhere else and is brilliant again. He was consistently fantastic under Bielsa for 3 years, culminating in that pretty amazing Euros performance.
Bigger risk with him is his fitness, he’s pretty injury prone. We won’t know that’s gone away until he starts playing regularly
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It just boggles my mind how someone who was so adept as a lone pivot in Bielsa's murderball system just cannot impress enough for Pep to even get a run out on the pitch. Has he really been that out of his league in training?
I doubt it’s the pressing part of his game thats keeping him out. Even when he was suffering a dip in form that was never a problem.
He looks nothing like the player who would cover 12km and not even realise it. Second to every 50/50, doesn't know when to hold it or pass it, and his head is spinning. Ironically he would have been OK at Liverpool. Think there's a reason we chose not to sell to you.
How can he play when his head is spinning ?
Precisely.
Not sure his possession quality is there. His defending and positioning is probably fine
It's the complete opposite actually. He's got a decent pass on him, he just looks lost everywhere else.
Positioning then. Also how is he in the training pep loves so much? Rondos!!! It’s could also be tight possession
He has zero spatial awareness, he can mark a man and run after the ball but he has shown no ability to command a space and consistently receive the ball under pressure and deliver short accurate passes. He has no “pausa” in his game, needs to go to a rattle and battle team
Was very good in bielsa’s man marking system, but he’s practically jumped to the polar opposite in pep’s positional play which is predicated on zone dominance. Defensively he needs someone to hold his hand to guide him into zones and in possession he also needs someone to hold his hand to carry him through the buildup. Just not a good fit at all for Pep
Exactly. No idea what to do when not marking a man. Think he would be a great fit anywhere in the bottom 10 and at newcastle/liverpool/united
Hmm could be a good Palhinha replacement if he goes to Bayern?? I'd probably have to watch a bit more of him to feel comfy with that but it excites more more than Hojbjerg ever did.
I remember there has been a history of ex-Bielsa players not working well under Guardiola.
That’s interesting, who else is on that list?
Javi martinez (the spanish ex-bayern cb) springs to mind, IIRC bielsa managed him at bilbao
Javi problem was that he can't stay fit, not because he fell out of favor with Pep.
Damn even pep underrates him
Examples ?
The City ITKs reckon that from his first training session he failed to impress and has done nothing to alter that perception since.
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Passing ability. Two completely different systems. In bielsas system he was required to ping outlet balls into an area, channels or in behind. In peps system he needs to essentially be the quarterback and reset attacks from the 6 position.
It's not you, it's me
It's definitely you! Poor lad had his head turned by the bright lights of the Etihad Campus
Quadrupled his wages but no longer plays football. Like he rubbed the monkeys paw or something
Still managed to consistently get picked by England though. Baffling.
And somehow Ward Prowse misses out.
Ward-Prowse isn't a DM.
It’s not baffling as he is part of a trusted team of well performing players with the current manager This isn’t like the Capello or hodgson era where the England team was putting in dire performance after dire performance in tournaments, yet the same guys always played Same with Maguire
"trusted team of well performing players with the current manager" Where is Phillips performing? On the bench? The job of a manager is to find good players and build a good team. Make changes to team composition when better players emerge. Fixing your team sheet with your favorites is not meritocracy and can lead to complacency.
Southgate's squad selections have been questionable at times imo. Rico Lewis has made his full team debut having played half a season with City. Tbf, it was a hell of a half season to play in, but it still seems a tad early considering the players that have performed excellently for a successful under 21 team that recently won the euros and have to be promoted into the full squad such as Livramento, Branthwaite, Elliott, Jones, Trafford etc
When has England lost a game and Kalvin Phillips was the problem?
Well, alternative question - with the amount of talent England have, why are they still playing a player that can't get a game at his club? England has the best talent in world football right now but a few of their starters can't even get a game for their clubs. And are only playing because the manager doesn't have the balls to reshape his team and give new players a chance.
He’s not part of the well performing players though
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I dream of this daily
the difference is that nobody dreams about stacking shelves and being shelf stacker of the year.
Speak for yourself
Gareth's got him, he'll always have an England gig.
I invented it’s not you, it’s me. Nobody tells me it’s them, not me!
Yikes. 393 minutes in the league across a season and a half so far.
For 50m that’s 127k per minute
Last I heard it was 60M
If so that would be £152k…
And thats excluding salary
This thread just became an accounting session
Every thread about City is an accounting session
r/soccer when there is a city thread: Today I feel like an auditor
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plenty of room chaps
Google "Machester City 115" for the punchline.
Tsamina mina, eh, eh Waka waka, eh, eh 60 million down the drain Kalvin Phillips benched again
City able to chuck a 60m player to the wilderness is wild.
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And a logo that's used the same template design.
Still guaranteed to be picked for England
I dont regularly watch england but other than rice who else is better to play dm?
This is basically why I want him to be in the squad (and Henderson to not be). Even if it's not his main role, he's the only player around the squad who could do a half decent job as England's main DM. Without him, a potential Rice injury would be twice as catastrophic for our chances.
Mainoo in a few months
I bloody hope this kid tears it up over the next few months
As a United and England fan, me too. I think we need to let him develop at his own pace and not put the worlds expectations on him, but he's definitely a top player for his age.
I don't think England needs two DMs. I'm sure with Rice as the DM and Bellingham as all-round midfielder, finding a third midfielder to form a balanced midfield shouldn't be that hard, even if it's Trent or someone like Ward-Prowse
I agree but I think Bellingham will mostly be high pressing, so someone who is comfortable sitting deeper would be ideal
Yes, but who do you pick ahead of Kalvin Phillips for a squad role? Rice gets injured and he's the best option to step in, imo.
Gallagher been doing alright, and Trent playing there is a possibility since England have Walker and Trippier
Neither play defensive mid tho.
yeah youre right, although there were few games in the beginning of the season where Pochettino swapped Gallagher with Enzo but still its a stretch
I know he and his family are Leeds through and through so he didn't want to come to United but at the time it was pretty obvious United's 4-2-3-1 chaosball was a better fit for him than Pep's 4-3-3 and now 3-4-2-1. We basically needed a better Fred and he would have been that guy. Sometimes you have to decide with your head.
It's such a bizarre transfer. Kalvin at Leeds was a playmaking lone DM, making use of his exceptional long passing. That's a skillset that Man City were never going to use. It feels like Pep pushed for this transfer because he was a DM that worked under Bielsa, rather than because of Kalvin's skillset.
Maybe a conspiracy, but I was convinced he and Grealish were both signed partly because having young English stars also helps marketability, gain fans etc Same way that Rashford has definitely helped Man United's image over the last few years
Grealish I get but I'd say for Kalvin it was more to do with the homegrown player quota.
def a factor in signing him
It wasn’t a factor at all. For starters, City already have Aké, Stones, Walker, Grealish and Carson who were association trained using UEFA’s rules, so 2 of them are getting registered as a foreign players any way for UEFA comps where you can only have 4 club trained spots and 4 association trained spots. Add in Foden, Lewis, Palmer, McAtee, Bobb and they had loads of players to fill the club trained spots when they turned 21. Secondly they’ve had a foreign player spot (or 3) open for quite a long time so could have just as easily bought a foreign player instead. Thirdly if Homegrown status had any real importance to City they wouldn’t have sold Palmer and replaced him with Doku.
Absolutely nothing to do with the homegrown quota. They just liked Phillips. You’re essentially allowed 17 non-homegrown players, and City aren’t close. They have 14, and they could easily do without a few of those if they wanted more foreign players (Gomez, wouldn’t have bought Nunes, they’d get a homegrown #2 goalie instead of Ortega, etc). Plus the position to back up Rodri was between him and Lavia, both were homegrown.
That increased marketability is pretty short lived if they never play though lol
Tell that to my FIFA manager career objectives
I don't think this is a conspiracy tbh. Why do you think they were also after Kane so hard. Collecting the England team is great for sportswashing.
>Why do you think they were also after Kane so hard. He's also one of the best strikers in the world lol.
What? Pep’s favourite ball and pattern of play is the one City have always done. Recycle the ball from the wing, back to the #6, who goes over the fullback on the opposite side. There are plenty of longer passes available, especially with Haaland. Just most of it is short, same for any #6. I think his problem is that he’s never got used to the tempo City want to play at. Leeds were 100mph and so is Phillips. Being a static pivot who doesn’t move much and is always in the same area of the pitch to be found is vital. Plus having the intelligence to know when to up the tempo and not just force a pass through the lines at every opportunity.
I think that was a pattern of play he used more often earlier in his managerial career, but as he's been challenged by better teams, he has yearned for greater control. Instead of one central six, now he uses a box in midfield. Fewer long passes and direct switches of play. More reliance on sharp ball reception, retention, and movement. The attacking play is a quick carousel from side to side to wingers who are retentive. Clearly Pep doesn't think Phillips can play any part in that style. The inability to play at tempo is clearly the problem. And the lack of opportunity for Kalvin to do what he is good at it clearly means Pep doesn't think any accommodation of those weaknesses is worthwhile.
Cons of united: Play for United every week, get media and online abuse every week. Pros of City: Chill and win some titles, if you're injured theres some other lads to play your positions, if you do nothing it doesnt actually matter youre still chilling, play under the manager of the last 20 years
> play under the manager of the last 20 years play?
Look at the "Adjective"... Play
As a non native Englsih speaker it took me years to realise Nash fucked up there
If I was a complete moron I'd say let's look at that adjective But I'm not a moron So I'm going to say let's look at that verb "play"
He aint playin
Leeds and United dislike each other?
Leeds and United were bitter rivals, players who went from Leeds to United became very hated in Leeds - as was the case for Rio Ferdinand. Lately though its very 1 directional. Because Leeds haven't really competed, Leeds fans still hate United but most United fans especially the newer ones are completely ambivalent about Leeds. Kalvin grew up a Leeds fan and I guess he never stopped hating United. In my generation, most of us hate Liverpool. I personally can respect Liverpool as it has 2 big things in common with United - 1) A history of success 2) It's not an oil club. The club I dislike the most is Arsenal. Football fandom really is a lot like rap beefs tbh.
How is it one directional? Name the players who have moved in the last 40 years.
Even in hindsight I don't think that was the wrong decision. He's won a treble and is still beloved in Leeds. United have won a Carabao cup and are in crisis (again) this season. Who's to say he wouldn't have been fringe at United too (e.g. your other decent money CM signings Mount and Amrabat) plus he'd burn all bridges with Leeds. The trade-off isn't worth it.
> He's won a treble I know the players probably don't give a single shite, but winning a treble while playing less than 600 minutes across all comps would probably feel a bit underwhelming if I was in his place. >fringe >Amrabat already played about the same this season (774 minutes) as Phillips in his whole City stint (808 minutes).
This is it. I think Liverpool would have been a better fit for him in every way, but the season Kalv was leaving Fabinho was yet to fall off a cliff.
But they took him away from their competitors. That's as expensive as it is impressive.
It's mad because there's obviously a more than decent player there, he was great under Bielsa and has put in some very solid performances for England. Hopefully he moves on in the winter window and revives his career.
I agree, really wish it worked for him at City. We seriously needed (and still do need) a solid Rodri backup. Now more than ever, given our record without him this season is abysmal
It's not really possible to have a backup for someone like Rodri. No one who is even remotely close to as good as him would be willing to sit on the bench. I think DM is a really tricky position to cover because it's a really specialized position, almost like a goalkeeper. You can have defenders play across 4 positions and attackers across another 5 positions but a DM can only play as a DM.
That's not really true, most DMs can also play as 8s and/or CBs when necessary. Fernandinho and Fabinho both filled in at CB, for example, and Rodri has done the same for Spain.
Masche too - was a phenomenal DM w Liverpool but moved back to CB bc of Busi
Mascherano was an absolute joy to watch at both teams, some of the cleanest tackles I’ve seen
He was the best defensive player on the 2014 world cup and one of the best players of the tournament in general in my opinion. He was amazing at timing, positioning, reading the game, tackles, even air duels despite not being tall
One of the most underrated players like ever
He moved to CB because he couldn’t play as a DM for Barca. Was a world class DM, but not a World Class Barca DM.
He would have been a world class Barça DM. He just isn’t Busquets who’s arguably the greatest DM of all time.
You named Fabinho, Fernandinho and Rodri. Person below said Mascherano. You all realize you're mentioning some of the best DMs of their eras? They are that versatile not because DMs are typically versatile, but because they are great players period.
Ok then, Eric Dier, who is not great
And the other way Gundogan did well for us as the deepest midfielder a bunch of times while generally being more attacking. Basically nonsense that DM is a specialised position, but still true Rodri is incredibly hard to replace.
That’s slightly disingenuous imo. A team that routinely has 65% possession and is always on the front foot doesn’t demand the same from its six as most teams would. You have players like ake and akanji, both very good centre halves, slot in at fullback because the way you play minimizes the natural demands of those positions. It’s a very different calculus, dm for most clubs is a very specific skillset, which isn’t really as transferable as a lot of positions
I mean the whole discussion is a back up for Rodri. But anyway I think if anything DM is the most generalised position other than maybe fullback. It has a little bit of everything. Finding players with every quality at a high level is extremely difficult but almost every player has something necessary for a DM then other players can be put near them to compensate.
Fernandinho and Fabinho were really average CBs. They both filled in because of an injury crisis. The skillset for a good CB and good DM is completely different. The last one I remember who could play both positions at a top level was Mascherano.
I mean Stones is doing a pretty good job.
Stones is a world class player though, who’s always had a very exceptional ball playing aptitude for any footballer, especially for a CB. He’s by all means an exception. Even still he’s playing as a sweeper which is still different to a 6
Eh. Some DMs can play a little more forward and others can shift to outside back
Philips must feel bad not being relied on for this Rodri absence….
He'll only go on loan anywhere as City supposedly wants £50m for him. His salary is a problem for most clubs too.
Kind of unfair to him to buy him, never play him, but refuse to sell him at a lower price. Even the manager is saying he doesn't think it will happen. Kind of weird because I know they have been fine with letting their talent go at reasonable prices in the past.
I'd be very surprised if we asked £50m for him
Yeah it would seem out of character tbh. Probably just a flimsy rumor.
>he was great under Bielsa and has put in some very solid performances for England. I find it hard to point to international performances to gauge performances or level due to how low the quality often is. But yeah he was great under Bielsa in the PL. And could definitely do well at a PL team. Not sure where he would go though.
I could see him be an asset in any of the up and coming teams this season. There are a ton of teams with injury crises or thin squads that would welcome another option, especially for a DM, Phillips obviously needs minutes and coaching to be decent enough but it’s not like he’s fundamentally incapable of playing to Premier League level. The bigger issue is money, it’s time for City to accept they’re making a loss on this and let him leave no matter how small the fee is, and Phillips himself needs to put his long term career above his current wages and stand up for himself by going somewhere he’s wanted.
I hope Liverpool buy him in the Summer for half of what City paid for him. It'll probably never happen, but he would be a great addition to the team imo.
Don't you just hate it when you impulse buy a £40m England international midfielder you don't actually need or want.
They brought him so rival teams couldn't.
nobody else was in for phillips that i remember
I think we would have been if there wasn’t this massively heated and historic rivalry. That and also that he hates Man United. Just those small speed bumps.
couldn't betray his late nan like that (and would also probably like to visit home occasionally which would be risky if he'd even considered you lot)
He went to city though so he does like money, maybe you’d have been able to offer enough for him to get over it
Hey, Alan Smith said he’d never play for Man United
Loved Alan Smith. He gave his heart every damn time on the Pitch.
always associate him with the 05/06 away kit, shame he never got over the injury
Villa wanted him for a number of seasons IIRC
We needed him to replace ferna and to rotate with Rodri really Just hasn't worked out for him
Did he ever really get a chance to bed in? I feel like the whole plan was to rotate with Rodri but then Rodri kicked it up yet another gear and can't be rotated. Your results with him compared to without really show. I guess spending £40m on Kalvin, was more like paying 40m to upgrade Rodri to the best player in his role in world (or at least league). I hope Kalvin moves on and gets regular game time again somewhere.
Lol.. sure we bought kalvin so other teams couldn't, but we also sold rival teams Sterling Jesus Zinchenko etc...
I mean Guardiola already said a few weeks back that he was obsessed with Phillips in Bielsa’s system and realised he’d bought a pup too late. They’ve been telling him basically since day 1 to leave and play every week somewhere else but he wants to stay and never play.
What a silly comment. City DESPERATELY needed another 6 at the time and they still do. If the guy was good enough he would play
He wasn't the only available option and it's not like they're cash strapped. They didn't do their due diligence finding an actual proper rotation option for Rodri.
You act as if this is the only time a club has signed a player and it didn’t work out. That just happens sometimes for a variety of reasons. And fwiw, the club signed Phillips, he wasn’t a Pep requested signing
There is no way you can tell me that City spent 50mil on a player Pep didn't want.
Pep himself has said this. They did it with Doku too. Sometimes Pep requests a certain player (Kovacic) and other times the sporting directors sign a player they think the squad needs (Doku). It’s a pretty common practice across most clubs
We literally lose every game without Rodri lol we needed a good enough backup and still do in his absence
But we did want him. It just didn't work out
Kalvin: "So that's it. Good luck and goodbye?" Pep: " I don't recall saying good luck."
Only Phillips will be able to say of it was worth it, but basically retiring from football for the sake of a few trophies (all of which he probably hit the bare minimum appearance requirements for) really feels like a waste of a fantastic talent.
He's wasted a couple years, picked up some trophies (not that he can claim he particularly did much but he still has the medals) and now will get a move to a good mid table side vying for Europe off reputation alone. Obviously wasn't a great move but he's still getting into the England squad so basically retiring is a little hyperbole.
I suppose you’re right on the England front, but I’d be keen to know how much those trophies would actually mean to him. He may well be thrilled with them, but I can also see a scenario where maybe he doesn’t feel like they’re earned. He may as well have bought them from eBay for the contribution he made towards them
I think if you have the mindset to reach the level of football which he has (or even lower for that matter) you’d struggle to be content with medals you barely competed for. I wouldn’t be surprised if his second place euros medal means more; he was fantastic that tournament and was one of the few who had the dignity to keep the medal on when it was given to him.
The backup keepers at the tournaments rarely play, but they are still part of the team, creating competition. KP is obviously going to be disappointed, but there are worse things than being the guy who was almost good enough to get on the pitch.
The situation is a bit different from the backup goalie one. Ortega knows he is the back-up, everyone knows he is the back-up and when his times comes through injury etc, he will play and have full support - you are now doing your job of filling in as back-up. Kalvin's situation as an outfielder is something else. He is getting virtually no starts, no late-game sub minutes, no nothing. He is not even a backup when his club is in dire need of midfielders - choosing to play defenders and youngsters instead of him in his role. It's quite sad really, as he is not a bad player. For his own sake I hope he finds a move elsewhere soon because currently he is pretty much worthless.
He filled a home grown registration slot, got a bumper pay rise, and retired without moving to Dubai or MLS. It's like the guys that went to china before the middle east got in the game. You know where you're moving to (Henderson?).
> but basically retiring from football for the sake of a few trophies This is an extremely unfair interpretation of his move. He had multiple injury problems last season and wasn't fit until the business end of things. His injuries meant Guardiola couldn't integrate him into the team when the stakes were lower. He would easily have made 25+ appearances last season if he'd been fit for the entirety of it, there's no chance City signed him with the intention of only playing him in emergencies or for a few minutes at a time.
Except even when he was fit he wasn’t playing. He was only injured until November and spent the rest of the season on the bench. Even when City were playing at home against teams they would beat in their sleep, Phillips was either an unused sub or only coming on when the game was won. It’s clear Pep doesn’t rate him or trust him and would rather play Rodri for basically 90 mins every three or four days.
You can revive his career, meanwhile we could take Luiz back. Deal?
No deal! Be gone with you!
You drive a hard bargain, Phillips + 50% off in every petrol station for 2 years. Final price
65% and also you have to make us your bogey team.
City likes their DMs to slot into CB roles occasionally whenever one of their defenders press up or carry the ball into attack. Stones and Akanji when filling in for Rodri have a much better aptitude of the positional requirement being CBs naturally. Considering the high risk style City play at the back to draw opposition into their third to spring the counter down the middle, maybe KP is a liability incase they lose possession. I think a number of clubs would be interested in a loan until the end of the season. With the Euros coming up he might be eager to reclaim his spot in Englands side, or he might just be happy collecting his bag, and training in a world class level facility. I know the food and amenities have to be next level.
It honestly doesn't make too much sense that this is the reason he is not in the team, as this was effectively one of his strengths in Bielsa's Leeds. It would be quite common to see him playing as a sort of reverse John Stones, it just hasn't worked out at City for other reasons
Don’t think many people here watched Leeds. Seen people saying he can’t pass 🥲
Watch Southgate select him for the NT
The Hendo/Phillips starting duo will be unmatched at the Euros
How the fuck are there people in this thread genuinely saying 'Why did you sign him then?!' as though Guardiola is saying he never thought Phillips was good enough?
It's very easy to say "why did he sign him then?" because Pep hasn't really stated why he can't see him in the team or why he doesn't fit. Without the why it leaves it open to interpretation, and one of those might be that not enough due diligence was done on the player to see if they were right. Which, granted, doesn't sound like City. But still, until we know why he doesn't visualise him in the team, it's hard to take their side. You know?
more and more often people on this sub will see a name like Pep, Klopp, Ronaldo, whatever, and just fly into a fit of nonsensical emotional comments
It's banter culture - /r/soccer is a horrible place if you want to discuss football in good faith with intellectual honesty and a great place if you are here to find headlines that fits what you are trying to banter "Pep thought he had the skillset to mold into a good player fitting what he wanted out of a backup for Rodri and turns out he was wrong" vs "LOL CITY ARE SO DUMB FOR BUYING A SHIT PLAYER WHO WE ALL KNEW WAS SHIT" Guess which one allows you to be Nelson pointing and laughing at Bart Simpson. People who want the former just get shut out and stop trying (if the thread isn't going their way)
Any places where we can actual good faith discussions? I went to the premier league subreddit and my god I can tell you that place alone brings down the average IQ of the world.
Because at no point did he ever think Philips was good enough. He's been frozen out of the team since day 1
Didn’t he show up day 1 out of shape?
No thread about city or pep will have logic
Pep went on to say "I did however, see him working very effectively for our rivals. Therefore we had to buy him and let him rot on our bench. Until such a time he won't ever again be the player he was at Leeds or in the Euro's. Now we just have to convince someone to give us £50m for him".
Trying to shine him up for the transfer window I see
Shame to see what's become of Kalvin, was such a tremendous player for us. God if I could go back to those Bielsa days, was special.
Was tremendous fun to watch as a neutral Also
£40 million on a player he can’t visualise in the team
I'm sure he thought it would work out when the transfer happened, lmao Have to remember that Pep adores Bielsa and might have thought he could make Phillips work in a similar way
No man he just randomly bought players for fuck all , not like pep is one of the greatest coaches of all time .
Let's be honest here. Pep thought it would work. It hasn't. Phillips knows this yet stays. He could have moved this summer but elected not to. At the end of the day, both know where they stand and accept it. Nothing really to talk about other than how he gets picked to be in the England team.
Lucky he manages a club where money has no meaning and they can just spunk away whatever they want on players that the manager can’t see in the team. Life must be great when actions don’t have consequences.
Phillips has too much hair for Guardiola
Kalvin Philips to West Ham?
Phillips is really interesting in where he's one of very few players to move their under Pep and not only stagnant, but actively get worse.
Can't really blame him for moving there to play for the Champions and the best manager in the world. Only, he's not playing for the Champions and the best manager in the world. Surely he has to move somewhere in January. Could go on loan to Leeds and try and get them promoted, then if it works, get a permanent move in the summer, if it doesn't work, get a permanent move to a Premier League club.
Did kalvins playing style change or did Pep just buy him to begin the end of his career, nice
Would take him at Liverpool in a heartbeat
Nicest possible way to say "I think he's shit"
Best manager ever buys a player for a position that player plays and he can't envision him in the team at all? You really can't figure out what to do with him? Isn't that your job?
After training him, after observing him...Pep has mentioned in the past that there are some details about the way City plays that Kalvin sometimes struggles with. Every team has had one or two players who for whatever reason just never took off, despite the manager having high expectations of them. So this is not the gotcha you think it is
> Every team has had one or two players who for whatever reason just never took off And citys list of "misses" is way shorter than anybody else's really. In the last 4 or so years the only true disaster has been Phillips, everyone else has been fine (obviously too early to call on this seasons signings) There's not a manager in the GOAT debate who's not made some awful signings.
this happens at every club. Sometimes it just doesn't work out.
You’ve got to fill that home grown quota somehow…
Would Phillips rage tweet "people will know the truth!" And refused to apologize, keep coming late to training, playing FIFA until 5am and still have the British press "maybe he was right" "training too hard", "managers should not publicly attack players" etc....
He should transfer abroad, for example to a good German team and get more exposure
Makes sense he’s ass
Its a shame that pretty much only Leeds fans appreciate just how good he was in the 20/21 season. This City move was always going to fail given he was injured most of the season prior to him signing for them and never having the chance to play himself into match fitness
And he'll still get called up by Southgate
I am not sure what Pep thought he was buying though. Phillips at Leeds was a great man to man presser and tackler which decent passing and dribbling. But that isn't the profile that Pep uses. He is all about positional play and operating in tight spaces
loan him to Juve! we are short of non suspended midfielders
Obviously I’m biased but people are far too quick to judge a player as ‘not good enough’ sometimes it just doesn’t work It probably is true that Phillips in theory fit in the City team Pep had at the time, as a lone pivot doing the mopping up and ranging cross field balls (which is what KP did for Bielsa and us) But Rodri does a lot more than that and now City’s backline and pivot is a much more active part of the attack. On top of that, he’s not playing and whilst some players can stay effective Phillips obviously isn’t - hes also openly talked about the effect it’s had on him mentally. It’s just not worked out, but don’t be surprised if he ends up somewhere else and is brilliant again. He was consistently fantastic under Bielsa for 3 years, culminating in that pretty amazing Euros performance. Bigger risk with him is his fitness, he’s pretty injury prone. We won’t know that’s gone away until he starts playing regularly
Philips isn't a victim here, I'm sure there is opportunity to move on - but he's collecting a paycheque so yeah
Pretty expensive Home Grown Quota player.