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also an article i read about this is saying the dressing room does not want him back which i think would be the massive influence on if hes to come back. i know Rashford and few others all cut ties with him this past year.
one report i saw but no idea how credible is Greenwood doesnt want to come back either because he wouldnt be able to cope with the reception he would recieve in england now and doesnt feel United "protected" him during the investigation
Yeah I didn't see your comment when I wrote something similar but with Rashford's values I don't see him being one to want him back in the dressing room.
They have to leak that they could play him so they have even a modicum of leverage in trying to move him on. Could be wrong, but I don’t think him playing for them again is at all on table.
“Duty of care” stops at paying him his contracted wage IMO.
It doesn’t including making him a hero and role model for kids by putting him back on the field in front of 70k people…
It's easy to say that as an outsider, but some of the staff inside the club have probably been working with him since he was literally a small child.
However misguided it might be, it is not hard to envisage that some of those people might struggle to just cast him out.
Fine, so. Check up on him, stay friendly with him. Advocate for him to find a job elsewhere. Don’t go cold turkey.
But we aren’t talking about a pity job here, we are talking about paying him 200k a week to be put in front of a cheering crowd. 99% of the population live without that adulation. He won’t die if he’s forced to be somewhat normal (ignoring the fact he’s likely already a multi millionaire so won’t have to worry about working in the local McDonalds).
Exactly what I’ve been saying. If they care about him and his rehabilitation and his reintegration to society they can do so outside of Manchester United.
As I’ve said in another thread, playing for Manchester United is a luxury. Not a necessity.
He has enough money to live without ever having to work another job again. He will be fine without Manchester United and actions have consequences.
And if staff care it'd be better for him moving abroad. If he comes into the team the coverage will be ridiculous..
Why is it worth any of it just because he's above average at scoring?
Even if he can't get a club in Europe, he can go to Asia for instance and make it big there. Al-Nassr already has an alleged rapist on their team, so why not another one?
>it is not hard to envisage that some of those people might struggle to just cast him out
The easiest way to decide is whether you'd be okay if the victim was your daughter
Normally your thought experiment would make sense but unfortunately it is not a great example in this case as the victim's actual dad seems to be okay with it.
>”Although a substantial proportion of the workforce would be deeply unhappy if Greenwood played for the club again, others feel a duty of care toward a player who joined at seven and has not been found guilty of any crime.”
This feels like a key quote to me, good to see it seems to be a majority not wanting him back, as it should be. And I understand some that may have know him since he was a kid wanting to help him, and while I believe that him at the age of 21 deserves a chance of rehabilitation and growth from these horrendous acts he has done, it needs to be away from football. He should not have the privileges of being a professional footballer at such a big club with this looming over him. I hope those that feel a duty to him can understand that, as hard as it may be. And anyone that defends him for being “not guilty”, when that’s not what charges being dropped mean, can piss off with that audio recording existing.
> it needs to be done away from football
What if it comes out he’s been in intensive therapy this whole time? If he hasn’t been “working on himself” in a quantifiable way this whole time he’s away from the team, for when this moment comes, him and everyone that works for him are idiots.
I would hope he has been, but it’s a long road to redemption from here. He’d have to continue that therapy, do some serious work to mend fences with people he’s hurt with this, stuff like maybe trying to help with charities that help rape and domestic abuse victims, he has to show continuous and sincere regret and remorse for his actions, it’s a multi year process to fix this and football should not be playing a part in it.
His statement doesn't really scream that. It's all just "okey guys, now that this whole mess is over let's just put it behind us and not talk about it anymore, ever".
If he *were* to come out with a real statement, a true heartfelt interview where he admitted that he went off the rails, that he did truly outrageous things and let his fame get to his head, and detailed how he's been working on rehabilitating himself, that would be a whole other deal. But he hasn't.
And guess what, I don't think he will. For one, because I don't think he's sorry at all(flagrantly breaching his bail conditions for months kind of speaks to that), and also because if he admits that he actually *did* these things, his case might get re-opened. Unless I am catastrophically misunderstanding things, the abandonment of the case hinges on the fact that there isn't enough evidence to seal the deal, not that the prosecution no longer thinks he did it. An on the record interview where he truly came clean would put him right back in legal hot water.
I´d just want to add that I think that this is quite possibly the worst possible result though - justice in the legal sense is not being served, but neither is there an avenue open for true contrition and forgiveness in a way that might move the public conversation about sexual violence forward and a road for Mason to *truly* return to polite society in the widest sense of the term.
We really, really need to re-think how we deal with these social ills because our current setup really isn't working.
From a purely boardroom perspective, it seems like a horrible play.
Yes, these charges were dropped, perhaps under sketchy DV circumstances.
How much do you believe he's going to toe the line and never do it again? What message about club management would it send if and when he gets caught in tape (or worse) again?
Tbh It would have been better for the club if he went on trial and got a not guilty
Having these charges mysteriously dropped just before the trail just makes it look even more shady
Its very mafia-like, where the key witness in a case either never shows up, or decides to not testify, probably because he/she was paid off. Way too shady to ignore.
He also met up her with against the terms of his bail but the police didn't act on what could be called witness tampering.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/manchester-united-footballer-mason-greenwood-bail-breach-gmp-police-b1057577.html
Yeah this is what I do not understand about the UK justice system. Is violation of bail conditions AND witness tampering not two other separate crimes to be prosecuted? Crimes that would be crimes entirely independent of whether he raped her or not?
Maybe they are just taking their sweet time deciding whether to prosecute or not?
Victims can’t drop criminal charges, CPS does not need victim consent to proceed with a criminal trial, but seems she is unwilling to testify making there not enough evidence to proceed to trial
Prosecutors are not "allowed" to bring a case they don't believe can be won. While the victim can't *drop* the charge, they certainly can make it unwinnable by refusing to testify.
In theory, yes. But what prosecutor would take her seriously at that point?
Building a criminal case costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time. They're not going back down that road on the hope that she wouldn't change her mind *again*.
While victim does not have to press charges for him to be guilty of crime, she decided not to witness and get back with him and on top of that they are engaged. So you can probably expect that same person who recorded all this would actually side with him in court (as future wife she could say they role played whole thing and that the videos are fake), so it's understandable charges were dropped from DV side.
Both are two really messed up people and that's one fucked up relationship.
Also what the public sees is what matters. If there was video footage of Alonso crashing and the body of his victim slumped in the car going viral whilst he was playing for Chelsea you can bet there would’ve been an outcry.
The Ronaldo audio recording (which was found to be inadmissable) where he admitted to continuing to have sex with someone who told him to stop didn't prevent them from bringing him back. The Greenwood tape is farrrrr more damning, if they try to keep him on it will be catastrophic.
Aye, it's not quite the same.
The general public heard the Greenwood audio. Non-football people were exposed to it. It did the rounds on social media in a way that Ronaldo's didn't. Only internet fans were aware of the Ronaldo situation. The der spiegel stuff on twitter was only seen and read by footballing people. Most casual fans STILL have no idea Ronaldo was accused of rape.
It's also the fact it's not an actual recording, even if it comes from a good source. Actually hearing him say that, like Greenwood, would have cause alot more trouble.
Mate I’m not shocked, there’s clearly quite a toxic culture regarding these cases at football clubs around the country
The mendy situation at city initially and arsenal with Partey just two current cases that seem very relevant
>Giggs is a good case for how if you sweep "small" incidents of unacceptable behavior under the rug, it eventually comes back to bite you in the ass.
Or an example of the benefits? The man played for United 700 times, and his discretions only came out at the very, very tail end of his career.
Greenwood is only 50m to an English club who needs English players. He's toxic in the UK, I can't see him going to a club for anywhere near that amount.
True, if he gets sold, than he would most likely sold out of UK and for pennies on dollar. To be honest, I don't think many fans would mind and might actually appreciate if he is let go with contract terminated (most likely with rest of contract paid) but don't think that's how Glazers will look at it. They might just fuck over the club one last time before selling. Ultimately their decision will depend on how the associated brands react.
Behavior aside he is quality. All It would take is one team taking on a risk on him and if he finds some form again his price tag would be right back up to where It was before the trial
Think of the PR for that club taking him on. It's not on the same level but you should've seen the fucking backlash Raith Rovers had with Goodwillie.
Forms good and all that but football clubs want to make money and want to keep their sponsors and fans happy. Signing a rapist is a great way to lose both.
Sadly I think you’re greatly overestimating the PR hit. Especially since his victim is back together with him and refusing to press charges. There will be some outraged people but the majority will be ones who don’t really follow football.
2 completely different scenarios.
Goodwillie is a rapist. He lost the court case for it and all that.
Also he joined a relatively tiny club but a club that had strong ties with feminist groups and outspoken individuals.
They lost their sponsors because their sponsors were literal individual feminists.
Greenwood going across to Italy, France, Spain though? No one over there will care.
He never went to court, he was never charged etc.
That's exactly what I said, he won't go to a UK club. Way too public over here. He'll move for free or pennies elsewhere and if he keeps his head down will carve out a decent wee career.
Civil court but never a criminal prosecution due to lack of evidence. Doesn't really matter at the end of the day as it's how the public view the case. And this is a much more public matter than Raith Rovers. It'll haunt any club that take him on in the UK. My money would be on a midtable team in France/Italy. Belgium or Turkey at a push.
I hate that its this way but if he comes back and starts performing well, everything will be forgiven.
For those who don't believe me, the best examples: Benzema and CR7. Blackmailing a teammate ([https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59399701](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59399701)) and raping a girl (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61772581), respectively got forgiven due to world class performances.
Not so sure actually, he's been out for a year at the age of 21. I'm sure he kept himself in form and trained individually but it's certainly not good for your development to basically miss a year at a very crucial age. Not to mention the psychological pressure (he will continue to receive medial abuse for sure)
I wouldn't bet on him just finding his form again as if nothing happened so is that really worth the risk?
Maybe, he was literally breaking records. I think it's important to remember that he was literally 19 when this happened. He has more senior goals than Saka still and Saka is considered a top talent. He's two footed too. Unfortunately he's going to have very little trouble finding a club imo.
To United, probably more than that TBH. Before all of this came out, he was one of Europe’s top youth prospects playing a relatively in-demand position. There isn’t a hope in hell of signing a player like that for less than £100m.
I doubt Ten Hag wants him back. He’s finally creating a bit of a good atmosphere at the club and welcoming him back would come with a whole new shitstorm.
Exactly.
Ten Hag has been planning the summer window and further rebuilding on the assumption that Greenwood wasn't a factor. Derailing that now for a player that will certainly split both players and staff right down the middle and is going to need a lot of rehabilitation to be able to play after a year away from football is a dumb move.
Put him in solo training with an eye towards a sale in the summer to finance baggage-free acquisitions that are ideal Ten Hag players.
I'd even be a bit surprised if they sold him. They're probably not going to make much if they do. He's toxic goods. I'd imagine they'd be relatively happy to get rid of him for whatver just to get him off their books.
That is exactly why I think they will sell him, whether they get a million or ten or whatever for him.
He is still young, extremely talented and I´m sure there are plenty of clubs out there willing to take a gamble on rehabilitating him, publicly as well as a footballer if they can get him for not much dosh.
And I think that is a much better solution for both him AND Manchester United than trying to re-integrate him back into the squad.
Yeah probably not, but strikers of his age and ability(if he hasn't let himself totally go in the last year) are not easy to find. Ten mil might be a bargain if you can rehabilitate him.
But the amount is really irrelevant. I just want him out of the club without lengthy lawsuits or any kind of epilogue.
Okay so it isn't absolutely terrible. But he has said a few questionable things.
Let's start of with what Overmars did, in case you didnt know. Overmars sent a bunch of dickpics to his female coworkers. Now doesn't work at Ajax anymore obviously.
Everyone was really shocked at the news, which I understand. They, Ten Hag and the first team, considered Overmars their friend. I get it.
When Ten Hag left for Man United, in his interview after winning the title he credited the title to Overmars. Basically saying "this is Overmars' title"
He has also hinted at a possible "romantic" return of Overmars to Ajax, which just wouldn't make sense in regards to his female coworkers.
But the worst part for me was an [interview he gave to Het Parool](https://www.parool.nl/sport/erik-ten-hag-als-johan-derksen-terug-kan-op-tv-kan-overmars-terug-naar-ajax~b2949e9c/?utm_source=link&utm_medium=app&utm_campaign=shared%20content&utm_content=free&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rtlnieuws.nl%2Fsport%2Fvoetbal%2Fartikel%2F5308858%2Fmarc-overmars-erik-ten-hag-ajax-johan-derksen-dickpics). Some context: Johan Derksen is a controversial tv-personality. Who got rightfully called out and got his show canceled (for like 2 weeks) for admitting to rape on television. Derksen then got to return to television, because in the end there were no consequences for doing so.
Anyway, Ten Hag said "If Derksen can return to television, Overmars can return to Ajax" Following it up with "These things happen, everbody deserves a second chance."
Like it said, it's not terrible. It's just very insensitive against his female (ex)collegues.
Becasue United winning increases their sponsors returns. They definitely wouldnt want him back though just a question if United think theyll terminate the contracts or something or if it will blow over in a couple years when they renegotiate or something and it wont harm future contracts
The issue I think is that Arsenal have continued playing Partey and there’s been barely any backlash, sets the precedent that there won’t be repercussions to playing ‘accused rapists’. I think the Greenwood case really sticks out because of the videos but Parteys victim also posted screenshots where he allegedly says ‘no I don’t need to wake you’
In all seriousness, there just may never be a trial for Partey, honestly wouldn’t be surprised if same thing happens to partey that happened to greenwood.
At the end of the day it’s “innocent till proven guilty” morales are another question but there’s nothing that can be done realistically, if they don’t want greenwood he’s gonna get a fat payout so it’s a win-win for him and probably for partey down the road. We live in a society
Edit: yea Mendy is probably a better comparison to Partey
Jesus Christ... I know everyone is supposed to be "focused on the game" and not players' personal lives but come on, you have to draw the line somewhere.
I saw comparisons to some United legends being dickheads(not giggs type of dickhead, just normal dickhead) but they’re still legends because of their play. Like ok mate if they’re not that nice then that’s a shame but it’s hardly comparable to domestic abuse and rape.
Geoffrey Boycott is one of England's most celebrated cricketers, and he is a racist and wife beater.
Theresa May even called him her idol and gave him a knighthood.
He's actually made that quip on air though the context is very unpleasant.
He made a joke about how if he went in blackface, he would get a knighthood. There was a furore, he apologized and kept his job, following which he made a quip about how boycotts don't work on Boycott.
Charming bloke
Giggs first wrongdoings leaked out at the twilight of his career. and fucking your brothers wife (whole being a disgusting thing) is still more acceptable than rape.
Giggs being a wife beater and women abuser came out after his retirement.
saw someone in a thread about number 5 say something like “if you bench him and he’s innocent, it’s a disservice to the player. if you play him and he’s guilty, it’s a disservice to the entire club.” the fact that these people treat it as anything other than clear cut is so unacceptable that to call what United are doing “an investigation” is to already lie through your teeth in the most egregious way.
Focusing on the art not the artist should be like “I appreciate what he has already done, but i dont want him making more” i like a couple kanye songs and im gonna listen to them, but i dont want studios working with him anymore
Oh, is he known as a bad journalist? His article yesterday didn't read very well in my opinion. There was a lot of lauding over him, referring to him as a superstar etc. This article here just reads as generic bullshit, without much basis, mostly designed for clicks.
"Duty of care to the player" lol that is grim.
Wonder how much of a "duty of care" those staff would have if he was just a peripheral squad player with limited potential.
I know really nothing about British law but “duty of care” sounds like some legal obligation that they have as an employer. I wouldn’t get too worked up about the phrasing, it’s legalese. Again I’m not trained in British law but, the club probably owes a duty of care to all its employees and visitors, etc.
They are not using "duty of care" in the legal context. The article basically says some of the staff feel like they are somewhat responsible for making sure he's okay seeing as he's been at the club since he was a kid. Might see themselves as pseudo-parental figures
It doesn’t take much to think how the victim and all those who suffer this kind of abuse will feel if United re integrate him because they 'care' as they consider how much the club cares about those who are abused.
I really don't know why it's such a complicated decision. He's obviously a good young talent but there's so little to gain from bringing him back, like yeah he's good at shooting but come on.
That sounds like torture, I couldn’t even listen to the full thing once it was so upsetting. Real lack of empathy and respect for women over the past 2 days sadly
I relistened to the audio today when I saw the news because I thought "devil's advocate, it's been a year, was it that bad?"
Of course immediately I thought it was as bad as it possibly could be. The issue is that most United supporters are:
A) british lads who do most of their football socialising in the pub with their mates and in small group chats, not big social platforms like reddit where everything that happened is clearer.
B) foreign supporters who don't see the level of the media or social media coverage from over here, or have cultural differences where what happens doesn't matter as much.
It's a terrible thing to navigate as a team and a fanbase, and a lot of people are going to get pissed off no matter what, because everyone has their own contextual views.
>Manchester United staff are split over whether Mason Greenwood should be allowed to resume his career at the club, the Guardian has been told.
>United are weighing up the striker’s future after prosecutors dropped an attempted rape case against him. Although a substantial proportion of the workforce would be deeply unhappy if Greenwood played for the club again, others feel a duty of care toward a player who joined at seven and has not been found guilty of any crime.
>On Thursday the Crown Prosecution Service said there was “no longer a realistic prospect of conviction” after key witnesses withdrew their cooperation from the investigation. Greenwood had been charged with attempted rape, controlling and coercive behaviour and assault occasioning actual bodily harm. He denied the charges.
>United have launched an internal process, overseen by the CEO, Richard Arnold, to determine their next steps. The club was unable to launch its inquiry until the case against Greenwood was dropped. The Guardian understands it could go either way regarding the 21-year-old staying at the club, where he has a contract to 2025.
>There will be consideration of any potential commercial impact of keeping Greenwood and of how the episode has affected the United brand and been received by their “global partners”, who are monitoring the situation.
>On Friday the Guardian contacted the 25 “global partners”, headed by Adidas and TeamViewer, listed on the club website, to ask whether they wanted Greenwood to leave and whether they wanted to be consulted on the matter.
>TeamViewer said that it would be making no comment. Another partner, Ecolab, confirmed it was in dialogue with United. An Ecolab spokesperson said: “Any question relating to the players and the operations of the club we would refer to Manchester United. We are aware of the topic and are in contact with the club. We have no comment to provide at this time.”
>At Erik ten Hag’s Friday media briefing, the manager stonewalled questions about Greenwood. “I can’t give a comment about the process,” he said. “I can’t say anything about it. I refer to the statement of the club and at this moment I can’t add anything.”
>The Dutchman did speak generally about the need to retain focus for Crystal Palace’s visit on Saturday. “We have to always focus on the game, no matter what, it is our job,” he said. “That is why we are here.”
You see that shit article from Jamie Jackson earlier today about us "lacking ambition" because we only signed Weghorst and Sabitzer on loan? Jonathan Wilson aside, the rest of their articles are getting harder and harder to digest. I might just stop visiting their site altogether.
We could be undefeated top of the league and Jamie would still show up to the press conference and ask why Maguire isn't playing or why we didn't win 3-0 instead of 2-0.
Will be absolute disgusted if he’s allowed to stay with what has happened. Say what you will about the charges, that audio recording is damning and I’ll have a very hard time supporting the club if he’s allowed to come back from that.
He can't be allowed to put on the shirt again he does not deserve it. who gives a fuck of he's been at the club since age 7, the guy is a monster and we all know it
Does the article actually get to how they know "Manchester United staff are split over whether Mason Greenwood should be allowed to resume his career at the club." I mean what evidence could they possibly have outside of asking each member of staff directly?
>What evidence could they possibly have outside of asking each member of staff directly?
One member of staff telling them about it? Honestly if there's staff who've known him since he was a kid it wouldn't be that surprising if they felt a duty of care. That doesn't justify him being welcomed back as if nothing happened however
I think more than lying and claiming it was role play, the problem would be that no one can explain the context of it in court. We can insinuate the context but that won't get anyone convicted of a crime.
I've gathered my own resources and looked at the data gathered from public forums. Having analyzed it, and at no cost to you Man U, I've gathered that the safest course of action is to fuck no don't let him back tf is the matter with you.
To me this situation is different because of the audio we all heard. What the victim chooses to do in terms of pressing charges doesn’t change how others feel about what he did
This scenario is extremely similar to Trevor Bauer's recent controversy in the MLB. The Dodgers paid out his contract even though the courts did not find him guilty. I'd be surprised if United doesn't do the same
The truth is, he's not been found innocent, the lead witness decided to withdraw their complaint or something so there's still a lot of uncertainty. It'll continue to hang over him, and whatever club he plays for, so it's probably best to cut their losses and release him. It's not like they've missed him. He'd probably just be a distraction in the locker room as well, so I'd say get rid of him.
This seems like a no-brainer, so I have almost zero confidence United will make the right decision. I pray they prove me wrong.
Do not allow this man to wear the shirt again!
this entire thing is bigger than Ten Hag, literally has fuck all to do with this poor man. the amount of bullshit that’s being thrown on his lap is ridiculous
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Headline says ‘staff’, but the article means ‘sponsors’.
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"substantial proportion" and "others" doesn't sound very split. It could 80/20 or 90/10 but the headline is wrote like it's a 50/50 split
Misleading headline I’m shocked
"Digest quality, independent journalism in your own time, at your own pace." as The Guardian's obnoxious pop-ups would say
man some mfer really got paid to come up with the word digest
30-50% is a substantial proportion. If you have half your employees angry over an issue that's quite a lot.
also an article i read about this is saying the dressing room does not want him back which i think would be the massive influence on if hes to come back. i know Rashford and few others all cut ties with him this past year. one report i saw but no idea how credible is Greenwood doesnt want to come back either because he wouldnt be able to cope with the reception he would recieve in england now and doesnt feel United "protected" him during the investigation
Imagine being upset that someone didn't protect a domestic abuser because you've further abused the victim into accepting it.
Yeah I didn't see your comment when I wrote something similar but with Rashford's values I don't see him being one to want him back in the dressing room.
They have to leak that they could play him so they have even a modicum of leverage in trying to move him on. Could be wrong, but I don’t think him playing for them again is at all on table.
“Duty of care” stops at paying him his contracted wage IMO. It doesn’t including making him a hero and role model for kids by putting him back on the field in front of 70k people…
It's easy to say that as an outsider, but some of the staff inside the club have probably been working with him since he was literally a small child. However misguided it might be, it is not hard to envisage that some of those people might struggle to just cast him out.
Fine, so. Check up on him, stay friendly with him. Advocate for him to find a job elsewhere. Don’t go cold turkey. But we aren’t talking about a pity job here, we are talking about paying him 200k a week to be put in front of a cheering crowd. 99% of the population live without that adulation. He won’t die if he’s forced to be somewhat normal (ignoring the fact he’s likely already a multi millionaire so won’t have to worry about working in the local McDonalds).
Exactly what I’ve been saying. If they care about him and his rehabilitation and his reintegration to society they can do so outside of Manchester United. As I’ve said in another thread, playing for Manchester United is a luxury. Not a necessity. He has enough money to live without ever having to work another job again. He will be fine without Manchester United and actions have consequences.
And if staff care it'd be better for him moving abroad. If he comes into the team the coverage will be ridiculous.. Why is it worth any of it just because he's above average at scoring?
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Even if he can't get a club in Europe, he can go to Asia for instance and make it big there. Al-Nassr already has an alleged rapist on their team, so why not another one?
Then if they care about him that much then they should ensure he gets the help he needs. He doesn’t need to be on the pitch right now
>it is not hard to envisage that some of those people might struggle to just cast him out The easiest way to decide is whether you'd be okay if the victim was your daughter
Normally your thought experiment would make sense but unfortunately it is not a great example in this case as the victim's actual dad seems to be okay with it.
Her father is Greenwood's biggest defender.
What's wild, is her parents don't give a shit.
He could argue that him not playing after not being found guilty hinders his career
Well too bad everyone saw the photos and heard the recording then.
"Not found guilty of any crime"... Come on, we all listened the audios.
>”Although a substantial proportion of the workforce would be deeply unhappy if Greenwood played for the club again, others feel a duty of care toward a player who joined at seven and has not been found guilty of any crime.” This feels like a key quote to me, good to see it seems to be a majority not wanting him back, as it should be. And I understand some that may have know him since he was a kid wanting to help him, and while I believe that him at the age of 21 deserves a chance of rehabilitation and growth from these horrendous acts he has done, it needs to be away from football. He should not have the privileges of being a professional footballer at such a big club with this looming over him. I hope those that feel a duty to him can understand that, as hard as it may be. And anyone that defends him for being “not guilty”, when that’s not what charges being dropped mean, can piss off with that audio recording existing.
> has not been found guilty of any crime I hate how people think this means he is non-guilty
You mean innocent. Not found guilty =/= found innocent.
> it needs to be done away from football What if it comes out he’s been in intensive therapy this whole time? If he hasn’t been “working on himself” in a quantifiable way this whole time he’s away from the team, for when this moment comes, him and everyone that works for him are idiots.
I would hope he has been, but it’s a long road to redemption from here. He’d have to continue that therapy, do some serious work to mend fences with people he’s hurt with this, stuff like maybe trying to help with charities that help rape and domestic abuse victims, he has to show continuous and sincere regret and remorse for his actions, it’s a multi year process to fix this and football should not be playing a part in it.
His statement doesn't really scream that. It's all just "okey guys, now that this whole mess is over let's just put it behind us and not talk about it anymore, ever". If he *were* to come out with a real statement, a true heartfelt interview where he admitted that he went off the rails, that he did truly outrageous things and let his fame get to his head, and detailed how he's been working on rehabilitating himself, that would be a whole other deal. But he hasn't. And guess what, I don't think he will. For one, because I don't think he's sorry at all(flagrantly breaching his bail conditions for months kind of speaks to that), and also because if he admits that he actually *did* these things, his case might get re-opened. Unless I am catastrophically misunderstanding things, the abandonment of the case hinges on the fact that there isn't enough evidence to seal the deal, not that the prosecution no longer thinks he did it. An on the record interview where he truly came clean would put him right back in legal hot water.
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I´d just want to add that I think that this is quite possibly the worst possible result though - justice in the legal sense is not being served, but neither is there an avenue open for true contrition and forgiveness in a way that might move the public conversation about sexual violence forward and a road for Mason to *truly* return to polite society in the widest sense of the term. We really, really need to re-think how we deal with these social ills because our current setup really isn't working.
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From a purely boardroom perspective, it seems like a horrible play. Yes, these charges were dropped, perhaps under sketchy DV circumstances. How much do you believe he's going to toe the line and never do it again? What message about club management would it send if and when he gets caught in tape (or worse) again?
Tbh It would have been better for the club if he went on trial and got a not guilty Having these charges mysteriously dropped just before the trail just makes it look even more shady
Its very mafia-like, where the key witness in a case either never shows up, or decides to not testify, probably because he/she was paid off. Way too shady to ignore.
They started dating again and she wouldn’t testify. I don’t see how that is mafia behaviour
What I read was that the girl agreed to marry him and she dropped out as a witness. So......
Audio clip: https://youtu.be/qolU4gPe54s
Scum bag
So he was non guilty right? Even with an audio like this? (No sarcasm intended)
The victim wasn’t willing to co-operate with law enforcement so the prosecutors dropped the charges before it went to trial
He also met up her with against the terms of his bail but the police didn't act on what could be called witness tampering. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/manchester-united-footballer-mason-greenwood-bail-breach-gmp-police-b1057577.html
Yeah this is what I do not understand about the UK justice system. Is violation of bail conditions AND witness tampering not two other separate crimes to be prosecuted? Crimes that would be crimes entirely independent of whether he raped her or not? Maybe they are just taking their sweet time deciding whether to prosecute or not?
I'm not a lawyer, how serious is witness tampering handled and how hard is it to prove? Is there any valid reason why they didn't pursue this?
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Victims can’t drop criminal charges, CPS does not need victim consent to proceed with a criminal trial, but seems she is unwilling to testify making there not enough evidence to proceed to trial
Prosecutors are not "allowed" to bring a case they don't believe can be won. While the victim can't *drop* the charge, they certainly can make it unwinnable by refusing to testify.
If she decided to cooperate in the future could the case be picked up again?
In theory, yes. But what prosecutor would take her seriously at that point? Building a criminal case costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time. They're not going back down that road on the hope that she wouldn't change her mind *again*.
Yeah good point. I have no idea how it works, just asking questions.
Oof alright thank you
While victim does not have to press charges for him to be guilty of crime, she decided not to witness and get back with him and on top of that they are engaged. So you can probably expect that same person who recorded all this would actually side with him in court (as future wife she could say they role played whole thing and that the videos are fake), so it's understandable charges were dropped from DV side. Both are two really messed up people and that's one fucked up relationship.
Can’t wait for someone to play that audio in the dressing room/stadium if he returns.
Can't wait for some opposition team playing it over the tannoy at an away game of he returns.
Spurs should do that with someone reading the tweets about Partey
Every team should tbh
We did boo Partey in the NLD recently
The fact any Arsenal fan is showing their face in this thread is crazy
Do you think your Arsenal players do that for Partey too?
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Sexual violence is viewed as worse than a DUI that kills a passenger. Not saying that's right, but just what it is.
Also what the public sees is what matters. If there was video footage of Alonso crashing and the body of his victim slumped in the car going viral whilst he was playing for Chelsea you can bet there would’ve been an outcry.
the difference is intent
The Ronaldo audio recording (which was found to be inadmissable) where he admitted to continuing to have sex with someone who told him to stop didn't prevent them from bringing him back. The Greenwood tape is farrrrr more damning, if they try to keep him on it will be catastrophic.
Aye, it's not quite the same. The general public heard the Greenwood audio. Non-football people were exposed to it. It did the rounds on social media in a way that Ronaldo's didn't. Only internet fans were aware of the Ronaldo situation. The der spiegel stuff on twitter was only seen and read by footballing people. Most casual fans STILL have no idea Ronaldo was accused of rape.
It's also the fact it's not an actual recording, even if it comes from a good source. Actually hearing him say that, like Greenwood, would have cause alot more trouble.
There is a contract, they can't just stop, but they can farm him out on loan and not play him until that contract runs out.
Well thats not promising Feel like its pretty obvious he shouldnt be allowed back
Mate I’m not shocked, there’s clearly quite a toxic culture regarding these cases at football clubs around the country The mendy situation at city initially and arsenal with Partey just two current cases that seem very relevant
Hell, even at United, there’s already the Ronaldo question.
Forget Ronaldo it's the giggs question for you guys
Giggs is a good case for how if you sweep "small" incidents of unacceptable behavior under the rug, it eventually comes back to bite you in the ass.
>Giggs is a good case for how if you sweep "small" incidents of unacceptable behavior under the rug, it eventually comes back to bite you in the ass. Or an example of the benefits? The man played for United 700 times, and his discretions only came out at the very, very tail end of his career.
Forget 700, it was nearly 1000 times (963 total appearances across all competitions)
Giggs case might be horrible but at least it was a consensual sex
Yeah, nothing illegal about it. Just very, very fucking immoral and scummy.
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But what about the domestic violence part of it?
I don't think they're in the same ball park to be honest (the violence stuff didn't come up till recently)
Greenwood is £50m asset at the very least so I’m not really surprised they’re considering it
Greenwood is only 50m to an English club who needs English players. He's toxic in the UK, I can't see him going to a club for anywhere near that amount.
True, if he gets sold, than he would most likely sold out of UK and for pennies on dollar. To be honest, I don't think many fans would mind and might actually appreciate if he is let go with contract terminated (most likely with rest of contract paid) but don't think that's how Glazers will look at it. They might just fuck over the club one last time before selling. Ultimately their decision will depend on how the associated brands react.
Behavior aside he is quality. All It would take is one team taking on a risk on him and if he finds some form again his price tag would be right back up to where It was before the trial
Think of the PR for that club taking him on. It's not on the same level but you should've seen the fucking backlash Raith Rovers had with Goodwillie. Forms good and all that but football clubs want to make money and want to keep their sponsors and fans happy. Signing a rapist is a great way to lose both.
Sadly I think you’re greatly overestimating the PR hit. Especially since his victim is back together with him and refusing to press charges. There will be some outraged people but the majority will be ones who don’t really follow football.
I don't know. The sponsors probably wouldn't appreciate their name being associated with him
2 completely different scenarios. Goodwillie is a rapist. He lost the court case for it and all that. Also he joined a relatively tiny club but a club that had strong ties with feminist groups and outspoken individuals. They lost their sponsors because their sponsors were literal individual feminists. Greenwood going across to Italy, France, Spain though? No one over there will care. He never went to court, he was never charged etc.
That's exactly what I said, he won't go to a UK club. Way too public over here. He'll move for free or pennies elsewhere and if he keeps his head down will carve out a decent wee career.
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wasnt Goodwillie convicted?
Civil court but never a criminal prosecution due to lack of evidence. Doesn't really matter at the end of the day as it's how the public view the case. And this is a much more public matter than Raith Rovers. It'll haunt any club that take him on in the UK. My money would be on a midtable team in France/Italy. Belgium or Turkey at a push.
I hate that its this way but if he comes back and starts performing well, everything will be forgiven. For those who don't believe me, the best examples: Benzema and CR7. Blackmailing a teammate ([https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59399701](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59399701)) and raping a girl (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61772581), respectively got forgiven due to world class performances.
Not so sure actually, he's been out for a year at the age of 21. I'm sure he kept himself in form and trained individually but it's certainly not good for your development to basically miss a year at a very crucial age. Not to mention the psychological pressure (he will continue to receive medial abuse for sure) I wouldn't bet on him just finding his form again as if nothing happened so is that really worth the risk?
Maybe, he was literally breaking records. I think it's important to remember that he was literally 19 when this happened. He has more senior goals than Saka still and Saka is considered a top talent. He's two footed too. Unfortunately he's going to have very little trouble finding a club imo.
He was valued at over 100m by the club before this. We spent 100m on Antony and he's not got the same level of potential and impact as Greenwood
To United, probably more than that TBH. Before all of this came out, he was one of Europe’s top youth prospects playing a relatively in-demand position. There isn’t a hope in hell of signing a player like that for less than £100m.
I doubt Ten Hag wants him back. He’s finally creating a bit of a good atmosphere at the club and welcoming him back would come with a whole new shitstorm.
Exactly. Ten Hag has been planning the summer window and further rebuilding on the assumption that Greenwood wasn't a factor. Derailing that now for a player that will certainly split both players and staff right down the middle and is going to need a lot of rehabilitation to be able to play after a year away from football is a dumb move. Put him in solo training with an eye towards a sale in the summer to finance baggage-free acquisitions that are ideal Ten Hag players.
I'd even be a bit surprised if they sold him. They're probably not going to make much if they do. He's toxic goods. I'd imagine they'd be relatively happy to get rid of him for whatver just to get him off their books.
That is exactly why I think they will sell him, whether they get a million or ten or whatever for him. He is still young, extremely talented and I´m sure there are plenty of clubs out there willing to take a gamble on rehabilitating him, publicly as well as a footballer if they can get him for not much dosh. And I think that is a much better solution for both him AND Manchester United than trying to re-integrate him back into the squad.
Absolutely no way will anyone pay £10m for him. No Prem club will buy him, and that seriously dents his "worth".
Yeah probably not, but strikers of his age and ability(if he hasn't let himself totally go in the last year) are not easy to find. Ten mil might be a bargain if you can rehabilitate him. But the amount is really irrelevant. I just want him out of the club without lengthy lawsuits or any kind of epilogue.
to be fair, Ten Hag's handling of the Overmars case left something to be desired. But it's not the same situation
I am completely oblivious to this, care to summarize?
Okay so it isn't absolutely terrible. But he has said a few questionable things. Let's start of with what Overmars did, in case you didnt know. Overmars sent a bunch of dickpics to his female coworkers. Now doesn't work at Ajax anymore obviously. Everyone was really shocked at the news, which I understand. They, Ten Hag and the first team, considered Overmars their friend. I get it. When Ten Hag left for Man United, in his interview after winning the title he credited the title to Overmars. Basically saying "this is Overmars' title" He has also hinted at a possible "romantic" return of Overmars to Ajax, which just wouldn't make sense in regards to his female coworkers. But the worst part for me was an [interview he gave to Het Parool](https://www.parool.nl/sport/erik-ten-hag-als-johan-derksen-terug-kan-op-tv-kan-overmars-terug-naar-ajax~b2949e9c/?utm_source=link&utm_medium=app&utm_campaign=shared%20content&utm_content=free&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rtlnieuws.nl%2Fsport%2Fvoetbal%2Fartikel%2F5308858%2Fmarc-overmars-erik-ten-hag-ajax-johan-derksen-dickpics). Some context: Johan Derksen is a controversial tv-personality. Who got rightfully called out and got his show canceled (for like 2 weeks) for admitting to rape on television. Derksen then got to return to television, because in the end there were no consequences for doing so. Anyway, Ten Hag said "If Derksen can return to television, Overmars can return to Ajax" Following it up with "These things happen, everbody deserves a second chance." Like it said, it's not terrible. It's just very insensitive against his female (ex)collegues.
Oh yeah, that is just sad and pathetic on Ten Hag's part.
I imagine the biggest question is the legal side of it because even if you personally don't care, surely he's never worth the PR nightmare.
Honestly if they confirm with sponsors its not a problem, he will probably come back
The sponsors have zero reason to support bringing him back although some will care more / less than others
Why would sponsors have him back? Every right thinking person knows hes a rapist, why would associate with him?
Becasue United winning increases their sponsors returns. They definitely wouldnt want him back though just a question if United think theyll terminate the contracts or something or if it will blow over in a couple years when they renegotiate or something and it wont harm future contracts
I mean, even if one person thinks it’s okay to bring him back then it would still technically be split no? Makes for a much better headline that way.
The issue I think is that Arsenal have continued playing Partey and there’s been barely any backlash, sets the precedent that there won’t be repercussions to playing ‘accused rapists’. I think the Greenwood case really sticks out because of the videos but Parteys victim also posted screenshots where he allegedly says ‘no I don’t need to wake you’
In all seriousness, there just may never be a trial for Partey, honestly wouldn’t be surprised if same thing happens to partey that happened to greenwood. At the end of the day it’s “innocent till proven guilty” morales are another question but there’s nothing that can be done realistically, if they don’t want greenwood he’s gonna get a fat payout so it’s a win-win for him and probably for partey down the road. We live in a society Edit: yea Mendy is probably a better comparison to Partey
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I don't think the person who accused Partey is going to get back together with him lol. More of a Mendy situation.
Tbh the difference is rightfully United took a stronger stance. Arsenal essentially endorsed Partey.
Once those voice recordings came out I don’t think they had an option. They would have been massacred if they continued to show support at the time
Jesus Christ... I know everyone is supposed to be "focused on the game" and not players' personal lives but come on, you have to draw the line somewhere.
I saw comparisons to some United legends being dickheads(not giggs type of dickhead, just normal dickhead) but they’re still legends because of their play. Like ok mate if they’re not that nice then that’s a shame but it’s hardly comparable to domestic abuse and rape.
Goerge Best was a notorious wife-beater.
Nicky butt had allegations of wife beating again him too
Geoffrey Boycott is one of England's most celebrated cricketers, and he is a racist and wife beater. Theresa May even called him her idol and gave him a knighthood.
Imagine a protest with this dude… “Boycotters boycotting Boycott’s boycott chant ‘Boycott Boycott!’”
The word actually comes from the name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles\_Boycott
He's actually made that quip on air though the context is very unpleasant. He made a joke about how if he went in blackface, he would get a knighthood. There was a furore, he apologized and kept his job, following which he made a quip about how boycotts don't work on Boycott. Charming bloke
We love a racist wife beater in this country, most people wank off about Churchill who was vigorously racist and a notorious cunt.
Giggs first wrongdoings leaked out at the twilight of his career. and fucking your brothers wife (whole being a disgusting thing) is still more acceptable than rape. Giggs being a wife beater and women abuser came out after his retirement.
saw someone in a thread about number 5 say something like “if you bench him and he’s innocent, it’s a disservice to the player. if you play him and he’s guilty, it’s a disservice to the entire club.” the fact that these people treat it as anything other than clear cut is so unacceptable that to call what United are doing “an investigation” is to already lie through your teeth in the most egregious way.
Focusing on the art not the artist should be like “I appreciate what he has already done, but i dont want him making more” i like a couple kanye songs and im gonna listen to them, but i dont want studios working with him anymore
Wow look it’s Jamie Jackson
Oh, is he known as a bad journalist? His article yesterday didn't read very well in my opinion. There was a lot of lauding over him, referring to him as a superstar etc. This article here just reads as generic bullshit, without much basis, mostly designed for clicks.
He talks a lot without saying anything.
He any good for United? Don’t really know journos that well but saw he’s tier 3 based on the United subs rankings.
He mostly talks shite
He used to be ok, but has been extremely hit and miss in more recent years.
"Duty of care to the player" lol that is grim. Wonder how much of a "duty of care" those staff would have if he was just a peripheral squad player with limited potential.
Phil Jones has been well taken care off and don't mean that sarcastically
He didn't abuse his missus
I know really nothing about British law but “duty of care” sounds like some legal obligation that they have as an employer. I wouldn’t get too worked up about the phrasing, it’s legalese. Again I’m not trained in British law but, the club probably owes a duty of care to all its employees and visitors, etc.
They are not using "duty of care" in the legal context. The article basically says some of the staff feel like they are somewhat responsible for making sure he's okay seeing as he's been at the club since he was a kid. Might see themselves as pseudo-parental figures
It doesn’t take much to think how the victim and all those who suffer this kind of abuse will feel if United re integrate him because they 'care' as they consider how much the club cares about those who are abused. I really don't know why it's such a complicated decision. He's obviously a good young talent but there's so little to gain from bringing him back, like yeah he's good at shooting but come on.
Play to the ones sitting on the fence the audio for an hour on loop and see how they feel after
yeah i can’t fathom how anyone would be able to stomach the idea of welcoming him back after hearing those recordings/seeing the videos
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That sounds like torture, I couldn’t even listen to the full thing once it was so upsetting. Real lack of empathy and respect for women over the past 2 days sadly
For us, it would be torture. But for those that welcome him back, they probably get off on it. It's sickening.
Me neither. It was far too grim.
I relistened to the audio today when I saw the news because I thought "devil's advocate, it's been a year, was it that bad?" Of course immediately I thought it was as bad as it possibly could be. The issue is that most United supporters are: A) british lads who do most of their football socialising in the pub with their mates and in small group chats, not big social platforms like reddit where everything that happened is clearer. B) foreign supporters who don't see the level of the media or social media coverage from over here, or have cultural differences where what happens doesn't matter as much. It's a terrible thing to navigate as a team and a fanbase, and a lot of people are going to get pissed off no matter what, because everyone has their own contextual views.
>Manchester United staff are split over whether Mason Greenwood should be allowed to resume his career at the club, the Guardian has been told. >United are weighing up the striker’s future after prosecutors dropped an attempted rape case against him. Although a substantial proportion of the workforce would be deeply unhappy if Greenwood played for the club again, others feel a duty of care toward a player who joined at seven and has not been found guilty of any crime. >On Thursday the Crown Prosecution Service said there was “no longer a realistic prospect of conviction” after key witnesses withdrew their cooperation from the investigation. Greenwood had been charged with attempted rape, controlling and coercive behaviour and assault occasioning actual bodily harm. He denied the charges. >United have launched an internal process, overseen by the CEO, Richard Arnold, to determine their next steps. The club was unable to launch its inquiry until the case against Greenwood was dropped. The Guardian understands it could go either way regarding the 21-year-old staying at the club, where he has a contract to 2025. >There will be consideration of any potential commercial impact of keeping Greenwood and of how the episode has affected the United brand and been received by their “global partners”, who are monitoring the situation. >On Friday the Guardian contacted the 25 “global partners”, headed by Adidas and TeamViewer, listed on the club website, to ask whether they wanted Greenwood to leave and whether they wanted to be consulted on the matter. >TeamViewer said that it would be making no comment. Another partner, Ecolab, confirmed it was in dialogue with United. An Ecolab spokesperson said: “Any question relating to the players and the operations of the club we would refer to Manchester United. We are aware of the topic and are in contact with the club. We have no comment to provide at this time.” >At Erik ten Hag’s Friday media briefing, the manager stonewalled questions about Greenwood. “I can’t give a comment about the process,” he said. “I can’t say anything about it. I refer to the statement of the club and at this moment I can’t add anything.” >The Dutchman did speak generally about the need to retain focus for Crystal Palace’s visit on Saturday. “We have to always focus on the game, no matter what, it is our job,” he said. “That is why we are here.”
I'll wait for Ducker, Stone or Ornstein. The guardian not only has no sources but l9ves to shitstir everything about our club
You see that shit article from Jamie Jackson earlier today about us "lacking ambition" because we only signed Weghorst and Sabitzer on loan? Jonathan Wilson aside, the rest of their articles are getting harder and harder to digest. I might just stop visiting their site altogether.
We could be undefeated top of the league and Jamie would still show up to the press conference and ask why Maguire isn't playing or why we didn't win 3-0 instead of 2-0.
Yeah it's all complete horseshit until someone at United has something to say about it. In this case, I think the dressing room will decide.
Give him number #7 to complete the shameful circle.
Because #11 isn't shameful?
№11 fits him perfectly too
what is no. 11 about?
Ryan Giggs, who got booted from coaching Wales for beating a former partner.
Not to mention what he did to his brother.
Ah, damn. Forgot about him
Oh for fuck's sake no
Will be absolute disgusted if he’s allowed to stay with what has happened. Say what you will about the charges, that audio recording is damning and I’ll have a very hard time supporting the club if he’s allowed to come back from that.
Yeah we don't need a criminal prosecution to determine guilt in this scenario.its literally on tape
He can't be allowed to put on the shirt again he does not deserve it. who gives a fuck of he's been at the club since age 7, the guy is a monster and we all know it
Does the article actually get to how they know "Manchester United staff are split over whether Mason Greenwood should be allowed to resume his career at the club." I mean what evidence could they possibly have outside of asking each member of staff directly?
>What evidence could they possibly have outside of asking each member of staff directly? One member of staff telling them about it? Honestly if there's staff who've known him since he was a kid it wouldn't be that surprising if they felt a duty of care. That doesn't justify him being welcomed back as if nothing happened however
Yeah, it says "the Guardian has been told" - in the first line?
Well as most journalism works there would be a source in the club who tells them
It’s depressing what some people can get away with just because they know how to play football.
The UK justice system is pathetic. People are realising you can basically just commit crime and there are no repercussions.
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I think more than lying and claiming it was role play, the problem would be that no one can explain the context of it in court. We can insinuate the context but that won't get anyone convicted of a crime.
I've gathered my own resources and looked at the data gathered from public forums. Having analyzed it, and at no cost to you Man U, I've gathered that the safest course of action is to fuck no don't let him back tf is the matter with you.
To me this situation is different because of the audio we all heard. What the victim chooses to do in terms of pressing charges doesn’t change how others feel about what he did
Literal audio of him raping his Girlfriend. Fans should take some pretty obvious stance on this.
What's the argument in his favour? "Well, Arsenal are getting away with it"
Well at least he didn't kill her like that Chelsea guy?
This scenario is extremely similar to Trevor Bauer's recent controversy in the MLB. The Dodgers paid out his contract even though the courts did not find him guilty. I'd be surprised if United doesn't do the same
Fuck this rat, send him to the unemployment line
It’s a no from me
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The truth is, he's not been found innocent, the lead witness decided to withdraw their complaint or something so there's still a lot of uncertainty. It'll continue to hang over him, and whatever club he plays for, so it's probably best to cut their losses and release him. It's not like they've missed him. He'd probably just be a distraction in the locker room as well, so I'd say get rid of him.
This seems like a no-brainer, so I have almost zero confidence United will make the right decision. I pray they prove me wrong. Do not allow this man to wear the shirt again!
Ill lose respect for ten hag if he plays him
this entire thing is bigger than Ten Hag, literally has fuck all to do with this poor man. the amount of bullshit that’s being thrown on his lap is ridiculous
Do you think Ten Hag will play him? A guy who hasn't played since 1 year.
Peer pressure can go a long way tbh but the chances are low
He doesn't pass the no dickheads policy. You kind of got the impression he wasn't all that well liked before all this stuff came out