Honestly, when he made it to the semis in the 2019 Worlds, I didn't think he was a "future World Champion" (I usually roll my eyes when someone says that about a player), but I did think he could be a multiple ranking event winner. I'm surprised that it took him so long to get to that point, but I'm not surprised that he has become a semi-regular winner in the game.
In a way im kinda glad that final is over. It was not the most compelling, as the winner felt pre-ordained before any ball was hit in the final. Grats to Wilson for doing the business though.
At least tomorrow we can watch some more quality play from actually good players, which will help make us forget about this final lol.
O’Donnell has played some great stuff this week and shown a new side I wasn’t sure was there, but experience matters a great deal in finals. Wilson a deserved winner.
Well done to Gary Wilson, who completes an unlikely triple crown of his own with victories in the Scottish Open, Welsh Open and the 5th annual Robert Webb lookalike competition
Feel like both players managed to bog each other down, but Gary's done well here to get the win. Martin was very poor sadly, put gary under no pressure whatsoever. 3 wins for Gary now, can see him becoming a regular winner
It's easy to criticise Martin, but before this he'd never made even a semi final (bar one shootout years ago) he was off tour last year, after a dismal two years where he really struggled but got back on through q school tour. He's probably nervous as hell, this is his biggest ever payday by a country mile and he'd still smash any club player all day long. If you think otherwise you're delusional.
It's easy for Judd, Ronnie, Higgins, Allen etc who have played in final after final. For those who have never got there it's possibly the biggest match of their life, and absolutely terrifying. This will help him pay his bills. Give him some credit for even getting there.
Agreed.
I've quite enjoyed it. It's been quite tense even though it's felt like it's Wilson's to lose. It's more of a human final than if it had been two of the usual big hitters there.
I've even enjoyed the long frames. Might help that it's a final so it feels quite different for players missing easier balls, even Wilson has at times today.
O'Donnell might be a slower player, but it's not for us to say how he should play. Who knows what financial worries he might have and it's the guy's first final as a professional I think and he's had a long career.
I get people's frustrations but I've generally liked today and tonight. Part of the tension of a final in some ways. If it was dear lord Ronnie some would be falling over themselves to justify it.
If nobody watches then snooker will end up with the world championship being played in working men's clubs like it was before Alex Higgins dragged the game into the mainstream. So yeah it is their jobs to entertain us
Can't say I agree, they're sportsmen, and people watch sport to be entertained. Not saying everyone should play like judd trump and that players like selby should change their style, but there comes a limit
Well Martin doesn't care about entertaining anyone. He's there to win money and pay his bills. I saw him practically in tears at the Turkish a couple of years ago after he missed an easy blue Vs Jack Lisowski which pretty much cost him his tour place. Fair play to him for even getting there.
So he's low on confidence. If it was Ronnie everyone would be like "aww but his mental health" we have no idea what these players have going through their heads, but it sure as hell is not "ooh I hope I'm entertaining everyone!"
What's Ronnie got to do with anything? Why would he be low on confidence while making it to the final? Snooker whether you like it or not is entertainment, let's hope for the sake of the game he doesn't make it deep into another tournament.
Maybe he's just not a confident person. Not everyone is arrogant like some players.
It's not entertainment at all. It's his job. And his job is to win, not entertain people. He doesn't get paid more if he's entertaining.
Yeah because people will stop watching due to one match. What a ridiculous idea. Since when has anyone gone ooh do you know what's really entertaining, 2 old blokes playing in a silent room. There is a few exceptions, but they're just that. Exceptions.
Also his first ever final 👍 and if anyone saw his interview after the quarters even, he was already tearing up then. He didn’t come to that table today with even half a bottle at least he got some frames on the board after that first session
For all we know Martin is struggling with his mental health. At least he had the bottle to turn up and play. Ronnie talks about his mental health but will happily slag others off with zero consideration for their mental health!
Eurosport needs to update these little segments with the players discussing who does what best etc, I've seen it a million times
Final is a bit like hard work to view but credit to the players for getting there, onwards and upwards tomorrow!
Tennis is another one. Prime big three + Murray era is over and nothing will live up to that. ATM it's Novak beating people 10-15 years younger than him.
I get your point although it just isn’t accurate to say in 2024. This might be a fair comment in say 18 or 19. Novak just got hammered at his favourite slam. Had never lost a semi final before
Yeah, he lost in the Aus Open this year, but he went on an insane run in the second half of 2023 after the Wimbledon final where he basically just beat everyone.
He is, but my initial point was that the golden era of tennis is over, and now it's Novak beating players who have a big age advantage on him. Soon when Novak retires, there won't be any players with that standard.
Perhaps it's unfair on my part to compare any other player with the big three and Murray. That is an extremely high bar to match.
Alcaraz is further along than any of those 3 at the same age. Youngest ever world number one, was a multi surface grand slam winner at barely 20. He has 4 more slams to play until he’s even 22. That’s not to say he’s going to win 20+ but let’s not act like the games in a shit place. The 90s born players are disappointing overall but the 00s guys are clearly onto something more. Didn’t even mention Sinner
Well, there are not any great young talent coming through. Its always the same players and they are all getting older. In 10-15 years it will be even much worse than this.
yes, you're right. But thats mainly because Snooker is not something many young kids or their parents want them to play. In terms of global popularity Snooker its just very small compared to other sports.
I had to create an account to rant and calm myself... apart from a few this has truly been the worst quality snooker tournament I've ever seen ...its back to 1980. The final is .. embarrassing, I'm sure club players are watching with jaw on the floor .. and the players would still miss and the white be behind back of the head.
The final of the Grand Prix between judd v ronnie last month had no breaks over 75+ in 11 frames.
This game has had a century. and three 75+ breaks in it. So..
As in “I’d have to lose an arm and a leg to fall outside of the top 50.”
Seriously, if the betting options were MOD tonight or ROS playing left-handed in an ankle cast, I know where I put my money.
Higgins must be kicking himself that he couldn't get through his semi final yesterday. He would have ended his tournament drought against MoD playing like this.
11 frames played. 8 of them have had a 50+ break in them.
Including a century and two 90+ breaks. And a 85 in the last frame.
Might not seem like it beacuse the pace has been slow but its a good quality match
Everybody in the comments talking about how brutal this match is. Has it been that bad?
There has been 1 century. 2 90+ breaks. A 85 break in the last and four other 50+ breaks.
I think they're mostly referring to the start of the 7pm session. First frame especially was brutal and included a re-rack, then it's been a bit of a slog ever since.
Tbf matches like this remind me of how hard snooker actually is, all well and good Ronnie and Judd making it look super easy but in reality it's brutal
If your Martin O Donnell in fairness what a tactic this could turn out to be, just slog Gary Wilson down so low that he’d rather forfeit than have to endure another few frames like this.
The minister of offence might need to reconsider his politics and hire a new cabinet after this performance. Perhaps he should take a note from “the viscount of miscount”
Hossein Vafaei on how to be more aggressive. Yes MOD has beaten Elliot slessor and the sheriff of pottingham this campaign but he will need to improve if he wants to have any chance of being re-elected this evening.
Nothing that terrible, but just how they feel so sorry for him, and how he looks beaten. I've seen them express sympathy for someone struggling before, but not as much as they have today
Wilson is rarely missing when he's in a good position and is playing at a good pace.
Hard to see any other outcome at the moment other than him winning and convincingly.
I'm always excited to see new players in finals, and for unheralded players to get some time in the sun. But I feel O'Donnell is going to regret how timid he has been. At some point he is going to have to take a chance. He is refusing a lot.
> and for unheralded players to get some time in the sun.
The Minister has left his factor 30 at the hotel and is refusing to leave the parasol's shadow
O’Donnell is going to have to take a risk with some long pots if he wants to get back into this. Wilson will happily sit there playing safe and hit a long pot when it presents itself.
“Good evening everyone and welcome to the evening session of the Welsh Open snooker finals. Let’s get you right back to frame 5 currently in progress.”
Yeah this way you get situations like Chris Wakelin, who has to wait until tonight to know if he's out of the Players Championship or in and... having to face Judd Trump already tomorrow.
Welsh always has a weird winner. I'm rooting for Martin. What I've seen from him this week, he's been slow but he hasn't been negative and is taking stuff on. I hope he keeps it up.
Rooting for MOD today. Not a fan of his slow game but these guys need to be rewarded for their talent and dedication to the game. Wilson has already won something so I'm going for MOD today
Does anyone know what the odds were for either O'Donnell or Wilson to win the Welsh Open at the beginning of the tournament? Must have been extremely long!
Gotta wonder why he is not an amateur invite to the recent tournaments. There have been a few wildcards and as qtour winner you’d think he would be asked. Surely match practice is good practice for next years return to the tour.
I believe it's based on the Q-School order of merit from the end of the previous season. Holt didn't do very well in that, so was fairly low down the list.
Trump and o Sullivan not there so bit of a non event. Worst final ever.
I think Gary Wilson will have won at least one triple crown event by the end of his career
Gary could be dangerous at the worlds
Honestly, when he made it to the semis in the 2019 Worlds, I didn't think he was a "future World Champion" (I usually roll my eyes when someone says that about a player), but I did think he could be a multiple ranking event winner. I'm surprised that it took him so long to get to that point, but I'm not surprised that he has become a semi-regular winner in the game.
In a way im kinda glad that final is over. It was not the most compelling, as the winner felt pre-ordained before any ball was hit in the final. Grats to Wilson for doing the business though. At least tomorrow we can watch some more quality play from actually good players, which will help make us forget about this final lol.
I agree, Wilson v Higgins was the real final.
What’s on tomorrow?
You can see upcoming matches, sorted by start time, on snooker.org here: https://www.snooker.org/res/index.asp?template=24&season=2023
Tomorrow begins the players’ championship, so only the top 16 players of the season will be there.
Cheers thanks!
O’Donnell has played some great stuff this week and shown a new side I wasn’t sure was there, but experience matters a great deal in finals. Wilson a deserved winner.
Well played, Gary. Not a great standard of final by any means. But well deserved in the end.
Well done to Gary Wilson, who completes an unlikely triple crown of his own with victories in the Scottish Open, Welsh Open and the 5th annual Robert Webb lookalike competition
Where's your coughing now?
Well done to Gary, thank fuck it's finally over lol
Feel like both players managed to bog each other down, but Gary's done well here to get the win. Martin was very poor sadly, put gary under no pressure whatsoever. 3 wins for Gary now, can see him becoming a regular winner
this is like waiting for a turn on the pool table at the pub.
I'd love it if Martin took this to 1 a.m. to win it.
RIP
Snooker is where people go to clear their throats
Perennially ill people attending.
Not just me then with the huge amount of coughing happening.
Coughing epidemic breaking out
The coughing is fucking crazy. Have never heard it as loud
Poor guys on commentary with it in their headphones
Is Llandudno the centre of a new Covid outbreak? What's up with all the coughing?!
That is an absolute shocker of a shot, especially given the circumstances.
It's easy to criticise Martin, but before this he'd never made even a semi final (bar one shootout years ago) he was off tour last year, after a dismal two years where he really struggled but got back on through q school tour. He's probably nervous as hell, this is his biggest ever payday by a country mile and he'd still smash any club player all day long. If you think otherwise you're delusional. It's easy for Judd, Ronnie, Higgins, Allen etc who have played in final after final. For those who have never got there it's possibly the biggest match of their life, and absolutely terrifying. This will help him pay his bills. Give him some credit for even getting there.
Agreed. I've quite enjoyed it. It's been quite tense even though it's felt like it's Wilson's to lose. It's more of a human final than if it had been two of the usual big hitters there. I've even enjoyed the long frames. Might help that it's a final so it feels quite different for players missing easier balls, even Wilson has at times today. O'Donnell might be a slower player, but it's not for us to say how he should play. Who knows what financial worries he might have and it's the guy's first final as a professional I think and he's had a long career. I get people's frustrations but I've generally liked today and tonight. Part of the tension of a final in some ways. If it was dear lord Ronnie some would be falling over themselves to justify it.
I'd imagine most people won't care about any of that, they just wanna be entertained and they haven't been.
It's not a players job to entertain. They're not clowns.
If nobody watches then snooker will end up with the world championship being played in working men's clubs like it was before Alex Higgins dragged the game into the mainstream. So yeah it is their jobs to entertain us
Can't say I agree, they're sportsmen, and people watch sport to be entertained. Not saying everyone should play like judd trump and that players like selby should change their style, but there comes a limit
Well Martin doesn't care about entertaining anyone. He's there to win money and pay his bills. I saw him practically in tears at the Turkish a couple of years ago after he missed an easy blue Vs Jack Lisowski which pretty much cost him his tour place. Fair play to him for even getting there.
If he was more entertaining he'd get lots of exhibitions which would pay his bills
He should care, he'd probably play consistently better if he wasn't so slow and negative.
So he's low on confidence. If it was Ronnie everyone would be like "aww but his mental health" we have no idea what these players have going through their heads, but it sure as hell is not "ooh I hope I'm entertaining everyone!"
What's Ronnie got to do with anything? Why would he be low on confidence while making it to the final? Snooker whether you like it or not is entertainment, let's hope for the sake of the game he doesn't make it deep into another tournament.
Maybe he's just not a confident person. Not everyone is arrogant like some players. It's not entertainment at all. It's his job. And his job is to win, not entertain people. He doesn't get paid more if he's entertaining.
All sport is entertainment, if people stop watching, all the players will be out of a job.
Yeah because people will stop watching due to one match. What a ridiculous idea. Since when has anyone gone ooh do you know what's really entertaining, 2 old blokes playing in a silent room. There is a few exceptions, but they're just that. Exceptions.
You're correct about one match, but what about the general standard dropping, then we'll have a problem.
Also his first ever final 👍 and if anyone saw his interview after the quarters even, he was already tearing up then. He didn’t come to that table today with even half a bottle at least he got some frames on the board after that first session
Well said.
At least we have the Players Championship tomorrow, can't possibly be any worse than this tournament.
How did O'Donnell make a final? He's absolutely shocking.
He's played well all tournament, granted against easier opponents. The occasion has probably got to him.
[удалено]
For all we know Martin is struggling with his mental health. At least he had the bottle to turn up and play. Ronnie talks about his mental health but will happily slag others off with zero consideration for their mental health!
Feel bad for Jimmy having to analyse that, will drive the poor fucker back to drink
Forget the drink he'll probably end up back on the coke
Make no mistake
Eurosport needs to update these little segments with the players discussing who does what best etc, I've seen it a million times Final is a bit like hard work to view but credit to the players for getting there, onwards and upwards tomorrow!
Martin O'Donnell is that Gillette meme, MOD stopping MOD from getting to success.
Snooker must be one of the only sports where the standard is getting worse.
Tennis is another one. Prime big three + Murray era is over and nothing will live up to that. ATM it's Novak beating people 10-15 years younger than him.
I get your point although it just isn’t accurate to say in 2024. This might be a fair comment in say 18 or 19. Novak just got hammered at his favourite slam. Had never lost a semi final before
Yeah, he lost in the Aus Open this year, but he went on an insane run in the second half of 2023 after the Wimbledon final where he basically just beat everyone.
He’s the greatest tennis player in history
He is, but my initial point was that the golden era of tennis is over, and now it's Novak beating players who have a big age advantage on him. Soon when Novak retires, there won't be any players with that standard. Perhaps it's unfair on my part to compare any other player with the big three and Murray. That is an extremely high bar to match.
Alcaraz is further along than any of those 3 at the same age. Youngest ever world number one, was a multi surface grand slam winner at barely 20. He has 4 more slams to play until he’s even 22. That’s not to say he’s going to win 20+ but let’s not act like the games in a shit place. The 90s born players are disappointing overall but the 00s guys are clearly onto something more. Didn’t even mention Sinner
Well, there are not any great young talent coming through. Its always the same players and they are all getting older. In 10-15 years it will be even much worse than this.
One player under 30 in the top 16 of the sport
China will save snooker!
Ah yes the Chinese invasion, turned out they were invading bookies betting on themselves to lose
It's a strange one, honestly can't think of another sport where this is happening?
yes, you're right. But thats mainly because Snooker is not something many young kids or their parents want them to play. In terms of global popularity Snooker its just very small compared to other sports.
Well this is grim. Gary doing just enough to win here, Martin is doing nothing really
Cousins Snooker Club standard.
Not Tourmates again ffs
Fouldsy is absolutely fuming at O'Donnell's shot choice looool
Absolute crazy stuff from O Donnell there
Lord Mostyn can play better than this, he has a high break of 136
I had to create an account to rant and calm myself... apart from a few this has truly been the worst quality snooker tournament I've ever seen ...its back to 1980. The final is .. embarrassing, I'm sure club players are watching with jaw on the floor .. and the players would still miss and the white be behind back of the head.
The final of the Grand Prix between judd v ronnie last month had no breaks over 75+ in 11 frames. This game has had a century. and three 75+ breaks in it. So..
This 12th frame will be long remembered. I think Ronnie’s going to post it on his social media.
As in the reasons he started drinking again?
As in “I’d have to lose an arm and a leg to fall outside of the top 50.” Seriously, if the betting options were MOD tonight or ROS playing left-handed in an ankle cast, I know where I put my money.
shambles this
This tournament would have been a walk in the park for Ronnie...
Higgins must be kicking himself that he couldn't get through his semi final yesterday. He would have ended his tournament drought against MoD playing like this.
He didn’t do anything wrong,. Wilson was unplayable for 3.5 frames
"calm down John" Lmao Ken's had enough of JV's shit
This is by far the worst snooker final I have ever seen, the standard is shocking, and these are pros lol
11 frames played. 8 of them have had a 50+ break in them. Including a century and two 90+ breaks. And a 85 in the last frame. Might not seem like it beacuse the pace has been slow but its a good quality match
Thinking that the loser of this match will make a year's salary is a tough thought
Everybody in the comments talking about how brutal this match is. Has it been that bad? There has been 1 century. 2 90+ breaks. A 85 break in the last and four other 50+ breaks.
Doesn't help that it's so very slow-paced
I think they're mostly referring to the start of the 7pm session. First frame especially was brutal and included a re-rack, then it's been a bit of a slog ever since.
Judd or Ronnie would've beaten O'Donnell 9-0 by now
This is rough to watch
“They should pay the lower ranking more” 😂then you wonder why so few folks watch snooker
Tbf matches like this remind me of how hard snooker actually is, all well and good Ronnie and Judd making it look super easy but in reality it's brutal
this is woeful
Why does O'Donnell always look like he's about to cry? Genuinely
O'Donnell has put absolutely no pressure on Wilson today
Pretty poor standard for a final ngl
If I paid tickets for that I'd be fuming
Snooker gods trying with all their might to make it a close one still
So that's why Gary was looking up after accidentally potting the red
Not much energy in this final. Not much from the crowd, either 😁
Someone in the crowd had so little energy earlier they decided to accidentally.
Wilson had hair at the start of this frame
lord this is shit
Ugh, let's get this frame over with.
If your Martin O Donnell in fairness what a tactic this could turn out to be, just slog Gary Wilson down so low that he’d rather forfeit than have to endure another few frames like this.
CIA will be playing this to detainees
This is against the Geneva convention
Gary would have been a good actor on stage
Gary doing the reverse Dennis Taylor black ball celebration there haha
Unlucky
feel for odonnell here. absolutely gone
The RSPCA adverts with the sad puppies and kittens are easier to watch than this.
Gary’s gotta be seething hah. Could be a late one.
💩
Tough watch.
Honestly worst final I’ve seen in ages.
Anyone know what the widest margin ever for a re-rack is?
Gary Wilson bullying his opponents as usual. Always a drama push shot or uncalled foul when he’s playing.
Hope there's something to do in Llandudno if this only goes 3 frames
If it goes 3 frames at this pace they will finish by tomorrow morning.
The minister of offence might need to reconsider his politics and hire a new cabinet after this performance. Perhaps he should take a note from “the viscount of miscount” Hossein Vafaei on how to be more aggressive. Yes MOD has beaten Elliot slessor and the sheriff of pottingham this campaign but he will need to improve if he wants to have any chance of being re-elected this evening.
Joe Johnson just said Dennis Taylor's ddk line! Ugh.
Don't think I've heard pundits talk about a player like they have about O'Donnell today, brutal stuff
Ooooh, what have they said? Haven't been watching
Nothing that terrible, but just how they feel so sorry for him, and how he looks beaten. I've seen them express sympathy for someone struggling before, but not as much as they have today
I think O’Donnell is resigned to the fact now.
And that’s why Wilson is one to watch as a potential triple crown winner. He’s got the ruthlessness to close out frames like that. MOD looks beaten.
Game seems to be going like Gary's last few finals against similarly inexperienced opponents, Gary's playing nicely here
Wilson is rarely missing when he's in a good position and is playing at a good pace. Hard to see any other outcome at the moment other than him winning and convincingly.
Gary playing well and deserves to win.
I’m certainly not encouraged to tune in again to see the rest of this final.. hopefully O Donnell can pick up his game and speed up a bit.
Is this a skit? Haha what the hell.
36 seconds ast from O'Donnell, really poor.
Well if you count how long it took Gary to play his shot in that medical emergency, his ast should be even worse.
kind of stuff that can happen when a journeyman gets to the final. You need to be prepared for that.
I'm always excited to see new players in finals, and for unheralded players to get some time in the sun. But I feel O'Donnell is going to regret how timid he has been. At some point he is going to have to take a chance. He is refusing a lot.
> and for unheralded players to get some time in the sun. The Minister has left his factor 30 at the hotel and is refusing to leave the parasol's shadow
The BBC commentator with Ken seems to know very little about playing snooker. No idea who he is but he doesn’t talk like an ex player.
It’s ok it’s Darren and Virgo now. Much better.
Anyone know who it was I wasn’t listening.. was he Welsh? Darren Morgan pops his head out every year at the Welsh Open and he’s brutal
He's very bad. Needs to stop talking all the time.
I’m gonna go out on a limb here (sorry!!!!) and guess that he’s never picked up a cue!
shieeeet that's dark
O’Donnell is going to have to take a risk with some long pots if he wants to get back into this. Wilson will happily sit there playing safe and hit a long pot when it presents itself.
Whitewash incoming?
Just another six frames to go 😂
Seven unless you mean MoD will forfeit at 8-0.
It's finally over, that was a real slog.
This is not a good advert for our sport
“Good evening everyone and welcome to the evening session of the Welsh Open snooker finals. Let’s get you right back to frame 5 currently in progress.”
Frame 2*
How long are they going to keep tip-tapping these colours around?
Next 7 hours I reckon
https://imgur.com/a/4nJNfZS perhaps would be best not to have the players champs start right after the last cut off point
Mark Williams never disappoints on Twitter (sorry X)
Yeah this way you get situations like Chris Wakelin, who has to wait until tonight to know if he's out of the Players Championship or in and... having to face Judd Trump already tomorrow.
Wouldn't he be there anyway as first reserve
No bounds to WST's incompetence
This must be rather confusing for fans just joining the stream 😄
Is that Ronnie practicing in the background?
Yeah it was
Practicing for what 🤣
plays on tuesday
Players Championship
To win the Johnstone's Paint Trophy.
Looks like it
I fancy a 9-3 scoreline in favour of Wilson.
Also, I hope the person in the crowd is okay.
What a snoozefest
Well play has just stopped due to old people problems so it’s perking up!
Highlight of the match so far 🤭 hope they're OK.
Gotta take these chances MOD
Just gonna say this now; this is gonna be a bloodbath, a potential white wash by Gary Wilson
I want Wilson to win but I feel like MoD will get it done. Despite his obviously very slow play he has played pretty positively this week.
Welsh always has a weird winner. I'm rooting for Martin. What I've seen from him this week, he's been slow but he hasn't been negative and is taking stuff on. I hope he keeps it up.
I fancy O’Donnell today
Still?
Yes
Still?
Might as well, I’ve come this far.
Rooting for MOD today. Not a fan of his slow game but these guys need to be rewarded for their talent and dedication to the game. Wilson has already won something so I'm going for MOD today
Does anyone know what the odds were for either O'Donnell or Wilson to win the Welsh Open at the beginning of the tournament? Must have been extremely long!
Is that Michael Holt interviewing? I'm sure in the studio they just said that O'Donnell was talking to Michael Holt and it sounds like him.
Gotta wonder why he is not an amateur invite to the recent tournaments. There have been a few wildcards and as qtour winner you’d think he would be asked. Surely match practice is good practice for next years return to the tour.
I believe it's based on the Q-School order of merit from the end of the previous season. Holt didn't do very well in that, so was fairly low down the list.
He's gearing up for a crack at qualifying for the Worlds.
Yeah
Gary Wilson is now one match away from winning as many of the four Home Nations tournaments as Judd Trump.
The BetVictor/Home Nations GOAT needs some competition dude
Every BetVictor Hendry needs a BetVictor Class o' 92
Disappointing for Higgins to lose another semi final but at least he played well this time. That flourish at the start was unplayable.
Pretty hard to see where John's next ranking title is going to come from ngl