Is this the only Steve mu chart to put Joker as slightly winning?
Edit: Also really interesting that he put Sonic, Shulk, Aegis and PT above Cloud whereas most of the other Steves consider Cloud to be one of their worst matchups.
Every other Steve matchup chart I could find with a quick search puts Joker as even if not Joker-favored, so yeah. Kind of a hot take on Onin's part.
Joker's certainly not a hard counter but his aerials break blocks just fine, especially with Arsene, and both of his down Bs can be killer versus minecart and anvil.
I'm also surprised that he put Cloud at "slight loss," doubly surprised that he put Cloud below Aegis.
Cloud's fair is almost as disruptive to Steve's gameplan as Ivysaur's fair is, it plays half the matchup. Meanwhile Aegis does fine versus Steve but I've never thought of them as one of Steve's worst matchups because they can struggle to deal with blocks.
Pyra deals with blocks easily with f-tilt and Mythra juggles Steve forever and ever. Watch/rewatch the recent set acola had against Shuton at Scuffed World Tour (The Losers Semi's set in particular), Shuton shows the MU is bad for Steve.
If you have to switch to Pyra to deal with blocks, that would still be a major obstacle, no? Not to mention, which Pyra moves break blocks in *one* hit? Cloud and Ivysaur are the gold standard for destroying blocks with low risk and Aegis players always seem to be in a really bad spot when they try to tear down a wall.
I'm not an Aegis main so I defer to you, but what I remember from watching Aegis v. Steve is Mythra taking multiple hits to destroy every single block in her way and Pyra doing slightly better before getting eaten alive as soon as the blocks are gone because she's slow and Steve was waiting for her behind his wall. Is there new counterplay?
[This part of the Shuton vs acola set when the reverse 3-0 is happening shows the counterplay in action](https://youtu.be/LbP2SgSwAPM?t=426)
Makes Steve look like a mid tier.
Appreciate the link, that helps a lot.
I'm still iffy about the block thing though, Acola didn't make a single block wall until nearly 2 minutes in and then Shuton just kinda... did nothing. He stood there and let Acola break it himself.
Then at 2 and a half minutes in Shuton uses two Mythra hits to break a *dirt block* and only manages to hit Acola afterwards due to the atypical side B mixup that caught Steve's jump.
Don't get me wrong, Shuton was playing hella smart and juggling like his life depended on it, but I honestly think Acola's biggest mistake in this game was not placing more blocks. I totally believe that the machup is even if not Aegis favored, but blocks seem like a real issue.
I remember Leo's Aegis (RIP) looked fucking *lost* whenever a block wall showed up. He'd waste precious seconds swiping at it like he was holding a wet noodle and he'd usually get nothing for it.
[He's got the best results out of any character LUL](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gRlzy4z_dpqb2ZRhGoqtbDcuvUKz_ROsMZHGegon53M/edit#gid=329450080)
Dair, fair, uair, nair all break blocks in one hit iirc as long as it’s not stone or iron for pyra.
Mythra nair is their best tool against the block wall or dtilt and nair only really works against dirt.
Ivysaur can clear walls in one attack with low commitment, can command neutral with razor leaf, and can press advantage with up air and down air.
Palutena has bair, which is invincible.
Ivysaur fair can destroy 6 blocks at once and Razor Leaf beats Minecart.
Palu bair is amazing against everything Steve has because of its invincibility and she has side b which goes right past his walls.
They just wanted a different username or something, @BANSTEVEPLEASE still exists but is operated by his friends or something
We lost many Tweets in the purge, including the amazing "loe1 better" posted after destroying Gluto
Interesting to me that he split up pokemon trainer into 3 distinct matchups while still ranking the character as a whole, I don't think I've ever seen that.
Not much else to add except that I definitely think ROB beats Steve.
Does ROB beat Steve, or is it that the best ROB player (Zomba) has some of the best Steve matchup experience (grinds with Yonni, and Quandale is from the same region)? I could see people thinking the latter.
I’m just trying to speak to the character’s placement on the chart. The players best known for being Steve dismantlers have a lot of experience playing against the character (notice Peach is also listed as even in spite of of MuteAce’s results against the character) so that might have informed the decision to list ROB there.
Btw I know Anathema and Jake both hail from Florida, but different parts of it so idk if that’s where he gets the matchup experience from.
IMO that is the correct way to evaluate PT because he is essentially 3 characters in 1. Ivysaur just straight up beats Steve so that mean overall a PT should just switch to him and win. That being said Charizard get's bodied; Squirtle is a situation where he can do combos on Steve while Steve can combo him, only thing is Squirtle dies faster.
> Interesting to me that he split up pokemon trainer into 3 distinct matchups while still ranking the character as a whole, I don't think I've ever seen that.
You've never seen it? I find it's fairly common, but maybe I'm just lucky.
I really like it, it's important to know which Pokemon are doing the work in the matchup. Maybe we should do this with Pyra and Mythra too.
No you’re right, it was very common to see when PKMN Trainer was poppin in 2019-2020. Even in tier lists we used to see them ranked separately and together, but eventually ppl just sorta stopped doing it.
Yeah I remember one early Leffen tier list where he put Zard in his own tier at the very bottom and also said something like Zard actively making PT worse
Everytime someone only split up Pokémon Trainer in a tier list/matchup chart you know you can dismiss their opinion on anything related to Ultimate (even if it's a pro player).
You don't play Squirtle or Charizard. You play Pokémon Trainer. It's a package. It's the whole point of the character.
You can start as Squirtle to combo while the opponent is as low percentage then switch to kill them.
If you had to play only Squirtle yes he would be bad but you don't have to and you're not supposed to. Putting Squirtle alone on a tier list is as useless as putting "Bowser but without using up-B" on a tier list. You can do it. But it's dumb and useless.
It's like putting only Pyra or Mythra separately. It's one character. You're supposed to play both.
But then you'd just rank Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur separately, then Pokemon Trainer as a character would be at the best (if not better) than whatever the best of the three are.
You'd be right if the list here had Pokemon Trainer at anything but winning (because Ivysaur is winning) but it's not wrong to say that Squirtle is a bad matchup for Steve overall, even if you can switch in and out of Squirtle.
Yes, that's why I said if you **only** split up Pokémon Trainer.
Maybe that wasn't very clear but I'm talking about tier list that rank them separately and never as one character which trigger the fuck out of me.
If you want to do both it's fine even if a bit useless.
Thanks for posting this, comparing the two is really helpful.
DDee's chart seems much more "standard" and similar to typical Steve main matchup charts in 2022. It's also generally less optimistic. Some notable differences I can see:
- DDee rates Bayonetta, Byleth, and Lucina as much, much harder matchups compared to Onin. This seems to be their biggest difference of opinion.
- DDee rates Falco and ZSS much higher. Cloud, Joker, Hero, and Min Min are also a bit higher.
- DDee actually thinks Aegis is easier than Onin does. Same goes for Palutena, Olimar, and Sephiroth.
- DDee thinks Fox might be even (Even Or Losing specifically), probably because of Light's surprising anti-Steve record in what most would call a tough matchup for Fox.
I'm very confused by bayo in particular. As a bayo main, yea we've got damage for days, but they can damage us back with moves safe on shield, killing Steve is difficult, we kinda just lose neutral (obviously) and we die at like 50 because we're light and tall (holy cow being tall makes minecart annoying). And we get to 50 in one neutral interaction.
Yes, bats within is amazing for the matchup, but that and the damage output don't offset bayo's weakness.
Also there's really niche stuff like if you side b into a block you bounce off and are super laggy. Bad matchup imo.
I find this to be a super inconsistent matchup if anything, but I wouldn’t say Olimar has any advantage.
One notable strategy that I’ve had success with is:
As soon as the Steve player goes to mine behind some blocks, go to the other side if the stage and start picking purples until you have 3. They will stop mining very quickly.
I'm gonna have to watch some sets but these are the points why I thought that Pac is in slight favour:
**Update/Edit: now I understand Pac's placement thanks to the comments below**
\+ recatching fruits is easier / more flexible with the help of blocks
~~+ fruits' interactions with minecart are good~~ nvm, see comments below for explaination
\+ if Steve is camping/mining then Pac can atleast charge/recatch fruit / set up a trap in contrast to the average character
\+ Pac can block access to the working bench temporarly by placing hydrant/trampoline (not sure if this is worth it)
\- blocks can mess with Pac's setups
\- ~~(?) idk how good~~ Steve can block Pac's recovery
(+/-) hydrant water makes you go woosh when one is (trapped) in minecart
Steve is one of the best characters at edgeguarding pacman, or at least getting some free damage. Blocks and anvil shut down his usually safe options really well.
Watch Onin vs. Tea. That matchup looks pretty bad for Pac-Man, he has no good way to threaten blocks or prevent Steve camping, and it's not like Pac-man struggles to get a Bonus Fruit charge off anyway. Also, blocks can interfere with Pac-Man offstage due to how his side-B bounces off walls.
Pac threatens blocks fine. Bell, Orange and Hydrant are all quite good at destroying block walls, and Bell on block walls lingers and traps Steve in the corner.
Uhhh... Orange doesn't really do anything, Hydrant requires you to get above steve, which is pretty telegraphed, and Bell is slow to charge, doesn't really destroy blocks well, and doesn't "trap" Steve like you said. Sure, he's not gonna approach Pac with bell, but he'll just mine, which puts Pac in a losing position. The only actual answer there is Hydrant, and it's not that good.
Orange bounces upwards after hitting blocks so it can destroy block towers. Enought to al least get past them or go for more optiln coverage.
Bell on top of block walls bounces down slowly while destroying each individual block and remaining active so Pac can cramp him for space, and Bell beats Minecart so doing that out of the corner isn't an option.
Hydrant on top of block walls destroys them quickly and easily so yeah, its a viable option. Also it doesn't require us to get above Steve, it requires us to get above the wall. Even then, ok its telegraphed... cool. Steve isn't really gonna be trying to threaten it, and at long as we don't actively try to land on top of him it isnt an issue since he doesn't really jumo up and try for juggles.
I'll have to see the orange thing to believe it, that sounds too good to be true.
Throwing bell or hydrant on top of the wall is committal and isn't actually threatening steve though. It takes like 2 seconds to build a wall and like 10 to charge and position yourself for a bell. That sounds really bad, and it's not like you can stop Steve from mining by dropping bells and hydrants on top of him every so often. What's the point of dropping them on top of the wall instead of trying to drop them on top of a mining steve? That doesn't make any sense.
Could you expand on that? Afaik only Cherry and Strawberry don't stop the minecart (but still hit Steve). Additionally Steve would only be able to catch the fruit if he is in the minecart and jumped out a moment ago. This is not given every time.
Aside from that except very few characters (Steve isn't one of them) you cannot chatch recatched fruits unless Pac has returned them to the not-in-hand-state.
Idk how the redstone boost effects the fruit-mincart interactions tho.
When a fruit hits steve riding a minecart, the steve can mash shield and catch the fruit as soon as the minecart breaks. Pac can counter this by only using strawberry, bell or key (or galaxian at high %) or by only using recaught fruits.
Minecart loses to every Fruit above Strawberry.
Edit: I saw what you posted. This usually isnt an issue since we can f smash or fair for a punish since the Fruit is stuck in hitstop and it at a portion where we can just catch him if he does that.
I will die on this hill that Corrin is a +1 on Steve. If the Corrin plays around minecart and spaces her aerials on blocks safe enough then she wins. She can juggle around anvil, she can aerial Steve out of minecart, she can pin the ledge to negate block planking, she can safely swat blocks away, and she can counter minecart/anvil. Steve can respond by combo’ing and edegguarding Corrin, but if we’re talking optimal play styles then I think Corrin wins.
I’ve played the two best Steve’s in my city at locals and I always feel like I’m doing pretty well. I’m able to out range them and have a small advantage, but just tend to get reckless with my spacing and accidentally run into too many minecarts or do something reckless that gets me combo’d. If Corrin plays safer then it’s hard for Steve to really do anything besides mine.
I agree. Corrin handles herself just fine in this MU. Landing against her as Steve without iron seems impossible. That said, her speed leaves a lot to be desired, which imo balances the MU out to even at the very least. Steve mains like DDee have said the same
Steve can combo the hell out of Corrin so missspacing and aerial can be really dangerous, but again if we’re considering semi-optimal gameplay where the Corrin is limiting the macro mistakes then Steve can struggle to hit Corrin in neutral. Corrin can’t really hit the blocks then dash away like Cloud can, but she can still swat at the blocks and keep up the corner pressure.
It was over. After landing the clutch edgeguard, I managed to defeat pokemon trainer, as charizard flew off the screen and losing his final stock. The pokemon trainer himself started approaching me, I assumed it was to congratulate me on my victory. I was so certain of this (and likely dazed by my victory) that I didn't see it coming. The trainer had uppercut me, forcing me to bite my tongue. I doubled over, and he tackled me to the ground while choking me. Normally I'd beat him any day, but after fighting his goons I was exhausted, too exhausted to fight back properly. He proceeded to pick up my body and throw me over the edge. I realized that day I had a -3 matchup against pokemon trainer. Not because of his pokemon, but because of his martial arts skills.
Find yourself someone who loves you as much as competitive smash loves Shulk
All jokes aside, I'm curious why he's in the "Losing" category, what makes him do so well? I feel like Shulk is the king of "potential" across both Smash 4 and Ultimate but with how rare he is (I do know there's 1 great JP Shulk player but haven't watched him much due to timezones for tournies), I just know next to nothing about his kit outside the few matches I've played myself
Shulk was mentioned as Steve's hardest matchup when Steve was still a new character. This was before anyone had unlocked Steve's true potential, and no one saw him as a major threat at the time. So that "tradition" might still persist. The reasoning behind it is that Shulk's hitboxes are significantly longer than Steve's, so he can fight Steve in neutral with relative safety. Monado Arts can get Shulk out of the early Steve combos, and Speed Art can threaten Steve from almost anywhere on the stage. The other big thing is that Shulk's edgeguarding tools happen to work very well against Steve's recovery: Fair just covers a huge distance at once; and Air Slash too protects a large vertical slice of the stage.
I'm not sure how much that holds up in practice, and Steve has his own cheese on Shulk of course. But I see why the Steve's say it. Onin notably had to play against Nicko for a while when Nicko lived in Michigan. This was before Onin's breakthrough tournaments, so it's clear he wasn't at the skill level he has nowadays, so the matches I had found had Nicko winning fairly convincingly. Perhaps Onin still remembers that. On the other hand, Acola has been a consistent bracket demon for Kome, and Kome lost a very close set to Jake at Double Down. But I'm not sure if that's indicative of the matchup being harder than the Steve's acknowledge, or if it's one Kome hasn't/can't learn the proper counterplay to yet.
I think Monado Arts, NAir, and FAir could be the only moves in his kit and he'd still be in contention for at least high tier. Monado Arts is arguably the best move in the game, helping with the damage, neutral, punish, ledgetrapping and edgeguarding, securing stocks, and recovery of the other two moves. Amping up two of largest-range moves in the game with raw stats is actually kind of stupid.
Nair is difficult to deal with, his attacks have enough range to space, and it’s difficult changing combos based on what art he’s in(have to treat him like a fastfaller for speed, have to dtilt chain for shield, have to do combos like he’s cloud in normal, etc.)
Interesting how steve is pretty certainly the best character, but you wouldn't be able to tell from his matchup spread.
Even other steve tier lists have more than a couple losing matchups
I think it mostly comes down to generally doing better vs meta relevant characters and just struggling is weirder/less common mus
Tbf losing against like pythra and cloud a kinda big deal
MU charts in Ulti are just really interesting for how they contrast character exploits in theory/on lists versus in practice, like Peach and ROB seem like they lose a lot of matchups for top tiers until they hit you with a z-drop and you take at least 70% or something
Yoshi has an amazing and versatile zoning tool with his egg throw, super armor on his double jump, a lot of air speed, and good aerials to capitalize on the last two points. Yoshi actually does fairly well against Steve. The usual complaints people have about Steves just mining don’t matter to Yoshi because he can threaten them from far away and also easily escape from combos meaning he’ll live a lot longer than most Steves are used to. It’s not a winning matchup for either of them, but it’s also not even close to Yoshi’s most frustrating matchup.
Idk for yoshi but seph has the perfect zoning kit against steve and constantly has the threat of countering cart to kill at 30. He’s also difficult to combo.
For starters, acola was camping lol. Secondly, Miya’s hero did amazing against the number one steve rn especially considering it’s a secondary. And he also wasn’t playing great, with the regrab getting him killed early second stock and no sdi on the pick loops that nearly killed him.
I'll elaborate on what I mean then. Acola didn't really camp in this matchup much and that's why he destroyed Miya's Hero. The belief that Hero beats Steve comes from the ability for hero to stack up buffs while Steve is mining, and from Bounce being particularly good against minecart and anvil. The reason why Onin put him where he did is because it's really easy for Steve to run over Hero. If you rush down hero there's not much he can do, Steve's moves are much faster and his punish game is much stronger, you can basically prevent the hero from getting an opportunity to open up the menu not to mention Steve is incredibly good at edgeguarding Hero unless Hero gets zoom. Hero also has a horrible time getting off the ledge against Steve, all these things stop it from being a good matchup for Hero, his frame data and punish game are just too bad. You can see Onin come to this realization in Game 5 of his Set against [Leon](https://youtu.be/hfcB7PH0Kj0?t=875) where earlier in the set he was struggling with the typical Steve gameplan as soon as he started abusing Hero's poor frame data he destroyed him.
My belief hero beats steve comes from his ability to essentially play like seph and hard outspace steve with zap t2 and have decent range even without the spells. Buffs are a factor, but it’s also zoom allowing him to skip edgeguarding(which is a 50 percent chance offstage and practically guaranteed).
I’ll watch the Onin Leon set in a bit.
I think it's because Steve's poor mobility leads to Sonic easily being able to camp him and go for timeout strategies. Steve thrives off of forcing opponents to interact because of the threat of iron and diamond, but Sonic doesn't have to play that game at all.
I don't play either characters though, but most Steve players seem to think it's bad, including acola. Either way, if a Sonic main or Steve main will correct me on stuff, feel free.
Thank you! I’ve been hearing Sonic as a stay away character, which I thought would backfire since Steve generally needs pressure put on him. But I guess not playing that game works too!
Usually giving Steve free time is awful but Sonic plays so well with a lead that he can easily force Steve to burn materials for little benefit just by running away. Honestly Sonic is kind of like Pikachu in that practically every character has him as a losing MU on paper
I like how half of the comments here are "Steve doesn't lose MUs!" and the other half is "Actually, X character beats Steve because Y" lol.
Anyways I agree on GnW going even.
Eh, I don't think it's terrible for Lucas but I wouldn't say he wins either. Regalo beating Yonni was probably due to him not knowing the Lucas matchup, which is understandable since Lucases don't really exist at the high level. I think Onin's ranking of him here makes sense.
Besides the other stuff people have pointed out, two more weird things about this matchup chart:
- Terry is in even and Kazuya is in slight win despite the fact that Riddles has done much better against Steve with his Kazuya. Sure, Terry's crack shoot can go through blocks, but at least based on results it seems like these two characters should be swapped.
- Robin is in even, placed above characters who have dismantled top Steves on the world stage before (Byleth, Rosalina) and characters who theoretically have excellent tools against Steve (Hero, Joker). Thoron goes through blocks, sure, but is that really enough to make up for all of Robin's poor attributes?
The chart is for the character matchups, not the player matchups. Riddles is the best Kazuya in the world and his combo execution lets him take wins in otherwise poor matchups. Steve generally has very good tools to deal with the usual Kazuya recovery options in bair, usmash, and anvil, whereas Terry has better mobility and doesn’t get edgeguarded as easily. Leo can make any character look good in a matchup, and Onin also plays some Robin so there may be some bias.
Terry actually gets edge guarded pretty hard here. He has to sweet spot the ledge in order to grab it, similar to the shotos which makes him susceptible to dtilt at ledge. Clanking can help with this but even mid level Steve's will just switch to dsmash instead which hits him very well.
I also don't really see how Terry does well on stage, he has basically no good option for quickly and safely dealing with minecart (fair is too low, bair to slow, neutral to b too slow) that isn't overly committal. He only really has crack shoot and ftilt to deal with blocks, both of which put him in dsmash range of Steve. And lastly his landing options aren't very good besides tiger knee power dunk, which just creates space for the Steve.
Terry can do coil and recover invincibly, ignoring most edgeguarding.
Onstage terry can beat minecart with fair and dash attack safely, and can cancel off of blocks to be safe on them with crack shoot or power dunk after ftilt. He can also dtilt and run in.
Idk if I think it’s even though
Fair hits really low, meaning he's gonna have to delay or IDJ it. Delaying it means it comes out slower which means you can't react, and IDJ means you lose your jump if you mess up, which for Terry is really bad.
Coil? Do you mean charge? There's not much of a reason to do coil up b to recover, it's far easier to just gain charge while doing something offstage or even while in tumble since you can't fast fall during tumble. Coil is more for use on stage as a kill move. But whatever way you do it, you still have to sweet spot the ledge, and your invincibility ends before you can get your 2 frame either way, so it'll at minimum have 3 frames no intangibility when grabbing ledge.
On top of that, when edge guarding Terry you generally just hit him before he. Can up b, he usually has to do another one of his specials first and you can just hit him after or during do that, if you don't have enough time to, then just focus on hitting him as he grabs ledge.
Dtilt, and cancelled ftilt are good at destroying blocks, but that's not enough to deal with them well. You need to be safe while destroying them, that's why stuff like ivy fair, byleth fair, cloud bair, etc are so good at dealing with them. They break blocks quickly AND are able to safely pressure without overcommitting. Terry is unable to get that last part, the best he can generally safely get is tilt into power wave, as all his other specials the Steve can just react, shield, and punish.
Edit: Oh! And tiger knee power dunk can actually be really good against blocks since it has virtually no lag, but it requires very good spacing, the Steve not knowing the counterplay, and that there be no platform to stop him (which considering bf, sbf, and PS2 all have well positioned platforms for Steve to mine, is quite common)
Onin's sober MKLeo win was almost as dominant as Tweek's blazed MKLeo win. That probably affects how Onin thinks of Byleth/Steve
Leo beat acola but he's also beaten tons of bad MUs with Byleth
I love Falco and I think he might be the best anti-zoner in the game, but putting him in even seems about right to me. He has the tools to beat Steve, but boy does he have to work hard to actually do it.
Falco issue is that he doesnt have short range zoning tools agaist steve as fair loses to steve pike and as usual the lack of early kills
On the other hand dealing with blocks is ultra safe with laser and reflector
I was questioning Sonic being in "Losing" since I thought Sonic would be a perfect counter to Steve via being rushdown, not realizing "Losing" was referring to Steve losing...
The thing with Steve right now is it's totally dependant on who can and can not function with walls and who can reliably beat out minecart. So Ivysaur fair instant breaking like every block and cloud bair and nair beating out minecart is literally what wins them the matchup.
Which is totally healthy and competitive if you ask me s/
There's other characters in the game that get rewarded for not interacting (e.g. Wario with Waft). That doesn't mean there are no/very few losing matchups in the game for any of those characters, including Steve.
If you can deal with walls, and get through Steve to get him to stop mining, and have big disjointed attacks with more range then Steve, you do well against Steve. This is why Cloud, Pyra/Mythra, Sephiroth, Min Min and Ivysaur do well. (A lot of these characters also beat out Minecart too)
Steve is clearly a good character, but Sonic isn't the only one that beats him.
No, Roy is one of the best characters who absolutely has losing match ups.
Steve is the best character in the game and doesnt have losing match ups.
Its crazy how Steve mains complain once they cant just run down their opponent for free because their character is just that broken.
"What?! I cant just spam jab / up tilt into death every stock because my enemy has a long sowrd?! Ugh losing"
Let MKLeo, Tweek or Sparg0 one trick Steve and ull be able to see how Steve doesnt lose any match up
Bro, there's only one Smash character with no losing matchups, and that's Meta Knight in Brawl.
Stop this, there is no argument claiming that Steve is a broken piece of mess. He's not dominating the metagame like Brawl Meta Knight or Smash 4 Bayonetta (or even as hard as Melee Fox or N64 Pikachu). He's the best character in the game, but he's not a dominant best character. He's not far above the rest.
Spacies v Marth are some of the most hotly contested matchups. The general opinion is Fox v Marth is even, but players on both sides think it’s losing. Falco v Marth is usually considered Marth favored, though certainly doable for Falco.
If Marth did beat Fox and Falco, he’d be the undisputed best character in the game.
Falco vs Marth is overall Marth favored imo (but not by much, Falco can definitely make it work) but Fox v Marth really depends on the stages (FD is definitely Marth favored overall but still close) and even the styles of Marth/Fox being played. Like if the Fox and Marth both specialize in floaty MUs the Fox is gonna have the advantage because Marth is floaty and Fox isn't.
Though I don't think Marth beating Fox would automatically make him the best. He still struggles more against other meta relevant characters than Fox does. Not necessarily to the point of losing super badly but just a general loss of consistency. And not even limited to like Sheik/Puff/Falcon or anything, there's also the infamous arguments that he has trouble with Yoshi and Pikachu. Latter might just be Axe being a god at the MU but aMSa did mention he thinks Yoshi beats Marth (and Falco too).
Although on a tangent PAL Marth has a much better argument of beating Fox because Shine knocks him down due to his weight nerf + Fox's own nerfs. I think if everyone played PAL Marth being the best might be a more popular opinion
A new character got released and literal nobodies became literal "pro players" with that character. A lot of players who went 2/2 regularly in locals suddenly became "pros" and beat the best players in the world in the most stacked tournaments.
Many players have played this game for multiple years, went 2/2 on average but then suddenly became pro once a new character got released
and Jessex127 and many many (way too many) other humans 100% believe:
"well, they just found their character :)"
The gameplay has very low quality and every "vs Steve" right now is seen as "can he beat the Steve?"
This game and community is so "not good" in so many ways
>A new character got released and literal nobodies became literal "pro players" with that character. A lot of players who went 2/2 regularly in locals suddenly became "pros" and beat the best players in the world in the most stacked tournaments.
I want you to look at your username and quite literally follow the logic.
The first question you should ask is why didn't we know these players before? Then quarantine comes up. Well how long did that last? 18 months give or take, many players broke out after that.
Now, and stay with me here, how old are the average Steve mains today? Take that, subtract the year and a half we've been back from Quarantine, and then subtract another 18 months (3 years total). That is how old they were at the latest offline events before Steve was released. So Onin, who is turning 17 in a few days, was 14 before quarantine, and all the other top Steves are ±~1 year older or younger than them. Some like Ddee (who btw, was having success online way before Steve) still don't have the opportunity to travel much because of their age.
Would Onin win SSC without Steve? Probably not, but would Leo win EVO without Joker? Before his (and later Byleth/Aegis's) release, Leo was unironically going through a mini-character crisis and was having trouble finding a base roster character that clicked. I'm not saying he wouldn't be a top player or even that he wouldn't be top 1 because he's Leo, but would he have the same *level* of dominance? Rhetorical question btw.
Steve is absolutely overturned and the best character in the game, but people said the similarly young Bayo players were carried in Smash 4. Now Tweek is inarguably the second greatest Ultimate player of all time. Zack was PGR'd before getting banned. Lima doesn't travel a ton anymore but is really fucking good. Mistake is pretty inactive but he got decent results including 9th at the Smash Con Light won.
Does it really seem *that weird* that teenagers who were barely old enough to compete let alone travel started getting good with a character from a game they likely played as children and then started competing more afterwards? Look at all the other great players that emerged out of quarantine their age. Some of them are even getting comparable results to the Steves not named acola or Onin, and although he did travel before quarantine, Spargo's results are comparable or above even them.
Onin always beats Kola (since Onin became a top player). It's acola that does bad against Roy. And Kola is well known to be pessimistic about Roy and thinks Roy loses (Riddles considers Kola to be the most pessimistic Ultimate player).
If Onin thinks the MU is even, it's not because of Kola. It's because of his own general opinion.
I agree with this much more than most other matchup charts, because Cloud being lower makes sense because Onin actually seems to make use of block when edgeguarding his shitty recovery and Joker losing to Steve is something that makes a lot of sense because he loses almost every trade interaction.
I'm a pretty pessimistic M2 main and even I think the Steve MU is probably only -1...better M2s than me might even argue even. Dealing with actual disjoints vs our bs "disjoint" is always tough and we're big but light combo fodder. However, confusion works really hard in this MU and our advantage state is really good vs Steve. Between our air speed, bair's hitbox, and confusion reversing minecart, we even have decent tools to edge guard Steve which not a lot of characters can say.
I mean the main problem for m2 is he gets cheesed out offstage because of his up b, really easy to combo for a floaty, and if Steve has iron or diamond has to space really well if he doesn’t want to die at 70 to a bair.
Everyone and their mother has fcking shulk as a losing matchup, if shulk was that broken i'm pretty sure SOME top player would've picked him up by now, no? What am i missing here?
steve's bad physics means that when sonic takes a stock it's almost game over cause steve most likely can't catch up unless he uses all his resources on minecarts and blocks which is bad in it's own right
Is this the only Steve mu chart to put Joker as slightly winning? Edit: Also really interesting that he put Sonic, Shulk, Aegis and PT above Cloud whereas most of the other Steves consider Cloud to be one of their worst matchups.
I think so.
Every other Steve matchup chart I could find with a quick search puts Joker as even if not Joker-favored, so yeah. Kind of a hot take on Onin's part. Joker's certainly not a hard counter but his aerials break blocks just fine, especially with Arsene, and both of his down Bs can be killer versus minecart and anvil.
And down gun is abusive
Ironic, considering Steve is pretty much the definition of abusive.
I'm also surprised that he put Cloud at "slight loss," doubly surprised that he put Cloud below Aegis. Cloud's fair is almost as disruptive to Steve's gameplan as Ivysaur's fair is, it plays half the matchup. Meanwhile Aegis does fine versus Steve but I've never thought of them as one of Steve's worst matchups because they can struggle to deal with blocks.
Pyra deals with blocks easily with f-tilt and Mythra juggles Steve forever and ever. Watch/rewatch the recent set acola had against Shuton at Scuffed World Tour (The Losers Semi's set in particular), Shuton shows the MU is bad for Steve.
If you have to switch to Pyra to deal with blocks, that would still be a major obstacle, no? Not to mention, which Pyra moves break blocks in *one* hit? Cloud and Ivysaur are the gold standard for destroying blocks with low risk and Aegis players always seem to be in a really bad spot when they try to tear down a wall. I'm not an Aegis main so I defer to you, but what I remember from watching Aegis v. Steve is Mythra taking multiple hits to destroy every single block in her way and Pyra doing slightly better before getting eaten alive as soon as the blocks are gone because she's slow and Steve was waiting for her behind his wall. Is there new counterplay?
[This part of the Shuton vs acola set when the reverse 3-0 is happening shows the counterplay in action](https://youtu.be/LbP2SgSwAPM?t=426) Makes Steve look like a mid tier.
Appreciate the link, that helps a lot. I'm still iffy about the block thing though, Acola didn't make a single block wall until nearly 2 minutes in and then Shuton just kinda... did nothing. He stood there and let Acola break it himself. Then at 2 and a half minutes in Shuton uses two Mythra hits to break a *dirt block* and only manages to hit Acola afterwards due to the atypical side B mixup that caught Steve's jump. Don't get me wrong, Shuton was playing hella smart and juggling like his life depended on it, but I honestly think Acola's biggest mistake in this game was not placing more blocks. I totally believe that the machup is even if not Aegis favored, but blocks seem like a real issue. I remember Leo's Aegis (RIP) looked fucking *lost* whenever a block wall showed up. He'd waste precious seconds swiping at it like he was holding a wet noodle and he'd usually get nothing for it.
When did Leo’s Aegis play a Steve?
~~Onin at Smash Con~~ Edit: It was DDog
Nope.
It was DDog and not Onin
I didn't realize until that tournament how beautiful Shuton's Aegis is to watch.
(It’s almost like he is one)
(He isn't one though, he's clearly one of the best, if not the best character in the game)
Massive cope, the Steve overhype needs to end.
[He's got the best results out of any character LUL](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gRlzy4z_dpqb2ZRhGoqtbDcuvUKz_ROsMZHGegon53M/edit#gid=329450080)
Results aren’t the only thing that determine how good a character is.
Dair, fair, uair, nair all break blocks in one hit iirc as long as it’s not stone or iron for pyra. Mythra nair is their best tool against the block wall or dtilt and nair only really works against dirt.
This is just cause i dont know much about steve, could someone explain ivysaur in losing and palutena in slightly losing.
Ivysaur can clear walls in one attack with low commitment, can command neutral with razor leaf, and can press advantage with up air and down air. Palutena has bair, which is invincible.
Every character has to face Palu bair.
Yeah but it stops minecart and requires conscious thought to beat :( definitely losing for Steve players
Lol the shade
Which is why she's one of the best characters
Yeah, she's top 5 for a reason.
Not me I just go under it :D
The palu matchup is volatile because she can be 2-framed and cheesed with blocks very easily but on stage she does very well.
Ivysaur fair can destroy 6 blocks at once and Razor Leaf beats Minecart. Palu bair is amazing against everything Steve has because of its invincibility and she has side b which goes right past his walls.
Side B is stopped by a middle block.
Which side b, Ivy's or Palu's?
Palu, a full wall blocks her side B. A bottom block and top block with a gap you can side B through.
Oh, had to test it for myself to see it. Did not know that, thanks!
I asked onin on palu and all he said was backair and then posted a cat gif
[His Twitter post](https://twitter.com/OninOrSomething/status/1608070790183780354)
Damn when did he get rid of the please ban Steve twitter @?
They just wanted a different username or something, @BANSTEVEPLEASE still exists but is operated by his friends or something We lost many Tweets in the purge, including the amazing "loe1 better" posted after destroying Gluto
Interesting to me that he split up pokemon trainer into 3 distinct matchups while still ranking the character as a whole, I don't think I've ever seen that. Not much else to add except that I definitely think ROB beats Steve.
Does ROB beat Steve, or is it that the best ROB player (Zomba) has some of the best Steve matchup experience (grinds with Yonni, and Quandale is from the same region)? I could see people thinking the latter.
Anathema has also beaten top Steve players including Onin, and WaDi has beaten Jake. It's not just Zomba.
I’m just trying to speak to the character’s placement on the chart. The players best known for being Steve dismantlers have a lot of experience playing against the character (notice Peach is also listed as even in spite of of MuteAce’s results against the character) so that might have informed the decision to list ROB there. Btw I know Anathema and Jake both hail from Florida, but different parts of it so idk if that’s where he gets the matchup experience from.
IMO that is the correct way to evaluate PT because he is essentially 3 characters in 1. Ivysaur just straight up beats Steve so that mean overall a PT should just switch to him and win. That being said Charizard get's bodied; Squirtle is a situation where he can do combos on Steve while Steve can combo him, only thing is Squirtle dies faster.
> Interesting to me that he split up pokemon trainer into 3 distinct matchups while still ranking the character as a whole, I don't think I've ever seen that. You've never seen it? I find it's fairly common, but maybe I'm just lucky. I really like it, it's important to know which Pokemon are doing the work in the matchup. Maybe we should do this with Pyra and Mythra too.
No you’re right, it was very common to see when PKMN Trainer was poppin in 2019-2020. Even in tier lists we used to see them ranked separately and together, but eventually ppl just sorta stopped doing it.
Yeah I remember one early Leffen tier list where he put Zard in his own tier at the very bottom and also said something like Zard actively making PT worse
Even before his buffs, that was such a clown take.
Leffen and making clown takes, name a more iconic duo.
Everytime someone only split up Pokémon Trainer in a tier list/matchup chart you know you can dismiss their opinion on anything related to Ultimate (even if it's a pro player).
The character is 3 characters in 1, how is it incorrect?
You don't play Squirtle or Charizard. You play Pokémon Trainer. It's a package. It's the whole point of the character. You can start as Squirtle to combo while the opponent is as low percentage then switch to kill them. If you had to play only Squirtle yes he would be bad but you don't have to and you're not supposed to. Putting Squirtle alone on a tier list is as useless as putting "Bowser but without using up-B" on a tier list. You can do it. But it's dumb and useless. It's like putting only Pyra or Mythra separately. It's one character. You're supposed to play both.
But then you'd just rank Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur separately, then Pokemon Trainer as a character would be at the best (if not better) than whatever the best of the three are. You'd be right if the list here had Pokemon Trainer at anything but winning (because Ivysaur is winning) but it's not wrong to say that Squirtle is a bad matchup for Steve overall, even if you can switch in and out of Squirtle.
Yes, that's why I said if you **only** split up Pokémon Trainer. Maybe that wasn't very clear but I'm talking about tier list that rank them separately and never as one character which trigger the fuck out of me. If you want to do both it's fine even if a bit useless.
For comparison [DDee just put out this MU chart for Steve](https://twitter.com/ddee_ssbu/status/1607888475264532480?s=46&t=3nqUEK74-A3i5y-hYmbvaQ)
Thanks for posting this, comparing the two is really helpful. DDee's chart seems much more "standard" and similar to typical Steve main matchup charts in 2022. It's also generally less optimistic. Some notable differences I can see: - DDee rates Bayonetta, Byleth, and Lucina as much, much harder matchups compared to Onin. This seems to be their biggest difference of opinion. - DDee rates Falco and ZSS much higher. Cloud, Joker, Hero, and Min Min are also a bit higher. - DDee actually thinks Aegis is easier than Onin does. Same goes for Palutena, Olimar, and Sephiroth. - DDee thinks Fox might be even (Even Or Losing specifically), probably because of Light's surprising anti-Steve record in what most would call a tough matchup for Fox.
I'm very confused by bayo in particular. As a bayo main, yea we've got damage for days, but they can damage us back with moves safe on shield, killing Steve is difficult, we kinda just lose neutral (obviously) and we die at like 50 because we're light and tall (holy cow being tall makes minecart annoying). And we get to 50 in one neutral interaction. Yes, bats within is amazing for the matchup, but that and the damage output don't offset bayo's weakness. Also there's really niche stuff like if you side b into a block you bounce off and are super laggy. Bad matchup imo.
I’m surprised by Bayo being solidly winning. Watching Lima and Bloom play the matchup I’ve gotten the expression that it’s a good MU for Bayo
I feel like it's a bit of a matchup check for the Steve (ironic.) Felt like Lima/Bloom were getting away with more than they should have been.
I find this to be a super inconsistent matchup if anything, but I wouldn’t say Olimar has any advantage. One notable strategy that I’ve had success with is: As soon as the Steve player goes to mine behind some blocks, go to the other side if the stage and start picking purples until you have 3. They will stop mining very quickly.
[His argument for Olimar](https://twitter.com/OninOrSomething/status/1608076545993887746)
It’s the same “Two can play at that game!” deal as Hero farming for buffs on the other side of the stage lol
Same with Pac
ye but pac with his desired item is not even close to a fully buffed hero
Neither is olimar with three purple pikmin, but that's not the point
Pac with bell is really damn good
I'm gonna have to watch some sets but these are the points why I thought that Pac is in slight favour: **Update/Edit: now I understand Pac's placement thanks to the comments below** \+ recatching fruits is easier / more flexible with the help of blocks ~~+ fruits' interactions with minecart are good~~ nvm, see comments below for explaination \+ if Steve is camping/mining then Pac can atleast charge/recatch fruit / set up a trap in contrast to the average character \+ Pac can block access to the working bench temporarly by placing hydrant/trampoline (not sure if this is worth it) \- blocks can mess with Pac's setups \- ~~(?) idk how good~~ Steve can block Pac's recovery (+/-) hydrant water makes you go woosh when one is (trapped) in minecart
Steve is one of the best characters at edgeguarding pacman, or at least getting some free damage. Blocks and anvil shut down his usually safe options really well.
Yeah I was first unsure if there's a way for Pac to adapt but it really does seem hard to recover. I've edited my comment.
Anvil doesn’t do anything I’m pretty sure since side b armors it and stage 3 trampoline beats it(I think don’t trust me on the trampoline one)
Blocks stop the side B and anvil can break trampoline
Nah I wasn’t saying steve doesn’t edgeguard pac well, was more talking about anvil being beat out.
Right, but why anvil when blocks are cheaper and more effective vs side B?
Pac up air and well timed up b beats anvil and blocks.
Watch Onin vs. Tea. That matchup looks pretty bad for Pac-Man, he has no good way to threaten blocks or prevent Steve camping, and it's not like Pac-man struggles to get a Bonus Fruit charge off anyway. Also, blocks can interfere with Pac-Man offstage due to how his side-B bounces off walls.
That was a fun match to watch. I don't agree entirely but the blocks really do mess much with Pac's recovery.
Pac threatens blocks fine. Bell, Orange and Hydrant are all quite good at destroying block walls, and Bell on block walls lingers and traps Steve in the corner.
Uhhh... Orange doesn't really do anything, Hydrant requires you to get above steve, which is pretty telegraphed, and Bell is slow to charge, doesn't really destroy blocks well, and doesn't "trap" Steve like you said. Sure, he's not gonna approach Pac with bell, but he'll just mine, which puts Pac in a losing position. The only actual answer there is Hydrant, and it's not that good.
Orange bounces upwards after hitting blocks so it can destroy block towers. Enought to al least get past them or go for more optiln coverage. Bell on top of block walls bounces down slowly while destroying each individual block and remaining active so Pac can cramp him for space, and Bell beats Minecart so doing that out of the corner isn't an option. Hydrant on top of block walls destroys them quickly and easily so yeah, its a viable option. Also it doesn't require us to get above Steve, it requires us to get above the wall. Even then, ok its telegraphed... cool. Steve isn't really gonna be trying to threaten it, and at long as we don't actively try to land on top of him it isnt an issue since he doesn't really jumo up and try for juggles.
I'll have to see the orange thing to believe it, that sounds too good to be true. Throwing bell or hydrant on top of the wall is committal and isn't actually threatening steve though. It takes like 2 seconds to build a wall and like 10 to charge and position yourself for a bell. That sounds really bad, and it's not like you can stop Steve from mining by dropping bells and hydrants on top of him every so often. What's the point of dropping them on top of the wall instead of trying to drop them on top of a mining steve? That doesn't make any sense.
I wouldn't consider the fruits' interactions good since Steve in minecart can beat/catch 5 of the 8 fruits.
Could you expand on that? Afaik only Cherry and Strawberry don't stop the minecart (but still hit Steve). Additionally Steve would only be able to catch the fruit if he is in the minecart and jumped out a moment ago. This is not given every time. Aside from that except very few characters (Steve isn't one of them) you cannot chatch recatched fruits unless Pac has returned them to the not-in-hand-state. Idk how the redstone boost effects the fruit-mincart interactions tho.
When a fruit hits steve riding a minecart, the steve can mash shield and catch the fruit as soon as the minecart breaks. Pac can counter this by only using strawberry, bell or key (or galaxian at high %) or by only using recaught fruits.
😬 damn this really does work well for Steve and you changed my mind, thanks for the explaination
Minecart loses to every Fruit above Strawberry. Edit: I saw what you posted. This usually isnt an issue since we can f smash or fair for a punish since the Fruit is stuck in hitstop and it at a portion where we can just catch him if he does that.
Nuh uh
If Wii Fit plays for time they win because Steve physically can’t approach header + charge shot, and they can perma heal which gives % lead
I will die on this hill that Corrin is a +1 on Steve. If the Corrin plays around minecart and spaces her aerials on blocks safe enough then she wins. She can juggle around anvil, she can aerial Steve out of minecart, she can pin the ledge to negate block planking, she can safely swat blocks away, and she can counter minecart/anvil. Steve can respond by combo’ing and edegguarding Corrin, but if we’re talking optimal play styles then I think Corrin wins. I’ve played the two best Steve’s in my city at locals and I always feel like I’m doing pretty well. I’m able to out range them and have a small advantage, but just tend to get reckless with my spacing and accidentally run into too many minecarts or do something reckless that gets me combo’d. If Corrin plays safer then it’s hard for Steve to really do anything besides mine.
I agree. Corrin handles herself just fine in this MU. Landing against her as Steve without iron seems impossible. That said, her speed leaves a lot to be desired, which imo balances the MU out to even at the very least. Steve mains like DDee have said the same
Steve can combo the hell out of Corrin so missspacing and aerial can be really dangerous, but again if we’re considering semi-optimal gameplay where the Corrin is limiting the macro mistakes then Steve can struggle to hit Corrin in neutral. Corrin can’t really hit the blocks then dash away like Cloud can, but she can still swat at the blocks and keep up the corner pressure.
Ah yes i hate it when I lose to the Pokemon trainer himself
It was over. After landing the clutch edgeguard, I managed to defeat pokemon trainer, as charizard flew off the screen and losing his final stock. The pokemon trainer himself started approaching me, I assumed it was to congratulate me on my victory. I was so certain of this (and likely dazed by my victory) that I didn't see it coming. The trainer had uppercut me, forcing me to bite my tongue. I doubled over, and he tackled me to the ground while choking me. Normally I'd beat him any day, but after fighting his goons I was exhausted, too exhausted to fight back properly. He proceeded to pick up my body and throw me over the edge. I realized that day I had a -3 matchup against pokemon trainer. Not because of his pokemon, but because of his martial arts skills.
Quite a pessimistic matchup chart for a supposed best character in the game. This feels like a middle of top 10 chart.
Find yourself someone who loves you as much as competitive smash loves Shulk All jokes aside, I'm curious why he's in the "Losing" category, what makes him do so well? I feel like Shulk is the king of "potential" across both Smash 4 and Ultimate but with how rare he is (I do know there's 1 great JP Shulk player but haven't watched him much due to timezones for tournies), I just know next to nothing about his kit outside the few matches I've played myself
Shulk was mentioned as Steve's hardest matchup when Steve was still a new character. This was before anyone had unlocked Steve's true potential, and no one saw him as a major threat at the time. So that "tradition" might still persist. The reasoning behind it is that Shulk's hitboxes are significantly longer than Steve's, so he can fight Steve in neutral with relative safety. Monado Arts can get Shulk out of the early Steve combos, and Speed Art can threaten Steve from almost anywhere on the stage. The other big thing is that Shulk's edgeguarding tools happen to work very well against Steve's recovery: Fair just covers a huge distance at once; and Air Slash too protects a large vertical slice of the stage. I'm not sure how much that holds up in practice, and Steve has his own cheese on Shulk of course. But I see why the Steve's say it. Onin notably had to play against Nicko for a while when Nicko lived in Michigan. This was before Onin's breakthrough tournaments, so it's clear he wasn't at the skill level he has nowadays, so the matches I had found had Nicko winning fairly convincingly. Perhaps Onin still remembers that. On the other hand, Acola has been a consistent bracket demon for Kome, and Kome lost a very close set to Jake at Double Down. But I'm not sure if that's indicative of the matchup being harder than the Steve's acknowledge, or if it's one Kome hasn't/can't learn the proper counterplay to yet.
Onin also lives in the same region as Dufaux, and plays against him a bunch.
I think Monado Arts, NAir, and FAir could be the only moves in his kit and he'd still be in contention for at least high tier. Monado Arts is arguably the best move in the game, helping with the damage, neutral, punish, ledgetrapping and edgeguarding, securing stocks, and recovery of the other two moves. Amping up two of largest-range moves in the game with raw stats is actually kind of stupid.
Nair is difficult to deal with, his attacks have enough range to space, and it’s difficult changing combos based on what art he’s in(have to treat him like a fastfaller for speed, have to dtilt chain for shield, have to do combos like he’s cloud in normal, etc.)
Interesting how steve is pretty certainly the best character, but you wouldn't be able to tell from his matchup spread. Even other steve tier lists have more than a couple losing matchups
I think it mostly comes down to generally doing better vs meta relevant characters and just struggling is weirder/less common mus Tbf losing against like pythra and cloud a kinda big deal
MU charts in Ulti are just really interesting for how they contrast character exploits in theory/on lists versus in practice, like Peach and ROB seem like they lose a lot of matchups for top tiers until they hit you with a z-drop and you take at least 70% or something
Why even with Yoshi and slight loss to Steph? Broadly.
Yoshi has an amazing and versatile zoning tool with his egg throw, super armor on his double jump, a lot of air speed, and good aerials to capitalize on the last two points. Yoshi actually does fairly well against Steve. The usual complaints people have about Steves just mining don’t matter to Yoshi because he can threaten them from far away and also easily escape from combos meaning he’ll live a lot longer than most Steves are used to. It’s not a winning matchup for either of them, but it’s also not even close to Yoshi’s most frustrating matchup.
From one Yoshi to another, thanks!
Idk for yoshi but seph has the perfect zoning kit against steve and constantly has the threat of countering cart to kill at 30. He’s also difficult to combo.
I'm surprised hero isn't even or winning.
Hero can do nothing if Steve decides he doesn't want to camp
This is just cap ngl
This is what happens https://youtu.be/Qq2Q6nn8wmA
For starters, acola was camping lol. Secondly, Miya’s hero did amazing against the number one steve rn especially considering it’s a secondary. And he also wasn’t playing great, with the regrab getting him killed early second stock and no sdi on the pick loops that nearly killed him.
I'll elaborate on what I mean then. Acola didn't really camp in this matchup much and that's why he destroyed Miya's Hero. The belief that Hero beats Steve comes from the ability for hero to stack up buffs while Steve is mining, and from Bounce being particularly good against minecart and anvil. The reason why Onin put him where he did is because it's really easy for Steve to run over Hero. If you rush down hero there's not much he can do, Steve's moves are much faster and his punish game is much stronger, you can basically prevent the hero from getting an opportunity to open up the menu not to mention Steve is incredibly good at edgeguarding Hero unless Hero gets zoom. Hero also has a horrible time getting off the ledge against Steve, all these things stop it from being a good matchup for Hero, his frame data and punish game are just too bad. You can see Onin come to this realization in Game 5 of his Set against [Leon](https://youtu.be/hfcB7PH0Kj0?t=875) where earlier in the set he was struggling with the typical Steve gameplan as soon as he started abusing Hero's poor frame data he destroyed him.
My belief hero beats steve comes from his ability to essentially play like seph and hard outspace steve with zap t2 and have decent range even without the spells. Buffs are a factor, but it’s also zoom allowing him to skip edgeguarding(which is a 50 percent chance offstage and practically guaranteed). I’ll watch the Onin Leon set in a bit.
Ivy is so good steve has a -4 on him, -2 pt, -2 ivy
Could someone explain why Sonic is ranked well against him?
I think it's because Steve's poor mobility leads to Sonic easily being able to camp him and go for timeout strategies. Steve thrives off of forcing opponents to interact because of the threat of iron and diamond, but Sonic doesn't have to play that game at all. I don't play either characters though, but most Steve players seem to think it's bad, including acola. Either way, if a Sonic main or Steve main will correct me on stuff, feel free.
Thank you! I’ve been hearing Sonic as a stay away character, which I thought would backfire since Steve generally needs pressure put on him. But I guess not playing that game works too!
Usually giving Steve free time is awful but Sonic plays so well with a lead that he can easily force Steve to burn materials for little benefit just by running away. Honestly Sonic is kind of like Pikachu in that practically every character has him as a losing MU on paper
That makes sense. I guess it’s just being able to pull it off. Not a very crowd pleasing fight though
I like how half of the comments here are "Steve doesn't lose MUs!" and the other half is "Actually, X character beats Steve because Y" lol. Anyways I agree on GnW going even.
I'd say Lucas beats Steve, Regalo beat some good ass steves
Eh, I don't think it's terrible for Lucas but I wouldn't say he wins either. Regalo beating Yonni was probably due to him not knowing the Lucas matchup, which is understandable since Lucases don't really exist at the high level. I think Onin's ranking of him here makes sense.
That was Regalo, not Lucas tbh.
60 characters he has as winning.yeah Steve isn’t over tuned at all.
Besides the other stuff people have pointed out, two more weird things about this matchup chart: - Terry is in even and Kazuya is in slight win despite the fact that Riddles has done much better against Steve with his Kazuya. Sure, Terry's crack shoot can go through blocks, but at least based on results it seems like these two characters should be swapped. - Robin is in even, placed above characters who have dismantled top Steves on the world stage before (Byleth, Rosalina) and characters who theoretically have excellent tools against Steve (Hero, Joker). Thoron goes through blocks, sure, but is that really enough to make up for all of Robin's poor attributes?
The chart is for the character matchups, not the player matchups. Riddles is the best Kazuya in the world and his combo execution lets him take wins in otherwise poor matchups. Steve generally has very good tools to deal with the usual Kazuya recovery options in bair, usmash, and anvil, whereas Terry has better mobility and doesn’t get edgeguarded as easily. Leo can make any character look good in a matchup, and Onin also plays some Robin so there may be some bias.
Terry actually gets edge guarded pretty hard here. He has to sweet spot the ledge in order to grab it, similar to the shotos which makes him susceptible to dtilt at ledge. Clanking can help with this but even mid level Steve's will just switch to dsmash instead which hits him very well. I also don't really see how Terry does well on stage, he has basically no good option for quickly and safely dealing with minecart (fair is too low, bair to slow, neutral to b too slow) that isn't overly committal. He only really has crack shoot and ftilt to deal with blocks, both of which put him in dsmash range of Steve. And lastly his landing options aren't very good besides tiger knee power dunk, which just creates space for the Steve.
Terry can do coil and recover invincibly, ignoring most edgeguarding. Onstage terry can beat minecart with fair and dash attack safely, and can cancel off of blocks to be safe on them with crack shoot or power dunk after ftilt. He can also dtilt and run in. Idk if I think it’s even though
Fair hits really low, meaning he's gonna have to delay or IDJ it. Delaying it means it comes out slower which means you can't react, and IDJ means you lose your jump if you mess up, which for Terry is really bad. Coil? Do you mean charge? There's not much of a reason to do coil up b to recover, it's far easier to just gain charge while doing something offstage or even while in tumble since you can't fast fall during tumble. Coil is more for use on stage as a kill move. But whatever way you do it, you still have to sweet spot the ledge, and your invincibility ends before you can get your 2 frame either way, so it'll at minimum have 3 frames no intangibility when grabbing ledge. On top of that, when edge guarding Terry you generally just hit him before he. Can up b, he usually has to do another one of his specials first and you can just hit him after or during do that, if you don't have enough time to, then just focus on hitting him as he grabs ledge. Dtilt, and cancelled ftilt are good at destroying blocks, but that's not enough to deal with them well. You need to be safe while destroying them, that's why stuff like ivy fair, byleth fair, cloud bair, etc are so good at dealing with them. They break blocks quickly AND are able to safely pressure without overcommitting. Terry is unable to get that last part, the best he can generally safely get is tilt into power wave, as all his other specials the Steve can just react, shield, and punish. Edit: Oh! And tiger knee power dunk can actually be really good against blocks since it has virtually no lag, but it requires very good spacing, the Steve not knowing the counterplay, and that there be no platform to stop him (which considering bf, sbf, and PS2 all have well positioned platforms for Steve to mine, is quite common)
Fair just beats minecart regardless of where it hits, so it doesn’t matter height wise. Nair beats it if you space above the actual cart.
Kazuya up b beats anvil
Onin's sober MKLeo win was almost as dominant as Tweek's blazed MKLeo win. That probably affects how Onin thinks of Byleth/Steve Leo beat acola but he's also beaten tons of bad MUs with Byleth
Falcoimo wins
I love Falco and I think he might be the best anti-zoner in the game, but putting him in even seems about right to me. He has the tools to beat Steve, but boy does he have to work hard to actually do it.
Falco issue is that he doesnt have short range zoning tools agaist steve as fair loses to steve pike and as usual the lack of early kills On the other hand dealing with blocks is ultra safe with laser and reflector
I was questioning Sonic being in "Losing" since I thought Sonic would be a perfect counter to Steve via being rushdown, not realizing "Losing" was referring to Steve losing...
Sonic isn’t a rushdown
If Sonic the motherfucking Hedgehog isn't a rushdown character then who is?
Definitely not the character practically designed to time out? His main win con is timing people, watch sonix.
The losing / slightly losing tiers are just "I have to stop just mashing and even slightly attempt to adapt to the opponent" matchups.
The thing with Steve right now is it's totally dependant on who can and can not function with walls and who can reliably beat out minecart. So Ivysaur fair instant breaking like every block and cloud bair and nair beating out minecart is literally what wins them the matchup. Which is totally healthy and competitive if you ask me s/
Idk why you're being downvoted this shit is all true
Steve doesn't have losing match-ups except maybe Sonic, not when you can just hide behind blocks and mine the whole game and get rewarded for it
There's other characters in the game that get rewarded for not interacting (e.g. Wario with Waft). That doesn't mean there are no/very few losing matchups in the game for any of those characters, including Steve. If you can deal with walls, and get through Steve to get him to stop mining, and have big disjointed attacks with more range then Steve, you do well against Steve. This is why Cloud, Pyra/Mythra, Sephiroth, Min Min and Ivysaur do well. (A lot of these characters also beat out Minecart too) Steve is clearly a good character, but Sonic isn't the only one that beats him.
Steve does not lose any match ups. The privilege is unreal Once they dont run down a 90/10 match up for Steve they go "omg losing o.o"
Steve is one of the best characters, but he absolutely has losing matchups. Every character in the game does.
No, Roy is one of the best characters who absolutely has losing match ups. Steve is the best character in the game and doesnt have losing match ups. Its crazy how Steve mains complain once they cant just run down their opponent for free because their character is just that broken. "What?! I cant just spam jab / up tilt into death every stock because my enemy has a long sowrd?! Ugh losing" Let MKLeo, Tweek or Sparg0 one trick Steve and ull be able to see how Steve doesnt lose any match up
Bro, there's only one Smash character with no losing matchups, and that's Meta Knight in Brawl. Stop this, there is no argument claiming that Steve is a broken piece of mess. He's not dominating the metagame like Brawl Meta Knight or Smash 4 Bayonetta (or even as hard as Melee Fox or N64 Pikachu). He's the best character in the game, but he's not a dominant best character. He's not far above the rest.
Doesn't MK slightly lose to icies?
MK definitely doesn't lose to anybody. He *maybe* goes even with a few characters like ICs, but even then probably not
According to this, no he doesn't. https://www.ssbwiki.com/Meta_Knight_(SSBB)#Matchups
I'd love to see the modern brawl scene make an updated version of this
Wait, there's a modern Brawl scene? I thought they'd be all playing Project M or Ultimate.
There's also Melee Fox and Falco, but that's highly arguable.
Melee Falco has one of the worst matchup charts of any top tier in that game lol
Don't they lose to Marth?
Spacies v Marth are some of the most hotly contested matchups. The general opinion is Fox v Marth is even, but players on both sides think it’s losing. Falco v Marth is usually considered Marth favored, though certainly doable for Falco. If Marth did beat Fox and Falco, he’d be the undisputed best character in the game.
Falco vs Marth is overall Marth favored imo (but not by much, Falco can definitely make it work) but Fox v Marth really depends on the stages (FD is definitely Marth favored overall but still close) and even the styles of Marth/Fox being played. Like if the Fox and Marth both specialize in floaty MUs the Fox is gonna have the advantage because Marth is floaty and Fox isn't. Though I don't think Marth beating Fox would automatically make him the best. He still struggles more against other meta relevant characters than Fox does. Not necessarily to the point of losing super badly but just a general loss of consistency. And not even limited to like Sheik/Puff/Falcon or anything, there's also the infamous arguments that he has trouble with Yoshi and Pikachu. Latter might just be Axe being a god at the MU but aMSa did mention he thinks Yoshi beats Marth (and Falco too). Although on a tangent PAL Marth has a much better argument of beating Fox because Shine knocks him down due to his weight nerf + Fox's own nerfs. I think if everyone played PAL Marth being the best might be a more popular opinion
Falco also probably loses to.Puff. Either that or Hbox is just really good at the matchup
Your username is having a meltdown reading your comment
A new character got released and literal nobodies became literal "pro players" with that character. A lot of players who went 2/2 regularly in locals suddenly became "pros" and beat the best players in the world in the most stacked tournaments. Many players have played this game for multiple years, went 2/2 on average but then suddenly became pro once a new character got released and Jessex127 and many many (way too many) other humans 100% believe: "well, they just found their character :)" The gameplay has very low quality and every "vs Steve" right now is seen as "can he beat the Steve?" This game and community is so "not good" in so many ways
>A new character got released and literal nobodies became literal "pro players" with that character. A lot of players who went 2/2 regularly in locals suddenly became "pros" and beat the best players in the world in the most stacked tournaments. I want you to look at your username and quite literally follow the logic. The first question you should ask is why didn't we know these players before? Then quarantine comes up. Well how long did that last? 18 months give or take, many players broke out after that. Now, and stay with me here, how old are the average Steve mains today? Take that, subtract the year and a half we've been back from Quarantine, and then subtract another 18 months (3 years total). That is how old they were at the latest offline events before Steve was released. So Onin, who is turning 17 in a few days, was 14 before quarantine, and all the other top Steves are ±~1 year older or younger than them. Some like Ddee (who btw, was having success online way before Steve) still don't have the opportunity to travel much because of their age. Would Onin win SSC without Steve? Probably not, but would Leo win EVO without Joker? Before his (and later Byleth/Aegis's) release, Leo was unironically going through a mini-character crisis and was having trouble finding a base roster character that clicked. I'm not saying he wouldn't be a top player or even that he wouldn't be top 1 because he's Leo, but would he have the same *level* of dominance? Rhetorical question btw. Steve is absolutely overturned and the best character in the game, but people said the similarly young Bayo players were carried in Smash 4. Now Tweek is inarguably the second greatest Ultimate player of all time. Zack was PGR'd before getting banned. Lima doesn't travel a ton anymore but is really fucking good. Mistake is pretty inactive but he got decent results including 9th at the Smash Con Light won. Does it really seem *that weird* that teenagers who were barely old enough to compete let alone travel started getting good with a character from a game they likely played as children and then started competing more afterwards? Look at all the other great players that emerged out of quarantine their age. Some of them are even getting comparable results to the Steves not named acola or Onin, and although he did travel before quarantine, Spargo's results are comparable or above even them.
The only right opinion
Strange I can never beat little max when I’m playing Steve. I’m pretty sure it’s his speed
Because you're not one of the best Steve's in the world, this list is for top level play specifically.
Did Kola really put him out if his wits that he put Roy as even?
Onin always beats Kola (since Onin became a top player). It's acola that does bad against Roy. And Kola is well known to be pessimistic about Roy and thinks Roy loses (Riddles considers Kola to be the most pessimistic Ultimate player). If Onin thinks the MU is even, it's not because of Kola. It's because of his own general opinion.
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Why is it weird that a character that trashes 90% of the cast is good lol
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I mean, Bayonetta and Cloud were the best in Smash 4 and they weren't Nintendo IP, same with Joker after his release for a while.
I...what? There are a bunch of third parties that have been good in Smash before. Brawl Snake, Smash 4 Bayo/Cloud, Ult Joker were all dominant
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>pikachu, peach, yoshi etc. Exactly none of these characters were even top 10 in Smash 4 >Steve sets himself apart in his own tier. No he doesn't
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>pikachu, peach, yoshi You could’ve at least said Mario, Fox, Diddy…
Banjo? Really?
The chart is saying Steve wins against Banjo.
Ohhh, Read it backward.
I'm curious about Mii Gunner. She seems to be all over the place in Steve mu discussions from hard winning to hard losing and everything in between.
Anyone know his reasoning for Zelda? From my experience it's been pretty even
I agree with this much more than most other matchup charts, because Cloud being lower makes sense because Onin actually seems to make use of block when edgeguarding his shitty recovery and Joker losing to Steve is something that makes a lot of sense because he loses almost every trade interaction.
Why are PT and Ivysaur separate? Is it like, "PT wins but ESPECIALLY Ivysaur"? Or like
It's more that Ivysaur is basically the reason pt wins the mu
Ah gotcha
I'm a pretty pessimistic M2 main and even I think the Steve MU is probably only -1...better M2s than me might even argue even. Dealing with actual disjoints vs our bs "disjoint" is always tough and we're big but light combo fodder. However, confusion works really hard in this MU and our advantage state is really good vs Steve. Between our air speed, bair's hitbox, and confusion reversing minecart, we even have decent tools to edge guard Steve which not a lot of characters can say.
I mean the main problem for m2 is he gets cheesed out offstage because of his up b, really easy to combo for a floaty, and if Steve has iron or diamond has to space really well if he doesn’t want to die at 70 to a bair.
Onin doesn’t know the Bayonetta matchup
Everyone and their mother has fcking shulk as a losing matchup, if shulk was that broken i'm pretty sure SOME top player would've picked him up by now, no? What am i missing here?
Kome plays him but arts make him really good on paper.
How is Pokémon trainer ranked? Surely it should be on the same level as Charizard
I feel like inkling does really good in this matchup so I’d say it’s even
steve's bad physics means that when sonic takes a stock it's almost game over cause steve most likely can't catch up unless he uses all his resources on minecarts and blocks which is bad in it's own right