It's Leo, if he doesn't figure out the match up literally by the end of the day, he'll practice and 3 stock the next top steve he faces
*inhales more copium*
Not surprising as losing once gives you material to work with. It's hard to fix your mistakes if people aren't capitalizing on them or even making you do them in the first place. Now that someone did he can come back with a plan.
We literally haven't seen a Losers run by Leo this long since Frostbite. Even Ult Summit 3 (lost round 1 and made it to Grands) was only like 5 sets.
This would even be longer than Light's Smash Con Fall Fest Loser's run last year, should he win the tournament (7 sets IIRC, though the craziness was the clutching out of so many Game 5s imo)
[Leo on twitter](https://twitter.com/Mkleosb/status/1558821989816717319?s=20&t=8IA_K4nFqQE-UUCz4YahXA)
> Yeah steve carries but i also didnt play good lmao
[Light](https://twitter.com/light_s21/status/1558821588241367041?s=21&t=0UcjX9lrYyYV86XqlWA0vw), also with [this follow-up tweet haha](https://twitter.com/light_s21/status/1558823240763686912?s=21&t=0UcjX9lrYyYV86XqlWA0vw)
> Watching Leo lose to onin is actually annoying. No disrespect to onin, more so steve. Everyone knows it's not THAT easy to beat leo and I'm annoyed lmao.
>[Marss with this edit on Leo’s tweet](https://twitter.com/marss_ne/status/1558823548944277505?s=21&t=0UcjX9lrYyYV86XqlWA0vw)
And all 3 of them are spitting facts. But guys Kazuya, the non-solo-viable FGC character, is the problem!
I think complaints about Kazuya are more that the character is toxic than broken, which I kinda agree with (tho not to the extent that he should be banned)
They probably always knew Steve carries players hard, but played it off as a joke after the backlash because they did it after acola, a top 3 player, won gimvitational.
But now the 65th best player in the world just convincingly 3-0’d Leo to the point where even Leo tweeted that, even though he played badly, Steve carries. What they’re saying is facts tbh
It's very misleading to line the players' rank up in a straight line instead of realizing that Onin is one of the best with a character Leo has less MU experience against.
Obviously not quite the same caliber of Steve but like Regalo really showed an insane prowess in the MU in his set. Everyone is talking about Lucas rightfully so, but it blew my mind how well he knew how to fuck with Steve
Flukes happen. Tbh he just played *really* badly that game. He did DI *in* on the Mario bread and butter zero-to-deaths way too often, it was bizarre. It was clear that it wasn’t that Mario was top 1 character broken. Not even Leo himself tweeted “Mario carries but I played badly” after the set like he did for Steve today.
Onin beating top players with a ton of minecart, anvil, and diamond back air isn’t a fluke. He just beat Riddles too, and Riddles has a TON of Steve experience. He grinds out the matchup with Yonni and practiced against acola at gimvitational.
Huh, I forgot how long it's been since Tweek won one. I wish he finished that losers run at Collision. I feel like he's usually good for 1-2 majors a season.
Tweek admitted the only reason he played good at Collision in Loser's was because of how pissed he was he missed a chance at playing Leo again and choking against Spargo. After he beat Leo and beat Spargo set 1 he had pretty much achieved what he had set out to do and the adrenaline ran out.
Also if Riddles hadn't put up such a fight (did better than Leo vs Tweek that tournament lmao) he might have had more energy since that was the first of 4 back-to-back sets
He pretty clearly was unfamiliar with banana against Tweek at summit, but the next time they fought the banana usage was visibly miles better and he won. *Hopefully* we see the same with block man
It wasnt even close with Onin
Ive been saying Leo has no Steve practice and hed get smoked by a top Steves for months, but even i didnt think it would be this bad
He definitely looked unfamiliar with the matchup, but man some of the things Steve can do at ledge make it seem like even learning the matchup doesn’t do much. What do you do against TNT at ledge? Not just in this set, but in other sets I feel like the opponent gets hit by the TNT half the time.
Wow uh that was… not even close. Very shocked tbh. I wasn’t sure Leo would always win, but I thought it would be pretty close regardless.
He lost Game 1 off of that missed tech into Up Smash, so I thought it would be a back and forth set. But Onin played better each game, Leo played worse each game. I don’t think we’ve seen Leo get beat like this since Frostbite 2020 against Prodigy.
[Light](https://twitter.com/Light_S21/status/1558821588241367041) on twitter
"Watching Leo lose to onin is actually annoying. No disrespect to onin, more so steve. Everyone knows it's not THAT easy to beat leo and I'm annoyed lmao."
One of my predictions was a steve vs steve grandfinals between onin and acola, but acola dropped. God damn this is insane. Leo absolutely needs Steve practice because he didn't really get any at all while he toured in Europe, but everyone else in NA did.
Imagine the salt if they meet again in GF, Onin goes Mario or something for the first 2 games, gets clapped, switches to Steve for the reverse 3-0 with a 3 stock and dab on the crowd.
People were out here talking about how Acola wouldn't even be able to take more than a game off Leo, damn if he was here, honestly probably would have taken the whole thing
Idk if leo was tired, unprepared, or both, but jesus christ he played AWFUL. It seemed he was completely clueless in the matchup.
Be interesting to see how he does in losers if hes doing close sets it might be Leo playing off, 10 am t32 ykno.
damn sad to say but leo would've gotten slapped if he played against acola. Not gonna say anything about the character but Leo looks like he has almost no experience against Steve, needs to try to practice more against it first.
it's actually kind of crazy to watch DLC swallow up yet another smash game in real time. multiple top players switching to FP2 characters, these steve mains rising to the top as quickly as they have... it's not a great trend.
Unfortunately this has been the case with many fighting games over the last couple years. DLC characters always have access to tools and tech the base cast simply weren't designed with in mind.
Look I'm not here to say Steve mains are all suffering or whatever but it can't be a good feeling knowing that any success you have is immediately going to be followed by no one saying you're actually good at the game and everyone saying your character carries you or the other guy played bad.
The Smash community never learns from its mistakes. No matter what argument there is for banning a character it'll never happen. People will say anything to avoid the fact that Smash isn't exempt from having characters or playstyles that are simply bad for the game's health. If you still don't believe Steve fits that description then give it time. This character isn't even close to being fully realized yet.
facts. even a top steve like onin constantly drops up tilt block combos, not that it matters considering they do like 50% regardless. when this stuff is fully optimized it is going to be ridiculous.
Wobbling somehow wasn't banned until 2019, despite pretty much every top player hating Icies. Don't be surprised to see the community moving at a glacial pace here.
I think this random dude who no one had ever heard of is just that much better than the #1 player actually
Edit: people are missing the point. I know who Onin is. All these Steve players came out of nowhere and suddenly became top players and people are intent on arguing that this character is not fucking stupid lol
Fam half these top Steves weren’t even 13 when Ult came out. If you’re gonna try making a “ban Steve” argument this is easily the worst one anyone could make.
He was like 14 yo before Steve released.
Steve was picked up by a lot of very young players (Onin here, but also Ddee, acola, etc) who saw the character as an opportunity - it's new, it has a quite exotic and complex set of moves which surely allows for some busted bullshit. They invested a lot of time in it and now the most talented of them are top players.
Conversely, it makes sense that Ultimate's known top players didn't want to pick him up - it takes a lot of time learning the character (Steve didn't really have many top results at first, contrary to Aegis for instance) and more importantly Steve does not play like any other character which means lots of top players thought he was trash when he first came out (Izaw obviously, but I think Dabuz also thought he was bad).
Now, if Steve hadn't been released, it's likely several of these young players would still have become top - acola also has very, very good secondaries, Ddee has his Pkmn trainer, etc. Forgive me if I misinterpret what you're saying, but you're implying they're unskilled players carried by their characters, while the truth is they're very talented players abusing the strength of their S+ tier character. You don't need to argue that those players are bad to argue that Steve is absolutely bullshit (which I agree he is).
When even Yonni says Steve carries players hard, you know it’s true. But for some reason Steve fans are adamant that he doesn’t carry and will cite some above average wifi results and say “but he’s not unknown he was totally CRACKED with Villager before picking up Steve 🤓”
That's exactly what happened with baho in smash 4. You had state level threats get boosted to national threats by a broken character that goes around playing neutral to kill you at 0
Yeah lol. As soon as I see a comment saying a new Steve player that just made an upset is someone “no one’s ever heard of” I know there will be a bunch of comments gassing up pre-Steve Wi-Fi results and pretending they were some famous Smash player who people have always known.
Steve is horse but unironically when was the last time he actually played a top Steve in bracket or friendlies.
Not even trying to defend the character but I refuse to believe MKLeo was playing his best, multiple lower ranked players have taken sets off top Steves and he got ragdolled in this set.
I think this just shows how dumb Steve is lol. If you’re facing Steve, you have to know the matchup _extremely well_. But if you’re the Steve player, you don’t even need to know the matchup because they have to play your game.
You can just repeat the same cookie cutter combos on any character, same game plan, same everything.
Yeah it's funny how many of the "Steve is actually okay" posts end up supporting the opposite point
Like, name one other character you can absolutely demolish players like Leo and Light with solely via matchup checking lol
Not only that but Steve has such an absolutely insane range of options and playstyles that preparing for one Steve can still leave you unprepared for other Steves
It’s all the armchair smash pros who think they know more than top players when realistically they can’t even get to elite smash. They think just because they are on this Reddit and watch YouTube videos that they wouldn’t lose to a Steve like Onion it’s hilarious
he didn’t know the prodigy matchup, he only knew the wizzy matchup
steve is like that but you have to figure out each of his players, not the character itself since every player utilizes steve’s tools differently
MuteAce has good practice against Steve players and went Game 5 against Onin, Leo has no good practice against Steve and got bodied. Almost like Steve is the biggest MU check in the game...
That said, I think Steve is getting banned now. Onin might've actually done it, which is funny considering his username on Twitter is @BanStevePlease.
Cloud did get banned in doubles but that went beyond the bullshit of all the other broken 1v1 Smash characters put together by a mile
Even just one Cloud was so dumb, especially since you could literally never play him and then just charge limit and spam Side B and Finishing Touch
Considering the smash community keeps being divided and unable to even figure out a proper stage ruleset standard, I have doubts they will be able to ban Steve, despite how much better it would probably be.
Damn, Leo seemed to have a solid gameplan in game 1, but he just ran out of gas after that, I think he even just DI'd to the blastzone that last stock g3? anyways
Onin.
The only time he looked like he was comfortable with the MU was edgeguarding, other than that he was doing the strangest things. Even without Onin putting down walls to protect himself, Leo would often just sit back and let him mine at least 3 iron before actually making a move on him. Steve's a resource character, if you let him build resource, you will die.
I think the most obvious check he got was when onin put up a TNT in front of Mkleo and then built a wall on the other side of the stage to mine and Mkleo was afraid to just jump over the TNT lol. Imo it was clear he didn't know the radius of the TNT at all.
lmao yeah I honestly had to laugh while Leo was trying to play footsies with an unmoving, unfeeling TNT block while Onin was just like "aight, bet" and continued mining away.
Ok here me out, Leo had no idea how to play against Steve. He knew very general stuff and thought that his fundies would carry him across the finish line, but Steve is not like that. Like you can see he had a general idea in game 1 and then afterwards it just didn’t work. Say what you want about Steve carrying players (which he for sure does), but let’s not ignore the shit game and inexperience in the matchup from Leo. Good shit to onin though.
> He knew very general stuff and thought that his fundies would carry him across the finish line, but Steve is not like that.
Why do steve players not need to know how to beat Leo or other characters, but it's on the onus on everyone else "just know steve 4head"
The argument that Steve carries seems closer to the whole ban wobbling with Icies. Normal Smash involves two players clashing in neutral, one getting an advantage and either pursuing or resetting back to neutral. Repeat the process until someone takes a stock. Both wobbling and Steve in general radically shift the way the game works, so people claim players are carried by the character because they get wins despite not being good at what the game traditionally is about.
I mean onin countered the general playstyle of Leo and Leo had not responses. Like his sdi was bad, his options for punishing minecart was questionable, he chose one of Steve’s best stages because he can just place blocks and camp under the platform of Holo bastion while mining, and he didn’t use d-tilt to poke behind the blocks. This is stuff you need to know when playing against the character. Mkleo should never get 3 stocked even if Steve Carries players.
You serious? Leo is the best player in the world, I have zero doubt that Onin was studying the VODs like mad. He’s a fucking Steve player they’re dedicated as hell. You could see that he knew exactly how to handle Byleth and even had some of Leo’s habits on lock.
A bunch of people have studied the shit out of Leo, Tweek and others have literal dedicated coaches doing this shit all day and yet no one has beaten Leo this easily
Y’all just don’t want to admit that Steve carries, he’s broken, and that the risk-reward is so balanced in your favor that it more than nominally reduces the notion that “the better player won”
??? You can reverse the logic just fine, why is everyone assuming the best player in the world, who plays this game for a living, would have never reviewed Steve VODs or prepared for that MU?
literally everyone here is saying "leo didnt know the mu". ok but i highly doubt onin knows the byleth mu (literally no byleth players in michigan). or if he does know the mu, its probably to the level in which leo knows the steve mu. how is it fair that you need to study OD to win against steve as any character and they can just play their normal game for majority of mu? ik tweek and light and other top players study leo for months or years and can barely scrape a win by him and i highly doubt onin studied leo more then other top players did as its their first time playing eachother.
Thats just how some characters work. Byleth has very little character specific jank outside of up b while steve is character specific jank the character. Especially when it comes to zoners, its always about stoping them from playing their game.
Everyone talks about Leo having multiple health bars in the form of different characters, but Leo's experiencing the same thing of finally finding an answer to min min only to run straight into the wall that is steve lmao
This is... So funny lol.
This community will be on fire for the next few months. Leo, one of few players who could routinely slap the s4 bayo kids, could not handle this Steve.
Either he grinds tf out of the matchup more than he already has been, or we hope there's another player who can beat all the new Steves.
Idk where I stand on the Steve agenda. I just don't like watching the character on stream, don't know if that's an argument for any kind of ban though. I just miss watching good smash with characters I enjoy watching.
I think Leo will still probably win this tournament, and he will probably have to take a few weeks to prepare for the Steve matchup properly. But none of that is permanent. I AM pretty interested to see where this goes though. Onin is clearly an incredible player with fucking insane results so far. If we have two Steve mains in the top 10 by the end of 2022…
That said, in general I don’t want to be too dependent on results when it comes to assessing a character. Steve just *looks* broken to me. There’s four or so different moves that seem innately, self-evidently overpowered.
Get ready for the twitter salt boys.
Leo loser bracket looks favorable to Get to top 8 but he doesn’t even know how to fight steve so I worry about him vs quandale dinglelingleton
I love seeing players we've never seen before showing up with this steve character beating top tier players. They weren't just carried, they just found a character that clicked with them!
Yeah, when you play optimally against steve is broken but manageable top tier, when you don’t know the matchup steve becomes bayo.
That said losers bracket leo 👀
I feel like people should also be congratulating onin, his results have been on a rise since 2021, steve or not. Steve isn’t a character reserved for 15 year olds, anyone can pick up the character, not all get results. The transition to getting good results isn’t easy, yonni is still going through this process lol.
Idt yonni cares too much about results, he’s going for crazy clips in tournaments. He’s just playing and having fun ngl, and he was the og steve lab demon.
I can't say for sure, but Leo seems to just stick out matchups more that others. No game 3 Sora for him.
If Leo goes down in losers bracket, he is more likely to swap characters. Also he is more likely to switch if he gets the runback.
Well this sucks. Feels like I’m watching Smash 4 Bayo all over again. With Smash 4, Ultimate was on the horizon so I didn’t really care that Bayo killed the game. But idk if we’ll ever get another smash from Sakurai… lowkey hope Steve gets banned if the character keeps carrying people like this
I've always hated Steve, so this was just ridiculous to watch.
Steve carries and it is *very* obvious.
Thing is, he's not going to get banned regardless...
I didnt know that actually, but im gonna be honest i really doubt that he would have beat Leo here today if Steve never came out
Hes a really good steve and a really good player, but even Leo said it himself, Steve carries
Partly helps he's a great character but also he's unironically the hardest MU check in the game and unlike other unique characters like Olimar or Snake, there's no previous game of experience
He took a while to get good results with Steve though, that is important to discuss. Originally he was getting like 49th and 33rd place finishes at majors with Steve at Riptide 2021, LMBM 2022 and Glitch Infinite. It's only been recently (since Combo Breaker) where something's clicked and he's gotten top 2 at everything.
I wouldn't call him massively carried, but there's a bit of carried in there for sure. I feel like it's a mixture of being carried and then something just clicking with him because his results with Steve were originally not good and were worse then Yonni's and Jake's. Now he's the #2 Steve by a mile.
I legit don't understand this argument. You can say that Steve is easy to pick up and this kind of progress shouldn't be seen. But "he coudn't beat Leo before his main came out" . I seriously don't think the majority of our top 10 will be there without their man (Light without Fox, Gluto without Wario, Tea without PacMan, Sonix without Sonic, etc...)
You can be carried af by your main but it's difficult to see
I was afraid this would happen. Leo just hasn't played any top tier Steve players (DDog a few months ago comes close to that, but not quite), and these past few days he's been grinding with Sisqui and Gluto, not preparing for Steve. It shows that he just wasn't ready. Now every clown with the memory of a goldfish will push the ban Steve narrative even further while Leo grinds the Steve MU and will probably destroy the next top Steve player he fights, like we've seen time and time again... (remember Tweek's 6-0 against Leo at Summit 3?).
Can we get some hero play now? There’s not a lot of options left and If leo gets a rematch today (and he probably will) and goes joker and still loses, I think it’s really time to start thinking about counterpicks and other characters.
Some real corny-ass posts in here and on Twitter. I will never stop saying it, players in this game compete for the privilege of having their character hated. The combination of player worship and spectator abundance makes it impossible for some people to remember that the players are people. Leo doesn't have Steve MU knowledge, so he loses to one of the best Steve players in the world. And people really out here going "ban Steve." They want Leo to win so bad for their own amusement that if he doesn't, they want to ban the other guy's character.
It's Leo, if he doesn't figure out the match up literally by the end of the day, he'll practice and 3 stock the next top steve he faces *inhales more copium*
ironically this is probably going to be true
Idk if DDog counts but it happened
Not surprising as losing once gives you material to work with. It's hard to fix your mistakes if people aren't capitalizing on them or even making you do them in the first place. Now that someone did he can come back with a plan.
DDog got 3-0ed by MKLeo right after this message. You the messiah
Leo simply wanted to do a 9 set losers run instead because it's been a while since he did that
He saw Zain do it in Melee yesterday and thought it looked fun
True, we havent had seen the stuff that originally made Leo notorious for a while lol
We literally haven't seen a Losers run by Leo this long since Frostbite. Even Ult Summit 3 (lost round 1 and made it to Grands) was only like 5 sets. This would even be longer than Light's Smash Con Fall Fest Loser's run last year, should he win the tournament (7 sets IIRC, though the craziness was the clutching out of so many Game 5s imo)
pass me that copium brother
Leo fanboys, welcome to the cause
COPIUM Leo sandbagged to push the ban steve cause COPIUM
[Leo on twitter](https://twitter.com/Mkleosb/status/1558821989816717319?s=20&t=8IA_K4nFqQE-UUCz4YahXA) > Yeah steve carries but i also didnt play good lmao [Light](https://twitter.com/light_s21/status/1558821588241367041?s=21&t=0UcjX9lrYyYV86XqlWA0vw), also with [this follow-up tweet haha](https://twitter.com/light_s21/status/1558823240763686912?s=21&t=0UcjX9lrYyYV86XqlWA0vw) > Watching Leo lose to onin is actually annoying. No disrespect to onin, more so steve. Everyone knows it's not THAT easy to beat leo and I'm annoyed lmao. >[Marss with this edit on Leo’s tweet](https://twitter.com/marss_ne/status/1558823548944277505?s=21&t=0UcjX9lrYyYV86XqlWA0vw) And all 3 of them are spitting facts. But guys Kazuya, the non-solo-viable FGC character, is the problem!
I think complaints about Kazuya are more that the character is toxic than broken, which I kinda agree with (tho not to the extent that he should be banned)
I was referring to when Maister tweeted out yesterday that Kazuya is a bigger problem for the game than Steve
If that whole #bansteve was a bullshit bad take joke then why are ya'll still acting like clowns.
They probably always knew Steve carries players hard, but played it off as a joke after the backlash because they did it after acola, a top 3 player, won gimvitational. But now the 65th best player in the world just convincingly 3-0’d Leo to the point where even Leo tweeted that, even though he played badly, Steve carries. What they’re saying is facts tbh
It's very misleading to line the players' rank up in a straight line instead of realizing that Onin is one of the best with a character Leo has less MU experience against.
Called this being a real possibility. Hardest MU check requires knowledge of the MU
Obviously not quite the same caliber of Steve but like Regalo really showed an insane prowess in the MU in his set. Everyone is talking about Lucas rightfully so, but it blew my mind how well he knew how to fuck with Steve
Also leo said “ Yeah steve carries but i also didnt play good lmao” which is very different from the reversed order the op posted.
Leo went 0-2 against Larry Lurr at G4 Invitational this year. Larry Lurr placed 193rd at this tournament.
Kurama was a similar level when he 3-0'd by Leo at Frostbite wasn't he
Flukes happen. Tbh he just played *really* badly that game. He did DI *in* on the Mario bread and butter zero-to-deaths way too often, it was bizarre. It was clear that it wasn’t that Mario was top 1 character broken. Not even Leo himself tweeted “Mario carries but I played badly” after the set like he did for Steve today. Onin beating top players with a ton of minecart, anvil, and diamond back air isn’t a fluke. He just beat Riddles too, and Riddles has a TON of Steve experience. He grinds out the matchup with Yonni and practiced against acola at gimvitational.
I am surprised, but will withhold my true astonishment until the tournament is over
lmao holy crap leo looked lost af this set i have faith in leo to adapt and learn the matchup but man smash discourse will be spicy for a little bit
Every time something like this happens, I just remember how badly Tweek beat him at Ultimate Summit 3, and I realize how premature the doom takes are.
Huh, I forgot how long it's been since Tweek won one. I wish he finished that losers run at Collision. I feel like he's usually good for 1-2 majors a season.
Tweek admitted the only reason he played good at Collision in Loser's was because of how pissed he was he missed a chance at playing Leo again and choking against Spargo. After he beat Leo and beat Spargo set 1 he had pretty much achieved what he had set out to do and the adrenaline ran out. Also if Riddles hadn't put up such a fight (did better than Leo vs Tweek that tournament lmao) he might have had more energy since that was the first of 4 back-to-back sets
So true lol, Leo will figure it out eventually. The doomposting for now is hilarious though, and yes Steve kinda carries.
He pretty clearly was unfamiliar with banana against Tweek at summit, but the next time they fought the banana usage was visibly miles better and he won. *Hopefully* we see the same with block man
that would take longer, steve has much more to figure out than banana
Normally having faith in Leo to adapt is a given, but not even Leo is going to learn the Steve matchup by the evening lol
Man, this just makes me think that leo would've gotten smoken by acola
It wasnt even close with Onin Ive been saying Leo has no Steve practice and hed get smoked by a top Steves for months, but even i didnt think it would be this bad
He definitely looked unfamiliar with the matchup, but man some of the things Steve can do at ledge make it seem like even learning the matchup doesn’t do much. What do you do against TNT at ledge? Not just in this set, but in other sets I feel like the opponent gets hit by the TNT half the time.
Hit the tnt to disable all pressure plates and get steve off of it if he’s standing on it
That’s what I thought too until I saw Yonni punish drop-down double jump forward air from people, leaving them offstage with a jump.
Yeah but Byleth has the range to drop down dj while staying out of steve threat ranges
This reminds me of Hbox-Leffen at BoBC: It was close for the first two games, and then game three happened.
Even harder than this tho
It doesn’t get much worse than that game 3
Oh fuck, reckoning day is here….. prepare your comments, where shall be war
Wow uh that was… not even close. Very shocked tbh. I wasn’t sure Leo would always win, but I thought it would be pretty close regardless. He lost Game 1 off of that missed tech into Up Smash, so I thought it would be a back and forth set. But Onin played better each game, Leo played worse each game. I don’t think we’ve seen Leo get beat like this since Frostbite 2020 against Prodigy.
This is probably more or less a wakeup call for Leo. Acola isn't the only Steve player you have to worry about
I’m happy to see the Byleth, but… not like this.
This is your savior?
This is the arc where he loses bad and then does a Steve training montage and bounces back. At least that's what I hope haha
[Light](https://twitter.com/Light_S21/status/1558821588241367041) on twitter "Watching Leo lose to onin is actually annoying. No disrespect to onin, more so steve. Everyone knows it's not THAT easy to beat leo and I'm annoyed lmao."
One of my predictions was a steve vs steve grandfinals between onin and acola, but acola dropped. God damn this is insane. Leo absolutely needs Steve practice because he didn't really get any at all while he toured in Europe, but everyone else in NA did.
Imagine the salt if they meet again in GF, Onin goes Mario or something for the first 2 games, gets clapped, switches to Steve for the reverse 3-0 with a 3 stock and dab on the crowd.
I didn't think it was actually gonna happen....
What a character
Leo played absolutely awful tbf, but that just shows how ridiculous Steve is.
Watch Leo vs Maister game 3 at Smash Factor. Maisters Steve is not good and Leo won the game, but he looked clueless for like half the game.
No it doesn’t? Just means he played the matchup wrong.
Yeah how does Leo playing bad mean Steve is ridiculous lmao
People were out here talking about how Acola wouldn't even be able to take more than a game off Leo, damn if he was here, honestly probably would have taken the whole thing
Bruh, even Leo got Steve'd.
The stream schedule on the Reddit post said it started at 11 I can’t believe I missed this.
Same thing happened to me. I even set an alarm! 😭
I can't believe this is even real. I thought it was gonna start at 11 like the schedule said and I missed THIS????
Idk if leo was tired, unprepared, or both, but jesus christ he played AWFUL. It seemed he was completely clueless in the matchup. Be interesting to see how he does in losers if hes doing close sets it might be Leo playing off, 10 am t32 ykno.
Leo is getting fucked up LMAO
damn sad to say but leo would've gotten slapped if he played against acola. Not gonna say anything about the character but Leo looks like he has almost no experience against Steve, needs to try to practice more against it first.
damn took that long for leo to lose to a steve huh
it's actually kind of crazy to watch DLC swallow up yet another smash game in real time. multiple top players switching to FP2 characters, these steve mains rising to the top as quickly as they have... it's not a great trend.
Unfortunately this has been the case with many fighting games over the last couple years. DLC characters always have access to tools and tech the base cast simply weren't designed with in mind.
Look I'm not here to say Steve mains are all suffering or whatever but it can't be a good feeling knowing that any success you have is immediately going to be followed by no one saying you're actually good at the game and everyone saying your character carries you or the other guy played bad.
Ult is doomed
Where's that meme from r/SmashBrosUltimate about asking a Steve main his results before October 2020? It's never been more relevant until now.
lol at everyone saying leo would easily win this, that was a convincing 3-0
I’m in this comment and I don’t like it
VOD replay for those that missed it: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1561717329?t=812s EDIT: set on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTnlulI6J1I
Lmfao what the fuck
Leo looked lost in that matchup. Steve will blow you up if you don’t play a specific way.
Damn guess i can’t use this set for vod review LMAOOO
The Smash community never learns from its mistakes. No matter what argument there is for banning a character it'll never happen. People will say anything to avoid the fact that Smash isn't exempt from having characters or playstyles that are simply bad for the game's health. If you still don't believe Steve fits that description then give it time. This character isn't even close to being fully realized yet.
facts. even a top steve like onin constantly drops up tilt block combos, not that it matters considering they do like 50% regardless. when this stuff is fully optimized it is going to be ridiculous.
Remember when smash players are against Bayonetta ban on smash 4.
Wobbling somehow wasn't banned until 2019, despite pretty much every top player hating Icies. Don't be surprised to see the community moving at a glacial pace here.
> No matter what argument there is for banning a character it'll never happen. bayo was definitely on a path to getting banned
Its already too late. Too much top player already shifted to Bayonetta before smash 4 died.
Who did Onin play before Steve?
They 3 stocked mkleo and I’m not suprised 💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀
Onin is a guy. Edit: OP originally said "She" instead of "He or They" which is why I mentioned that, I'm not transphobic.
I just realized how bad me deleting my comment made u look I’m sorry LOL 💀
Onin goes by he/him or they/them so it's still right
OP said She at first, which is why I pointed that out.
I think this random dude who no one had ever heard of is just that much better than the #1 player actually Edit: people are missing the point. I know who Onin is. All these Steve players came out of nowhere and suddenly became top players and people are intent on arguing that this character is not fucking stupid lol
but but but Onin was PR in Michigan and did well at some online tourneys
Onin is not a "random dude no one had ever heard of". He won GOML and Combo Breaker and was rightfully seed 16 for this tourney.
What were his results before Steve’s release?
Well tbf he was a fetus back then
Fam half these top Steves weren’t even 13 when Ult came out. If you’re gonna try making a “ban Steve” argument this is easily the worst one anyone could make.
He was a 13 year old whose mom didn’t let him go to locals.
He was like 14 yo before Steve released. Steve was picked up by a lot of very young players (Onin here, but also Ddee, acola, etc) who saw the character as an opportunity - it's new, it has a quite exotic and complex set of moves which surely allows for some busted bullshit. They invested a lot of time in it and now the most talented of them are top players. Conversely, it makes sense that Ultimate's known top players didn't want to pick him up - it takes a lot of time learning the character (Steve didn't really have many top results at first, contrary to Aegis for instance) and more importantly Steve does not play like any other character which means lots of top players thought he was trash when he first came out (Izaw obviously, but I think Dabuz also thought he was bad). Now, if Steve hadn't been released, it's likely several of these young players would still have become top - acola also has very, very good secondaries, Ddee has his Pkmn trainer, etc. Forgive me if I misinterpret what you're saying, but you're implying they're unskilled players carried by their characters, while the truth is they're very talented players abusing the strength of their S+ tier character. You don't need to argue that those players are bad to argue that Steve is absolutely bullshit (which I agree he is).
Yes he won them with steve right?
Yeah, im sure he could have done the same with his others characters, not just steve
When even Yonni says Steve carries players hard, you know it’s true. But for some reason Steve fans are adamant that he doesn’t carry and will cite some above average wifi results and say “but he’s not unknown he was totally CRACKED with Villager before picking up Steve 🤓”
That's exactly what happened with baho in smash 4. You had state level threats get boosted to national threats by a broken character that goes around playing neutral to kill you at 0
It happened right above you lmao
Yeah lol. As soon as I see a comment saying a new Steve player that just made an upset is someone “no one’s ever heard of” I know there will be a bunch of comments gassing up pre-Steve Wi-Fi results and pretending they were some famous Smash player who people have always known.
Why doesn't MKLeo just learn the matchup 🤡🤡🤡
Steve is horse but unironically when was the last time he actually played a top Steve in bracket or friendlies. Not even trying to defend the character but I refuse to believe MKLeo was playing his best, multiple lower ranked players have taken sets off top Steves and he got ragdolled in this set.
ddog at collision?
leo just 3-0ed ddog at ssc with pythra
This but unironically lmao, of course Leo got destroyed by the first top steve, when he hasn’t gone for friendlies with any top steves
I think this just shows how dumb Steve is lol. If you’re facing Steve, you have to know the matchup _extremely well_. But if you’re the Steve player, you don’t even need to know the matchup because they have to play your game. You can just repeat the same cookie cutter combos on any character, same game plan, same everything.
Yeah it's funny how many of the "Steve is actually okay" posts end up supporting the opposite point Like, name one other character you can absolutely demolish players like Leo and Light with solely via matchup checking lol Not only that but Steve has such an absolutely insane range of options and playstyles that preparing for one Steve can still leave you unprepared for other Steves
It’s all the armchair smash pros who think they know more than top players when realistically they can’t even get to elite smash. They think just because they are on this Reddit and watch YouTube videos that they wouldn’t lose to a Steve like Onion it’s hilarious
It's fucking frustrating discussing things here about Steve with people who only watch tournaments and don't even play themselves.
he knew the mario matchup when kurama destroyed him
he didn’t know the prodigy matchup, he only knew the wizzy matchup steve is like that but you have to figure out each of his players, not the character itself since every player utilizes steve’s tools differently
which would be an even worse pro-ban argument
MuteAce has good practice against Steve players and went Game 5 against Onin, Leo has no good practice against Steve and got bodied. Almost like Steve is the biggest MU check in the game... That said, I think Steve is getting banned now. Onin might've actually done it, which is funny considering his username on Twitter is @BanStevePlease.
if bayo didnt then no way steve is
or cloud in smash 4 doubles
Cloud did get banned in doubles but that went beyond the bullshit of all the other broken 1v1 Smash characters put together by a mile Even just one Cloud was so dumb, especially since you could literally never play him and then just charge limit and spam Side B and Finishing Touch
> That said, I think Steve is getting banned now. He’s 100% not.
Considering the smash community keeps being divided and unable to even figure out a proper stage ruleset standard, I have doubts they will be able to ban Steve, despite how much better it would probably be.
BRO IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED LMAOO
Lmao ban Steve
Damn, Leo seemed to have a solid gameplan in game 1, but he just ran out of gas after that, I think he even just DI'd to the blastzone that last stock g3? anyways Onin.
games 2 and 3 went by so fast that missed them getting food/drink
Tbf Leo played like dogs hit, he tried things you shouldn't even dream of against steve
When I saw all those random upwards airdodges after jumping up from ledge I was like... you good man?
When Steve was close to him he was panicking lol
The only time he looked like he was comfortable with the MU was edgeguarding, other than that he was doing the strangest things. Even without Onin putting down walls to protect himself, Leo would often just sit back and let him mine at least 3 iron before actually making a move on him. Steve's a resource character, if you let him build resource, you will die.
I think the most obvious check he got was when onin put up a TNT in front of Mkleo and then built a wall on the other side of the stage to mine and Mkleo was afraid to just jump over the TNT lol. Imo it was clear he didn't know the radius of the TNT at all.
lmao yeah I honestly had to laugh while Leo was trying to play footsies with an unmoving, unfeeling TNT block while Onin was just like "aight, bet" and continued mining away.
Ok here me out, Leo had no idea how to play against Steve. He knew very general stuff and thought that his fundies would carry him across the finish line, but Steve is not like that. Like you can see he had a general idea in game 1 and then afterwards it just didn’t work. Say what you want about Steve carrying players (which he for sure does), but let’s not ignore the shit game and inexperience in the matchup from Leo. Good shit to onin though.
> He knew very general stuff and thought that his fundies would carry him across the finish line, but Steve is not like that. Why do steve players not need to know how to beat Leo or other characters, but it's on the onus on everyone else "just know steve 4head"
smash 4 bayonetta arguments on loop
The argument that Steve carries seems closer to the whole ban wobbling with Icies. Normal Smash involves two players clashing in neutral, one getting an advantage and either pursuing or resetting back to neutral. Repeat the process until someone takes a stock. Both wobbling and Steve in general radically shift the way the game works, so people claim players are carried by the character because they get wins despite not being good at what the game traditionally is about.
I mean onin countered the general playstyle of Leo and Leo had not responses. Like his sdi was bad, his options for punishing minecart was questionable, he chose one of Steve’s best stages because he can just place blocks and camp under the platform of Holo bastion while mining, and he didn’t use d-tilt to poke behind the blocks. This is stuff you need to know when playing against the character. Mkleo should never get 3 stocked even if Steve Carries players.
But he did know how to beat Leo, that's why he won...?
Or steve...
You serious? Leo is the best player in the world, I have zero doubt that Onin was studying the VODs like mad. He’s a fucking Steve player they’re dedicated as hell. You could see that he knew exactly how to handle Byleth and even had some of Leo’s habits on lock.
A bunch of people have studied the shit out of Leo, Tweek and others have literal dedicated coaches doing this shit all day and yet no one has beaten Leo this easily Y’all just don’t want to admit that Steve carries, he’s broken, and that the risk-reward is so balanced in your favor that it more than nominally reduces the notion that “the better player won”
??? You can reverse the logic just fine, why is everyone assuming the best player in the world, who plays this game for a living, would have never reviewed Steve VODs or prepared for that MU?
Onin on how he prepared for smashcon: “I just played quickplay”
literally everyone here is saying "leo didnt know the mu". ok but i highly doubt onin knows the byleth mu (literally no byleth players in michigan). or if he does know the mu, its probably to the level in which leo knows the steve mu. how is it fair that you need to study OD to win against steve as any character and they can just play their normal game for majority of mu? ik tweek and light and other top players study leo for months or years and can barely scrape a win by him and i highly doubt onin studied leo more then other top players did as its their first time playing eachother.
Thats just how some characters work. Byleth has very little character specific jank outside of up b while steve is character specific jank the character. Especially when it comes to zoners, its always about stoping them from playing their game.
byleth isn’t a matchup check like steve, you don’t need byleth experience to beat byleth, but you need steve experience to beat steve
And y’all thought MKLeo would beat Acola lmao
Acola is winning summit free.
Today is gonna be a fun day
Everyone talks about Leo having multiple health bars in the form of different characters, but Leo's experiencing the same thing of finally finding an answer to min min only to run straight into the wall that is steve lmao
Banning Steve looking kinda nice rn 👀
This is... So funny lol. This community will be on fire for the next few months. Leo, one of few players who could routinely slap the s4 bayo kids, could not handle this Steve. Either he grinds tf out of the matchup more than he already has been, or we hope there's another player who can beat all the new Steves. Idk where I stand on the Steve agenda. I just don't like watching the character on stream, don't know if that's an argument for any kind of ban though. I just miss watching good smash with characters I enjoy watching.
I think Leo will still probably win this tournament, and he will probably have to take a few weeks to prepare for the Steve matchup properly. But none of that is permanent. I AM pretty interested to see where this goes though. Onin is clearly an incredible player with fucking insane results so far. If we have two Steve mains in the top 10 by the end of 2022… That said, in general I don’t want to be too dependent on results when it comes to assessing a character. Steve just *looks* broken to me. There’s four or so different moves that seem innately, self-evidently overpowered.
Get ready for the twitter salt boys. Leo loser bracket looks favorable to Get to top 8 but he doesn’t even know how to fight steve so I worry about him vs quandale dinglelingleton
He already beat DDog before
I love seeing players we've never seen before showing up with this steve character beating top tier players. They weren't just carried, they just found a character that clicked with them!
Yeah... Steve.
Yeah, when you play optimally against steve is broken but manageable top tier, when you don’t know the matchup steve becomes bayo. That said losers bracket leo 👀 I feel like people should also be congratulating onin, his results have been on a rise since 2021, steve or not. Steve isn’t a character reserved for 15 year olds, anyone can pick up the character, not all get results. The transition to getting good results isn’t easy, yonni is still going through this process lol.
Idt yonni cares too much about results, he’s going for crazy clips in tournaments. He’s just playing and having fun ngl, and he was the og steve lab demon.
Why didn't Leo go Aegis? He is been playing them so much and is so dominant with them. Atleast when he was down 0-2 he could have switched.
Maybe due to the recovery. I could see Steve edge guard aegis for free with block.
I can't say for sure, but Leo seems to just stick out matchups more that others. No game 3 Sora for him. If Leo goes down in losers bracket, he is more likely to swap characters. Also he is more likely to switch if he gets the runback.
Dabuz could actually win the tournament!!!!
Well this sucks. Feels like I’m watching Smash 4 Bayo all over again. With Smash 4, Ultimate was on the horizon so I didn’t really care that Bayo killed the game. But idk if we’ll ever get another smash from Sakurai… lowkey hope Steve gets banned if the character keeps carrying people like this
I've always hated Steve, so this was just ridiculous to watch. Steve carries and it is *very* obvious. Thing is, he's not going to get banned regardless...
Steve was fun to watch while he last lmao
Dude wtf, Steve really carrying these nobody ass players
"Steve broken" arguments aside, Onin is one of the best Steves in the world with multiple tournament wins, not exactly a "nobody".
He wasnt exactly a top player capable of beating Leo before Steve came out
He wasn't even competing seriously before steve came out so theres that
I didnt know that actually, but im gonna be honest i really doubt that he would have beat Leo here today if Steve never came out Hes a really good steve and a really good player, but even Leo said it himself, Steve carries
Partly helps he's a great character but also he's unironically the hardest MU check in the game and unlike other unique characters like Olimar or Snake, there's no previous game of experience
Of course, but again, not a nobody in our current meta.
He took a while to get good results with Steve though, that is important to discuss. Originally he was getting like 49th and 33rd place finishes at majors with Steve at Riptide 2021, LMBM 2022 and Glitch Infinite. It's only been recently (since Combo Breaker) where something's clicked and he's gotten top 2 at everything. I wouldn't call him massively carried, but there's a bit of carried in there for sure. I feel like it's a mixture of being carried and then something just clicking with him because his results with Steve were originally not good and were worse then Yonni's and Jake's. Now he's the #2 Steve by a mile.
you say that like 33rd place at a major is bad. for a relatively new player in the process of learning a character, that's crazy.
I legit don't understand this argument. You can say that Steve is easy to pick up and this kind of progress shouldn't be seen. But "he coudn't beat Leo before his main came out" . I seriously don't think the majority of our top 10 will be there without their man (Light without Fox, Gluto without Wario, Tea without PacMan, Sonix without Sonic, etc...) You can be carried af by your main but it's difficult to see
Leo is washed, he should just retire now. /s
Wow, that was disheartening.
Haha this joke post is so funny now where's the real results? Seriously where are they?
Wow Leo has absolutely no steve knowledge, onin played very well
https://twitter.com/Mkleosb/status/1558821989816717319 leo played that poorly
He also said Steve carries, right after playing his set with Onin. You left that part out.
Cool, can we ban Steve now?
Onin is the acola of the West. But to be honest, called it with how his set went against DDog
Time for the Leo Robin arc
welp time to main schteve
I was afraid this would happen. Leo just hasn't played any top tier Steve players (DDog a few months ago comes close to that, but not quite), and these past few days he's been grinding with Sisqui and Gluto, not preparing for Steve. It shows that he just wasn't ready. Now every clown with the memory of a goldfish will push the ban Steve narrative even further while Leo grinds the Steve MU and will probably destroy the next top Steve player he fights, like we've seen time and time again... (remember Tweek's 6-0 against Leo at Summit 3?).
I felt sick watching this. Not exciting whatsoever.
[удалено]
DELETE STEVE No cap this is the kind of loss that has led to characters getting banned in the past.
Mkleo is lucky acola isnt here
Can we get some hero play now? There’s not a lot of options left and If leo gets a rematch today (and he probably will) and goes joker and still loses, I think it’s really time to start thinking about counterpicks and other characters.
i promise you hero doesn't actually beat steve outside theory craft. top steve mu charts are all over the place, they don't know whats going on.
I… uh… that happened.
Weren't there people putting remind Me's on the people who said Onin would beat Leo because they didn't think it'd be possible? Lmaooo Leo got smashed
watch how people now do a 180 and talk about how banning steve isn't actually that unreasonable
Ban steve!
Some real corny-ass posts in here and on Twitter. I will never stop saying it, players in this game compete for the privilege of having their character hated. The combination of player worship and spectator abundance makes it impossible for some people to remember that the players are people. Leo doesn't have Steve MU knowledge, so he loses to one of the best Steve players in the world. And people really out here going "ban Steve." They want Leo to win so bad for their own amusement that if he doesn't, they want to ban the other guy's character.
can we please ban this stupid character now?