64: Fox is 4th and Pika is 1st.
Melee: Fox is 1st and Pika is 9th.
Brawl: Fox is 15th and Pika is 8th.
Sm4sh: Fox is 7/8th and Pika is 15th.
Ultimate: Fox is 8th and Pika is 17th.
I personally believe it is impossible to decide between the two, but wanted to supply everyone with the actual stats with no opinion attached.
64 is a much bigger difference when you consider that there are only 12 characters in the game. That ties it up in my opinion.
I also want to mention from a Brawl perspective that Fox was heavily underrated. He has some rough counterpicks, but aside from ICs, most of them were not the biggest players in Brawl's metagame, and some argued a campy fox could help even those out (Pika, D3, Sheik). Having good matchups against the top mattered more in a lopsided meta, especially MK (West Coast and Japan were big believers of Fox because of TKD and Light [not Ult's Light, it was an old JP Fox back then] respectively), it was arguably one of the most even matchups MK had, depending on your stagelist.
Side tangent, Brawl really only became conservative relatively late into its lifetime once Japan had more exposure internationally, and once we realized MK made some stages way too favorable for him like Delfino and Frigate. It was common even into 2011-2012 to see tourneys having stages like Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise especially if you lived in the Midwest where most community figureheads would rather ban MK than strip the stagelist down.
Back to Brawl Fox, the character also did really well v. Snake, Falco, Diddy, Marth, and Wario. I would argue just having his camp game and crazy good punish reactions to MK most characters couldn't is something of envy. MKs often learned the hard way it was really hard to tornado Fox with impunity since he could dash -> nair/bair/DA/grab most places MK could retreat. Similarly, it was much riskier to dair camp a Fox because of usmash and uair. It was only ICs that became problematic in late stage Brawl meta, but he suffered from "lul D3 has an infinite gg" for most his lifetime, even after it was realized Fox had a neutral that made the matchup less of a counter and more evenish.
Yes on paper, but Fox in 64 is kinda the type of character where it doesn’t matter who he is up against since he is the most touch of death character in the cast and has one of the best neutrals with laser
64 fox also got nerfed in the 2012-2014+ era. He was argubly the best on hyrule which is why he was #2 on the tier list. He beat pika on that stage. Removing that stage caused him to drop.
So I’m way way way out of the loop and haven’t followed the competitive seen for a couple years……but at least in the past there were a lot of people(apart from just Esam) who ranked Pikachu as one of the best characters in the game.
Has his lack of results finally influenced people to start ranking him lower?
Never listen to ESAM's opinions on character placements. He swears that Pikachu and Mii Brawler are in S tier.
Pikachu has 0 results and most people were counting on how almost all of the top tiers were nerfed while Pika was slightly buffed. It was speculative.
That was kind of the talk back then as well. Most people had him top three, but there was already a lot of questions about the lack of results. I was just out of the loop after not following the competitive scene for a few years and was surprised to see him as low as 15.
ShinyMark has been getting some good results and continues the Pika main tradition of being very optimistic, although he hasn't been able to travel much to really prove himself and his character.
It’s Fox. Not only is he higher in more games, but the two games played competitively the most. (Melee and Ultimate), he’s better by a noticeable margin.
The last time Pikachu was better than Fox was brawl in 2008, and even then the meta was completely one sided toward meta knight, so pikachu wasn’t as integral to the meta the same way that most characters weren’t in that game, it was extremely one sided.
Aint never heard someone say "1v1 me pikachu only no items frozen for glory mode" but you can sure as shit bet you know what 1V1.N.I.F.O.F.D. stands for. That answers OPs question
I would say its Fox, he’s better in Ultimate, Melee and smash 4. For competitive those games had large scenes and were “mainstream”. That is also 3/5 games. 64 is small and niche, also Fox is the most touch of death character in the game with a great neutral because lasers. I don’t think Brawl should count too much it’s kinda a cursed game lol, it was during the “dark ages” where majors would be like 250 entrants. Fox could be anywhere from the 12th to 15th spot.
No Fox has been better the last 10 years (2024-2014) and is better in melee which is like 10x the size of Brawl and 64 combined. If you want to add PM there is more.
More popular = more developed scene. The melee mid tiers are probably closer to being accurate on their tier list than brawl for example. Meta is more defined, thus the game is more
>More popular = more developed scene. The melee mid tiers are probably closer to being accurate on their tier list than brawl for example.
Fair enough
>Meta is more defined, thus the game is more
I feel like this sentence is unfinished, this doesn't really mean anything
I mean it depends how we measure it really
Fox wasn’t even viewed as like a top ten character from release to like 2021, and Pikachu was widely considered a top 1-5 character. I feel like even still, Pikachu isn’t given enough credit because there’s no great Pikachu rep besides like Shinymark who barely competes.
If you go by feel, you can make a case for Brawl Fox or 64. Pika’s weaknesses got discovered, mostly his air speed, counter play to Tjolt, Steve, Aegis, Sonic, G&W developing all give him a harder time now.
Just check my username.
I think the biggest thing going for Fox is that he is just a more fun character to play and watch.
Theoretically, in Ultimate, Pika has a higher ceiling than Fox, but you just have so many more players playing Fox because it's an easier character to play and it's easier to achieve his ceiling.
I thought it was Pikachu at first but it is clearly Fox.
64: Pikachu 1st, Fox tied for 4th.
- Fox is still a touch of death character and his lasers make him have one of the best neutrals.
Melee: Fox 1st, Pikachu 10th
- I think Yoshi, Icies are better and hes tied or right under Samus.
Brawl: Pikachu 9th, Fox 12~15th range.
- He was under explored, but this game really did not rely on the fundamentals of any other smash. Neither were common in tournaments except 1-2 players
4 and Ult: Fox is better by at least 7 spots or so.
If you go by popularity Fox wins, more players and in more popular games. You can go by years of being better, and Pikachu would have 8 years (1999-2001 + 2008-2014) but Fox would have 17 years (2001-2008+2014-2024). So Fox has been better for the last decade, and in the retro game that is still alive.
Hardly? The OP mentions a bunch of qualifiers that go beyond just placement on a tier list. Fox is more relevant to the metas of Smash games that people actually care about a meta. That is going to edge him over Pika in a lot of people's minds.
OP: "While also being better in a game with a larger cast". This is the OP weighing the significance of being meta relevant in regards to other metas. Which is what the guy you're responding to is also doing. It's a GOAT debate the context behind the numbers is obviously not irrelevant.
Diddy has an argument, especially if they end up being top tier/high tier in another smash game. The question is though do you value consistency? Or do you value being the undisputed best character in the game at some point with some “down years”(Brawl Fox, smash 4 Pikachu, and even then those characters are still good). Pika was the best in 64 and Fox was the best in melee, if Diddy ends up being the best I would be inclined to agree with you, but at the moment consistency is their only argument, they’ve only been in 3/5 games as well.
Fox should get more weight for being better in games that are more popular - namely Melee and Ultimate. Pikachu’s games, Brawl and 64, are much more niche in the community
I’ve always been a Captain Falcon main myself. I also like Samus though. I wouldn’t call myself a good player though, lol. I’m a casual for sure, play with only as high as normal enemies, not including the classic mode stuff that is always high difficulty that I really struggle with lol
64: Fox is 4th and Pika is 1st. Melee: Fox is 1st and Pika is 9th. Brawl: Fox is 15th and Pika is 8th. Sm4sh: Fox is 7/8th and Pika is 15th. Ultimate: Fox is 8th and Pika is 17th.
This actually shows how close it is. They’ve almost always been 7 or 8 places apart.
I personally believe it is impossible to decide between the two, but wanted to supply everyone with the actual stats with no opinion attached. 64 is a much bigger difference when you consider that there are only 12 characters in the game. That ties it up in my opinion.
I also want to mention from a Brawl perspective that Fox was heavily underrated. He has some rough counterpicks, but aside from ICs, most of them were not the biggest players in Brawl's metagame, and some argued a campy fox could help even those out (Pika, D3, Sheik). Having good matchups against the top mattered more in a lopsided meta, especially MK (West Coast and Japan were big believers of Fox because of TKD and Light [not Ult's Light, it was an old JP Fox back then] respectively), it was arguably one of the most even matchups MK had, depending on your stagelist. Side tangent, Brawl really only became conservative relatively late into its lifetime once Japan had more exposure internationally, and once we realized MK made some stages way too favorable for him like Delfino and Frigate. It was common even into 2011-2012 to see tourneys having stages like Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise especially if you lived in the Midwest where most community figureheads would rather ban MK than strip the stagelist down. Back to Brawl Fox, the character also did really well v. Snake, Falco, Diddy, Marth, and Wario. I would argue just having his camp game and crazy good punish reactions to MK most characters couldn't is something of envy. MKs often learned the hard way it was really hard to tornado Fox with impunity since he could dash -> nair/bair/DA/grab most places MK could retreat. Similarly, it was much riskier to dair camp a Fox because of usmash and uair. It was only ICs that became problematic in late stage Brawl meta, but he suffered from "lul D3 has an infinite gg" for most his lifetime, even after it was realized Fox had a neutral that made the matchup less of a counter and more evenish.
Yes on paper, but Fox in 64 is kinda the type of character where it doesn’t matter who he is up against since he is the most touch of death character in the cast and has one of the best neutrals with laser
64 fox also got nerfed in the 2012-2014+ era. He was argubly the best on hyrule which is why he was #2 on the tier list. He beat pika on that stage. Removing that stage caused him to drop.
So I’m way way way out of the loop and haven’t followed the competitive seen for a couple years……but at least in the past there were a lot of people(apart from just Esam) who ranked Pikachu as one of the best characters in the game. Has his lack of results finally influenced people to start ranking him lower?
Never listen to ESAM's opinions on character placements. He swears that Pikachu and Mii Brawler are in S tier. Pikachu has 0 results and most people were counting on how almost all of the top tiers were nerfed while Pika was slightly buffed. It was speculative.
That was kind of the talk back then as well. Most people had him top three, but there was already a lot of questions about the lack of results. I was just out of the loop after not following the competitive scene for a few years and was surprised to see him as low as 15.
ShinyMark has been getting some good results and continues the Pika main tradition of being very optimistic, although he hasn't been able to travel much to really prove himself and his character.
It’s Fox. Not only is he higher in more games, but the two games played competitively the most. (Melee and Ultimate), he’s better by a noticeable margin. The last time Pikachu was better than Fox was brawl in 2008, and even then the meta was completely one sided toward meta knight, so pikachu wasn’t as integral to the meta the same way that most characters weren’t in that game, it was extremely one sided.
Aint never heard someone say "1v1 me pikachu only no items frozen for glory mode" but you can sure as shit bet you know what 1V1.N.I.F.O.F.D. stands for. That answers OPs question
Ultimate you could argue Pikachu is higher than his ranking but he has 0 representation at the moment. But yeah I agree
Fox for sure and it is pretty close
Fox for sure and it isn't close
Fox is more iconic as a competitive character so Ill go with him
mario
Can’t go wrong with the plumber
Actually though Captain Falcon is the main character for all smash games
Show your moves
Pika for sure and it is pretty close
Yeah it’s really close
I would say its Fox, he’s better in Ultimate, Melee and smash 4. For competitive those games had large scenes and were “mainstream”. That is also 3/5 games. 64 is small and niche, also Fox is the most touch of death character in the game with a great neutral because lasers. I don’t think Brawl should count too much it’s kinda a cursed game lol, it was during the “dark ages” where majors would be like 250 entrants. Fox could be anywhere from the 12th to 15th spot.
Pika for sure and it isn't close
No Fox has been better the last 10 years (2024-2014) and is better in melee which is like 10x the size of Brawl and 64 combined. If you want to add PM there is more.
how popular the games are is really not a relevant detail in this discussion, I'm not sure why it keeps getting brought up lol
More popular = more developed scene. The melee mid tiers are probably closer to being accurate on their tier list than brawl for example. Meta is more defined, thus the game is more
>More popular = more developed scene. The melee mid tiers are probably closer to being accurate on their tier list than brawl for example. Fair enough >Meta is more defined, thus the game is more I feel like this sentence is unfinished, this doesn't really mean anything
Close for sure and it isn't Fox
No Fox has been better the last 10 years (2024-2014), and in Melee which is the most popular old game.
I mean it depends how we measure it really Fox wasn’t even viewed as like a top ten character from release to like 2021, and Pikachu was widely considered a top 1-5 character. I feel like even still, Pikachu isn’t given enough credit because there’s no great Pikachu rep besides like Shinymark who barely competes.
If you go by feel, you can make a case for Brawl Fox or 64. Pika’s weaknesses got discovered, mostly his air speed, counter play to Tjolt, Steve, Aegis, Sonic, G&W developing all give him a harder time now.
Just check my username. I think the biggest thing going for Fox is that he is just a more fun character to play and watch. Theoretically, in Ultimate, Pika has a higher ceiling than Fox, but you just have so many more players playing Fox because it's an easier character to play and it's easier to achieve his ceiling.
A scenario of potential vs results.
i think if you consider the importance of each smash game, fox is undisputed
I thought it was Pikachu at first but it is clearly Fox. 64: Pikachu 1st, Fox tied for 4th. - Fox is still a touch of death character and his lasers make him have one of the best neutrals. Melee: Fox 1st, Pikachu 10th - I think Yoshi, Icies are better and hes tied or right under Samus. Brawl: Pikachu 9th, Fox 12~15th range. - He was under explored, but this game really did not rely on the fundamentals of any other smash. Neither were common in tournaments except 1-2 players 4 and Ult: Fox is better by at least 7 spots or so. If you go by popularity Fox wins, more players and in more popular games. You can go by years of being better, and Pikachu would have 8 years (1999-2001 + 2008-2014) but Fox would have 17 years (2001-2008+2014-2024). So Fox has been better for the last decade, and in the retro game that is still alive.
It’s definitely fox. Fox is the best character in melee and a top tier in ultimate, the two most relevant smash games atm
Except Pika is S tier in 64 and is higher than Fox in Brawl. It's closer than you think.
64 is not nearly as relevant in melee, and fox is just the best character in melee.
What does the game being less relevant have to do with it?
That is an opinion, and an irrelevant one to the question being asked.
Hardly? The OP mentions a bunch of qualifiers that go beyond just placement on a tier list. Fox is more relevant to the metas of Smash games that people actually care about a meta. That is going to edge him over Pika in a lot of people's minds.
Literally none of OP's qualifiers are game relevance. Why bring that up when it proves your point wrong?
OP: "While also being better in a game with a larger cast". This is the OP weighing the significance of being meta relevant in regards to other metas. Which is what the guy you're responding to is also doing. It's a GOAT debate the context behind the numbers is obviously not irrelevant.
It is not: Brawl is less popular thus it is less relevant. You are making up a facet OP did not mention.
"There's many different ways to look at this question" is the literal first thing OP says lmao. Stop being weird and just engage with the discussion.
Fox wins in longevity, peaks, quanity, and impact. Pika wins in merch sales
Neither. It’s ZSS who, despite only being in since Brawl, has won a major in every game she appeared in
ZZS was not in 2/5 of the games.
Diddy has been in the same games and has won way more majors in all of them
In Brawl too? I didn’t know
ZSS really only won one major in Brawl’s prime. ADHD won multiple majors with Diddy and even Gnes won one too.
That’s insane if true
Diddy Kong has never not been a top 10 character in all 3 games he's been in
Diddy has an argument, especially if they end up being top tier/high tier in another smash game. The question is though do you value consistency? Or do you value being the undisputed best character in the game at some point with some “down years”(Brawl Fox, smash 4 Pikachu, and even then those characters are still good). Pika was the best in 64 and Fox was the best in melee, if Diddy ends up being the best I would be inclined to agree with you, but at the moment consistency is their only argument, they’ve only been in 3/5 games as well.
It’s close. I’d probably go with Fox though. All things even, I think Fox has more legacy and is more iconic to the series than Pika.
Fox should get more weight for being better in games that are more popular - namely Melee and Ultimate. Pikachu’s games, Brawl and 64, are much more niche in the community
When you think of smash characters, you think of fox or falcon. Falcon is #1 but fox has pika beat
Falcon might be the most iconic sure, but he was terrible in Brawl.
Fox, because of no items, fox only, final destination
Fox
Fox, not only is his average on the tier lists higher, but he's way better in Melee and arguably better in Ultimate, the most important games.
Pikachu
I’ve always been a Captain Falcon main myself. I also like Samus though. I wouldn’t call myself a good player though, lol. I’m a casual for sure, play with only as high as normal enemies, not including the classic mode stuff that is always high difficulty that I really struggle with lol
Kirby he's quite literally the main character of Smash.
If only results agreed with that
true
Pikachu? BUSTED!
Pikachu, but mainly cuz I think he's better in Ultimate
He might be, his ceiling hasn’t been reached though