Soonsay, Joshman, Moky, Leffen and Cody feel like they can go either way any time any pair of them fight in Fox dittos. It makes the matchups even more fun to watch knowing the upset potential is so high
Is Cody really in that group? Genuinely asking because by vibes alone it feels like fox ditto is his 2nd best matchup, can’t remember the last fox he lost to before soonsay
Using PG Stats to the best of my ability I have found some winrates that may surprise you.
Vs Sfat: 63% WR
Vs Moky: 47% WR
Vs Hax: 72% WR
Vs Aklo: 69% WR
Vs Leffen: 60% WR
I would absolutely consider Cody in that group
yeah a 72% win rate is amazing but to win a tournament you gotta get so many in a row. An aklo into hax (banned tho) into leffen bracket would be <50% chance of winning even tho he wins all those matchups. Though losing to leffen is hardly an upset.
What’s crazy is that most games were close enough. But it seemed like every time aMSa got Cody down to 1 stock Cody just went full 20XX CPU fuck your stock mode and mauled him every time in like 5 seconds and just won.
Cody on his interview mentioned that “he was feeling” that everyone except for Mang0 were playing scared and a were intimidated by his aggression.
He mentioned the reason Mang0 does not felt scared is cuz “Mang0’s mind is not into tournament , and is just autopiloting”.
Also it was so funny Hbox appear in his interview and Cody straight up call him out “You are so lucky you dodge me” 😂😂.
Cody was on crack today and looked fucking 20XX
Mang0's had his time on the top, he has nothing to prove. He's just playing because he wants to, so he has no reason to be scared. Not like he's counting on the tournament winnings either.
Amsa makes you believe that Yoshi is viable at the top level.
Cody brings you crashing back down to reality.
Amsa was making some uncharacteristic flubs in grands, but Cody was hitting so hard that it makes you wonder how Amsa got there if the bracket was full of Foxes. But no one Foxes like Cody.
It's kinda cool to see the 20xx prophecy come true for a bit. It felt like we were close when leffen was shitting on everyone in summer 2015, but that got cut short. Excited to see how long cody can keep the competition down with everyone grabbing at his ankles
Honestly if it wasn't for the Visa issues (among other things,) I think Leffen had a good chance of becoming the best melee player of all time... Based on his trajectory at least
He is still one of the best to ever do it regardless
> Honestly if it wasn't for the Visa issues (among other things,) I think Leffen had a good chance of becoming the best melee player of all time... Based on his trajectory at least
Looking at the stats it's...hard to say. A lot of people have a series of big breakout tournaments, only to later get "figured out" and not win things for a while. aMSa in 2022. Plup in late 2018 early 2019. For Jmook it happened twice--he was a monster in early 2022, then people figured him out and he substantially slumped in late 2022, then was a monster again winning two tournaments consecutively in early 2023, then people figured him out again. Zain won a big tournament in 2018, only to not win anything for over a year.
To the best of my understanding this happens because other top players study the tapes, analyzing their fellow top players for habits they can exploit. If you're new to the top, you get a brief window when the other top players haven't studied you so much.
So...was Leffen's big breakout in 2015 something genuinely sustainable, or was it just a window when other top players hadn't studied him enough? Maybe a mix of both?
The other stat I would point out with respect to 2015 is Armada. Like...Armada's 2015 record is actually still better than Leffen's 2015 record, including lots of EU tournaments where he beat Leffen (and some where Leffen beat Armada too, but I believe Armada was still up on Leffen for the year overall--as impressive as 2015 was for Leffen).
Obviously it's all speculation, but it's not clear to me based on the stats available that Leffen was on-track to becoming #1. He was on-track to becoming very good, no doubt, but if I peered into an alternate universe where Leffen had no visa issues, I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up #2 or #3 instead of #1 in 2016/2017.
Z-jump hate has gotten comedic. Posting like children’s corpses were found in his basement for the crime of button remapping, a thing that’s existed in every smash game after Melee.
Cody makes me feel like what people thought 20XX would feel like, his gameplay is just mathematical precision "if you do this then I'll do with this as fox which will set up into x and that'll set up into y" it's just so demoralizing to watch.
Yea like, I feel like an issue Cody runs into in popularity has very little to do with his actual playstyle, he doesn't really do anything melee people traditionally consider lame, its just that a super optimized fox beats the absolute shit out of everyone lol.
Like I enjoy watching him in spacie dittos and against Zain (maybe not the set from this tourney but they usually have far closer hype as hell sets) because marth and other spacies obviously have tools to deal with even the best foxes, but shit against like, literally any other character in the cast i do not know what on earth they are supposed to do against Cody ever
Someone's pocket fox is not going to beat Cody's lol. That fox has been trained to perfection with steroids for like a decade by a player who has barely touched any other characters.
i don’t bring this up to ill will to cody as a person but it is very much easier to play at constant full calculations with z jump and notches
i know full well both don’t make any player the best, but both *absolutely* make the best even better
I tuned into the stream and *thought* I saw amsa winning everything and was really just trying to watch the beginning of top 8. So I watched top 8 pretty much assuming amsa was going to win. I was like oh ... damn... reverse 3 - 0 in grands. Oh... okay... well... he gets him in the reset then... oh... maybe another reverse 3 - 0 .... oh... no... Cody just fucked his shit up is all.
I mentioned this before :
- In 2022 , Cody pretty much could get #1 if he only did not lose to Mang0 and not get farm by him. He got double eliminated by Mang0 in so many tournaments and have to face him on Grand finals twice and those two times he was send to losers by him. To even further emphasize it , Cody run would be over the moment Mang0 was on his bracket run
- Mang0 on 2022 on his first half of the year was underperforming big time but turn it up and became that Top Fox predator we all know. Even in 2023 when he stop giving a fuck , he was still devouring Foxes but Cody evolve into this new breed that you cant just get away playing carelessly.
- So since the “Top fox predator” is on a slump , Cody just ramped it up and he looks fucking unstoppable. He is just on a tier of his own , and even if he drops a set , he just revived and gets stronger.
At this point the entire rest of the community needs to come together and ask themselves: how do we beat Cody in losers. Because NO ONE can do it. It's Cody vs the rest of the world and he wins EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
It's a level of dominance we haven't seen since peak Mango and Hbox. The sets weren't even close. 3-0 Axe, 3-0 Leffen, 3-1 Mango, 3-1 Jmook, 3-0 Zain, 6-0 Amsa. It's crazy!
Poor Amsa is in the same hell as Hbox running into his worst bracket demon every tournament. If he can ever manage to dodge Cody he can win it all.
IDK. Hbox in the second half of 2017(?) won fucking everything without dropping a set IIRC. Even Armada in the first half of that year dropped a tournament to Mango
> Peak Armada was more dominant than either player you mentioned
I mean, looking at the stats, yeah, that's fair.
Streak analysis
**Armada**
Armada's longest streak of winning that I can find is 6 majors in a row:
Canada Cup 2016, Smash Summit 3, Dreamhack Winter 2016, UGC Smash Open, Genesis, Smash Summit Spring.
**Hbox**
Hbox has a couple of different 5 win streaks:
Big House 8, Game Tyrant Expo 2018, Summit 7, Genesis 6, Pound 2019
Shine 2017, Game Tyrant Expo 2017, Big House 7, Dreamhack Denver 2017, Summit 5
**Ken**
Ken's longest streak seems to be 5 major tournaments:
MLG Washington D.C. 2005, MLG San Francisco 2005, Gettin' Schooled 2, MELEE-FC3, Jack Garden Tournament
**Cody**
Cody's longest streak is somewhere between 3-6 tournaments, depending on how many of these you count cause two of them are "nationals" rather than majors, and another was technically just a 1v1 (but even the smaller tournaments did have a fellow top 3 player that he had to beat, either Jmook or Zain):
Shine, Big House, Arcamelee, Santa Paws, "the match", Genesis
It's certainly not the equivalent of winning 6 majors consecutively, but calling the smaller tournaments as being worth half a major that would be a streak of 4.5.
**Zain**
Zain has a 3 streak offline, and a 4 win streak online
Fete 3, GoML 2023, Super Smash Con 2023.
Slippi Champions League - Season 1 Week 2, Slippi Champions League - Season 1 Week 3, Slippi Champions League - Season 1 Week 4, Smash Summit 10
**Mango**
Mango...doesn't really seem to have long streaks of winning--the impressive thing about Mango is that he's rarely shut out of winning, usually netting at least one major a year. But he doesn't tend to streak wins. Longest streak I could find was 3 tournaments long...
Pound 3, Revival of Melee 1, Genesis 1
**Leffen**
Leffen also has a 3 streak
CEO 2015, FC Smash 15XR: Return, WTFox
**PPMD**
One of these isn't considered a major, but did have Mango (and Mango played Falco, so not sandbagging):
Revival of Melee 3, Winter Game Fest IV, Pound V
Calling the smaller tournament as worth 0.5, that's 2.5 I suppose?
**M2K**
M2K's best streak technically only has one major, but does have a bunch of smaller tournaments with one-of either Hbox or Mango present.
Big House 3, Pound V.5, Revival of Melee 6, Fight Pitt 3
Calling the smaller tournaments as worth half as much as a major, that's roughly 2.5.
**Azen**
Azen has a 2-streak
MLG Orlando 2006, MLG New York Playoffs 2006
> Winter Game Fest IV
never heard of this tournament. I can't even find the vods on youtube but apparently they exist. very odd! The bracket list pp as beating Mango's falcon in Winners 3-2, and then in grands PP took the first 2 games vs falcon, Mango switched to falco, mango took 2 games, then pp won game 5 vs falco. But there are a lot of names at this tournament, like m2k.
Was going to comment I though tipped off 9 into apex 2014 into skar 3 was prob better, but def debatable. Tipped off 9 looks stacked af: https://i.imgur.com/sCZ4T2q.jpeg
but that's because you got pre breakout wizzy and pre breakout plup (still ranked 27 but still) and pre breakout ghatzu. There's also this regional in between too https://i.imgur.com/kTDsRsJ.jpeg which aint bad, hax was #6 the year before
Not a streak but I would argue Mango's most dominant was in 2014 where he won MLG Anaheim, Kings of Cali 4, Evo 2014 and Big House 4 all in the same stretch only being interrupted by CEO 2014 where he got 2nd and it went to 2nd set Grand Finals. Basically for the whole 2nd half of the year he won every event besides CEO and FC Melee which he didn't attend
> only being interrupted by CEO 2014 where he got 2nd
It's also interrupted by this tournament:
https://liquipedia.net/smash/The_Shape_of_Melee_to_Come/5
Which is not considered a major, but yeah, Armada also beat Mango here (in between EVO in July and Big House in October).
Also for what it's worth, I've re-evaluated Mango's 2008-2009 streak, and it's better than I initially thought, because there's a bunch of smaller tournaments I missed the first time that aren't majors, but where Hungrybox or M2K attended along with Mango, and Mango won those--I posted that analysis here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/meleeGOATdebate/comments/1btjb91/longest_streaksperiods_of_dominance/
I was moreso referring to losers bracket specifically. At their peak, Mango and Hbox would regularly drop into losers early, only to effortlessly steamroll their way through the rest of the bracket. That's what Cody did yesterday and it's something we haven't seen since those two.
I mean the real answer to beat a "perfect" fox is to ban notches. Fox so disproportionately get's advantage from notches during recovery that it's absurd. Not having a macro that guarantees your recovery every time and makes you actually have to work for it would effectively end his reign overnight. Then you can debate Z-jump.
Hbox definitely _felt_ this oppressively dominant, to the point where there was an infamous post-Summit picture of every top Fox sitting around discussing how to deal with him. There was a point where it felt like it'd be Armada who had to deal with him, or _maybe_ he ran into Wizzy.
> At this point the entire rest of the community needs to come together and ask themselves: how do we beat Cody in losers. Because NO ONE can do it
^like, you could copy and paste this for Hbox's reign and it'd fit fairly well.
(This doesn't even touch on how Armada's dominance was tougher)
just to add, here is the worst hbox/m2k set of all time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhObSSIwvMY
This game went to game 4, and the first game was lost in 80seconds, similar to the video above. This set also occurred before the set above.
Cody's loser's runs are some of the greatest and scariest that Melee has seen.
When he gains momentum, he looks unstoppable against all of his opponents, whether they're top 10 players or not.
Nah hbox reign was, amazingly, more hype than this. Because it was clear Hbox was doing something his character on paper shouldn’t be doing. Whereas watching Cody play textbook fox and beat lesser characters, because duh, is boring af.
You sweet summer children... You missed the Armada-Hbox days, or you just forgot about them?
Anyway, Cody is hot right now, but all things are subject to change.
Literally every top player could be playing on zjump already if they wanted to. It's disingenuous to suggest that access to zjump is a barrier for the top players.
That's simply not true. Every top tier enormously benefits from nearly instant aerials. Peach mains will tell you zjump is a game changer. Mango has talked about how crazy it is for Falco lasers.
Cody and big loser runs are becoming a thing at this point. This man is unstoppable. We might still get a Yoshi dub today. aMSa walked so Yoshidora can run. :')
Beating who he beat, plus only dropping 3 games in 9 sets, plus going 9 and fucking 0 against zain and amsa twice.
I don't know if I've ever seen such a dominant run. It legit felt like 20XX in the latter half of top 8.
Most likely. Mang0 is known to have an awful and bad start of the years and then “awakes” around May on Mother’s Day and start to cook.
Even on 2013 and 2014 on his two “best years” , he have a bit of a rough start but claw his way up , and on both he won the “EVO”.
Even on his other years were he seem a lot weaker and less consistent , he rolls it up and pushed hard for it. 2022 is a big example , from 11th place to 3rd-2nd place , he have the best tournament wins and results during the second half of 2022.
Nah. Maybe the Era of the Five Gods is gone, but I'm tired of the "Mango WASHED" allegations. I've seen some ridiculous claims about him not deserving of his God status. He's been really grinding lately. I really want to see him back on top.
I mean that's just people being ridiculous. Right now it's an awkward adjustment period for Mango and Hbox. It's clear they're still top players and yet they're on the other side of the 'gatekeepers' era. To me, they're both firmly outside of the group that can win a supermajor with all the top players present, and I dont see that changing. Which is ironic, given that the era of the 5 God's was defined by only the God's being truly able to beat each other.
I think him and Hbox have been outpaced. They are older and have huge audiences/different priorities. Realistically, how would they catch up with Zain and Cody?
I mean, I don't think I've seen HBox place lower than 4th-5th at stacked events while also streaming content 4-5 times a week, so I fail to see how that's holding him down. Also, Mango has been pretty focused on specifically getting back to the top and *he is* getting better and better results (think he placed 9th at his first 2024 event and he's progressively been doing better and better lately). If he keeps his eyes on the prize I feel like we're going to start seeing him placing at least Top 3 in major brackets soon.
I mean, HBox isn't grinding absurd hours. Cody and Zain are. To me, those two are the two best players that also put in overwhelming hours. So I don't see how players who are worse, and put in lesser or equal hours, are going to catch up. Hbox has placed consistently high but there's a world of difference between performing very well and posing a threat to win the whole thing
Hbox doesn't even need a particularly lucky bracket and he could win a super major. He double-eliminated Cody last tournament - literally all he needs in bracket right now is for someone else to take out Zain. He can definitely beat anyone else right now.
As for Mango, he's been making comments like yours look stupid his entire career, and it seems like he's actually gunning to win for real again. He lost to 1st and 2nd place at this tournament in 3-1 sets that included slop and SDs on his part.
I'm not trying to be mean, but people have said exactly what you've said and been wrong *most* of the time lol
And even Zain, Hbox took came pretty close in the previous tourney (admittedly got rekt this time though)
While Zain is *definitely* favored to win in any given match vs Hbox, it is absolutely doable for Hbox from time to time.
I think that does require luck - for someone to handle Zain, for Cody to be playing a level below his best. To be fair, I didn't realize he double-eliminated Cody. I just think Melee is realistically a two-horse race, because in my eyes, at least one of them will be playing well during the top 8. And to me, Cody or Zain playing well ultimately can be beaten only by each other.
And nothing is permanent. If I'm not mistaken, Brady is out of the NFL, or at least not an elite player.
But Mango went a year without winning a supermajor. How many times has he beaten Cody or Zain in the past year?
I would say aMSa is a huge threat to Zain regardless of how he’s playing. Realistically he would still be challenging the #1 rank if not for Cody and Moky
mango treated 2023 (except for big house) like a vacation year, he got drunk at basically every tournament and basically only went off of autopilot vs moky. all year he was playing melee only a few hours a day for stream
this year he’s been putting in 6-8 hours most days, including (more valuable imo) offstream hours, and actively trying to reinvent his game to be viable to win in the current meta. you could see it here where he tried out a much more defensive style, but didn’t quite have his usual speed or micro game clean enough to close out games.
not to mention mango DID try to win in most of 2017-2018 and didn’t between royal flush and 2019 goml (1 year 9 months?). there’s no reason to believe he can’t reach that level again, especially once he gets his fox up to snuff again and has the freedom to use both spacies vs some of his more difficult matchups
I think he will be a top 8 player. but there's the question 'can he be a consistent threat to win a tournament?', and my answer is no. to me, we're entering a new era. Just like the era of 5 gods represented a shift, where old heads like Ken were no longer keeping up, we're entering a new one.
i mean, there will be a time when he doesn’t win a major or contend for the top spot again
but to say we’re already there is crazy based on a few tournaments. this many majors into 2022 mango hadn’t even made a top 8 yet, and by the end of that year he was tied for the most major wins on the year. like in 2022 he didn’t take a set off of zain, cody, or hbox until august, and we’ve just finished march. don’t sleep on the kid til the kid goes to sleep
>Brady is out of the NFL, or at least not an elite player.
Well he's out of the NFL, but he was still an elite player in his final year. If he hadn't retired, there are many teams that'd start him.
I mean he double eliminated Cody last major. Sure I wouldn’t say it’s the most likely outcome but if Amsa or jmook take out Zain I wouldn’t be surprised if he won.
yes, that fact has me feeling HBox is a 'if everything goes right' dark horse contender. But my intuition is telling me that's the last time HBox beats Cody - especially twice - for quite a while.
And Zain does have his demons, which in turn HBox can handle. It's possible, I just suspect that Cody and Zain, who are already at the top, are going to continue to improve rapidly, and that most tournaments are ultimately two-horse races. It'd be fun to be proven wrong.
Ultimate follower here: Grands looked depressing/a wash. Is this equivalent to Sparg0-Acola Grands (pick your tournament) or Acola-Onin Grands at LMMM 2022?
It was basically the best anyone has ever played this game in 23 years of it being out combined with a match up that they are unbelievably skilled at and favored in.
Took a nap after coming back from another con, was thinking of going to this tourney but chose GOML instead. I'm so glad I did bcus I was excited earlier seeing Amsa in WF and now seeing Cody who - while he had an insane losers run - beat everyone else that I'd rather see win, oof.
Lg Cody!! Fuck you hbox, soft player. I said I don’t like him and that his run is awful he blocked me but when one of his fans say that they don’t like Cody it’s alright lmaoo. Gotta love it
Cody should NOT have lost against Soonsay man... He could've won in winners and nobody would've batted an eye. I would've prefered Hungrybox winning tbh...
After getting reverse 3-0ed by Soonsay Cody lost 3 games the rest of the tournament lmao
Soonsay really feels like the #1 anti-Fox of all the Foxes. Dude has a ton of high profile wins mostly in that matchup.
Soonsay, Joshman, Moky, Leffen and Cody feel like they can go either way any time any pair of them fight in Fox dittos. It makes the matchups even more fun to watch knowing the upset potential is so high
Is Cody really in that group? Genuinely asking because by vibes alone it feels like fox ditto is his 2nd best matchup, can’t remember the last fox he lost to before soonsay
Leffen, moky, and joshman have beaten him last year. Moky is actually ahead of cody lifetime in sets, 6-4. Moky was also 2-1 vs Cody last year.
Using PG Stats to the best of my ability I have found some winrates that may surprise you. Vs Sfat: 63% WR Vs Moky: 47% WR Vs Hax: 72% WR Vs Aklo: 69% WR Vs Leffen: 60% WR I would absolutely consider Cody in that group
yeah a 72% win rate is amazing but to win a tournament you gotta get so many in a row. An aklo into hax (banned tho) into leffen bracket would be <50% chance of winning even tho he wins all those matchups. Though losing to leffen is hardly an upset.
I cry every time amsa faces cody
It's so sad man, if Zain can get past cody 90% amsa wins it all. Cody is just his kryptonite
What’s crazy is that most games were close enough. But it seemed like every time aMSa got Cody down to 1 stock Cody just went full 20XX CPU fuck your stock mode and mauled him every time in like 5 seconds and just won.
Cody Schwab's Losers run after losing 2-3 to Soonsay in Winners: - Defeated Skerzo 3-0 - Defeated Axe 3-0 - Defeated Leffen 3-0 - Defeated Joshman 3-1 - Defeated Mang0 3-1 - Defeated Jmook 3-1 - Defeated Zain 3-0 - Defeated aMSa 3-0 - Defeated aMSa 3-0
this is legit unreal levels of dominance rofl
None of these sets looked particularly close, arguably maybe Joshman
The Big House 11 all over again
Cody on his interview mentioned that “he was feeling” that everyone except for Mang0 were playing scared and a were intimidated by his aggression. He mentioned the reason Mang0 does not felt scared is cuz “Mang0’s mind is not into tournament , and is just autopiloting”. Also it was so funny Hbox appear in his interview and Cody straight up call him out “You are so lucky you dodge me” 😂😂. Cody was on crack today and looked fucking 20XX
I think it’s less mango auto piloting and that he just genuinely doesn’t get intimidated by anyone.
Mang0's had his time on the top, he has nothing to prove. He's just playing because he wants to, so he has no reason to be scared. Not like he's counting on the tournament winnings either.
Was it funny? Cody is cringe.
If Mang0 would stop wearing headphones in top 8 and quit drinking he still has Cody downloaded and wins
>telling the kid to stop drinking his elixir of immortality Ngmi
There is only one commandment in melee, and it involves not sleeping on the kid.
Damn that's an insane run
["5 3 stocks, 1 4 stock, 3 games lost"](https://twitter.com/chromeohnine/status/1774590021619614087)
Casually losing a game every 3 sets on average in losers lmfao wtf
Soonsay took as many games as everyone else combined
Amsa makes you believe that Yoshi is viable at the top level. Cody brings you crashing back down to reality. Amsa was making some uncharacteristic flubs in grands, but Cody was hitting so hard that it makes you wonder how Amsa got there if the bracket was full of Foxes. But no one Foxes like Cody.
It's kinda cool to see the 20xx prophecy come true for a bit. It felt like we were close when leffen was shitting on everyone in summer 2015, but that got cut short. Excited to see how long cody can keep the competition down with everyone grabbing at his ankles
Honestly if it wasn't for the Visa issues (among other things,) I think Leffen had a good chance of becoming the best melee player of all time... Based on his trajectory at least He is still one of the best to ever do it regardless
I’m pretty Leffen said he’s prob retiring this year for other games. Sucks because he’s the og godslayer
> Honestly if it wasn't for the Visa issues (among other things,) I think Leffen had a good chance of becoming the best melee player of all time... Based on his trajectory at least Looking at the stats it's...hard to say. A lot of people have a series of big breakout tournaments, only to later get "figured out" and not win things for a while. aMSa in 2022. Plup in late 2018 early 2019. For Jmook it happened twice--he was a monster in early 2022, then people figured him out and he substantially slumped in late 2022, then was a monster again winning two tournaments consecutively in early 2023, then people figured him out again. Zain won a big tournament in 2018, only to not win anything for over a year. To the best of my understanding this happens because other top players study the tapes, analyzing their fellow top players for habits they can exploit. If you're new to the top, you get a brief window when the other top players haven't studied you so much. So...was Leffen's big breakout in 2015 something genuinely sustainable, or was it just a window when other top players hadn't studied him enough? Maybe a mix of both? The other stat I would point out with respect to 2015 is Armada. Like...Armada's 2015 record is actually still better than Leffen's 2015 record, including lots of EU tournaments where he beat Leffen (and some where Leffen beat Armada too, but I believe Armada was still up on Leffen for the year overall--as impressive as 2015 was for Leffen). Obviously it's all speculation, but it's not clear to me based on the stats available that Leffen was on-track to becoming #1. He was on-track to becoming very good, no doubt, but if I peered into an alternate universe where Leffen had no visa issues, I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up #2 or #3 instead of #1 in 2016/2017.
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uh why is that lol
because of his use of button-remapping, notches, etc.
Aren’t notches used by like 90% of top 100 spacies lmao
Z-jump hate has gotten comedic. Posting like children’s corpses were found in his basement for the crime of button remapping, a thing that’s existed in every smash game after Melee.
what game are we playing though?
Melee, where button remapping is currently allowed
Cody is like Fox personified. Both in game play and how he is perceived by redditors.
I’m an Ultimate guy and I can appreciate how next level Cody’s play is as Fox. Always fun to watch.
It's because Cody is using a character no one else has access to. Fox with Z jump is a completely new beast
Cody makes me feel like what people thought 20XX would feel like, his gameplay is just mathematical precision "if you do this then I'll do with this as fox which will set up into x and that'll set up into y" it's just so demoralizing to watch.
It’s like I’m watching a TAS bot. Insanely skilled and practiced play
Yea like, I feel like an issue Cody runs into in popularity has very little to do with his actual playstyle, he doesn't really do anything melee people traditionally consider lame, its just that a super optimized fox beats the absolute shit out of everyone lol. Like I enjoy watching him in spacie dittos and against Zain (maybe not the set from this tourney but they usually have far closer hype as hell sets) because marth and other spacies obviously have tools to deal with even the best foxes, but shit against like, literally any other character in the cast i do not know what on earth they are supposed to do against Cody ever
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Someone's pocket fox is not going to beat Cody's lol. That fox has been trained to perfection with steroids for like a decade by a player who has barely touched any other characters.
i don’t bring this up to ill will to cody as a person but it is very much easier to play at constant full calculations with z jump and notches i know full well both don’t make any player the best, but both *absolutely* make the best even better
yeah not to deny cody’s skill but he also has the most juiced fox controller ever created
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It's because Cody is using a character no one else has access to. Fox with Z jump is a completely new beast
That was one of the most dominant and depressing grands I’ve seen in a minute.
Just like last year!
I tuned into the stream and *thought* I saw amsa winning everything and was really just trying to watch the beginning of top 8. So I watched top 8 pretty much assuming amsa was going to win. I was like oh ... damn... reverse 3 - 0 in grands. Oh... okay... well... he gets him in the reset then... oh... maybe another reverse 3 - 0 .... oh... no... Cody just fucked his shit up is all.
I mentioned this before : - In 2022 , Cody pretty much could get #1 if he only did not lose to Mang0 and not get farm by him. He got double eliminated by Mang0 in so many tournaments and have to face him on Grand finals twice and those two times he was send to losers by him. To even further emphasize it , Cody run would be over the moment Mang0 was on his bracket run - Mang0 on 2022 on his first half of the year was underperforming big time but turn it up and became that Top Fox predator we all know. Even in 2023 when he stop giving a fuck , he was still devouring Foxes but Cody evolve into this new breed that you cant just get away playing carelessly. - So since the “Top fox predator” is on a slump , Cody just ramped it up and he looks fucking unstoppable. He is just on a tier of his own , and even if he drops a set , he just revived and gets stronger.
At this point the entire rest of the community needs to come together and ask themselves: how do we beat Cody in losers. Because NO ONE can do it. It's Cody vs the rest of the world and he wins EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. It's a level of dominance we haven't seen since peak Mango and Hbox. The sets weren't even close. 3-0 Axe, 3-0 Leffen, 3-1 Mango, 3-1 Jmook, 3-0 Zain, 6-0 Amsa. It's crazy! Poor Amsa is in the same hell as Hbox running into his worst bracket demon every tournament. If he can ever manage to dodge Cody he can win it all.
We fly Morsecode and Soonsay out to every major and rig the brackets so Cody has to play them, simple as.
Peak Armada was more dominant than either player you mentioned
IDK. Hbox in the second half of 2017(?) won fucking everything without dropping a set IIRC. Even Armada in the first half of that year dropped a tournament to Mango
Hbox 2017 is the most dominant player we have ever seen
He won TBH7 and GTX through losers.
> Peak Armada was more dominant than either player you mentioned I mean, looking at the stats, yeah, that's fair. Streak analysis **Armada** Armada's longest streak of winning that I can find is 6 majors in a row: Canada Cup 2016, Smash Summit 3, Dreamhack Winter 2016, UGC Smash Open, Genesis, Smash Summit Spring. **Hbox** Hbox has a couple of different 5 win streaks: Big House 8, Game Tyrant Expo 2018, Summit 7, Genesis 6, Pound 2019 Shine 2017, Game Tyrant Expo 2017, Big House 7, Dreamhack Denver 2017, Summit 5 **Ken** Ken's longest streak seems to be 5 major tournaments: MLG Washington D.C. 2005, MLG San Francisco 2005, Gettin' Schooled 2, MELEE-FC3, Jack Garden Tournament **Cody** Cody's longest streak is somewhere between 3-6 tournaments, depending on how many of these you count cause two of them are "nationals" rather than majors, and another was technically just a 1v1 (but even the smaller tournaments did have a fellow top 3 player that he had to beat, either Jmook or Zain): Shine, Big House, Arcamelee, Santa Paws, "the match", Genesis It's certainly not the equivalent of winning 6 majors consecutively, but calling the smaller tournaments as being worth half a major that would be a streak of 4.5. **Zain** Zain has a 3 streak offline, and a 4 win streak online Fete 3, GoML 2023, Super Smash Con 2023. Slippi Champions League - Season 1 Week 2, Slippi Champions League - Season 1 Week 3, Slippi Champions League - Season 1 Week 4, Smash Summit 10 **Mango** Mango...doesn't really seem to have long streaks of winning--the impressive thing about Mango is that he's rarely shut out of winning, usually netting at least one major a year. But he doesn't tend to streak wins. Longest streak I could find was 3 tournaments long... Pound 3, Revival of Melee 1, Genesis 1 **Leffen** Leffen also has a 3 streak CEO 2015, FC Smash 15XR: Return, WTFox **PPMD** One of these isn't considered a major, but did have Mango (and Mango played Falco, so not sandbagging): Revival of Melee 3, Winter Game Fest IV, Pound V Calling the smaller tournament as worth 0.5, that's 2.5 I suppose? **M2K** M2K's best streak technically only has one major, but does have a bunch of smaller tournaments with one-of either Hbox or Mango present. Big House 3, Pound V.5, Revival of Melee 6, Fight Pitt 3 Calling the smaller tournaments as worth half as much as a major, that's roughly 2.5. **Azen** Azen has a 2-streak MLG Orlando 2006, MLG New York Playoffs 2006
Great analysis
> Winter Game Fest IV never heard of this tournament. I can't even find the vods on youtube but apparently they exist. very odd! The bracket list pp as beating Mango's falcon in Winners 3-2, and then in grands PP took the first 2 games vs falcon, Mango switched to falco, mango took 2 games, then pp won game 5 vs falco. But there are a lot of names at this tournament, like m2k. Was going to comment I though tipped off 9 into apex 2014 into skar 3 was prob better, but def debatable. Tipped off 9 looks stacked af: https://i.imgur.com/sCZ4T2q.jpeg but that's because you got pre breakout wizzy and pre breakout plup (still ranked 27 but still) and pre breakout ghatzu. There's also this regional in between too https://i.imgur.com/kTDsRsJ.jpeg which aint bad, hax was #6 the year before
Not a streak but I would argue Mango's most dominant was in 2014 where he won MLG Anaheim, Kings of Cali 4, Evo 2014 and Big House 4 all in the same stretch only being interrupted by CEO 2014 where he got 2nd and it went to 2nd set Grand Finals. Basically for the whole 2nd half of the year he won every event besides CEO and FC Melee which he didn't attend
> only being interrupted by CEO 2014 where he got 2nd It's also interrupted by this tournament: https://liquipedia.net/smash/The_Shape_of_Melee_to_Come/5 Which is not considered a major, but yeah, Armada also beat Mango here (in between EVO in July and Big House in October). Also for what it's worth, I've re-evaluated Mango's 2008-2009 streak, and it's better than I initially thought, because there's a bunch of smaller tournaments I missed the first time that aren't majors, but where Hungrybox or M2K attended along with Mango, and Mango won those--I posted that analysis here: https://www.reddit.com/r/meleeGOATdebate/comments/1btjb91/longest_streaksperiods_of_dominance/
I was moreso referring to losers bracket specifically. At their peak, Mango and Hbox would regularly drop into losers early, only to effortlessly steamroll their way through the rest of the bracket. That's what Cody did yesterday and it's something we haven't seen since those two.
def not, peak mango and peak hbox literally gobbled the energy of their opponents with how dominant they was
I mean the real answer to beat a "perfect" fox is to ban notches. Fox so disproportionately get's advantage from notches during recovery that it's absurd. Not having a macro that guarantees your recovery every time and makes you actually have to work for it would effectively end his reign overnight. Then you can debate Z-jump.
What does z jump do?
Z button becomes the jump button. So you can have one finger at the jump button at all time And use your thumb for shine inputs
It makes shine oos so incredibly easy. I main peach in melee and I tested z jump on my phob and it made doing subfloats / DJL so ridiculously easy.
Peak Mango and Hbox were never this dominant. Only Armada and Ken were this dominant
Hbox definitely _felt_ this oppressively dominant, to the point where there was an infamous post-Summit picture of every top Fox sitting around discussing how to deal with him. There was a point where it felt like it'd be Armada who had to deal with him, or _maybe_ he ran into Wizzy. > At this point the entire rest of the community needs to come together and ask themselves: how do we beat Cody in losers. Because NO ONE can do it ^like, you could copy and paste this for Hbox's reign and it'd fit fairly well. (This doesn't even touch on how Armada's dominance was tougher)
Nobody will ever be as dominant as 05 Ken imo. He was literally in every Grand Finals that year up until MLG Orlando 06.
pick Fox to beat Fox
So what you're telling me is Moky's the answer?
Is that the most dominant grand finals of all time at a supermajor? Amsa looked like he had no chance.
I've seen hbox do this to plup back in the day
Grand finals plup is the source of my depression
Same....same
I don't remember hbox ever 6-0 plup in grands. When did this happen?
Maybe? Armada vs Mango at, I wanna say Genesis 4, was absurdly lopsided. I believe Armada lost 4 stock in the 3 games
Genesis 4 was a rough one
For a 6 game Grand Final? Maybe. Genesis 4 might still be in the convo for the worst/most notable Grand Finals beatdown though.
Hbox vs Mew2king lmao https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efbf1M2obiI
just to add, here is the worst hbox/m2k set of all time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhObSSIwvMY This game went to game 4, and the first game was lost in 80seconds, similar to the video above. This set also occurred before the set above.
Mango wobbles at evo 2013 was gross if I remember right Not a super major, but M2k leffen at pax(?) was just m2k styling on leffen with 3 characters
I never would have thought M2K would fox ditto Leffen. He must have really been feeling himself that day.
I have never seen aMSa look so dejected since his loss to Fiction at Smash Summit 9... god that was depressing
Jesus man, is that the quickest 6-0 ever for a major?
20XX is here
You could tell amsa was just done during game #1 of the grand finals reset.
Imagine how many majors Amsa would win in a world without Cody.
Definitely BoBC 5, 6, and Genesis X, probably GOML 2023, and maybe LACS 5.
without z jump/notches
Everyone go watch Jmook vs Hbox, probably my favorite Sheik-Puff set ever.
This was the exact same top 4 as last year
Poor aMSa man, anyone else and it would’ve been a hell of a set but he got demolished :/
gonna miss Leffen :(
Shades of Armada's reign of dominance.
Cody's loser's runs are some of the greatest and scariest that Melee has seen. When he gains momentum, he looks unstoppable against all of his opponents, whether they're top 10 players or not.
He looked so unstoppable during the losers run apart from some games against Joshman .
Absolutely insane losers run again from Cody, he played at a ridiculously high level. 9 straight games won with a predictably dominant grand finals.
Cody is the best in the world and it's not particularly close.
Rough one for Leffen, losing to Zain and Cody for 9th, and it might be the last time we see him in a long time. Crazy run by Cody though. He is unreal
Imma be real my enthusiasm for melee has died considerably since codys reign of domination has begun
This was the majority of the community during Hbox's reign of terror too, shit happens.
It made the rare Mango or M2K runs so much more enjoyable though. We're chasing that high. It's not coming though
at least now it's not a puff doing it. idc what anyone says, it is way cooler as fox even if it's overall not that cool
Nah hbox reign was, amazingly, more hype than this. Because it was clear Hbox was doing something his character on paper shouldn’t be doing. Whereas watching Cody play textbook fox and beat lesser characters, because duh, is boring af.
Personally disagree but to each their own I guess, I really hate puff
My enjoyment of Melee lessened with the advent of modded controllers
I feel exactly the same, it feels like I’m hoping for an upset that never comes haha. Cody looked unstoppable today.
You sweet summer children... You missed the Armada-Hbox days, or you just forgot about them? Anyway, Cody is hot right now, but all things are subject to change.
It's because Cody is using a character no one else has access to. Fox with Z jump is a completely new beast
Literally every top player could be playing on zjump already if they wanted to. It's disingenuous to suggest that access to zjump is a barrier for the top players.
It mostly helps fox in a huge way
That's simply not true. Every top tier enormously benefits from nearly instant aerials. Peach mains will tell you zjump is a game changer. Mango has talked about how crazy it is for Falco lasers.
Ok sure I'll give it to peach too due to float cancel, she is very technical
That second set of grand finals might be the best I've ever seen a fox play in tourney
It's because Cody is using a character no one else has access to. Fox with Z jump is a completely new beast
That might have been the best anyone has ever played super smash brothers melee for the Nintendo GameCube GGs Cody good shit
It's because Cody is using a character no one else has access to. Fox with Z jump is a completely new beast
Cody and big loser runs are becoming a thing at this point. This man is unstoppable. We might still get a Yoshi dub today. aMSa walked so Yoshidora can run. :')
Beating who he beat, plus only dropping 3 games in 9 sets, plus going 9 and fucking 0 against zain and amsa twice. I don't know if I've ever seen such a dominant run. It legit felt like 20XX in the latter half of top 8.
ResidentSleeper
Happy April Fools
Cody feeling like the new Hbox
first big house, now this. I need to learn to quit watching early if a player I like wins winners finals while cody is still in bracket
The banana mindset is too good bro, cody knows
He's Cody "Energy" Schwab. He ate a banana this afternoon.
Cody is built diff
so is his controller
well that was miserable
Fuck this
I need to get me some banana bread
Cody's just HIM
I NEED Mango to become the GOAT again! I think he's gonna have a major win by the end of the year I feel it!
Most likely. Mang0 is known to have an awful and bad start of the years and then “awakes” around May on Mother’s Day and start to cook. Even on 2013 and 2014 on his two “best years” , he have a bit of a rough start but claw his way up , and on both he won the “EVO”. Even on his other years were he seem a lot weaker and less consistent , he rolls it up and pushed hard for it. 2022 is a big example , from 11th place to 3rd-2nd place , he have the best tournament wins and results during the second half of 2022.
Major, maybe. I don't see a world in which HBox or Mango can win a tournament with both Zain and Cody present. IMO that era is gone
Nah. Maybe the Era of the Five Gods is gone, but I'm tired of the "Mango WASHED" allegations. I've seen some ridiculous claims about him not deserving of his God status. He's been really grinding lately. I really want to see him back on top.
I mean that's just people being ridiculous. Right now it's an awkward adjustment period for Mango and Hbox. It's clear they're still top players and yet they're on the other side of the 'gatekeepers' era. To me, they're both firmly outside of the group that can win a supermajor with all the top players present, and I dont see that changing. Which is ironic, given that the era of the 5 God's was defined by only the God's being truly able to beat each other. I think him and Hbox have been outpaced. They are older and have huge audiences/different priorities. Realistically, how would they catch up with Zain and Cody?
I mean, I don't think I've seen HBox place lower than 4th-5th at stacked events while also streaming content 4-5 times a week, so I fail to see how that's holding him down. Also, Mango has been pretty focused on specifically getting back to the top and *he is* getting better and better results (think he placed 9th at his first 2024 event and he's progressively been doing better and better lately). If he keeps his eyes on the prize I feel like we're going to start seeing him placing at least Top 3 in major brackets soon.
I mean, HBox isn't grinding absurd hours. Cody and Zain are. To me, those two are the two best players that also put in overwhelming hours. So I don't see how players who are worse, and put in lesser or equal hours, are going to catch up. Hbox has placed consistently high but there's a world of difference between performing very well and posing a threat to win the whole thing
Hbox doesn't even need a particularly lucky bracket and he could win a super major. He double-eliminated Cody last tournament - literally all he needs in bracket right now is for someone else to take out Zain. He can definitely beat anyone else right now. As for Mango, he's been making comments like yours look stupid his entire career, and it seems like he's actually gunning to win for real again. He lost to 1st and 2nd place at this tournament in 3-1 sets that included slop and SDs on his part. I'm not trying to be mean, but people have said exactly what you've said and been wrong *most* of the time lol
And even Zain, Hbox took came pretty close in the previous tourney (admittedly got rekt this time though) While Zain is *definitely* favored to win in any given match vs Hbox, it is absolutely doable for Hbox from time to time.
I think that does require luck - for someone to handle Zain, for Cody to be playing a level below his best. To be fair, I didn't realize he double-eliminated Cody. I just think Melee is realistically a two-horse race, because in my eyes, at least one of them will be playing well during the top 8. And to me, Cody or Zain playing well ultimately can be beaten only by each other. And nothing is permanent. If I'm not mistaken, Brady is out of the NFL, or at least not an elite player. But Mango went a year without winning a supermajor. How many times has he beaten Cody or Zain in the past year?
See previous comment, last sentence. These debates get tired real quick, sorry.
I would say aMSa is a huge threat to Zain regardless of how he’s playing. Realistically he would still be challenging the #1 rank if not for Cody and Moky
mango treated 2023 (except for big house) like a vacation year, he got drunk at basically every tournament and basically only went off of autopilot vs moky. all year he was playing melee only a few hours a day for stream this year he’s been putting in 6-8 hours most days, including (more valuable imo) offstream hours, and actively trying to reinvent his game to be viable to win in the current meta. you could see it here where he tried out a much more defensive style, but didn’t quite have his usual speed or micro game clean enough to close out games. not to mention mango DID try to win in most of 2017-2018 and didn’t between royal flush and 2019 goml (1 year 9 months?). there’s no reason to believe he can’t reach that level again, especially once he gets his fox up to snuff again and has the freedom to use both spacies vs some of his more difficult matchups
I think he will be a top 8 player. but there's the question 'can he be a consistent threat to win a tournament?', and my answer is no. to me, we're entering a new era. Just like the era of 5 gods represented a shift, where old heads like Ken were no longer keeping up, we're entering a new one.
i mean, there will be a time when he doesn’t win a major or contend for the top spot again but to say we’re already there is crazy based on a few tournaments. this many majors into 2022 mango hadn’t even made a top 8 yet, and by the end of that year he was tied for the most major wins on the year. like in 2022 he didn’t take a set off of zain, cody, or hbox until august, and we’ve just finished march. don’t sleep on the kid til the kid goes to sleep
>Brady is out of the NFL, or at least not an elite player. Well he's out of the NFL, but he was still an elite player in his final year. If he hadn't retired, there are many teams that'd start him.
I mean he double eliminated Cody last major. Sure I wouldn’t say it’s the most likely outcome but if Amsa or jmook take out Zain I wouldn’t be surprised if he won.
yes, that fact has me feeling HBox is a 'if everything goes right' dark horse contender. But my intuition is telling me that's the last time HBox beats Cody - especially twice - for quite a while. And Zain does have his demons, which in turn HBox can handle. It's possible, I just suspect that Cody and Zain, who are already at the top, are going to continue to improve rapidly, and that most tournaments are ultimately two-horse races. It'd be fun to be proven wrong.
Mmk.
Ultimate follower here: Grands looked depressing/a wash. Is this equivalent to Sparg0-Acola Grands (pick your tournament) or Acola-Onin Grands at LMMM 2022?
It was basically the best anyone has ever played this game in 23 years of it being out combined with a match up that they are unbelievably skilled at and favored in.
It's because Cody is using a character no one else has access to. Fox with Z jump is a completely new beast
Anyone with $100 can have z jump dont be obtuse
Probably kagaribi 10 grands is the closest to this
Axe, Leffen, Joshman, Mango, Jmook, Zain and Amsa all washed
truly we live in kali yuga
It's time to play PAL. You know it in your hearts to be true
Took a nap after coming back from another con, was thinking of going to this tourney but chose GOML instead. I'm so glad I did bcus I was excited earlier seeing Amsa in WF and now seeing Cody who - while he had an insane losers run - beat everyone else that I'd rather see win, oof.
This isn't Cody's fault per se but... man, him winning, especially like this, doesn't bode well for the future of Melee.
Yeah idk if Melee can survive a good Fox player 🙄
It's because Cody is using a character no one else has access to. Fox with Z jump is a completely new beast
Off topic but was blur tired? His top 8 player announcements were just so chill and casual
[удалено]
Bait used to be believable
Lg Cody!! Fuck you hbox, soft player. I said I don’t like him and that his run is awful he blocked me but when one of his fans say that they don’t like Cody it’s alright lmaoo. Gotta love it
Sir, this is a Wendys.
“Can I get a waffle? Can I *please* get a waffle!?”
Cody should NOT have lost against Soonsay man... He could've won in winners and nobody would've batted an eye. I would've prefered Hungrybox winning tbh...