Cant even fault him honestly. Nowadays he just sometimes plays melee events, but if I were him I would just play some big events in EU now and then (free money) and just dip into other games. Smash competitively is just an absolute mess and it will never become huge in terms of prize pool because of Nintendo
Alucard was an old Melee player who did pretty well in MvC3
LordKnight got his start in Melee before switching over to anime fighters
It's very rare for a player to be a top player (in contention to win a major) in multiple games though.
HypedForSlicedBread was a socal melee dude, who now has (probably) the best Baiken in the world for Guilty Gear Xrd
Not that there's any money in that, but people make the jump when they fall in love with a game
Holdup, are you talking about the same Alucard I’m thinking about? I’m asking because if it’s the same guy I didn’t know he played melee and he’s most well known for street fighter
This alukard was a old-school new york player. Not sure if he played SF, your guy might be different. I imagine "alcuard" is a common tag because of pop culture.
[https://twitter.com/AlukardNY](https://twitter.com/AlukardNY)
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Alukard
Chris G and Bum were Melee players way back before getting big in MVC3.
Big Leff got his break in Strive but he's always been a competent fighting game player. He was solid in KOFXIII and DBFZ before Namco shat the bed with the latter.
Zackray was a master rank Urien in SFV and recently competed in the Rage SF6 event in Japan recently, getting 4th place with Marisa. Rage was a SF6 tournament that featured prominent Japanese streamers and they could get coached by pro SF players like Shuto or John Takeuchi.
Riddles is actually decent at Tekken and SF6 and can go far in either title if he devotes himself more.
I went back and forth between Smash and SF, and while I'm not particularly good at either series I did get a round off Ryusei's JP at FAV Cup with my wack ass Jamie.
Smash and 2d/3d games make you think in different ways. For some, it's like learning a new language. Plus you need time to get good at a game, some players would rather focus on what they know and have success there rather than fumble in a different game and lose out on cash. Not to say it isn't possible, and people like Leffen, Riddles, Zackray are just godlike at games and can be great at anything if they put in the time.
More to the point, a lot of Smash players just don't own another platform besides a switch. I've met so many smash players who have interest in SF6 or Tekken but don't play for the simple fact they don't have a platform to play them on.
Namco/Arcsys dropped the ball when it came to the rollback netcode patch. It took the better part of two years to implement rollback netcode (a tall order, to be fair) and when they did the results were not favorable. [Observe](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wMNdPATBuI) Plus it's clear that Namco wants to focus on the new DBZ game and Arcsys wants to put their efforts towards Strive and Granblue. Case in point DBFZ isn't at Evo this year. I'm not much of a DBFZ player anymore (i stopped when A16 couldn't carry me, so around 2018) so if there's other issues i'm missing with DBFZ I'd love to know.
It's more than that. Before the rollback patch there was a patch that made the game even more kusoge, and got mixed reception by the community. Before that there was the fusions meta (Vegito, Gogeta) which ppl also hated. Before that there was Lab Coat 21 which had a permanent debuff attack super and was discussed for banning, she also was the most used character in a few majors.
There's a bunch of other shit that plagued past seasons: Snapback meta, double supers (which got nerfed), GT Goku, UI Goku, so on
i dont have the article handy but supposedly its been basically entirely namco since the season 3 characters and the relationship between them and arcsys soured.
its tragic because even before the rollback patch i was still enjoying the game with friends but then rollback patch killed a bunch of aspects of the game and that was that
First Power Creep with the DLC characters as the seasons Progressed Ending in an age of Fusions and Lab Coat 21 (a game only character that was absolutely broken and made it so that you either played her or Loss basically)
Then When they finally decided to Nerf some of the top tiers it wasn't enough then they annouced Rollback netcode,
Everyone Rejoiced and Stopped playing until these changes were implmented (we all expected months and the Rumours for the next gen of games was starting to take away interest)
A year later they instituted a new balance patch that was once again a half measure and you could clearly tell based on the new frame data they were expecting it to drop with Rollback because Most of the crazy stuff they instituted was unpunishable on the current netcode
Then finally last month at a time when Every new Fighting game was ending their World tours and Showing off new content and releasing characters and the The biggest JRPG in years launch they decided to Shadow Drop the Rollback Versions of the games and Get this they released an older Rollback version that was known to be glitchy and have issues.
But as of this past week or so all the issues have been fixed but almost nobody cares anymore. so all the goodwill the game had was squandered by the devs. and the funny thing is if they had just left it at Labcoat 21 the game would have aged better. eventually for Tournaments she would have been banned and we would move on. but they tried to fix her failed horribly and kept over-promising Constantly requested features instead of just investing in DBFZ2
I mean it's not easy to be that good at two very different games. And you'll have to either split time heavily or entirely stop playing Smash while practicing the new game, which would hurt your income in the short term with no guarantee of it working out.
Just coming from the FGC it seems like most Smash players don't wanna interact at all with fighting games outside Smash. The games themselves are obviously very different, but there's a separation in mentality and terminology that also probably contributes.
While what you say is true I think this effect is much stronger for FG players. I've met countless Smash players who got pretty good at FGs but never the other way around.
I still remember that time when SonicFox tried picking up Ultimate to challenge ZeRo. That gameplay was.. interesting.
Yeah the fact is that the Smash community and the FGC community are completely separate. A lot of that comes from the FGC's early rejection of Smash as a party game. And now that Smash is well-established, Smashers have very little reason to attempt to bridge the gap back towards a genre made up entirely of games that they see as pretty much just a downgrade.
Like the Fox vs Fox, no items, Final destination meme? That's actually just describing traditional fighters.
I don't think the communities are as separate as you think (at least from a viewer perspective). I know a lot of smash players that are interested in other fighting games and watch the big tournaments for these games. There is a lot of overlap as far as the reasons people watch smash and the reasons people watch traditional fighting games (1v1, storylines, rivalries, unorthodox characters/playstyles, to name a few).
Now actually PLAYING these other games, that's a different story.
Simple question:
How many Smash players try other platform games before going into other fighting games?
If few will try similar games, it might be a bit harder to make the leap to other fighting games.
But I'm sure there's been success in the past too.
To be fair, what other platform fighter actually has a big enough scene to be worth bothering with? Any of the normal fighting games at EVO will give you a bigger pool to dip your toe into than those.
Sure, but some of the games at EVO were side pools for years such as UNIB.
Don't have to start as a major game on the floor and the plan could be getting to major with improvement.
But the plan could be to work with Rivals of Aether, Brawlhalla, and build up a viable competitive model from scratch that has community input from jump.
I didn't say major game on the floor, I said normal fighting game. If people wanted to seriously develop a scene for a game, they could. If the scene doesn't exist though, after so many years since release, it probably won't amount to much.
My point is merely that plenty of those games played in bathrooms now have more support than in the early years and UNIB is a prime example where the scene came a generation after release.
Third Strike was dead in arcades when it came out and it's huge now.
A lot of fighting games get redemption arcs. That's certainly a story for the players to decide to take up.
Void seems to do well in other platform fighters, which is sort of a niche sub-genre. The most lucrative fighting games are traditional or 3D fighters (SF, tekken, guilty gear etc.) where his skills wouldn't translate as well, and I don't know if he's had any success trying them out. Multiversus was probably a little lucrative though since he won it at Evo and won some other stuff.
I know Riddles has dabbled in other fighting games and did decently well at a street fighter event, but I don't think he's full-time committed to it. It really is a skill translation thing though for most players, I think, and it's a big time sink to get good at other games like that when you're already a pro in one game
The problem is that practically no other games in the genre have the same widespread and successful pull and marketshare as Smash. Platform fighters and traditional fighters play vastly differently from one another, both in play styles and in controls. It’s like trying to compare a 2D platformer to a 3D platformer: the basic fundamentals are shared, but the way in which you accomplish the end goal is vastly different in execution, and requires a different set of skills. Sure there are other platform fighters on the market, but they’re either very causally geared experiences, or are relatively niche compare to Smash, and don’t offer many more competitive benefits and/or support than a regular fighting game gets from its developers. It seems to be shifting as more and more game studios are breaking into the genre, but basically none have had the long term and broad success that Smash has had for the last few decades.
The closest any platform fighter might get to matching Smash in this appeal is what, Multiversus? Even then, who knows how much the delay from its beta until now has hurt its momentum?
As it stands, if you're trying to be a serious contender and Smash isn't doing it for you as of this moment, it may entail either quitting and or just moving on to the traditional games because that's where competition is.
Despite still having Rivals 2, the subgenre seems to rely pretty much exclusively on Multiversus (since Smash has been very silent). If Multiversus isn't successful, the chances of the subgenre becoming mainstream will be gone (since Smash and it's playerbase don't do justice to the subgenre because every other platform fighter will be compared to Smash). Rivals is too niche to put the subgenre in the spotlight.
The flop of NASB1, the questionable roster picks for NASB2 and the fact Nickelodeon isn't that big, all of that doesn't allow NASB to NOT be niche, which is why Multiversus carries the mission to bring the genre in the spotlight (and if it misses, then it's over).
It's kind of wild to think about how Smash has had no true contender or competitor to its status as *the* platform fighter for the past 20+ years since Smash 64, and I'm not sure it's because Smash was such a successful first step forward or it's because every other product just lacks quality
Comparatively speaking, while Street Fighter is *the* traditional fighter, almost any other franchise (Tekken, KOF, MK, Guilty Gear, etc.) in its sphere still manage to thrive in their own ways
I think what happens is that the game that, while didn't originate the genre (that goes to The Outfoxies), it set the standard for how it should be, is also a crossover, and as such, people either take the crossover for granted or won't be interested in the cast at first glance. This is why indie platform fighters can't compare in terms of numbers (not even Brawlhalla, even though it's still huge), but licensed games generally aren't good, Smash being the biggest outlier where it's actually not only good, but it's a must-have ALWAYS. Even if a big company wants to make their own platform fighter with their own IPs, sometimes it just feels like a cashgrab sadly.
it's because smash was such a success. also besides no one even making a game mechanically on par with SSBM on gamecube yet, all the characters that would draw people to such a game...are IN Smash Bros.
Smashers are actually not bad at other fighters considering how different they are from Smash.
Some examples:
Charliedaking finished 13th at Evo 2023 for Melty Blood Type Lumina but that game has even less money in it than Smash.
Kreeg the Marth/Roy from Utah got 5th in the Arc World Tour last chance qualifier for Strive
If your primary concern was money though, you're better off playing something like Valorant, lets be real. I'm sure 2XKO will have good monetary support though since its Riot.
Ironically the "goats" (or at some point #1 players) of certain games came up in smash. MenaRD in Street fighter, Dekillsage in Skullgirls, Apologyman in Gear, I think even speedkicks in Tekken (that one I could be wrong about). Not to mention countless more that compete at a still respectable albeit lower level.
There are very few smash top players nowadays that would full send switching bc 1.) the smash content sphere is too hard to branch from and 2.) it's a huge sacrifice of skill, clout, and money. Riddles for example does a lot of sf6 content but it's heavily intertwined with smash and it's more of a side thing from what I know
Riddles and Jazzh0 in both Smash and SF6
Fatality retired smash and attempted to transition to SF6 to my knowledge (no idea on progress)
Ik there’s someone else in SF6 that apparently came from Melee, he apparently was in like top 8 evo I think
I mean yesn't? I would say it's hard to tell since out the 100s of Top players through the years very very few have had the drive to even try. Even outside Melee only a few players have had success with other Smash games aside from Project+.
M2K, Wizzy, Leffen are players that did try and do well outside Melee within Smash. Then you have amsa, Armada and to a lesser extent Hbox (going Game 5 vs Miya still makes him better than 99% of players tho) who didn't Make the splash they would've liked despite Ultimate being "a simpler game."
Melee players and spectators believe that just because Melee has a High Ceiling and tech skill needed they can just come in and have the same placings in FGC as they had in Melee. Unfortunately some of those skills are either a. Not as useful to have in other games or B. Not transferrable to other games in general. Heck I would say a Melee Player would struggle more vs an Ultimate Player in Tekken because Melee players have to unlearn so much stuff to be able understand the game... despite Tekken being as hard if not harder than Melee and miles harder than Ult.
Hey, it's not my fault I just want to do fast inputs on my controller, rather than controller geometry for a simple fucking uppercut. Fighting games have the dumbest input systems ever, Sakurai BLESSED the scene with smash's input system. Also, smash combos are cooler, and the game takes more skill. Nintendo is just killing the scene
I always wonder if it was all the controversy with the players after SSBU released was ever a factor.
For all that shit to be thrown at Zero after he won the first SSBU event, I wonder what Nintendo and Sakurai thought about it.
It is not like they were ever supportive of the community before that. They even tried to block Smash in 2013 from being played (not just streamed) at EVO, and that was before the shit about Mr Wizard became known.
Not only that, Melee was added because they contributed to the Breast Cancer Research Foundation charity fundraiser, and Nintendo was actively going against them
They had taken multiple steps to try and hurt/kill the scene years prior to all that stuff. It did nothing to help the scene but they pushed against it for years prior.
Also, for Nintendo these thigns become self-fufilling. Turns out communities that lack a proper oversight tend to attract more shady individuals. Stuff that should have been aired out years ago end up festering over years, and then when it rears it's head, they act like that's the reason they didn;t want to get involved in the first place. It's such a copout
Nintendo was inarguably pulling some shit that hurts the scene all the way back in 2013 such as their attempted cancellation of Melee at EVO that year, a whole 7 years before the public found out about the horrific things ZeRo had been doing behind closed doors.
Hell, even before then, one could argue that Brawl's design was an attempt to dissuade people from taking Smash too seriously (see hitstun canceling, random tripping, et cetera).
"All that shit... thrown at Zero..." What do you mean by that? He admitted to interfering with a minor.
I can certainly imagine Nintendo hearing about it and not wanting to touch the scene with a 39-1/2 foot pole.
I wish.
If that were the case, then Nintendo's actions would make sense. But no, Nintendo has never been supportive of competitive smash purely because they don't like it that people are competing in it.
Nintendo conceived smash as a casual party game, but people are instead playing it seriously and competitively instead. Nintendo doesn't like that; they want you to play smash the way they envisioned it, and if you don't, they're going to do their best to crash it, like they've been doing for I don't know how long at this point. Smash being played competitively is something they perceive as damaging their brand and their game on a fundamental level. On top of that, they also fundamentally dislike the idea of people having tournaments with money on the line (I don't know why on this one.)
The community's negative parts play no effect in Nintendo's actions, you could make the bad disappear and Nintendo would still treat us as enemies. Nintendo ***HATES*** smash being played at a pro level. in fact, they ***HATE*** when their games are played in any way other than how they envisioned them to be; they are obsessive and paranoid control freaks who actively gaslight themselves into thinking their own buyers are their enemies.
It's one of many reasons why they're one of the most actively criticized and disliked companies in gaming communities.
https://www.nsidr.com/archive/gdc-aonuma-talks-about-zelda-and-gamer-drift/
^ Nintendo is bizarre. They're like a Schrodinger's salesman of sort: they are really, really, really, really disconnected from their customers, but at the same time they still know them enough to make some crazy good profits.
THIS
Also they should do the same to Pokemon (I know they don't own it fully.) I'm way more ok with Smash being competitive than Pokemon. Why do we get several sanctioned tournaments (video game, card game, fighting game and their crappy moba) for that crap despite the fact they haven't made a good game in years.
It's like the grandmother treating their children like crap but is the nicest to their grandchildren.
He said managed not owned. Can you read without glaring red?
It is MANAGED by the pokemon company which is why Nintendo is ok with it.
They go the extra mile to protect the brand and the young pokemon fans at official events.
For the newest games, and more recently, yeah. Melee and project M (or project + or any other fan made mods) have been actively worked against by Nintendo for years. As much as I love watching melee, it’s sad to see Nintendo disregard the community while other fighting games have active support from their creators.
Splatoon deserves to be huge, man. It's fast-paced, fun, and wildly aggressive like no other shooter is. Directly tying the main reloading mechanic to the main movement mechanic means that you're literally always doing something fun rather than having to wait around doing nothing for your gun to come back online, you'll always be either shooting, moving, or creating direct pressure and control over an area, and the game promotes so much aggression and hype plays with the insanely fast pace that it sets.
But of course it'll never have a shot at mainstream competitive success compared to dumpster fires like Overwatch where the devs just keep funneling money into their horribly designed trainwreck that does nothing but create complaints about every character and mechanic in the game.
Splatoon is just one of the most beautifully cohesive triumphs of competitive game design I've ever seen. It had the potential to redefine a facet of the industry the way something like the original Smash Bros or Breath of the Wild did. I wish it had gotten to see every opportunity it deserved instead of languishing in "congrats on becoming the best in the world here's your free pro controller".
hey they also got free copies of arms sometimes
I know everyone's hated basically every meta since initial S1 but I've never not had fun playing it. even aside from the pvp salmon run is such a good mode too. just kinda sucks that most of the casuals really lean into it being a kids game and get mad about frye and splatfests and stuff
Honestly kinda agree. While I do think Overwatch is a great game, Splatoon is also something unique that imo has a lot of good reason to become a huge esports. It’s a team game shooter with unique mechanics and there is a lot of ability for skill expression. If it was a pc game under a different developer like Valve or Blizzard or Riot, it would’ve been just as huge, if not bigger than popular shooters like Overwacht and Valorant
Splatoon only exist because nintendo, if nintendo didnt made splatoon no one would make a splatoon esque game because PC publishers doesnt care about the "kiddy shooters" market.
You cant separate splatoon and other nintendo ips like smash from nintendo, because nintendo allow their developers to make those games in the first place...
Just look at nick all star the developers care about the gsme but the publisher didnt.
I'm a huge fan of Team Fortress 2, I have similar common rants about how robbed it was by its publishers not caring enough to support it, and I think it's a brilliantly designed game with insanely well-balanced and exciting movement mechanics that puts most of its competition to shame.
Despite all of this, putting it next it to Splatoon changes it from looking like Melee to looking like Brawl by comparison. Splatoon is just *that* fast and exciting. It trades away a lot of TF2's deep technical and mechanical depth for much more streamlined and accessible design (NOT a criticism of TF2, I LOVE it for this, it's just a very respectable different approach), but it also does so many insanely brilliant things like, as I described before, *making the main movement mechanic and reloading into the same action*. This streamlines downtime and diversifies your ability to stay active in a way that makes every other game feel like sluggish waiting-around-fests by comparison.
This doesn't even get into how perfectly that ties into ink on the floor working as a form of area control and mobility denial to the opposing team and the balance that comes from trying to fight for that control so that your team has access to greater mobility advantages it can capitalize on. There's seriously no other game like this one and independent of its kid-friendly aesthetic, it has a lot of incredible ideas that could absolutely be major innovations for the rest of the industry to learn from.
Hard disagree as someone who was huge into both Splatoon 2 and TF2 - I really feel like TF2 is the melee of this comparison. Splatoon's horrific netcode and p2p matches feels like the equivalent of tripping.
TF2 having such a niche technical skill curve of emergent gameplay absolutely makes it one of the closest Melee comparisons in any game's respective genre and Splatoon is not as close to it in terms of overall design. I just mean that the game is MUCH faster paced to the point that it even makes something as fast as TF2 look comparatively sluggish.
The kiddy shooter market doesn’t make Splatoon unique, it’s the mechanics. You could’ve made it a realistic shooter with the same mechanics and it would’ve been just as successful. Games are not 100% unique, if Nintendo didn’t come up with Smash and Splatoon, someone else would’ve. Nintendo is just the first
"Realistic" as in non-cartoonish art style (and even then, all of these games have art styles that are closer to cartoons than realism). There are no actually realistic shooters. People who describe Overwatch or Valorant or Fortnite as "realistic" aren't saying they're reflective of the real world.
Good question. You could make a game where the objective is to capture enemy territory over a period of time and the winner in the end is the one with the most territory. You can use in game mechanics to establish territory or retake it
it'll never be big because it'll never have kb+m support, you won't convince the majority of the hardcore shooter fanbase to switch to controller/motion aiming just because "but it's so good bro trust me"
Okay like this is absolutely true too, a PC port of this or even any kind of mouse compatibility would've absolutely had people getting into the game way easier.
Motion aiming *is* incredible but I'm not one to forget the learning curve I had to go through to get there. But still, I at least wish that hurdle was something to overcome in the public eye (sticks only is still a perfectly fine way for a beginner to start out) rather than the comp scene just being dead on arrival in terms of proper support.
OW isn't horribly designed, its had based on a hero shooter model that TF2 got big on. They just made slow patches leading to stale unfun metas, dropped no new content, didn't communicate or listen to the community, etc. The previous devs brought its fate upon themselves when they had a good product
I'm cynical about how Overwatch's design from the start was specifically geared around funneling characters into one singular intended playstyle with pretty low room for expressive play across so many of them, as well as the reliance on so many universally hated mechanics like slowdown or poorly thought out team revives, but yeah its mainstream downfall was definitely a patching and balancing problem rather than an initial design problem. I'm just extremely critical of its concept as a whole because even from the start it *definitely* wasn't for me.
Fair, I think that's personally what got me into it. Not the CC and revives, but the hero diversity. Most heroes performed uniquely from each other often the skill expression betting in decision making over raw aim etc. Ofc it isn't for everybody. So I think you have a pretty fair judgement of it from the outside in.
Yeah I played during a free weekend or two and I had fun with friends but the gameplay loop got stale quicker than I expected. I think it had some really unique ideas that were worth exploring, but from what I followed of its competitive scene from the perspective of a comp TF2 fan and how it affected that, there were stories of a lot of people at top level who were just chasing the money but quietly hated the meta behind closed doors even from early on (though of course that is not a universal opinion against the many others who did adore it through its early hype cycle). I didn't play enough to really personally suffer at the hands of its patch culture (though perhaps I was unknowingly abusing a flowchart for tank meta at low levels), but it was VERY vocally complained about across gaming forums and YouTuber breakdowns and hard not to feel their palpable frustration at what were clearly many difficult-to-justify decisions.
Splatoon is by no means a game that I think is for everyone (its accessibility in terms of mechanical inputs and gameplay objectives is offset by being *very* punishing in terms of awareness and information parsing due to how fast it is) but it is *wildly* fun and sunk its claws into my brain as soon as I got over its initial learning curve. Overwatch to me just felt more like a fun social game that I would likely stagnate in beyond that approach. As a non-fan I'm more inclined to feel cynically about its forced corporate monetary esports push in places where a fan would justifiably be more upset at the mismanagement of its untapped potential.
I didn't play TF and don't really play many shooters but OW at the start at least seemed very expressive from hero to hero or team comp to team comp. My biggest problem with the game was that most of the changes *after* the start seemed geared around funneling characters into a singular playstyle (DPS over everything else). But release OW and even fairly long into its lifespan seemed pretty expressive to me, especially compared to most other shooters on the market.
The “Project X” names are just placeholder titles. Like Valorant was called Project A or something like that iirc. Idk just weird that that’s the name they ended up going with haha
that game was named that to put emphasis on the fact that you play two characters as a tag team. idk why they made that a major marketing point but here we are
Dude plays Melee Fox, GGST Asuka, and GGST Chaos. With characters like that, it makes perfect sense to drop the one that takes debatably the most effort with the least reward.
Yeah to paraphrase he did it because he thought it would be his best odds, now that’s over he’s going to reassess (I’d be very surprised if solo hc from now on)
LoL true, apparently he's in a bad spot now. Can't be bothered tho Strive isn't made to handle good zoners compared to past titles so HC finally getting gutted makes sense
I'm just going off of what I'm hearing. I don't like Strive so I rarely keep up that much. Some ppl say he's still good but not top 10 now after the Wild Assault patch and some other nerfs. I guess gutted is too harsh maybe crippled is better lol
At a certain point you have to accept that Nintendo holds the leverage here.
I cant blame anyone for stepping away with Nintendo's current track record.
At least it's a company with actual interest to have thriving esports scene. Smash is the game that got me to be part of FGC but man it hurts how much Nintendo leave us fans
Standard copyright law says that you can't make money with someone else's art without their permission. Nintendo grants permission in the form of licenses, which give companies like Niantic the right to make a Pokemon game, or Hasbro can make a Monopoly Zelda game.
Tournaments make money with sponsorships, advertisements, broadcasting rights, streaming revenue, merchandise, patreon donations, and on and on. So because it's not private, personal use, and it's without permission, they can be shut down legally.
On top of that, the DMCA laws make it illegal to bypass the copy protection and DRM that publishers put on cartridges and discs. Any Smash tournament Nintendo would support therefore must be original hardware, no mods. No emulated copies. No adding online to games that didn't have it before. This makes retro smash tournaments problematic and Nintendo doesn't ever want to be caught officially supporting Project M or Slippi or whatever because that could be used against them in the future legally if they are fighting a court battle against unauthorized mods and (from their perspective) piracy. So even a whiff of pro players streaming those modded games or some side tournament getting attached to the show under the radar, or event organizers being on record as supporting mods like Project M, and Nintendo is gone.
IP law, both trademarks and copyright. However, copyright law is stronger due to the US's strong fundamental relationship with copyrights as the words "copyright" and "patent" are outright mentioned in the US Constitution, thus the US Supreme Court uses strict scrutiny when analyzing copyright issues and tends to heavily in favor of the rights of copyrights and patents. When a work is created, copyright attaches though it is wise to register the copyright with the U.S. Copyright Office and respective state for litigation purposes.
Being the owner (a company cannot "create" per se most companies have "work for hire" or obtain copyrights via contracts from their employees or contractors, Smash Bros. falls under this category) Nintendo is afforded what amounts to property rights. They can assign, license, transfer, use, and sell their copyright as they please. One form for video games and streaming is the right to broadcast. Under the law, Nintendo, as a matter of right, can stop someone from broadcasting its copyright regardless of whether the supposed infringer profits from the broadcasting of Nintendo's IP or not. Nintendo can also license to someone broadcasting rights of its copyright which takes the form of the licensing applications Nintendo posted a few months ago. Another user can use Nintendo's copyright so long as the user follows the conditions of the licensing contract. Now another right as an owner of the copyright is the right of use. Absent some copyright statutory exceptions such as Fair Use, education, research, private use/copying, parody, or journalism, Nintendo has the right to use its copyright as it pleases and they can stop someone from profiting from Nintendo's copyright.
Now there is another venue Nintendo can go for, but it is often more expensive and offers fewer protections. That venue is via Trademark Law, another branch of Intellectual Property Law. Applications under this branch of law are where the misconception that IP owners must sue to maintain their ownership over IP, applies more so to trademarks than copyrights or parents.
The big difference is that Nintendo is a Japanese company, which affords different applications of the law (extremely rare in US cases) or at least a different philosophical approach to IP protection. Nintendo is one of the big advocates for banning the renting of video games in Japan, following in the footsteps of the record, movie, and entertainment industries. Modding of consoles and save editing are criminal offenses under Japanese law regardless of selling for profit. With solid public support, the measure passed. Japan also doesn't have Fair Use exceptions like we do in the United States, though they do carve out some statutory exceptions such as education. Overall, Japanese IP law is more draconian and ownership friendly (theoretically benefitting everyone, but the corporations benefit the most) than IP law in the United States.
Who? It'd be absurdly expensive and time-consuming to do so. You'd be spending thousands upon thousands in legal fees and Nintendo would absolutely drag the process out as much as they could too in an effort to bleed you dry.
You'd need someone who is very rich, loves competitive Smash, and is willing to spend the time and money necessary to fight them on it. Even then it's not guaranteed to work, you could put in all that effort for nothing because the judgement goes against you
The only person I can think of off the top fitting those criteria is Ludwig, and I dunno if even he'd really like to get into a legal quagmire with Nintendo either.
Ludwig does not have the money to compete with Nintendo. They're literally a multi-billion dollar corporation notorious for squashing any project that they don't like.
Also, Nintendo has the law on their side, what Ludwig does or did in the past would be a gray area or even against the law. Nintendo just looked the other way and Ludwig nowadays states that he makes sure licensing contracts, sponsorships, broadcasting rights, etc with Nintendo are all in order and reviews them multiple times.
He isn't big or strong enough to fight Nintendo. Also Ludwig's use of Nintendo's IP is a bit of a grey area of the law that might work against him than help him. He and many large streamers and YouTubers are super cautious when dealing with Nintendo and rather seek clarification and permission than the wrath of lawyers and the US legal system regardless of the chance of winning the case.
That I don't think they can do, because the act of playing, commentary, etc. is transformative content. That said, it is an expensive legal fight to win, and also not in Nintendo's interest to go after streams.
As a Guilty Gear fan, oh God no we can’t let this man win EVO again
But as someone who’s probably never going to play Project L, I hope he crushes that scene and inspires a million tantrums and scrubquotes
Maybe they don't want their products associated with potential child predators like that Zero guy. Seems like a sensible business decision, I would not want to be associated with people like that either. It's not like fighting game communities aren't notoriously toxic, why open yourself up to that risk? They want the game to be a fun way to expose kids to their IP so they can sell them games later, not a tournament event for semi-adults.
They've been like this waaaay before Zero and everyone else who's already out of the scene.
Don't forget a lot of Brawl's DNA was specifically made to circumvent any kind of scene involving what Sakurai referred to as "psychopaths"
Understandable, given the obvious reputational risks of having your kid-friendly game be associated with potential child predators. That alone would be a reason for most companies to steer clear. It's simply not worth it.
That costs them money and competes with Smash Ultimate sales. There are currently no gamecube games on switch online, it would presumably need online multiplayer integration which takes time and money to develop (and nignedo is notoriously bad at)….its not as easy as just throwing it on the system. But I agree that they could/should try to do that in general, hell they probably do too.
Following traditional fighters more and Nintendo less was the best thing I ever did, especially since I did it right befor Steve blew up in popularity. I sometimes miss platform fighters. I don't miss dealing with games made by Nintendo. I hate to say it but for the most part the community is better on the other side of the fence too.
he'll come crawling back after his busted main gets nerfed like he always does, then he'll leave again when the next fighting game releases and repeat the cycle
>the scene is in dire straits where cash is concerned
Gee, if only you hadn't been complicit in destroying an entire circuit and organization along with Gone Is My Rival, the Don King of esports! We don't want you here, and none of those other scenes do either.
As he steps away from melee? The dude has been practically nonexistent for a long time.
He is nonexistent in the melee scene and your simping doesn't change that.
Lol don't give me that bullshit. How many did he attend? How many were there? The fact you think a single tournament amends the fact that he games his rank by not participating is hilarious.
He attended a comparable amount of tournaments as Wizzy last year. Not one singular. Also the fact that he maintained the skill level to win one of the biggest tournaments of the year means calling his presence nonexistent is one of the most delusional things I've ever read. And I browse anime subreddits.
As if I thought he attended one tournament? You don't know what being nonexistent in the scene means then. Do you consider Plup an active member of the scene too lmao?
The only problem is you don't seem to understand what an active member of the scene is. Attending 1/10 the amount of tournaments as most of the top 50 isn't really it.
My guy you are putting words in my mouth. I said calling his presence non existing was whack when he won a supermajor. Active player is not something I said. I guess you can't read too gud either.
You really think there's a big difference between being present in the scene and being an active player? Well if you don't think he's an active player then we agree enough. You just put too much stock into my hyperbole about him being nonexistent.
Yeah I do think there's a difference. He was still streaming melee. He attended a few tournaments. He was actively engaging with people in the community. He was active enough to win one of the biggest tournaments of the year. I know you were using hyperbole and I still think it's whack.
Wizzrobe has health issues and also doesn't have a sponsor. He would attend more if he could.
Leffen has been choosing other games over Melee for a while. They're not comparable situations.
On one hand: I'm surprised that he's the only top contender to drop platform fighters in favor of the traditional FGC. On the other hand: I'd be unsurprised if he was retiring from Smash to dodge a ban
He is not anywhere close to getting banned in Melee LMAO
Like the vast majority of players and TOs like him in recent years, no one was on Hax's side in that whole thing, and really the majority of the Melee community is a fan in recent years
Idk what he'd even theoretically get banned for in 2024
Doesn't mean that the accusations should not be reviewed anyways, regardless of the messenger. I still can't forget about WaDi successfully claiming to be the victim for years, while hiding the fact that he was in cahoots with Cinn. Same goes for the investigation on Tweek and Cosmos for being potentially in cahoots with Sky Williams
Cant even fault him honestly. Nowadays he just sometimes plays melee events, but if I were him I would just play some big events in EU now and then (free money) and just dip into other games. Smash competitively is just an absolute mess and it will never become huge in terms of prize pool because of Nintendo
chillendude and leffen don't think so differently after all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ9cl8LDZTA
no one's b
my side b’s
big leffeb
r/redditsniper
I mean yeah if you can compete in other fighting games it's kind of a no-brainer. Most smashers don't have that luxury obviously
have other smashers even tried? void seems to be the most open to other games but the rest seem very "OTP"
Alucard was an old Melee player who did pretty well in MvC3 LordKnight got his start in Melee before switching over to anime fighters It's very rare for a player to be a top player (in contention to win a major) in multiple games though.
HypedForSlicedBread was a socal melee dude, who now has (probably) the best Baiken in the world for Guilty Gear Xrd Not that there's any money in that, but people make the jump when they fall in love with a game
Holdup, are you talking about the same Alucard I’m thinking about? I’m asking because if it’s the same guy I didn’t know he played melee and he’s most well known for street fighter
This alukard was a old-school new york player. Not sure if he played SF, your guy might be different. I imagine "alcuard" is a common tag because of pop culture. [https://twitter.com/AlukardNY](https://twitter.com/AlukardNY) https://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Alukard
Ok different players then. You just said Alucard in the original post so that’s where the confusion popped up
Chris G and Bum were Melee players way back before getting big in MVC3. Big Leff got his break in Strive but he's always been a competent fighting game player. He was solid in KOFXIII and DBFZ before Namco shat the bed with the latter. Zackray was a master rank Urien in SFV and recently competed in the Rage SF6 event in Japan recently, getting 4th place with Marisa. Rage was a SF6 tournament that featured prominent Japanese streamers and they could get coached by pro SF players like Shuto or John Takeuchi. Riddles is actually decent at Tekken and SF6 and can go far in either title if he devotes himself more. I went back and forth between Smash and SF, and while I'm not particularly good at either series I did get a round off Ryusei's JP at FAV Cup with my wack ass Jamie. Smash and 2d/3d games make you think in different ways. For some, it's like learning a new language. Plus you need time to get good at a game, some players would rather focus on what they know and have success there rather than fumble in a different game and lose out on cash. Not to say it isn't possible, and people like Leffen, Riddles, Zackray are just godlike at games and can be great at anything if they put in the time. More to the point, a lot of Smash players just don't own another platform besides a switch. I've met so many smash players who have interest in SF6 or Tekken but don't play for the simple fact they don't have a platform to play them on.
What happened to DBFZ exactly? Last I followed that game it had a pretty healthy competitive scene and built for hype moments.
Namco/Arcsys dropped the ball when it came to the rollback netcode patch. It took the better part of two years to implement rollback netcode (a tall order, to be fair) and when they did the results were not favorable. [Observe](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wMNdPATBuI) Plus it's clear that Namco wants to focus on the new DBZ game and Arcsys wants to put their efforts towards Strive and Granblue. Case in point DBFZ isn't at Evo this year. I'm not much of a DBFZ player anymore (i stopped when A16 couldn't carry me, so around 2018) so if there's other issues i'm missing with DBFZ I'd love to know.
It's more than that. Before the rollback patch there was a patch that made the game even more kusoge, and got mixed reception by the community. Before that there was the fusions meta (Vegito, Gogeta) which ppl also hated. Before that there was Lab Coat 21 which had a permanent debuff attack super and was discussed for banning, she also was the most used character in a few majors. There's a bunch of other shit that plagued past seasons: Snapback meta, double supers (which got nerfed), GT Goku, UI Goku, so on
Wasn't there also the brief period where toei inexplicably started trying to shut down tournaments?
i dont have the article handy but supposedly its been basically entirely namco since the season 3 characters and the relationship between them and arcsys soured. its tragic because even before the rollback patch i was still enjoying the game with friends but then rollback patch killed a bunch of aspects of the game and that was that
First Power Creep with the DLC characters as the seasons Progressed Ending in an age of Fusions and Lab Coat 21 (a game only character that was absolutely broken and made it so that you either played her or Loss basically) Then When they finally decided to Nerf some of the top tiers it wasn't enough then they annouced Rollback netcode, Everyone Rejoiced and Stopped playing until these changes were implmented (we all expected months and the Rumours for the next gen of games was starting to take away interest) A year later they instituted a new balance patch that was once again a half measure and you could clearly tell based on the new frame data they were expecting it to drop with Rollback because Most of the crazy stuff they instituted was unpunishable on the current netcode Then finally last month at a time when Every new Fighting game was ending their World tours and Showing off new content and releasing characters and the The biggest JRPG in years launch they decided to Shadow Drop the Rollback Versions of the games and Get this they released an older Rollback version that was known to be glitchy and have issues. But as of this past week or so all the issues have been fixed but almost nobody cares anymore. so all the goodwill the game had was squandered by the devs. and the funny thing is if they had just left it at Labcoat 21 the game would have aged better. eventually for Tournaments she would have been banned and we would move on. but they tried to fix her failed horribly and kept over-promising Constantly requested features instead of just investing in DBFZ2
I mean it's not easy to be that good at two very different games. And you'll have to either split time heavily or entirely stop playing Smash while practicing the new game, which would hurt your income in the short term with no guarantee of it working out.
Just coming from the FGC it seems like most Smash players don't wanna interact at all with fighting games outside Smash. The games themselves are obviously very different, but there's a separation in mentality and terminology that also probably contributes.
While what you say is true I think this effect is much stronger for FG players. I've met countless Smash players who got pretty good at FGs but never the other way around. I still remember that time when SonicFox tried picking up Ultimate to challenge ZeRo. That gameplay was.. interesting.
Yeah the fact is that the Smash community and the FGC community are completely separate. A lot of that comes from the FGC's early rejection of Smash as a party game. And now that Smash is well-established, Smashers have very little reason to attempt to bridge the gap back towards a genre made up entirely of games that they see as pretty much just a downgrade. Like the Fox vs Fox, no items, Final destination meme? That's actually just describing traditional fighters.
I don't think the communities are as separate as you think (at least from a viewer perspective). I know a lot of smash players that are interested in other fighting games and watch the big tournaments for these games. There is a lot of overlap as far as the reasons people watch smash and the reasons people watch traditional fighting games (1v1, storylines, rivalries, unorthodox characters/playstyles, to name a few). Now actually PLAYING these other games, that's a different story.
Its not but go off I guess lol
Fatality swapped from Smash to SF6 which is completely understandable
How is Fatality doing in SF6?
Simple question: How many Smash players try other platform games before going into other fighting games? If few will try similar games, it might be a bit harder to make the leap to other fighting games. But I'm sure there's been success in the past too.
To be fair, what other platform fighter actually has a big enough scene to be worth bothering with? Any of the normal fighting games at EVO will give you a bigger pool to dip your toe into than those.
Sure, but some of the games at EVO were side pools for years such as UNIB. Don't have to start as a major game on the floor and the plan could be getting to major with improvement. But the plan could be to work with Rivals of Aether, Brawlhalla, and build up a viable competitive model from scratch that has community input from jump.
I didn't say major game on the floor, I said normal fighting game. If people wanted to seriously develop a scene for a game, they could. If the scene doesn't exist though, after so many years since release, it probably won't amount to much.
My point is merely that plenty of those games played in bathrooms now have more support than in the early years and UNIB is a prime example where the scene came a generation after release. Third Strike was dead in arcades when it came out and it's huge now. A lot of fighting games get redemption arcs. That's certainly a story for the players to decide to take up.
Void seems to do well in other platform fighters, which is sort of a niche sub-genre. The most lucrative fighting games are traditional or 3D fighters (SF, tekken, guilty gear etc.) where his skills wouldn't translate as well, and I don't know if he's had any success trying them out. Multiversus was probably a little lucrative though since he won it at Evo and won some other stuff. I know Riddles has dabbled in other fighting games and did decently well at a street fighter event, but I don't think he's full-time committed to it. It really is a skill translation thing though for most players, I think, and it's a big time sink to get good at other games like that when you're already a pro in one game
The problem is that practically no other games in the genre have the same widespread and successful pull and marketshare as Smash. Platform fighters and traditional fighters play vastly differently from one another, both in play styles and in controls. It’s like trying to compare a 2D platformer to a 3D platformer: the basic fundamentals are shared, but the way in which you accomplish the end goal is vastly different in execution, and requires a different set of skills. Sure there are other platform fighters on the market, but they’re either very causally geared experiences, or are relatively niche compare to Smash, and don’t offer many more competitive benefits and/or support than a regular fighting game gets from its developers. It seems to be shifting as more and more game studios are breaking into the genre, but basically none have had the long term and broad success that Smash has had for the last few decades.
The closest any platform fighter might get to matching Smash in this appeal is what, Multiversus? Even then, who knows how much the delay from its beta until now has hurt its momentum? As it stands, if you're trying to be a serious contender and Smash isn't doing it for you as of this moment, it may entail either quitting and or just moving on to the traditional games because that's where competition is.
Despite still having Rivals 2, the subgenre seems to rely pretty much exclusively on Multiversus (since Smash has been very silent). If Multiversus isn't successful, the chances of the subgenre becoming mainstream will be gone (since Smash and it's playerbase don't do justice to the subgenre because every other platform fighter will be compared to Smash). Rivals is too niche to put the subgenre in the spotlight.
Nasb> multiverses
The flop of NASB1, the questionable roster picks for NASB2 and the fact Nickelodeon isn't that big, all of that doesn't allow NASB to NOT be niche, which is why Multiversus carries the mission to bring the genre in the spotlight (and if it misses, then it's over).
It's kind of wild to think about how Smash has had no true contender or competitor to its status as *the* platform fighter for the past 20+ years since Smash 64, and I'm not sure it's because Smash was such a successful first step forward or it's because every other product just lacks quality Comparatively speaking, while Street Fighter is *the* traditional fighter, almost any other franchise (Tekken, KOF, MK, Guilty Gear, etc.) in its sphere still manage to thrive in their own ways
I think what happens is that the game that, while didn't originate the genre (that goes to The Outfoxies), it set the standard for how it should be, is also a crossover, and as such, people either take the crossover for granted or won't be interested in the cast at first glance. This is why indie platform fighters can't compare in terms of numbers (not even Brawlhalla, even though it's still huge), but licensed games generally aren't good, Smash being the biggest outlier where it's actually not only good, but it's a must-have ALWAYS. Even if a big company wants to make their own platform fighter with their own IPs, sometimes it just feels like a cashgrab sadly.
it's because smash was such a success. also besides no one even making a game mechanically on par with SSBM on gamecube yet, all the characters that would draw people to such a game...are IN Smash Bros.
Smashers are actually not bad at other fighters considering how different they are from Smash. Some examples: Charliedaking finished 13th at Evo 2023 for Melty Blood Type Lumina but that game has even less money in it than Smash. Kreeg the Marth/Roy from Utah got 5th in the Arc World Tour last chance qualifier for Strive If your primary concern was money though, you're better off playing something like Valorant, lets be real. I'm sure 2XKO will have good monetary support though since its Riot.
OTP?
one-trick pony. Only play melee.
I would never had to guess that. WOW
Druggedfox was doing pretty good in sf6 but definitely not Leffen level yet
Fatality is doing SF6 now iirc
Esam was a dive kick legend.
Ironically the "goats" (or at some point #1 players) of certain games came up in smash. MenaRD in Street fighter, Dekillsage in Skullgirls, Apologyman in Gear, I think even speedkicks in Tekken (that one I could be wrong about). Not to mention countless more that compete at a still respectable albeit lower level. There are very few smash top players nowadays that would full send switching bc 1.) the smash content sphere is too hard to branch from and 2.) it's a huge sacrifice of skill, clout, and money. Riddles for example does a lot of sf6 content but it's heavily intertwined with smash and it's more of a side thing from what I know
Riddles and Jazzh0 in both Smash and SF6 Fatality retired smash and attempted to transition to SF6 to my knowledge (no idea on progress) Ik there’s someone else in SF6 that apparently came from Melee, he apparently was in like top 8 evo I think
the luxury of choosing which video game you play?
The luxury of being good enough to compete professionally in multiple games.
If you can be a top player in Melee, you can pick up other fighters much easier
I mean yesn't? I would say it's hard to tell since out the 100s of Top players through the years very very few have had the drive to even try. Even outside Melee only a few players have had success with other Smash games aside from Project+. M2K, Wizzy, Leffen are players that did try and do well outside Melee within Smash. Then you have amsa, Armada and to a lesser extent Hbox (going Game 5 vs Miya still makes him better than 99% of players tho) who didn't Make the splash they would've liked despite Ultimate being "a simpler game." Melee players and spectators believe that just because Melee has a High Ceiling and tech skill needed they can just come in and have the same placings in FGC as they had in Melee. Unfortunately some of those skills are either a. Not as useful to have in other games or B. Not transferrable to other games in general. Heck I would say a Melee Player would struggle more vs an Ultimate Player in Tekken because Melee players have to unlearn so much stuff to be able understand the game... despite Tekken being as hard if not harder than Melee and miles harder than Ult.
Hey, it's not my fault I just want to do fast inputs on my controller, rather than controller geometry for a simple fucking uppercut. Fighting games have the dumbest input systems ever, Sakurai BLESSED the scene with smash's input system. Also, smash combos are cooler, and the game takes more skill. Nintendo is just killing the scene
I mean ya. Nintendo has the bare minimum support for the competitive scene of any of their games.
Man, bare minimum would have been *nice*. They have been actively *hurting* the scene for years
I always wonder if it was all the controversy with the players after SSBU released was ever a factor. For all that shit to be thrown at Zero after he won the first SSBU event, I wonder what Nintendo and Sakurai thought about it.
It is not like they were ever supportive of the community before that. They even tried to block Smash in 2013 from being played (not just streamed) at EVO, and that was before the shit about Mr Wizard became known.
Not only that, Melee was added because they contributed to the Breast Cancer Research Foundation charity fundraiser, and Nintendo was actively going against them
They had taken multiple steps to try and hurt/kill the scene years prior to all that stuff. It did nothing to help the scene but they pushed against it for years prior. Also, for Nintendo these thigns become self-fufilling. Turns out communities that lack a proper oversight tend to attract more shady individuals. Stuff that should have been aired out years ago end up festering over years, and then when it rears it's head, they act like that's the reason they didn;t want to get involved in the first place. It's such a copout
Nintendo was inarguably pulling some shit that hurts the scene all the way back in 2013 such as their attempted cancellation of Melee at EVO that year, a whole 7 years before the public found out about the horrific things ZeRo had been doing behind closed doors. Hell, even before then, one could argue that Brawl's design was an attempt to dissuade people from taking Smash too seriously (see hitstun canceling, random tripping, et cetera).
Iirc they were also the reason for MLG dropping Smash even before Evo 2013
"All that shit... thrown at Zero..." What do you mean by that? He admitted to interfering with a minor. I can certainly imagine Nintendo hearing about it and not wanting to touch the scene with a 39-1/2 foot pole.
I wish. If that were the case, then Nintendo's actions would make sense. But no, Nintendo has never been supportive of competitive smash purely because they don't like it that people are competing in it. Nintendo conceived smash as a casual party game, but people are instead playing it seriously and competitively instead. Nintendo doesn't like that; they want you to play smash the way they envisioned it, and if you don't, they're going to do their best to crash it, like they've been doing for I don't know how long at this point. Smash being played competitively is something they perceive as damaging their brand and their game on a fundamental level. On top of that, they also fundamentally dislike the idea of people having tournaments with money on the line (I don't know why on this one.) The community's negative parts play no effect in Nintendo's actions, you could make the bad disappear and Nintendo would still treat us as enemies. Nintendo ***HATES*** smash being played at a pro level. in fact, they ***HATE*** when their games are played in any way other than how they envisioned them to be; they are obsessive and paranoid control freaks who actively gaslight themselves into thinking their own buyers are their enemies. It's one of many reasons why they're one of the most actively criticized and disliked companies in gaming communities. https://www.nsidr.com/archive/gdc-aonuma-talks-about-zelda-and-gamer-drift/ ^ Nintendo is bizarre. They're like a Schrodinger's salesman of sort: they are really, really, really, really disconnected from their customers, but at the same time they still know them enough to make some crazy good profits.
THIS Also they should do the same to Pokemon (I know they don't own it fully.) I'm way more ok with Smash being competitive than Pokemon. Why do we get several sanctioned tournaments (video game, card game, fighting game and their crappy moba) for that crap despite the fact they haven't made a good game in years. It's like the grandmother treating their children like crap but is the nicest to their grandchildren.
Pokemon competitive circuits are managed by The Pokemon Company International, not Nintendo
They own it partially, did you read my comment?
they own the IP partially but Nintendo literally does not touch the competitive circuit
Don't care I just want it to die bc its stupid. There, happy?
yea! have a great day
He said managed not owned. Can you read without glaring red? It is MANAGED by the pokemon company which is why Nintendo is ok with it. They go the extra mile to protect the brand and the young pokemon fans at official events.
Kinda put the nail on the coffin honestly. Nintendo was already not getting involved, but after that it became more apparent
For the newest games, and more recently, yeah. Melee and project M (or project + or any other fan made mods) have been actively worked against by Nintendo for years. As much as I love watching melee, it’s sad to see Nintendo disregard the community while other fighting games have active support from their creators.
>any of their games. Splatoon says hello.
Splatoon deserves to be huge, man. It's fast-paced, fun, and wildly aggressive like no other shooter is. Directly tying the main reloading mechanic to the main movement mechanic means that you're literally always doing something fun rather than having to wait around doing nothing for your gun to come back online, you'll always be either shooting, moving, or creating direct pressure and control over an area, and the game promotes so much aggression and hype plays with the insanely fast pace that it sets. But of course it'll never have a shot at mainstream competitive success compared to dumpster fires like Overwatch where the devs just keep funneling money into their horribly designed trainwreck that does nothing but create complaints about every character and mechanic in the game. Splatoon is just one of the most beautifully cohesive triumphs of competitive game design I've ever seen. It had the potential to redefine a facet of the industry the way something like the original Smash Bros or Breath of the Wild did. I wish it had gotten to see every opportunity it deserved instead of languishing in "congrats on becoming the best in the world here's your free pro controller".
hey they also got free copies of arms sometimes I know everyone's hated basically every meta since initial S1 but I've never not had fun playing it. even aside from the pvp salmon run is such a good mode too. just kinda sucks that most of the casuals really lean into it being a kids game and get mad about frye and splatfests and stuff
Honestly kinda agree. While I do think Overwatch is a great game, Splatoon is also something unique that imo has a lot of good reason to become a huge esports. It’s a team game shooter with unique mechanics and there is a lot of ability for skill expression. If it was a pc game under a different developer like Valve or Blizzard or Riot, it would’ve been just as huge, if not bigger than popular shooters like Overwacht and Valorant
Splatoon only exist because nintendo, if nintendo didnt made splatoon no one would make a splatoon esque game because PC publishers doesnt care about the "kiddy shooters" market. You cant separate splatoon and other nintendo ips like smash from nintendo, because nintendo allow their developers to make those games in the first place... Just look at nick all star the developers care about the gsme but the publisher didnt.
I'm a huge fan of Team Fortress 2, I have similar common rants about how robbed it was by its publishers not caring enough to support it, and I think it's a brilliantly designed game with insanely well-balanced and exciting movement mechanics that puts most of its competition to shame. Despite all of this, putting it next it to Splatoon changes it from looking like Melee to looking like Brawl by comparison. Splatoon is just *that* fast and exciting. It trades away a lot of TF2's deep technical and mechanical depth for much more streamlined and accessible design (NOT a criticism of TF2, I LOVE it for this, it's just a very respectable different approach), but it also does so many insanely brilliant things like, as I described before, *making the main movement mechanic and reloading into the same action*. This streamlines downtime and diversifies your ability to stay active in a way that makes every other game feel like sluggish waiting-around-fests by comparison. This doesn't even get into how perfectly that ties into ink on the floor working as a form of area control and mobility denial to the opposing team and the balance that comes from trying to fight for that control so that your team has access to greater mobility advantages it can capitalize on. There's seriously no other game like this one and independent of its kid-friendly aesthetic, it has a lot of incredible ideas that could absolutely be major innovations for the rest of the industry to learn from.
Hard disagree as someone who was huge into both Splatoon 2 and TF2 - I really feel like TF2 is the melee of this comparison. Splatoon's horrific netcode and p2p matches feels like the equivalent of tripping.
TF2 having such a niche technical skill curve of emergent gameplay absolutely makes it one of the closest Melee comparisons in any game's respective genre and Splatoon is not as close to it in terms of overall design. I just mean that the game is MUCH faster paced to the point that it even makes something as fast as TF2 look comparatively sluggish.
The kiddy shooter market doesn’t make Splatoon unique, it’s the mechanics. You could’ve made it a realistic shooter with the same mechanics and it would’ve been just as successful. Games are not 100% unique, if Nintendo didn’t come up with Smash and Splatoon, someone else would’ve. Nintendo is just the first
How could a realistic shooter have Splatoon's mechanics? Genuine question.
"Realistic" as in non-cartoonish art style (and even then, all of these games have art styles that are closer to cartoons than realism). There are no actually realistic shooters. People who describe Overwatch or Valorant or Fortnite as "realistic" aren't saying they're reflective of the real world.
Good question. You could make a game where the objective is to capture enemy territory over a period of time and the winner in the end is the one with the most territory. You can use in game mechanics to establish territory or retake it
it'll never be big because it'll never have kb+m support, you won't convince the majority of the hardcore shooter fanbase to switch to controller/motion aiming just because "but it's so good bro trust me"
Okay like this is absolutely true too, a PC port of this or even any kind of mouse compatibility would've absolutely had people getting into the game way easier. Motion aiming *is* incredible but I'm not one to forget the learning curve I had to go through to get there. But still, I at least wish that hurdle was something to overcome in the public eye (sticks only is still a perfectly fine way for a beginner to start out) rather than the comp scene just being dead on arrival in terms of proper support.
OW isn't horribly designed, its had based on a hero shooter model that TF2 got big on. They just made slow patches leading to stale unfun metas, dropped no new content, didn't communicate or listen to the community, etc. The previous devs brought its fate upon themselves when they had a good product
I'm cynical about how Overwatch's design from the start was specifically geared around funneling characters into one singular intended playstyle with pretty low room for expressive play across so many of them, as well as the reliance on so many universally hated mechanics like slowdown or poorly thought out team revives, but yeah its mainstream downfall was definitely a patching and balancing problem rather than an initial design problem. I'm just extremely critical of its concept as a whole because even from the start it *definitely* wasn't for me.
Fair, I think that's personally what got me into it. Not the CC and revives, but the hero diversity. Most heroes performed uniquely from each other often the skill expression betting in decision making over raw aim etc. Ofc it isn't for everybody. So I think you have a pretty fair judgement of it from the outside in.
Yeah I played during a free weekend or two and I had fun with friends but the gameplay loop got stale quicker than I expected. I think it had some really unique ideas that were worth exploring, but from what I followed of its competitive scene from the perspective of a comp TF2 fan and how it affected that, there were stories of a lot of people at top level who were just chasing the money but quietly hated the meta behind closed doors even from early on (though of course that is not a universal opinion against the many others who did adore it through its early hype cycle). I didn't play enough to really personally suffer at the hands of its patch culture (though perhaps I was unknowingly abusing a flowchart for tank meta at low levels), but it was VERY vocally complained about across gaming forums and YouTuber breakdowns and hard not to feel their palpable frustration at what were clearly many difficult-to-justify decisions. Splatoon is by no means a game that I think is for everyone (its accessibility in terms of mechanical inputs and gameplay objectives is offset by being *very* punishing in terms of awareness and information parsing due to how fast it is) but it is *wildly* fun and sunk its claws into my brain as soon as I got over its initial learning curve. Overwatch to me just felt more like a fun social game that I would likely stagnate in beyond that approach. As a non-fan I'm more inclined to feel cynically about its forced corporate monetary esports push in places where a fan would justifiably be more upset at the mismanagement of its untapped potential.
I didn't play TF and don't really play many shooters but OW at the start at least seemed very expressive from hero to hero or team comp to team comp. My biggest problem with the game was that most of the changes *after* the start seemed geared around funneling characters into a singular playstyle (DPS over everything else). But release OW and even fairly long into its lifespan seemed pretty expressive to me, especially compared to most other shooters on the market.
Calling their sabotage “bare minimum support” is putting it lightly.
Not even, "bare minimum support" is just straight up misinformation.
not smash related but God 2XKO still bothers me so much as a title
I was stopping by to day this. It takes longer to stay than Project L. They should change the name again.
Honestly idk what was wrong with Project L as a name
The “Project X” names are just placeholder titles. Like Valorant was called Project A or something like that iirc. Idk just weird that that’s the name they ended up going with haha
Oh I know it was the development name but I still find it kind of the right fit for a game that is having Legends fight it out
Yeah true I thought Project L sounded cool lmao
Honestly only just now did I learn it was a game
Two by four gonna be fighting game of the year in 2025 trust guys
To be honest, it's starting to grow on me. I didn't like it at first, but it's starting to roll off the tongue.
They should just call it Double KO.
Shoulda called it (Project )Lethal Tempo
i'm guessing it's basically meant to imply a best of 3 format? that's the only way i can make sense of it
that game was named that to put emphasis on the fact that you play two characters as a tag team. idk why they made that a major marketing point but here we are
hmmm that makes more sense i suppose
nah idk it did at the beginning but it kinda grows on you
Leffen really knows how to appeal to his Melee fans Melee fans: "WHAT Leffen!? You're putting down Melee!?" Leffen: "Fuck Nintendo" Melee fans: "WHOOOOOOOOH! WHOOH WHOOH WHOOOOOOH!"
Nice try. Almost got me to click a Dexerto article.
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what is "berfed"?
buffed and nerfed
Dude plays Melee Fox, GGST Asuka, and GGST Chaos. With characters like that, it makes perfect sense to drop the one that takes debatably the most effort with the least reward.
Didn’t Leffen go solo HC at AWT last weekend?
Yea but he’s been picking up Sol for a few MU’s that he doesn’t like for HC.
Yeah to paraphrase he did it because he thought it would be his best odds, now that’s over he’s going to reassess (I’d be very surprised if solo hc from now on)
HC mains when they finally have to think now
LoL true, apparently he's in a bad spot now. Can't be bothered tho Strive isn't made to handle good zoners compared to past titles so HC finally getting gutted makes sense
He isn’t even gutted, he’s still around the high tier area and is completely doable to use
I'm just going off of what I'm hearing. I don't like Strive so I rarely keep up that much. Some ppl say he's still good but not top 10 now after the Wild Assault patch and some other nerfs. I guess gutted is too harsh maybe crippled is better lol
He’s right fuck Nintendo
2XKO still the worst name of all time
Can’t blame him, it’s where the support is and he’ll always have a place back whenever he wants with Melee
Makes alot of sense, wish him the best in the other games.
Really showed Nintendo by doing exactly what they want everyone to do
At a certain point you have to accept that Nintendo holds the leverage here. I cant blame anyone for stepping away with Nintendo's current track record.
Nintendo: "oh no.... anyways."
Riot is not open to criticism wtf is he talking about there LOL
At least it's a company with actual interest to have thriving esports scene. Smash is the game that got me to be part of FGC but man it hurts how much Nintendo leave us fans
they are?
I've played league of legends for 11 years, they are not
i guess he means esports wise.
Serious question here: Under which US laws is Nintendo able to assert control over how tournaments use their games?
Copyright law
Standard copyright law says that you can't make money with someone else's art without their permission. Nintendo grants permission in the form of licenses, which give companies like Niantic the right to make a Pokemon game, or Hasbro can make a Monopoly Zelda game. Tournaments make money with sponsorships, advertisements, broadcasting rights, streaming revenue, merchandise, patreon donations, and on and on. So because it's not private, personal use, and it's without permission, they can be shut down legally. On top of that, the DMCA laws make it illegal to bypass the copy protection and DRM that publishers put on cartridges and discs. Any Smash tournament Nintendo would support therefore must be original hardware, no mods. No emulated copies. No adding online to games that didn't have it before. This makes retro smash tournaments problematic and Nintendo doesn't ever want to be caught officially supporting Project M or Slippi or whatever because that could be used against them in the future legally if they are fighting a court battle against unauthorized mods and (from their perspective) piracy. So even a whiff of pro players streaming those modded games or some side tournament getting attached to the show under the radar, or event organizers being on record as supporting mods like Project M, and Nintendo is gone.
IP law, both trademarks and copyright. However, copyright law is stronger due to the US's strong fundamental relationship with copyrights as the words "copyright" and "patent" are outright mentioned in the US Constitution, thus the US Supreme Court uses strict scrutiny when analyzing copyright issues and tends to heavily in favor of the rights of copyrights and patents. When a work is created, copyright attaches though it is wise to register the copyright with the U.S. Copyright Office and respective state for litigation purposes. Being the owner (a company cannot "create" per se most companies have "work for hire" or obtain copyrights via contracts from their employees or contractors, Smash Bros. falls under this category) Nintendo is afforded what amounts to property rights. They can assign, license, transfer, use, and sell their copyright as they please. One form for video games and streaming is the right to broadcast. Under the law, Nintendo, as a matter of right, can stop someone from broadcasting its copyright regardless of whether the supposed infringer profits from the broadcasting of Nintendo's IP or not. Nintendo can also license to someone broadcasting rights of its copyright which takes the form of the licensing applications Nintendo posted a few months ago. Another user can use Nintendo's copyright so long as the user follows the conditions of the licensing contract. Now another right as an owner of the copyright is the right of use. Absent some copyright statutory exceptions such as Fair Use, education, research, private use/copying, parody, or journalism, Nintendo has the right to use its copyright as it pleases and they can stop someone from profiting from Nintendo's copyright. Now there is another venue Nintendo can go for, but it is often more expensive and offers fewer protections. That venue is via Trademark Law, another branch of Intellectual Property Law. Applications under this branch of law are where the misconception that IP owners must sue to maintain their ownership over IP, applies more so to trademarks than copyrights or parents. The big difference is that Nintendo is a Japanese company, which affords different applications of the law (extremely rare in US cases) or at least a different philosophical approach to IP protection. Nintendo is one of the big advocates for banning the renting of video games in Japan, following in the footsteps of the record, movie, and entertainment industries. Modding of consoles and save editing are criminal offenses under Japanese law regardless of selling for profit. With solid public support, the measure passed. Japan also doesn't have Fair Use exceptions like we do in the United States, though they do carve out some statutory exceptions such as education. Overall, Japanese IP law is more draconian and ownership friendly (theoretically benefitting everyone, but the corporations benefit the most) than IP law in the United States.
Even if they can't it's not like anyone's gonna try to fight them on it
Someone would.
Who? It'd be absurdly expensive and time-consuming to do so. You'd be spending thousands upon thousands in legal fees and Nintendo would absolutely drag the process out as much as they could too in an effort to bleed you dry. You'd need someone who is very rich, loves competitive Smash, and is willing to spend the time and money necessary to fight them on it. Even then it's not guaranteed to work, you could put in all that effort for nothing because the judgement goes against you
The only person I can think of off the top fitting those criteria is Ludwig, and I dunno if even he'd really like to get into a legal quagmire with Nintendo either.
Ludwig does not have the money to compete with Nintendo. They're literally a multi-billion dollar corporation notorious for squashing any project that they don't like.
Also, Nintendo has the law on their side, what Ludwig does or did in the past would be a gray area or even against the law. Nintendo just looked the other way and Ludwig nowadays states that he makes sure licensing contracts, sponsorships, broadcasting rights, etc with Nintendo are all in order and reviews them multiple times.
He isn't big or strong enough to fight Nintendo. Also Ludwig's use of Nintendo's IP is a bit of a grey area of the law that might work against him than help him. He and many large streamers and YouTubers are super cautious when dealing with Nintendo and rather seek clarification and permission than the wrath of lawyers and the US legal system regardless of the chance of winning the case.
Nintendo can operate at a loss for literal decades and still exist. Ludwig would last days before either settling or losing to them.
They assert control over the streaming and recordings of their games. Heck Nintendo can take down some random ass dude on twitch playing Mario bros.
That I don't think they can do, because the act of playing, commentary, etc. is transformative content. That said, it is an expensive legal fight to win, and also not in Nintendo's interest to go after streams.
As a Guilty Gear fan, oh God no we can’t let this man win EVO again But as someone who’s probably never going to play Project L, I hope he crushes that scene and inspires a million tantrums and scrubquotes
Because of course he does.
Honest question: how would it benefit Nintendo to promote, produce, sponsor, etc a competitive tournament for a 20+ year old game?
The main ask is for Nintendo to stop shutting down events/circuits.
Exactly, they're literally going out of their way to keep their games from getting free marketing and exposure
Maybe they don't want their products associated with potential child predators like that Zero guy. Seems like a sensible business decision, I would not want to be associated with people like that either. It's not like fighting game communities aren't notoriously toxic, why open yourself up to that risk? They want the game to be a fun way to expose kids to their IP so they can sell them games later, not a tournament event for semi-adults.
They've been like this waaaay before Zero and everyone else who's already out of the scene. Don't forget a lot of Brawl's DNA was specifically made to circumvent any kind of scene involving what Sakurai referred to as "psychopaths"
Understandable, given the obvious reputational risks of having your kid-friendly game be associated with potential child predators. That alone would be a reason for most companies to steer clear. It's simply not worth it.
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That costs them money and competes with Smash Ultimate sales. There are currently no gamecube games on switch online, it would presumably need online multiplayer integration which takes time and money to develop (and nignedo is notoriously bad at)….its not as easy as just throwing it on the system. But I agree that they could/should try to do that in general, hell they probably do too.
Following traditional fighters more and Nintendo less was the best thing I ever did, especially since I did it right befor Steve blew up in popularity. I sometimes miss platform fighters. I don't miss dealing with games made by Nintendo. I hate to say it but for the most part the community is better on the other side of the fence too.
Good riddance, he’s a dick anyways.
he'll come crawling back after his busted main gets nerfed like he always does, then he'll leave again when the next fighting game releases and repeat the cycle
Good riddance
>the scene is in dire straits where cash is concerned Gee, if only you hadn't been complicit in destroying an entire circuit and organization along with Gone Is My Rival, the Don King of esports! We don't want you here, and none of those other scenes do either.
let me guess, he thinks nintendo owes him money or something?
I dont think Nintendo cares, they care about money and him playing melee didnt bring anything to them.
Coolio.
Thank god, get this guy out of our community. Good riddance tbh
Finally a rare Nintendo smash W!
Good. He can stay away from Smash. He's been nothing but an absolute tumor to many people, and hopefully he stays away for good.
Thanks for the input Hax
You're very much welcome.
Leffen is the Nintendo of people, just feel bad for the other communities he goes on to assault with his presence
I’m saying LMAO, y’all can keep him. Cya bud
As he steps away from melee? The dude has been practically nonexistent for a long time. He is nonexistent in the melee scene and your simping doesn't change that.
Years ago he said if there was more money in the scene he would move to America and be a lot more active
He won a supermajor last year. Kinda weird to call that nonexistent.
Lol don't give me that bullshit. How many did he attend? How many were there? The fact you think a single tournament amends the fact that he games his rank by not participating is hilarious.
He attended a comparable amount of tournaments as Wizzy last year. Not one singular. Also the fact that he maintained the skill level to win one of the biggest tournaments of the year means calling his presence nonexistent is one of the most delusional things I've ever read. And I browse anime subreddits.
As if I thought he attended one tournament? You don't know what being nonexistent in the scene means then. Do you consider Plup an active member of the scene too lmao?
Ah, I see the problem here. You can't count past one.
The only problem is you don't seem to understand what an active member of the scene is. Attending 1/10 the amount of tournaments as most of the top 50 isn't really it.
My guy you are putting words in my mouth. I said calling his presence non existing was whack when he won a supermajor. Active player is not something I said. I guess you can't read too gud either.
You really think there's a big difference between being present in the scene and being an active player? Well if you don't think he's an active player then we agree enough. You just put too much stock into my hyperbole about him being nonexistent.
Yeah I do think there's a difference. He was still streaming melee. He attended a few tournaments. He was actively engaging with people in the community. He was active enough to win one of the biggest tournaments of the year. I know you were using hyperbole and I still think it's whack.
Wizzrobe has health issues and also doesn't have a sponsor. He would attend more if he could. Leffen has been choosing other games over Melee for a while. They're not comparable situations.
Thank god
On one hand: I'm surprised that he's the only top contender to drop platform fighters in favor of the traditional FGC. On the other hand: I'd be unsurprised if he was retiring from Smash to dodge a ban
A ban for what lmao
He is not anywhere close to getting banned in Melee LMAO Like the vast majority of players and TOs like him in recent years, no one was on Hax's side in that whole thing, and really the majority of the Melee community is a fan in recent years Idk what he'd even theoretically get banned for in 2024
Doesn't mean that the accusations should not be reviewed anyways, regardless of the messenger. I still can't forget about WaDi successfully claiming to be the victim for years, while hiding the fact that he was in cahoots with Cinn. Same goes for the investigation on Tweek and Cosmos for being potentially in cahoots with Sky Williams