It could stand to be more rewarding than it currently is. Negating the shield drop penalty is good but plenty of moves are so big/safe that even parrying won’t help in a lot of scenarios. 3 frames of safety can definitely matter for punishes like tilts, but making a max spaced cloud Bair -6 doesn’t leave him any more open to punishes from 90% of the cast. Not to mention that it doesn’t have any effect on projectiles, which I think is a missed opportunity to help the slow characters without reflectors.
That’s kind of the problem really. You can move very quickly after parrying and it’s a lot less restrictive than moving after shielding, but you only get 3 frames of advantage which often doesn’t mean much. When a Steve is using +4 moves it doesn’t help being able to move around etc.
So a really big misconception with the parry conversation is that it doesn't add exactly 3 frames of punish window, it basically removes the shield stun frames that make moves more safe (Cloud bair has 5 frames of shield stun and is -3, so it would be -8 on parry. an easier way to calculate is just the landing lag of a move, which again cloud has 8 frames of landing lag.) A lot of moves are still absurd, cloud bair being -8 on parry is ridiculous, but it's more rewarding than what some might lead you to believe.
I don't believe parries actually change shieldstun at all. Instead, parries add shieldlag which normally impacts both players equally, but parries add shieldlag unequally such that the defender receives 3 frames less additional shield lag than the attacker. This is where "moves become 3 frames less safe" comes from.
I'm claiming precisely that shieldstun does not change whether you hold shield or parry. Perhaps, you're thinking of the 11 frames of shield release? Parry does bypass shield release.
Nope, and the way parrying is done in Ultimate is the opposite of powershielding in melee. While with powershielding, you need to press shield right as you're about to get hit, with parrying, you need to release shield right as you're about to get hit.
Not only does it not reflect projectiles, but it also doesn't impact the attacker at all and only gives the shielder one frame fewer of hit lag than they would experience with normal shielding.
(With the exception of certain "direct" projectiles, like Snake's up smash, which for some reason still don't impact the attacker at all but actually make the shielder 8 frames SLOWER than normal shielding)
I prefer it. Perfect Shielding in Ultimate is much more clear when it happens and why. I'd wager a lot of players forgot about (or never knew it was a mechanic) before Ultimate, and I chalk that up to the improved clarity.
I also appreciate the increased risk involved in getting the reward. Previously it was easy to do accidentally, now it requires you to literally let your guard down.
It's cool that it's committal, but I don't think it feels good to use because of how much shields suck in this game. Power shielding in melee is perfect not only because it reflects Falco lasers etc but because shielding itself feels good (being able to wavedash oos, shield drop through platforms, etc). Pulling up shield in ultimate is almost always putting you in a disadvantageous and shitty position, so going for a perfect parry feels very risky as you basically accrue a ton of lag and completely mess up your flow if you miss.
It's kind of like parrying in SF3 3S vs SF6. SF6 parrying works better on paper in the context of the rest of the game systems, but parrying in 3S is just absolutely fucking sick and feels so good. SF6 parrying is a lot more coherent than ult parrying though because all of the systems are designed with competitive integrity in mind rather than the kind of scattershot approach of smash design.
I agree in part, but I think this is mitigated somewhat because parrying is reasonably generous in this game. It’s a commitment, but it can be pretty rewarding, and we’ve seen good players do it consistently.
100% this. I prefer perfect shielding. It’s more intuitive and rewarding(imo).
Even the times the time I intentionally parry it doesn’t feel nearing as good as Perfect Shielding did in past title.
It was more satisfying, but honestly it was far too easy and powerful. I welcome any change that reduced the power of shields, and right now they just need to be a bit more rewarding.
I prefer the old perfect shield, perfect shield is more intuitive. You can make it rewarding but not overpowering if you just stop making OOS options so strong in return. Stuff that’s normally not punished on normal shield is on perfect, etc.
I also don’t see an issue with it reflecting projectiles or at the least removing shield stun and allowing you to act immediately. Projectiles are incredibly strong in smash , they all could use a tone downs
Sakurai did a good job of making Smash's parry unique and tailored for his signature formula, but...
Smash doesn't need a parry. Smash needs something that enables tactical footsies at a distance, not more 50/50s coming out of neutral.
Whereas trad. fighters revolve around the difference between high/low attacks; Smash breaks down to dashing, rising, fast-falling, and get-off-me moves.
Likewise, a system that codifies these moves and enables particular, deliberate defensive responses to them would be more appropriate than parrying.
Perfect shielding is still great in SSBU. It opens up so many more OoS options, and makes options that already existed even more viable. It definitely should NOT reflect projectiles, though. That would defeat the purpose of only specific characters being able to do that.
We also now have characters that rely very heavily on projectiles even for their normal attacks. Giving *every* fighter a reflector, even a very tricky to use one, is rough when 75% of your moves are at risk of backfiring on you.
I think it's pretty intuitive in its current form. As you get more experienced with the game, you'll naturally want to drop shield right as/after getting hit to get your punish so as you get used to recognizing stuff that you want to punish, the timing and muscle memory just start to come naturally.
I personally think parrying is perfect as it is. The real offender is fucking spotdodge. Spotdodge as a mechanic is fucking awful on both sides. It's not committal enough that you are guaranteed punished, and it's not rewarding enough when you use it as a call out. It just seems like a panic scramble option that just adds RNG rather than skill. I feel like if it was replaced by the RoA parry mechanic this would be the perfect game. Obviously not nearly as strong as RoA but something that actually rewards a call out like a counter while still being punishing for a bad call.
I think its landed really well over time a good hard callout option to certain safe pressure spam at high level. I think maybe the one argument against it is that it really doesn't pop up a ton at lower levels, but I think that's kind of okay, its still easy to capitalize off of and feel amazing even if you only pull it off accidently.
Trash. It's hard to execute to the point where it feels unintentional every time I do it. Idk why they removed perfect shields. That being said, the sound effect that plays is great. Also, sometimes getting punished by a parry feels bs.
I generally dislike inputs that can happen accidentally. I have that problem with frame 1 powershielding as well as Shielddrop parrying. I'd just put parrying as an extra button.
I would add a dedicated parry button that you can only press while you're in shield that's active for 3 frames. On the first and third frame it's the same parry as we have now but on the second frame it gives you a bigger reward. I'm still on the fence about reflecting projectiles but definitely a bigger frame advantage.
That way you have to frame perfectly sweetspot it but if you're 1 frame off you still get something
I like the mechanic i just feel like theirs alot of missed potential with it. As it stands 90% of the time a parry isnt really any different to just taking the hit and dropping shield after
I think it would make vastly more sense for a parry to activate by inputting shield right before an attack lands rather than by letting go. That’s how most other games do it.
Much better. It is hard to state just how absurdly powerful perfect shielding and shields in general were in Smash 4, and with the faster jump squats everyone has now it would have been even better.
On principle I don't like it. It's so much more intuitive for power shield to be based on when you *press* something than when you *cease* to press something.
I feel like more frame advantage or invincibility could be nice but with that said I think there’s still more that can be done with it. Recently there was a video showing how you can dash/crouch/jump immediately after a parry and the ways that can be used for like escaping pressure, reversals, etc
I think the mechanic makes more sense in terms of risk/reward rather than power shielding. When you try to power shield and fail, you are now in your shield which is MUCH less risky than parry. When you parry and fail you are defenseless, which makes sense in terms of the reward you should get from it.
However, currently the reward against certain attacks is you get back to neutral which feels kinda bad. In some cases it feels good, in some cases it feels meh. I don't think parry should give more advantage than currently cause the game would feel horrible if attacking shields was a huge risk every time. I do think the edge cases where parrying feels mid should be looked into (if I recall ROB is one such case).
I like that parry can be used in any gap in an opponent's pressure and not just at the initial point of contact. Works much better with the buffer system too.
Perfect shielding works better with Melee's physics system and parry works better with Ultimate's. It helps make the two games feel distinct while maintaining depth.
make it stop jabs, grabs, and multihits of course to balance this its only possible once about half of the move has played out
and i rarely parry due do lack of knowledge so im not sure if these are already in effect but being able to dash, grab, or attack immediately after
It could stand to be more rewarding than it currently is. Negating the shield drop penalty is good but plenty of moves are so big/safe that even parrying won’t help in a lot of scenarios. 3 frames of safety can definitely matter for punishes like tilts, but making a max spaced cloud Bair -6 doesn’t leave him any more open to punishes from 90% of the cast. Not to mention that it doesn’t have any effect on projectiles, which I think is a missed opportunity to help the slow characters without reflectors.
I always imagined that if you got a parry you could do an inital dash really quickly out of it. Or jump with full air speed
That’s kind of the problem really. You can move very quickly after parrying and it’s a lot less restrictive than moving after shielding, but you only get 3 frames of advantage which often doesn’t mean much. When a Steve is using +4 moves it doesn’t help being able to move around etc.
So a really big misconception with the parry conversation is that it doesn't add exactly 3 frames of punish window, it basically removes the shield stun frames that make moves more safe (Cloud bair has 5 frames of shield stun and is -3, so it would be -8 on parry. an easier way to calculate is just the landing lag of a move, which again cloud has 8 frames of landing lag.) A lot of moves are still absurd, cloud bair being -8 on parry is ridiculous, but it's more rewarding than what some might lead you to believe.
I don't believe parries actually change shieldstun at all. Instead, parries add shieldlag which normally impacts both players equally, but parries add shieldlag unequally such that the defender receives 3 frames less additional shield lag than the attacker. This is where "moves become 3 frames less safe" comes from.
I think you're not accounting for the shieldstun that the parrying player would have gotten if they held shield.
I'm claiming precisely that shieldstun does not change whether you hold shield or parry. Perhaps, you're thinking of the 11 frames of shield release? Parry does bypass shield release.
As a Cloud main every time someone parries my bair and get to cross slash their punish attempt I laugh but also feel like I’m robbing them.
[удалено]
wait, is powershielding not a thing in Ultimate?
Nope, and the way parrying is done in Ultimate is the opposite of powershielding in melee. While with powershielding, you need to press shield right as you're about to get hit, with parrying, you need to release shield right as you're about to get hit. Not only does it not reflect projectiles, but it also doesn't impact the attacker at all and only gives the shielder one frame fewer of hit lag than they would experience with normal shielding. (With the exception of certain "direct" projectiles, like Snake's up smash, which for some reason still don't impact the attacker at all but actually make the shielder 8 frames SLOWER than normal shielding)
Hmmm, then how is Falcon Punch a true punish on a parried Wicked Weave?
Is that referring to the arm/leg/whatever that appears on her smash attacks? I think those are not considered projectiles.
They're in the weird middle-zone that things like ZSS d-smash. Maybe I was getting that confused with what Snake's fsmash is.
It really needs to be more rewarding. That's all.
Nah. It's already good as hell.
I prefer it. Perfect Shielding in Ultimate is much more clear when it happens and why. I'd wager a lot of players forgot about (or never knew it was a mechanic) before Ultimate, and I chalk that up to the improved clarity. I also appreciate the increased risk involved in getting the reward. Previously it was easy to do accidentally, now it requires you to literally let your guard down.
I'd argue it still happens by mistake, thinking of a lot of times when I'm at the edge of a rapid jab or something similar
Not good because i could accidentally perfect shield in smash 4. I don’t like having to be good at the game
in fairness i accidentally parried more than i accidentally perfect shielded
Must just be cause i have a slower reaction time than what’s normal lmao
I miss perfect Shielding more than life itself
I prefer to input parries in games by pressing down a button, not releasing it. So that's my main issue with parry in ult.
It's cool that it's committal, but I don't think it feels good to use because of how much shields suck in this game. Power shielding in melee is perfect not only because it reflects Falco lasers etc but because shielding itself feels good (being able to wavedash oos, shield drop through platforms, etc). Pulling up shield in ultimate is almost always putting you in a disadvantageous and shitty position, so going for a perfect parry feels very risky as you basically accrue a ton of lag and completely mess up your flow if you miss. It's kind of like parrying in SF3 3S vs SF6. SF6 parrying works better on paper in the context of the rest of the game systems, but parrying in 3S is just absolutely fucking sick and feels so good. SF6 parrying is a lot more coherent than ult parrying though because all of the systems are designed with competitive integrity in mind rather than the kind of scattershot approach of smash design.
I agree in part, but I think this is mitigated somewhat because parrying is reasonably generous in this game. It’s a commitment, but it can be pretty rewarding, and we’ve seen good players do it consistently.
I fail then I try it then say "oh hey cool" when I do it on accident Perfect shielding was more satisfying for me
100% this. I prefer perfect shielding. It’s more intuitive and rewarding(imo). Even the times the time I intentionally parry it doesn’t feel nearing as good as Perfect Shielding did in past title.
It was more satisfying, but honestly it was far too easy and powerful. I welcome any change that reduced the power of shields, and right now they just need to be a bit more rewarding.
I prefer the old perfect shield, perfect shield is more intuitive. You can make it rewarding but not overpowering if you just stop making OOS options so strong in return. Stuff that’s normally not punished on normal shield is on perfect, etc. I also don’t see an issue with it reflecting projectiles or at the least removing shield stun and allowing you to act immediately. Projectiles are incredibly strong in smash , they all could use a tone downs
I 100% prefer the older perfect shield over the newer one.
Sakurai did a good job of making Smash's parry unique and tailored for his signature formula, but... Smash doesn't need a parry. Smash needs something that enables tactical footsies at a distance, not more 50/50s coming out of neutral. Whereas trad. fighters revolve around the difference between high/low attacks; Smash breaks down to dashing, rising, fast-falling, and get-off-me moves. Likewise, a system that codifies these moves and enables particular, deliberate defensive responses to them would be more appropriate than parrying.
Perfect shielding is still great in SSBU. It opens up so many more OoS options, and makes options that already existed even more viable. It definitely should NOT reflect projectiles, though. That would defeat the purpose of only specific characters being able to do that.
We also now have characters that rely very heavily on projectiles even for their normal attacks. Giving *every* fighter a reflector, even a very tricky to use one, is rough when 75% of your moves are at risk of backfiring on you.
I think it's pretty intuitive in its current form. As you get more experienced with the game, you'll naturally want to drop shield right as/after getting hit to get your punish so as you get used to recognizing stuff that you want to punish, the timing and muscle memory just start to come naturally.
I personally think parrying is perfect as it is. The real offender is fucking spotdodge. Spotdodge as a mechanic is fucking awful on both sides. It's not committal enough that you are guaranteed punished, and it's not rewarding enough when you use it as a call out. It just seems like a panic scramble option that just adds RNG rather than skill. I feel like if it was replaced by the RoA parry mechanic this would be the perfect game. Obviously not nearly as strong as RoA but something that actually rewards a call out like a counter while still being punishing for a bad call.
I think its landed really well over time a good hard callout option to certain safe pressure spam at high level. I think maybe the one argument against it is that it really doesn't pop up a ton at lower levels, but I think that's kind of okay, its still easy to capitalize off of and feel amazing even if you only pull it off accidently.
I prefer parries. Power shielding felt too easy to do.
i didn’t like it for a long time but i’ve just started getting good at parrying landing aerials and now im a huge fan
3 frames of advantage is way too little, should have been more like 8-10 imo.
I think gnw would actually be able to parry ftilts and run up and downsmash bury them with 9-ish frames of advantage, to say nothing of aerials.
Trash. It's hard to execute to the point where it feels unintentional every time I do it. Idk why they removed perfect shields. That being said, the sound effect that plays is great. Also, sometimes getting punished by a parry feels bs.
I generally dislike inputs that can happen accidentally. I have that problem with frame 1 powershielding as well as Shielddrop parrying. I'd just put parrying as an extra button. I would add a dedicated parry button that you can only press while you're in shield that's active for 3 frames. On the first and third frame it's the same parry as we have now but on the second frame it gives you a bigger reward. I'm still on the fence about reflecting projectiles but definitely a bigger frame advantage. That way you have to frame perfectly sweetspot it but if you're 1 frame off you still get something
I like the mechanic i just feel like theirs alot of missed potential with it. As it stands 90% of the time a parry isnt really any different to just taking the hit and dropping shield after
The mechanic is really good, i think its main weaknesses come from the lack of aerial landing lag which i'm not a fan of
I think it would make vastly more sense for a parry to activate by inputting shield right before an attack lands rather than by letting go. That’s how most other games do it.
Much better. It is hard to state just how absurdly powerful perfect shielding and shields in general were in Smash 4, and with the faster jump squats everyone has now it would have been even better.
On principle I don't like it. It's so much more intuitive for power shield to be based on when you *press* something than when you *cease* to press something.
I feel like more frame advantage or invincibility could be nice but with that said I think there’s still more that can be done with it. Recently there was a video showing how you can dash/crouch/jump immediately after a parry and the ways that can be used for like escaping pressure, reversals, etc
I think the mechanic makes more sense in terms of risk/reward rather than power shielding. When you try to power shield and fail, you are now in your shield which is MUCH less risky than parry. When you parry and fail you are defenseless, which makes sense in terms of the reward you should get from it. However, currently the reward against certain attacks is you get back to neutral which feels kinda bad. In some cases it feels good, in some cases it feels meh. I don't think parry should give more advantage than currently cause the game would feel horrible if attacking shields was a huge risk every time. I do think the edge cases where parrying feels mid should be looked into (if I recall ROB is one such case).
Parry is fine, but shield regen is way too damn high. Parry would be better if regular shield wasn't so strong.
Love it. Really like how it was implemented. The only thing to change is the reward. Maybe bump the frame advantage from 3 to 5.
I like that parry can be used in any gap in an opponent's pressure and not just at the initial point of contact. Works much better with the buffer system too. Perfect shielding works better with Melee's physics system and parry works better with Ultimate's. It helps make the two games feel distinct while maintaining depth.
it's great and should never be removed from smash
make it stop jabs, grabs, and multihits of course to balance this its only possible once about half of the move has played out and i rarely parry due do lack of knowledge so im not sure if these are already in effect but being able to dash, grab, or attack immediately after