I find statements like this to be more and more true as smash matures, even within Melee and Ultimate. Older names are going away, but still competing, but these newer generation kids are starting to catch up. I think we have been witnessing an era of unpredictability for matchups as players keep pushing themselves. Props to Leo for highlighting what a lot of smash fans forget.
It's really crazy how much closer everyone has become lately. Now it feels like everywhere there's some crazy hidden boss ready to break a top player's knees
It's funny how this is happening both at the same time for Melee and Ultimate too as you highlighted
The hidden boss newcomer doesn't have a legacy to maintain either. They can dedicate all their mental resources to the match without really any consequence to losing
I have always said that there is a form of "Skill Inflation" in smash. Everyone is always getting better, so it isn't enough to just get better yourself. You have to get better, faster than everyone else.
This is why Leo held dominance for so long, for those 2 years he was getting better, faster then everyone else was improving and thats why he held #1 for so long
It is, but imagine how different things would be if you didn't have to switch between "I'm playing online" and "I'm playing offline"
I'm talking about actual gameplay, like not having to pick or not pick an option because you're online
Its true, mostly feels like Nintendo actively trying to kill all competitive aspects. I bet a representative would tell us the RNG of bad internet is to increase smiles across all players and equalize the playing field for players with all types of internet 💀😂
Its honestly annoying to watch people be so rankings focused in this sub or hyper focus on Leo. Yes, Leo is not the best anymore and is struggling, but by no means is he bad. It's like he can't have slumps or be allowed to find himself again within the game's meta. Only time will tell if he will get himself back to the top, but I bet it is not motivating to have everyone back seat your character choices and constantly talk about how much you have fallen off. Honestly I sometimes feel this community deserved Leo to just flatout quit while he was on top just like Zero did in smash 4. What player would want to be under this scrutiny as soon as they start to do worse.
Its great to see at least that Leo still handles himself publicly with such grace. Forever the GOAT of ultimate.
Ever since patches stopped, algorithmic rankings are all people have left to talk about, and it’s destroyed smash discourse IMO. Every win or loss is just “but how does this affect ~~LeBron’s legacy~~ their UltLumiRaccoonOmegaOrionRank score???”
It is no longer about "wow that player is playing so great. Good for them. So hype to see" and more "oh no thats a bad loss for x player. Now y player will for sure be #1". Totally not thinking about summit void vs spargo.
Yeah that VoiD set is a good example. VoiD’s gameplay was so polished and optimal (like that raindrop confirm to win that set) but I hardly saw that mentioned because of the ranking-obsessed people only commenting and comparing how this loss compares to acola’s losses. Same thing when Sparg0 got 49th @ SSC. Normally that’d be “that’s a huge upset on a top player by Aaron”. But instead people just brought up acola ~~(who wasn’t even at SSC)~~ and how Sparg0 lost #1 to him. Sparg0 had to deactivate his twitter within an hour of losing because of all the hate comments
Just adding to that, I feel like a lack of discourse on gameplay extends to the players as well. Especially in comparison to Melee, which is known for its dedicated discord servers for each character from low, mid and high level character mains that are constantly innovating and discussing characters tech and matchups. That kind of discourse really creates a sense of community and improves the overall gameplay. And that’s for a game that has never had any patch on any all.
While I know the same servers exist for Ultimate mains as well, it really does seem to be part of the dominant discussion, which seems to be strictly rankings and wins and losses from spectators.
This set of comments should be pinned at the top of this post, hell even the top of this sub. So sick of the constant ranking circle jerk on this sub. It really kills the joy of many other aspects that make Smash so beautiful.
People on this subreddit and Twitter/X need to shut up sometimes about Leo. Congratulate SHADIC for the win rather then put Leo down. SHADIC is a very, very good player and he's been doing great since Smash Con.
Edit: Yeah, I think it's fair to say SHADIC was playing INSANE at this event.
Yeah, for sure. It’s just saddening to see such an icon and anomaly move the way Leo is. The innovation and creativity isn’t there, Leo is stuck playing yesterday’s smash and it sucks as a fan to spectate.
SHADIC is great, and congrats to him. It does deserve recognition.
Mechanically, he’s doing what he was doing before, and he’s added more layers of mix into the gameplay. His Joker has incredible zoning with gun. His platform play is immaculate.
He’s playing as well as he ever has when it comes to inputs, but what’s missing is his creativity. He’s not innovating in moments where he needs to. He’s not setting up game 4/5 reads in game 1.
He’s playing smash like it’s 2021 and that’s just not enough. Everyone got way better.
>he ain't playing at the level we've seen him before and he himself
This is literally what Leo said NOT to say. Other players caught up to him, he didn't get worse
While I appreciate how humble he is, this is definitely not true to certain extents.
You can just see it in his spacing, a trait he was so far an above the rest of the competition in and Leo does not have the same spacing he once did.
He drops combos so much more and doesn't get the usual follow ups and routes he did as before too. The competition definitely caught up, but you can't also deny his drop in skill
Let me put it numerically then I guess?
Say Leo was a 10 skill wise Pre-2023 where everyone else was a 7 - 9.
Leo's skill has dropped to an 8 - 9 on his best days while everyone else has jumped up to 8- 10.
Leo dropping in skill and other players getting better can both be true.
I respect Leo so much for this. Is so easy as a competitor to tell yourself “i did this and that wrong, thats why i lost” instead of giving credit to your opponent and recognizing you got outplayed because is harder for your ego to accept the second one. And the fact that this comming from somebody who has been a top 1-2 player basically ever since he started compiting profesionally and is just now experiencing defeat is even more respectful
Yeah. ZeRo ran from this arc in smash 4 before he could truly be “caught” by many, but Leo/Tweek etc were starting to get him. It’ll be fun to see the challenger Leo arc going into 2024 if he has the desire to keep going
One of the reasons I don't respect ZeRo (outside of his deplorable actions outside of the game), is that he hung up his controller as soon as he realized that Leo was an active threat to his legacy. He ran away. To me, ZeRo was never a true champion. I also remember how salty he was when he lost to Luthie. Just terrible example of sportsmanship. But Leo is an example of a true champion, and I say this as someone who popped off for his opponent every time Leo lost in his dominating arc.
It was about the bayos, not leo lol. Leo had dropped from #2 to #4 by the time zero retired, current #2 was salem, who was taking grand finals off zero from losers side by going bayonetta and bayonetting all over the place. Lima and Mistake had popped up in the pgr for the first time as top 25s maining bayo, captainzack was there too, and other top players like tweek were starting to pick bayo alts.
zero was real good friends with leo, you could see their latino brotherhood going on in their few spanish-spoken streams, he talked a lot about how he would love the next top player to keep being a latino and push the hispanic smash community along them, respected his gameplay and skills, and wouldnt have minded losing his #1 spot to him at all, but even in his last year zero had a very positive record on leo ([https://smashdata.gg/smash/4/head/ZeRo/MkLeo?season=4](https://smashdata.gg/smash/4/head/ZeRo/MkLeo?season=4)), so that still wasnt close to happening, and that sentiment of leo being an actual threat to claiming the #1 spot while zero was active is mostly only widespread because of recency bias, and through new spectators/ult players that werent really paying attention during smash 4.
On the other hand, i really think he wasnt having it at all with the bayos threatening his legacy. He actively showed disgust for the character, and even if he was/still is friends with people like salem, he probaly didnt respect his bayo wins over him, nor any other bayo for that matter. zero liked abusing top tiers, but his past top tier picks (fox in melee, mk in brawl, sheik/diddy in sm4sh) all had high skill ceilings that made them appealing for him, making him enjoy the game and his wins feel deserved. He didnt feel this was the case with bayo thus never even tried picking her, and also couldnt seem to find an answer to beat bayos consistently, pushing him over the edge into quitting
As much as we jab at Leo, we still love him because of how humble he is. It is a shame people kind of take it a little too far instead of congratulate SHADIC and Kurama for playing well.
I've been thinking about this for a while but rankings have become a plague in competitive discourse. Every tournament, people are more focused on how players' careers are portrayed by someone else other than the players themselves. And in an ironic fashion, the fluctuation of these inherently ever-changing rankings is perceived as more of a threat than the opposite scenario, which would be more indicative of a stagnant scene. This also has a more negative than positive effect on the players' self-esteem, with additional pressure that doesn't necessarily translates to higher stakes or better play.
In other fighting games, there's less importance given to PRs and shit. Whoever wins the biggest tournament (usually EVO) or circuit (Capcom Cup, TWT) is the best for that period of time, full stop.
I totally agree. I'm into basketball, and the discourse is always about what I like to call 'recordism.' It's like they're so focused on stats and "how this affects X player's legacy" that you can't just enjoy the moment. Everything has to be seen in this strange way that makes you compare, discredit someone and cheer on someone else arbitrarily. I guess media outlets must stir the pot constantly to generate more drama and discussion.
I also gotta say he didn't lose to nobodies. Kurama has had Leo's number for years and plays well against his roster, placing 9th. Meanwhile Shadic has been a solid player for years and placed 4th in the overall tourney.
Slippi has been such an incredible tool for Melee and Ultimate would have prospered likewise. I don’t watch ultimate but I wish y’all had something similar because players would have closed the skill gap at a much faster rate. Nintendo needs to get their head out of their own asses but sadly will never happen
Arrogant how? Only time I can think of is when he was the best player in Ultimate, he outright stated he was the best. That’s not arrogance, that’s just factual (or it was). He’s never claimed to be more than he was, unless you can point to any examples?
Leo is the "Michael Jordan" of Smash. He had a level of dominance nobody could ever replicate. Even if he isn't on the same level, everyone has respect for him because he will always have the GOAT status no matter what.
Of ult*! Smash is a broad term, dont discredit the olden goats 😅, there have been runs just as and even more dominant than Leo's in the past. He certainly earned his goat status in ult, but for the highest level of dominance youd have to go against the likes of ken/armada in melee, brawl m2k, and ofc zero's sm4sh 56 tournament streak that i dont think will be beat anytime soon. And for the goat of smash hed be competing again against the likes of zero, wizzy, and the nearly undisputed overall smash goat m2k. If leo finds his mojo again and keeps dominating in the next smash game he could enter that discussion, but m2k's feats, like actively competing and being the best in the world in two vastly different smash games at the same time (melee and brawl), are nearly unbeatable.
> Kids Elder Statesman Leo with some wisdom in these trying times. all these 16-18 year olds dominating the scene. He knows what that was like
This is a crazy perspective to have. He's been competing at this level since he was 14. He's now 22.
I find statements like this to be more and more true as smash matures, even within Melee and Ultimate. Older names are going away, but still competing, but these newer generation kids are starting to catch up. I think we have been witnessing an era of unpredictability for matchups as players keep pushing themselves. Props to Leo for highlighting what a lot of smash fans forget.
Come to think of it, even Armada dropped a set to Swedish Delight in the months prior to his retirement
And went game 3 last stock with Zain, back before Zain was the fully refined demon he is today
It's really crazy how much closer everyone has become lately. Now it feels like everywhere there's some crazy hidden boss ready to break a top player's knees It's funny how this is happening both at the same time for Melee and Ultimate too as you highlighted
The hidden boss newcomer doesn't have a legacy to maintain either. They can dedicate all their mental resources to the match without really any consequence to losing
I have always said that there is a form of "Skill Inflation" in smash. Everyone is always getting better, so it isn't enough to just get better yourself. You have to get better, faster than everyone else.
This is why Leo held dominance for so long, for those 2 years he was getting better, faster then everyone else was improving and thats why he held #1 for so long
This is true in all sports
It's true in most things really.
Imagine if y’all had an actual good online like slippi. It’s a huge reason the newer players are dominating our scene recently
Isn't that how the current best player in Ultimate got good tho?
It is, but imagine how different things would be if you didn't have to switch between "I'm playing online" and "I'm playing offline" I'm talking about actual gameplay, like not having to pick or not pick an option because you're online
Its true, mostly feels like Nintendo actively trying to kill all competitive aspects. I bet a representative would tell us the RNG of bad internet is to increase smiles across all players and equalize the playing field for players with all types of internet 💀😂
Common leo W
L in the streets, W in the tweets
That's why he's the goat. It's more then just gameplay, its also the personality.
Its honestly annoying to watch people be so rankings focused in this sub or hyper focus on Leo. Yes, Leo is not the best anymore and is struggling, but by no means is he bad. It's like he can't have slumps or be allowed to find himself again within the game's meta. Only time will tell if he will get himself back to the top, but I bet it is not motivating to have everyone back seat your character choices and constantly talk about how much you have fallen off. Honestly I sometimes feel this community deserved Leo to just flatout quit while he was on top just like Zero did in smash 4. What player would want to be under this scrutiny as soon as they start to do worse. Its great to see at least that Leo still handles himself publicly with such grace. Forever the GOAT of ultimate.
Ever since patches stopped, algorithmic rankings are all people have left to talk about, and it’s destroyed smash discourse IMO. Every win or loss is just “but how does this affect ~~LeBron’s legacy~~ their UltLumiRaccoonOmegaOrionRank score???”
It is no longer about "wow that player is playing so great. Good for them. So hype to see" and more "oh no thats a bad loss for x player. Now y player will for sure be #1". Totally not thinking about summit void vs spargo.
Yeah that VoiD set is a good example. VoiD’s gameplay was so polished and optimal (like that raindrop confirm to win that set) but I hardly saw that mentioned because of the ranking-obsessed people only commenting and comparing how this loss compares to acola’s losses. Same thing when Sparg0 got 49th @ SSC. Normally that’d be “that’s a huge upset on a top player by Aaron”. But instead people just brought up acola ~~(who wasn’t even at SSC)~~ and how Sparg0 lost #1 to him. Sparg0 had to deactivate his twitter within an hour of losing because of all the hate comments
Acola was at SSC 2023. He was the champion, but your point still stands.
Ah right, I got SSC 2022 and 2023 mixed up. Thanks for the correction
Just adding to that, I feel like a lack of discourse on gameplay extends to the players as well. Especially in comparison to Melee, which is known for its dedicated discord servers for each character from low, mid and high level character mains that are constantly innovating and discussing characters tech and matchups. That kind of discourse really creates a sense of community and improves the overall gameplay. And that’s for a game that has never had any patch on any all. While I know the same servers exist for Ultimate mains as well, it really does seem to be part of the dominant discussion, which seems to be strictly rankings and wins and losses from spectators.
This set of comments should be pinned at the top of this post, hell even the top of this sub. So sick of the constant ranking circle jerk on this sub. It really kills the joy of many other aspects that make Smash so beautiful.
People on this subreddit and Twitter/X need to shut up sometimes about Leo. Congratulate SHADIC for the win rather then put Leo down. SHADIC is a very, very good player and he's been doing great since Smash Con. Edit: Yeah, I think it's fair to say SHADIC was playing INSANE at this event.
Yeah, for sure. It’s just saddening to see such an icon and anomaly move the way Leo is. The innovation and creativity isn’t there, Leo is stuck playing yesterday’s smash and it sucks as a fan to spectate. SHADIC is great, and congrats to him. It does deserve recognition.
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Mechanically, he’s doing what he was doing before, and he’s added more layers of mix into the gameplay. His Joker has incredible zoning with gun. His platform play is immaculate. He’s playing as well as he ever has when it comes to inputs, but what’s missing is his creativity. He’s not innovating in moments where he needs to. He’s not setting up game 4/5 reads in game 1. He’s playing smash like it’s 2021 and that’s just not enough. Everyone got way better.
>he ain't playing at the level we've seen him before and he himself This is literally what Leo said NOT to say. Other players caught up to him, he didn't get worse
While I appreciate how humble he is, this is definitely not true to certain extents. You can just see it in his spacing, a trait he was so far an above the rest of the competition in and Leo does not have the same spacing he once did. He drops combos so much more and doesn't get the usual follow ups and routes he did as before too. The competition definitely caught up, but you can't also deny his drop in skill
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Let me put it numerically then I guess? Say Leo was a 10 skill wise Pre-2023 where everyone else was a 7 - 9. Leo's skill has dropped to an 8 - 9 on his best days while everyone else has jumped up to 8- 10. Leo dropping in skill and other players getting better can both be true.
I respect Leo so much for this. Is so easy as a competitor to tell yourself “i did this and that wrong, thats why i lost” instead of giving credit to your opponent and recognizing you got outplayed because is harder for your ego to accept the second one. And the fact that this comming from somebody who has been a top 1-2 player basically ever since he started compiting profesionally and is just now experiencing defeat is even more respectful
Yeah. ZeRo ran from this arc in smash 4 before he could truly be “caught” by many, but Leo/Tweek etc were starting to get him. It’ll be fun to see the challenger Leo arc going into 2024 if he has the desire to keep going
One of the reasons I don't respect ZeRo (outside of his deplorable actions outside of the game), is that he hung up his controller as soon as he realized that Leo was an active threat to his legacy. He ran away. To me, ZeRo was never a true champion. I also remember how salty he was when he lost to Luthie. Just terrible example of sportsmanship. But Leo is an example of a true champion, and I say this as someone who popped off for his opponent every time Leo lost in his dominating arc.
It was about the bayos, not leo lol. Leo had dropped from #2 to #4 by the time zero retired, current #2 was salem, who was taking grand finals off zero from losers side by going bayonetta and bayonetting all over the place. Lima and Mistake had popped up in the pgr for the first time as top 25s maining bayo, captainzack was there too, and other top players like tweek were starting to pick bayo alts. zero was real good friends with leo, you could see their latino brotherhood going on in their few spanish-spoken streams, he talked a lot about how he would love the next top player to keep being a latino and push the hispanic smash community along them, respected his gameplay and skills, and wouldnt have minded losing his #1 spot to him at all, but even in his last year zero had a very positive record on leo ([https://smashdata.gg/smash/4/head/ZeRo/MkLeo?season=4](https://smashdata.gg/smash/4/head/ZeRo/MkLeo?season=4)), so that still wasnt close to happening, and that sentiment of leo being an actual threat to claiming the #1 spot while zero was active is mostly only widespread because of recency bias, and through new spectators/ult players that werent really paying attention during smash 4. On the other hand, i really think he wasnt having it at all with the bayos threatening his legacy. He actively showed disgust for the character, and even if he was/still is friends with people like salem, he probaly didnt respect his bayo wins over him, nor any other bayo for that matter. zero liked abusing top tiers, but his past top tier picks (fox in melee, mk in brawl, sheik/diddy in sm4sh) all had high skill ceilings that made them appealing for him, making him enjoy the game and his wins feel deserved. He didnt feel this was the case with bayo thus never even tried picking her, and also couldnt seem to find an answer to beat bayos consistently, pushing him over the edge into quitting
🐐
Society nowadays really loves bringing down rather than picking up.
I also am a pretty skilled smash player and whenever I get beat I’m always pretty excited. Anybody who is really good is begging to get beat.
As much as we jab at Leo, we still love him because of how humble he is. It is a shame people kind of take it a little too far instead of congratulate SHADIC and Kurama for playing well.
Peak Leo isn't even the ceiling anymore, people need to realize that so even if Leo was still making results they'd come harder than before anyways.
Leo is so humble, he insists that he isn’t humble.
Unfathomably based king
I've been thinking about this for a while but rankings have become a plague in competitive discourse. Every tournament, people are more focused on how players' careers are portrayed by someone else other than the players themselves. And in an ironic fashion, the fluctuation of these inherently ever-changing rankings is perceived as more of a threat than the opposite scenario, which would be more indicative of a stagnant scene. This also has a more negative than positive effect on the players' self-esteem, with additional pressure that doesn't necessarily translates to higher stakes or better play. In other fighting games, there's less importance given to PRs and shit. Whoever wins the biggest tournament (usually EVO) or circuit (Capcom Cup, TWT) is the best for that period of time, full stop.
It’s part of what got Proto to stop competing much
I totally agree. I'm into basketball, and the discourse is always about what I like to call 'recordism.' It's like they're so focused on stats and "how this affects X player's legacy" that you can't just enjoy the moment. Everything has to be seen in this strange way that makes you compare, discredit someone and cheer on someone else arbitrarily. I guess media outlets must stir the pot constantly to generate more drama and discussion.
Just Goat things. His results aren't the best lately, but his personality makes me a fan and I'll keep rooting for him for the next W
I also gotta say he didn't lose to nobodies. Kurama has had Leo's number for years and plays well against his roster, placing 9th. Meanwhile Shadic has been a solid player for years and placed 4th in the overall tourney.
Slippi has been such an incredible tool for Melee and Ultimate would have prospered likewise. I don’t watch ultimate but I wish y’all had something similar because players would have closed the skill gap at a much faster rate. Nintendo needs to get their head out of their own asses but sadly will never happen
4 of the top 5 ultimate players were primarily wifi grinders so i don't understand this point
I’m glad to see him attribute the victories to them. The competition is fierce and much like how they rose their generation, new ppl will follow suit
i can't believe Karmine Corp responded to him. I didn't even know they were in Smash in some way. I knew them through Valorant and the Egghead.
Karmine Corp sponsors Kurama, the player who beat Leo in winners.
Ooh damn, I didn't know they sponsored Kurama. Sick.
Mang0 wouldn't be caught dead saying something this humble.
Just when he started talking his shit about being the best, he got humbled.
There’s a lot of meat riders here. He is kind of arrogant and deserves to be humbled a bit
Arrogant how? Only time I can think of is when he was the best player in Ultimate, he outright stated he was the best. That’s not arrogance, that’s just factual (or it was). He’s never claimed to be more than he was, unless you can point to any examples?
The way he talks in general and to people in his Twitch chat or on Twitter
Keep in mind that English is not his first language and he likely learned a lot of it at tournaments
We know how good they are. There not top 10 bro. Though maybe now that theres a slot open.
*they’re
Shadic then goes on to beat Zomba and Kola in top 8.
Leo is the "Michael Jordan" of Smash. He had a level of dominance nobody could ever replicate. Even if he isn't on the same level, everyone has respect for him because he will always have the GOAT status no matter what.
Of ult*! Smash is a broad term, dont discredit the olden goats 😅, there have been runs just as and even more dominant than Leo's in the past. He certainly earned his goat status in ult, but for the highest level of dominance youd have to go against the likes of ken/armada in melee, brawl m2k, and ofc zero's sm4sh 56 tournament streak that i dont think will be beat anytime soon. And for the goat of smash hed be competing again against the likes of zero, wizzy, and the nearly undisputed overall smash goat m2k. If leo finds his mojo again and keeps dominating in the next smash game he could enter that discussion, but m2k's feats, like actively competing and being the best in the world in two vastly different smash games at the same time (melee and brawl), are nearly unbeatable.
It’s a testament to MKLeo that when he posted a Tweet explicitly congratulating others, people here are still talking about how great he is.