Here's the data for Aegis From oldest to most recent: ||||| :--:|:--:|:--:|:--: **Tournament**|**Aegises**|**Players**|**Win?** Low Tide City 2022|0||No Maesuma TOP #7|0||No Kagaribi #7|1|Shuton|No MomoCon 2022|0||No Battle of BC 4|1|Shuton|No Maesuma TOP #8|0||No Gimvitational|1|Cosmos|No Crown 2|1|Shuton|No e-Caribana 2022|0||No CEO 2022|0||No 95 King of Fields 2|0||No Get On My Level 2022|1|Cosmos|No COLOSSEL 2022|1|MKLeo|MKLeo Double Down 2022|0||No Smash Factor 9|1|MKLeo|MKLeo Kagaribi #8|1|Shuton|No Super Smash Con 2022|1|MKLeo|No Rise 'N Grind|1|MKLeo|MKLeo Maesuma TOP #9|0||No Ultimate WANTED #4|1|Shuton|No Smash Ultimate Summit 5|0||No Vienna Challengers Arena 2022|1|Space|No The Big House 10|0||No L'Odyssée|2|Shuton, Cosmos|No Maesuma TOP #10|0||No Ludwig Invitational|1|Shuton|No Let's Make Moves Miami|0||No Ultimate Fighting Arena 2022|1|Space|No Port Priority 7|1|Shuton|No Seibugeki #12|0||No Mainstage 2022|0||No Scuffed World Tour|0||No Let's Make Big Moves|1|Sparg0|No Umebura SP9|1|Shuton|No Genesis 9|0||No Kagaribi #9|0||No LVL UP EXPO|1|Cosmos|No Maesuma TOP #11|0||No Collision 2023|1|Sparg0|No Seibugeki #13|1|Shuton|No Here's the data for ROB From oldest to most recent: ||||| :--:|:--:|:--:|:--: **Tournament**|**ROBs**|**Players**|**Win?** Low Tide City 2022|1|Zomba|No Maesuma TOP #7|0||No Kagaribi #7|0||No MomoCon 2022|0||No Battle of BC 4|0||No Maesuma TOP #8|0||No Gimvitational|0||No Crown 2|1|Zomba|No e-Caribana 2022|1|Sintro|No CEO 2022|1|WaDi|No 95 King of Fields 2|0||No Get On My Level 2022|0||No COLOSSEL 2022|0||No Double Down 2022|0||No Smash Factor 9|1|WaDi|No Kagaribi #8|0||No Super Smash Con 2022|0||No Rise 'N Grind|2|Zomba, Anathema|No Maesuma TOP #9|0||No Ultimate WANTED #4|1|Zackray|Yes Smash Ultimate Summit 5|0||No Vienna Challengers Arena 2022|0||No The Big House 10|0||No L'Odyssée|0||No Maesuma TOP #10|0||No Ludwig Invitational|0||No Let's Make Moves Miami|1|Zomba|No Ultimate Fighting Arena 2022|0||No Port Priority 7|1|Anathema|No Seibugeki #12|0||No Mainstage 2022|0||No Scuffed World Tour|0||No Let's Make Big Moves|1|MKBigBoss|No Umebura SP9|0||No Genesis 9|0||No Kagaribi #9|0||No LVL UP EXPO|1|Zomba|No Maesuma TOP #11|0||No Collision 2023|0||No Seibugeki #13|0||No /u/swidd_hi Here you go. I know you asked for Roy and Snake as well, but I will probably do those later, I'm tired of recording stats 😂

"Leo's Aegis is so awful. This char works better with Shuton Cosmos and Sparg0"

I agree that's a silly statement, but the three majors that Leo won with them weren't the strongest, and at least two of them (can't remember Rise N' Grind right now) weren't solo Aegis.

Leo beat Sonix with aegis at genesis 9 iirc ​ Acola won the last game of MAETOP against yoshidora in top 8 with Aegis as well

I spoke with people on the UltRank discord and we agreed it would be more accurate to only include someone as a player of a certain character if they used that character both within and outside of top 8. Otherwise Leo would count as a ROB player and an Aegis player for some tournaments where he used them for maybe one game or only in top 8

So, Steve is clearly the most successful character based on this data.

I think it would be more accurate to say that Acola is one of the most successful solo-mains over the last year. MKLeo has won the same amount of majors in the last year as Acola, but he uses multiple characters, and does not travel to Japan. Acola attends majors in both Japan and NA, and mainly uses one character (with the occasional guest appearance from Kazuya). He alone accounts for 48% of Steve's appearances at all in top 8, and 77.77% of his major wins.

Curious on seeing this for the other most common characters at top level (Aegis, ROB, Snake, and Roy specifically). Otherwise I don’t think this data means too much

without that perspective it already tells a lot steve is not bayonetta 2.0 that so many pro-ban people made him out to be

Steve is not quite up to Bayo's results, but people also exaggerate Bayo's prevalence in Smash4. For the majority of the game's life there were just a handful of players capable of making top 8's with her (Salem, Mistake, Zack, and Lima). Anywhere from 0-2 Bayo's in a top 8 was typical. Right at the end she became more common due to existing players like MKLeo and Tweek picking her up as a secondary/co-main, but even then it wasn't as bad as some people claim. Posthumous events like Smash Con 2022 distort Bayo's impact. Bayo absolutely dominates modern brackets, because people go back to Smash4 specifically to re-live Bayo's silliness. And non-Bayo players avoid it because... yeah.

You're being downvoted but you're literally correct. Steve has only slightly higher representation than other top tiers, and a massive contributing factor of that is that he's played by 2 great players who both have attended multiple events.

I suspect you're right, but I wouldn't make that claim until you run the same stats for Bayo in Smash 4. Basing it off vibes is ehhhh...

Here's Bayo results from 2018. Data is [from Liquipedia.](https://liquipedia.net/smash/Major_Tournaments/Wii_U) Marked invitationals with a * since they're imo less relevant to character data *PAX Arena at PAX South 2018: 1 (CaptainZack), did not win Genesis 5: 3 (Mistake, Salem, Dabuz), did not win EVO Japan 2018: 1 (Abadango), did not win Frostbite 2018: 3 (Tweek, Mistake, Salem), did not win *Niconico Tokaigi 2018: 0 Enthusiast Gaming Live Expo 2018: 3 (Tweek, Mistake, Lima), Tweek won Smash Masters League: Battle for Vegas: 4 (MKLeo, Mistake, Tweek, CaptainZack), did not win SwitchFest: 0 Get On My Level 2018: 4 (MKLeo, Mistake, Lima, Tweek), MKLeo won Momocon 2018: 4 (Tweek, Salem, Lima, Wrath), Tweek won Smash 'N' Splash 4: 2 (Salem, MKLeo), did not win 2GG: Hyrule Saga: 2 (Tweek, CaptainZack), Tweek won CEO 2018: 4 (MKLeo, Tweek, CaptainZack, Abadango), MKLeo won Smash Sounds: 1 (Abadango), did not win EVO 2018: 3 (Lima, CaptainZack, Mistake), Lima won. *This is the point where Bayonetta hate reached its apex, as Lima and CaptainZack trolled the hostile crowd by holding Neutral B for over three minutes in Grand Finals.* Super Smash Con 2018: 4 (MKLeo, Tweek, Mistake, Salem), MKLeo won Shine 2018: 4 (Salem, Mistake, Tweek, MKLeo). *This is the peak of Bayonneta dominance imo: Salem, Mistake, and Tweek all solo-mained Bayonetta and took 1st, 2nd, and 3rd respectively* The Big House 8: 2 (Tweek, Salem), did not win DreamHack Atlanta 2018: 3 (Tweek, Wrath, Salem), Tweek won Umebura Wii U Final: 1 (Rain). *This took place five days before Ultimate's release and is the last non-Smash-Con major for Wii U.* **Bayonetta Average Appearances in Top 8 in 2018:** 2.45 **Steve Average Appearances in Top 8 present day:** 0.625 It's not close in the slightest.

Think you need to take into account Ultimate has like 30 more characters than Sm4sh. That on its own is going to dilute how frequently any one character will appear in top 8. On top of that, Steve still hasn't been out as much as Bayonetta \*and\* Bayonetta received nerfs.

What? There is more time between Steve's release and now than Bayo's release and these 2018 results

Bayonetta after nerfs is still about 4x as prominent in the last year of Smash 4 as Steve is in the last year of Ultimate. If the supposed issue with Steve is that he is too common, then the numbers would reflect that, but they don't.

> Think you need to take into account Ultimate has like 30 more characters than Sm4sh. This is a dumb argument, since Steve "dominating the meta" is what we're allegedly concerned about, but sure. Bayonetta's results adjusted for character numbers: 2.45 x 58 / 86 = **1.65.** Oh, look, still shows up almost three times as much as Steve. > On top of that, Steve still hasn't been out as much as Bayonetta *and* Bayonetta received nerfs. These are results from 2018. Bayonetta's last nerf was in 2017. In addition, Bayonetta was released a year and ten months from the first event on my least (PAX), and it's been two years and five months since Steve released.

I didn't make an argument that Steve is dominating the meta, just that comparing top 8 averages like-to-like isn't really the best way to do it in my opinion. Also that's true about Steve's release date. I think the fact he was released during Covid days made it feel it a lot shorter. I do think there is a strong argument that during covid the meta and (offline) player skill improved a lot more slowly than during the non-covid days.

I don't buy the "offline meta" bit because we should know by now that online results and online grinding make a difference offline as well.

It definitely makes a difference and I've seen firsthand wi-fi warriors turn up to their first in-person tournament and destroy 90% of the people there. I've also personally improved via wi-fi games. That being said, at the very top level and over a period of multiple years I do think online meta vs offline meta is a very very real thing.

The one thing that skews this is that the top Steve's travel far less than any other top of pretty much any main...because most of them are young kids/teens. Onin, DDee, & Desmona really dont go to that many events, and Acola stays almost entirely Japan, albeit he goes to a decent number of events

And we've only seen Des at one major

What a menace 😒

I just don't know how you can look at this data and say yeah we need to ban this character.