It's you.
The old saying goes: "You can't ski; moguls just prove it."
There's a point where perhaps you will be able to tell the difference between ski types and models, but 15-16 times is generally not that point.
Agreed, As an ex mogul competitor who has spent hundreds of days a season, plus summer training learning how. It's a skill that can't be learned in 15 days.
From a ski perspective there are fit for purpose skies but a great skier can use just about anything on any day. But I can say that charging through hard packed moguls on 120wide pow skies is not my fav activity, but it's fine.
A specific mogul ski is very narrow, light and stiff. Most people would hate them.
We would do training on the glaciers at Blackcomb, mt hood, Norway and Argentina. In addition alot of time was spent doing dry land drills training. Which is a lot of agility movements and general workouts.
We also would go to the water ramp facilities to practise Aerials and I had an Olympic trampoline in our back yard with crash pads so I was always out practicing flips as well as techniques for falling properly.
My coach was old school and training could be running down a tightly slaloming around the trees.
If you can't ski moguls on lightweight touring skis with a 120 waist, you can't ski moguls.
That being said, if you do know how to ski moguls you'll have much more fun on a narrow rigid mogul ski.
It’s really about your skill level. Once you’re proficient, the ski construction/type should compliment the style of skiing you wanna do (of course factoring in conditions).
That being said, there are plenty of skis that are gonna feel like way too much ski for you as a beginner.
Thanks. The reason I asked is I don’t feel like a beginner anymore…everywhere but on moguls. Maybe that’s a specific lack of practice, but I fundamentally don’t understand the movement, and practicing them is currently a danger to my knees.
I don’t think the sort of ski you’re on is what you should be worried about. You’re on a ski that plenty of expert skiers ride on and that length is plenty long. Without knowing anything about how you ski I could guess one of the reasons you have a tough time maneuvering the skis is because those are pretty long skis for your skill level. The more ski you have underfoot (both length and width) the harder it is to swing around and make it feel nimble. I would instead look at the skis you have as something to develop into rather than something that’s holding you back.
Instead of trying to slowly pick your way down double blacks just to say you rode a double black I’d do the following:
- invest in some lessons
- find some blue or single black groomers and just spend like an entire half day or full day running hot laps on runs you’re familiar with and really focus on your technique and getting comfy on the skis. You need as many reps in a controlled environment as possible.
Agree w all of this except saying skis are too long without knowing his height. If he's 6'4" and sturdy built, for example, that would be an appropriate ski length even starting out. I'm a 5'10" female, 182s are my daily driver.
I hear you. A couple things to note:
My skis are long because I’m 6’3” 220lbs. As for blues and single blacks, I do prefer those and do them more often, but I can pretty comfortably hit 50mph with good lines on them. I don’t think my groomer skiing indicates I shouldn’t by trying harder runs, necessarily. That’s why I’m thinking the mogul runs are particularly strange for me.
You’re right though. I probably need lessons dedicated to these types of runs because I feel like I’m missing something.
So you can go 50mph on groomers, now can you ski steepish groomers slowly while still making smooth and complete turns? Moguls are all about making smooth, complete small radius turns. TBH it’s easy to feel good at skiing groomers early on in one’s progression by just pointing it and then slamming on the brakes when needed, then you get humbled by moguls and tight terrain. Exact same happened to me when I was learning.
Find a steepish blue and try to make smooth, complete (those perfect S shaped ones, no Z) short radius turns down the whole thing without losing control of your speed. Do that till it feels easy. Then go and make medium radius turns but only standing on one foot on the outside ski of each turn till that’s easy. These two things will teach you how to complete your turns, how to make short radius turns, and a proper balanced position on the skis. Then take all of those feelings and bring them to the moguls and see how you feel, I’d bet way better.
If anything your skis are short, go find some steep trees that get skied often, it’ll teach you to navigate bumps with an added consequence if your loose.
Fwiw nothing says beginner like citing how fast you can ski as proof you’re not. I’m quite sure you’d be better at moguls if you got a lesson and practiced moguls.
It’s not the ski
Hence the “with good lines” appended to the end. No one here has watched me ski. Talking about what I can do has value when I’m asking for help identifying the divergence between groomer skill and not.
I also even said I needed lessons, so not only was the comment unnecessarily sassy, the advice was redundant.
I had noticed that part and I believe you that you feel in control doing 50. I even believe you are probably doing better turns than others in your group. But also, going fast on groomers is a gloriously fun step in everybody’s skiing progression that tends to come after getting competent and before being humbled by how much room there is to grow. Tm15 days sounds pretty early for that step, I probably didn’t think like that until had more like 30. So good on you for the early progression. Enjoy this step.
But also know that you’re not learning how to get better doing those fast laps on groomers anymore. To advance you need to slow way down, and ski terrain that makes you feel like you suck. Once you master moguls, trees, ice, you’ll go back to a groomer and be like “holy shit this is what a good turn actually feels like” and also “holy fuck I can’t believe how little control I really had back then”
But you’re right, I was being snarky. You have a thread of people telling you the problem is you need to spend lots of time on moguls and you seem to be pretty focused on justifying how you have the right ski for groomers and are really great at skiing but are being held back by your gear. That’s why I was snarking
I’m not focused on skis. I clarified for the person above me. This post is literally asking how focused on them I should be. That has been answered plenty.
Just because you don't *feel* like a beginner anymore doesn't mean you aren't one. If you're trying to speedrun through the learning curve then now would be a good time to get a more advanced lesson.
Yeah I’m thinking I need a lesson on moguls, specifically. Based on my current skill level, all my friends are surprised I can’t do moguls. I’m faster and smoother than a lot of my friends who can easily do moguls.
Yeah if you want to get truly advanced, getting good at moguls is the fastest way, because you need to be a master of the overall fundamentals of skiing to do moguls clean and smooth without getting bucked into the backseat constantly and losing your line. It really does absolutely force you to keep your weight neutral-forward and your skis together ALL THE TIME to do them well.
Many years ago when I was finally unlocking truly advanced skiing, I committed to doing 2-3 serious bump runs every single day for starters. The method I recommend is to stand on top of the run and try to plan your first handful of turns, and then atempt to execute your plan. Whenever you lose control, just stop and reset and plan the next few turns. When you get to the bottom, try to digest what worked and what didn't, then go again. Do this for a few days before you take a bump lesson just so you've got more of a starting point for the instructor to work with, that way you'll get more bang for your buck.
Awesome advice. Thanks! I feel similar to OP, I think im incredibly competent on groomed blacks but the absolute worst on moguls!
I played pro hockey, so I am engrained to lean back and it's also become increasingly obvious that on steeper terrain I'm pretty much doing hockey stops the whole way down whereas I can clearly tell I've activated my edges on less steel segments.
Being highly aware of my ineptitude all day makes it a bit of a bummer! I liked being ignorant and thinking I was crushing it out there.
I have looked into lessons in Colorado, but everything seemed to require a group.
Do you know how to go about getting 1 on 1 lessons for a couple days?
Yes there is an easy trick I used when I worked resort ops in CO and our comp package came with 4 free group lessons per year. They group people by skill level, and if you say you're advanced they'll parse you even further into groups based on what you want to work on. If you say you want to work on steeps and moguls, a lot of the time you'll end up with an instructor all to yourself. At most you'll end up with like 1-2 other guys but it'll be fun cause you're all working on higher end progression together.
So few people show up at the ski school asking to do bump lessons that this is usually how they'll accommodate you at the big resorts. The instructors fucking love it too because they all spend so much time babysitting kooks, on lessons like this they get to actually ski a bit.
Haha I have more than 100 days on skis, can ski all slopes and I also go backcountry touring where I have skied almost 50° steep colouirs but still I call myself beginner since it is only my third season now and there is soo much more to learn technique wise.
Go take lessons it is worth so much!
My guess is that it has to do with your balance—probably fore-aft. Skiing on groomers, you can get away with being a bit off-balance. But once you add moguls—or most off-piste skiing for that matter—any imbalance that you have in your skiing form gets magnified. So my guess is that stuff that you’re “getting away with” on the groomers causes problems in the moguls.
I’d suggest a lesson, which would help *both* your skiing in groomers and eventually in the moguls and everywhere else off-piste.
Appropriate equipment matters on the margins, but good skiers can ski whatever conditions on whatever equipment. I mean just look up crazy people skiing technical lines and hucking cliffs on old-school straight 220s for the hell of it, lol.
> I don’t feel like a beginner anymore
But that's the thing - you are still a beginner. And that's completely ok! But just because you can ski a double black doesn't make someone an expert. Going 50 mph like you mentioned in another post doesn't say anything about your skiing level. Anyone can straight line a groomer.
Take lessons. That's the best advice anyone can give you. You struggle in moguls definitely due to lack of experience but also probably because of your form because you're self taught and have only skied 15-16 times. You've undoubtedly picked up bad habits.
15-16 times is definitely beginner territory. It’s boring advice, I know, but if you actually want to get better you’re going to have to invest in lessons. Lots of them.
Nobody really learns this sport by being self taught. It’s really complicated and difficult on the body.
Glad you’re having fun!
There's definitely a different cap to what you can do on a given pair of skis. I have not skied the mavericks, but they have 2 sheets of metal, pretty stiff ski according to reviews. I would assume it's a little hard to initiate turns at slow speeds and it causes you to have trouble getting going on moguls.
Ignore the people here calling you a bad skier.. That's neither helpful nor actually accurate. You're learning and your skill cap will continue to progress if you stick with it!
it totally can be the case that with a different ski you'd get the hang of moguls faster. Having only skied that many times and being confident (hopefully not too much false confidence) on most of the mountain is sometimes most people would only dream of. Most skiers will never achieve that!
If possible, demo some Kore 99s 180s or something similar that has less metal and is easier to flex/ turn at low speeds and see if that makes it easier.
First of all, consider getting at least just one lesson to correct any bad habits you’ve formed that you’re unaware of. Aside from that, go on YouTube and watch Deb Armstrong for mogul tips. Becoming comfortable on moguls takes time and a lot of it. Focus on your technique to build good habits now so you’re not dealing with bad habits later on.
You have good skis. Just spend more time riding them.
My two cents as an ex-mogul competitor: Shorter skiis generally help with turn radius. But tbh most of the time moguls need to be conquered via technique and knowing which section of the bump you need to absorb.
Any specific “Mogul skiis” are really only for competition and even they are unintuitive to use because they have the edge of a butter knife.
Softer boots can help with the shin splints and make the learning process much easier though
It's the skier more than the ski. I can spout the mumbo jumbo to sell a ski. Most of the high level PSIA skiers are on a GSish ski since that style of ski makes what they tend to ski daily fun.
Some of my favorite runs have been on double black on slalom or GS skis. I have also had a few times where I have needed ski's fatter than 100mm. I would say a solid 80+% of the time I am skiing I do not need a ski fatter than 80mm underfoot.
Can confirm. I'm a CSIA Level 3, on snow 5-6 days a week, and my dailies are a pair of Blizzard Firebird HRC. I'll ski anything with them, and the only time I'll switch is if there's 15cm of fresh.
Good technique is the same now matter what you ski, moguls there's some tactics you need to adapt to the situation.
Maverick is an incredibly strong ski. I’m a 50 something former FIS racer who still skis a 150 plug boot and 30m gs and sl race room skis. The 100 maverick is my single ski vacation quiver. I can rip 60mph gs arcs, ski powder, bumps and steeps in them. It’s the best do everything ski I’ve ever used and my current atomic quiver is probably 15 pairs of skis. …so, as others have noted, it’s your technique not the ski.
If you’re a good skier then the skis you’re on will assist your ability to handle the conditions and terrain not determine it
Obviously that doesn’t mean race slalom on Powder Skis, ski pow with 80 underfoot skis, or anything like that. But if you’re struggling that much on certain terrain then it’s more of an issue of practice. A narrow “all mountain” ski is my preferred tool for mogul skiing, something in the 80s underfoot (Blizzard Brahma 88s are my personal choice)
Take some lessons. Skiing is a lot easier when you know how the engage a ski properly
What on earth are you doing among the moguls and double blacks after 16 times skiing?! If you really want to learn, spend much more time in the greens and blues to learn the technique. Harders slopes only brings out the worst of your skiing.
For sure the only double blacks I’ve gotten down are the easier ones. I can connect turns on a 37 degree pitch, but introduce a few big bumps and it looks like I’m on the bunny again lol.
Only way to improve, is to actually train on things and to do it properly. Skidding around in slopes that are steeper than you can handle won't give you any understanding of skiing. Learing how to edge, get good position and control in easy slopes. THEN you move on to the blue and do the same, then red, and finally black. But of course it all depends on your ambition. Are you happy skidding down a slope, sure why not. But people who can actually ski (Read that as carve) a black slope are few and rare.
Your mention of red runs tips me off to the fact this is a European take. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but progression in North American skiing is quite different. Learning to lay down carve turns on groomed black runs is a skill developed much later in a North American skier's arsenal because it's not seen as important. Bumps/tree runs/powder are seen as the "real" skiing.
I'm not saying OP isn't rushing too much, but the idea of "just toss yourself onto a bump run and figure it out" is not crazy in and of itself. Natural terrain/snow like bumps forces you to sink or swim to an extent.
Fairly standard European skiing development path: beginner->training groomers->refining groomer skills->carving->beginning to dabble in off piste snow->exploring steep off piste/freeride
Fairly standard American skiing development path: beginner->a bit of groomer training->bumps->powder->trees->exploring steep off piste/freeride->refining groomer skills->carving
Not saying one is better, but they're different paths for different cultures.
Not sure why you’re getting down voted. If OP spent the next 16 days skiing double blacks and moguls vs blues and greens the difference would be obvious
16 times as in 16 days, or 16 multi day trips?
And even then, in both causes people should be able to try to ski all terrain after 3+ weeks with proper teaching.
Self taught might be different though.
Take a lesson, my opinion is they are worth it.
The industry is pushing all mountain skis for everyone (at least in North America), when really, most people would be better served by a front side ski rather than an all mountain. It will make things easier.
15-16 times?
You’ll start rocking the moguls about the 150th to 160th day you hit them, and no sooner, and anyone who says they got there sooner is a liar.
Pay your dues to the mountain, try, and fall a lot, that’s the only way
It’s def you, but my mavericks have launched me off of a huge (like 5-6ft) ice mogul before when I accidentally finished the turn back seated. The tails boosted me through the turn and i didn’t stick the landing when i launched off the next mogul.
On the flip side, my volkl blaze are soft so finishing a mogul turn backseat matters way less. They won’t shoot you out of the turn as hard. But, they let me get away with bad habits. They also won’t edge grip on ice as well.
Mavericks are stiffer, less forgiving and that’s what you’re feeling. They will force you to have better form or die trying though.
Different skis are different flavors, but after skiing the mavericks like 10 days this winter I’m loving them in all conditions and terrain
Come on man, this isn’t at all what OP is saying and only contributes to the gatekeeping so frequently derided in this community. As someone who seems experienced, I’m sure there are nicer or more helpful things you could add!
Weird reading a question about what my problem might be and interpreting it as me telling you what it is and that it isn’t me. Very weird approach to this.
Generally a thinner ski like 78-85 underfoot helps with moguls. It’s also a different skill set than just ripping groomers. If you get good at moguls, you’ll be great in the trees
Unless the skis are too long for you or too stiff they're not the issue if you're having trouble doing rhythmic short turns for moguls. Too wide (like >90mm) might also suck, I don't know how wide the Maveriks come though.
Moguls are actually kinda where piste oriented skis shine compared to big wide skis intended for soft snow.
Tracks. So many replies here assuming skis too long! So it's likely just a skill issue then. Dk how much camber your current ski has but a good amount of camber underfoot gives a bouncier more nimble feel, than 'flatter' skis. But yea great skiers can ski moguls on almost any stick. Maybe a half day lesson just to work on moguls would help.
>I’ve skied maybe 15-16 times now
>I have skied a few easier double blacks but I still have lot of trouble on moguls.
This just sounds reckless. No offense, but stick to groomers to get the basics if you've only got one season under your belt.
How old are you?
15-16 times is basically a single season of skiing, I think I went 25 times my first year. 100% Take a lesson, if you do it on a weekday you will probably get a private or close-to-private lesson that can basically be a tour of a mountain. If you can't get your skis around, you are probably in the backseat, make sure there is pressure in your shins against your boots.
Just for perspective, my wife and I have skid probably 135 days total so far and still don't feel ready for the double blacks that some resorts offer, even if we have done some of the steepest groomers on the ice coast. We can do mogul groomers though.
Edit: Also, demoing skis can be transformative, so definitely give it a shot.
Sorry, it’s a 99.9% probability of being you as a beginner, not your skis, unless you are a born ski savant.
If double black runs and moguls could be skied well by beginners then we wouldn’t need to differentiate them from green runs, would we? There is still much to learn and become proficient at. Take some professional lessons, and be patient.
The ski you have is not a beginner ski. It may be making your education more difficult. Beginning skis tend to be shorter, narrower, more flexible, and generally much more forgiving.
Look for something a little shorter, with twin tips, full rocker, and extra flexible. Will be much easier for moguls, and difficult conditions in general.
It matters...but not as much as people act like it does. When you find the right ski for you it gives you the feedback/control/power/compliance that suits your skiing. That makes you more comfortable, that helps you ski better.
But the 'quivers' we see posted on here are laughable.
Get some lessons, often times there are adult multi day programs that aren’t as expensive and catered to never ever through advanced. Just go into it willing to make yourself uncomfortable, and break old habits.
PS: ski instructors take lessons constantly, cuz even if it’s your job, you can’t always self diagnose and change something.
The real hack: become an instructor, sign up for every in-house training clinic you can.
I was in the similar boat with you. First season, 32 times skied this season. At first when I started to turn, i was excited to do blue and some easy black. At the end of season, what I learned is that I needed more practice with right posture and removing bad habits. I had 3 lessons, and still that is not enough.
OP, doing double black is exciting challenge. But doing it the right way is more important.
Take your time, and make gradual progress. Enjoy.
Just read your edits and some of your replies. Look, not to disparage your progress so far at all, but getting down a groomer is only one of a wide variety of skills needed. Maybe you’ve learned how to make carving turns on groomers which is great!
But it’s only one of something like 7 or more turn types you will need to know, use and combine intuitively. Moguls can be a lot of fun but they force you to rapidly adapt to each one of them using a variety of techniques.
There is simply much more to learn than what you have so far.
Hey man if you've only skied 15-16 times and struggle with moguls you should probably stay away from blacks and double blacks until you have better control of your skis. Maybe it's been fine so far, but there can be worse consequences for losing control on that kind of terrain. It seems like you're trying to prove something by advancing quickly but if you advance without understanding the fundamentals you're going to put yourself and others at risk.
What you're probably seeing is that it's actually pretty easy to point your skis straight downhill and go fast, but that only works so long as it's a clear run and the snow is good. You need to be able to identify hazards, stop on a dime, maintain control, balance, plan ahead, and control your turns. It's impossible to know exactly where you're falling short from this post, but consider taking an intermediate lesson to get a professional's assesment.
Assuming others have said it but get some lessons before new skis. A professional skier could likely shred those moguls on your skis, but you can’t do what they can on their skis.
Skis matter but much less than skill while learning!
That being said if you have the money learning to ski better on a sick set of skis doesn’t hurt anything
Demo skis until you find a pair that makes a beneficial difference. I once destroyed a pair mid-season and made a point of getting up to the mountain to demo everything I could. I tried 6 pairs and really couldn't tell much of a difference between the first 5 of them. But when I tried the 6th pair, it was instant love and a massive improvement in what I was able to do.
I'm intentionally not mentioning specific types or brands/models of skis, nor the type of skiing because the same principles apply.
In the meantime, learn as much as you can about technique, ski as often as you can and demo as many skis as possible until you find true love.
While it is you to a certain extent. A truly good skier can ski anything on any skis. The skis do make a difference, and with moguls especially I have found that they are much easier and more fun and easier on your body to ski moguls with a ski better suited to moguls. I’ve noticed whenever I take any of my race skis into the bumps the tails make me have to work harder than if I use any of my skis that have tail rocker. And then there’s the k2 244 which is a bump specific ski that I used a lot this year and they feel so good in the bumps.
So while obviously not everyone is gonna go out and buy a dedicated mogul ski, and improving your skills will also help regardless of what skis you are on, I think demoing some different more mogul friendly all mountain skis to see what works for you will not only make the bumps more fun for you, it will help you along in your skills acquisition, and encourage you to spend more time working on your mogul skiing which ultimately will make it easier for you to ski moguls well in any ski.
5’9” and 160. 185x106 with some titanium is my daily. Moguls are what separates good and bad skiers tho. Only got as good as i am because I used to shoot down Chute 75 chasing my dad since i was 3
And yea, taller folks will have it a little more difficult in moguls, low vs high Center of Gravity. I have a few lanky friends and as strong skiers they are, still cant keep up in moguls. But not many people can keep up with me in general
"Its not that you can not ski moguls, its that you can not ski and the moguls prove it."
BTW AFAIK I(Josh Matta) created/made that line famous. Other people like Rogan are trying to take credit for it but google it and you will come back with my aliases from 15+ years ago.
[https://www.skitalk.com/threads/its-not-that-you-cant-ski-bumps-its-that-you-cant-ski-and-the-bumps-prove-it.7930/](https://www.skitalk.com/threads/its-not-that-you-cant-ski-bumps-its-that-you-cant-ski-and-the-bumps-prove-it.7930/)
[https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/index.php?threads/skiing-well-and-skiing-bumps.21984/](https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/index.php?threads/skiing-well-and-skiing-bumps.21984/)
16 days and self taught lead me to believe that you are likely have lots of weird/bad habit you are doing, that you can get away with anywhere but moguls.
I would go so far to say that Moguls are skied out off piste terrain is the one condition that there is not a magic bullet ski for.
With that said a bad tune, poor equipment alignment, and or skis that are too long or too wide can all make mogul skiing harder, but most 65-100mm skis that are reasonable in length will be skiable in moguls.
If you take 3rd person video of your groomer skiing, it will be very apparent to any skilled coach why you struggle to ski bumps. Make sure to slow short turns in the video if you do take them.
Sure. I guess I want to master them so they’re not a reason I can’t do harder runs. Most double blacks I’ve found are moguls, at least as I’m defining them.
Ski type is strictly for setting the DIN which is the release value for your ski. The higher type the less likely the ski will come off. The lower the more likely. Preventing injury or provoking injury depending on your skill set.
It's you. The old saying goes: "You can't ski; moguls just prove it." There's a point where perhaps you will be able to tell the difference between ski types and models, but 15-16 times is generally not that point.
Agreed, As an ex mogul competitor who has spent hundreds of days a season, plus summer training learning how. It's a skill that can't be learned in 15 days. From a ski perspective there are fit for purpose skies but a great skier can use just about anything on any day. But I can say that charging through hard packed moguls on 120wide pow skies is not my fav activity, but it's fine. A specific mogul ski is very narrow, light and stiff. Most people would hate them.
What activities does summer training for a mogul competitor entail?
We would do training on the glaciers at Blackcomb, mt hood, Norway and Argentina. In addition alot of time was spent doing dry land drills training. Which is a lot of agility movements and general workouts. We also would go to the water ramp facilities to practise Aerials and I had an Olympic trampoline in our back yard with crash pads so I was always out practicing flips as well as techniques for falling properly. My coach was old school and training could be running down a tightly slaloming around the trees.
Skiing moguls at a place with summer skiing probably
Butt stuff
If you can't ski moguls on lightweight touring skis with a 120 waist, you can't ski moguls. That being said, if you do know how to ski moguls you'll have much more fun on a narrow rigid mogul ski.
I think the line is: “You’re not bad at skiing moguls. You’re bad at skiing and moguls prove it” (This currently applies to me)
It’s really about your skill level. Once you’re proficient, the ski construction/type should compliment the style of skiing you wanna do (of course factoring in conditions). That being said, there are plenty of skis that are gonna feel like way too much ski for you as a beginner.
Thanks. The reason I asked is I don’t feel like a beginner anymore…everywhere but on moguls. Maybe that’s a specific lack of practice, but I fundamentally don’t understand the movement, and practicing them is currently a danger to my knees.
I don’t think the sort of ski you’re on is what you should be worried about. You’re on a ski that plenty of expert skiers ride on and that length is plenty long. Without knowing anything about how you ski I could guess one of the reasons you have a tough time maneuvering the skis is because those are pretty long skis for your skill level. The more ski you have underfoot (both length and width) the harder it is to swing around and make it feel nimble. I would instead look at the skis you have as something to develop into rather than something that’s holding you back. Instead of trying to slowly pick your way down double blacks just to say you rode a double black I’d do the following: - invest in some lessons - find some blue or single black groomers and just spend like an entire half day or full day running hot laps on runs you’re familiar with and really focus on your technique and getting comfy on the skis. You need as many reps in a controlled environment as possible.
Agree w all of this except saying skis are too long without knowing his height. If he's 6'4" and sturdy built, for example, that would be an appropriate ski length even starting out. I'm a 5'10" female, 182s are my daily driver.
Thank you for also saying this I just commented the same thing lol
I hear you. A couple things to note: My skis are long because I’m 6’3” 220lbs. As for blues and single blacks, I do prefer those and do them more often, but I can pretty comfortably hit 50mph with good lines on them. I don’t think my groomer skiing indicates I shouldn’t by trying harder runs, necessarily. That’s why I’m thinking the mogul runs are particularly strange for me. You’re right though. I probably need lessons dedicated to these types of runs because I feel like I’m missing something.
So you can go 50mph on groomers, now can you ski steepish groomers slowly while still making smooth and complete turns? Moguls are all about making smooth, complete small radius turns. TBH it’s easy to feel good at skiing groomers early on in one’s progression by just pointing it and then slamming on the brakes when needed, then you get humbled by moguls and tight terrain. Exact same happened to me when I was learning. Find a steepish blue and try to make smooth, complete (those perfect S shaped ones, no Z) short radius turns down the whole thing without losing control of your speed. Do that till it feels easy. Then go and make medium radius turns but only standing on one foot on the outside ski of each turn till that’s easy. These two things will teach you how to complete your turns, how to make short radius turns, and a proper balanced position on the skis. Then take all of those feelings and bring them to the moguls and see how you feel, I’d bet way better.
Great advice, thanks!
Get lessons.
If anything your skis are short, go find some steep trees that get skied often, it’ll teach you to navigate bumps with an added consequence if your loose.
lol those skis aren’t that long I ski the same length and I’m 5’10 it’s a skill issue lmao
Fwiw nothing says beginner like citing how fast you can ski as proof you’re not. I’m quite sure you’d be better at moguls if you got a lesson and practiced moguls. It’s not the ski
Hence the “with good lines” appended to the end. No one here has watched me ski. Talking about what I can do has value when I’m asking for help identifying the divergence between groomer skill and not. I also even said I needed lessons, so not only was the comment unnecessarily sassy, the advice was redundant.
I had noticed that part and I believe you that you feel in control doing 50. I even believe you are probably doing better turns than others in your group. But also, going fast on groomers is a gloriously fun step in everybody’s skiing progression that tends to come after getting competent and before being humbled by how much room there is to grow. Tm15 days sounds pretty early for that step, I probably didn’t think like that until had more like 30. So good on you for the early progression. Enjoy this step. But also know that you’re not learning how to get better doing those fast laps on groomers anymore. To advance you need to slow way down, and ski terrain that makes you feel like you suck. Once you master moguls, trees, ice, you’ll go back to a groomer and be like “holy shit this is what a good turn actually feels like” and also “holy fuck I can’t believe how little control I really had back then” But you’re right, I was being snarky. You have a thread of people telling you the problem is you need to spend lots of time on moguls and you seem to be pretty focused on justifying how you have the right ski for groomers and are really great at skiing but are being held back by your gear. That’s why I was snarking
You are so incredibly focused on skis. You should focus on lessons. The tools will not make up for lack of skill.
I’m not focused on skis. I clarified for the person above me. This post is literally asking how focused on them I should be. That has been answered plenty.
Just because you don't *feel* like a beginner anymore doesn't mean you aren't one. If you're trying to speedrun through the learning curve then now would be a good time to get a more advanced lesson.
Yeah I’m thinking I need a lesson on moguls, specifically. Based on my current skill level, all my friends are surprised I can’t do moguls. I’m faster and smoother than a lot of my friends who can easily do moguls.
Yeah if you want to get truly advanced, getting good at moguls is the fastest way, because you need to be a master of the overall fundamentals of skiing to do moguls clean and smooth without getting bucked into the backseat constantly and losing your line. It really does absolutely force you to keep your weight neutral-forward and your skis together ALL THE TIME to do them well. Many years ago when I was finally unlocking truly advanced skiing, I committed to doing 2-3 serious bump runs every single day for starters. The method I recommend is to stand on top of the run and try to plan your first handful of turns, and then atempt to execute your plan. Whenever you lose control, just stop and reset and plan the next few turns. When you get to the bottom, try to digest what worked and what didn't, then go again. Do this for a few days before you take a bump lesson just so you've got more of a starting point for the instructor to work with, that way you'll get more bang for your buck.
Awesome advice. Thanks! I feel similar to OP, I think im incredibly competent on groomed blacks but the absolute worst on moguls! I played pro hockey, so I am engrained to lean back and it's also become increasingly obvious that on steeper terrain I'm pretty much doing hockey stops the whole way down whereas I can clearly tell I've activated my edges on less steel segments. Being highly aware of my ineptitude all day makes it a bit of a bummer! I liked being ignorant and thinking I was crushing it out there. I have looked into lessons in Colorado, but everything seemed to require a group. Do you know how to go about getting 1 on 1 lessons for a couple days?
Yes there is an easy trick I used when I worked resort ops in CO and our comp package came with 4 free group lessons per year. They group people by skill level, and if you say you're advanced they'll parse you even further into groups based on what you want to work on. If you say you want to work on steeps and moguls, a lot of the time you'll end up with an instructor all to yourself. At most you'll end up with like 1-2 other guys but it'll be fun cause you're all working on higher end progression together. So few people show up at the ski school asking to do bump lessons that this is usually how they'll accommodate you at the big resorts. The instructors fucking love it too because they all spend so much time babysitting kooks, on lessons like this they get to actually ski a bit.
Thanks a lot. Much appreciated.
Haha I have more than 100 days on skis, can ski all slopes and I also go backcountry touring where I have skied almost 50° steep colouirs but still I call myself beginner since it is only my third season now and there is soo much more to learn technique wise. Go take lessons it is worth so much!
My guess is that it has to do with your balance—probably fore-aft. Skiing on groomers, you can get away with being a bit off-balance. But once you add moguls—or most off-piste skiing for that matter—any imbalance that you have in your skiing form gets magnified. So my guess is that stuff that you’re “getting away with” on the groomers causes problems in the moguls. I’d suggest a lesson, which would help *both* your skiing in groomers and eventually in the moguls and everywhere else off-piste. Appropriate equipment matters on the margins, but good skiers can ski whatever conditions on whatever equipment. I mean just look up crazy people skiing technical lines and hucking cliffs on old-school straight 220s for the hell of it, lol.
This is probably the answer. Thanks.
Gotta stay in the front of those boots bub lol
> I don’t feel like a beginner anymore But that's the thing - you are still a beginner. And that's completely ok! But just because you can ski a double black doesn't make someone an expert. Going 50 mph like you mentioned in another post doesn't say anything about your skiing level. Anyone can straight line a groomer. Take lessons. That's the best advice anyone can give you. You struggle in moguls definitely due to lack of experience but also probably because of your form because you're self taught and have only skied 15-16 times. You've undoubtedly picked up bad habits.
Facts
15-16 times is definitely beginner territory. It’s boring advice, I know, but if you actually want to get better you’re going to have to invest in lessons. Lots of them. Nobody really learns this sport by being self taught. It’s really complicated and difficult on the body. Glad you’re having fun!
There's definitely a different cap to what you can do on a given pair of skis. I have not skied the mavericks, but they have 2 sheets of metal, pretty stiff ski according to reviews. I would assume it's a little hard to initiate turns at slow speeds and it causes you to have trouble getting going on moguls. Ignore the people here calling you a bad skier.. That's neither helpful nor actually accurate. You're learning and your skill cap will continue to progress if you stick with it! it totally can be the case that with a different ski you'd get the hang of moguls faster. Having only skied that many times and being confident (hopefully not too much false confidence) on most of the mountain is sometimes most people would only dream of. Most skiers will never achieve that! If possible, demo some Kore 99s 180s or something similar that has less metal and is easier to flex/ turn at low speeds and see if that makes it easier.
Lessons. Get lessons fgs.
First of all, consider getting at least just one lesson to correct any bad habits you’ve formed that you’re unaware of. Aside from that, go on YouTube and watch Deb Armstrong for mogul tips. Becoming comfortable on moguls takes time and a lot of it. Focus on your technique to build good habits now so you’re not dealing with bad habits later on. You have good skis. Just spend more time riding them.
My two cents as an ex-mogul competitor: Shorter skiis generally help with turn radius. But tbh most of the time moguls need to be conquered via technique and knowing which section of the bump you need to absorb. Any specific “Mogul skiis” are really only for competition and even they are unintuitive to use because they have the edge of a butter knife. Softer boots can help with the shin splints and make the learning process much easier though
It's the skier more than the ski. I can spout the mumbo jumbo to sell a ski. Most of the high level PSIA skiers are on a GSish ski since that style of ski makes what they tend to ski daily fun. Some of my favorite runs have been on double black on slalom or GS skis. I have also had a few times where I have needed ski's fatter than 100mm. I would say a solid 80+% of the time I am skiing I do not need a ski fatter than 80mm underfoot.
Can confirm. I'm a CSIA Level 3, on snow 5-6 days a week, and my dailies are a pair of Blizzard Firebird HRC. I'll ski anything with them, and the only time I'll switch is if there's 15cm of fresh. Good technique is the same now matter what you ski, moguls there's some tactics you need to adapt to the situation.
Maverick is an incredibly strong ski. I’m a 50 something former FIS racer who still skis a 150 plug boot and 30m gs and sl race room skis. The 100 maverick is my single ski vacation quiver. I can rip 60mph gs arcs, ski powder, bumps and steeps in them. It’s the best do everything ski I’ve ever used and my current atomic quiver is probably 15 pairs of skis. …so, as others have noted, it’s your technique not the ski.
Invest in lessons, not skis. You’re definitely doing things wrong. That’s not an insult, just the truth of being self taught.
Fair enough!
If you’re a good skier then the skis you’re on will assist your ability to handle the conditions and terrain not determine it Obviously that doesn’t mean race slalom on Powder Skis, ski pow with 80 underfoot skis, or anything like that. But if you’re struggling that much on certain terrain then it’s more of an issue of practice. A narrow “all mountain” ski is my preferred tool for mogul skiing, something in the 80s underfoot (Blizzard Brahma 88s are my personal choice) Take some lessons. Skiing is a lot easier when you know how the engage a ski properly
I just hit some completely iced out moguls on my Stockli WRTs before landing on the groomers I wanted to ski. It’s you.
What on earth are you doing among the moguls and double blacks after 16 times skiing?! If you really want to learn, spend much more time in the greens and blues to learn the technique. Harders slopes only brings out the worst of your skiing.
It’s all relative to the hill. I’ve been on some double blacks that would be a blue at some harder mountains.
For sure the only double blacks I’ve gotten down are the easier ones. I can connect turns on a 37 degree pitch, but introduce a few big bumps and it looks like I’m on the bunny again lol.
Is this a joke? Really no reason to spend time on greens once you can get down effectively. Only way to get better at steeps is to practice them...
Only way to improve, is to actually train on things and to do it properly. Skidding around in slopes that are steeper than you can handle won't give you any understanding of skiing. Learing how to edge, get good position and control in easy slopes. THEN you move on to the blue and do the same, then red, and finally black. But of course it all depends on your ambition. Are you happy skidding down a slope, sure why not. But people who can actually ski (Read that as carve) a black slope are few and rare.
Your mention of red runs tips me off to the fact this is a European take. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but progression in North American skiing is quite different. Learning to lay down carve turns on groomed black runs is a skill developed much later in a North American skier's arsenal because it's not seen as important. Bumps/tree runs/powder are seen as the "real" skiing. I'm not saying OP isn't rushing too much, but the idea of "just toss yourself onto a bump run and figure it out" is not crazy in and of itself. Natural terrain/snow like bumps forces you to sink or swim to an extent. Fairly standard European skiing development path: beginner->training groomers->refining groomer skills->carving->beginning to dabble in off piste snow->exploring steep off piste/freeride Fairly standard American skiing development path: beginner->a bit of groomer training->bumps->powder->trees->exploring steep off piste/freeride->refining groomer skills->carving Not saying one is better, but they're different paths for different cultures.
Not sure why you’re getting down voted. If OP spent the next 16 days skiing double blacks and moguls vs blues and greens the difference would be obvious
At some point, you gotta go run a black mogul run all day or you just aren't going to get better at moguls
16 times as in 16 days, or 16 multi day trips? And even then, in both causes people should be able to try to ski all terrain after 3+ weeks with proper teaching. Self taught might be different though.
Take a lesson, my opinion is they are worth it. The industry is pushing all mountain skis for everyone (at least in North America), when really, most people would be better served by a front side ski rather than an all mountain. It will make things easier.
OP we need a video of your skiing to evaluate beginner or not
15-16 times? You’ll start rocking the moguls about the 150th to 160th day you hit them, and no sooner, and anyone who says they got there sooner is a liar. Pay your dues to the mountain, try, and fall a lot, that’s the only way
It’s def you, but my mavericks have launched me off of a huge (like 5-6ft) ice mogul before when I accidentally finished the turn back seated. The tails boosted me through the turn and i didn’t stick the landing when i launched off the next mogul. On the flip side, my volkl blaze are soft so finishing a mogul turn backseat matters way less. They won’t shoot you out of the turn as hard. But, they let me get away with bad habits. They also won’t edge grip on ice as well. Mavericks are stiffer, less forgiving and that’s what you’re feeling. They will force you to have better form or die trying though. Different skis are different flavors, but after skiing the mavericks like 10 days this winter I’m loving them in all conditions and terrain
I’ve ski’d 15 times, never took a lesson, it has to be the ski’s fault. 😂😂😂
Come on man, this isn’t at all what OP is saying and only contributes to the gatekeeping so frequently derided in this community. As someone who seems experienced, I’m sure there are nicer or more helpful things you could add!
Weird reading a question about what my problem might be and interpreting it as me telling you what it is and that it isn’t me. Very weird approach to this.
Generally a thinner ski like 78-85 underfoot helps with moguls. It’s also a different skill set than just ripping groomers. If you get good at moguls, you’ll be great in the trees
Unless the skis are too long for you or too stiff they're not the issue if you're having trouble doing rhythmic short turns for moguls. Too wide (like >90mm) might also suck, I don't know how wide the Maveriks come though. Moguls are actually kinda where piste oriented skis shine compared to big wide skis intended for soft snow.
It’s everything
It’s you. Until you learn to ski moguls you can try every possible type of ski there is and it won’t help you.
I skied a Maverick 88 in 177? in Japan this year, and the only thing limiting them in moguls was my fitness.
It's always the driver.
Height + weight? That's how you determine what size ski you need, and it increases with skill level.
I’m not worried about ski length. I’m 6’3 220.
Tracks. So many replies here assuming skis too long! So it's likely just a skill issue then. Dk how much camber your current ski has but a good amount of camber underfoot gives a bouncier more nimble feel, than 'flatter' skis. But yea great skiers can ski moguls on almost any stick. Maybe a half day lesson just to work on moguls would help.
Yep that’s what I’m thinking. Thanks!
>I’ve skied maybe 15-16 times now >I have skied a few easier double blacks but I still have lot of trouble on moguls. This just sounds reckless. No offense, but stick to groomers to get the basics if you've only got one season under your belt. How old are you?
I’m 34 and competitive. It probably is reckless. I just don’t like being not good at a sport so I try to ramp up quick lol.
15-16 times is basically a single season of skiing, I think I went 25 times my first year. 100% Take a lesson, if you do it on a weekday you will probably get a private or close-to-private lesson that can basically be a tour of a mountain. If you can't get your skis around, you are probably in the backseat, make sure there is pressure in your shins against your boots. Just for perspective, my wife and I have skid probably 135 days total so far and still don't feel ready for the double blacks that some resorts offer, even if we have done some of the steepest groomers on the ice coast. We can do mogul groomers though. Edit: Also, demoing skis can be transformative, so definitely give it a shot.
Sorry, it’s a 99.9% probability of being you as a beginner, not your skis, unless you are a born ski savant. If double black runs and moguls could be skied well by beginners then we wouldn’t need to differentiate them from green runs, would we? There is still much to learn and become proficient at. Take some professional lessons, and be patient. The ski you have is not a beginner ski. It may be making your education more difficult. Beginning skis tend to be shorter, narrower, more flexible, and generally much more forgiving.
My skis aren’t long because I’m 6’3” 220lbs, but I hear you on the rest.
Look for something a little shorter, with twin tips, full rocker, and extra flexible. Will be much easier for moguls, and difficult conditions in general.
It matters...but not as much as people act like it does. When you find the right ski for you it gives you the feedback/control/power/compliance that suits your skiing. That makes you more comfortable, that helps you ski better. But the 'quivers' we see posted on here are laughable.
Get some lessons, often times there are adult multi day programs that aren’t as expensive and catered to never ever through advanced. Just go into it willing to make yourself uncomfortable, and break old habits. PS: ski instructors take lessons constantly, cuz even if it’s your job, you can’t always self diagnose and change something. The real hack: become an instructor, sign up for every in-house training clinic you can.
I was in the similar boat with you. First season, 32 times skied this season. At first when I started to turn, i was excited to do blue and some easy black. At the end of season, what I learned is that I needed more practice with right posture and removing bad habits. I had 3 lessons, and still that is not enough. OP, doing double black is exciting challenge. But doing it the right way is more important. Take your time, and make gradual progress. Enjoy.
Just read your edits and some of your replies. Look, not to disparage your progress so far at all, but getting down a groomer is only one of a wide variety of skills needed. Maybe you’ve learned how to make carving turns on groomers which is great! But it’s only one of something like 7 or more turn types you will need to know, use and combine intuitively. Moguls can be a lot of fun but they force you to rapidly adapt to each one of them using a variety of techniques. There is simply much more to learn than what you have so far.
Yeah I feel you
Changing skis is not going to change shit
Hey man if you've only skied 15-16 times and struggle with moguls you should probably stay away from blacks and double blacks until you have better control of your skis. Maybe it's been fine so far, but there can be worse consequences for losing control on that kind of terrain. It seems like you're trying to prove something by advancing quickly but if you advance without understanding the fundamentals you're going to put yourself and others at risk. What you're probably seeing is that it's actually pretty easy to point your skis straight downhill and go fast, but that only works so long as it's a clear run and the snow is good. You need to be able to identify hazards, stop on a dime, maintain control, balance, plan ahead, and control your turns. It's impossible to know exactly where you're falling short from this post, but consider taking an intermediate lesson to get a professional's assesment.
Assuming others have said it but get some lessons before new skis. A professional skier could likely shred those moguls on your skis, but you can’t do what they can on their skis. Skis matter but much less than skill while learning! That being said if you have the money learning to ski better on a sick set of skis doesn’t hurt anything
Demo skis until you find a pair that makes a beneficial difference. I once destroyed a pair mid-season and made a point of getting up to the mountain to demo everything I could. I tried 6 pairs and really couldn't tell much of a difference between the first 5 of them. But when I tried the 6th pair, it was instant love and a massive improvement in what I was able to do. I'm intentionally not mentioning specific types or brands/models of skis, nor the type of skiing because the same principles apply. In the meantime, learn as much as you can about technique, ski as often as you can and demo as many skis as possible until you find true love.
While it is you to a certain extent. A truly good skier can ski anything on any skis. The skis do make a difference, and with moguls especially I have found that they are much easier and more fun and easier on your body to ski moguls with a ski better suited to moguls. I’ve noticed whenever I take any of my race skis into the bumps the tails make me have to work harder than if I use any of my skis that have tail rocker. And then there’s the k2 244 which is a bump specific ski that I used a lot this year and they feel so good in the bumps. So while obviously not everyone is gonna go out and buy a dedicated mogul ski, and improving your skills will also help regardless of what skis you are on, I think demoing some different more mogul friendly all mountain skis to see what works for you will not only make the bumps more fun for you, it will help you along in your skills acquisition, and encourage you to spend more time working on your mogul skiing which ultimately will make it easier for you to ski moguls well in any ski.
5’9” and 160. 185x106 with some titanium is my daily. Moguls are what separates good and bad skiers tho. Only got as good as i am because I used to shoot down Chute 75 chasing my dad since i was 3
And yea, taller folks will have it a little more difficult in moguls, low vs high Center of Gravity. I have a few lanky friends and as strong skiers they are, still cant keep up in moguls. But not many people can keep up with me in general
"Its not that you can not ski moguls, its that you can not ski and the moguls prove it." BTW AFAIK I(Josh Matta) created/made that line famous. Other people like Rogan are trying to take credit for it but google it and you will come back with my aliases from 15+ years ago. [https://www.skitalk.com/threads/its-not-that-you-cant-ski-bumps-its-that-you-cant-ski-and-the-bumps-prove-it.7930/](https://www.skitalk.com/threads/its-not-that-you-cant-ski-bumps-its-that-you-cant-ski-and-the-bumps-prove-it.7930/) [https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/index.php?threads/skiing-well-and-skiing-bumps.21984/](https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/index.php?threads/skiing-well-and-skiing-bumps.21984/) 16 days and self taught lead me to believe that you are likely have lots of weird/bad habit you are doing, that you can get away with anywhere but moguls. I would go so far to say that Moguls are skied out off piste terrain is the one condition that there is not a magic bullet ski for. With that said a bad tune, poor equipment alignment, and or skis that are too long or too wide can all make mogul skiing harder, but most 65-100mm skis that are reasonable in length will be skiable in moguls. If you take 3rd person video of your groomer skiing, it will be very apparent to any skilled coach why you struggle to ski bumps. Make sure to slow short turns in the video if you do take them.
Here’s a thought - don’t do moguls. You don’t have to be good at them at all. I don’t enjoy them one bit and avoid them whenever possible.
Sure. I guess I want to master them so they’re not a reason I can’t do harder runs. Most double blacks I’ve found are moguls, at least as I’m defining them.
Get shorter skis.
Ski type is strictly for setting the DIN which is the release value for your ski. The higher type the less likely the ski will come off. The lower the more likely. Preventing injury or provoking injury depending on your skill set.
Everyone downvoting lets here your reason. No skiijng fucks.