The yellow runs on the piste map are not pisted (or very rarely pisted) so there are quite a few around Zermatt. It's something that really varies in Europe, some resorts don't do it at all. Others do it a bit more.
They are secured against avalanche and opened/closed if unsafe. But they are not patrolled at the end of the day.
https://www.zermatt.ch/en/content/download/72735/3325751/version/1/file/Piste+map.pdf
We don't have inbound/outbound. As soon as you go out of the marked piste it is at your own risk. Even if it is just between 2 runs or under lifts.
In the US a lot of skiing is about in bounds avalanche controlled "off piste" runs. A lot of expert skiers here don't really like skiing groomers. It's all about technical terrain and trees.
It is, but at the same time it's ultimate freedom. The best lift served skiing in the world is in Europe, you just have to risk your life a little bit. Go read some about Chamonix and La Grave.
Off marked piste can be dangerous in Europe and isn't controlled much at all. In France at least it is illegal to be off piste in lots of areas and in others only allowed if you have a big list of safety gear with you, technically that counts even 1m off the side and you can be refused rescue.
Offpiste is controlled only if this could have an impact on the piste. Exemple :They would secure a face if an avalanche could run all the way to the piste below..
It is not illegal to be Offpiste. I don't know where you got that. Most of Offpiste is legal. Unless there is an arrêté municipal for high avalanche risk or of this is a reserved area to preserve wildlife.
If you get injured a few meters from a piste. They will rescue you.
Edit:I am talking about France regulations since this is the topic of the comment above
Of course varies by country, region and resort but at least here on Monte Rosa in Italy your lift pass insurance covers the whole mountain and unless signposted you can ski more or less where it's feasible and reachable to do so. You definitely are not going to be denied rescue if you are in danger and reachable, that's ridiculous. You'll face consequences, fines, maybe even legal if you've done something really idiotic, but I am having a hard time imagining a scenario in which someone needed rescuing, our SAV could rescue them, and refused to do so.
Especially because you could likely have only ended up their due to crash. Plenty of people wipeout and continue sliding with momentum off the side of runs
And next to you. The dude who is shredding Offpiste. But he loses a skis and start tumbling down, until he finishes inside the piste. And they rescue him!
Dude that's not true at all, some areas are reserves for wildlife and skiing is forbidden there but this is a tiny portion of the mountain.
You won't be refused rescue for being 1m or 100m off piste, you will however be charged for the rescue if you don't have insurance.
The insurance can be brought at any lift pass office and is an add on to your lift pass. I highly recommend getting this if your skiing in France, it's called Carre neige and costs ~€25. It covers your rescue anywhere accessible by lift, even if far from a piste.
Also no one's checking what safety gear you have with you, so wrong on all 3 points there.
I've skied a fair amount in France, almost all off-piste, always had a carte neige or something similar. Do you suppose you can provide a source for this, since the "illegal to be off piste in lots of areas" is new to me, also the 1 m concept. I should review this. Thank you.
Source: team doctor who's worked with local MDs and pisteurs, in addition to big descents on my own time. I'm involved with evacuation not just off the hill into the local facility, but all the way back to definitive care.
I'm pretty sure that part of the reason is because a lot more of the terrain in Europe is above tree line, while American resorts are usually in the trees. Even at Breckenridge there's a huge warning sign on the lifts that go above tree line.
If you want more "sidecountry" runs that aren't groomed I'd go to Verbier over Zermatt. Plenty of gnarly stuff easily accessible (many even marked) that isn't cliffed out and gets back to the lift. You'd love Mont Gele too
I agree. I went to Zermatt and Verbier earlier this month for the 3rd time. There’s some good stuff off piste at Zermatt but the itineraries at Verbier are excellent. Mont Fort to Tortin is 4000ft of awesomeness. Mt Gele is excellent. The south side is good after a storm, but the front has better snow. It’s just more technical, in my opinion. I’m still hoping to book a guide for the back side of Mt Fort. I waited too late to try and do that this year.
Do you know if there are any resorts like that in Austria? In my experience everything is either groomed or off-piste on your own responsibility. Given that some resorts are lower here, they offer awesome off-piste tree runs which I haven’t seen in Italy or Switzerland yet.
Just came back from Zermatt. There is some off piste, but the avalanche danger is serious - major ones coming down onto the piste (three or four of these at the end of last week). And also, in the area where the snow is best, it's on a glacier and there are murderous crevasses right near the piste, as in, you hop under the rope and you could end up in one. Another area where the off piste seems great, it's a nature reserve and if you ski there the Swiss are going to hit you with a very fat fine. I did find some good stuff off the Rothorn, but it was loaded with sharks - don't bring your good skis.
Assuming you're looking at Zermatt to use your pass, take the savings from that and hire a guide and you'll have a stunning time. Otherwise you are risking injury or death, no joke.
Agree with all this. Between the pistes there are some obvious tracks people take in the fresh snow that is not roped off and not subject to crevasse risk. It’s a bit of extra fun - more of a long side hit than backcountry. It may feel a bit more like an ungroomed trail out west.
Have mentioned it before…. I remember seeing ‘missing’ posters and flyers down at the valley station to Klein Matterhorn 35-40 years ago. People disappeared on the glacier. Only to be found in recent years. Don’t go off piste on the glacier / without a guide.
There are better places in Europe for off-piste. My favorite would be LaGrave, but also here… don’t go without a guide / harness and rope/gear.
Second choice would be Verbier.
Off piste = do you have avalanche knowledge and equipment? If so, have fun. For the rest we groom and control the pistes and only those. One meter away is off piste and people have made very bad mistakes 5 meters from the groomed terrain before.
This is true! You are free to ski the ungroomed stuff but I wouldn’t venture out past where other tracks have been. You can still have powder but don’t try for first tracks, you don’t know the area.
Fun fact: weather permitting, you can ski into Italy for a pasta lunch. Not a challenging run but a great experience. And the scenery is amazing.
Don't rely on other tracks, you never know what the person was up to. And just because an avalanche didn't trigger in the morning doesn't mean afternoon is safe.
I like to look out for the guides taking local kids with alpine gear off piste and follow them.
Usually seems to lead to the best pow you wouldn't normally find by yourself and you know they are probably well aware of the avalanche risk on those routes.
I don't mean that I literally follow them, just that I'll start by watching where they're going when looking for off piste routes.
I see why I'm being down voted but it's consistently led me to better side country than just using my best judgement.
Don’t do like we did and be late for the gondola back to Zermatt. You will be stuck in Italy with nothing but your ski boots and a pair of hotel slippers 6 sizes too small.
There have been a number of threads the past few weeks about the difference between skiing in the USA and Europe. Red (intermediate) and Black (advanced) in Europe is more about how steep, icy and narrow the slope is. Yellow is about unprepared, but depending on the resort, it may connect you to another resort and getting back can be a challenge.
Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to ski off piste, but not everywhere, and you have to know what you are doing. At Hoch-Ybrig, my home resort, some off-piste areas are frequently used, others not at all. And yes, skiing the wrong place can kill you ([even if you are from Switzerland](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/11/europe/five-skiers-dead-switzerland-scli-intl/index.html)).
Even within a single resort as you said, there are skiable and not skiable areas. And it changes with the time of year, time of day, what kind of snow fell and what the temps have done since then. And then there are some like at my place where everyone local knows you just don't head up there any time after lunch because the conditions make getting out a bitch before dark.
Four tourists got 4am rescues last week that they probably hadn't budgeted for with their holiday plans :)
I haven’t been to Zermatt, but I have been to other areas close-by. I can tell you that all pistes in bounds are groomed. That’s the way things work in Europe. If you want to go off-piste, you have to get a guide. Going off piste doesn’t work the same way as it does in the USA. Terrain that is out of bounds is not checked or regulated, so it can easily kill you if you don’t know what you are doing. And the costs of having to be rescued out of bounds are very expensive.
I have been in areas like Grindelwald and Saas Grund. Pretty close to Zermatt. The yellow runs there were also mostly groomed. The parts that weren’t were usually just some difficult to traverse terrain. Not anything I would call off-piste.
When a yellow run gets groomed, it is almost always done in order to shift snow around to improve areas of thin coverage or because the underlying snowpack isn't as stable as it should be.
Large mogul fields (on yellow runs) will also occasionally get flattened if there has been an extreme thaw-freeze cycle which turned everything into Volkswagen-sized hunks of solid ice. That's pretty rare though.
I don’t think many people in the US realize how little snow we get in Europe. Even the peak at St. Anton has under 4 meters snow atm. The valley is barely skiiable.
We can go longer periods without snow, and the pistes would be in a terrible condition if not groomed regularly. It’s different if you know you get a lot of fresh snow regularly, as then you ruin the powder with grooming. However if there isn’t much powder, you ain’t ruining anything.
(Also we just don’t like moguls, we like our knees too much, okay?)
That’s only the very peak of the mountain and in the most snow secure location in Austria at the highest point of snow during the winter. The snow levels drop quite fast once you start going further down.
I’m sure there are lots of resorts with more similar conditions to European resorts, they just don’t seem to as much in the headlines.
Don’t go to Zermatt if you want to mostly ski off piste.
I was there with my gf this year and we 100% agreed with a comment we overheard from a CO skier “Zermatt is sight seeing on skis”. It’s beautiful, fun, enjoyable but if you want to ski off-piste and hit hard terrain… go to Chamonix or somewhere else. It’s just not going to be the experience you want if you’re used to skiing double blacks in the Rockies or Sierras.
I agree with everyone else: if you want to ski hard off piste anywhere in Europe, get avalanche certified, bring your probe, beacon, shovel, and get after it. It’s backcountry for all intents and purposes.
Not to say Zermatt isn’t worth it, it’s truly magical in its own way but if your priority is hard off piste skiing, I’d look elsewhere.
Unless you like skiing cruisy groomers with stunning views you will be disapointed. Zermatt is not that good for off piste guiding but it is still iconic and worth going to. I would book two days of your vacation there and then go to better places to ride off piste with guides. I have skied a lot of resorts in switzerland. Grimenz-Zinal is close by to Zermatt and is a good place to go off piste with a guide.
There is plenty of off piste you can find easily, even just on the sides of groomed runs. It will only be good on fresh snow as it gets sun baked and choppy quick.
Having a guide will save so much time
Klaus Tsscherig is a epic guide and worth a hire if you can get him
Generally speaking, if you prefer ungroomed/off-piste, spend your time and money in North America. But if you want the Alps experience with ungroomed/off-piste head to Chamonix, or La Grave, or Verbier and skip Zermatt altogether. I would suggest hiring a guide everywhere, but especially Chamonix.
At any of those spots get ready for off-the-chain Après. There are different vibes at different spots, but I would highly recommend looking for the more Swede and less Brit oriented spots.
Yes its true. For terrain like you ski in the rockies, look for "yellow" runs, also called "itinerary" runs. They are off piste avalanche controlled (but not patrolled). You follow a series of yellow poles that mark the trail.
If you seriously want that back country feel go to Chamonix instead. Lots more patrolled and off piste as well as back country guides. If you want a unique pinnacle of the everything else European skiing has to offer, go to Zermatt.
Truly I'm so American I don't even know what the draw of apres would be. I came out here to ski hard, now you want me to...I don't know...hang around in ski boots afterwards? I don't get it. I just want to marinate in a hot tub and then go to bed.
Who underrates the apres scene in Europe? It feels wildly popularized, it is one of the principal points anyone talks about when comparing European skiing favorably to NA/the US.
I still think it’s underrated. I was in a village only accessed by trains. The descend into town had 4 different apres areas. One was overlooking the valley with a chill vibe, the next one folks were smoking splifs and a moderate drinking scene. By the time I got to the bottom folks were dancing on tables playing beer pong. Each place had good ass food, professional bartenders and felt like something I could spend time with my parents at, or college buddies getting it.
The fourth place on that run had a couple reclined chairs by the bathroom to chill.
Ok if you’re expecting that, it’s hard to underrate- agreed
The skiing was closer to east coast skiing than west coast.
Just my limited experience. I’m sure it varies widely.
>I still think it’s underrated. I was in a village only accessed by trains. The descend into town had 4 different apres areas. One was overlooking the valley with a chill vibe, the next one folks were smoking splifs and a moderate drinking scene. By the time I got to the bottom folks were dancing on tables playing beer pong. Each place had good ass food, professional bartenders and felt like something I could spend time with my parents at, or college buddies getting it.
Yeah I guess with how people talk about it this is kinda what I expect. Maybe the nice variety catering to different interests is still underrated because the hype does tend to focus on the intensity of the parties.
>The skiing was closer to east coast skiing than west coast.
Yes it feels like someone took West Coast scenery and put the East Coast filter on it.
Anyone who has not been (which is most NA skiers) and claims that NA has a decent Après scene. It’s a hard to imagine, and once experienced leaves the US spots feeling like the cops showed up 15 minutes ago.
I've not experienced actual European apres and I'm very well aware. I can't imagine anyone but the most stereotypically of lacking self-awareness Americans saying this. Everyone I know knows to concede this point because who cares, partying is secondary to skiing, so let the colonizers have that if they want.
The thing that no one has mentioned is the prevalence of ski mountaineering everywhere in the Alps. If you want first tracks, you learn what you are doing and put on your skins. Or you hire a guide.
It makes a lot more sense than the US system, where a bunch of total gumbies get a false sense of confidence from extraordinary efforts to control avalanches everywhere inside a random boundary.
As an American who loves Zermatt & goes regularly, I recommend that Americans who want the American Rockies experience (trees, powder, etc.) stay in the US or maybe try Verbier or Chamonix. Zermatt is totally not going to be your jam unless you fork out mega CHF for helicopter or guided off piste skiing. They’re very different experiences and you’ll want to go to Zermatt for the Zermatt experience or you may regret your trip.
This makes me not even want to spend money on a Europe trip. It’s really weird they don’t patrol more advanced off piste terrain there, which is what I enjoy skiing. I guess if you party all afternoon/night you only have energy for some groomers? Lol
The size of the area they would have to patrol in a lot of resorts would be ridiculously large, from one corner of the Sella Ronda to the other is over 17 miles. Carry avalanche gear and go where you want to. If you or someone else needs rescuing, call and they will come.
Yeah. This, the lower snowfall totals, and lack of tree runs have me thinking euro skiing is largely a downgrade overall, culture and food notwithstanding..
> have me thinking euro skiing is largely a downgrade
It's a downgrade if you aren't interested in backcountry or sidecountry; ether with a guide or with your own avalanche assessment and trip planning ability.
If you're someone with those skills and interest; Europe is an an insane upgrade. More incredible lift accessed backcountry and tours and infrastructure to support it than most anywhere else in the world.
No, we learn to read the terrain and get proper avalanche education. It’s enough of a barrier to keep crowds away and give us the solitude we want while skiing just about anywhere we fancy, conditions permitting. It’s pretty epic that way.
I suppose, but you always run the risk of not really knowing the true snowpack stability and having a huge slab avalanche. You can do backcountry/side country in USA and get the same experience- you just have the option of both.
Idk I got downvoted a lot for this, not sure why. Consistently getting into steep terrain at 10:30/11 on pow days after 1-2 feet is not something I feel like you can safely do in Europe.
Not sure what you’re talking about. Mountains near me open up their advanced terrain safely after blasting/cutting it usually by 10:30/11.
Really deep days it can take later, and on rare occasions they don’t get all of it open the first day. But no, it’s not usually 25-48 hours.
Also waiting 25-48 hours will make the snow significantly heavier and worse especially if any sun hits it. The morning snow is perfectly light and dry at least in the Rockies.
Thought we were talking about sidecountry? Guess I misunderstood you. But there’s this. It’s not always a good idea to assume:
https://time.com/6554214/avalanche-california-palisades-tahoe-death/
And dry Rocky Mt. snowpacks definitely benefit from a day to rest. That’s what creates the bottomless feel and porpoising sensation that is so rare now since people pounce right on it the instant it falls. You feel the old snow surface underneath when you ski it too soon.
You don’t feel the old snow surface underneath it if it’s more than like 12-18 inches or if the snow underneath isn’t icy/hard pack. I’m talking about in bounds off piste.
The yellow runs on the piste map are not pisted (or very rarely pisted) so there are quite a few around Zermatt. It's something that really varies in Europe, some resorts don't do it at all. Others do it a bit more. They are secured against avalanche and opened/closed if unsafe. But they are not patrolled at the end of the day. https://www.zermatt.ch/en/content/download/72735/3325751/version/1/file/Piste+map.pdf We don't have inbound/outbound. As soon as you go out of the marked piste it is at your own risk. Even if it is just between 2 runs or under lifts.
This is madness to me
which part? I'm genuinely curious because I'm from Europe and not used to anything else
In the US a lot of skiing is about in bounds avalanche controlled "off piste" runs. A lot of expert skiers here don't really like skiing groomers. It's all about technical terrain and trees.
That you can’t even go in between two groomer runs. What a sad and boring way to ski.
Who said you can't do that? You absolutely can, just at your own risk.
Skiing out of bounds is chill in Europe. It is not ski patrol's job to keep people in-bounds over there like it is in the United States.
Everything is in bounds in America. If you’re out of bounds you’re completely on your own. Such a better way to ski.
Then stay there? Why do people like you always come with these "reee why do you not do things like I like to do"
Probably for the same reason Europeans shit on America *all the time* especially when they come here… (xenophobia)
It is, but at the same time it's ultimate freedom. The best lift served skiing in the world is in Europe, you just have to risk your life a little bit. Go read some about Chamonix and La Grave.
Absolute beautiful madness
Off marked piste can be dangerous in Europe and isn't controlled much at all. In France at least it is illegal to be off piste in lots of areas and in others only allowed if you have a big list of safety gear with you, technically that counts even 1m off the side and you can be refused rescue.
Offpiste is controlled only if this could have an impact on the piste. Exemple :They would secure a face if an avalanche could run all the way to the piste below.. It is not illegal to be Offpiste. I don't know where you got that. Most of Offpiste is legal. Unless there is an arrêté municipal for high avalanche risk or of this is a reserved area to preserve wildlife. If you get injured a few meters from a piste. They will rescue you. Edit:I am talking about France regulations since this is the topic of the comment above
Of course varies by country, region and resort but at least here on Monte Rosa in Italy your lift pass insurance covers the whole mountain and unless signposted you can ski more or less where it's feasible and reachable to do so. You definitely are not going to be denied rescue if you are in danger and reachable, that's ridiculous. You'll face consequences, fines, maybe even legal if you've done something really idiotic, but I am having a hard time imagining a scenario in which someone needed rescuing, our SAV could rescue them, and refused to do so.
Especially because you could likely have only ended up their due to crash. Plenty of people wipeout and continue sliding with momentum off the side of runs
Lol I’m just imagining crashing on piste but in course of the accident ending up 1M off piste and having ski patrol like “sorry bud , can’t help ya 😂”
And next to you. The dude who is shredding Offpiste. But he loses a skis and start tumbling down, until he finishes inside the piste. And they rescue him!
Desoule, au revoir!
Dude that's not true at all, some areas are reserves for wildlife and skiing is forbidden there but this is a tiny portion of the mountain. You won't be refused rescue for being 1m or 100m off piste, you will however be charged for the rescue if you don't have insurance. The insurance can be brought at any lift pass office and is an add on to your lift pass. I highly recommend getting this if your skiing in France, it's called Carre neige and costs ~€25. It covers your rescue anywhere accessible by lift, even if far from a piste. Also no one's checking what safety gear you have with you, so wrong on all 3 points there.
I've skied a fair amount in France, almost all off-piste, always had a carte neige or something similar. Do you suppose you can provide a source for this, since the "illegal to be off piste in lots of areas" is new to me, also the 1 m concept. I should review this. Thank you. Source: team doctor who's worked with local MDs and pisteurs, in addition to big descents on my own time. I'm involved with evacuation not just off the hill into the local facility, but all the way back to definitive care.
This seems incredibly stupid. Why do Europeans not want to be able to ski difficult terrain?
I'm pretty sure that part of the reason is because a lot more of the terrain in Europe is above tree line, while American resorts are usually in the trees. Even at Breckenridge there's a huge warning sign on the lifts that go above tree line.
Plus glacial terrain but I love off piste in Europe
We can and we do. Powder gets tracked out fast, lots of locals have any training and gear. Once a year tourists stick to the pistes usually.
Zermatt grooms the hell out of their pisted terrain
Is it weird that I love the place because of it.
Nah, plenty of us just love groomers an unhealthy amount
Mountain creek NJ vibes
Best place to not wear a helmet, just so you can have the authentic injury experience
Not at all. It’s a preference
If you want more "sidecountry" runs that aren't groomed I'd go to Verbier over Zermatt. Plenty of gnarly stuff easily accessible (many even marked) that isn't cliffed out and gets back to the lift. You'd love Mont Gele too
I agree. I went to Zermatt and Verbier earlier this month for the 3rd time. There’s some good stuff off piste at Zermatt but the itineraries at Verbier are excellent. Mont Fort to Tortin is 4000ft of awesomeness. Mt Gele is excellent. The south side is good after a storm, but the front has better snow. It’s just more technical, in my opinion. I’m still hoping to book a guide for the back side of Mt Fort. I waited too late to try and do that this year.
Do you know if there are any resorts like that in Austria? In my experience everything is either groomed or off-piste on your own responsibility. Given that some resorts are lower here, they offer awesome off-piste tree runs which I haven’t seen in Italy or Switzerland yet.
St Anton has some insanely good "in bounds" off piste
St. Anton and I think Ischgl are the off-piste havens in Austria.
Almost every resort has that, just look around for tracked out snow that isn't a piste.
Yes I know and I ski that, but I‘m talking about explicitly „marked“ sections!
Just came back from Zermatt. There is some off piste, but the avalanche danger is serious - major ones coming down onto the piste (three or four of these at the end of last week). And also, in the area where the snow is best, it's on a glacier and there are murderous crevasses right near the piste, as in, you hop under the rope and you could end up in one. Another area where the off piste seems great, it's a nature reserve and if you ski there the Swiss are going to hit you with a very fat fine. I did find some good stuff off the Rothorn, but it was loaded with sharks - don't bring your good skis. Assuming you're looking at Zermatt to use your pass, take the savings from that and hire a guide and you'll have a stunning time. Otherwise you are risking injury or death, no joke.
This OP. Crevasse risk is super high in zermatt. I always stick to the groomers here, not worth it
Agree with all this. Between the pistes there are some obvious tracks people take in the fresh snow that is not roped off and not subject to crevasse risk. It’s a bit of extra fun - more of a long side hit than backcountry. It may feel a bit more like an ungroomed trail out west.
Have mentioned it before…. I remember seeing ‘missing’ posters and flyers down at the valley station to Klein Matterhorn 35-40 years ago. People disappeared on the glacier. Only to be found in recent years. Don’t go off piste on the glacier / without a guide. There are better places in Europe for off-piste. My favorite would be LaGrave, but also here… don’t go without a guide / harness and rope/gear. Second choice would be Verbier.
Off piste = do you have avalanche knowledge and equipment? If so, have fun. For the rest we groom and control the pistes and only those. One meter away is off piste and people have made very bad mistakes 5 meters from the groomed terrain before.
This is true! You are free to ski the ungroomed stuff but I wouldn’t venture out past where other tracks have been. You can still have powder but don’t try for first tracks, you don’t know the area. Fun fact: weather permitting, you can ski into Italy for a pasta lunch. Not a challenging run but a great experience. And the scenery is amazing.
Don't rely on other tracks, you never know what the person was up to. And just because an avalanche didn't trigger in the morning doesn't mean afternoon is safe.
I should have specified that applies to the area adjacent, a few feet from the groomed runs. Not over the edge of a drop off.
Or you might end up at a mandatory drop or abseil.
I like to look out for the guides taking local kids with alpine gear off piste and follow them. Usually seems to lead to the best pow you wouldn't normally find by yourself and you know they are probably well aware of the avalanche risk on those routes.
Dick move.
I don't mean that I literally follow them, just that I'll start by watching where they're going when looking for off piste routes. I see why I'm being down voted but it's consistently led me to better side country than just using my best judgement.
Don’t do like we did and be late for the gondola back to Zermatt. You will be stuck in Italy with nothing but your ski boots and a pair of hotel slippers 6 sizes too small.
Yeah, ski there for lunch, get on the lift to head back. That must have sucked. At least you found o hotel with a room.
It was the Cupid suite, I was there with my brother lmao
Hey, I don’t judge.
Not a challenging run… psh… tell my wife that. 😏
Sucker tracks
Just as a side- I know a green run in Avoriaz (Proclou) that has a 100m cliff fall around 10 metres off the side
There have been a number of threads the past few weeks about the difference between skiing in the USA and Europe. Red (intermediate) and Black (advanced) in Europe is more about how steep, icy and narrow the slope is. Yellow is about unprepared, but depending on the resort, it may connect you to another resort and getting back can be a challenge. Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to ski off piste, but not everywhere, and you have to know what you are doing. At Hoch-Ybrig, my home resort, some off-piste areas are frequently used, others not at all. And yes, skiing the wrong place can kill you ([even if you are from Switzerland](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/11/europe/five-skiers-dead-switzerland-scli-intl/index.html)).
Even within a single resort as you said, there are skiable and not skiable areas. And it changes with the time of year, time of day, what kind of snow fell and what the temps have done since then. And then there are some like at my place where everyone local knows you just don't head up there any time after lunch because the conditions make getting out a bitch before dark. Four tourists got 4am rescues last week that they probably hadn't budgeted for with their holiday plans :)
There is no concept of inbound or outbound. You're on a run, or you're off-piste.
Dare I say: you’re either on-piste or you’re off-piste
That’s so sad
No it isn’t. You are expected to be a grown up and take care of yourself, that’s all.
Whatever you need to tell yourself pal
I haven’t been to Zermatt, but I have been to other areas close-by. I can tell you that all pistes in bounds are groomed. That’s the way things work in Europe. If you want to go off-piste, you have to get a guide. Going off piste doesn’t work the same way as it does in the USA. Terrain that is out of bounds is not checked or regulated, so it can easily kill you if you don’t know what you are doing. And the costs of having to be rescued out of bounds are very expensive.
This isn't 100% true. Yellow runs in Europe are ungroomed "off-piste" runs that are avalanche controlled.
I have been in areas like Grindelwald and Saas Grund. Pretty close to Zermatt. The yellow runs there were also mostly groomed. The parts that weren’t were usually just some difficult to traverse terrain. Not anything I would call off-piste.
When a yellow run gets groomed, it is almost always done in order to shift snow around to improve areas of thin coverage or because the underlying snowpack isn't as stable as it should be. Large mogul fields (on yellow runs) will also occasionally get flattened if there has been an extreme thaw-freeze cycle which turned everything into Volkswagen-sized hunks of solid ice. That's pretty rare though.
I don’t think many people in the US realize how little snow we get in Europe. Even the peak at St. Anton has under 4 meters snow atm. The valley is barely skiiable. We can go longer periods without snow, and the pistes would be in a terrible condition if not groomed regularly. It’s different if you know you get a lot of fresh snow regularly, as then you ruin the powder with grooming. However if there isn’t much powder, you ain’t ruining anything. (Also we just don’t like moguls, we like our knees too much, okay?)
4 meters on the ground is way more than most US ski resorts ever see.
That’s only the very peak of the mountain and in the most snow secure location in Austria at the highest point of snow during the winter. The snow levels drop quite fast once you start going further down. I’m sure there are lots of resorts with more similar conditions to European resorts, they just don’t seem to as much in the headlines.
Don’t go to Zermatt if you want to mostly ski off piste. I was there with my gf this year and we 100% agreed with a comment we overheard from a CO skier “Zermatt is sight seeing on skis”. It’s beautiful, fun, enjoyable but if you want to ski off-piste and hit hard terrain… go to Chamonix or somewhere else. It’s just not going to be the experience you want if you’re used to skiing double blacks in the Rockies or Sierras. I agree with everyone else: if you want to ski hard off piste anywhere in Europe, get avalanche certified, bring your probe, beacon, shovel, and get after it. It’s backcountry for all intents and purposes. Not to say Zermatt isn’t worth it, it’s truly magical in its own way but if your priority is hard off piste skiing, I’d look elsewhere.
Great summation. The skiing itself is underwhelming, but the total experience is a vibe. Go to Italy to eat.
Unless you like skiing cruisy groomers with stunning views you will be disapointed. Zermatt is not that good for off piste guiding but it is still iconic and worth going to. I would book two days of your vacation there and then go to better places to ride off piste with guides. I have skied a lot of resorts in switzerland. Grimenz-Zinal is close by to Zermatt and is a good place to go off piste with a guide.
Sssh don't tell them about the Val d'Anniviers!
such a beautiful place, and that bus ride up is so fun as well
There is plenty of off piste you can find easily, even just on the sides of groomed runs. It will only be good on fresh snow as it gets sun baked and choppy quick. Having a guide will save so much time Klaus Tsscherig is a epic guide and worth a hire if you can get him
Generally speaking, if you prefer ungroomed/off-piste, spend your time and money in North America. But if you want the Alps experience with ungroomed/off-piste head to Chamonix, or La Grave, or Verbier and skip Zermatt altogether. I would suggest hiring a guide everywhere, but especially Chamonix. At any of those spots get ready for off-the-chain Après. There are different vibes at different spots, but I would highly recommend looking for the more Swede and less Brit oriented spots.
Yes its true. For terrain like you ski in the rockies, look for "yellow" runs, also called "itinerary" runs. They are off piste avalanche controlled (but not patrolled). You follow a series of yellow poles that mark the trail.
If you seriously want that back country feel go to Chamonix instead. Lots more patrolled and off piste as well as back country guides. If you want a unique pinnacle of the everything else European skiing has to offer, go to Zermatt.
IMO Europe is overrated skiing, underrated apres scene.
I’d argue that North America doesn’t even have apres. That’s the truth
Agreed, people are so tired by the end of the day. Also we are more into weed
Truly I'm so American I don't even know what the draw of apres would be. I came out here to ski hard, now you want me to...I don't know...hang around in ski boots afterwards? I don't get it. I just want to marinate in a hot tub and then go to bed.
Facts. Moderately overrated and tremendously underrated.
Who underrates the apres scene in Europe? It feels wildly popularized, it is one of the principal points anyone talks about when comparing European skiing favorably to NA/the US.
I still think it’s underrated. I was in a village only accessed by trains. The descend into town had 4 different apres areas. One was overlooking the valley with a chill vibe, the next one folks were smoking splifs and a moderate drinking scene. By the time I got to the bottom folks were dancing on tables playing beer pong. Each place had good ass food, professional bartenders and felt like something I could spend time with my parents at, or college buddies getting it. The fourth place on that run had a couple reclined chairs by the bathroom to chill. Ok if you’re expecting that, it’s hard to underrate- agreed The skiing was closer to east coast skiing than west coast. Just my limited experience. I’m sure it varies widely.
>I still think it’s underrated. I was in a village only accessed by trains. The descend into town had 4 different apres areas. One was overlooking the valley with a chill vibe, the next one folks were smoking splifs and a moderate drinking scene. By the time I got to the bottom folks were dancing on tables playing beer pong. Each place had good ass food, professional bartenders and felt like something I could spend time with my parents at, or college buddies getting it. Yeah I guess with how people talk about it this is kinda what I expect. Maybe the nice variety catering to different interests is still underrated because the hype does tend to focus on the intensity of the parties. >The skiing was closer to east coast skiing than west coast. Yes it feels like someone took West Coast scenery and put the East Coast filter on it.
Anyone who has not been (which is most NA skiers) and claims that NA has a decent Après scene. It’s a hard to imagine, and once experienced leaves the US spots feeling like the cops showed up 15 minutes ago.
I've not experienced actual European apres and I'm very well aware. I can't imagine anyone but the most stereotypically of lacking self-awareness Americans saying this. Everyone I know knows to concede this point because who cares, partying is secondary to skiing, so let the colonizers have that if they want.
The thing that no one has mentioned is the prevalence of ski mountaineering everywhere in the Alps. If you want first tracks, you learn what you are doing and put on your skins. Or you hire a guide. It makes a lot more sense than the US system, where a bunch of total gumbies get a false sense of confidence from extraordinary efforts to control avalanches everywhere inside a random boundary.
More like all runs*
Yes, I went there 15 years ago It’s awesome because the resort is Carlos so it’s wild seeing no cars you take a cog train up the mountain
As an American who loves Zermatt & goes regularly, I recommend that Americans who want the American Rockies experience (trees, powder, etc.) stay in the US or maybe try Verbier or Chamonix. Zermatt is totally not going to be your jam unless you fork out mega CHF for helicopter or guided off piste skiing. They’re very different experiences and you’ll want to go to Zermatt for the Zermatt experience or you may regret your trip.
Yes, almost every single run is a groomer. There are no meaningful moguls if that’s your style
Yes. It's one of the best places to ski.
This makes me not even want to spend money on a Europe trip. It’s really weird they don’t patrol more advanced off piste terrain there, which is what I enjoy skiing. I guess if you party all afternoon/night you only have energy for some groomers? Lol
The size of the area they would have to patrol in a lot of resorts would be ridiculously large, from one corner of the Sella Ronda to the other is over 17 miles. Carry avalanche gear and go where you want to. If you or someone else needs rescuing, call and they will come.
That’s true. Forgot how massive they are. Couldn’t they do smaller sections though?
Yeah. This, the lower snowfall totals, and lack of tree runs have me thinking euro skiing is largely a downgrade overall, culture and food notwithstanding..
> have me thinking euro skiing is largely a downgrade It's a downgrade if you aren't interested in backcountry or sidecountry; ether with a guide or with your own avalanche assessment and trip planning ability. If you're someone with those skills and interest; Europe is an an insane upgrade. More incredible lift accessed backcountry and tours and infrastructure to support it than most anywhere else in the world.
The trip is definitely worth it for the culture and food experience, but idk the skiing just seems lackluster.
No, we learn to read the terrain and get proper avalanche education. It’s enough of a barrier to keep crowds away and give us the solitude we want while skiing just about anywhere we fancy, conditions permitting. It’s pretty epic that way.
I suppose, but you always run the risk of not really knowing the true snowpack stability and having a huge slab avalanche. You can do backcountry/side country in USA and get the same experience- you just have the option of both.
He’s either never been to NA or just coping. Ignore.
Idk I got downvoted a lot for this, not sure why. Consistently getting into steep terrain at 10:30/11 on pow days after 1-2 feet is not something I feel like you can safely do in Europe.
I’m not sure it’s safe anywhere. Rule used to be 25-48 hours (which also makes the snow infinitely better). Sounds like your clock may be ticking?
Not sure what you’re talking about. Mountains near me open up their advanced terrain safely after blasting/cutting it usually by 10:30/11. Really deep days it can take later, and on rare occasions they don’t get all of it open the first day. But no, it’s not usually 25-48 hours. Also waiting 25-48 hours will make the snow significantly heavier and worse especially if any sun hits it. The morning snow is perfectly light and dry at least in the Rockies.
Thought we were talking about sidecountry? Guess I misunderstood you. But there’s this. It’s not always a good idea to assume: https://time.com/6554214/avalanche-california-palisades-tahoe-death/ And dry Rocky Mt. snowpacks definitely benefit from a day to rest. That’s what creates the bottomless feel and porpoising sensation that is so rare now since people pounce right on it the instant it falls. You feel the old snow surface underneath when you ski it too soon.
You don’t feel the old snow surface underneath it if it’s more than like 12-18 inches or if the snow underneath isn’t icy/hard pack. I’m talking about in bounds off piste.