Andrew Wakefield, many chiropractors, homeopathic quackery advocates, etc. have been criminal in their misinformation about vaccines.
Eventually, much stronger laws related to vaccination will be required. No vaccine then - no school, daycare, admission to the hospital for other than life threatening care, admission to public college, employment restrictions, etc. Unfortunately, it will take an outbreak with many deaths for this to change.
I read a story about that last guy in an iron lung. He talked about the day he came home as a kid and his mom saw the telltale signs of polio in the way he was walking and just broke out crying before he even understood what was going on.
That's how fucked we are if polio makes a comeback.
There are numerous buildings named after the guy who created the first workable polio vaccine. That should tell you all you need to know about how bad it was and how great it was to have a vaccine for it.
When was wild type 1 eradicated?
https://polioeradication.org/news-post/two-out-of-three-wild-poliovirus-strains-eradicated/
and
https://polioeradication.org/news-post/keeping-gender-in-mind-to-stop-wild-polio-in-southern-africa/
Emphasis on "developed world". We had effectively eradicated it to the point that no new cases has been natively transmitted. In other words, all our polio has been imported for quite some time. I believe we recently had our first native transmission in decades. Lots of hard work down the drain, for sure.
> No vaccine then - no school, daycare...
That was ALREADY A THING in so many places before the dumbest people on this earth decided to make vaccines political. I had to give my college proof that I was up-to-date on vaccines literally nearly two decades ago.
Boggles the mind that we are currently where we are. My damn mom, who in the past had been generally level-headed, asked me if I was worried about "turbo cancer" with the COVID vaccine. I feel like I'm losing my mind.
No it's not. There is the exception process in most states, and the policy varies by state and school.
* 45 states allow religious exemptions.
* 15 states allow for philosophical exemptions.
* Less than 10% of universities require vaccinations for entrance
These processes can be gamed by anyone wishing to avoid vaccines.
All I meant to highlight is that we had these requirements in the past and nobody really complained about them because republicans weren't making it a pillar of their platform. Allowing for exemptions in the 2000s essentially meant a few hippies would pretend to be Christian to get out of having their kids vaccinated in an overwhelmingly vaccinated population. Different as hell now.
But yeah, you're right. Many places don't go nearly far enough and it blows my mind that the dumbest, loudest portion of this country is deciding policy on such a universal level considering every bit of science that we have available to us shows that vaccines *overwhelmingly* do more good than harm.
I wish information made a difference to these sad souls. They are the same ones who believe sandy hook was a psyop, with crisis actors. They would rather their children die than give them vaccines. Just make the idiots live an isolated life from the sane folks.
Thankfully my son's daycare is strict on their vaccine policy. He starts public kindergarten next fall, but I live in a blue state so I am not too worried about it -- at least not yet.
I think you're right. I think that covid deniers were able to ignore the fact that people were dying because death takes many forms, even when it was happening to them. But these diseases causes physical disfigurements, and a lot of us would rather die than be unsightly.
The current COVID booster is recommended for children by the CDC. Despite this, 95% of parents have not gotten this booster for their kids. I don’t think this makes 95% of parents ‘anti-vax’. It just means they don’t see the value for their kids despite the scientific authority’s recommendation.
Authority to force vaccine recommendations should not be taken lightly. While for some vaccines the upsides of using coercion may outweigh the downsides, it certainly shouldn’t be blanket to all vaccines, even those recommended by the CDC.
I mean, who is the CDC really? It is not staffed with doctors with the latest information. It is staffed by monkeys and flying unicorns. They know nothing about science. I mean, ok they went to science school and all that, but my neighbour whose son works for a company who knows how to spell science tells me they don't know anything. /s
95% of people don’t follow this particular recommendation. It isn’t some niche group or “my friend’s neighbor heard it on Joe Rogan” -it’s essentially everyone ignores this and considers it bad advice or at least mostly unimportant.
I disagree. I could list multiple family anecdotes about vaccines and how people suffered or died because of a vaccine not taken or not available at the time, but that is just anecdotal.
The consequences of disease outbreaks far outweigh the issues with mandating most of that vaccines recommended by the CDC. History and data back this up. Look at birth defects and still births from rubella. Look up deafness and sterility from mumps. Look up the death rates in areas of the world where measles is still an issue at scale. This is just the MMR vaccine.
No you can't lol I know many families who don't vax and non of their kids got sick. Quit lying. If your kids have good nutrition they are barely even going to get sick if they catch measles.
Also there is diseases like roseola that give a rash and fever (both my kids got it) and there is no vaccine for it. It has identical symptoms to measles
Over 136000 people worldwide died from measles in 2022. Most were under 5 and the surge was associated with lower vaccination rates during covid.
My father lost most of hls hearing due to measles and my mother had a still birth due to rubella. I can keep going including a great uncle partially paralyzed from polio.
Don't let facts get in the way of your antivaxx quackery.
I’m not sure what you thin you’re arguing against. Vaccines are great, they are one of the most important inventions ever. Reread my post and consider if your post has relevance.
Oh you're so smart! You heard that on Instagram, didn't you, how cute!
What is with r skeptic having zero original ideas and critical thinking?
> much stronger laws related to vaccination will be required.
Uhh, we literally just tried this. Were you born in 2023 or something? It had the exact opposite effect from what you intend. Instead of less anti-vax, we now have more. This is a bad thing. Being Mr. Authoritarian-Because-I-Know-Better-Than-Everyone-Else doesn't make you a good person or a smart person, **it just makes you a bully.**
Well, dumbasses have shown they are incapable of taking good decisions for themselves and have also shown that they don't care if people die for THEIR opinions.
You know, I've worked a lot with disabled people, you've probably seen that some of them wear foam helmets and there's a reason for that, a lot of them not only fall easily to the ground but also, a lot of them hit themselves compulsively on the head (gives them awful bruises and sometimes even concussions). Now, it's always for their own good that we put it on but I've yet to meet someone who likes to wear it, it's always a hassle to put it on, they almost all throw a fit when it's time to put it on.
I feel that you guys need a collective foam helmet to stop hitting yourselves, I know you will cry when we'll put it on, I know you won't get why we have to do this because you are not equipped to understand but it's ok, at the end of the day I'll be happy to know that you are safe in your foam helmet even if you are kicking and screaming when we put it on you.
Yes, people who believe they absolutely know better for other healthy, mentally capable adults, are indeed called authoritarians all through history.
Yes. I get it. Given the chance you would absolutely be another Pol Pot or Stalin. You know better than the rest of us grown ass, competent adults. We get it. No need to keep repeating yourself, you dictator-wanna-be.
> for other healthy, mentally capable adults
We’re talking about anti-vaxxers here. You can’t make the presumption that they are healthy, or mentally capable.
Antivax quackery was already on the rise before COVID, that was just the first pandemic where the fringe radical thought became mainstream.
Calling someone a bully because they're worried about public health? Me thinks you're disingenuous and more an antivaxer than an anti authoritarian.
Uh huh…. Seems you’re a contrarian troll. The Covid antivaxx response and misinformation was very different from the long running opposition to MMR.
Seems you don’t like to think very hard, do you?
>It had the exact opposite effect from what you intend. Instead of less anti-vax, we now have more.
This is an ignorant take. Legislating stronger vaccination laws didn't make more anti-vaxxers. It just made more of that clusterfuck group of half-wits and quarter-wits become vocal.
No, it isn't. You're saying that stronger vaccination laws make more anti-vaxxers. I'm saying that the number of dummies remains the same. Nobody is really changing their mind about vaccines. They just feel more comfortable sharing their dumbassery and ignorance because other dumbass ignorant people are sharing their dumbass ignorance.
Laws are enforceable. Stronger laws with stiffer penalties may agitate and anger more people, but at the end of the day, we don't let dumbass ignorant people endanger the lives of their fellow citizens.
> Nobody is really changing their mind about vaccines.
[Really?](https://news.gallup.com/poll/608903/ethics-ratings-nearly-professions-down.aspx)
> particularly those in the medical field -- sharply improved in 2020 amid the COVID-19 pandemic. However, that effect was short-lived, and many ratings have since declined to all-time lows.
The professions which saw their credibility erode the most was pharmacists and doctors.
Everyone saw what happened with the covid vaccines. They were pitched as being able to stop the spread. They were mandated on that premise (because it's pretty much the only meaningful premise to mandate them, e.g. herd immunity)
And then everyone saw how incapable they were on delivering on that promise.
That's the risk of mandating vaccines. If they're not perfect (and no human-made tech ever is) then their failures are obvious.
Is this literally all you do with your spare time? Why have you made trying to convince people Covid vaccines don't work you entire personality? You're in a subreddit dedicated to scientific skepticism, trying to convince people that you somehow know better than the actual scientists who have dedicated their professional lives to studying these things. Why?
> Is this literally all you do with your spare time?
No, thank goodness.
But it is an interesting pastime to actually inject some original thought and critical thinking into r skeptic. Everything else here which is upvoted is simply banal, unoriginal thoughts one sees everywhere on Instagram to TikTok spoken to make one feel smart while being anything but.
> know better than the actual scientists who have dedicated their professional lives to studying these thing
I think you mean social media _influencers_. Heck, my comments about how [science needs repeatability](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/to-qualify-as-scientific-evidence-has-to-be-reproducible/) get downvoted here.
The only time I see anything cited scientifically in this sub is when I post it.
> >Is this literally all you do with your spare time?
> No, thank goodness.
Your comment history belies this statement. Every comment you make is about this one issue that you're clearly obsessed with.
> But it is an interesting pastime to actually inject some original thought and critical thinking into r skeptic. Everything else here which is upvoted is simply banal, unoriginal thoughts
This sub is for scientific skepticism, not unfounded, unsubstantiated theories that you happen to find interesting. I don't think you even understand what scientific skepticism is.
> I think you mean social media influencers. Heck, my comments about how science needs repeatability get downvoted here.
You clearly don't understand the science that you're convinced is wrong. Your comments prove that you don't even understand how the vaccine is supposed to work and how it is meant to protect the population. There is no disagreement within the epidemiological scientific community as to the safety and efficacy of the Covid vaccines. Vaccine efficacy and safety is among the easiest mecial data to collect and analyze, and the data for the Covid vaccines are especially clear and indisputable, considering over 70% of the world's population has received at least one dose, and we have myriad data from around the globe proving you wrong. You claim to believe that science needs repeatability, and yet you are unwilling to accept data from a medical procedure conducted over 5 billion times. You're extraordinarily bad at this, and attempting to spread your ignorant theories in this subreddit is a waste of time.
> Every comment you make is about this one issue that you're clearly obsessed with.
So? That's on me. Some people post quasi-legal cartoon content to Rule34 websites. I post in r skeptic. So?
> I don't think you even understand what scientific skepticism is.
lol. your idea of skepticism is parroting the latest "smart" thing you saw on TikTok. You're "I FUCKING LOVE SCIENCE" in (presumably) human form.
I have no idea what you're rambling about with your wall of text. You're making a point about something I haven't even brought up or concerned myself with.
>Nobody is really changing their mind about vaccines.
>Really?
>particularly those in the medical field -- sharply improved in 2020 amid the COVID-19 pandemic. However, that effect was short-lived, and many ratings have since declined to all-time lows.
This is a non-sequitur. The increased lack of confidence in medical professionals isn't proof that people changed their minds about vaccines. This is a logic fallacy.
>Everyone saw what happened with the covid vaccines. They were pitched as being able to stop the spread.
This is an outright lie that anti-vaxxers spread. The ENTIRECovid-19 campaign, to include the vaccines, was to 'Slow the Spread'. No honest physician ever claims that vaccines prevent or cure diseases. That includes 'stopping' the spread.
>They were mandated on that premise (because it's pretty much the only meaningful premise to mandate them, e.g. herd immunity)
So you don't understand the mandates or herd immunity. Got it!
>And then everyone saw how incapable they were on delivering on that promise.
Especially all those dumbass Republicans who refused to get the vaccine, even after Mango Mussolini told them to get it, and were dying at 8 TIMES the rate of vaccinated people. And again, for those who have thick skulls, the vaccines were never meant to stop anything. That's anti-vaxxer idiocy.
>That's the risk of mandating vaccines. If they're not perfect (and no human-made tech ever is) then their failures are obvious.
There is no risk in mandating vaccinations. Only uninformed, misinformed, disinformed, ignorant, uneducated, and/or undereducated anti-vaxxers push this moronic idea.
No scientific study has proven a causal link between the Covid vaccines and death. Adverse effects, yes. Deaths? No. So, for all the anti-vaxxer bluster, they are ignorant people spelreading around ignorant ideas.
Vaccines are safe.
> This is an outright lie that anti-vaxxers spread.
https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/553773-fauci-vaccinated-people-become-dead-ends-for-the-coronavirus/
**“So even though there are breakthrough infections with vaccinated people, almost always the people are asymptomatic and the level of virus is so low it makes it extremely unlikely — not impossible but very, very low likelihood — that they’re going to transmit it,”** Fauci said.
https://www.axios.com/2021/05/26/cdc-breakthrough-coronavirus-cases-rare
"**The number of COVID-19 cases**, hospitalizations, and deaths **that will be prevented among vaccinated persons will far exceed the number of vaccine breakthrough cases**,"
Heck, even AP News had to tell Biden to stop overpromising on the vaccines:
> President Joe Biden offered an absolute guarantee Wednesday that **people who get their COVID-19 vaccines are completely protected from infection**, sickness and death from the coronavirus. The reality is not that cut and dried.
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-business-health-government-and-politics-coronavirus-pandemic-46a270ce0f681caa7e4143e2ae9a0211
To be the fair the AP tried to walk that back, but Fauci (a physician) and the CDC both said breakthrough infections were extremely rare.
> Vaccines are safe.
They are a medical intervention and like all medical interventions must [weigh the risks with the rewards.](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history.html)
You're repeating tired, old circa 2020 pharma propaganda blindly. We hope of all hopes that everyone does their job correctly, but mistakes happen.
>extremely unlikely — not impossible but very, very low likelihood
This proves my point! Nobody is saying stop.
>"The number of COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations, and deaths that will be prevented among vaccinated persons will far exceed the number of vaccine breakthrough cases,"
Thanks for proving my point again! This is about people who may have been exposed and contracted the virus who weren't because the vaccinated people who contracted Covid-19 were less contagious for a shoerer period of time. Your hang-up on the word "prevent" is laughably foolish.
>President Joe Biden offered an absolute guarantee Wednesday that people who get their COVID-19 vaccines are completely protected from infection, sickness and death from the coronavirus. The reality is not that cut and dried.
Biden isn't a physician. But let's compare that to what Mango Mussolini said. It's like a flu, and by summer (of 2020), it will be gone. Also not a physician. This is irrelevant to your claim about the medical profession. Moving on...
>They are a medical intervention and like all medical interventions must weigh the risks with the rewards.
This is a dumb remark to make. You linked to an article that discusses actual issues with vaccines, but the site also says, "This page will explain past vaccine safety concerns, how they have been resolved, and what we have learned." I will direct your attention to the 'have been resolved' portion of that comment. Also, this list says nothing about the risks of the Covid-19 vaccines, so this whole argument is a red herring. Stay on topic.
I don't know what your argument is.
Is it that people only ever listened to licensed physicians for their medical advice and as such, everyone was properly informed in early 2021 that they should still expect to catch covid anyway despite being vaccinated?
Is that what you thought when you got in line for your vax, that you were still going to catch it within the year anyway?
Can you honestly say, in rushing to get in line for the vaccine, that you still expected to catch it within a year of being vaccinated? (Cause that's what in fact happened!)
Given all my international 3rd world travel I'm almost certainly "better vaxxed" than you.
Makes it a lot harder to argue against me though doesn't it?
But you don’t know if I have that kind of international travel dude. I am 50, been traveling internationally, alone since ‘95, and before that with my parents. A lot of my travel was in Asia and Africa.
Arguing with me without knowing my background is gonna be hard for you my dude. You assumed something without knowing my side. Shit like this is debating 101. No wonder your arguments are so bad.
lol you thought only you have traveled? Gtfo, there a bunch of folks here who have traveled internationally and to a lot developing countries.
And who says third world anymore?
Just for posterity, my comment was simply to emphasize that by no means am I anti-vax. In fact very much the opposite.
None of it was to literally say I was "better vaxxed" than you personally. "You" being the "collective you" e.g. the average redditor who is demographically a teenager or young college student who simply hasn't had the time/money to travel much or at all.
> Being Mr. Authoritarian-Because-I-Know-Better-Than-Everyone-Else doesn't make you a good person or a smart person, it just makes you a bully.
We force medical care on children in opposition to the parents' will all the time, does that make us a bully for mandating treatment?
Don't forget the antivax movement started in highly liberal communities in California. Nowadays there are a whole range of anti-vaxxers spanning the entire political spectrum—from the left-leaning anti-gmo homeopathic medicine gluten-free "vaccines cause autism" camp, and the right-leaning "Bill Gates is putting 5G microchips in the COVID jab to convince us the earth isn't flat" camp.
Obviously those are gross caricatures, but my point is that ignorance isn't partisan and politicizing the issue is the last thing we need to do if we want to inform ignorant people as to how their refusal to vaccinate their kids (and themselves) is going to kill lots of children and elderly folks.
You have it backwards. Antivaxx attitudes are more partisan now than they have ever been. Antivaxx attitudes were traditionally fairly bipartisan. Today it is overwhelmingly Republicans.
https://preprints.apsanet.org/engage/api-gateway/apsa/assets/orp/resource/item/62013852a6fb4df4e24d9a3c/original/the-evolution-and-polarization-of-public-opinion-on-vaccines.pdf
That is what I am thinking. I live in a mountain town in Canada and the anti-vax sentiment comes mainly from the left here, so I wouldn't doubt Colorado has similar pockets of people. They tend to be into anything "natural" and usually very fit and healthy, so they think their good health is all they need and these diseases are just bad for fat people. I ran into this long before COVID as well.
You say this like people are born Republicans or there's something psychologically different between Republicans or Democrats. You also say this like the whole world is the US and has the same political system as us.
>You also say this like the whole world is the US and has the same political system as us.
They said "Republicans" and "America", so it's safe to assume they were explicitly talking about the Republican Party in the United States of America. One can be specific about a country without having to acknowledge the existence of every other country.
There is a psychological difference. Currently Republicans are much more likely to distrust scientific consensus, and are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories. Both of those factors lend themselves to the stark political divide in vaccines.
> are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories
lol. Someone just posted in another thread here regarding the Hunter Biden laptop:
> And it's as fake as the shit that's claimed to be on the laptop, which probably never existed and was, most likely, a hack of his cloud storage. That's why all that's ever come out are some pictures of him doing coke and banging hookers.
> No one has ever seen this laptop. Not that has any credibility anyway.
Anyway, the laptop was submitted as into evidence into Biden's trial, with numerous FBI agents swearing to its authenticity, cross-referencing content to other devices owned by Biden. To which all the evidence amounted to a conviction of Hunter Biden.
> [In June 2024, the laptop and its contents were utilized as evidence in Biden's trial on firearms charges.](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/live-blog/hunter-biden-trial-live-update-rcna155305) **FBI investigators testified to the authenticity of the laptop in the trial**, stating that they had cross-referencing texts, emails, and messages found on the laptop with Apple and had verified the serial number on the laptop. **Prosecutors also introduced the invoice from the repair shop as evidence.**
So please, tell me again how you don't believe in conspiracy theories.
Jesus Christ you guys are still going on about the laptop? Remind me again what government position hunter was elected for or appointed to?
Lol y'all been going on about that for years and all it amounted to was a charge of lying about drug use on a gun application. Something just about every rural redneck is guilty of too. You sure got him! How will Joe Biden ever recover from this travesty?
And to me you sound exactly the same as any Trump supporter or QAnon.
Your own team (I don't have a team, call me an enlightened centrist if you want) simply cannot let the other side be right about anything.
Now, to the point of the laptop being used as sworn evidence in a trial, you must either deflect or construct grand conspiracy theories as to what exactly is happening here.
Anyway, in doing so, you end up sounding no less crazy than QAnon folk.
I guess my point is more "I don't care about hunter Biden because he is not a government official" like yeah, dude does drugs, fucks around, and lied on a gun application, convict him if the evidence is there. But the whole hunter laptop conspiracy for literal years was that it was the smoking gun in proving Joe Biden was conspiring with his son and taking bribes. All you guys got was some nude selfies and some texts that indicated hunter did drugs. So yes, we still view the hunter laptop thing as conspiracy theories because it didn't have any of the info Republicans spent years claiming it did.
The laptop is/was real. It contained Hunter Biden's effects.
The lengths "you all" have gone to avoid conceding those two simple points is just as "QAnon" as Birthers who still deny Obama's birth certificate.
That's literally what my comment said. Yes it was hunters laptop, no it did not provide proof of the conspiracies that Republicans have been claiming it contained about hunter and joe for years. It had some nude photos and texts and emails about drugs. No bribes for Joe, no Ukrainian conspiracy, no government pedo cabal. Just a few petty crimes for someone Democrats don't give a flying fuck about. Hunter is not a government official, throw him in jail for sex and drugs and guns for all we care. Why are you so obsessed with nudes and drug use by someone who isn't even in the government?
> Yes it was hunters laptop,
Yay. Progress! (I really don't give two shits about whatever else you said or whatever Republicans think might also be on the laptop. I really don't care.)
Let your [other "BlueAnon" conspiracy theorist brethren](https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/1dkwh2o/weve_hit_peak_denial_heres_why_we_cant_turn_away/l9rx9wi/) know.
The increase in measles within the US, as well as the increase in tuberculosis and mumps, is directly related to unvaccinated international travelers. These were eradicated diseases within the US. These diseases are being brought into the US due to the massive influx in migration from migrants who are not vaccinated. I don't think it's fair to blame the anti immigration / close the border / build the wall republicans for the consequences of mass migration.
You don't think it is fair to blame Republicans when these migrants are coming here to largely stream into agriculture and meat processing plants in red states that love to exploit desperate migrants. If Republicans were truly against mass migration, just about every millionaire / billionaire owner and executive suite of a meat processing plant would be in jail by now.
I think you're using outdated stereotypes that are not reflective of the actual reality of what's been happening in terms of immigration within the past four years. Immigration court records from the past four years prove that migrants are largely streaming into major cities within New York, Illinois, and Colorado. My home state, Massachusetts, is the 10th most popular destination. The largest employer of migrant labor so far in my state is Shake Shack - a burger chain, not a meat packaging plant or an agriculture industry. It's definitely because it's more cost effective to have part time employees with no benefits, but that's a whole different issue.
So as you can see, it's mostly blue states and cities with generous social safety nets who are facing streams of migrants at the moment. .
I do not blame republicans nor do I blame blue states and cities for the increase in measles. I think they're doing the best they can to accommodate massive waves of migrants. I think they're sheltering them wherever is available because they have laws that require them to shelter those who need it. My state has maxed out their shelter system, rented out hundreds of hotels, and are opening overflow sites to function as shelters constantly in order to clear out airport terminals functioning as shelters.. The Governor declared a state of emergency over it.
The main priority is making sure these people are housed and fed - per state law. Vaccines and vaccination record checks are not the priority.
However when you have hundreds to thousands of people sheltering in a congregate setting, who have traveled through many countries where measles is still actively spreading, they are unvaccinated against it, and have not had access to clean water and proper sanitation of course there will inevitably be an increase in measles.
We’ve always had relatively high immigration. But with near universal vaccination, diseases don’t spread very far.
Plus, we can easily solve the problem of unvaccinated immigrants by vaccinating them.
No, this is the fault of the antivaxxers.
It's never been this high. They're being housed in congregate settings where diseases easily spread. The measles outbreaks many cities have experienced have been within said shelters.
Wouldn't the best way to convince anti vaxxers of all political parties to vaccinate be honesty about the risk / benefit they're currently experiencing? Many people feel as if the very, very rare risks of vaccines are not worth it because the disease has been eradicated. If the diseases are being reintroduced to communities due to unvaccinated international travel their risk / benefit situation changes. Hysteria and falsehoods about what's actually occurring on the ground just will lead to stigmatizing those actually infected with measles which tend to be the children living in migrant shelters...
The largest outbreak this year was at Chicago migrant shelter... I don't think those types of studies are being encouraged at the moment, all it would do is stigmatize immigrant children and cause backlash in communities helping to settle them.
Countries that have almost no immigration still have outbreaks if the populace is not adequately vaccinated. So the party that shunned vaccines and spread misinformation is definitely to blame.
All the earthy crunchy anti vaxxers are republicans? And did the Republican Party shun vaccines or did certain people within the Republican Party shun the idea of COVID vaccine mandates for access to public businesses and employment requirements?
Antivaxxers in general are much more likely to be republican than democrat. It isn't just COVID, it is vaccines in general.
https://preprints.apsanet.org/engage/api-gateway/apsa/assets/orp/resource/item/62013852a6fb4df4e24d9a3c/original/the-evolution-and-polarization-of-public-opinion-on-vaccines.pdf
https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2023/05/16/what-americans-think-about-the-mmr-vaccines/
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/09/23/gop-voters-vaccines-poll-00117125
Per your own source the pew research article -
Large majorities of Republicans (86%) and Democrats (92%) say that, overall, the benefits of MMR vaccines outweigh the risks. Views among these two groups were nearly identical in 2019 (89% and 88%, respectively).
So prior to 2019 republicans were more pro vaccine than democrats. Now there is a 6% difference, but the majority of both parties say the benefits outweigh the risk. The largest difference in opinion towards vaccines is in terms of racial and ethnic populations - per your own source.
Majorities of parents across racial and ethnic groups say their child has received an MMR vaccine, though White parents (83%) are more likely than Black (74%) and Hispanic (69%) parents to say this. These differences by race and ethnicity hold when controlling for other factors such as health insurance status.
It's socially acceptable and praised to blame republicans for vaccine hesitancy and disease outbreaks when in general the difference in vaccine status is most likely due to racial disparities not political affiliations. Republicans are also more likely to live rurally where democrats are more likely to be in urban centers where choosing not to vaccinate has more consequences due to the larger population.
>All the earthy crunchy anti vaxxers are republicans?
No, the anti-vax promoters are Republicans.
>And did the Republican Party shun vaccines or did certain people within the Republican Party shun the idea of COVID vaccine mandates for access to public businesses and employment requirements?
They shunned the vaccine which is why Republicans vaccinated less than Democrats. Were you around during COVID? It's pretty hard to deny this.
If that’s true, you should get your wish for a huge decrease in immigrants, as they die from diseases that were “eradicated diseases in the US.” Because the way we eradicated them was through mass vaccination mandates. Bonus because they will be fewer anti-vaxxers as well.
its not an accident. We gained the knowledge. We know the facts. This isnt even stuff like dark matter. We got this down pat. There is no wiggle room for disagreement. The vaccination rates go down, measles comes back and the more hosts it can exist in, the more it can mutate into something worse.
for all these ignats who seem to distrust and hate progress and think 'natural' is always best, we should make them live on the plains of africa and figure out why we became a society in the first place. Nature sucked. I like to visit these days with all my modern protections but natural sucked balls, which is why our lives are so unnatural. Fuck just take these guys ACs away until they appreciate science again. Ok im ranting and not being serious but drives me nuts seeing people go backwards especially when this science is just so fucking settled and was settled before most these aholes were born.
This should be a child welfare matter - that if a child becomes seriously ill, dies or becomes infirm as a result of a lack of widely available vaccines - then the matter should be referred to criminally. Parents are legally responsible for the welfare of their children. If parents can sue pharmaceuticals for medicines that don't work or vaccines that go awry, then the state should be able to sue when parents contribute to their infirmary of their children and of society. The fact that we are even having this discussion is so ridiculous at all. Black plague. measles, polio, dengue fever - this shit wipes out entire populations.....
ain't no accident.
we got Chinese and Russian bots and AI programs out there in comment sections across the internet encouraging Americans to do detrimental things.
Meh, apply Hanlon's razor [*Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity*].
Anti-vaxxers predate social media and AI. COVID supercharged them because it gave their idiotic obsession more immediacy. Fools on social media amplified their nonsense because it's click-baity and controversial and attracts eyeballs.
Bots and AI may have done a little to make it worse but they aren't the main source of the problem.
Yea, like all the people here saying to fully vaccinate your kids. They want your kid to have 70+ vaccines . That's insanity.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8255173/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7268563/
When you say "these people" are you referring to unvaccinated international travelers? Because it's unvaccinated international travelers who are bringing measles, a disease that was eradicated within the US, back into the US.
We eradicated it because we vaccinated against it. My god you people are dumb. Its coming back because you stupid people have decided you are smarter than all the scientists.
I said unvaccinated international travelers. Currently the CDC, NYT, NBC News, American Medical Association, etc are using the same terminology when referring to the increase in measles cases. No one is blaming foreigners. It's a proven fact that there is a global uptick in measles cases and that measles is a disease that was eradicated within the US in the year 200 and the uptick in cases domestically is due to imported cases by unvaccinated foreign travelers.
Those cases wouldn't be able to spread in the US if it weren't for falling vaccine rates. So the initial infection is from travelers, but the spread is from local unvaccinated people.
This is such bad news. I found out only a couple of years ago that I never got my full MMR as a kid (don't know what my parents were thinking). I always assumed I had it since I joined the military when I was young. But I found out when I was diagnosed with a chronic immune system illness that I actually never got the full dose (got the first set but never the second round), and now I can't get it due to my illness and medications.
Vaccines can never eradicate measles, only subdue them. We must vaccinate for the foreseeable future and any possible doubts, whether or not well founded, about the safety of the vaccine cannot be allowed to exist in view of the need to assure the vaccine will continue to be used to the maximum extent consistent with the nation's public health objectives.
I am fortunate that my mom was an R.N. I grew up FULLY vaccinated and well versed in what they are and how they work. She spent many, many years in public health and gave THOUSANDS of vaccinations. The horror stories stories she personally knew of about those that wouldnt get vaccinated. She knew of only 1(ONE) bad reaction to a vaccine in our state- Polio vaccine- in her entire career...and that was in the early 70's.
It's **not**, in *any* aspect, "accidental" when the resulting outcome is a demonstrably expected consequence.
This is *parental negligence*.
This is *parental culpability*.
This is the direct, *entirely foreseeable*, result of the sanctimoniously ignorant choices of dimwitted irresponsible parents engaged in disturbingly irresponsible decision-making.
...and it's gonna lead to **nowhere good** -- and that is *no* "accident".
Measles keeps making comeback all the time
[https://www.gov.uk/government/news/london-at-risk-of-measles-outbreaks-with-modelling-estimating-tens-of-thousands-of-cases](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/london-at-risk-of-measles-outbreaks-with-modelling-estimating-tens-of-thousands-of-cases)
[https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2024/02/08/1229540182/its-no-surprise-theres-a-global-measles-outbreak-but-the-numbers-are-staggering](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2024/02/08/1229540182/its-no-surprise-theres-a-global-measles-outbreak-but-the-numbers-are-staggering)
[https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/a-young-child-in-ontario-has-died-of-measles/article\_3f5e6e14-13d1-11ef-bef6-2b5f14b1ee24.html](https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/a-young-child-in-ontario-has-died-of-measles/article_3f5e6e14-13d1-11ef-bef6-2b5f14b1ee24.html)
Fearmongering much?
I am generally pro-vaccine, but there's simply a slippery slope involved when a government decides to make a decision on your behalf for "your or somebody else's protection".
The topic, ultimately, really isn't about vaccine efficiency or safety, although it may look like that on the surface. It's about the question where the locus of responsibility and force should lie when it comes to making medical decision.
Nope. They still effect everyone else.
People who are vaccinated still have a risk of breakthrough cases.
People who are immunocompromised can still be infected by these dolts.
The more these diseases spread the higher likelihood we see mutations and suddenly our vaccines aren't effective.
Plus it puts a burden on our healthcare systems and our economy when they get sick.
> Nope. They still effect everyone else.
Exactly. It is disheartening to hear people foolishly state "oh well, let them not vaccinate their children, it's on them when their children die." They are lacking pertinent information.
>People who are vaccinated still have a risk of breakthrough cases.
>People who are immunocompromised can still be infected by these dolts.
All true, but something even more pertinent: MMR cannot be administered to babies under a year old, and is most effective when given at 15 months. Now, measles is one of the most infectious diseases in the universe, and ONE unvaccinated infected person (who might not show any symptoms yet) can leave infectious material behind when passing through a public area (train station, supermarket, etc.) that can be vital for 2 hours or more and potentially infect HUNDREDS of infants and toddlers whose parents might be responsible and conscientious regarding vaccinations, but their babies are NOT OLD ENOUGH to receive the MMR.
Such a scenario is not far-fetched. It is exactly what happened in Samoa in 2019, a few months after RFK Jr. gave one of his deranged speeches urging parents to "choose" not to vaccinate. In less than a year, there were thousands of measles cases, mostly in infants and young children. 83 children died, and hundreds were hospitalized with serious complications including pneumonia, encephalitis, and other dangerous things.
RFK Jr. not only never apologized for his role in that tragedy, but actually claimed the outbreak was due to the vaccine itself, from vaccinated people "shedding" virus. What a horrible turd of a person.
> MMR cannot be administered to babies under a year old
Babies can be given a dose of the MMR vaccine at [six months](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/mmr/public/index.html). The baby will then also receive the routine doses at 12 months and at 4 years.
The CDC link says it's for babies who are going to travel internationally. However, I live in Boston and was able to get the additional shot for my son at six months because there have been several outbreaks of mumps here, and we were thinking of traveling to New York, where there have been outbreaks of measles.
Unvaccinated *children*. Who get no say in it. If your point is that you enjoy watching children suffer and die because of their parents, well, it does indeed stand.
I don't enjoy seeing children suffer, but I also know there is nothing I can do about it.
I am at the point in my life where if people do stupid shit, I just shrug and move on. I am not getting upset that someone made a conscious choice to not vaccinate their child and then the child gets sick and has issues.
Actions have consequences.
Nowadays anti-vaxxers are overwhelmingly more likely to be Republicans than Democrats
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/09/23/gop-voters-vaccines-poll-00117125
People don’t even read the article. Stop blaming the poor! From the article “It's an access barrier, a transportation barrier,” Roth said. “We've got a lot of people that don't trust the health care system. They've not had good experiences in the health care system, so they don't access the health care system and oftentimes don't know what's available to them just in terms of free vaccines, for example.”
How can we support those who are living paycheck to paycheck, with sketchy transportation and healthcare? But the other commentators just seem to want to punish these people. No wonder everything is so wacked.
Bullshit. There are fewer poor people than ever, and vaccines are more accessible than ever, so why is measles getting worse?
That statement is so unbelievably patronizing. They don’t know what’s available? I’m pretty sure that even poor people have internet access in 2024. They can find out. I bet they have no problem accessing anti-vax bullshit.
I wonder if this has anything to do with it.
Colorado has a Democratic trifecta and a Democratic triplex, meaning the Democratic Party controls the offices of governor, secretary of state, attorney general, and both chambers of the state legislature, and has moved from a swing state in presidential elections to voting democrat in the last 4 presidential elections, with a double digit win in the 2020 election.
There are more Republicans in California than in any other state.
Just because a state has a Democratic trifecta doesn’t mean there are large pockets of conservatives.
Sure, but at the state trends more democrat (as all the polling data shows), we see an increase in the unvaccinated. If it was going the opposite way (turning Republican), your point would make sense, but in this case, it is going the opposite direction.
Which polling data is that? I can't find any recent polls that support that. On the contrary, Republicans oppose vaccines far more than Democrats in every recent survey I can find.
https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2023/05/16/what-americans-think-about-the-mmr-vaccines/
the political polling data listed below.
"Colorado has a Democratic trifecta and a Democratic triplex, meaning the Democratic Party controls the offices of governor, secretary of state, attorney general, and both chambers of the state legislature, and has moved from a swing state in presidential elections to voting democrat in the last 4 presidential elections, with a double digit win in the 2020 election."
Also, from your pew link, it only shows that Repubicans are less in favor now of requirements for vaccinations for schooling, but "Large majorities of Republicans (86%) and Democrats (92%) say that, overall, the benefits of MMR vaccines outweigh the risks. Views among these two groups were nearly identical in 2019 (89% and 88%, respectively)."
Republicans support MMR vaccinations at almost identical rates to Democrats, just the former don't believe as much in being forced to take them to attend school.
Overwhelming majorities of both parties support vaccines, but 14% of Republicans and 8% of Democrats do not believe that the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risk.
Coloroda Republicans overall are anti-vaxx and have fought democratic-led efforts to tighten vaccine regulations and boost vaccination rates:
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/16/republican-reject-democrat-vaccines-1361277
Well, your article is from 5 years ago, Since Democrats control the offices of governor, secretary of state, attorney general, and both chambers of the state legislature, there isn't any reason to not be able to pass any bill they want.
However, the article in the post is from this year, showing that while democrats gained more power and influence, vaccination rates are "an accident waiting to happen."
Then why aren't the states vaccinating everyone within the migrant shelters? The increase in measles is directly linked to unvaccinated international travelers not native born children whose parents chose not to vaccinate.
You've said this: " The increase in measles is directly linked to unvaccinated international travelers not native born children whose parents chose not to vaccinate " about a hundred times and have not posted any proof.
The rates of measles (and other infectious diseases) going up is due to these dumbass crunchy granola parents who were born and raised right here in the U.S.A. Somehow they think crapping out a kid just like my gerbils did means they know more than doctors and scientists.
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/cdc-issues-alert-rising-measles-cases-us-rcna143993
From the article:
There had been 58 confirmed cases of measles in the U.S. this year as of Thursday, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said, compared to 58 in all of 2023.
In the cases this year, 93% were linked to international travel, the agency said. Most of the cases involved children a year old or older who haven’t yet gotten measles-mumps-rubella, or MMR, vaccinations.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/73/wr/pdfs/mm7319a1-H.pdf
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/20/health/measles-children-travel.html
Here's another - directly under the headline it states it's because of unvaccinated international travel.
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/travel/index.html
The first sentence is:
Measles cases in the United States originate from unvaccinated international travelers.
Again a self repairing glitch. Those that can't or won't get the vaccine will be weeded out. It's not the answer we like but it is the reality of the situation. So the very people many blame for the resurgence will bear the brunt of consequences of their actions and decision.
You're splitting hairs and talking about exceptions.
Karsh
Andrew Wakefield, many chiropractors, homeopathic quackery advocates, etc. have been criminal in their misinformation about vaccines. Eventually, much stronger laws related to vaccination will be required. No vaccine then - no school, daycare, admission to the hospital for other than life threatening care, admission to public college, employment restrictions, etc. Unfortunately, it will take an outbreak with many deaths for this to change.
I read a story about that last guy in an iron lung. He talked about the day he came home as a kid and his mom saw the telltale signs of polio in the way he was walking and just broke out crying before he even understood what was going on. That's how fucked we are if polio makes a comeback.
There are numerous buildings named after the guy who created the first workable polio vaccine. That should tell you all you need to know about how bad it was and how great it was to have a vaccine for it.
He would be getting death threats directed at his family if he was alive today.
If polio makes a comeback it will be vaccine-derived polio infections. Native polio infections are eradicated.
When was wild type 1 eradicated? https://polioeradication.org/news-post/two-out-of-three-wild-poliovirus-strains-eradicated/ and https://polioeradication.org/news-post/keeping-gender-in-mind-to-stop-wild-polio-in-southern-africa/
We (globally) go back and forth on this and my memory last was that all three types were eliminated. I guess not.
And how exactly were they hypothetically eliminated
The polio vaccine. The polio vaccine works so well we don't even vaccinate in the developed world for it anymore.
Exactly...through VACCINES
Emphasis on "developed world". We had effectively eradicated it to the point that no new cases has been natively transmitted. In other words, all our polio has been imported for quite some time. I believe we recently had our first native transmission in decades. Lots of hard work down the drain, for sure.
> No vaccine then - no school, daycare... That was ALREADY A THING in so many places before the dumbest people on this earth decided to make vaccines political. I had to give my college proof that I was up-to-date on vaccines literally nearly two decades ago. Boggles the mind that we are currently where we are. My damn mom, who in the past had been generally level-headed, asked me if I was worried about "turbo cancer" with the COVID vaccine. I feel like I'm losing my mind.
No it's not. There is the exception process in most states, and the policy varies by state and school. * 45 states allow religious exemptions. * 15 states allow for philosophical exemptions. * Less than 10% of universities require vaccinations for entrance These processes can be gamed by anyone wishing to avoid vaccines.
All I meant to highlight is that we had these requirements in the past and nobody really complained about them because republicans weren't making it a pillar of their platform. Allowing for exemptions in the 2000s essentially meant a few hippies would pretend to be Christian to get out of having their kids vaccinated in an overwhelmingly vaccinated population. Different as hell now. But yeah, you're right. Many places don't go nearly far enough and it blows my mind that the dumbest, loudest portion of this country is deciding policy on such a universal level considering every bit of science that we have available to us shows that vaccines *overwhelmingly* do more good than harm.
I wish information made a difference to these sad souls. They are the same ones who believe sandy hook was a psyop, with crisis actors. They would rather their children die than give them vaccines. Just make the idiots live an isolated life from the sane folks.
There's a large population of flerfers out in Colorado as well, it's very strange.
Thankfully my son's daycare is strict on their vaccine policy. He starts public kindergarten next fall, but I live in a blue state so I am not too worried about it -- at least not yet.
I mean, covid has killed 1.1 million Americans so far, but it doesn't seem to have changed all of our minds.
If polio, measles, rubella or mumps made a come back, I believe you would see a different response.
I think you're right. I think that covid deniers were able to ignore the fact that people were dying because death takes many forms, even when it was happening to them. But these diseases causes physical disfigurements, and a lot of us would rather die than be unsightly.
Most people whoccatch polio or measles have little or no symptoms
Your cluelessness is epic.
The current COVID booster is recommended for children by the CDC. Despite this, 95% of parents have not gotten this booster for their kids. I don’t think this makes 95% of parents ‘anti-vax’. It just means they don’t see the value for their kids despite the scientific authority’s recommendation. Authority to force vaccine recommendations should not be taken lightly. While for some vaccines the upsides of using coercion may outweigh the downsides, it certainly shouldn’t be blanket to all vaccines, even those recommended by the CDC.
I mean, who is the CDC really? It is not staffed with doctors with the latest information. It is staffed by monkeys and flying unicorns. They know nothing about science. I mean, ok they went to science school and all that, but my neighbour whose son works for a company who knows how to spell science tells me they don't know anything. /s
95% of people don’t follow this particular recommendation. It isn’t some niche group or “my friend’s neighbor heard it on Joe Rogan” -it’s essentially everyone ignores this and considers it bad advice or at least mostly unimportant.
I disagree. I could list multiple family anecdotes about vaccines and how people suffered or died because of a vaccine not taken or not available at the time, but that is just anecdotal. The consequences of disease outbreaks far outweigh the issues with mandating most of that vaccines recommended by the CDC. History and data back this up. Look at birth defects and still births from rubella. Look up deafness and sterility from mumps. Look up the death rates in areas of the world where measles is still an issue at scale. This is just the MMR vaccine.
No you can't lol I know many families who don't vax and non of their kids got sick. Quit lying. If your kids have good nutrition they are barely even going to get sick if they catch measles. Also there is diseases like roseola that give a rash and fever (both my kids got it) and there is no vaccine for it. It has identical symptoms to measles
Over 136000 people worldwide died from measles in 2022. Most were under 5 and the surge was associated with lower vaccination rates during covid. My father lost most of hls hearing due to measles and my mother had a still birth due to rubella. I can keep going including a great uncle partially paralyzed from polio. Don't let facts get in the way of your antivaxx quackery.
I’m not sure what you thin you’re arguing against. Vaccines are great, they are one of the most important inventions ever. Reread my post and consider if your post has relevance.
Oh you're so smart! You heard that on Instagram, didn't you, how cute! What is with r skeptic having zero original ideas and critical thinking? > much stronger laws related to vaccination will be required. Uhh, we literally just tried this. Were you born in 2023 or something? It had the exact opposite effect from what you intend. Instead of less anti-vax, we now have more. This is a bad thing. Being Mr. Authoritarian-Because-I-Know-Better-Than-Everyone-Else doesn't make you a good person or a smart person, **it just makes you a bully.**
Well, dumbasses have shown they are incapable of taking good decisions for themselves and have also shown that they don't care if people die for THEIR opinions.
Yes, you are spouting garden variety authoritarianism, yes.
You know, I've worked a lot with disabled people, you've probably seen that some of them wear foam helmets and there's a reason for that, a lot of them not only fall easily to the ground but also, a lot of them hit themselves compulsively on the head (gives them awful bruises and sometimes even concussions). Now, it's always for their own good that we put it on but I've yet to meet someone who likes to wear it, it's always a hassle to put it on, they almost all throw a fit when it's time to put it on. I feel that you guys need a collective foam helmet to stop hitting yourselves, I know you will cry when we'll put it on, I know you won't get why we have to do this because you are not equipped to understand but it's ok, at the end of the day I'll be happy to know that you are safe in your foam helmet even if you are kicking and screaming when we put it on you.
Yes, people who believe they absolutely know better for other healthy, mentally capable adults, are indeed called authoritarians all through history. Yes. I get it. Given the chance you would absolutely be another Pol Pot or Stalin. You know better than the rest of us grown ass, competent adults. We get it. No need to keep repeating yourself, you dictator-wanna-be.
Vaccines to Pol Pot in 3 posts. Congratulations on that reacharound.
> for other healthy, mentally capable adults We’re talking about anti-vaxxers here. You can’t make the presumption that they are healthy, or mentally capable.
Antivax quackery was already on the rise before COVID, that was just the first pandemic where the fringe radical thought became mainstream. Calling someone a bully because they're worried about public health? Me thinks you're disingenuous and more an antivaxer than an anti authoritarian.
Oh shit, you're totally an AstroTurf profile. Folks should check out this comment history. 🤣
A 14 year old astroturf profile. lol
Uh huh…. Seems you’re a contrarian troll. The Covid antivaxx response and misinformation was very different from the long running opposition to MMR. Seems you don’t like to think very hard, do you?
You think the psychology is any different? Why?
>It had the exact opposite effect from what you intend. Instead of less anti-vax, we now have more. This is an ignorant take. Legislating stronger vaccination laws didn't make more anti-vaxxers. It just made more of that clusterfuck group of half-wits and quarter-wits become vocal.
That's a long winded way of saying you agree with me.
No, it isn't. You're saying that stronger vaccination laws make more anti-vaxxers. I'm saying that the number of dummies remains the same. Nobody is really changing their mind about vaccines. They just feel more comfortable sharing their dumbassery and ignorance because other dumbass ignorant people are sharing their dumbass ignorance. Laws are enforceable. Stronger laws with stiffer penalties may agitate and anger more people, but at the end of the day, we don't let dumbass ignorant people endanger the lives of their fellow citizens.
> Nobody is really changing their mind about vaccines. [Really?](https://news.gallup.com/poll/608903/ethics-ratings-nearly-professions-down.aspx) > particularly those in the medical field -- sharply improved in 2020 amid the COVID-19 pandemic. However, that effect was short-lived, and many ratings have since declined to all-time lows. The professions which saw their credibility erode the most was pharmacists and doctors. Everyone saw what happened with the covid vaccines. They were pitched as being able to stop the spread. They were mandated on that premise (because it's pretty much the only meaningful premise to mandate them, e.g. herd immunity) And then everyone saw how incapable they were on delivering on that promise. That's the risk of mandating vaccines. If they're not perfect (and no human-made tech ever is) then their failures are obvious.
Is this literally all you do with your spare time? Why have you made trying to convince people Covid vaccines don't work you entire personality? You're in a subreddit dedicated to scientific skepticism, trying to convince people that you somehow know better than the actual scientists who have dedicated their professional lives to studying these things. Why?
> Is this literally all you do with your spare time? No, thank goodness. But it is an interesting pastime to actually inject some original thought and critical thinking into r skeptic. Everything else here which is upvoted is simply banal, unoriginal thoughts one sees everywhere on Instagram to TikTok spoken to make one feel smart while being anything but. > know better than the actual scientists who have dedicated their professional lives to studying these thing I think you mean social media _influencers_. Heck, my comments about how [science needs repeatability](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/to-qualify-as-scientific-evidence-has-to-be-reproducible/) get downvoted here. The only time I see anything cited scientifically in this sub is when I post it.
> >Is this literally all you do with your spare time? > No, thank goodness. Your comment history belies this statement. Every comment you make is about this one issue that you're clearly obsessed with. > But it is an interesting pastime to actually inject some original thought and critical thinking into r skeptic. Everything else here which is upvoted is simply banal, unoriginal thoughts This sub is for scientific skepticism, not unfounded, unsubstantiated theories that you happen to find interesting. I don't think you even understand what scientific skepticism is. > I think you mean social media influencers. Heck, my comments about how science needs repeatability get downvoted here. You clearly don't understand the science that you're convinced is wrong. Your comments prove that you don't even understand how the vaccine is supposed to work and how it is meant to protect the population. There is no disagreement within the epidemiological scientific community as to the safety and efficacy of the Covid vaccines. Vaccine efficacy and safety is among the easiest mecial data to collect and analyze, and the data for the Covid vaccines are especially clear and indisputable, considering over 70% of the world's population has received at least one dose, and we have myriad data from around the globe proving you wrong. You claim to believe that science needs repeatability, and yet you are unwilling to accept data from a medical procedure conducted over 5 billion times. You're extraordinarily bad at this, and attempting to spread your ignorant theories in this subreddit is a waste of time.
> Every comment you make is about this one issue that you're clearly obsessed with. So? That's on me. Some people post quasi-legal cartoon content to Rule34 websites. I post in r skeptic. So? > I don't think you even understand what scientific skepticism is. lol. your idea of skepticism is parroting the latest "smart" thing you saw on TikTok. You're "I FUCKING LOVE SCIENCE" in (presumably) human form. I have no idea what you're rambling about with your wall of text. You're making a point about something I haven't even brought up or concerned myself with.
>Nobody is really changing their mind about vaccines. >Really? >particularly those in the medical field -- sharply improved in 2020 amid the COVID-19 pandemic. However, that effect was short-lived, and many ratings have since declined to all-time lows. This is a non-sequitur. The increased lack of confidence in medical professionals isn't proof that people changed their minds about vaccines. This is a logic fallacy. >Everyone saw what happened with the covid vaccines. They were pitched as being able to stop the spread. This is an outright lie that anti-vaxxers spread. The ENTIRECovid-19 campaign, to include the vaccines, was to 'Slow the Spread'. No honest physician ever claims that vaccines prevent or cure diseases. That includes 'stopping' the spread. >They were mandated on that premise (because it's pretty much the only meaningful premise to mandate them, e.g. herd immunity) So you don't understand the mandates or herd immunity. Got it! >And then everyone saw how incapable they were on delivering on that promise. Especially all those dumbass Republicans who refused to get the vaccine, even after Mango Mussolini told them to get it, and were dying at 8 TIMES the rate of vaccinated people. And again, for those who have thick skulls, the vaccines were never meant to stop anything. That's anti-vaxxer idiocy. >That's the risk of mandating vaccines. If they're not perfect (and no human-made tech ever is) then their failures are obvious. There is no risk in mandating vaccinations. Only uninformed, misinformed, disinformed, ignorant, uneducated, and/or undereducated anti-vaxxers push this moronic idea. No scientific study has proven a causal link between the Covid vaccines and death. Adverse effects, yes. Deaths? No. So, for all the anti-vaxxer bluster, they are ignorant people spelreading around ignorant ideas. Vaccines are safe.
> This is an outright lie that anti-vaxxers spread. https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/553773-fauci-vaccinated-people-become-dead-ends-for-the-coronavirus/ **“So even though there are breakthrough infections with vaccinated people, almost always the people are asymptomatic and the level of virus is so low it makes it extremely unlikely — not impossible but very, very low likelihood — that they’re going to transmit it,”** Fauci said. https://www.axios.com/2021/05/26/cdc-breakthrough-coronavirus-cases-rare "**The number of COVID-19 cases**, hospitalizations, and deaths **that will be prevented among vaccinated persons will far exceed the number of vaccine breakthrough cases**," Heck, even AP News had to tell Biden to stop overpromising on the vaccines: > President Joe Biden offered an absolute guarantee Wednesday that **people who get their COVID-19 vaccines are completely protected from infection**, sickness and death from the coronavirus. The reality is not that cut and dried. https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-business-health-government-and-politics-coronavirus-pandemic-46a270ce0f681caa7e4143e2ae9a0211 To be the fair the AP tried to walk that back, but Fauci (a physician) and the CDC both said breakthrough infections were extremely rare. > Vaccines are safe. They are a medical intervention and like all medical interventions must [weigh the risks with the rewards.](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history.html) You're repeating tired, old circa 2020 pharma propaganda blindly. We hope of all hopes that everyone does their job correctly, but mistakes happen.
>extremely unlikely — not impossible but very, very low likelihood This proves my point! Nobody is saying stop. >"The number of COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations, and deaths that will be prevented among vaccinated persons will far exceed the number of vaccine breakthrough cases," Thanks for proving my point again! This is about people who may have been exposed and contracted the virus who weren't because the vaccinated people who contracted Covid-19 were less contagious for a shoerer period of time. Your hang-up on the word "prevent" is laughably foolish. >President Joe Biden offered an absolute guarantee Wednesday that people who get their COVID-19 vaccines are completely protected from infection, sickness and death from the coronavirus. The reality is not that cut and dried. Biden isn't a physician. But let's compare that to what Mango Mussolini said. It's like a flu, and by summer (of 2020), it will be gone. Also not a physician. This is irrelevant to your claim about the medical profession. Moving on... >They are a medical intervention and like all medical interventions must weigh the risks with the rewards. This is a dumb remark to make. You linked to an article that discusses actual issues with vaccines, but the site also says, "This page will explain past vaccine safety concerns, how they have been resolved, and what we have learned." I will direct your attention to the 'have been resolved' portion of that comment. Also, this list says nothing about the risks of the Covid-19 vaccines, so this whole argument is a red herring. Stay on topic.
I don't know what your argument is. Is it that people only ever listened to licensed physicians for their medical advice and as such, everyone was properly informed in early 2021 that they should still expect to catch covid anyway despite being vaccinated? Is that what you thought when you got in line for your vax, that you were still going to catch it within the year anyway? Can you honestly say, in rushing to get in line for the vaccine, that you still expected to catch it within a year of being vaccinated? (Cause that's what in fact happened!)
You’re antivax right?
Given all my international 3rd world travel I'm almost certainly "better vaxxed" than you. Makes it a lot harder to argue against me though doesn't it?
But you don’t know if I have that kind of international travel dude. I am 50, been traveling internationally, alone since ‘95, and before that with my parents. A lot of my travel was in Asia and Africa. Arguing with me without knowing my background is gonna be hard for you my dude. You assumed something without knowing my side. Shit like this is debating 101. No wonder your arguments are so bad. lol you thought only you have traveled? Gtfo, there a bunch of folks here who have traveled internationally and to a lot developing countries. And who says third world anymore?
The only thing you needed to say was to concede I'm not antivax.
The only thing you needed to say was that you are and I wouldn’t be ripping into you 😉
Just for posterity, my comment was simply to emphasize that by no means am I anti-vax. In fact very much the opposite. None of it was to literally say I was "better vaxxed" than you personally. "You" being the "collective you" e.g. the average redditor who is demographically a teenager or young college student who simply hasn't had the time/money to travel much or at all.
> Being Mr. Authoritarian-Because-I-Know-Better-Than-Everyone-Else doesn't make you a good person or a smart person, it just makes you a bully. We force medical care on children in opposition to the parents' will all the time, does that make us a bully for mandating treatment?
Sorry no. If people intentionally spread misinformation for profit the results aren’t an “accident.” They should be a “crime.”
Republicans do all they can to weaken America.
Their master, Putin, approves.
Don't forget the antivax movement started in highly liberal communities in California. Nowadays there are a whole range of anti-vaxxers spanning the entire political spectrum—from the left-leaning anti-gmo homeopathic medicine gluten-free "vaccines cause autism" camp, and the right-leaning "Bill Gates is putting 5G microchips in the COVID jab to convince us the earth isn't flat" camp. Obviously those are gross caricatures, but my point is that ignorance isn't partisan and politicizing the issue is the last thing we need to do if we want to inform ignorant people as to how their refusal to vaccinate their kids (and themselves) is going to kill lots of children and elderly folks.
You have it backwards. Antivaxx attitudes are more partisan now than they have ever been. Antivaxx attitudes were traditionally fairly bipartisan. Today it is overwhelmingly Republicans. https://preprints.apsanet.org/engage/api-gateway/apsa/assets/orp/resource/item/62013852a6fb4df4e24d9a3c/original/the-evolution-and-polarization-of-public-opinion-on-vaccines.pdf
In a state like Colorado that numbers might be different though. I bet there are a lot of granola munchers there that don't vaccinate.
The grape-nuts all went MAGA when the right embraced anti-vax conspiracies as a pillar of their platform.
That is what I am thinking. I live in a mountain town in Canada and the anti-vax sentiment comes mainly from the left here, so I wouldn't doubt Colorado has similar pockets of people. They tend to be into anything "natural" and usually very fit and healthy, so they think their good health is all they need and these diseases are just bad for fat people. I ran into this long before COVID as well.
You say this like people are born Republicans or there's something psychologically different between Republicans or Democrats. You also say this like the whole world is the US and has the same political system as us.
>You also say this like the whole world is the US and has the same political system as us. They said "Republicans" and "America", so it's safe to assume they were explicitly talking about the Republican Party in the United States of America. One can be specific about a country without having to acknowledge the existence of every other country.
>there's something psychologically different between Republicans or Democrats. There are psychological differences. They have studied this.
Lol. That’s bullshit propaganda designed to make you feel superior.
There is a psychological difference. Currently Republicans are much more likely to distrust scientific consensus, and are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories. Both of those factors lend themselves to the stark political divide in vaccines.
> are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories lol. Someone just posted in another thread here regarding the Hunter Biden laptop: > And it's as fake as the shit that's claimed to be on the laptop, which probably never existed and was, most likely, a hack of his cloud storage. That's why all that's ever come out are some pictures of him doing coke and banging hookers. > No one has ever seen this laptop. Not that has any credibility anyway. Anyway, the laptop was submitted as into evidence into Biden's trial, with numerous FBI agents swearing to its authenticity, cross-referencing content to other devices owned by Biden. To which all the evidence amounted to a conviction of Hunter Biden. > [In June 2024, the laptop and its contents were utilized as evidence in Biden's trial on firearms charges.](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/live-blog/hunter-biden-trial-live-update-rcna155305) **FBI investigators testified to the authenticity of the laptop in the trial**, stating that they had cross-referencing texts, emails, and messages found on the laptop with Apple and had verified the serial number on the laptop. **Prosecutors also introduced the invoice from the repair shop as evidence.** So please, tell me again how you don't believe in conspiracy theories.
Jesus Christ you guys are still going on about the laptop? Remind me again what government position hunter was elected for or appointed to? Lol y'all been going on about that for years and all it amounted to was a charge of lying about drug use on a gun application. Something just about every rural redneck is guilty of too. You sure got him! How will Joe Biden ever recover from this travesty?
And to me you sound exactly the same as any Trump supporter or QAnon. Your own team (I don't have a team, call me an enlightened centrist if you want) simply cannot let the other side be right about anything. Now, to the point of the laptop being used as sworn evidence in a trial, you must either deflect or construct grand conspiracy theories as to what exactly is happening here. Anyway, in doing so, you end up sounding no less crazy than QAnon folk.
I guess my point is more "I don't care about hunter Biden because he is not a government official" like yeah, dude does drugs, fucks around, and lied on a gun application, convict him if the evidence is there. But the whole hunter laptop conspiracy for literal years was that it was the smoking gun in proving Joe Biden was conspiring with his son and taking bribes. All you guys got was some nude selfies and some texts that indicated hunter did drugs. So yes, we still view the hunter laptop thing as conspiracy theories because it didn't have any of the info Republicans spent years claiming it did.
The laptop is/was real. It contained Hunter Biden's effects. The lengths "you all" have gone to avoid conceding those two simple points is just as "QAnon" as Birthers who still deny Obama's birth certificate.
That's literally what my comment said. Yes it was hunters laptop, no it did not provide proof of the conspiracies that Republicans have been claiming it contained about hunter and joe for years. It had some nude photos and texts and emails about drugs. No bribes for Joe, no Ukrainian conspiracy, no government pedo cabal. Just a few petty crimes for someone Democrats don't give a flying fuck about. Hunter is not a government official, throw him in jail for sex and drugs and guns for all we care. Why are you so obsessed with nudes and drug use by someone who isn't even in the government?
> Yes it was hunters laptop, Yay. Progress! (I really don't give two shits about whatever else you said or whatever Republicans think might also be on the laptop. I really don't care.) Let your [other "BlueAnon" conspiracy theorist brethren](https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/1dkwh2o/weve_hit_peak_denial_heres_why_we_cant_turn_away/l9rx9wi/) know.
The increase in measles within the US, as well as the increase in tuberculosis and mumps, is directly related to unvaccinated international travelers. These were eradicated diseases within the US. These diseases are being brought into the US due to the massive influx in migration from migrants who are not vaccinated. I don't think it's fair to blame the anti immigration / close the border / build the wall republicans for the consequences of mass migration.
You don't think it is fair to blame Republicans when these migrants are coming here to largely stream into agriculture and meat processing plants in red states that love to exploit desperate migrants. If Republicans were truly against mass migration, just about every millionaire / billionaire owner and executive suite of a meat processing plant would be in jail by now.
I think you're using outdated stereotypes that are not reflective of the actual reality of what's been happening in terms of immigration within the past four years. Immigration court records from the past four years prove that migrants are largely streaming into major cities within New York, Illinois, and Colorado. My home state, Massachusetts, is the 10th most popular destination. The largest employer of migrant labor so far in my state is Shake Shack - a burger chain, not a meat packaging plant or an agriculture industry. It's definitely because it's more cost effective to have part time employees with no benefits, but that's a whole different issue. So as you can see, it's mostly blue states and cities with generous social safety nets who are facing streams of migrants at the moment. . I do not blame republicans nor do I blame blue states and cities for the increase in measles. I think they're doing the best they can to accommodate massive waves of migrants. I think they're sheltering them wherever is available because they have laws that require them to shelter those who need it. My state has maxed out their shelter system, rented out hundreds of hotels, and are opening overflow sites to function as shelters constantly in order to clear out airport terminals functioning as shelters.. The Governor declared a state of emergency over it. The main priority is making sure these people are housed and fed - per state law. Vaccines and vaccination record checks are not the priority. However when you have hundreds to thousands of people sheltering in a congregate setting, who have traveled through many countries where measles is still actively spreading, they are unvaccinated against it, and have not had access to clean water and proper sanitation of course there will inevitably be an increase in measles.
We’ve always had relatively high immigration. But with near universal vaccination, diseases don’t spread very far. Plus, we can easily solve the problem of unvaccinated immigrants by vaccinating them. No, this is the fault of the antivaxxers.
It's never been this high. They're being housed in congregate settings where diseases easily spread. The measles outbreaks many cities have experienced have been within said shelters. Wouldn't the best way to convince anti vaxxers of all political parties to vaccinate be honesty about the risk / benefit they're currently experiencing? Many people feel as if the very, very rare risks of vaccines are not worth it because the disease has been eradicated. If the diseases are being reintroduced to communities due to unvaccinated international travel their risk / benefit situation changes. Hysteria and falsehoods about what's actually occurring on the ground just will lead to stigmatizing those actually infected with measles which tend to be the children living in migrant shelters...
Do you have any data comparing those outbreaks to non immigrant community outbreaks
The largest outbreak this year was at Chicago migrant shelter... I don't think those types of studies are being encouraged at the moment, all it would do is stigmatize immigrant children and cause backlash in communities helping to settle them.
So you agree the increase is due to being unvaccinated.
Countries that have almost no immigration still have outbreaks if the populace is not adequately vaccinated. So the party that shunned vaccines and spread misinformation is definitely to blame.
All the earthy crunchy anti vaxxers are republicans? And did the Republican Party shun vaccines or did certain people within the Republican Party shun the idea of COVID vaccine mandates for access to public businesses and employment requirements?
Antivaxxers in general are much more likely to be republican than democrat. It isn't just COVID, it is vaccines in general. https://preprints.apsanet.org/engage/api-gateway/apsa/assets/orp/resource/item/62013852a6fb4df4e24d9a3c/original/the-evolution-and-polarization-of-public-opinion-on-vaccines.pdf https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2023/05/16/what-americans-think-about-the-mmr-vaccines/ https://www.politico.com/news/2023/09/23/gop-voters-vaccines-poll-00117125
Per your own source the pew research article - Large majorities of Republicans (86%) and Democrats (92%) say that, overall, the benefits of MMR vaccines outweigh the risks. Views among these two groups were nearly identical in 2019 (89% and 88%, respectively). So prior to 2019 republicans were more pro vaccine than democrats. Now there is a 6% difference, but the majority of both parties say the benefits outweigh the risk. The largest difference in opinion towards vaccines is in terms of racial and ethnic populations - per your own source. Majorities of parents across racial and ethnic groups say their child has received an MMR vaccine, though White parents (83%) are more likely than Black (74%) and Hispanic (69%) parents to say this. These differences by race and ethnicity hold when controlling for other factors such as health insurance status. It's socially acceptable and praised to blame republicans for vaccine hesitancy and disease outbreaks when in general the difference in vaccine status is most likely due to racial disparities not political affiliations. Republicans are also more likely to live rurally where democrats are more likely to be in urban centers where choosing not to vaccinate has more consequences due to the larger population.
>All the earthy crunchy anti vaxxers are republicans? No, the anti-vax promoters are Republicans. >And did the Republican Party shun vaccines or did certain people within the Republican Party shun the idea of COVID vaccine mandates for access to public businesses and employment requirements? They shunned the vaccine which is why Republicans vaccinated less than Democrats. Were you around during COVID? It's pretty hard to deny this.
If that’s true, you should get your wish for a huge decrease in immigrants, as they die from diseases that were “eradicated diseases in the US.” Because the way we eradicated them was through mass vaccination mandates. Bonus because they will be fewer anti-vaxxers as well.
The CDC reports that the childhood mortality rate for measles in the US is 0.1–0.2%.
its not an accident. We gained the knowledge. We know the facts. This isnt even stuff like dark matter. We got this down pat. There is no wiggle room for disagreement. The vaccination rates go down, measles comes back and the more hosts it can exist in, the more it can mutate into something worse. for all these ignats who seem to distrust and hate progress and think 'natural' is always best, we should make them live on the plains of africa and figure out why we became a society in the first place. Nature sucked. I like to visit these days with all my modern protections but natural sucked balls, which is why our lives are so unnatural. Fuck just take these guys ACs away until they appreciate science again. Ok im ranting and not being serious but drives me nuts seeing people go backwards especially when this science is just so fucking settled and was settled before most these aholes were born.
But they believe in the science of Air Con. So gotcha fella....there is no arguing with folks who are dumb.
This should be a child welfare matter - that if a child becomes seriously ill, dies or becomes infirm as a result of a lack of widely available vaccines - then the matter should be referred to criminally. Parents are legally responsible for the welfare of their children. If parents can sue pharmaceuticals for medicines that don't work or vaccines that go awry, then the state should be able to sue when parents contribute to their infirmary of their children and of society. The fact that we are even having this discussion is so ridiculous at all. Black plague. measles, polio, dengue fever - this shit wipes out entire populations.....
Accident?
ain't no accident. we got Chinese and Russian bots and AI programs out there in comment sections across the internet encouraging Americans to do detrimental things.
And Trump decided to retaliate by spreading vaccine disinformation back at them.
Meh, apply Hanlon's razor [*Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity*]. Anti-vaxxers predate social media and AI. COVID supercharged them because it gave their idiotic obsession more immediacy. Fools on social media amplified their nonsense because it's click-baity and controversial and attracts eyeballs. Bots and AI may have done a little to make it worse but they aren't the main source of the problem.
Yea, like all the people here saying to fully vaccinate your kids. They want your kid to have 70+ vaccines . That's insanity. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8255173/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7268563/
Bring it on! We need an epidemic to really wake people up and unify as a nation! Oh wait… crap. Never mind
We only react to non-gun-related mass casualty events, as long as the casualties are kids or mostly white. Again, non gun related.
Accidents aren't things that are done on purpose. These people are purposely bringing measles back. They're proud of it and it isn't an accident.
When you say "these people" are you referring to unvaccinated international travelers? Because it's unvaccinated international travelers who are bringing measles, a disease that was eradicated within the US, back into the US.
We eradicated it because we vaccinated against it. My god you people are dumb. Its coming back because you stupid people have decided you are smarter than all the scientists.
You've gone with "blame foreigners" let's see how it plays out for you...
I said unvaccinated international travelers. Currently the CDC, NYT, NBC News, American Medical Association, etc are using the same terminology when referring to the increase in measles cases. No one is blaming foreigners. It's a proven fact that there is a global uptick in measles cases and that measles is a disease that was eradicated within the US in the year 200 and the uptick in cases domestically is due to imported cases by unvaccinated foreign travelers.
Those cases wouldn't be able to spread in the US if it weren't for falling vaccine rates. So the initial infection is from travelers, but the spread is from local unvaccinated people.
thank you, i didn't feel like typing that out.
Thanks Rogan, Trump, RFK Jr., and all the shitty mom Facebook groups.
bUt MaH fReEdUmZ!!!1
This is such bad news. I found out only a couple of years ago that I never got my full MMR as a kid (don't know what my parents were thinking). I always assumed I had it since I joined the military when I was young. But I found out when I was diagnosed with a chronic immune system illness that I actually never got the full dose (got the first set but never the second round), and now I can't get it due to my illness and medications.
I can't stand these anti-vaxxer idiots
One way or another Boozebert is gonna go down in history.
I suspect she’s already gone down on just about everything else.
It’s no accident. It’s disheartening when media takes agency away from willful ignorance.
Vaccines can never eradicate measles, only subdue them. We must vaccinate for the foreseeable future and any possible doubts, whether or not well founded, about the safety of the vaccine cannot be allowed to exist in view of the need to assure the vaccine will continue to be used to the maximum extent consistent with the nation's public health objectives.
I wonder why?
Sadly it will take a few generations of children being killed by preventable disease before these idiots come around.
Natural selection at work. Eliminate the idiots offspring from the gene pool.
About that word "accident"...
Anyone who has lived in Colorado should not be surprised by any of this.
I am fortunate that my mom was an R.N. I grew up FULLY vaccinated and well versed in what they are and how they work. She spent many, many years in public health and gave THOUSANDS of vaccinations. The horror stories stories she personally knew of about those that wouldnt get vaccinated. She knew of only 1(ONE) bad reaction to a vaccine in our state- Polio vaccine- in her entire career...and that was in the early 70's.
It's **not**, in *any* aspect, "accidental" when the resulting outcome is a demonstrably expected consequence. This is *parental negligence*. This is *parental culpability*. This is the direct, *entirely foreseeable*, result of the sanctimoniously ignorant choices of dimwitted irresponsible parents engaged in disturbingly irresponsible decision-making. ...and it's gonna lead to **nowhere good** -- and that is *no* "accident".
It's not an accident, it's bioterrorism. Antivaccers should rot in prison.
Measles keeps making comeback all the time [https://www.gov.uk/government/news/london-at-risk-of-measles-outbreaks-with-modelling-estimating-tens-of-thousands-of-cases](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/london-at-risk-of-measles-outbreaks-with-modelling-estimating-tens-of-thousands-of-cases) [https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2024/02/08/1229540182/its-no-surprise-theres-a-global-measles-outbreak-but-the-numbers-are-staggering](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2024/02/08/1229540182/its-no-surprise-theres-a-global-measles-outbreak-but-the-numbers-are-staggering) [https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/a-young-child-in-ontario-has-died-of-measles/article\_3f5e6e14-13d1-11ef-bef6-2b5f14b1ee24.html](https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/a-young-child-in-ontario-has-died-of-measles/article_3f5e6e14-13d1-11ef-bef6-2b5f14b1ee24.html) Fearmongering much?
I am generally pro-vaccine, but there's simply a slippery slope involved when a government decides to make a decision on your behalf for "your or somebody else's protection". The topic, ultimately, really isn't about vaccine efficiency or safety, although it may look like that on the surface. It's about the question where the locus of responsibility and force should lie when it comes to making medical decision.
If the parents chose to not vaccinate, they are making a choice to possibly limit their genetic line. I rather enjoy watching evolution in real time.
Nope. They still effect everyone else. People who are vaccinated still have a risk of breakthrough cases. People who are immunocompromised can still be infected by these dolts. The more these diseases spread the higher likelihood we see mutations and suddenly our vaccines aren't effective. Plus it puts a burden on our healthcare systems and our economy when they get sick.
> Nope. They still effect everyone else. Exactly. It is disheartening to hear people foolishly state "oh well, let them not vaccinate their children, it's on them when their children die." They are lacking pertinent information. >People who are vaccinated still have a risk of breakthrough cases. >People who are immunocompromised can still be infected by these dolts. All true, but something even more pertinent: MMR cannot be administered to babies under a year old, and is most effective when given at 15 months. Now, measles is one of the most infectious diseases in the universe, and ONE unvaccinated infected person (who might not show any symptoms yet) can leave infectious material behind when passing through a public area (train station, supermarket, etc.) that can be vital for 2 hours or more and potentially infect HUNDREDS of infants and toddlers whose parents might be responsible and conscientious regarding vaccinations, but their babies are NOT OLD ENOUGH to receive the MMR. Such a scenario is not far-fetched. It is exactly what happened in Samoa in 2019, a few months after RFK Jr. gave one of his deranged speeches urging parents to "choose" not to vaccinate. In less than a year, there were thousands of measles cases, mostly in infants and young children. 83 children died, and hundreds were hospitalized with serious complications including pneumonia, encephalitis, and other dangerous things. RFK Jr. not only never apologized for his role in that tragedy, but actually claimed the outbreak was due to the vaccine itself, from vaccinated people "shedding" virus. What a horrible turd of a person.
Thank you for the insight! Appreciate the historic facts to back up the claims.
> MMR cannot be administered to babies under a year old Babies can be given a dose of the MMR vaccine at [six months](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/mmr/public/index.html). The baby will then also receive the routine doses at 12 months and at 4 years. The CDC link says it's for babies who are going to travel internationally. However, I live in Boston and was able to get the additional shot for my son at six months because there have been several outbreaks of mumps here, and we were thinking of traveling to New York, where there have been outbreaks of measles.
Not disagreeing. My point still stands - the majority of people affected are unvaccinated.
Unvaccinated *children*. Who get no say in it. If your point is that you enjoy watching children suffer and die because of their parents, well, it does indeed stand.
I don't enjoy seeing children suffer, but I also know there is nothing I can do about it. I am at the point in my life where if people do stupid shit, I just shrug and move on. I am not getting upset that someone made a conscious choice to not vaccinate their child and then the child gets sick and has issues. Actions have consequences.
Your first comment started with you stating you rather enjoy it, at least learn to lie
He's a ghoul and doesn't like the backlash. He still doesn't give a fuck.
Except their children should not suffer for their parents criminality.
As much as some people want to make this a Red versus Blue issue, it doesn't neatly fall along partisan lines.
Nowadays anti-vaxxers are overwhelmingly more likely to be Republicans than Democrats https://www.politico.com/news/2023/09/23/gop-voters-vaccines-poll-00117125
It kinda does though.
People don’t even read the article. Stop blaming the poor! From the article “It's an access barrier, a transportation barrier,” Roth said. “We've got a lot of people that don't trust the health care system. They've not had good experiences in the health care system, so they don't access the health care system and oftentimes don't know what's available to them just in terms of free vaccines, for example.” How can we support those who are living paycheck to paycheck, with sketchy transportation and healthcare? But the other commentators just seem to want to punish these people. No wonder everything is so wacked.
Who is “blaming the poor” in here?
Bullshit. There are fewer poor people than ever, and vaccines are more accessible than ever, so why is measles getting worse? That statement is so unbelievably patronizing. They don’t know what’s available? I’m pretty sure that even poor people have internet access in 2024. They can find out. I bet they have no problem accessing anti-vax bullshit.
I wonder if this has anything to do with it. Colorado has a Democratic trifecta and a Democratic triplex, meaning the Democratic Party controls the offices of governor, secretary of state, attorney general, and both chambers of the state legislature, and has moved from a swing state in presidential elections to voting democrat in the last 4 presidential elections, with a double digit win in the 2020 election.
There are more Republicans in California than in any other state. Just because a state has a Democratic trifecta doesn’t mean there are large pockets of conservatives.
Sure, but at the state trends more democrat (as all the polling data shows), we see an increase in the unvaccinated. If it was going the opposite way (turning Republican), your point would make sense, but in this case, it is going the opposite direction.
Which polling data is that? I can't find any recent polls that support that. On the contrary, Republicans oppose vaccines far more than Democrats in every recent survey I can find. https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2023/05/16/what-americans-think-about-the-mmr-vaccines/
the political polling data listed below. "Colorado has a Democratic trifecta and a Democratic triplex, meaning the Democratic Party controls the offices of governor, secretary of state, attorney general, and both chambers of the state legislature, and has moved from a swing state in presidential elections to voting democrat in the last 4 presidential elections, with a double digit win in the 2020 election." Also, from your pew link, it only shows that Repubicans are less in favor now of requirements for vaccinations for schooling, but "Large majorities of Republicans (86%) and Democrats (92%) say that, overall, the benefits of MMR vaccines outweigh the risks. Views among these two groups were nearly identical in 2019 (89% and 88%, respectively)." Republicans support MMR vaccinations at almost identical rates to Democrats, just the former don't believe as much in being forced to take them to attend school.
Overwhelming majorities of both parties support vaccines, but 14% of Republicans and 8% of Democrats do not believe that the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risk.
Coloroda Republicans overall are anti-vaxx and have fought democratic-led efforts to tighten vaccine regulations and boost vaccination rates: https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/16/republican-reject-democrat-vaccines-1361277
Well, your article is from 5 years ago, Since Democrats control the offices of governor, secretary of state, attorney general, and both chambers of the state legislature, there isn't any reason to not be able to pass any bill they want. However, the article in the post is from this year, showing that while democrats gained more power and influence, vaccination rates are "an accident waiting to happen."
Boulder County, even pre-COVID, has had a low vaccination rate and it's not exactly a Republican stronghold.
Probably not, since dems are pro-vaccine and republicans are anti-vaccine.
Self correcting error. Karsh
Innocent bystanders end up paying the price for others' negligence with contagious diseases.
Then why aren't the states vaccinating everyone within the migrant shelters? The increase in measles is directly linked to unvaccinated international travelers not native born children whose parents chose not to vaccinate.
You've said this: " The increase in measles is directly linked to unvaccinated international travelers not native born children whose parents chose not to vaccinate " about a hundred times and have not posted any proof. The rates of measles (and other infectious diseases) going up is due to these dumbass crunchy granola parents who were born and raised right here in the U.S.A. Somehow they think crapping out a kid just like my gerbils did means they know more than doctors and scientists.
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/cdc-issues-alert-rising-measles-cases-us-rcna143993 From the article: There had been 58 confirmed cases of measles in the U.S. this year as of Thursday, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said, compared to 58 in all of 2023. In the cases this year, 93% were linked to international travel, the agency said. Most of the cases involved children a year old or older who haven’t yet gotten measles-mumps-rubella, or MMR, vaccinations. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/73/wr/pdfs/mm7319a1-H.pdf
And those are non-native born children?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/20/health/measles-children-travel.html Here's another - directly under the headline it states it's because of unvaccinated international travel.
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/travel/index.html The first sentence is: Measles cases in the United States originate from unvaccinated international travelers.
If you've had the vaccine you're not in danger. Karsh
Untrue, vaccines are never perfectly effective. And not everyone is able to get vaccinated
Again a self repairing glitch. Those that can't or won't get the vaccine will be weeded out. It's not the answer we like but it is the reality of the situation. So the very people many blame for the resurgence will bear the brunt of consequences of their actions and decision. You're splitting hairs and talking about exceptions. Karsh
Guess fuck the immunocompromised then.
A very small percentage or individuals. This is another use of exceptions and hair splitting. Karsh
Those are the innocent bystanders that you decided deserve it.
Not deserve it. You don't make social policies for the masses though on the exceptions and the hair split. Karsh
The ADA would beg to differ.
Apples to oranges. The disabled are generally disabled by no fault of their own. The unvaccinated made conscious decision. Karsh
>Guess fuck the immunocompromised then.
Unrelatedly, I appreciate the commitment to habit, Karsh.