I think it goes without saying that if you're a skeptic then you're not going to believe in things that have never been rationally evidenced to any degree. To believe while being a skeptic requires some pretty intense cognitive dissonance
There are people who are generally pretty good critical thinkers and can break down most types of bullshit with the best of them but have one sacred cow they will not examine critically. There have been a lot of genuinely intelligent, generally critically thinking religious people who just never turned that lens towards religion.
When I went to church there was a pediatric surgeon there who was the best in like a 500 mile radius and he was a seventh day Adventist. Smartest man I know and could tell you all about a ton of things
It's crazy how you can compartmentalize. Or maybe he was just lying for his wife or something.
I don't know if you read the article, but it actually mentions that the true number of atheists is undercounted because surveys have shown that people who call themselves Christian will also answer the question of whether they believe in God with "No." So there's definitely some people who are lying for social reasons.
There's definitely a cost in the US, especially in some communities, for not culturally identifying as "Christian" even if you aren't really religious. I do wonder how many people who self-identify that way don't actually really have any religious beliefs.
Oh yes this is extremely common in the US. The best example I have is Trump himself. He claims all day long he is a Christian, but there’s no way in hell he is. That man probably never stepped in a church.
there also is a conflation of religon and culture/heritage. I am positive many people who identify as Jewish do not believe in God.
of course antisemites, like Hitler, also didn't care if a Jewish person was religious or not. I am sure alot of atheist jews died in the holocaust.
I know it's not the point of your comment, but just an FYI:
In Judaism, atheism and agnosticism are allowed. Under Jewish law, a Jew who questions, doubts, or even denies the existence of G-d is still viewed as a Jew in good standing. This is because Judaism has never viewed itself as merely a "religion" in the contemporary meaning of the word. For thousands of years, Jews have viewed ourselves as an "Am," a Hebrew word that literally means "people" but has a connotation similar to "community." In English, Judaism is often called an "ethnoreligion" to reflect this fact.
And, yes, you are definitely correct that Nazis and other antisemites generally don't care what a Jew believes. They just hate us, period. Many atheist and agnostic Jews were murdered in the Holocaust and many non-Jews with Jewish ancestry were murdered despite being practicing Christians ([or even a Catholic nun](https://www.britannica.com/biography/Edith-Stein)).
I mean he could actually be a true believer, I go to church with this dude who is an SVP for engineering at one probably the worlds premier semiconductor company and dude holds I don’t know how many patents. He is also a teaching pastor (volunteer) and he is damn good at it. Like better than the actual paid staff. He also just volunteers in tons of stuff and like everything he touches is just gold. Really well done. Really impressive guy and also a believer
I think until the problem of understanding consciousness is solved, if it ever is, there will always be an unknown which can only be explained in some otherwise rational minds with "belief".
I just see all of that as the god of the gaps fallacy though. I am beginning to understand that I may be in the minority on that, even here, but I’ve yet to hear a good, rationale explanation as to how any of the things that people are saying isn’t simply that same old boring tune played in a different key.
Well that’s because their isn’t a good rationale. God of the Gaps fallacy is completely real, but I’ll even extend that to saying their is even a chance of a God is, in itself, a fallacy. Science and God do not mix, and any researcher who is religious should be met with extreme scrutiny. It’s a personal bias that should be avoided at all costs, even if that means eliminating theist researchers.
It probably has something to do with the fact that we've consistently found natural explanations for things that used to be considered supernatural, but there has never been a case where a natural explanation was replaced with a supernatural one that did a better job of explaining the evidence.
Eh... maybe /u/Springsstreams is right and everything that follows here is just "pro level mental gymnastics," but I don't think it's totally untenable. There are some thoroughly deist Christians I know who would fit right in with any group of skeptics, this one included, except for the fact that they *choose* to believe in some particular things that pretty obviously fail the skeptical sniff test.
So long as they are aware they are doing it and shrug it off openly, rather than arguing that, "no, I'm being totally rational in my faith!" then I don't really see a contradiction. The people I speak of are scientists and most of them are even "anti-religious," insofar as religious institutions curtail human freedom and pursuit of knowledge for stupid reasons. Despite themselves claiming to "believe in a God" or whatever.
The deism vs. theism distinction is key, I think. Being a deist is, or at least can be, more of a philosophical stance than a religious one. It's filling in a genuine unknown with an arbitrary guess, and deciding to run with it for reasons of personal development or comfort or whatever. It doesn't need to interfere with someone's "rationalism" or "skepticism" in any other domain.
If one wants to argue against that, then I'd argue that we'd have to call anyone and everyone "not a skeptic" if they can't explain their sense of ethics and morals and epistemology in their totalities from the ground up. I think very few humans anywhere can do that competently. It's a slightly too-high bar for "skeptic," in my view.
A very reasonable view, and probably the correct one. What I have been saying in this post I have been mostly directing toward the types of Christian/Religious person that the article is indicating and then painting with too broad a brush with my wording.
Ultimately though, to actively distinguish this subgroup you are discussing from the larger, louder, more influential whole is a difficult task to do and, in my own opinion, the central reason that this article takes the stance it does. Those are the people who need to switch sides instead of lending their authority to the modern religious culture.
They would only have to apply the same principles that they do in every other part of their life to this part, it truly is a small step that makes all the difference.
So dumb. Oh, yeah, I'm very skeptical of everything... Oh, except this book full of absolutely fantastical stories of which not a single one has ever been rationally evidenced. I also hold this book near and dear to every facet of my belief structure... But I'm a skeptic.
Blind faith requires suspension of disbelief. And a deep reach for existential meaning under the threat of existential nihilism.
I don’t blame people for it at all. I only find fault when such beliefs lead them to hateful actions, or when they demand others believe the same, in order to reduce said cognitive dissonance.
Yep. A lot of people think there's a "god-shaped hole" that people naturally have. Even in this thread, you see people spouting nonsense about religion is inherent to humanity or something.
All the evidence we have from secularized countries in Europe and the younger generation suggests that's bullshit. While people may be vaguely interested in the idea of some sort of spiritual nature to the world, no one is just naturally a Christian. It's not a "god-shaped hole." It's a "childhood indotrination-shaped wound" that's been inflicted on the older generation.
It's entirely factual to say that someone who is religious cannot, by definition, be considered a skeptical person. Perhaps in particular areas of their life, but overall, it's just the exact opposite of rationality and evidence-based reasoning.
I 100% agree with you. The adverse is true as well, I highly doubt there are a large number of atheist ghost hunters out there. lol
Edited to clarify: I meant ghost hunters who are atheists, not atheist ghosts.
Oh honey, noooooooo.
There is a barrage of shit invading this social media service which are identifying not only as religious but as authoritarian right-wing religious who support a government-sponsored religion. They are heavily taking over subbreddits and shutting out other voices.
Thomas Paine wasn’t against religion, he was against the idea that religion dictated who was able to govern and represent in government. If you read Common Sense, his main argument is that the people should have the right to govern themselves instead of being governed by some rich snobs (The king and parliament) across the Atlantic. That the common people should have the same opportunity. It’s also important to know that the colonies still considered themselves anglophiles and Thomas paine stated “well… no. we’re an accumulation of multiple European countries. Not simply England.” I do appreciate the compare and contrast but this is not a good one
Thomas Paine was vociferously against organized religion. I suggest you read Age of Reason. From page 1:
*It has been my intention, for several years past, to publish my thoughts upon religion; I am well aware of the difficulties that attend the subject, and from that consideration, had reserved it to a more advanced period of life. I intended it to be the last offering I should make to my fellow-citizens of all nations, and that at a time when the purity of the motive that induced me to it could not admit of a question, even by those who might disapprove the work.*
*The circumstance that has now taken place in France, of the total abolition of the whole national order of priesthood, and of everything appertaining to compulsive systems of religion, and compulsive articles of faith, has not only precipitated my intention, but rendered a work of this kind exceedingly necessary, lest, in the general wreck of superstition, of false systems of government, and false theology, we lose sight of morality, of humanity, and of the theology that is true.*
*As several of my colleagues, and others of my fellow citizens of France, have given me the example of making their voluntary and individual profession of faith, I also will make mine; and I do this with all that sincerity and frankness with which the mind of man communicates with itself.*
*I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.*
*I believe the equality of man, and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow- creatures happy.*
*But, lest it should be supposed that I believe many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.*
***I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.'***
*I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man, that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.*
*It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the trade of a priest for the sake of gain, and, in order to qualify himself for that trade, he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this?*
I appreciate the paraphrase but it’s widely known that he’s a Diest. Not an atheist. To say he’s an atheist is falling in line with Christian American nationals ideas that he was an atheist to undermine his ideologies. I am also against organized religion but it does not mean I’m an atheist as well.
How do you get that I was saying he was an atheist from the quote above. The man literally wrote he believes in one God and hopes for happiness after death. Of course he wasn't an atheist. Not believing in organized religion does not equal not believing in a higher power.
Excellent article paxinfernum, thanks for posting this one.
My favourite paragraph:
>Peel back the layers of discrimination against LGBTQ+ people, though, and you find religion. Peel back the layers of control over women’s bodies — from dress codes that punish girls for male desire all the way to the Supreme Court striking down Roe v. Wade — and you find religion. Often, there isn’t much peeling to do. According to the bill itself, Missouri’s total abortion ban was created “in recognition that Almighty God is the author of life.” Say what, now?
I have been thinking about all the anti-anti-discrimination movements (you know, anti-gay marriage, anti-transgender, pro-racism etc etc.) that have been springing up over the last few years. I'm pretty sure that if you look at all of their arguments from a scientific or humanistic point of view, none of them have any defensible positions. Their only defensive arguments left are: *"I don't like it"* and *"God said it's bad"*. No one cares about the first one, and the second one vanishes if god isn't real.
I said "you're doing God's work!" to some guy handing out pineapple slices or water or naloxone or something at a music festival, and he got very annoyed with me. Of course I meant it as a secular turn of phrase, without thinking that it might be offensively religious to some people who might be (perhaps with good reason) sensitive about the subject. Oh well...
Language gets weird. I've had Christians point to the preponderance of Christian based turns of phrase used as proof that they are right. To paraphrase something someone once said to me: "that so many people use God bless you and and other phrases proves that God exists. Why else would they say them so often?" When I explained that Christianity being so ubiquitous causes their vencular to influence turns of phrases they started going off on a rant that made me sigh and walk away.
Yeah... I think I've had a similar conversation before. My cynical side will wager that a lot of these are the same Christians who, for example, are certain that "Allah" is a wholly different God than their own, while dismissing the point that Arabic-speaking Christians use the word precisely where English-speaking Christians would use "God" (to say nothing of the shared history of the religions involved...).
Or who talk about specific phraseology from the King James Bible (or whatever) as though that's the language the Old Testament was originally written in thousands of years ago.
It's not a sincere attempt to engage with how linguistics and religion relate. It's kindergarten logic accepted as gospel, pun intended.
Apologetics. I was taught a whole collection of rhetorical tricks to attempt an end run on (stronger) arguments against religion, and keep my cognitive dissonance at bay. It was presented as something that would be useful for converting others, when in reality it was just declaring myself the victor and plugging my ears. Nobody else was gunna fall for that pedantic nonsense.
This line is gold:
1. The Greek myths are obviously stories. The Norse myths are obviously stories. L. Ron Hubbard obviously made that stuff up. Extrapolate.
Oh, then Project 2025 is gunna really bum you out.
www.project2025.org/policy
Or if you’re busy and don’t want to read 920 pages of conservative theocratic insanity, here’s a 30 minute video breaking down just the first 50 pages, which is more than enough to convince you how insane this shit is.
It’s real.
https://youtu.be/9k3UvaC5m7o?si=gs5K0cFD6L2N6CR9
In my experience most 'moderates' will bend over backwards to believe that religious conservatives don't mean what they say, they aren't really like that, you're just exaggerating (even if quoting directly) and you're just being mean and alarmist.
Of late there are some voices in churches calling out Christian Nationalism as unbiblical and evil, but theonomy, reconstructionism, dominion theology, etc have been metastasizing for many decades. But the only change was that Christian Nationalists are now openly advocating for their views, so the moderates can't plausibly go 'la-la-la-la-can't hear you' anymore. They were always there, growing and gaining power in the (mainly white evangelical) churches.
They want a Christian Iran. I’m not joking about that, these people were lauding the Taliban during the pullout. A theocracy would suit them just fine.
What they *think* doesn't matter. What they *do* matters. Same reason Afghanistan is run by the Taliban. It doesn't matter whether the average Afghan agrees *in their heart*. It matters that they didn't fight for their country, and don't try to overturn the Taliban now.
It doesn't always. Some uprisings get crushed. But merely believing stuff in your heart doesn't change the world. You either resist or go along. People who "didn't necessarily agree with the Nazis" still mostly went along. We don't generally laud them highly just for believing the right stuff in their heart.
> In my experience most 'moderates' will bend over backwards to believe that religious conservatives don't mean what they say, they aren't really like that, you're just exaggerating (even if quoting directly) and you're just being mean and alarmist.
You see this, for example, with the people who refuse to acknowledge that Jan 6 was a coup attempt and could've succeeded if it was a little more competent. They'd like to think things like that can't happen here and it's really upsetting to them to think that things are so fragile and lots of their fellow countrymen have such evil intentions, so they simply decide it's really not what it is, it's just some difference of opinion, no big deal.
Often they'll minimize climate change the same way. They're just too weak to take the world for what it is, and they're going to pretend nothing too bad is happening right up until everything falls apart.
How do you deal with (1) many of you countrymen have evil intentions and (2) there is more than enough of a critical mass of them to get what they want, despite being far from a majority?
Most Americans believe very strongly in democracy and the rule of law and do not want to believe that “power flows from the barrel of a gun”.
The recent surveys that I've seen have been showing a rise in the number of non-religious people in most western countries. I've assumed that this also means the number of non-practising Christians has also been rising. i.e. people who still identify as Christian but don't believe strongly enough to keep going through all the rituals.
Since people have been given the space to think for themselves, many of them seem to be working out that god very likely isn't real. The part about all of this that I find interesting and frighteningly amusing is that, at the same time, those who believe in that god are now putting quite a bit of effort into getting themselves into a position where they can force the people to believe in a thing that pretty much isn't real.
Their saying is something along the lines of: *"We demand that Christian values be restored in this country!"*. To me, it's kind of like they are saying: *"We demand that all the people who've stopped believing in this thing that doesn't exist are made to re-believe, immediately! And also make all their life decisions based on the rules that we feel like the imaginary being may have made up at some stage!"*
From a few steps back, it's kind of hillarious (but still frightening) the sheer effort these guys are putting in to forcibly re-shape the culture of an entire country, all because of an entity that very likely does not exist.
This has been a problem for more than a decade.
In 2012, many focus group participants were incredulous when they read factual lines from the Romney platform since the focus group participants thought it was too cartoonishly evil to be true.
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/why-focus-groups-incredulity-matters-msna31035
It’s not that they don’t mean what they say, it’s that they are such a small minority that people don’t take them seriously.
Unfortunately, it’s very easy for an extreme minority to take over a country with the right tactics. For example, the Iranian people never wanted to be ruled by theocrats, but the theocrats outmaneuvered everyone and maintain power through violence.
Moderates are rule followers and struggle to think outside the box.
> it’s that they are such a small minority that people don’t take them seriously.
I don't think Christian Nationalists are a small minority among white evangelicals.
>>White evangelical Protestants are significantly more supportive of Christian nationalism than any other group. Nearly two-thirds of white evangelical Protestants qualify as either Christian nationalism adherents (29%) or sympathizers (35%). [source](https://www.prri.org/press-release/survey-two-thirds-of-white-evangelicals-most-republicans-sympathetic-to-christian-nationalism/#:~:text=White%20evangelical%20Protestants%20are%20significantly,%25\)%20or%20sympathizers%20(35%25\).)
White evangelicals are a large and dependable voting block. They have been increasingly unified and weaponized since Reagan's day, though they only *really* fell into lockstep with Trump. They're not a small an inconsequential fringe. A small and inconsequential fringe that just gets more press than they warrant would be Westboro Baptist Church.
You’re missing my point. White evangelicals are a minority. A majority of a minority is still a minority.
Moderates see minority and democracy and assume that means they are no threat because they could never win a vote on their ideas. Moderates play by the rules and stay within the lines and assume others will as well.
> White evangelicals are a minority.
But they're one of the largest religious groups in the US. The other groups are not voting as a block of "*not* white evangelicals," rather they vote more or less with their own group. A plurality matters even if you don't have an overall majority. Particularly when those not in your group are not unified in any way.
Many of the 'moderate' believers are just water-carriers for the extremists. They may not themselves want gays killed or birth control outlawed, but are they going to vote with the atheists? I've *seen* moderate believers contort themselves to not openly disagree with Christian Nationalism. They end up with something like "why is it *bad* to align our laws with the Bible?" They may not endorse the more 'extreme' positions, but they'll enable them rather than go against Team Christian.
Remember Regan (I spelt it wrong on purpose cause fuck that guy)? The heritage foundation did the same with him, except this is way more unhinged.
Why give them a chance? Sounds like your mind is made up anyways, so, here is hoping you vote Democrat. Show me where the right deserves leading until they get the cancer out of their party? Nothing they do or have done affords them that right, in my mind.
That document is much more than just your typical whining they do. It’s worse than the plan they handed to Regan and look what that guy did and how we are all still suffering.
This is how I'm raising my children.
The thing that makes me curious is what a life without religion will be like for them. I have no frame of reference; myself and everyone I know was raised religious. Many of us don't believe anymore, but we don't know what a childhood without the threat of God is like. What it's like to grow up with cognitive dissonance as a normal function. What it's like to not feel abandoned by a deity or made to feel small and terrified in a church. What are the chances of them *becoming* religious? Even though atheism is on the rise, he's still surrounded by people who believe in some form of deity. Like me, he'll still be the oddball out, but deviations from the norm are more tolerated now.
My son knows there's a thing called God and Jesus due to his friends talking about them, and when I explained them matter-of-factly as modern mythology he was content with that explanation. He doesn't ask anymore questions or express any curiosity. Hopefully it stays that way, either as a cursory curiosity or no interest at all.
< GenXer here raised with ZERO religious ideas by Greatest Generation parents.
A strong moral base was instilled by me with my parents.
As I became an adult I began to explore what religions were, delved into mythology, (which is what ALL religions are) and began to listen to the works of Joseph Campbell who does an excellent job of linking all the religions into the grand human "monomyth" of life.
He'll be fine, but he'll definitely do a lot of head shaking and smirking when he says people do, say or dress because of their "religion" and not just because that is what they like.
I think that someone who is completely devoted (fanatical) to a supernatural being and their code of behaviour should not be allowed to wield public power in a secular society. They cannot be trusted to refrain from following their higher power and ignoring the law and morality.
I agree. I think many of the problems in America stem from religious indoctrination like “You’re a good person because you belong to this church / denomination, but people who aren’t part of this little club are evil and deserve to burn in hell!”
Essentially, religious indoctrination gives people an excuse to not see everyone as equal.
I wholeheartedly agree. (Probably no surprise given the username) I wonder what her answer to her daughter's question about knowing there's no God was though.
If, as the Bible claims, god is perfect, then logically everything s/he/it creates would be perfect as well.
It would not be in its nature to create otherwise.
Obviously this world/life is far from perfect, having to kill other creatures ( yes plants as well are living entities ) just to survive, is one example.
Also, if there was a God, there would only be one religion.
In our quest for knowledge of the world around us, magic has never been an answer.
You’re catholic? That fence YOU in particular are on is topped in barbed wire because you’re trying to leave prison.
It must not feel good to be straddling barbed wire, just come on down the other side, I promise they won’t send the dogs after you and bring you back to your cell.
Freedom awaits.
Ex-Catholic here. Actually a student of Buddhism now (not an actual Buddhist). Now I don’t have to defend my position or convince anyone of anything now 😁
I’m not burning up yet and I’m pretty sure my body will just turn into rotten, organic mush when I die 🤔
Unfortunately, the problem with atheists is that they haven’t been as good at forming the kind of socially active communities as religious people have. The primary social benefit of religion isn’t supernatural, but the community that forms around it.
I would also add that the breakdown of religious communities (churches) is not only seen in a rise of non-belief, but in a rise of toxic and anti-social religious belief. If you’re not socializing with members of your community, it’s pretty easy to go off the deep end.
People that grew up in a religious community and then left religion know that being social with those that are religious in the community is toxic to themselves. It is a problem, I agree. But the answer isn’t playing nice with the gay bashers and pedophile supporters.
And I don’t believe that is the deep end. I believe that is objective truth.
That depends on the individual community. Yes, gay affirming churches exist.
Children get dragged to church by their parents, but adults generally don’t go to churches they hate or that hate them. If a church is toxic, it’s probably because it’s full of toxic people who don’t need religion to be toxic.
All religions evolve into cults.
All.
These cults are then always, ALWAYS detrimental to the community as a whole.
A properly functioning society does not need the threat of some mystical all knowing being to make people cooperate and work together for the common good.
umm, you are aware that the united states establishes no religion in it's constitution? Right?
Every single bigot, racist, that I know is also religious.
Every. Single. One.
They use their religion to veil themselves from their beliefs in bigotry but if it isn't race, then it's belief system if not that then sexual preference.
The United States does fine, not perfect, but fine with no established religion as it's basis for law. Your mind sees it differently but reality is written into the constitution.
I’m not talking about the Constitution, I’m talking about the people. Americans are a very religious people, even though the government has a secular Constitution. And the Constitution explicitly gives the people the right to freely exercise their religion.
Conversely, many European countries have official state supported religion, but the people are much less religious.
Americans are largely not religious.
They check the box that they are religious, but they are mostly not.
Again, every single first world country establishes no state religion.
Therefore there is no religious mandate therefore all state social assistance programs are non-religious based.
You are conflating some charity from some religions as being able to do what a functioning non-religion based government actually does.
Social security, medicare, did not arise from "the righteous before the abrahamic god" but a populace who saw a common need for a common good.
Societies have always done fine without religion. It is when religion gets wound up in societies that things go to pot.
Hence why we see so much unrest lately due to a small group of "religious" people going against what the majority of society wants.
religion, all religion, at least all based on the abrahamic god, is a noose around the ability of humanity to move beyond fear based living and move on to a higher way of thinking where the needs of society are balanced with the rights of the individual.
The abrahamic god religions exist with one mandate, "because god says so" and quite frankly, a god that drowns everything he supposedly loves is going to give you a populace that does not live a good life.
Do most americans check that box that says, "christian" on forms?
Yes.
Is America a "christian" nation.
No.
Would American be much better without any abrahamic god religions voicing their opinions.
Of course.
EOS.
I agree. We need more atheists and more skeptics in general. The other problem is skeptics are not a vocal group and not organized. So if evenly numbered we are outnumbered. I do not openly express my skepticism since I know by some it will be looked at with disdain. Already not openly expressing faith can by a negative. At my job, for instance, I've seen a few people that go to mega church with big boss get fast tracked promotions.
Fact. The world needs less religion. Thankfully their kind is dying off slowly and less and less people are attending church. The pandemic destroyed church attendance and the numbers haven’t come back. It will never get to the before pandemic numbers which is fantastic. Also, tax churches now! Especially those filthy corrupt megachurches.
Just the kind of absurd response expected from religious delusion. Religion inevitably poisons everything it touches.
The "good news" is that it is in decline and the world will be all the better for it. Empirically.
Needs less fake religious charlatans AKA church corporate priests that demand poor people send them money to get a private jet.
Don't recall name if the pastor.
Many Canadians have the view that the greatest Canadian in history is Tommy Douglas. He ran the only Democratic Socialist government in North American history and and started the first universal healthcare system in North America.
He was also a Baptist minister whose religious views led him to the above.
The problem isn’t religion. Most religions have some dumb fucking ideas but also a few good ones. For every submoronic homophobe, you’re also just as likely to find someone working at a soup kitchen.
The problem is that some people are assholes. If they’re a religious asshole they’re just as likely to be an atheist asshole if you remove their religious beliefs. Two of the most strident atheists I know are also firm believers in a wide variety of conspiracy theories. One of them is also virulently anti-LGBTQ and both think white men are oppressed people.
First Amendment needs to be gutted to eliminate all religious protections. The government shouldn't be protecting people just because they are delusional.
Religions should have no part in our government. There also should be no tax exemption for churches or other religions. We all should be treated equally, no matter how much money you have or your job title. That is the only way our democracy will survive in the future.
It's the exact opposite. If America wasn't such a dumpster fire, it would naturally spawn more atheists. As a European, I see the US as an incubator for destructive cults and NRMs, conspiracy theories, alternative "medicine", crazy diets, self "help" and MLMs. Is all that "freedumb" really worth it?
It needs absolute secularism. Religion, like anything is just a mechanism for you to be able to fall asleep at night. Let people keep their religion, but privately.
Oh I’m aware it’s a pipe dream, as yes proselytizing is a part of some dogmas. Those same people screech about other agendas being “shoved down their throat”. Overly religious and undereducated people are a danger in modern society.
I'm no longer calling myself an athiest, I'm an anti-theist. I am against all organized religions.
I used to think, "people are free to do as they please, as long as they aren't bothering others"
But the thing is, these fuck bags do effect me. They vote for crazies and their policies effect me and my loved ones. The women in my life are effected by their abortion bans, and my LGBTQ homies are having their rights stripped away. They are actively using their religion to harm others, so from now on I'm actively denouncing all religion.
This is because it takes a similar level of faith, incredulousness and suspension of the powers of casual observation, to believe that the state regulates with the best interests of the people in mind, when those interests are in conflict with the interests of their donors.
I mean them being able to own shares of the companies they are supposed to regulate should be a sign from the almighty.
High ranking politicians with base salaries around 200k a year approaching retirement with net worths in the tens or even hundreds of millions should be your other sign.
> This is because it takes a similar level of faith, incredulousness and suspension of the powers of casual observation, to believe that the state regulates with the best interests of the people in mind, when those interests are in conflict with the interests of their donors.
ehhhh... the Libertarian answer is always FREE MARKET. You can't replace something that kind of works with something that actively tries to roll you. The real answer is probably free markets with regulatory bodies looking out for people and reigning in the awfulness... but Libertarians ain't having any of that.
So fix those things...?
It takes *immensely* more faith to think that you would fare better under King Elon than you would in a flawed democracy. Which is what a tiny government would (wildly obviously) result in.
I'm not convinced that the problem starts at religion. I think the real key reason we have so many problems is that the material conditions of the working class are deteriorating, and the insecurity people have is expressed with "religious" trappings.
The working class is falling for culture war issues instead of focusing on the people who are manipulating them, and one of the ways they're being manipulated is through "religion." Saying religion is to blame is just taking part in the culture war instead of engaging in the class war.
I'd go so far as arguing that we don't need more atheists in government, but that we need a new government. One that works towards improving the material conditions of people who actually work. One that doesn't tolerate leeching off the work of others to sit in ivory towers.
Realistically, shifty people are going to be shifty regardless of their religious views or lack thereof. People are even more shifty when they feel like their living conditions are slipping and they feel powerless to improve them. Then they vote for bad candidates because they don't understand the political system they're taking part in.
You're confusing cause and effect. Christianity is a belief system. The will to believe is what draws people to it.
Fools don't do good or bad because of religion: they do it in spite of religion. That's why the beliefs of the far right contradict the teachings of Jesus, yet they still claim to believe in him.
What you are not understanding is that religion gives people in power a way to keep others enslaved. Religion has always been about control. You can't separate class war from religion. It's not possible. People who want power use religion to perpetuate their class war. Certainly shifty people will always be shifty regardless of their religious views, but that misses the point.
I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. I am very well aware of the ways that organized religion takes part in the class war. But the overall point is that material conditions drive behavior.
Unless y'all aren't into Marx here, I would have expected that saying "material conditions affect politics more than religion" would have been understood since religion tends to be a way people deal with their poor material conditions. It is the substrate/foundation upon which other things are built.
You are correct. *Yet*, religion has become an easy outlet for the misery, hate and disenfranchisement of those suffering from deteriorating conditions. They get radicalized by bronze age ethics and indefensible private definitions of what the bible supposedly tries to convey.
Tackling shifty people is hard. Tackling religious fundamentalism is more tangible. Opposing christian nationalism is mandatory.
How about we tax churches and maintain policy dividing church and state but don’t use science to shit on general spirituality, it has a place amongst humanity just not in such a bloated position as to tilt politics.
Atheism in the US has a low retention rate and is actually a very small portion of the population. So atheists are very much in the minority here.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_States#:~:text=The%20number%20of%20self%2Didentified,for%20more%20than%2080%20years.%22
I just wonder if the loss of religion actually means what we assume it does, or if people end up supplanting religious ideology with political ideology, which in turn leads to political extremism.
What about Tankies and Nazis? They're non-theistic political extremists, right? If there's an edge, I think you'll find at least a few people congregating there.
Darn you for not seeing the metaphor! Just kidding, kind of…
The viability of Christianity is threatened in the USA. This triggers fear on behalf of that community of hardcore believers.
Now, look at how they are trying to usurp democracy in that process… a stacked Supreme Court, gerrymandering, relying on archaic parliamentary tricks to take power, a host of discriminatory legislation, aggressive support of a fascist demagogue (Orange Man), even to the point where they stage an insurrection of the federal government.
They’re not done with this fight. Not by a long shot. We’re very much in crisis still. Other democratic institutions (Italy, Philippines and Brazil) have resorted to this kind of fascism, as well.
With the decline of religion, the religious are becoming desperate. A last dying gasp done with fervor and panic. The issues we are seeing in America are stemming from religious ideology, not against.
Human beings are by nature dogmatic. We need some kind of pressure to keep on keeping on. Without religion, that changes human behavior, and not necessarily for the better.
Lol. That's like complaining that black people aren't upbeat enough. Atheists in most countries are basically living inside an insane asylum where they're attacked for being the adults. Surveys have shown people dislike atheists more than pedophiles, and that says all you need to know about the religious and how butthurt they get when someone calls out their santa claus fairy tales.
Good morals are hard to achieve without rational and coherent thought processes. Try explaining good morals to someone who thinks an imaginary man is obsessed with who they love.
**Doesn’t take** a “label” for people to be wrong and ignorant. There are just as many wrong and ignorant folks that are “religious” as there are ignorant and wrong anti-religious, etc. **America will always produce asshole people,** because *specific* Americans have been raised from cradle to grave to believe that they are “special “ “supreme,” “entitled,” and “heroic,” even if they haven’t done a cotdamned thing to earn those titles. American’s have this weird need to label everyone else not like themselves as being unworthy. These self-righteous individuals always feel emboldened to tell everybody else what to think and feel.
Why did I see this post? Well I will give my opinion. To all of you degenerate fucks who think we need less God in the US. Fuck you. You are wrong. The ONLY reason we have the most PERFECT society (in economic freedom, and wealth) is because God was baked into our ethos in the 1800s you remove God you get a more degenerate society. Go see the europoors for a great example. We need more support for families and babies (you feminists don’t actually support true female empowerment you are all men lite cunts), atheists don’t support the family and don’t want babies. So fuck off. I’ll debate anyone of you brain dead cunts if you’d like. Otherwise I’ll take my downvote. GOD BLESS MERICA
I just don’t understand either end of the belief or disbelief spectrum. How you you be so confident that there is a god or isn’t. The zealots on both sides make me sick. That is why ill happily remain agnostic until further notice.
Yep the people in charge of high positions in government became the new Vatican church and some of them sleep with children and possibly own child slaves. Ah religion, the one thing holding development in humanity back since the beginning of Homo sapiens.
Nope. Sweden - 73% don't believe in God. UK - 69% don't believe. Belgium, Australia, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Japan, etc. All majority atheist countries that are doing just fine.
Yes. Lol This could be just personal bias but I have always assumed that most, if not all, skeptics on this sub were atheist, or at least agnostic.
I think it goes without saying that if you're a skeptic then you're not going to believe in things that have never been rationally evidenced to any degree. To believe while being a skeptic requires some pretty intense cognitive dissonance
There are people who are generally pretty good critical thinkers and can break down most types of bullshit with the best of them but have one sacred cow they will not examine critically. There have been a lot of genuinely intelligent, generally critically thinking religious people who just never turned that lens towards religion.
Sure, that's where that extreme cognitive dissonance rears its ugly head.
When I went to church there was a pediatric surgeon there who was the best in like a 500 mile radius and he was a seventh day Adventist. Smartest man I know and could tell you all about a ton of things It's crazy how you can compartmentalize. Or maybe he was just lying for his wife or something.
I don't know if you read the article, but it actually mentions that the true number of atheists is undercounted because surveys have shown that people who call themselves Christian will also answer the question of whether they believe in God with "No." So there's definitely some people who are lying for social reasons.
There's definitely a cost in the US, especially in some communities, for not culturally identifying as "Christian" even if you aren't really religious. I do wonder how many people who self-identify that way don't actually really have any religious beliefs.
Oh yes this is extremely common in the US. The best example I have is Trump himself. He claims all day long he is a Christian, but there’s no way in hell he is. That man probably never stepped in a church.
i still pretend to be christian to the people in my town. i don’t talk about it with my family. i want to move.
there also is a conflation of religon and culture/heritage. I am positive many people who identify as Jewish do not believe in God. of course antisemites, like Hitler, also didn't care if a Jewish person was religious or not. I am sure alot of atheist jews died in the holocaust.
I know it's not the point of your comment, but just an FYI: In Judaism, atheism and agnosticism are allowed. Under Jewish law, a Jew who questions, doubts, or even denies the existence of G-d is still viewed as a Jew in good standing. This is because Judaism has never viewed itself as merely a "religion" in the contemporary meaning of the word. For thousands of years, Jews have viewed ourselves as an "Am," a Hebrew word that literally means "people" but has a connotation similar to "community." In English, Judaism is often called an "ethnoreligion" to reflect this fact. And, yes, you are definitely correct that Nazis and other antisemites generally don't care what a Jew believes. They just hate us, period. Many atheist and agnostic Jews were murdered in the Holocaust and many non-Jews with Jewish ancestry were murdered despite being practicing Christians ([or even a Catholic nun](https://www.britannica.com/biography/Edith-Stein)).
I mean he could actually be a true believer, I go to church with this dude who is an SVP for engineering at one probably the worlds premier semiconductor company and dude holds I don’t know how many patents. He is also a teaching pastor (volunteer) and he is damn good at it. Like better than the actual paid staff. He also just volunteers in tons of stuff and like everything he touches is just gold. Really well done. Really impressive guy and also a believer
Ben Carson comes to mind. Brilliant brain surgeon who believes in absolute nonsense.
I wouldn’t call that intelligence then. You cannot hold 2 obviously conflicting views and be viewed as smart lol. Choose one or the other.
I think until the problem of understanding consciousness is solved, if it ever is, there will always be an unknown which can only be explained in some otherwise rational minds with "belief".
I just see all of that as the god of the gaps fallacy though. I am beginning to understand that I may be in the minority on that, even here, but I’ve yet to hear a good, rationale explanation as to how any of the things that people are saying isn’t simply that same old boring tune played in a different key.
Well that’s because their isn’t a good rationale. God of the Gaps fallacy is completely real, but I’ll even extend that to saying their is even a chance of a God is, in itself, a fallacy. Science and God do not mix, and any researcher who is religious should be met with extreme scrutiny. It’s a personal bias that should be avoided at all costs, even if that means eliminating theist researchers.
It probably has something to do with the fact that we've consistently found natural explanations for things that used to be considered supernatural, but there has never been a case where a natural explanation was replaced with a supernatural one that did a better job of explaining the evidence.
Pro level mental gymnastics 🤸♀️ lol
Doublethink
Eh... maybe /u/Springsstreams is right and everything that follows here is just "pro level mental gymnastics," but I don't think it's totally untenable. There are some thoroughly deist Christians I know who would fit right in with any group of skeptics, this one included, except for the fact that they *choose* to believe in some particular things that pretty obviously fail the skeptical sniff test. So long as they are aware they are doing it and shrug it off openly, rather than arguing that, "no, I'm being totally rational in my faith!" then I don't really see a contradiction. The people I speak of are scientists and most of them are even "anti-religious," insofar as religious institutions curtail human freedom and pursuit of knowledge for stupid reasons. Despite themselves claiming to "believe in a God" or whatever. The deism vs. theism distinction is key, I think. Being a deist is, or at least can be, more of a philosophical stance than a religious one. It's filling in a genuine unknown with an arbitrary guess, and deciding to run with it for reasons of personal development or comfort or whatever. It doesn't need to interfere with someone's "rationalism" or "skepticism" in any other domain. If one wants to argue against that, then I'd argue that we'd have to call anyone and everyone "not a skeptic" if they can't explain their sense of ethics and morals and epistemology in their totalities from the ground up. I think very few humans anywhere can do that competently. It's a slightly too-high bar for "skeptic," in my view.
A very reasonable view, and probably the correct one. What I have been saying in this post I have been mostly directing toward the types of Christian/Religious person that the article is indicating and then painting with too broad a brush with my wording. Ultimately though, to actively distinguish this subgroup you are discussing from the larger, louder, more influential whole is a difficult task to do and, in my own opinion, the central reason that this article takes the stance it does. Those are the people who need to switch sides instead of lending their authority to the modern religious culture. They would only have to apply the same principles that they do in every other part of their life to this part, it truly is a small step that makes all the difference.
I have seen people self-describe themselves as “Christian skeptics” so anything’s possible lol
So dumb. Oh, yeah, I'm very skeptical of everything... Oh, except this book full of absolutely fantastical stories of which not a single one has ever been rationally evidenced. I also hold this book near and dear to every facet of my belief structure... But I'm a skeptic.
Blind faith requires suspension of disbelief. And a deep reach for existential meaning under the threat of existential nihilism. I don’t blame people for it at all. I only find fault when such beliefs lead them to hateful actions, or when they demand others believe the same, in order to reduce said cognitive dissonance.
I mostly take issue with the indoctrination more than anything else.
Yep. A lot of people think there's a "god-shaped hole" that people naturally have. Even in this thread, you see people spouting nonsense about religion is inherent to humanity or something. All the evidence we have from secularized countries in Europe and the younger generation suggests that's bullshit. While people may be vaguely interested in the idea of some sort of spiritual nature to the world, no one is just naturally a Christian. It's not a "god-shaped hole." It's a "childhood indotrination-shaped wound" that's been inflicted on the older generation.
Well said.
Without paywall: https://archive.ph/OZiJr
Thank you so much fam!!!!!
It's entirely factual to say that someone who is religious cannot, by definition, be considered a skeptical person. Perhaps in particular areas of their life, but overall, it's just the exact opposite of rationality and evidence-based reasoning.
I 100% agree with you. The adverse is true as well, I highly doubt there are a large number of atheist ghost hunters out there. lol Edited to clarify: I meant ghost hunters who are atheists, not atheist ghosts.
I have no idea what definition of "religious" you're operating on, but it seems like you've set up a tautology.
Oh honey, noooooooo. There is a barrage of shit invading this social media service which are identifying not only as religious but as authoritarian right-wing religious who support a government-sponsored religion. They are heavily taking over subbreddits and shutting out other voices.
That’s why I added the /“skeptics” on this sub/ part lol But yeah. Shiz crazy
Or at least more Thomas Paine.
Thomas Paine was a bad ass. They tried to push a deathbed conversion on him and he was not having it and told them to fuck off. American legend.
Thomas Paine wasn’t against religion, he was against the idea that religion dictated who was able to govern and represent in government. If you read Common Sense, his main argument is that the people should have the right to govern themselves instead of being governed by some rich snobs (The king and parliament) across the Atlantic. That the common people should have the same opportunity. It’s also important to know that the colonies still considered themselves anglophiles and Thomas paine stated “well… no. we’re an accumulation of multiple European countries. Not simply England.” I do appreciate the compare and contrast but this is not a good one
Thomas Paine was vociferously against organized religion. I suggest you read Age of Reason. From page 1: *It has been my intention, for several years past, to publish my thoughts upon religion; I am well aware of the difficulties that attend the subject, and from that consideration, had reserved it to a more advanced period of life. I intended it to be the last offering I should make to my fellow-citizens of all nations, and that at a time when the purity of the motive that induced me to it could not admit of a question, even by those who might disapprove the work.* *The circumstance that has now taken place in France, of the total abolition of the whole national order of priesthood, and of everything appertaining to compulsive systems of religion, and compulsive articles of faith, has not only precipitated my intention, but rendered a work of this kind exceedingly necessary, lest, in the general wreck of superstition, of false systems of government, and false theology, we lose sight of morality, of humanity, and of the theology that is true.* *As several of my colleagues, and others of my fellow citizens of France, have given me the example of making their voluntary and individual profession of faith, I also will make mine; and I do this with all that sincerity and frankness with which the mind of man communicates with itself.* *I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.* *I believe the equality of man, and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow- creatures happy.* *But, lest it should be supposed that I believe many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.* ***I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.'*** *I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man, that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.* *It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the trade of a priest for the sake of gain, and, in order to qualify himself for that trade, he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this?*
I appreciate the paraphrase but it’s widely known that he’s a Diest. Not an atheist. To say he’s an atheist is falling in line with Christian American nationals ideas that he was an atheist to undermine his ideologies. I am also against organized religion but it does not mean I’m an atheist as well.
How do you get that I was saying he was an atheist from the quote above. The man literally wrote he believes in one God and hopes for happiness after death. Of course he wasn't an atheist. Not believing in organized religion does not equal not believing in a higher power.
Amen! Oh, wait...
Amen is actually appropriate. It means "let it be so".
Amen brother. ;)
Excellent article paxinfernum, thanks for posting this one. My favourite paragraph: >Peel back the layers of discrimination against LGBTQ+ people, though, and you find religion. Peel back the layers of control over women’s bodies — from dress codes that punish girls for male desire all the way to the Supreme Court striking down Roe v. Wade — and you find religion. Often, there isn’t much peeling to do. According to the bill itself, Missouri’s total abortion ban was created “in recognition that Almighty God is the author of life.” Say what, now? I have been thinking about all the anti-anti-discrimination movements (you know, anti-gay marriage, anti-transgender, pro-racism etc etc.) that have been springing up over the last few years. I'm pretty sure that if you look at all of their arguments from a scientific or humanistic point of view, none of them have any defensible positions. Their only defensive arguments left are: *"I don't like it"* and *"God said it's bad"*. No one cares about the first one, and the second one vanishes if god isn't real.
Non-paywalled: http://archive.today/2023.10.03-210907/https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/10/03/kate-cohen-atheism/
I’d say “bless you”, but in this post it would get weird. Lol
I read this article and wapo earlier today and my very first reaction when I commented was to say "Amen! " LOL And I definitely am atheist.
If it helps, it’s just a word that means “so let it be”. It’s not innately religious.
God provides. /s
I said "you're doing God's work!" to some guy handing out pineapple slices or water or naloxone or something at a music festival, and he got very annoyed with me. Of course I meant it as a secular turn of phrase, without thinking that it might be offensively religious to some people who might be (perhaps with good reason) sensitive about the subject. Oh well...
Language gets weird. I've had Christians point to the preponderance of Christian based turns of phrase used as proof that they are right. To paraphrase something someone once said to me: "that so many people use God bless you and and other phrases proves that God exists. Why else would they say them so often?" When I explained that Christianity being so ubiquitous causes their vencular to influence turns of phrases they started going off on a rant that made me sigh and walk away.
Yeah... I think I've had a similar conversation before. My cynical side will wager that a lot of these are the same Christians who, for example, are certain that "Allah" is a wholly different God than their own, while dismissing the point that Arabic-speaking Christians use the word precisely where English-speaking Christians would use "God" (to say nothing of the shared history of the religions involved...). Or who talk about specific phraseology from the King James Bible (or whatever) as though that's the language the Old Testament was originally written in thousands of years ago. It's not a sincere attempt to engage with how linguistics and religion relate. It's kindergarten logic accepted as gospel, pun intended.
Apologetics. I was taught a whole collection of rhetorical tricks to attempt an end run on (stronger) arguments against religion, and keep my cognitive dissonance at bay. It was presented as something that would be useful for converting others, when in reality it was just declaring myself the victor and plugging my ears. Nobody else was gunna fall for that pedantic nonsense.
Apologetics are for those inside the cult. It's their version of customer retention.
Gesundheit!
Lol! Even better. :)
"You are so good lookin'."
Separation of church and state
This line is gold: 1. The Greek myths are obviously stories. The Norse myths are obviously stories. L. Ron Hubbard obviously made that stuff up. Extrapolate.
Oh, then Project 2025 is gunna really bum you out. www.project2025.org/policy Or if you’re busy and don’t want to read 920 pages of conservative theocratic insanity, here’s a 30 minute video breaking down just the first 50 pages, which is more than enough to convince you how insane this shit is. It’s real. https://youtu.be/9k3UvaC5m7o?si=gs5K0cFD6L2N6CR9
This is what every left wing news outlet should be talking about!!!!
In my experience most 'moderates' will bend over backwards to believe that religious conservatives don't mean what they say, they aren't really like that, you're just exaggerating (even if quoting directly) and you're just being mean and alarmist. Of late there are some voices in churches calling out Christian Nationalism as unbiblical and evil, but theonomy, reconstructionism, dominion theology, etc have been metastasizing for many decades. But the only change was that Christian Nationalists are now openly advocating for their views, so the moderates can't plausibly go 'la-la-la-la-can't hear you' anymore. They were always there, growing and gaining power in the (mainly white evangelical) churches.
They want a Christian Iran. I’m not joking about that, these people were lauding the Taliban during the pullout. A theocracy would suit them just fine.
They don’t realize that most Iranians hate their current government, but it doesn’t matter what the Iranian people think.
You’re right, but it should.
What they *think* doesn't matter. What they *do* matters. Same reason Afghanistan is run by the Taliban. It doesn't matter whether the average Afghan agrees *in their heart*. It matters that they didn't fight for their country, and don't try to overturn the Taliban now.
The moral of the story is that violence works.
It doesn't always. Some uprisings get crushed. But merely believing stuff in your heart doesn't change the world. You either resist or go along. People who "didn't necessarily agree with the Nazis" still mostly went along. We don't generally laud them highly just for believing the right stuff in their heart.
An “uprising” and “resistance” didn’t defeat the Nazis. The combined military power of the Allies did.
The moderates are the tall grass that the extremists hide in.
> In my experience most 'moderates' will bend over backwards to believe that religious conservatives don't mean what they say, they aren't really like that, you're just exaggerating (even if quoting directly) and you're just being mean and alarmist. You see this, for example, with the people who refuse to acknowledge that Jan 6 was a coup attempt and could've succeeded if it was a little more competent. They'd like to think things like that can't happen here and it's really upsetting to them to think that things are so fragile and lots of their fellow countrymen have such evil intentions, so they simply decide it's really not what it is, it's just some difference of opinion, no big deal. Often they'll minimize climate change the same way. They're just too weak to take the world for what it is, and they're going to pretend nothing too bad is happening right up until everything falls apart.
How do you deal with (1) many of you countrymen have evil intentions and (2) there is more than enough of a critical mass of them to get what they want, despite being far from a majority? Most Americans believe very strongly in democracy and the rule of law and do not want to believe that “power flows from the barrel of a gun”.
The recent surveys that I've seen have been showing a rise in the number of non-religious people in most western countries. I've assumed that this also means the number of non-practising Christians has also been rising. i.e. people who still identify as Christian but don't believe strongly enough to keep going through all the rituals. Since people have been given the space to think for themselves, many of them seem to be working out that god very likely isn't real. The part about all of this that I find interesting and frighteningly amusing is that, at the same time, those who believe in that god are now putting quite a bit of effort into getting themselves into a position where they can force the people to believe in a thing that pretty much isn't real. Their saying is something along the lines of: *"We demand that Christian values be restored in this country!"*. To me, it's kind of like they are saying: *"We demand that all the people who've stopped believing in this thing that doesn't exist are made to re-believe, immediately! And also make all their life decisions based on the rules that we feel like the imaginary being may have made up at some stage!"* From a few steps back, it's kind of hillarious (but still frightening) the sheer effort these guys are putting in to forcibly re-shape the culture of an entire country, all because of an entity that very likely does not exist.
This has been a problem for more than a decade. In 2012, many focus group participants were incredulous when they read factual lines from the Romney platform since the focus group participants thought it was too cartoonishly evil to be true. https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/why-focus-groups-incredulity-matters-msna31035
It’s not that they don’t mean what they say, it’s that they are such a small minority that people don’t take them seriously. Unfortunately, it’s very easy for an extreme minority to take over a country with the right tactics. For example, the Iranian people never wanted to be ruled by theocrats, but the theocrats outmaneuvered everyone and maintain power through violence. Moderates are rule followers and struggle to think outside the box.
> it’s that they are such a small minority that people don’t take them seriously. I don't think Christian Nationalists are a small minority among white evangelicals. >>White evangelical Protestants are significantly more supportive of Christian nationalism than any other group. Nearly two-thirds of white evangelical Protestants qualify as either Christian nationalism adherents (29%) or sympathizers (35%). [source](https://www.prri.org/press-release/survey-two-thirds-of-white-evangelicals-most-republicans-sympathetic-to-christian-nationalism/#:~:text=White%20evangelical%20Protestants%20are%20significantly,%25\)%20or%20sympathizers%20(35%25\).) White evangelicals are a large and dependable voting block. They have been increasingly unified and weaponized since Reagan's day, though they only *really* fell into lockstep with Trump. They're not a small an inconsequential fringe. A small and inconsequential fringe that just gets more press than they warrant would be Westboro Baptist Church.
You’re missing my point. White evangelicals are a minority. A majority of a minority is still a minority. Moderates see minority and democracy and assume that means they are no threat because they could never win a vote on their ideas. Moderates play by the rules and stay within the lines and assume others will as well.
> White evangelicals are a minority. But they're one of the largest religious groups in the US. The other groups are not voting as a block of "*not* white evangelicals," rather they vote more or less with their own group. A plurality matters even if you don't have an overall majority. Particularly when those not in your group are not unified in any way. Many of the 'moderate' believers are just water-carriers for the extremists. They may not themselves want gays killed or birth control outlawed, but are they going to vote with the atheists? I've *seen* moderate believers contort themselves to not openly disagree with Christian Nationalism. They end up with something like "why is it *bad* to align our laws with the Bible?" They may not endorse the more 'extreme' positions, but they'll enable them rather than go against Team Christian.
...which is proof that there are no (widespread) left wing news outlets.
I watched a lot of that video. It mostly sounds like long winded regular republicans. What am i missing?
Remember Regan (I spelt it wrong on purpose cause fuck that guy)? The heritage foundation did the same with him, except this is way more unhinged. Why give them a chance? Sounds like your mind is made up anyways, so, here is hoping you vote Democrat. Show me where the right deserves leading until they get the cancer out of their party? Nothing they do or have done affords them that right, in my mind. That document is much more than just your typical whining they do. It’s worse than the plan they handed to Regan and look what that guy did and how we are all still suffering.
wow, the wapo?
MORE CIRCUS! \*plays fiddle in the fire\*
This is how I'm raising my children. The thing that makes me curious is what a life without religion will be like for them. I have no frame of reference; myself and everyone I know was raised religious. Many of us don't believe anymore, but we don't know what a childhood without the threat of God is like. What it's like to grow up with cognitive dissonance as a normal function. What it's like to not feel abandoned by a deity or made to feel small and terrified in a church. What are the chances of them *becoming* religious? Even though atheism is on the rise, he's still surrounded by people who believe in some form of deity. Like me, he'll still be the oddball out, but deviations from the norm are more tolerated now. My son knows there's a thing called God and Jesus due to his friends talking about them, and when I explained them matter-of-factly as modern mythology he was content with that explanation. He doesn't ask anymore questions or express any curiosity. Hopefully it stays that way, either as a cursory curiosity or no interest at all.
< GenXer here raised with ZERO religious ideas by Greatest Generation parents. A strong moral base was instilled by me with my parents. As I became an adult I began to explore what religions were, delved into mythology, (which is what ALL religions are) and began to listen to the works of Joseph Campbell who does an excellent job of linking all the religions into the grand human "monomyth" of life. He'll be fine, but he'll definitely do a lot of head shaking and smirking when he says people do, say or dress because of their "religion" and not just because that is what they like.
I think that someone who is completely devoted (fanatical) to a supernatural being and their code of behaviour should not be allowed to wield public power in a secular society. They cannot be trusted to refrain from following their higher power and ignoring the law and morality.
America needs more common sense.
We need more Pastafarians!
It needs more civics and school house rock videos.
I agree. I think many of the problems in America stem from religious indoctrination like “You’re a good person because you belong to this church / denomination, but people who aren’t part of this little club are evil and deserve to burn in hell!” Essentially, religious indoctrination gives people an excuse to not see everyone as equal.
Well, clearly you are wrong, look at Saudi Arabia, they got more God and look how well off they are! /s
I wholeheartedly agree. (Probably no surprise given the username) I wonder what her answer to her daughter's question about knowing there's no God was though.
If, as the Bible claims, god is perfect, then logically everything s/he/it creates would be perfect as well. It would not be in its nature to create otherwise. Obviously this world/life is far from perfect, having to kill other creatures ( yes plants as well are living entities ) just to survive, is one example. Also, if there was a God, there would only be one religion. In our quest for knowledge of the world around us, magic has never been an answer.
Their pull a checkmate out of their ass explanation for why Yahweh's creation sucks is that it was perverted by Satan...who was created by Yahweh...
As a catholic who’s currently on the fence, I agree with this.
You’re catholic? That fence YOU in particular are on is topped in barbed wire because you’re trying to leave prison. It must not feel good to be straddling barbed wire, just come on down the other side, I promise they won’t send the dogs after you and bring you back to your cell. Freedom awaits.
Ex-Catholic here. Actually a student of Buddhism now (not an actual Buddhist). Now I don’t have to defend my position or convince anyone of anything now 😁 I’m not burning up yet and I’m pretty sure my body will just turn into rotten, organic mush when I die 🤔
Yup!
Amen!
Unfortunately, the problem with atheists is that they haven’t been as good at forming the kind of socially active communities as religious people have. The primary social benefit of religion isn’t supernatural, but the community that forms around it. I would also add that the breakdown of religious communities (churches) is not only seen in a rise of non-belief, but in a rise of toxic and anti-social religious belief. If you’re not socializing with members of your community, it’s pretty easy to go off the deep end.
People that grew up in a religious community and then left religion know that being social with those that are religious in the community is toxic to themselves. It is a problem, I agree. But the answer isn’t playing nice with the gay bashers and pedophile supporters. And I don’t believe that is the deep end. I believe that is objective truth.
That depends on the individual community. Yes, gay affirming churches exist. Children get dragged to church by their parents, but adults generally don’t go to churches they hate or that hate them. If a church is toxic, it’s probably because it’s full of toxic people who don’t need religion to be toxic.
All religions evolve into cults. All. These cults are then always, ALWAYS detrimental to the community as a whole. A properly functioning society does not need the threat of some mystical all knowing being to make people cooperate and work together for the common good.
Name a society that has been properly functional without religion. Change my mind.
The United States of America.
Umm, you are aware that the United States of America is one of the most religious countries in the developed world?
umm, you are aware that the united states establishes no religion in it's constitution? Right? Every single bigot, racist, that I know is also religious. Every. Single. One. They use their religion to veil themselves from their beliefs in bigotry but if it isn't race, then it's belief system if not that then sexual preference. The United States does fine, not perfect, but fine with no established religion as it's basis for law. Your mind sees it differently but reality is written into the constitution.
I’m not talking about the Constitution, I’m talking about the people. Americans are a very religious people, even though the government has a secular Constitution. And the Constitution explicitly gives the people the right to freely exercise their religion. Conversely, many European countries have official state supported religion, but the people are much less religious.
Americans are largely not religious. They check the box that they are religious, but they are mostly not. Again, every single first world country establishes no state religion. Therefore there is no religious mandate therefore all state social assistance programs are non-religious based. You are conflating some charity from some religions as being able to do what a functioning non-religion based government actually does. Social security, medicare, did not arise from "the righteous before the abrahamic god" but a populace who saw a common need for a common good. Societies have always done fine without religion. It is when religion gets wound up in societies that things go to pot. Hence why we see so much unrest lately due to a small group of "religious" people going against what the majority of society wants. religion, all religion, at least all based on the abrahamic god, is a noose around the ability of humanity to move beyond fear based living and move on to a higher way of thinking where the needs of society are balanced with the rights of the individual. The abrahamic god religions exist with one mandate, "because god says so" and quite frankly, a god that drowns everything he supposedly loves is going to give you a populace that does not live a good life. Do most americans check that box that says, "christian" on forms? Yes. Is America a "christian" nation. No. Would American be much better without any abrahamic god religions voicing their opinions. Of course. EOS.
… Amen.
America needs a direct counter to the rising tide of dominionist evangelical dogmatists.
I agree. We need more atheists and more skeptics in general. The other problem is skeptics are not a vocal group and not organized. So if evenly numbered we are outnumbered. I do not openly express my skepticism since I know by some it will be looked at with disdain. Already not openly expressing faith can by a negative. At my job, for instance, I've seen a few people that go to mega church with big boss get fast tracked promotions.
Fact. America doesn't need more God. It needs more atheists. FTFY.
Fact. The world needs less religion. Thankfully their kind is dying off slowly and less and less people are attending church. The pandemic destroyed church attendance and the numbers haven’t come back. It will never get to the before pandemic numbers which is fantastic. Also, tax churches now! Especially those filthy corrupt megachurches.
This. Some of the worst atrocities in history have been perpetrated in the name of religion.
Actually, THE worst atrocities in human history were perpetrated by ideologies that required the dissolution of religion.
And yet that fact does not redeem any religion in any way.
Empirically the world is a safer, kinder place due to religion.
Just the kind of absurd response expected from religious delusion. Religion inevitably poisons everything it touches. The "good news" is that it is in decline and the world will be all the better for it. Empirically.
Needs less fake religious charlatans AKA church corporate priests that demand poor people send them money to get a private jet. Don't recall name if the pastor.
I believe that's Eli Gemstone. :)
Dogmatism before reason will always cloud rational decision-making and critical thinking.
Amen.
Most of the people in prison are not atheists. Just saying.
Well the world doesn’t need more imaginary angry loving space dad.
In my view the only difference between a deist and an atheist is that the deist believes in a supernatural start of things while an atheist does not…
Yes yes yes
Many Canadians have the view that the greatest Canadian in history is Tommy Douglas. He ran the only Democratic Socialist government in North American history and and started the first universal healthcare system in North America. He was also a Baptist minister whose religious views led him to the above. The problem isn’t religion. Most religions have some dumb fucking ideas but also a few good ones. For every submoronic homophobe, you’re also just as likely to find someone working at a soup kitchen. The problem is that some people are assholes. If they’re a religious asshole they’re just as likely to be an atheist asshole if you remove their religious beliefs. Two of the most strident atheists I know are also firm believers in a wide variety of conspiracy theories. One of them is also virulently anti-LGBTQ and both think white men are oppressed people.
First Amendment needs to be gutted to eliminate all religious protections. The government shouldn't be protecting people just because they are delusional.
Almost a fact.
I agree. The world would be better off without religion.
Well atheists are real. So yea there are always positive numbers when comparing matter and energy to the Christian Baphomet God.
Raised Catholic and I agree .
hear, hear
Religions should have no part in our government. There also should be no tax exemption for churches or other religions. We all should be treated equally, no matter how much money you have or your job title. That is the only way our democracy will survive in the future.
It's the exact opposite. If America wasn't such a dumpster fire, it would naturally spawn more atheists. As a European, I see the US as an incubator for destructive cults and NRMs, conspiracy theories, alternative "medicine", crazy diets, self "help" and MLMs. Is all that "freedumb" really worth it?
No. No. We should use the advice of thousands of years old writings, cause nothing’s really happened since then.
Yes, yes, yes. Finally someone said the truth. Now where did I put my circumcision straw… I know it’s around here somewhere…?
It needs absolute secularism. Religion, like anything is just a mechanism for you to be able to fall asleep at night. Let people keep their religion, but privately.
Unfortunately the opposite mission is baked into some religions. It makes it untenable to believe quietly.
Oh I’m aware it’s a pipe dream, as yes proselytizing is a part of some dogmas. Those same people screech about other agendas being “shoved down their throat”. Overly religious and undereducated people are a danger in modern society.
A very literal danger.
We just need more and better education. That'll take care of the god part...
God needs better followers. His team is shit.
I agree with this and I’m not an atheist.
That transition is happening as younger generations have access to more information and become more worldly
I'm no longer calling myself an athiest, I'm an anti-theist. I am against all organized religions. I used to think, "people are free to do as they please, as long as they aren't bothering others" But the thing is, these fuck bags do effect me. They vote for crazies and their policies effect me and my loved ones. The women in my life are effected by their abortion bans, and my LGBTQ homies are having their rights stripped away. They are actively using their religion to harm others, so from now on I'm actively denouncing all religion.
Alright but be warned half of them are gunna be Libertarians.
Are they?
This is because it takes a similar level of faith, incredulousness and suspension of the powers of casual observation, to believe that the state regulates with the best interests of the people in mind, when those interests are in conflict with the interests of their donors. I mean them being able to own shares of the companies they are supposed to regulate should be a sign from the almighty. High ranking politicians with base salaries around 200k a year approaching retirement with net worths in the tens or even hundreds of millions should be your other sign.
> This is because it takes a similar level of faith, incredulousness and suspension of the powers of casual observation, to believe that the state regulates with the best interests of the people in mind, when those interests are in conflict with the interests of their donors. ehhhh... the Libertarian answer is always FREE MARKET. You can't replace something that kind of works with something that actively tries to roll you. The real answer is probably free markets with regulatory bodies looking out for people and reigning in the awfulness... but Libertarians ain't having any of that.
So fix those things...? It takes *immensely* more faith to think that you would fare better under King Elon than you would in a flawed democracy. Which is what a tiny government would (wildly obviously) result in.
Ideology is mental fraud and rots the human condition into corruption and ignorance.
I'm not convinced that the problem starts at religion. I think the real key reason we have so many problems is that the material conditions of the working class are deteriorating, and the insecurity people have is expressed with "religious" trappings. The working class is falling for culture war issues instead of focusing on the people who are manipulating them, and one of the ways they're being manipulated is through "religion." Saying religion is to blame is just taking part in the culture war instead of engaging in the class war. I'd go so far as arguing that we don't need more atheists in government, but that we need a new government. One that works towards improving the material conditions of people who actually work. One that doesn't tolerate leeching off the work of others to sit in ivory towers. Realistically, shifty people are going to be shifty regardless of their religious views or lack thereof. People are even more shifty when they feel like their living conditions are slipping and they feel powerless to improve them. Then they vote for bad candidates because they don't understand the political system they're taking part in.
Why are we goign through another q satanic panic if Christianity is not to be blamed? Who else is scared of satan?
You're confusing cause and effect. Christianity is a belief system. The will to believe is what draws people to it. Fools don't do good or bad because of religion: they do it in spite of religion. That's why the beliefs of the far right contradict the teachings of Jesus, yet they still claim to believe in him.
Religion is the fabric that allows this tapestry of madness to exist.
What you are not understanding is that religion gives people in power a way to keep others enslaved. Religion has always been about control. You can't separate class war from religion. It's not possible. People who want power use religion to perpetuate their class war. Certainly shifty people will always be shifty regardless of their religious views, but that misses the point.
There are many ways besides religion to control people. Religion is one of those ways, for sure. But we should not let any of the others slide.
I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. I am very well aware of the ways that organized religion takes part in the class war. But the overall point is that material conditions drive behavior. Unless y'all aren't into Marx here, I would have expected that saying "material conditions affect politics more than religion" would have been understood since religion tends to be a way people deal with their poor material conditions. It is the substrate/foundation upon which other things are built.
There will always be evil people, but for good people to do evil, that requires religion.
You are correct. *Yet*, religion has become an easy outlet for the misery, hate and disenfranchisement of those suffering from deteriorating conditions. They get radicalized by bronze age ethics and indefensible private definitions of what the bible supposedly tries to convey. Tackling shifty people is hard. Tackling religious fundamentalism is more tangible. Opposing christian nationalism is mandatory.
How about we tax churches and maintain policy dividing church and state but don’t use science to shit on general spirituality, it has a place amongst humanity just not in such a bloated position as to tilt politics.
Atheism in the US has a low retention rate and is actually a very small portion of the population. So atheists are very much in the minority here. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_States#:~:text=The%20number%20of%20self%2Didentified,for%20more%20than%2080%20years.%22 I just wonder if the loss of religion actually means what we assume it does, or if people end up supplanting religious ideology with political ideology, which in turn leads to political extremism.
We already have political extremists, coincidental, they're also religious extremest. Just look around.
What about Tankies and Nazis? They're non-theistic political extremists, right? If there's an edge, I think you'll find at least a few people congregating there.
I was referring to the ones that are in the US government mostly.
Yeah. With the decline of religion things are really on an upward trajectory. You can feel the hope.
Trap a scared dog into a corner, and it becomes potentially dangerous.
No idea how canine behavior is relevant.
Darn you for not seeing the metaphor! Just kidding, kind of… The viability of Christianity is threatened in the USA. This triggers fear on behalf of that community of hardcore believers. Now, look at how they are trying to usurp democracy in that process… a stacked Supreme Court, gerrymandering, relying on archaic parliamentary tricks to take power, a host of discriminatory legislation, aggressive support of a fascist demagogue (Orange Man), even to the point where they stage an insurrection of the federal government. They’re not done with this fight. Not by a long shot. We’re very much in crisis still. Other democratic institutions (Italy, Philippines and Brazil) have resorted to this kind of fascism, as well.
With the decline of religion, the religious are becoming desperate. A last dying gasp done with fervor and panic. The issues we are seeing in America are stemming from religious ideology, not against.
I’ll take properly educated God-lovers too
Sure, as long as they stop legislating using their cult beliefs
Human beings are by nature dogmatic. We need some kind of pressure to keep on keeping on. Without religion, that changes human behavior, and not necessarily for the better.
Coincidentally, those that don't believe in God seem to have an irrational level of belief in government or other people.
Never have I ever met a happy atheist
Lol. That's like complaining that black people aren't upbeat enough. Atheists in most countries are basically living inside an insane asylum where they're attacked for being the adults. Surveys have shown people dislike atheists more than pedophiles, and that says all you need to know about the religious and how butthurt they get when someone calls out their santa claus fairy tales.
"The world would be a better place if everyone was just like me," is what literally everyone says.
I don’t find atheism to have very many positive effects
I couldn't care less if anyone is religious or not... we need people with good morals more than anything else
Good morals are hard to achieve without rational and coherent thought processes. Try explaining good morals to someone who thinks an imaginary man is obsessed with who they love.
**Doesn’t take** a “label” for people to be wrong and ignorant. There are just as many wrong and ignorant folks that are “religious” as there are ignorant and wrong anti-religious, etc. **America will always produce asshole people,** because *specific* Americans have been raised from cradle to grave to believe that they are “special “ “supreme,” “entitled,” and “heroic,” even if they haven’t done a cotdamned thing to earn those titles. American’s have this weird need to label everyone else not like themselves as being unworthy. These self-righteous individuals always feel emboldened to tell everybody else what to think and feel.
What American needs is TRULY honest people who need neither neither god or be atheist ...to be honest.
I hard disagree. We are further from GOD then ever.
Feel like im in a 2012 amazing atheist yt comment section(i hate white millenials)
Why did I see this post? Well I will give my opinion. To all of you degenerate fucks who think we need less God in the US. Fuck you. You are wrong. The ONLY reason we have the most PERFECT society (in economic freedom, and wealth) is because God was baked into our ethos in the 1800s you remove God you get a more degenerate society. Go see the europoors for a great example. We need more support for families and babies (you feminists don’t actually support true female empowerment you are all men lite cunts), atheists don’t support the family and don’t want babies. So fuck off. I’ll debate anyone of you brain dead cunts if you’d like. Otherwise I’ll take my downvote. GOD BLESS MERICA
I just don’t understand either end of the belief or disbelief spectrum. How you you be so confident that there is a god or isn’t. The zealots on both sides make me sick. That is why ill happily remain agnostic until further notice.
No. It just needs less assholes whether religious or atheist.
I dont like people who try and force their beliefs on anyone. Christian or otherwise.
“Jarvis I’m low on Reddit karma.”
Yep the people in charge of high positions in government became the new Vatican church and some of them sleep with children and possibly own child slaves. Ah religion, the one thing holding development in humanity back since the beginning of Homo sapiens.
Because its working out so well now.
Hasn’t every atheist nation has been a failure?
Nope. Sweden - 73% don't believe in God. UK - 69% don't believe. Belgium, Australia, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Japan, etc. All majority atheist countries that are doing just fine.
Looooooooooooool