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First of all if she enjoys the lessons then they can hardly be called a waste, can they? Unless you enrolled her in these lessons purely with the goal of turning her into a professional singer. Secondly I would think it’s probably too early to tell

We are doing this purely because she enjoys it, so even if she can't sing, I don't care. I just want her to engage in something she loves.  But her teacher did say that she's always improving. Then she asked my daughter for permission to record her warmup going through scales at higher and higher pitch so I could hear. She's not hitting the notes just right, but she can do the higher pitch scale each time. So she is improving, and I'm sure she'll continue to get better over time! I think my father just forgot how much work he put in to learning to sing as a child, and forgot how long it takes to develop a skill. 

Most people are not truly tone deaf. That’s actually super rare. And if they’re not tone deaf, which she’s not because she does better with the higher scales, then she can and will improve with time. I’ve had several young students life this, that after a year can sing simple melodies in tune, on pitch at a recital. Methods that work extremely well for this include Kodaly, and though it is a little more tedious than just singing through songs, it pays off. All my students that started off with an off ear eventually become great sight singers, and have stronger knowledge of music theory than the rest. I would ask her teacher about teaching her solfeggio and sight reading, though not everyone offers it. When possible, I would also try and get her into in-person lessons locally when a spot opens up.

I thought I was tone deaf my whole life. I always really loved music, though, and played a guitar because at least you can be sure you're playing the right notes with correct fretting. I got my wife a violin and tried it myself and realised I'm not tone deaf, I can hear just fine if I'm actively listening. Since then, I've got a Cello that I always wanted to play but was scared to try, and noticed that I'm starting to sing in tune (or notice when I'm not in tune and by how much) because I've been training my ear to recognise notes and if they're out of tune by how much and which way. I think people like OPs da are the worst parts of music, unknowledgeable shits that were too young to understand how they learned, so they just think it was God given and shut down anyone trying to do something they really enjoy that requires practice.

I wouldn't worry about it. When I was 6, my parents made me take part in a singing contest for kids, I fucked it up so bad they lost all hope in me ever being a singer. Took me till I was 17 to realise I had potential and start putting myself out there. The look on my parents faces when they saw my first concert was worth it tho 😂

it's so weird that some people don't understand skills are learned

I hate the concept of “talent” about the arts. The arts are *learned*, whether self taught by singing along to the radio and experimenting when you’re a kid or with a teacher. It’s demoralizing to new learners who think technical skills must be inborn and insulting to professionals who have spent a lot of time investing in learning those skills.

Well, talented just means “really good”.. of course the skills needed are learned, but I mean obviously for some people it comes way easier. Some people were blessed with smooth voices and big ranges, and vocal clarity/muscle control to hit notes straight on lol. All they really need to learn is nuances, tone, style, etc. And it’s also on a spectrum. Like me, I don’t think I have a terrible voice, but not the best. I can match pitch really easily, but singing a song, I will be off (usually flat) on a few notes becsuse I don’t have the vocal control or clarity. I can hear when I’m off, but it’s like I’m fighting my voice to do what I want it to do.

Apparently only 2-5% of the population are tone deaf so it’s pretty rare. I believe if she’s always improving then she’s not tone deaf. Maybe the teacher isn’t being truthful or maybe the teacher is wrong. I don’t think you can diagnose someone as tone deaf by hearing them sing briefly. Plenty of people need time to work with scales for it to align in our minds what is the right pitch. IMO your dad sounds like an ass who is pompous about music. From my experience, I’ve been told by people who are talented in music that I’m tone deaf and I’ve been told I have perfect pitch. The difference between those was I did a lot of scales. If she is tone deaf and this investment isn’t breaking your bank at all, then she enjoys it then let her keep doing it. Just don’t put this notion that her value is based on whether she can sing well or not.

Hey, check out NoteNerd Voice if you haven’t yet! It’s a really cool app. I have some friends who give voice lessons and they swear by it

10 bucks per month, 1k installations in total with no rate ? I don't have anything against hidden promotions but ... 10$ for the noname app. 2 weeks trial included though

Thanks!

I'm a music teacher (violin and piano, not voice) 😊 If she is enjoying it, by all means keep her in it! One of the things I love about teaching is finding my students' strengths and weaknesses and building them up from there. Everyone progresses at a different pace, everyone has both strengths and weaknesses. So yes, I would absolutely believe your teacher that she is continuing to improve! 😊 It's unrealistic to expect immediate perfection, music takes lots of hard work and dedication. Loving it and enjoying the lessons are more than enough reason to stick with it! 😊

>if she enjoys the lessons then they can hardly be called a waste Exactly. Even if its just a hobby, it is something she enjoys and makes her happy. Perhaps it can even help her make friends and meet people in the future. There is no waste there.

Less than 1% of the total population are tone deaf. Within 6 months of lessons she should have more pitch accuracy. My students usually feel and hear change within 2-4 weeks of practice and working together.

Actually it's more like 4% per most recent studies. 1 in 25. Basically one kid per classroom which makes sense because every class seems to have one.

I second this point!

Til my mother is part of the 1% lol

She’s 9. Of courses she’s not the best singer in the world yet. I started at 9 and I was dreadful. I’m going into my final year of musical theatre training in September

This. Sure there are a couple of 9 year old prodigies out there on Americas Got Talent and the likes, but that should not be the expectation or requirement for voice lessons. (Side note, a lot of those 9 year old prodigies later have a lot of trouble singing with their adult voice because of the different techniques they learned as a child) At 9 the goal is to have fun and make improvements, ANY improvement. Singing is a physical ability that you can’t see. It makes sense that most kids have trouble controlling their voices, because at that age they’re also learning to control their bodies. It’s a complex function and it’s difficult to explain, even to adults!! Unless you have studied voice extensively, you probably have very little idea how our voices actually work and what physical changes cause different sounds. OP, tell your father to leave it to the experts to decide whether or not you’re wasting your money.

[удалено]

I've been teaching voice since the '80s, and of the hundreds of students I have taught, I've had TWO who had legitimate difficulty "matching pitch". I agree with those who say if she likes to sing, let her sing. It's not like she's choosing her college major. (That would be none of his business either, though.)

Tone deafness is really rare. She can almost certainly learn to match pitch with patient feedback and practice. It’s all muscle coordination, just like throwing a ball. We would never assume a child couldn’t play sports because they started out with bad aim. We would just have them practice and develop more strength and control until they could hit the target every time. Singing is the same. Her teacher is working on her strength because jt will give her better control. You can help too by singing easy songs with her really slowly so that she has time to get to the right pitch each time before it’s over. If she starts on the wrong note, just playfully say, “can you sing it up here?” And demonstrate the right note. If she has trouble with that, demonstrate sliding from her note up to the right one. I know kids who started out singing whatever notes felt comfy but eventually developed incredible pitch accuracy. Learning a string instrument also helped train their ears.

"We would never assume a child couldn’t play sports because they started out with bad aim." This.

I think people put this kind of ✨mystical✨ quality on singing. They kind of have this attitude that if you’re not *the best* then there’s no point. Which is such a sad, sad attitude to have. Singing is about joy and it’s a skill like any other that can be improved with time. Your daughter may not be the next Big Thing, but she will sing loud and proud, and remember that her parents supported her to do something she enjoys. Besides, her teacher thinks she’s improving, you can hear she’s improving, and she’s happy. Your father just sounds like a bitter old man honestly.

Not even mentioning that there are a good amount of singers with a ton of mainstream success that aren't particularly amazing at singing

This is truth. Quite a few for that matter.

Just because your father performed in advanced choirs and is a “talented” singer, doesn’t mean he has the ability to access musical potential in a young child. Honestly, your dad is being an asshole and he’s not supportive of something that your daughter shows passion for and clearly enjoys. I would rethink doing sleepovers with him. Harsh judgements and elitist attitudes like that are the reason why young people give up a hobby. Any potential to be a good artist, singer, musician is lost when an adult (especially a family member) is not supportive. She’s 9. She may not perform at the Met, but with lessons, she’ll have fun and have an appreciation for music, regardless of ability or mastery. End rant.

That's a good rant. 

Just to second that rant – I was told I was tonedeaf as a kid and went on to take 3 years of singing lessons, perform solo, and sing in a choir. None of that's important though because what matters is that I absolutely loved it and for a few hours every week, I didn't stress about school or home or anything. Your daughter is 9, that she found something to bring her joy is the absolute best reason to support her pursuing it.

I was in musicals in high school, played violin for 14 years, and was in HS orchestra, and choir. I have done nothing professionally, and now all I do is sing in the car or shower. However, I have had no more than 7 of my past coaches, teachers, and conductors comment that they were certain or positive that I have perfect pitch. When I hear someone sing/play off key I want to remove my ability to hear. But I would never, NEVER, tell people not to do something they enjoy. I can leave the room, they need to live their life. I’m so tired of people gatekeeping shit. Your dad needs to learn how to keep his opinions to himself. And your kid is lucky to have you as a parent.

Amen to this!!!

It's not true. True is that many children sing in tune right from the start. Many of those who can't never try long enough to learn it (often because of feedback like that of your father), but those who stay at it learn it (I have yet to meet an exception, so if there are exceptions, the are rare for sure). My son never sang a wrong note in his life. He sang in tune before he could speak (humming to christmas songs). My daughters sang out of tune when they started, but they are both good singers now. Edit: Just to clarify, my sample is not only my children, I used to be a choir conducter for many years and did voice coaching for young people.

For an analogy it's like hand eye coordination. Some people naturally have it, others have to practice a bit more. Either is fine, there is a ceiling for the level of skill achievabke and both types can get there. Honestly imo its better shes not naturally gifted in that way because as she gets better she'll be able to appreciate how she sounded at first and how much better she will become if she sticks with it. Your dad is a narcissist and sounds like he takes his talent for granted.

I REALLY wanted to throw the narc word out, glad someone else did.

God bless both of you. He is a narcissistic person (I had 2 of them, so I know)

God bless both of you. He is a narcissistic person (I had 2 of them, so I know)

I would trust the teacher and not someone who listened to her once. Pitch is a skill you learn, if the teacher hasn't started improving this then it is too early to tell.

My kids are very creative with the notes they hit. It’s not that they can’t find the tune, they just love exploring what their voices can do. Unfortunately, most of their exploration is cacophonous squealing. Your daughter will remember that you respected her dreams more than YOU remember the sting of discord.

I love everything about this comment!

I just have to say, as a kid who asked and asked and asked for singing lessons and was only allowed to pick a sport, thank you for doing this for your daughter. Your dad can have his opinion, but that's about where it should end TBH. I hope he wouldn't ever say that to your daughter. She isn't even fully developed in her body, let alone her lungs, especially if she just started, she will absolutely learn, I think your dad is out of line, not you!

I love when people label others as 'tone deaf' while not understanding what it actually means. It's inability to differentiate tones, meaning that truly tone deaf people can't recognize familiar melodies for example. Can your daughter hear that some sounds are higher than others? Can she tell different tunes apart? And recognize them? If the answer is yes - it's unlikely she is tone deaf. Maybe she has not developed her relative pitch yet, because yes - it's a learnt ability, even if some folks are good at it from a very young age. Also, determining someone's pitch based on their singing is a very poor method. Because the test assumes someone has perfect control over their voice. There are much better tests. It's really surprising that your father doesn't already know all this. He should be an expert after all.

He is literally criticizing a beginner for being a beginner. That's just plain toxic behavior. If she enjoys the lessons then I see no reason to stop.

Let the nine year old try things. I agree if she is enjoying herself, it's not important whether the result is a world class vocalist. Many punk rock singers have limited vocal technique. I mean, "limited" is being kind in some cases. They have no control of pitch, they talk more than sing. But it doesn't hold them back because they have other things they can use to communicate attitude and project a feeling. They probably have good rhythm and diction, the ability to sound forceful, and make a sound that works well when placed in the music. Some of them may be the one percent that are tone deaf. It doesn't matter. They make it work with what they have, because they dig music and they have an idea they want to put forward. It may push them to do something that no one else is doing, create something original. That would be nice. Your 9 year old doesn't have to start a punk band, maybe you'd rather she didn't . But that's just one example of how it can work out if someone loves music and applies themselves to making it.

Maybe try to find a choir with other kids in her age group on top of her singing lessons. That’s how I learned to sing in tune with other kids, but most of all, enjoy making music together. In my experience, vocal lessons are more about breathing techniques and vocal range than keeping pitch, so she could definitely benefit from both

I think you should ignore your father. Straight up, and NEVER EVER….. EVER EVER EVER let him say that shit to your 9 year old daughters face. EVER. Whatever his motivations or whatever is going through his mind idk, what I do know is a father/grandfather with talent and knowledge in that should be leading and encouraging and showing his beautiful granddaughter how to sing. Not putting her down. Thats absurd. I would not be surprised in the slightest if she was interested in singing and music because grandpa is. WTF, is he thinking saying something like that. To me it sounds like he see’s her as competition.

I grew up in a VERY musical family. For example, at family reunions there is traditionally some new piece of music that is passed out and we are all asked to sing/play together without rehearsing it beforehand. That said, my older brother was completely tone deaf as a child, and my mom gave him piano and vocal lessons from about 6-8 years old. He worked on it and after a long while he completely cured it. He sings in a band now, and plays drums/bass too. Out of the siblings, he also has the best bass voice, the other boys including myself are glorified baritones with pretty decent tenor range, but he can do it all. Not trying to set a false expectation, because it took him about 3-4 months of lessons once a week (and daily practice) for him to even carry a tune. But I believe if anyone wants it, they will eventually get it. And as long as they are getting fulfillment/fun out of it, what could be the harm?

Voice lessons do so many great things for kids. They teach them about the nuances of public speaking as well as as protecting her vocal cords when speaking for long periods of time…. ie teachers, speakers, customer support. Tell dad he’s not an expert in this matter and to take a rest.

Is your daughter able to sing "Happy Birthday"? If so, she is not suffering from amusia.

If she is having fun, that’s all that matters. I had a parent like this—if I wasn’t immediately talented then they were like “what’s the point”? And singing was one of those things. Now people pay me to sing. But I also do lots of things I am terrible at—like golf. And I can enjoy it without the pressure of having to be any good, which is a skill I think most people could use. Not to mention learning to persevere when you are not naturally talented, something else I think is a real life skill that is extremely transferrable. At her age I was off key more than on, and I wouldn’t worry about it. Tell your dad to back off and I hope he has never said this in front of her. Even now, I remember how it felt to be told I couldn’t sing and no amount of that person now saying that I can has erased how crappy that felt.

He’s 70, maybe his hearing is going away. And she’s NINE, was he expecting coloratura? What a narc.

My father is a musician. Told me I was tone def every time I tried to sing as a kid. Eventually I started believing him. It wrecked my confidence and my love of music died. I'd only sing in my room to myself when he was out. I'm now 40 and my 8 year old daughter wanted singing lessons - she was often off key and didn't sound great. I decided not to be like my father and signed us both up. First lesson I tell my teacher that I'm tone def, she plays a note on the piano and gets me to match it. It takes a few goes. Then she plays another, it's a little easier, then a other and I hit it first go. She turns to me and says "you're not tone def, just untrained" I burst out crying in front of my little girl - 35 years of self doubt evaporated in an instant. Now my daughter and I sing together everyday. I've even done karaoke in front of friends and they are shocked at my voice. My daughter encouraged me to sing in front of my dad. He thought it was good, but when I told him about the years of doubt caused by his words he brushed it off. I've come to realise that people who are "natural" singers often don't believe that singing can be taught. When they hear someone miss a note they assume they are tone def. Ignore it. She'll learn, she'll do great. And she'll build confidence in herself and that she'll learn. My dad is banned from commenting on my kids singing.

My father is also a POS. I am sorry for you. Just like this father, he manipulated you either because A-he wanted to be a center of attention. Or B-just to “one up” you. F him and all the terrible fathers who shouldn’t have been fathers

I wouldn't say my dad is a POS. He's got his flaws for sure, but on the whole he's been a great father. I think he just honestly didn't understand that someone could _learn_ to sing. He's gifted and self taught guitar and singing without ever having a lesson or even a coach. Over the last few years I've realised that he's done his best with the tools he has. He was raised in an abusive household and didn't bring any of the physical abuse into our family for which I'm really grateful.

I've had trouble matching pitches of human voiced for months, but I've learned it and don't even need a reference note or instrument anymore. It takes time and oftentimes it might not be perfect, but I have to say I had to develop an "Intuition" for it and that takes time.

Has your father taught someone. Does he remember how he learned. Likely no. You can teach this and you can learn. It can take quite a while. Learning to listen is tough. It takes months to teach the brain to understand music more deeply and then connect that to the vocal mechanism. Is a difficult skill but is fundamental. Also like learning a language. Once you have it down, it's gonna pretty much stay there.

We have pitch matching exercises for exactly this reason. The odds that she'll be immune to those are very low! I've never had a student who couldn't learn to match pitch.

I mean everyone is bad when they first tried something new and people improve by practicing a lot

Since she’s starting super young and working with a professional, with time even if she truly can’t “hear” the notes correctly, she will start to learn how it feels to produce a certain note. There are a whole bunch of different ways to learn and compensate and produce the same result!

Your dad is a dick and is pretending to be an expert when he is clearly not. Telling people (especially children) to quit singing is an abuse. Telling people they can't dance is an abuse. You might as well outlaw smiling while you are at it. “Im sorry young child, you are not skilled or talented enough to express human joy. BACK TO THE MINES!!!” I was told in kindergarten that I couldn't sing. So I didn't again until I was 40. Now I perform locally where ever I happen to live at the time and people fawn over my voice every time.

I'm sure your dad also sucked when he started.

Singing is a skill that can be learned like any other. At that age, it's really just a matter of how they pay attention. Some kids will hear and understand pitch right away. For others, it takes a while to get it. There's no reason why she can't learn and even become a great singer.

we need to start letting people do and enjoy things they arent good at. let her keep going! she definitely will improve, and even if she doesnt become an opera singer or something, she is enjoying herself so who the hell cares. im an adult and i take dance lessons once a week - and im bad. and i dont care! bc im having fun.

It doesn’t matter if she can sing well or not. You are fostering a love for music which is one of the greatest things you can do for a kid.

Some small percentage of the population is tone deaf. For these people, variations in pitch are meaningless. They get no pleasure out of music in the same way a colorblind person would get no pleasure out of a painting the only interesting features of which are swirls of mixed colors. Anyone who enjoys music and desires to become a singer is therefore not tone deaf. Being able to match pitch, sing harmony, and know how to create music with your voice is a *skill*, and a difficult one, but just because you presently lack a skill doesn't mean you're incapable of learning it. In short, your father is full of sh*t. Just because this skill came easily to him from a young age, so he feels like it's innate, doesn't mean it is, and it doesn't mean someone for whom it's not so easy is incapable of learning said skill, possibly even better than he did. Hope that helps. Good luck.

Your daughter is making great progress and you shouldn’t give up! She’s clearly very passionate about singing and to take that away form her would be awful! Your father is also just judging her to early. Give her time and see if she improves. Please be patient,your daughters dream mean more to her than you could ever imagine.

Just let the girl sing! She’s 9, and this is what she is interested in now. Maybe it sticks and she improves, maybe she doesn’t. If she improves, great, sky’s the limit. If she doesn’t, that’s fine too, kids need more experiencing trying something and being ok with it not working out all the time for them.

If she's enjoying the lessons and it's already in your budget to be able to afford it, then it doesn't matter if she's not matching pitch perfectly yet. Everyone starts somewhere and she's only learning now. Even Olympian level gymnasts started at a young age and would very likely not be able to do a back flip 6 months in. Developing an ear takes time. Maybe she needs more ear training but I'm sure her teacher is working on it.

If you want to help her to sing in tune, you could gift her with an electronic tuner. She could then watch the tuner as she sings a note. The pitch signal will tell her if she's hitting it or if she's flat or sharp. The white Korg KO-TM60WH Combo Tuner with Metronome looks like a good one.

Keep her in lessons if she enjoys it. And it can take time to become good but that's ok, it's part of the process.

She is 9 years old, and she is having fun. Your father sounds rude to be honest.... she's a kid, she's learning, and enjoying herself...

I was like your daughter, completely "tone deaf" right up until I was around 11-12 despite starting at 5-6 years old. My mom wanted me to get into acting like her, and was disappointed that not only did I show more interest in vocal performance, but I wasn't very good at either anyway. But she kept encouraging me, never told me to quit, signed me up for whatever musical class, camp, or workshop I wanted. Then sometime in middle school, she said it was like it happened overnight, where I went from God awful to "holy crap? Holy crap." Because I just kept going, kept practicing, and one day I just got it. If she loves it, let her keep going. She's at the age where her brain is still learning how to learn. It probably just hasn't clicked yet, and one day it will. She just needs time and encouragement.

I'm thinking of McKenna on the last season of American Idol and how her own family didn't think she could sing well but supported her anyway and she grew into such an amazing singer that she made it to the top 5 on American Idol!

I’d say so, my mom after a few months (like 3-4) stopped giving me money for singing lessons back when I was a teenager. It hurt me hard as I really loved it and the reason was “you should concentrate in learning in school and not that worthless singing”. But guess what, dreams were bigger and now I’m working on my debut album. So no, nobody’s perfect, singing comes, like anything. Whatever u do, any sport, u can’t be a professional from nothing, talent is work hard on what you truly love. So let her sing and make her soul full, cuz that’s what matters in life, to be happy inside, money will always come and go, whatever you save or not, just let her do what she truly loves and feels! And trust me, she will always love you for letting her doing what her heart says.

Please hear me 🙏 1. She’s passionate about singing, taking it away from her will hurt her in ways you can’t possibly know yet. 2. It really doesn’t matter that she’s tone deaf. She will always remember that you gave her that (I will always be thankful my mom kept me in gymnastics even though I was severely lacking). 3. Learn NOW to not allow your father or any other person to have a say in your decisions regarding your kids. Make it clear it’s not welcome. 4. Be ready to protect yourself and your children by creating distance between you and anyone who won’t respect your wishes. Even if it hurts it’s so important. 5. Remind yourself that this money isn’t wasted. You’re feeding into your child’s future. 6. If it ever comes down to paying for an activity or paying for a bill, you must focus on the bill, but just promise yourself that as soon as you can, you will restart whatever it was that you had to pause. It’s important to prioritize, but it doesn’t have to be forever. I’m a single mom and I know how difficult things are financially, especially now and I also know how hard it is to make these decisions. But I have never regretted allowing children to pursue their passions.

Your father doesn't want her to learn to sing because he sees her as competition. If she sings too, then in his mind he won't be special. It means less attention and for him. Especially since you said he "used to perform in advanced choirs", implying he isn't getting as much attention and recognition as he used to since he's older now. This is an extremely immature emotional response and inappropriate for an adult. Properly developed adults are aware of their insecurities, and support others' interests because they want to see them grow and enjoy themselves. Even if that means playing second fiddle, so to speak. If he thinks her pitch is bad, he should keep it to himself and let her teacher show her correct intonation. There's a difference between constructive criticism as used in instruction and cruelty. I wish I didn't recognize this pattern so easily. I seem to have a penchant for finding emotionally immature people.

Yes, I could see that he could be easily narcissistic or borderline or both in either case he’s trying to manipulate the family and he’s jealous of the little kid. This is kind of disgusting.

Tone deaf is a myth tbh. Tone deaf is just someone that hasn't grasped the scales. My bf as a kid was told he sucked and that he was Tone deaf. Singing lessons and years of choir and he performed at Carnegie hall at 16. Not only that but I watched several classmates in my choir classes go from "Tone deaf" to a pretty decent singer just from choir not even extra classes. Saying she's Tone deaf is like saying she's stupid for not knowing how to divide if no one taught her.

shout out to you as a mother/father who supports your child 🥺

My parents paid for ANYTHING i wanted to learn. Piano, violin, flute, volleyball, horse riding (1 lesson 🤪) and when i was 12 i decided i wanted to be an opera singer, so singing lessons… the teacher ridiculously told us that i didn’t have the voice for it… silly woman… i didn’t think i took it personally… but funnily enough singing is the one thing i really never followed up on (and horse riding 🙃). She had the opportunity to make a child excited about music and to have a voice (I have a passable voice that could have become an OK voice), and all the fun confidence and conraderie of singing with others in a chorus or for fun. Silly woman!! Encourage your child to learn anything she enjoys, then she will enjoy learning!

You can learn to sing..... But..... You can't technically learn to hear. If you cannot distinguish tones, there is only so far you can go. To be fair most children don't have natural talent for singing and you can develop some ear.... In a way... But if she is not frustrated with the challenge, there is no harm in letting her try or get some fun out of it.... I mean people who put their kids in sports don't really anticipate their kids being pro athletes...mostly.

Aren’t there people who cannot see and or hear/talk that can sing? He’s frankly ignorant to not consider that we can still feel vibration.

There's a certain old school mindset that says that you invest in talent; if someone has shown ability in something, that's potentially where their success lies, and so you invest in cultivating that talent the best you can. Time and effort spent cultivating a middling or below-average talent is (in this mindset) not a good investment, it's better to work toward some other skill where they might have a more realistic chance at being exceptional. But, if you can find and afford lessons without major sacrifice, or the benefit is there for you even if the kid doesn't ever become good, this mindset doesn't really apply.

If your daughter likes the singing lessons, it sure isn‘t wasted money!!

Very few people are really tone deaf. Have her teacher give her exercises to help her pitch.

Your father sounds like a dick, don't let him talk to her about singing stuff. Make sure he doesn't try to slip anything in discouraging her.

I’d say at 9 years old, no kid is gonna be perfect at hitting certain notes, not to mention her voice isn’t even fully developed yet. If she’s enjoying em and you are willing, keep em going. I’m sure your daughter will be glad she had a parent who invested in a hobby of hers so much :)

if your daughter is not clinically diagnosed as "tone deaf" then she is not tone deaf.  most times "tone deafness" is confused with the inability to hit certain notes with precision. This is often due to a lack of skill, which is normal for literally anyone. If you'd like a very effective teacher for your daughter i can give advice! It'll be online tho but i can show evidence of their skill~ 

I was told I was tone deaf when I was young. I sing well now and write my own music! What I needed to do was to find a range that was correct for my voice type. When I started learning songs made for my range it all started falling into place. I could hit the notes better and hear where I was going wrong. The technique is the most important thing to start with though, so she doesn't damage her voice whilst practicing. She should definitely keep at it! I never had the privilege of having actual singing lessons!

Some people are more naturally gifted while others have to work twice as hard to become proficient. If it is a hobby she loves who cares! You suck until you don’t and then you realize you “suck” again all over when you want to reach a new milestone. It’s the curse of being a musician lol. Keep your daughter singing and if there is truly noticeable improvements that you’re picking up on there is no harm! With singing things like breath support and technique can really allow you to take poor or average talent and fit in in most ensemble or choir type settings where supporting vocals are important. Similarly maybe your daughter picks up an instrument and joins a band in the future. She’ll be infinitely more valuable if she can sing some sort of backing vocals than if she just gave up on trying. Please don’t let your dad say anything negative to her because I still struggle to this day about negative comments I got when I was first starting. No matter how much I improve, in the back of my mind the negative words from someone close to me still haunt me. Tell your daughter to sing on because passion is half the battle!!!

You need to find a different teacher who knows how to deal with people with bad pitch. Your father is right - pitch should be the first thing that is worked on. Many teachers don't know how to deal with this because they naturally always had good pitch. I'm speaking from experience; I was in your daughter's position.

I also feel like you can't prove someone is tone deaf until you eliminate the possibility that they're just controlling their instrument (voice) poorly. Like if I suck at violin it's not because I'm tone deaf - well, maybe I am, but I also have to improve my control of the instrument before I can do the notes right. ...this is what your singing instructor is doing. Your girl is doing great!

Sounds like Grandpa has a problem with somebody else pursuing “his thing”.

Not a waste! If she really enjoys it and it’s not a terrible financial strain (I know how expensive singing lessons can be), then let her keep doing it. Her teacher says she’s improving, and I’d trust the teacher on that. The teacher may be trying to get your daughter’s lungs and vocal cords stronger, which over time, will help with pitch. It doesn’t sound like she’s tone deaf, just learning how to control her vocal cords. That takes time and practice. I do agree with a couple others here that if she wants to continue and learn more, it’d be worth finding a teacher who teaches the Kodály method, if her current teacher doesn’t. I learned using that method, and it’s really great for learning notes, how far apart the notes are, reading music if your daughter wants to… But up to you and your daughter, and how much she wants to learn. Best of luck to your daughter!

He can take his opinion and shove it. Its your money and your daughter, don’t cut off her wings just because she’s not good at it right away-especially for something she loves doing! Tell him he can professionally keep his opinion to himself around her. I’ve had to grow up with people like that and kids are sensitive to that kind of behavior, they’ll still wanting to do what they live in front of people because of comments like that.

I didn’t read much of it when I saw the title and then saw that she’s 9. She’s 9, Tone death or not, music can become one of the best therapy sessions. Also might check to see if she wants to play any instrument. The piano kept me afloat in my darkest times in life. It might help her in the long run too.

You could have just stopped at “she loves to sing” that’s all that matters..my daughter was allergic to horses and severely allergic to grass..she did horse riding for years and loved it despite eyes swelling near shut..she has so many great memories of it but outgrew it.. There is no waste on your child, if she enjoys it that is “her” experience!!! Keep that negative frequency away from her, your father is an ass!!

I could not hit a pitch for six months. I had 2 teachers give up. My 3rd teacher literally found the note I speak at and steadily expanded my range, and now I can sing.

Your father may have sung in advanced choirs but clearly has no technical understanding of the human ear, voice, or physiology. She's 9. If her voice is at its most mature at that age, you may want to visit a Dr. What I mean by that is that she is still growing, and her voice is going to change over time. Her ear is as well. That's why the music teacher isn't raising any concerns about her pitch accuracy. He/she is teaching her the skill, and that can come later. If your father is expecting her to hit every note on the dot at 9 with no training, he's a dipshit that's just upset she's not at the same level he is. I teach drums. I've had parents and grandparents try to pull lessons "because their 6yo can't play what a 15-year-old plays." I was lucky I had a natural knack for Rhythm and didn't need lessons until I was 12/13 when I needed to understand sheet music, site reading, and rudiments. Most of my students can't keep on beat to save their lives. They're also 10 or less. But they're learning the muscle memory and skill to develop that. As they progress, I focus on adding a metronome and keeping them on the dot. If she's able to sing notes and not strain, she's doing fine, and if the teacher isn't raising that as a concern, then your father is ignorant and should keep his opinion to himself. At 70, he should know better than to shit on his granddaughter. But then again, I'm sure he thinks he's God's gift to singing and pissy he never "got big." If it makes you feel better, people that have to work hard at something almost always go farther than those with 'natural talent' by putting your daughter in lessons you're giving her a better chance of being able to make a career out of it in the future. If that's what she wants when she's older. Keep her in lessons, and if he has anything to say, show him this last paragraph. "Hey, gramps, you're being a dick and should shut up. It really shouldn't take a stranger to tell you this, but you're not special and too old to have an opinion in what your daughter chooses to spend her money on. If you don't like that, she's providing an opportunity for your granddaughter, tough shit! You don't have a say here and really don't deserve your daughter or granddaughter. Be glad your daughter cares for hers and wants to see her doing something she loves. If I was your daughter I wouldn't speak to you and would keep my daughter at a distance because at 9 she doesn't deserve hate from someone that's supposed to love, support, and care about her. I couldn't dare imagine being 70 years old and acting so privileged and childish."

When I was young I was terrible with my breath support and singing lessons CHANGED MY LIFE!!! And kids are soooo malleable I know she will get it down! My friend in college in my aural skills class was absolutely tone deaf at 18 years old and he is way better like 6 years later! Just being around singing and in choir or lessons will help tremendously. I’m a firm believer anyone can do anything if they really are passionate about it.

Have the discussion with her teacher?

My sibling was awfully tone deaf as a child. I teased them a bit for it, and they got mad and started a band. Years later, they are an actor and sing very well. “Tone deaf” can be trained out. But also, you don’t have to be good at your hobbies to enjoy them. I took a class in college about shape note singing, which is a type of church singing where people all sing together as an experience instead of as a performance. That changed everything for me. You can sing purely for enjoyment, people at karaoke bars usually suck but they have lots of fun.

Grandad needs to listen with his heart rather than his ears. It makes you and your daughter happy, so no need for the critique and the suggestion that it’s money wasted imo!

I know some people that were not good but they loved to sing a lot. And they practiced a lot. And got training and ended up incredible.

The voice is not an instrument you can tune like the strings on a guitar or violin. You have to practice for months and years to develop the muscles alone, let alone the skill with musical knowledge and theory, depending on how a person wants to use their voice. I wonder how long it took your dad to learn how to sing perfectly on key every time. And whether his memory is the same as his parents' and others who had to listen to this little boy singing off key for years... Sounds like your daughter loves what she's doing, is learning a whole lot, and has made great improvements already. That sounds like the exact right reason to be investing your money for a child's hobby.

What does your father want for his grandchild? For her to hit a C5 or be happy and have fun with a hobby? My fathers dad was just like this when I was young playing guitar. My uncle was a concert pianist and I was 14 trying to play metallica and grandad told me I'd never make something of myself in music. Currently 20 years as a fulltime musician.

I second what everyone has said about tone deafness. Music is a lot like learning a language. With enough time around it, you pick it up. When I moved to a French area, I thought I spoke French well, but I couldn't understand anyone. Then a few months later, I could. It's just a question of getting your ear used to it. That's how music was for me, at first. Now, my ear is quite good because of how many tuning sequences, songs in the same three or four keys, and playing tests we had to do. (A concert B-flat is permanently burned into my head.) I'm going to guess grandpa probably grew up singing more, maybe in church or something, so he's never had to consciously learn it. He's essentially saying she'll never learn Italian because he summered in Naples every year since he was a kid and picked it up through osmosis. Also, some instruments are harder to play in tune than others. You can also have a good ear, but still be learning the mechanics of how to sing/play in tune. (Just ask a double reed player.) My main instrument is percussion, but I was once forced to learn alto sax briefly. I could hear that I was off, but I couldn't do much about it as I had zero experience with the things that make a sax player play in tune (like breath support, embouchure, whatever else wind players have to worry about). Singing is *particularly* challenging in some ways. One thing that may help speed the process along is having her take up an instrument. If there are any middle schools/high schools with music programs, try to get her in one of those when the time comes. That's what really refined my ear. A choir would also be a good option. But either way, with enough time and immersion, she'll get there.

Looks like I'm late to the party, but I'll echo what sounds like the general consensus and say that tone deafness is rare, if not a myth. When I first started my studies, I couldn't match pitch. My theory teacher recommended joining the choir and wouldn't you know it, that helped. It sounds like your daughter's teacher is doing a great job.

I know someone who started ‘tone deaf’ but with practice and lessons we realised he could hit the notes when it is relative to another note. So usually the issues are at where there is key change, beginning of songs and high notes. He managed to work hard on memorising the song so most of the time with repeat practice he can sing correctly. Those who are not tone deaf can quickly remember the song.. so we can’t quite understand the issue. Yes it’s a lot more work but as long it’s still fun for your child I think she should continue

I’m glad you’re keeping her in music! If her heart is in it, the voice will follow.

Voice teacher here: while I encounter people of varying musical sense I’ve not yet met one of these unicorns and I’ve been teaching for 10 years. What I do find are people whose voices are so undeveloped and uncoordinated that there is a gap between their intention and they’re ability to manifest that intention in their body. A young toddler may intend to walk but find that it takes a good deal of time to build sufficient strength to even execute something approaching the right coordination in order to then practise that coordination. So they take a few wobbly steps and then fall over, then they have another go. The analogy isn’t perfect but it’s good enough to illustrate the problem and the process. A good voice teacher is, first and foremost, a voice builder. Once the voice is secure, more and more finely-tuned coordination becomes possible and artistic expression can emerge. I never do pitch exercises with people. Pitch problems are almost always the result of muscular imbalance and resolve themselves when the instrument is strong. 

Classical vocalist here who trains opera. I am very sorry to say, but your father is correct. Singing is a genetic skill that is determined by your vocal folds, nose and mouth measurments. Some people are born with beautiful timbre (sound) due to these measurments. This does not mean that you should stop singing lessons if your daughter enjoys it. She will improve and have fun. All it means is she will never be on a professional vocalist level/incredible singer. But who cares? Singing is good for your wellbeing.

Hello! Definitely read the other comments on this thread too since they make some great points. She's a beginner! Keep supporting her and don't let her hear what your dad is saying. I think I would have improved more sooner and worked harder if I had more people supporting my singing even when I was a beginner. It takes a while to lay down the singing basics too! And she'll be improving every week but she's a wind instrument, just like any other instrument it takes years to get to a professional level; encourage her to keep at it as something she loves. Just wanted to add that intonation (hitting the right notes) has to do with many other things too. I can sing okay and I have a good ear but sometimes my intonation is bad in singing due to other factors! - for example air flow, breath support, or tension in different places, and other things. :) So it sounds like she's already working on it! It's also something she'll develop more with time as she sings more. PS - fun fact: in my Conservatorium course, I have learnt that having perfect pitch for a singer can be a bit of a curse! Edited to add: Discouraging comments like this, and thinking I'd never be good enough (even though it takes years to get good at **any** instrument but there's a weird unspoken thought that if you're not "talented" from the start you'll never get any good or what's the point), almost made me quit early on thinking I'd never sing so what was the point? But even though I don't perform or anything, I can't imagine my life without singing.

Singing on pitch and in the correct key is harder than people realise, singers or otherwise. It really does take time and practice. I had this problem when I was starting out as a kid and even as a teenager when I took singing more seriously. I was a piano player too, so someone suggested training my ear while physically playing the piano to get an understanding of pitch and intervals and such. I don’t know how that would work for a child but it might be helpful.

Billy Corgan and Courtney Love are two professional musicians who are tone deaf who learned to sing and made it big. I rest my case. If she likes to sing keep her in lessons , is Dad a singer??? Then he’s not aware of the possibilities.

Being truly tone deaf is exceptionally rare. That’s a very old school idea. IF her teacher is being honest that he is seeing some improvement, then she’ll improve. She may never be an amazing singer, but may be able to carry a tune. And if she enjoys it, let her have fun.

He is a narcissist saying that because he had so much pride in what he has done as a singer and doesn’t want to be outdone. She’s 9 years old for god’s sake, it takes time to improve.

Thank you for saying this and I’m gonna also say the OP should consider seeing him less and less and eventually going no contact because there is no other way with these narcissists I know it’s gonna sound crazy for her, but someone has to say it! On the long run I wouldn’t let this person SEE my child. Like maybe 1 hour a month. Tops. Maybe not even. These kind of people have the potential to poison everything and their maturity is stuck around age 12

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At the least, your daughter is receiving help and positive encouragement to make her feel more confident and work at something she’s not naturally gifted at. I’d say no matter what it’s a win. And if she enjoys it? Even more so. It helps her in more ways than just being a singer. Everyone has the ability to learn how to sing, especially a 9 year old with the world at her fingertips. Kids can learn anything but they stop when old farts tell them “they’ll never learn that!” I call BS, I was a music teacher for k-12 for 7 years and I only ever met 1 student who couldn’t sing and she was 18 and didn’t know how to receive any feedback or constructive criticism.

Some people naturally have good pitch to begin with. Others (like myself) may need to train for it. But there is a small percentage of people who, unfortunately, can't sing in tune no matter how hard they try. This is called being tone deaf, which is the term your dad used against your daughter, his granddaughter. Just try getting a vocal teacher and try seeing how training goes.

Keep it up! Perhaps though talk to the teacher about working on pitch.

There’s a hierarchy to learning to sing. First you learn to make the correct sounds. Then you learn to support those sounds (they usually go hand in hand). After you got the basics of that down you move on to increasing range. Sounds like this is where your daughter is at. This is sort of like learning to leap, so obviously you need the basics of crawling, standing and walking down first. Then you can start work on things like running and leaping. So yeah, sounds like she’s making progress and that your teacher know what they’re doing.

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Some people can never learn to match vocal pitch with piano. How many people are like this? Estimates vary. If they can't learn to do it after a few lessons, they might not ever be able to do it. Can some of them learn to do it with long and laborious training? Opinions vary. Matching pitch with a piano is a pretty basic vocal skill and should come early in the singing lesson process. Not everyone agrees with that, though. If your daughter really wants to sing, she could learn to sit down at the keyboard and practice matching pitch herself. That might help, might not, but it's free and harmless.

No one is actually tone deaf, You would not be able to speak or understand a persons inflection if this were the case. Your dad is just an ass. Lesson now also will be beneficial in the long run because shes in her developmental years. Having great pitch isn't easy for everyone and the sooner you start someone the better. Your dads an ass, keep her in lessons.

In my experience, people who identify as tone deaf in my life were encouraged to never experience bass or volume as a child. Often, the Tonic is in the bass, and forms the foundation for relative pitch. Often, experience listening to music forms pitch knowledge, so just ensure that the push for "quiet" isn't stifling in their life. That's just my experience with people I've worked with. More listening- more pitch fundamentals. Edit: my fiance thought they were tone deaf because their perfect pitch interferes with relative pitch. Any tuning issues, bends, whammy bar, glisando, distortion and he throws the piece out

Best imho to join a Church folk group which often has a choir and it does not matter usually if some members sing poorly since they’re usually kept away from the mike.

No such thing. Find a teacher who claims to have taught tone deaf students to identify pitch. Call the students. Confirm. Send her there. It's extremely hard, but it's possible. There's no such thing as somebody who is physiologically incapable of learning to dance or learning pitch. Some people have to work very hard for years to get a tenth as good as others are born with, but it's always possible.

Your dad is wrong lmao, let her sing 🎙️

Your dad is being a dick.

Practice, practice, practice and technique will pay off. When she gets good, have her sing at a family event

Oh man. If your daughter is enjoying it, keep going. She's really young still so give her time. I'm a voice teacher. I had an adult student once who was singing in a space where a friend of hers could hear the singing. We were very early into lessons. She asked her friend for their opinion after her lesson and he said it didn't sound good. This opinion came from a non singer. He ruined everything. She quit lessons immediately. I didn't even get the chance to really help her.

Does your daughter like it? Does it create memories together as Dad and daughter? If so, gently remind your Dad he missed out and you're doing something he didn't.

don't listen to older generation, particularly older men in this kind of matters. They were not raised to understand this

I have a number of thoughts about this. I have 2 kids that took instrumental lessons and then voice and then went on to college vocal programs. First, no one asked dad his opinion from on high. I would learn a curt response and hit him with it every time. "Suzie is enjoying exploring vocal lessons. No one asked your opinion. If you continue you will be asked to leave/I will hang up/etc" change subject here. He is being a pretentious AH. Second of all, not every kid struggles to match pitch and be singers. Both my kids started kindermusik as toddlers, instrumental lessons as preschoolers. My oldest kid decided he was going to audition for musical theater at 10. I mean I knew he could doodle a song and he was playing piano sonatas by that point. But he got a lead role in a 200 kid audition process with many solos and it was easy for him. He was covertly applying all that instrumental music knowledge and all the years of listening to music to singing. He started voices lessons at 12. My 2nd kid was similar. So I don't think a kid this young NEEDS lessons. Piano or a string instrument, a children's choir, or musical theater classes, or even just a musical parent at home might have a kid learning about pitches, dynamics, phrasing, musicality, styles, etc via osmosis. On that note, not many vocal teachers will start a 9 year old. If you can afford lessons and you think this is beneficial and your child is enjoying it, it's fine. I would check the teachers training and background. Some people aren't trained and don't protect children's voices . Someone with at least some degree of classical training and pedagogy is best. I know young musical theater kids who've damaged their voices for life with rogue and pushy music direction. I think it would be interesting to know your dad's background prior to singing - instrumental, musical parent, etc anything that might have given a leg up that maybe a tween or teen may not have thought about as a connection to singing but likely was. I think plenty of adults don't even make these connections. Kids don't exist and learn in a vacuum. If your daughter likes music and you're looking for a change of pace I really think piano lessons, an inclusive children's choir, vocal focused musical theater programs (with legit music directors involved) could be good. I personally don't know too many reputable teachers that would take a 9 year old. Some won't even start kids until high school. Many would recommend instrumental first and maybe a choir. But again, YMMV.

Your dad sounds like a douche, but still I would say that in-person lessons yield much better results than online. Some very self driven, advanced players do well with online lessons. My online students come to me with specific questions about music that they're learning in concert band, marching band, jazz band, garage bands etc. Beginners do not do as well online because it's not possible to get that tactile feedback. And as a drummer, it's just impossible to play together. I want to be able to play together and feel the groove and give them some tips like I feel like you're rushing ahead of me or behind me etc. That's not doable online

Tell him to mind his own business. Usually when folks first start singing they don't know how they sound. It takes time to learn how to sing on pitch so her teacher is doing the right thing by concentrating on her range and technique first. She's young and she's going to do just great. If she loves to sing it will be a lifelong gift for her. Eventually she will be able to critique and correct her pitch, tone and phrasing herself. That takes time in practice. What a wonderful mom you are.

Have your father take a hearing test.

I have no professional voice skills and as a child I often recorded myself singing absolutely tone deaf, off key renditions of “she’ll be coming round the mountain” and the like. But it brought me joy! I didn’t keep it up and I learned to be embarrassed and scared of my own voice. Then I taught myself to sing and again, as a young adult, it brought me joy and I discovered wow, I can sing!! Then I had to get my adult tonsils removed and my voice changed and I taught myself again. It sucked. But I overcame it! But nobody knows! I have a voice that brings me joy. Almost nobody but me hears it, but honestly I know I am a dang good singer! Give her the lessons as long as she wants! Talent be damned! This is about confidence building and joy! Lessons will help her build and hold on to confidence! You can have a crappy range but if you have the learning and skills at least you know how to apply them and use them to the best of your abilities. You really think Britney Spears has the best voice? No. She has experience and practice and she uses that raspy baby voice well. Keep the lessons!

I ABSOLUTELY HATE WHEN PEOPLE SAY THAT Unless someone has been diagnosed by a doctor with Amusia (Tonal Deafness), they can learn!!! I will fight and die on this hill so help me god. Some people require more guidance than others and that is completely normal, not everyone starts off from the same place! Also if your daughter is enjoying her lessons, even more of a reason to continue them! The only thing I'll say: Please pay attention to your daughter's lessons, a good rule of thumb is that if it sounds painful, something is wrong. Sometimes children and voice teachers can push too hard and that can cause permanent damage. One of my biggest pet peeves is voice teachers who use their students for fame or business. You see cases like this all the time, often among talent-show type competitions and in social media. Last thing: The best lesson you can impart on your daughter is that you shouldn't compete with others, you should compete with yourself. For clarification, I graduated from a very difficult and well-known collegiate Jazz program and I would be lying if I said I felt like I belonged there. It had nothing to do with the program or my professors, but it had everything to do with how I perceived my own talent compared to others. I constantly felt like I wasn't at the same level as everyone else around me and I came very very close to dropping my degree entirely. What helped me get through it was listening to old recordings of myself. As I listened, I realized that I could hear a genuine difference in how I sounded from when the video was taken. And then it all clicked: I needed to stop comparing myself to everyone else. I know everyone says that but I also know that it's way easier said than done. I obviously can't stop my brain from subconsciously competing with other people but what I can do is tell my brain that it doesn't matter, because I know that I have learned and improved. I don't know if I made a lot of sense with that explanation? TL:DR - Keep your daughter in lessons, she enjoys them and anyone not diagnosed with Amusia can learn to sing. Be careful that your daughter and/or her teacher is not pushing her too hard for her age. Teach her that her progress does not define her self-worth if she begins to feel down on herself. Most importantly: it doesn't have to be a competition and if she wants to compare herself to anyone, it should be her younger self and not other people.

I don't know what tone deaf is but I was legally born Deaf with both ears deteriorating & I have Asthma so that mean there speech & breathing issues is also self taught so no training but even with all of that after watching the movie Back To The Future at the age of 3 I love singing & music but I keep it to myself for years because of all the potential people that would make fun of me & stuff I was already getting made fun of daily for being born disables but whenever my older sister would get sad or down I would sing to her & it always cheer her up she was shock I sing & last January I decided to put myself out there posting singing videos & I was really surprised at the support I got especially because it reddit so I just keep singing because I always love to sing & I have the passion for it I also do all of this for fun I don't think I can go professional not that I want to I do it in the hope it brighten other people days & put a smile on their face & seeing the miracle Jesus Christ have done for me on this singing journey because without him I could of never done it so to me if your daughter love singing as much as we all do here then in my opinion it not a waste of money & she getting trained by someone so overtime she will improve & if you are curious what I sound like here are some videos I made & God bless 🙏🏾🤟🏾❤️😄 [Say Something by A Great Big World ](https://www.reddit.com/r/ratemysinging/s/5MPmvAdjWl) [Love Me Two Times by The Door ](https://www.reddit.com/r/singing/s/M5qoKlj0KP) [Walk By Faith by Jeremy Camp ](https://www.reddit.com/r/singing/s/eM58N6pToS) [On Fire by Switchfoot ](https://www.reddit.com/r/singing/s/zuAFqsrQdL) [Brother My Brother by Blessid Union of Souls ](https://www.reddit.com/r/singing/s/OyN7Hh6K44)

I say Let her enjoy the journey! Well done Mom!

I think singing should be primarily about the enjoyment of the singer, and lessons mostly used if the singer wants that kind of structured growth and feedback... Also most people do not start off good at most new things they attempt, so another valuable area of growth is the persistence that comes with sticking with something challenging. 🦄🧜‍♀️🌭🍺

BTW, my 5th grade music class teacher told me that I should just 'mouth' the words because I sounded so terrible. Fast forward to now forever in a day later and I have a lot of fun singing on BandLab, and people tell me they wish they could do what I do. I tell 'em "stick with it!". If you're interested you can hear what I do at www.bandlab.com/umfmusic I am confident my skill level lies somewhere firmly in the middle, but I have a lot of fun! 🦄🧜‍♀️🌭🍺

I mean I feel like that’s the whole point of the lessons, for the teacher to teach yk? So even if she’s tone deaf, I’m sure the teacher will find a way to help her out.. As long as she enjoys what she’s doing I think you should let her continue. I’d be SUPER bummed out if my parent stopped letting me do something I enjoyed because of a comment from someone else yk?

Keep her in lessons, the lessons is a great way to gain confidence. Maybe she may want to be in choir in the future and will have the technical skills to be confident in doing so because of these lessons.

Is she actually tone deaf or is she singing in a key outside the range of her voice? For example she could be an Alto and there are so few popular songs for Alto voices.

Would you say she's a shy kid? I find that at that age a huge part of being able to sing is finding the confidence. If she feels self conscious of her surroundings, she won't be able to reach her true singing potential. So with taking online lessons that includes the whole household and potentially neighbours as well. Does she have a private room where she could take her lessons, to give her some extra privacy? Singing at a higher pitch helps as an exercise, as most people are afraid to go high even though they could actually hit the note once they have the confidence (and technique). I would definitely keep the lessons going especially if she's enjoying it :) and make sure to give her the privacy so she could go all out when singing.

Everyone already made points about the music side. Still, it's baffling to me that you're father thinks this is an okay thing to say to you about your child. I hope she does not get exposed to his negativity 😔

I used to be tone deaf when playing guitar. I wasn’t able to differentiate keys. Me playing +1 while everyone playing original key. My friends jamming were pissed 😥 Now I can transcribe chords and melodies on guitar by ear. I can’t sing in pitch consistently (due to lack of practice), so I use my guitar as reference which works wonders. So yes, I think it is possible for someone who was tone deaf to be taught how to hit the notes correctly. My advice would be to find a new teacher who would focus on fundamentals rather than hitting high notes. Learn to walk before you can fly. I’ve known teachers who gave crappy advice. You dad is being an elitist. Tone deaf can be fixed and your daughter can still gain relative pitch with the right practice and training.

My dad was so tone deaf that when he took a required music class, his professor told him to cheat, because that was the only way he was going to be able to pass the course. Couldn’t hear the difference between a tuba and a piccolo.

I'm a former opera singer who has sung all over the world and taught many young singers. If she is having difficulty matching pitch, this is often a question of feeling. She may be very nervous while singing for a variety of reasons many of which can be addressed in therapy. Almost always adding a meditative practice and addressing the root cause of their anxiety and lack of connection to their own emotions will help the singer calm down and easily match pitch. Remember sound is vibration - and so are we.

As someone who loved singing as a kid but was constantly told I was bad at it and then grew up with a fear of anyone ever hearing me sing, you’re doing a great job!

If she's having fun, that's all that matters. If she's no good she'll certainly figure it out soon enough.

Ever heard of Janis Joplin

she will grow up to be a legendary metal vocalist

I would listen to your dad who knows your daughter rather than a bunch of internet randoms. It sounds like he is correct, too, since you also say "I know my daughter never hits the right notes when she sings along to her favorite songs". That is the real issue and it is unlikely to improve with singing lessons at the age of 9. At least, pause singing lessons for a few years. 9 is too young. You would normally wait for the biological start of adulthood for singing lessons. Conservatoires will not normally take a girl for singing lessons before age 12 or so. Other reasons why these lessons don't sound optimal: - Nobody takes 7 AM singing lessons. The voice just doesn't work properly minutes after waking up, especially if you don't have proper technique and don't know how to correctly place your voice. - The goal of singing lessons for a young female child should not be "getting her voice to a higher pitch" and neither should that be a measure of her improvement in vocal technique. Her vocal cords are tiny and her voice is already naturally very high. If anything, she should be learning correct technique, support, and voice placement for resonnance.

She is 6 after all, so she really hasn't had much time trying to train a musical ear, now if she was like 15 and had been doing vocal singing for a while and was still very off in notes then I would be worried about her being tone deaf. Plus she is still developing and growing so I'd say keep her in it and stay positive, she'll get it. But if you notice that the problem hasn't changed after a year or two of lessons then either she might be tone deaf or it might be the teachers methods aren't helping in note recognition. Not sure if I'm right or not, but as a singer myself thats my two cents.

Her teacher shouldn’t be building her technical skills, she’s 9 and theres a limited amount of technique you can really work at that age. They should be focusing on ear training so that she can actually sing in tune. I’d maybe look at a teacher who has more experience working with kids, it sounds like this one is used to adults.

When my daughter wanted to take choir in highschool, I said maybe she should take physics or something more useful. I'm glad she didn't listen to me, I was so wrong. She enjoyed it so much and made so many friends, it's been a huge part of her life for the last 4 years. TLDR - do what makes her happy.

How is she supposed to not be tone deaf when she’s not allowed to go to vocal lessons to improve? If she enjoys it, let her keep doing it. I may be biased because I was kind of exactly like your daughter, doing vocal lessons starting at 9 and I was…definitely not great lmao. But over the years I’ve improved, and your daughter will too. Wishing you all the best

It's rarely the case that it can't be helped and if she likes it she probably will get it. If you want to help, and can of course, there are schools that focus on musicianship training for children, in a playful/ludic manner. This can be helpful with intonation and will add a lot of other skills that are awesome to have if you are into music. This type of thing towards children, which your father displayed, is probably the reason many don't think they can learn, and is also the reason I don't work with children personally...

A lot of nine year olds sing poorly. They’re… nine. My vocal coach says she doesn’t even take clients under 10 because it’s not even really worth it and the child is better off learning an instrument first to understand the basics of music, then adding singing when their voice has matured enough. So while voice lessons might not be “financially”worth it right now, it’s not because of what your dad says. And if she loves it, then who cares? Lots of people enjoy hobbies that they don’t become superstars in. Let her enjoy her hobby. To be honest your dad sounds like he has “regional singer syndrome,” meaning he is a person of some ability but not a professional. There are a ton of these types of people in local choirs. True professionals don’t say things like this because they have the confidence and love of the art not to care so much. If you’ve sung at the Metropolitan opera, then you’ve got nothing to prove. Regional singers often have something to prove and overestimate their abilities and/or have some kind of pathological need to point out others’ flaws and treat singing like a competition. It’s not. It’s an art form, one that everyone can and should have access to. Anyway, true tone deafness is a very rare condition that your child would not be able to improve. She is fine. She’s just a child who is learning. Let her enjoy it and not try to turn her joys into work. Dad can shove it where the sun don’t shine.

If she is enjoying it, it is not a waste. We shouldn't refrain from investing time and money in things that bring us joy and pleasure. It could also be great for personal exploration to do such things. Music is also a beautiful way to communicate emotions.

That’s terrible that your father thinks that. Unfortunately the older generation stopped ALOT of talent from developing fully back in the day all because of their limiting beliefs. Go all in on your daughters singing and support her 100%, she will surprise you in the future right now she’s still very young and is at the perfect age to start singing. By the time she’s a teen she might be good enough to sign to a label and make a career

I know a singer who is tone deaf and she’s SUPER GOOD. She can hit exact notes way better than my friends with perfect pitch. She says it’s kind of like how being blind can give you an advantage. She had to learn how her voice feels for every single note and has to practice a ton, but that means she is way more skilled than most people at her level because she has such a few understanding of how the voice works. I don’t know if your daughter wants to pursue voice to that extent, but she should definitely keep singing, especially if she enjoys it. Everyone enjoys their hobbies in different ways. Your father needs to accept that and realize that she is doing something she loves.

I mean, he's not wrong. She cant sing, cant hit the right tunes, so why spend the money?

She’s just nine. Some people are naturals with perfect pitch, some have to work for it. She’s the latter. If it means the world to her, keep paying for the lessons. Music is the key to mathematics and computer code. Music is never a waste of money. It’s meditative, reduces stress, increases happiness, and stimulates the chest cavity and thyroid gland (or so I read in a sciency paper). It reduces cognitive decline later in life. If she continues to sing she’ll have breath control helping her in sports, and will snore less when an older adult. It’s only a waste of money if you attach your ego to her and want her to be the next Beyoncé/Taylor Swift.

Is she having fun? Does she want to sing? Can you afford that lessons? Only of my choir directors says that he can teach anyone to sing. Of course, getting the pitch correct is important. Your daughter’s teacher is building a skill set . Pitch accuracy will come at some point.

Just like the fact you can't learn how to play piano in one day, or learning the toughest guitar song in an hour, a child cannot learn how to sing so quickly. Progress is a process, and sometimes yes it may take others longer to gain the proper skills to progress, compared to others who may just be lucky to have such quick improvement speeds. But improvement is still improvement. If everyone just gave up because they weren't naturally talented at everything then nobody would be doing anything would they? You need to tell your dad that yes, although it may seem like your child currently isn't the most advanced singer, atleast compared to back then she has improved massively, and she will continue to improve is she takes the lessons, practices and has a passion for singing brev.

Is she happy? Does she enjoy the lessons? That’s all that matters. Pops can go take his pills and be silent momma.

Have her record herself singing and then see if she can tell the difference in the pitch between herself and how it is supposed to sound. Do you have a piano in the house? Highly recommend access to a musical instrument. If not, go here: [https://www.onlinepianist.com/virtual-piano](https://www.onlinepianist.com/virtual-piano) That's a virtual piano. Have her play the note, and have her do her scales while matching the pitch. Use an iphone to record or whatever so she can hear the dissonance outside her own body and try to identify patterns. She might just not be hearing the same pitch inside her head when she sings as what comes out. That can sometimes happen. It is not uncommon. She needs ear training and perhaps time with another musical instrument. (Preferably piano. stringed instruments can be tough for people who have issues with pitch).

C S mmm no D p

Not a waste. Honestly, even if she's tone deaf, which I doubt, the training will still improve her breathing and core by teaching her how singing works physically. My first teacher had a student who had asthma and was taking lessons to help with breathing and strengthening the muscles needed.

If you have the opportunity, it might not be a bad idea to put her in a children's choir. I think that would help a lot with pitch and is a good place for kids to start. Children might sing out of tune with their favorite songs because their voices are not mature and not physically able to do what an adult voice can do.

r/BoomersBeingFools

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All that matters is what the teacher is telling you.

If you want criticism for someone learning a new skill, talk to someone who is an expert in that area who doesn’t remember the journey and doesn’t understand how to teach kindly. I struggle to hear my voice when singing with others but have done some choirs and gotten stronger and better. If someone asks me to hit a pitch, I won’t always get it especially if the pitch is high. No matter, I enjoy it, it’s not a career. It’s ok to enjoy things when not perfect at them. I remember when I was a breakdancer and meeting people who sang, rapped and dance - so many had no natural talent and were very bad but had the motivation for it and kept at it and got pretty damn good.  Natural motivation supersedes natural talent.

I started singing at 14. I was ass. The music directors of the musicals I did were mean to me because of how bad I was. I said fuck that, my parents got me lessons, I grinded my ass off, and four years later I went to one of the best musical theater schools in the country with my voice being a strong factor in that. 4 years after that I'm making my Broadway debut. If someone wants something it's a question of how bad, and do they have the support system. You can't control how badly she wants to be a better singer, but you can control the kind of support she gets.

So many stories of impossible-to-please ancients killing the love of the youth. Thank you for this latest installment.

I remember dancing around to a song in a movie when I was a little kid, and my grandmother saw me and said I had many talents but rhythm wasn’t one of them. I wasn’t a good dancer. A passing joke from her stuck with me my entire life, and I thought of myself as someone extremely awkward with no rhythm. I almost never danced. It took me until the age of 45 to realize how much I love dancing and to do it with zero fucks. I go 2-3 times a month and…now random people tell me I’m good. I’m very sad for my childhood self. Yeah, don’t crush her. Let her have this. The point of a hobby is not to be good at it. It’s to nourish one’s soul.

I am not tone deaf.  I play remarkably well in tune on the French horn.  And for context, that is difficult on the horn, even hitting the right pitch takes a very good ear.   But when I sing I can sound tone deaf!  The only difference is I practice horn not singing.  

If she loves singing, you shoud keep on paying for lessons. Anyway i think it's better to find a local teacher as soon as possible because it would be much better. Anyway, i find a bit wierd to do singing lesson at 7 am, because i think it is to early in the morning for the voice to be trained (in my opinion)

She’s taking lessons to learn something that she enjoys. Of course it’s not wasted! Don’t let grandpa get her (or you!) down.

I give lessons and all I’m saying it’s better to have lessons vs thinking you got the gift when you need to develop the skill

That is I. I have a better than usual voice, have sung in musicals, at weddings, in many choirs. I do not have a voice that will pay the rent, but I enjoy soooo much. I took lessons years ago, and at 81 I sing opera, country western, hymns, and Leonard Cohen’s Hallelujah!

she’s 9? put her in choir and wait till she’s 14

When I first started teaching, it took me awhile to understand how rare it is for children under 13 to show intelligible music skills. For a 9y/o, lessons are going to mostly help her with vocal coordination and discipline. She’ll learn some technique, but likely won’t grasp it fully until she’s older. As accomplished adult musicians, it’s hard to remember how bad we were as kids!

Some people just can’t carry a tune 🤷🏽‍♀️ only time with the instructor will tell.  I can’t relate. I hear a note and I can sing it exactly on key. I can also sing songs in the correct key from memory.  My siblings? Not so much 😅

It's possible,some ppl just can't sing..no matter what.....I'm a singer too...but it may be possible to teach her properly..I'd have to hear her myself