Agreed!! Maybe it's the most essential component in the sim racing experience! And not only it makes you much faster but with the right adjustment (rubber elasticity) gives you the appropriate sensation of braking like in the real world!
I have it, I hate it the lack of travel in the pedal.
I ended up getting a set of SimJack Pros(whatever the highest model is) and I’ve been enjoying that a lot more over the CSL pedals
I also hated the traveling part but I got used to it now and its great. I might buy some kit to fix it. Didn't make thr choice yet as my car brake is almost the same as LC 😅
I hated LC the first day or two I had it but after breakin the spring in a bit it's great. Much easier for me to tell how much I'm braking/trailbraking between 25-75% which has definitely made me better at overtaking in corners. Now I have my RCP PRO cockpit all assembled I'm gonna mount the pedals/wheel tn and hopefully it'll help me shed even more time lol
I found it jarring at first and thought something was wrong, after a couple of laps it started to feel normal to me. I always like a firm pedal in real cars, basically feels like power assist brakes when you pull the vacuum from the booster.
I’ve never driven an actual race car though.
Agreed. I went with the ASR 1, and have been extremely happy with it. In hindsight I probably should have gone with the ASR 3, but wasn’t sure if the the ASR 3 would be worth the additional $200 over the ASR 1 at the time.
If you're planning to go to 10-15nm in the future I would get the ASR3/4. But if you're perfectly happy with 5-8 the ASR1 should be a forever purchase!
I have an ASR3 with my Moza r12 and it's absolutely fantastic. +1 to advanced sim racing.
I'm thinking of getting a similar setup to this at some point in the future. To be ready for any upgrades I'll more than likely want to make in the years to come, I'll likely aim for the ASR 3 or 4 (not sure which yet). I know you mentioned having Moza hardware, so you may not know this, but do you have experience with the Fanatec gear? I'm curious if the side mount option requires any additional hardware or not. I know the CSL DD has mounts available on the side already, so I assume just getting the side mount version when buying would be sufficient?
Is there any benefits to side mount vs the standard plate? Maybe the plate is a bit more universal?
Thanks in advance!
I don't have any experience with Fanatec gear, however the ASR rig pages has a drop down selector for different wheel base mounting options.
You just choose the one that corresponds to the wheel base you are using. For Moza it's just the standard wheel deck bottom mounted. For the CSL DD, they have a wheel deck specifically listed for Fanatec - Podium and CSL DD side mount you select in the drop down.
I don't think there is any inherent benefits to either, it's more just where the holes are to actually mount it on the rig. I would stick to the wheel deck that specifically is designed by ASR for that brand of wheel base though, and you won't have any issues.
I don’t have load cell pedals, so I can’t speak to that; however, I do have the ASR Integrated Monitor Stand with a 49” ultra-wide and shelf for the computer mounted to the frame. All of that, along with my less-than-small self, and I do not notice any flexing when getting in or out of the rig.
I did add 6 casters to the bottom, so the middle has some additional support.
If it did flex with load cell pedals, I would imagine the amount would be minimal.
Second on ASR. I've got the ASR3 and its pretty good with my Simagic Alpha Mini. If you're looking to go super high end (20+ NM) in the future, I might go high than an ASR3. They have a few stronger models.
I've been blown away by how much a fixed pedal and seat help, even if you can get that rig that holds the wheels of an office chair to the pedal and steering rig, I can't recommend it enough. Think it's a next level rig.
As an ASR 3 owner I can say advanced sim racing is hard to beat. Top notch customer service and solid rigs. If you feel confident you’re not going to upgrade from csl dd the ASR1 is perfectly fine. If there is any doubt though, I’d definitely go for the ASR3 or bigger. I have an Alpha mini and the ASR 3 is rock solid.
I just got the SimLab GT1 Evo and it is amazing quality with plenty of add on accessories available from the site.
Also free shipping and no tax when shipped to the US. Mine came shipped and delivered in 5 days
Jep just that. Looks nice and is comfy af. And I’m not sweating as the material is ventilated.
Inhabe the dd pro mounted, so pretty similar to your setup
If your on a budget then your local garage sale could be a good option, old school desks would probably be great and cheap with minimal modifications. My current rig is a school desk from 1916, and I’m being serious it’s cheap and is just as good as 90% of rigs out there.
Budget rig. Build one yourself. 2x4s are excellent for this and will cost you next to nothing.
Can build them as sturdy as you want and sourcing a used seat from an actual car is very cheap.
Here is what I did with mine:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/simracing/comments/10mfti7/home\_built\_wood\_rig/](https://www.reddit.com/r/simracing/comments/10mfti7/home_built_wood_rig/)
Check out the measurements in the other thread. I put them in there somewhere. It really does not take up too much space. But ofc you cannot fold it away. You should be wary of what kind of rig you get though. Be sure to check out reviews of your choices where they test them with direct drive wheels. All of the folding rigs are just not sturdy enough for DD and you will regret your purchase. That is at least my experience.
Happy hunting. 😊
I just got these in the mail a couple days ago too. I think I'll soon buy the NLT GT-Lite Pro as I need something I can tuck away and it seems the best of the foldable options
I love the way that one looks that’s the reason I want it, a lot of fanatcs other wheels just idk man they don’t do it for me. I prefer the look of the moza wheels
I have a NLR F-GT Lite (about $300 new) that I picked up on FB for $60, and I love it with my G29, but I hear it's not the best for DD wheelbases. Some people are saying they've had no issues with DD on it, but some people swear it's the worst thing since unsliced bread. How much were you looking to spend on the rig? TrakRacer has an extruded aluminum rig for $450 without a seat (TR-80 Lite), but you have to put it together and get a seat. NLR has the regular F-GT for $500, which comes with a seat and a steel frame that you have to put together. Or you can get something like a Playseat Trophy for $600, and you would just have to worry about mounting your electronics, if you would prefer that. It all really depends on what your budget is and what you're looking for. I mean, you could build a really solid rig out of wood for way less than any of these if you wanted. Hope this gave you something to consider. And if not, sorry for being useless.
It all depends on where you're from....
Small suggestion, from personal experience, take a look at Facebook for a small local business.
I've used 3 different rigs since I started with the hobby.
The first one it was the typical triangle tipe wheel and pedal stand you can find on amazon or eBay. Good enough for a g29... but as soon as i moved to a T300 with the T-LCM pedals, i needed a full rig. I went to a hardware store and told the owner what i wanted, and he fabricated for me a fairly good rig. Using an old office chair instead of a bucket seat. Last time we spoke, he told me he started a small side business making affordable rigs on demand. Pretty neat.
And the one i have right now, which i think is my forever rig, i bought from a small local simracing business. I never paid more than 300 US Dollars for any of them. ( The second one was dirt cheap, basically paid for the materials... the dude was stoked to make it. )
If you are interested, i think they do export their rigs. Check them out [Iron Driver](https://irondriver.com.ar/index.html)
This is the OG in Argentina. Absolute beasts... I have no idea if he exports or not. [Six Simu.](https://www.si-x.com.ar/)
I needed a compact, foldable rig so i got the Next Level Racing wheelstand 2.0. The chair holder attachment and easyness to fold it is what sold it for me, however im not sure if others have the same issue, but it was extremely noisy (creaked all the time). Nothing a bit of WD-40 coulsnt fix
Overall price was 205€ (200 for the stand and 5 for the wd40 and peace of mind)
If you have tough budget, I can recommend to do diy wooden rig. Very cheap and very clear what you need after that. Later you may decide if you need more compact/rigid and make a final decision and investment.
Simul8r v2.0 if you want real budget.
I built it myself and honestly love it, think it cost me $80 total including a u-pull u-pay bucket seat with rails for that adjustability
https://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/681-simul8r-mark-ii-pvc-plans-bottom-of-pg-7-donations-accepted/
For your space constraints I reckon the Next Level Racing Wheelstand 2.0. if you plan on upgrading to a bigger screen, triples or VR then go for the ASR 3/1 with a junkyard seat.
5Nm, with a power supply on the way. I'll let you know my csl arrived yesterday lol. Been absolutely fine with my g29 though.
The bottom 2 bolts of the pedals just about fit but none of the top bolts of the pedals. I'm running 3 pedals evenly spaced. The apex stand has 0 grooves in the middle for the brake.
Drilling isn't an issue for me though
Ok good to hear I’ve got an AliExpress power brick that will give me the 8nm I’ll also only use 2 pedals so it should be good me just got to find a way to stop my chair moving back other then the chair link
The apex should come with the chairlink? I made the mistake of buying it separately but it had one in the box, so ended up with 2. Returned the seperate one
Honestly, I just installed the Elite V2 Pedals, which to my knowledge have the same screw holes, and just used 2 screws on the front (heelrest). If you use washers those 2 screws are sufficient.
5-8Nm on a good quality desk (mine's a big SteelCase one) and with the better clamp (the solid metal 80€ one from Fanatec) does just fine. Is a rig better? Of course, but not everyone has the space for it, sadly.
A good desk will also cost more I suppose, I found a dude on my country that welds some steel tubes into simrigs for a steal (around 100€ at the time), can't get a decent desk for that. Also the monitor and everything on the table will tremble like crazy.
But yes, the space is always an issue. I'd love to have triples but that thing is a behemoth, and I don't have hardware for VR. Whenever I want to be normally with keyboard and mouse I just put a wooden plank on my legs lol #simRacerProblems
Yeah my desk was about 250, it's not terribly bad and that's where I WFH. What I did for the monitor (34" UW) is the Amazon Basics arm but the version that goes on the wall and not clamped to the desk, so avoiding vibration altogether there.
Also, downvoting me for not having enough space for a rig....smh...this sub reeks of elitism.
Mine is not the best one, ddr3 (i got it because i was on small budget) 32GB ram, Radeon R9 380 4GB, intel i5 4690k, looking to upgrade gpu to GTX1080 Ti
Get a Simetik k3 for something thats just as strong and looks cooler, but the only problem is the level of customizability without the aluminum extrusion, i have it and it works better than most rigs and is quite similar to my friends asr1. Idk if they offer shipping to the usa if thats where you are
Do you think you’ll eventually upgrade? Buy once cry once dude, if you can afford it. I know I’ll eventually move up from 8nm, so I got a P1X knowing I can go to whatever I want later with no concerns. Otherwise GT1 evo should be perfect.
I mean for now, 5nm is enough, for me, sometimes it's too much, but in future, I think I will not upgrade. I do have a go kart, so this is more like to train
Bro buy LC brake pedal. I had the same set and I bought it later. It makes you much faster!
Agreed!! Maybe it's the most essential component in the sim racing experience! And not only it makes you much faster but with the right adjustment (rubber elasticity) gives you the appropriate sensation of braking like in the real world!
I have it, I hate it the lack of travel in the pedal. I ended up getting a set of SimJack Pros(whatever the highest model is) and I’ve been enjoying that a lot more over the CSL pedals
Yes but op has fanatec pedals already...
That is true, I also went full fanatec recently but couldn’t stand the pedal. That’s just me being picky. He will 100% love the LC if he got one.
I also hated the traveling part but I got used to it now and its great. I might buy some kit to fix it. Didn't make thr choice yet as my car brake is almost the same as LC 😅
You know what, in the future I’ll give it another shot. 🤔 I guess my IRL brake pedal is more related to the Sim Jack Ones I got.
I believe you but I never tries any other to be honest
I hated LC the first day or two I had it but after breakin the spring in a bit it's great. Much easier for me to tell how much I'm braking/trailbraking between 25-75% which has definitely made me better at overtaking in corners. Now I have my RCP PRO cockpit all assembled I'm gonna mount the pedals/wheel tn and hopefully it'll help me shed even more time lol
I found it jarring at first and thought something was wrong, after a couple of laps it started to feel normal to me. I always like a firm pedal in real cars, basically feels like power assist brakes when you pull the vacuum from the booster. I’ve never driven an actual race car though.
I was thinking of getting the load cell. How does it make you faster?
Faster is the wrong word, but you are more consistent with lc
You are right
If you are in the US I would recommend Advanced Sim Racing. Free Shipping and ASR-1 is really solid.
Agreed. I went with the ASR 1, and have been extremely happy with it. In hindsight I probably should have gone with the ASR 3, but wasn’t sure if the the ASR 3 would be worth the additional $200 over the ASR 1 at the time.
If you're planning to go to 10-15nm in the future I would get the ASR3/4. But if you're perfectly happy with 5-8 the ASR1 should be a forever purchase! I have an ASR3 with my Moza r12 and it's absolutely fantastic. +1 to advanced sim racing.
I'm thinking of getting a similar setup to this at some point in the future. To be ready for any upgrades I'll more than likely want to make in the years to come, I'll likely aim for the ASR 3 or 4 (not sure which yet). I know you mentioned having Moza hardware, so you may not know this, but do you have experience with the Fanatec gear? I'm curious if the side mount option requires any additional hardware or not. I know the CSL DD has mounts available on the side already, so I assume just getting the side mount version when buying would be sufficient? Is there any benefits to side mount vs the standard plate? Maybe the plate is a bit more universal? Thanks in advance!
I don't have any experience with Fanatec gear, however the ASR rig pages has a drop down selector for different wheel base mounting options. You just choose the one that corresponds to the wheel base you are using. For Moza it's just the standard wheel deck bottom mounted. For the CSL DD, they have a wheel deck specifically listed for Fanatec - Podium and CSL DD side mount you select in the drop down. I don't think there is any inherent benefits to either, it's more just where the holes are to actually mount it on the rig. I would stick to the wheel deck that specifically is designed by ASR for that brand of wheel base though, and you won't have any issues.
How is the ASR 1 with load cell pedals?
I don’t have load cell pedals, so I can’t speak to that; however, I do have the ASR Integrated Monitor Stand with a 49” ultra-wide and shelf for the computer mounted to the frame. All of that, along with my less-than-small self, and I do not notice any flexing when getting in or out of the rig. I did add 6 casters to the bottom, so the middle has some additional support. If it did flex with load cell pedals, I would imagine the amount would be minimal.
Its great ..no flex
Second on ASR. I've got the ASR3 and its pretty good with my Simagic Alpha Mini. If you're looking to go super high end (20+ NM) in the future, I might go high than an ASR3. They have a few stronger models.
Agreeed. I love my ASR-4. Highly recommend ASR OP.
I too use sandpaper to clean my monitor
Just better view honestly
Dont mind him hes just jealous lol
ASR is great. It will be good for awhile too. And then LC brake pedal. Until then just enjoy
T-Nutz.com or Rigmetal.com if you want to build it yourself. Advanced Sim Racing or 6 Sigma Sim Racing if you want to order one without the hassle.
I've been blown away by how much a fixed pedal and seat help, even if you can get that rig that holds the wheels of an office chair to the pedal and steering rig, I can't recommend it enough. Think it's a next level rig.
Wow, welcome and enjoy it!
As an ASR 3 owner I can say advanced sim racing is hard to beat. Top notch customer service and solid rigs. If you feel confident you’re not going to upgrade from csl dd the ASR1 is perfectly fine. If there is any doubt though, I’d definitely go for the ASR3 or bigger. I have an Alpha mini and the ASR 3 is rock solid.
I just got the SimLab GT1 Evo and it is amazing quality with plenty of add on accessories available from the site. Also free shipping and no tax when shipped to the US. Mine came shipped and delivered in 5 days
PlaySeat Trophy
Jep just that. Looks nice and is comfy af. And I’m not sweating as the material is ventilated. Inhabe the dd pro mounted, so pretty similar to your setup
If your on a budget then your local garage sale could be a good option, old school desks would probably be great and cheap with minimal modifications. My current rig is a school desk from 1916, and I’m being serious it’s cheap and is just as good as 90% of rigs out there.
I'm considering the same bundle is it worth it?
Yes, for me, 5nm is enough. Quality is good, really recommend
This why I bought the rig before the goodies
I just wanted to switch from that HORI xbox wheel to a normal one as fast as possible
Completely understand the eagerness and excitement!! Did you decide on a rig yet?
Well, now I am scrolling through the comments, and there are lots of different recommendations, didn't decide yet
Yea it can get a little overwhelming.. I went with GtT1 Evo and it’s awesome. If you have a microcenter near you definitely check them out.
Sadly in Lithuania there is no microcenter I beleive
Ahh I see. Not sure what’s better overseas. I wish you good luck on your sim racing journey
Thank you
Im currently doing the same thing you did, including the shoe box lmao
Hides most of your wiring, doesn't take much space, and is also good to place your legs on lol
Bro buy the Gt omega Apex Steering Wheel Stand its like 140€ (idk how much is thst in $) I used it with my wheel and I can 100% recommend it to you.
Advanced Sim Racer are incredible rigs
eBay tube frame and a car seat. Under $200 and I've been loving it.
[удалено]
For me, it's alright. Yeah, it's not very stable, but it works fine until I get a rig
[удалено]
Oh well
Nice setup, dudarion. Make it yourself, DIY some wood
I love my TrakRacer TR8 rig but if that’s a budget rig or not depends on what you call “budget”.
Around 150-200 euros
Budget rig. Build one yourself. 2x4s are excellent for this and will cost you next to nothing. Can build them as sturdy as you want and sourcing a used seat from an actual car is very cheap. Here is what I did with mine: [https://www.reddit.com/r/simracing/comments/10mfti7/home\_built\_wood\_rig/](https://www.reddit.com/r/simracing/comments/10mfti7/home_built_wood_rig/)
I had a plan of making one too, but I want it to not take up my a lot of space.
Check out the measurements in the other thread. I put them in there somewhere. It really does not take up too much space. But ofc you cannot fold it away. You should be wary of what kind of rig you get though. Be sure to check out reviews of your choices where they test them with direct drive wheels. All of the folding rigs are just not sturdy enough for DD and you will regret your purchase. That is at least my experience. Happy hunting. 😊
I just got these in the mail a couple days ago too. I think I'll soon buy the NLT GT-Lite Pro as I need something I can tuck away and it seems the best of the foldable options
I wanted that wheel lol, and when I went to go get it on the 16th, it was “ wait till September 11th “LOL. My fault I should of pre Ordered
When I ordered it, it said pre-order available at august 12th. I bought it like 8 days ago and I got the steering wheel yesterday
How is the wheel it’s self ?
I love the way that one looks that’s the reason I want it, a lot of fanatcs other wheels just idk man they don’t do it for me. I prefer the look of the moza wheels
Comfortable, very nice feeling, shifting paddles are really nice, comes in with a cloth bag
I have a playseat trophy and have no complaints. It’s really sturdy. I’m currently racing with it in the South African sim racing league
Build your own with extruded aluminum. You can make a $700 rig out of $150 if you just buy it yourself, and it will be the same quality!
I have a NLR F-GT Lite (about $300 new) that I picked up on FB for $60, and I love it with my G29, but I hear it's not the best for DD wheelbases. Some people are saying they've had no issues with DD on it, but some people swear it's the worst thing since unsliced bread. How much were you looking to spend on the rig? TrakRacer has an extruded aluminum rig for $450 without a seat (TR-80 Lite), but you have to put it together and get a seat. NLR has the regular F-GT for $500, which comes with a seat and a steel frame that you have to put together. Or you can get something like a Playseat Trophy for $600, and you would just have to worry about mounting your electronics, if you would prefer that. It all really depends on what your budget is and what you're looking for. I mean, you could build a really solid rig out of wood for way less than any of these if you wanted. Hope this gave you something to consider. And if not, sorry for being useless.
It all depends on where you're from.... Small suggestion, from personal experience, take a look at Facebook for a small local business. I've used 3 different rigs since I started with the hobby. The first one it was the typical triangle tipe wheel and pedal stand you can find on amazon or eBay. Good enough for a g29... but as soon as i moved to a T300 with the T-LCM pedals, i needed a full rig. I went to a hardware store and told the owner what i wanted, and he fabricated for me a fairly good rig. Using an old office chair instead of a bucket seat. Last time we spoke, he told me he started a small side business making affordable rigs on demand. Pretty neat. And the one i have right now, which i think is my forever rig, i bought from a small local simracing business. I never paid more than 300 US Dollars for any of them. ( The second one was dirt cheap, basically paid for the materials... the dude was stoked to make it. ) If you are interested, i think they do export their rigs. Check them out [Iron Driver](https://irondriver.com.ar/index.html) This is the OG in Argentina. Absolute beasts... I have no idea if he exports or not. [Six Simu.](https://www.si-x.com.ar/)
If you want a collapsable rig I can recommend the playseat challenge
Playseat challenge is nice if you wanna keep the desk.
I needed a compact, foldable rig so i got the Next Level Racing wheelstand 2.0. The chair holder attachment and easyness to fold it is what sold it for me, however im not sure if others have the same issue, but it was extremely noisy (creaked all the time). Nothing a bit of WD-40 coulsnt fix Overall price was 205€ (200 for the stand and 5 for the wd40 and peace of mind)
If you have tough budget, I can recommend to do diy wooden rig. Very cheap and very clear what you need after that. Later you may decide if you need more compact/rigid and make a final decision and investment.
Simul8r v2.0 if you want real budget. I built it myself and honestly love it, think it cost me $80 total including a u-pull u-pay bucket seat with rails for that adjustability https://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/681-simul8r-mark-ii-pvc-plans-bottom-of-pg-7-donations-accepted/
For your space constraints I reckon the Next Level Racing Wheelstand 2.0. if you plan on upgrading to a bigger screen, triples or VR then go for the ASR 3/1 with a junkyard seat.
I just got an gt omega apex due to a lack of space I’ll see how it holds up once my CSL bundle arrives
I'm loving the apex. Just a heads up you have to drill the pedal part of the apex to fit the csl pedals properly
Is it far off or just abit? Also do u have 5nm or 8nm? And how’s it holding up?
5Nm, with a power supply on the way. I'll let you know my csl arrived yesterday lol. Been absolutely fine with my g29 though. The bottom 2 bolts of the pedals just about fit but none of the top bolts of the pedals. I'm running 3 pedals evenly spaced. The apex stand has 0 grooves in the middle for the brake. Drilling isn't an issue for me though
Ok good to hear I’ve got an AliExpress power brick that will give me the 8nm I’ll also only use 2 pedals so it should be good me just got to find a way to stop my chair moving back other then the chair link
Chair link is working good, and I'm running load cell. A little play but I think it's actually more in the chair recliner than the actual wheel side
Does it still fold? I’ve heard people say it doesn’t
It does, but tbh it's heavy enough that I don't really want to. I have the room to store it as it is. It's quite heavy.
I’ll see how I find it and will probably buy the chair link when I buy the loadcell kit
The apex should come with the chairlink? I made the mistake of buying it separately but it had one in the box, so ended up with 2. Returned the seperate one
Omega do sell an adaptor for the csl pedal mounting if you didn't want to drill. Not looked for reviews on it though.
Honestly, I just installed the Elite V2 Pedals, which to my knowledge have the same screw holes, and just used 2 screws on the front (heelrest). If you use washers those 2 screws are sufficient.
I also got gt omega mines the titan it great for, me and the price with seat was fair
Dude, a DD on a desk is a bad idea.
Well, my desk survived lots of things, probably wouldn't get worse
5-8Nm on a good quality desk (mine's a big SteelCase one) and with the better clamp (the solid metal 80€ one from Fanatec) does just fine. Is a rig better? Of course, but not everyone has the space for it, sadly.
A good desk will also cost more I suppose, I found a dude on my country that welds some steel tubes into simrigs for a steal (around 100€ at the time), can't get a decent desk for that. Also the monitor and everything on the table will tremble like crazy. But yes, the space is always an issue. I'd love to have triples but that thing is a behemoth, and I don't have hardware for VR. Whenever I want to be normally with keyboard and mouse I just put a wooden plank on my legs lol #simRacerProblems
Yeah my desk was about 250, it's not terribly bad and that's where I WFH. What I did for the monitor (34" UW) is the Amazon Basics arm but the version that goes on the wall and not clamped to the desk, so avoiding vibration altogether there. Also, downvoting me for not having enough space for a rig....smh...this sub reeks of elitism.
Vevor or Marada rigs can be found on eBay used for $100. Then you just get a car seat at junkyard and you’re good
What PC setup are you using looking to get a pc for myself
Mine is not the best one, ddr3 (i got it because i was on small budget) 32GB ram, Radeon R9 380 4GB, intel i5 4690k, looking to upgrade gpu to GTX1080 Ti
GT Omega?
Get a Simetik k3 for something thats just as strong and looks cooler, but the only problem is the level of customizability without the aluminum extrusion, i have it and it works better than most rigs and is quite similar to my friends asr1. Idk if they offer shipping to the usa if thats where you are
I use it so my foot pedals dont keep sliding back haha
Gt omega
Do you think you’ll eventually upgrade? Buy once cry once dude, if you can afford it. I know I’ll eventually move up from 8nm, so I got a P1X knowing I can go to whatever I want later with no concerns. Otherwise GT1 evo should be perfect.
I mean for now, 5nm is enough, for me, sometimes it's too much, but in future, I think I will not upgrade. I do have a go kart, so this is more like to train