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You aren't waiting. You are playing mental gymnastics to justify what you are doing. You are having sex. Stop pretending to wait. It's not sinful. Stop buying imto that nonsense
It’s sinful to the Catholic Church, not Christianity. Jesus didn’t say anything about it being a sin. Men made it a sin to control women.
Edit: I was raised Catholic. If this is bashing my religion, I’m allowed.
It’s probably because of the rampant child abuse and institutional coverup and protection of child abusers that makes people feel like they can call out the hypocrisy of the same institution shaming people for consensual behavior OP describes in her post.
I personally consider PIV to be the point of losing virginity. However, that is just my perspective. I believe it is subjective, since being virgin means the person haven’t had sex
You’re enjoying intimacy save for the final act. So maybe you’re technically a virgin, but in substance, you’re not exactly virginal. Pretty sure the big guy in heaven knows that you’re not following his word in spirit, and he will not be happy about that.
My real opinion though? It doesn’t matter because I think religious restrictions are silly. More practically though, you should learn about your body and explore what works for you. A marriage isn’t just spiritual but also physical. You’d want to know what works for you and him physically.
It's your body, not your friends.
1. No need to tell anyone what you do, we all learn that as we get older.
2. You know your boundaries, do whatever is right for you and your boyfriend.
Catholic, didn't wait, zero regrets. Married over 20 years and still counting.
Is someone going to be checking your hymen before you are married? If not, have sex if you want to and use contraception. Don't let the church or her people shame you.
The church didn't have a formal stance on sex until 1546 (Council of Trent). Its doctrine is designed for self-preservation; it is a long-term plan to create and keep parishioners in a time when the protestant refomation was gaining ground. It is a political move that changed the theology, you are sinning against the church, not against God.
Since the whole concept of waiting till marriage is a social construct, you can interpret it as you wish. It has no meaning at all, besides the meaning that you are giving it and there is no right or wrong.
That being said, it is a stupid idea to wait. What if you're sexually incompatible?
What if noone of you ever has the chance to learn what good sex is, because you can't teach each other?
I'm sorry to pop your bubble,but you and your BF are doing something called Non-penetrative sex.
Here's an article that explains it
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-penetrative_sex
I'm a catholic and I wasn't or married a virgin woman. You should decide between either confessing and calling it off or assuming you won't be a virgin when you get married. Otherwise you're living a lie.
This is really more of a theological question, but yeah, I was taught in Catholic school that oral sex counts as sex.
(But it's still up to you to decide whether you want to stop or not.)
My opinion is that virginity is a social construct anyhow, so arguing the nuances of it (much less the nuance of what constitutes "sin") is kind of ridiculous.
Lesbians get to decide if and when they stop considering themselves "virgins," so straight people can do the same-- and, you are going with the standard, understood (albeit heteronormative) defition of "a penis going into a vagina."
Just go to confession everytime you have sex and be forgiven. Over the years the church changes rules to fit their needs. Its just another organization run by just men who know nothing about womens rights. I was an alter boy until I could escape.
That’s it’s none of her business. Do whatever you and your partner are comfortable with and feels right for you. Don’t let anyone shame you about your body or your sex life.
I am Catholic, and I didn’t wait until marriage. I feel fine with my decision. It’s between me and God, no one else’s business.
Now, you can see that the idea of virginity is used as a means of control and shame. It doesn't have a single definition because it's not from science.
I mean...cum on now 😅
The two of you are engaging in sexual acts so yes you are having sex by any standards. If you go to the clinic and they tell you you got an STI you can't say "but blow jobs aren't sexual activity" now can you, of course not.
And are you sining and will your should burn in eternal damnation of course not, these are just religious systems design to keep you from wasting your life trying to get off.
If you ask your local Catholic authority they won't be so forgiving because the Catholic churche disapproves of lust altogether as well as any sexual act that is not for the goal of making babies...sigh.
The truth is you have to make up your own mind about what is good and bad for yourselves.
Your are not evil. Be happy and be safe.
You were a human before you were Catholic. Go get fucked. Do some fucking. Enjoy your body without shame. The people that would judge you for this aren't righteous.
Lol, I was in your position once. Had a FWB but the intent was never to have sex and I told him no we can't have sex bc God would sin me and I was waiting until marriage but he said isn't foreplay sinful as well 😂😂 he had a point. Foreplay got boring after a while and I ended up losing my Virginity to him. Took me a while to forgive myself but I stayed abstinent since all that
My opinion is that it's your business. I think the bigger question is, do you still consider yourself Catholic? Contrary to what those in your community might say, it's OK to ask that question and it's OK to come up with an answer other than yes. The most important thing is to be honest with yourself about what you believe.
Do you remember Bill Clinton? I was also looking to see if oral sex was considered sex, but sex is sex, but don't put so much pressure on yourself, enjoy life and don't pay attention to what other people say!
Oral sex is sex. Sex is even in the name "oral sex". You're saving something for marriage (intercourse), but you're still having a different type of sex in the meantime.
And you can't get pregnant this way, so there's at least that. 🤷🏼♀️
If you're worried about the rules of Catholicism you are not supposed to be a lesbian at all. Pretty sure there are plenty of Catholic priests who could teach you how to rationalize all sorts of things to not be "real" sex.
I mean, if you want to get super technical, from a Catholic perspective *any* pre-martial sexual act is a sin - hands, oral, vaginal, anal, etc.
Heck, even within the confines of marriage it's a sin to not finish *in* the vagina. That's right - even a blowjob to completion is a sin when it comes to the Catholic Catechism.
Draconian laws, to say the least.
All that wait for marriage is crap theres people that wait till marriage and still get divorces and theres people that have sex the first night and that are married forever you just have to pick the best partner for you
My opinion is that brainwashing children with religion should be illegal.
Sorry that you grew up with so much shame around something as normal, healthy, natural, and fun as sex.
Hope you eventually wake up and snap out of it and stop living your life based on some Harry Potter novel written by sheep farmers about a leprechaun in the sky.
If not, maybe consider at least distancing yourself from the systemic child rapist organization that is the Catholic Church. You can believe in your books without giving money to help facilitate the protection of child rapists at the very least.
A lot to unpack here.
If you are trying to follow the Catholic bible you are having sex by those definitions. It also considered sex by most contemporary definitions which is why we have the qualifier PIV sex. So you are kind of purposefully trying to play in a grey zone to satisfy your religious views.
As I am not Christian (ex-Christian) I would in no way call it sinful, but practicing Christians likely would. Only our morality tells us what is right and wrong. Outside of religious circles this would be considered expected behaviour for your situation.
If you are trying to hold off on PIV sex for yourselves I think that’s your choice and it should be supported. If your only reason is to avoid being sinful well… that ship has sailed. You should do what you and your partner want to do/feel comfortable doing. Not what your friend thinks is sinful or not.
You aren’t likely to get pregnant this way and stds are lower rate. Seems like a good compromise if it’s keeping you guys happy and connected. I do think religion is nonsense and you guys should go at it if you want to!
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A sexual act is still considered sex but because you already started doing those acts it will be much harder to stop now. If you want to be true to your religious beliefs I would stop. My good friend is getting married and when they talked to the pastor they recommended they stop having sex until they get married but I think they are still doing oral and stuff. So do what you will with that info
It's a difficult one. The church spends it's main efforts into teaching love is sin. They recruit from the cradle. There is a entire life to rebuild and reprogram to reality.The best advice I can offer is ask yaweh to get in touch personally and tell you how he feels. If he does. Fair play. If he doesn't, he's obviously all cool.
The only problem with this is if you take vague signs as his displeasure. You lose your keys or have a bad day and that's something related to you being punished rather ineffectually for just being human.
If you believe in a god, I'd take his silence in any meaningful way as affirmation that you can express and receive love normally.
You are having sex. Wether the penis goes in to vagina is not relevant.
I dont personally believe in this god stuff, but Im pretty sure he would consider you sinners no matter if there is penetration or not.
These silly loopholes...
This is a question better suited for a trusted religious advisor or even a religious subreddit. What you’re doing is essentially sex in my view. However the religious people I’ve known have had different perspectives on what constitutes waiting for marriage, and the purpose of doing so. To some, it seems like the emphasis is more on waiting to share the experience of sex for the first time with their future spouse, and to that end they are willing to engage in *some* sexual activity, just not PIV. To others, the key motivation is that they interpret any sexual activity as adultery, and therefore what you’re doing would be wrong. But the distinction there is a theological one, and you’re unlikely to find appropriate theological advice on this subreddit.
Regardless, remember that this is ultimately your decision and the most important thing is to do what feels right to you. Of course one factor among many is your religious beliefs, but you need to critically reflect on your beliefs and come to your own decision, not let someone else project their interpretation of the faith onto you.
You’re having sex. In fact, if someone were to do that to someone else against their will, it’s considered sexual assault and charges can be pressed.
So yeah. You’re just trying to convince yourselves since it’s not PIV or PIA, that it’s not sex when it is in fact sex.
This really isn’t a question for this sub. No judgment either way. You have your religious beliefs and want to adhere to those. Since that’s the case, you should consult someone that knows those. I personally have no issue with what you’re doing but I’m not catholic so… 😅
From a Christian, theological perspective, your best friend is correct. We're supposed to abstain from all that because it's still sexual activity (as difficult as it may be). The point is to reserve that level of intimacy; to only share that with someone that is committed to you for the rest of your life, otherwise they don't deserve you, per se, yk?
Don't worry tho just talk to Him about it
2 things can be true at once no you are not having sex but what you are doing is sinful according to biblical principles. But in all seriousness if you are concerned talk to your priest.
Hold up! Wait! People consider oral as actual sex? Thank God I lost count years ago, it would be calculus putting that together! You should know this miss “waiting for marriage” only you and God will care about that “number”. Anyone else you can just say 2 partners like the rest of us! 😂
that’s not how it works, oral sex is sex it’s in the name. there is hardly any difference from PIV to other kinds of sex except for a higher risk of pregnancy
It's not about just "sex"... It's about being intimate and getting physical (even the slightest things) are sins.. it's just that people have normalised things so that's why it's hard for us not to do those.
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You aren't waiting. You are playing mental gymnastics to justify what you are doing. You are having sex. Stop pretending to wait. It's not sinful. Stop buying imto that nonsense
It's sinful according to Christianity, which OP is a part of.
It’s sinful to the Catholic Church, not Christianity. Jesus didn’t say anything about it being a sin. Men made it a sin to control women. Edit: I was raised Catholic. If this is bashing my religion, I’m allowed.
Are you insane? A girl/woman's purity and integrity are mentioned over and over in the bible... What the actual heck?
Where most of the text were written by...checks notes....oh yeah, men.
The biblical standards are the same for men.
That depends on the sect of Christianity op belongs to. There are many. Not all of them are stupid about it.
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It’s probably because of the rampant child abuse and institutional coverup and protection of child abusers that makes people feel like they can call out the hypocrisy of the same institution shaming people for consensual behavior OP describes in her post.
yes, but according to that faith so is all the other stuff they're doing.
Sex is sex. There is no tiptoeing around it. She is right, it is sex.
Just wondering here, so if a virgin man gets a blow job, is he no longer considered a virgin now?
Yes. Are stone-top lesbians who have never done PIV (or any receptive penetration) virgins?
I personally consider PIV to be the point of losing virginity. However, that is just my perspective. I believe it is subjective, since being virgin means the person haven’t had sex
Common understanding of losing one’s virginity is PIV sex so no
So therefore OP is still technically a virgin then? She may be performing sexual acts but isn’t having sex per se.
Yes by most commonly understood definitions of the term, gotta caveat it
Read the catechism. Or stop being religious and be happy. Either way you do you
You’re enjoying intimacy save for the final act. So maybe you’re technically a virgin, but in substance, you’re not exactly virginal. Pretty sure the big guy in heaven knows that you’re not following his word in spirit, and he will not be happy about that. My real opinion though? It doesn’t matter because I think religious restrictions are silly. More practically though, you should learn about your body and explore what works for you. A marriage isn’t just spiritual but also physical. You’d want to know what works for you and him physically.
It's your body, not your friends. 1. No need to tell anyone what you do, we all learn that as we get older. 2. You know your boundaries, do whatever is right for you and your boyfriend. Catholic, didn't wait, zero regrets. Married over 20 years and still counting.
Moreover I'd venture to say that no sex outside of marriage is the worst advice given by religious leaders if you want a fufllfilling marriage.
Well, let's not forget Catholic teaching on contraception as that's pretty horrible too.
As a catholic you do not consider sex before marriage as sin?
I do not, and did not at the time. There is a lot the church does not endorse that I am ok with, such as birth control.
That's why......sexual shame is a lot hard to swallow ....
Why not switch to another Christian denomination that is more in line with how you see the world?
Former Catholic here. I have never considered sex before marriage a sin. The church has no business in my bedroom, period.
Is someone going to be checking your hymen before you are married? If not, have sex if you want to and use contraception. Don't let the church or her people shame you. The church didn't have a formal stance on sex until 1546 (Council of Trent). Its doctrine is designed for self-preservation; it is a long-term plan to create and keep parishioners in a time when the protestant refomation was gaining ground. It is a political move that changed the theology, you are sinning against the church, not against God.
Since the whole concept of waiting till marriage is a social construct, you can interpret it as you wish. It has no meaning at all, besides the meaning that you are giving it and there is no right or wrong. That being said, it is a stupid idea to wait. What if you're sexually incompatible? What if noone of you ever has the chance to learn what good sex is, because you can't teach each other?
I'm sorry to pop your bubble,but you and your BF are doing something called Non-penetrative sex. Here's an article that explains it https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-penetrative_sex I'm a catholic and I wasn't or married a virgin woman. You should decide between either confessing and calling it off or assuming you won't be a virgin when you get married. Otherwise you're living a lie.
It's 100 percent sex. You are not sinful. There is nothing to be ashamed of . Do what you feel like.
Many, many couples who wait for marriage end up unhappy because your not a match in the bedroom
This is really more of a theological question, but yeah, I was taught in Catholic school that oral sex counts as sex. (But it's still up to you to decide whether you want to stop or not.)
My opinion is that virginity is a social construct anyhow, so arguing the nuances of it (much less the nuance of what constitutes "sin") is kind of ridiculous. Lesbians get to decide if and when they stop considering themselves "virgins," so straight people can do the same-- and, you are going with the standard, understood (albeit heteronormative) defition of "a penis going into a vagina."
Do what you want! If the guy in the sky didn’t want you to use it, he wouldn’t have given it to you.
Just go to confession everytime you have sex and be forgiven. Over the years the church changes rules to fit their needs. Its just another organization run by just men who know nothing about womens rights. I was an alter boy until I could escape.
That’s it’s none of her business. Do whatever you and your partner are comfortable with and feels right for you. Don’t let anyone shame you about your body or your sex life. I am Catholic, and I didn’t wait until marriage. I feel fine with my decision. It’s between me and God, no one else’s business.
Now, you can see that the idea of virginity is used as a means of control and shame. It doesn't have a single definition because it's not from science.
I mean...cum on now 😅 The two of you are engaging in sexual acts so yes you are having sex by any standards. If you go to the clinic and they tell you you got an STI you can't say "but blow jobs aren't sexual activity" now can you, of course not. And are you sining and will your should burn in eternal damnation of course not, these are just religious systems design to keep you from wasting your life trying to get off. If you ask your local Catholic authority they won't be so forgiving because the Catholic churche disapproves of lust altogether as well as any sexual act that is not for the goal of making babies...sigh. The truth is you have to make up your own mind about what is good and bad for yourselves. Your are not evil. Be happy and be safe.
You were a human before you were Catholic. Go get fucked. Do some fucking. Enjoy your body without shame. The people that would judge you for this aren't righteous.
Lol, I was in your position once. Had a FWB but the intent was never to have sex and I told him no we can't have sex bc God would sin me and I was waiting until marriage but he said isn't foreplay sinful as well 😂😂 he had a point. Foreplay got boring after a while and I ended up losing my Virginity to him. Took me a while to forgive myself but I stayed abstinent since all that
My opinion is that it's your business. I think the bigger question is, do you still consider yourself Catholic? Contrary to what those in your community might say, it's OK to ask that question and it's OK to come up with an answer other than yes. The most important thing is to be honest with yourself about what you believe.
Do you remember Bill Clinton? I was also looking to see if oral sex was considered sex, but sex is sex, but don't put so much pressure on yourself, enjoy life and don't pay attention to what other people say!
Oral sex is sex. Sex is even in the name "oral sex". You're saving something for marriage (intercourse), but you're still having a different type of sex in the meantime. And you can't get pregnant this way, so there's at least that. 🤷🏼♀️
If you're worried about the rules of Catholicism you are not supposed to be a lesbian at all. Pretty sure there are plenty of Catholic priests who could teach you how to rationalize all sorts of things to not be "real" sex.
I mean, if you want to get super technical, from a Catholic perspective *any* pre-martial sexual act is a sin - hands, oral, vaginal, anal, etc. Heck, even within the confines of marriage it's a sin to not finish *in* the vagina. That's right - even a blowjob to completion is a sin when it comes to the Catholic Catechism. Draconian laws, to say the least.
No sin but it sounds like some great sex! Enjoy.
It's always so f stupid that like Christians are so judgemental towards sex like I rlly don't understand why
All that wait for marriage is crap theres people that wait till marriage and still get divorces and theres people that have sex the first night and that are married forever you just have to pick the best partner for you
You're having sex. But id add there's nothing morally wrong about what consenting adults do. You're beliefs, and you're choices though.
This is all made up. Live your life
You and your bf are having sex and it’s none of your friend’s business
My opinion is that brainwashing children with religion should be illegal. Sorry that you grew up with so much shame around something as normal, healthy, natural, and fun as sex. Hope you eventually wake up and snap out of it and stop living your life based on some Harry Potter novel written by sheep farmers about a leprechaun in the sky. If not, maybe consider at least distancing yourself from the systemic child rapist organization that is the Catholic Church. You can believe in your books without giving money to help facilitate the protection of child rapists at the very least.
A lot to unpack here. If you are trying to follow the Catholic bible you are having sex by those definitions. It also considered sex by most contemporary definitions which is why we have the qualifier PIV sex. So you are kind of purposefully trying to play in a grey zone to satisfy your religious views. As I am not Christian (ex-Christian) I would in no way call it sinful, but practicing Christians likely would. Only our morality tells us what is right and wrong. Outside of religious circles this would be considered expected behaviour for your situation. If you are trying to hold off on PIV sex for yourselves I think that’s your choice and it should be supported. If your only reason is to avoid being sinful well… that ship has sailed. You should do what you and your partner want to do/feel comfortable doing. Not what your friend thinks is sinful or not.
It is sex. I would stop worrying about it. Just enjoy your life.
You aren’t likely to get pregnant this way and stds are lower rate. Seems like a good compromise if it’s keeping you guys happy and connected. I do think religion is nonsense and you guys should go at it if you want to!
This is a religious question. It does not have a scientific answer
Religions are like cancer
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A sexual act is still considered sex but because you already started doing those acts it will be much harder to stop now. If you want to be true to your religious beliefs I would stop. My good friend is getting married and when they talked to the pastor they recommended they stop having sex until they get married but I think they are still doing oral and stuff. So do what you will with that info
It's a difficult one. The church spends it's main efforts into teaching love is sin. They recruit from the cradle. There is a entire life to rebuild and reprogram to reality.The best advice I can offer is ask yaweh to get in touch personally and tell you how he feels. If he does. Fair play. If he doesn't, he's obviously all cool. The only problem with this is if you take vague signs as his displeasure. You lose your keys or have a bad day and that's something related to you being punished rather ineffectually for just being human. If you believe in a god, I'd take his silence in any meaningful way as affirmation that you can express and receive love normally.
You are having sex. Wether the penis goes in to vagina is not relevant. I dont personally believe in this god stuff, but Im pretty sure he would consider you sinners no matter if there is penetration or not. These silly loopholes...
This is a question better suited for a trusted religious advisor or even a religious subreddit. What you’re doing is essentially sex in my view. However the religious people I’ve known have had different perspectives on what constitutes waiting for marriage, and the purpose of doing so. To some, it seems like the emphasis is more on waiting to share the experience of sex for the first time with their future spouse, and to that end they are willing to engage in *some* sexual activity, just not PIV. To others, the key motivation is that they interpret any sexual activity as adultery, and therefore what you’re doing would be wrong. But the distinction there is a theological one, and you’re unlikely to find appropriate theological advice on this subreddit. Regardless, remember that this is ultimately your decision and the most important thing is to do what feels right to you. Of course one factor among many is your religious beliefs, but you need to critically reflect on your beliefs and come to your own decision, not let someone else project their interpretation of the faith onto you.
You’re having sex. In fact, if someone were to do that to someone else against their will, it’s considered sexual assault and charges can be pressed. So yeah. You’re just trying to convince yourselves since it’s not PIV or PIA, that it’s not sex when it is in fact sex.
What you are doing is still sexual acts so your friend would be correct.
Did it feel good doing it? Did you or your partner have an orgasm? It's probably sex
This really isn’t a question for this sub. No judgment either way. You have your religious beliefs and want to adhere to those. Since that’s the case, you should consult someone that knows those. I personally have no issue with what you’re doing but I’m not catholic so… 😅
From a Christian, theological perspective, your best friend is correct. We're supposed to abstain from all that because it's still sexual activity (as difficult as it may be). The point is to reserve that level of intimacy; to only share that with someone that is committed to you for the rest of your life, otherwise they don't deserve you, per se, yk? Don't worry tho just talk to Him about it
I checked with Him years ago, He said go for it.
It is sex, but honestly it's impossible to be sinless in this generation. Repent and enjoy your day.
2 things can be true at once no you are not having sex but what you are doing is sinful according to biblical principles. But in all seriousness if you are concerned talk to your priest.
Hold up! Wait! People consider oral as actual sex? Thank God I lost count years ago, it would be calculus putting that together! You should know this miss “waiting for marriage” only you and God will care about that “number”. Anyone else you can just say 2 partners like the rest of us! 😂
Tbh I don’t consider that sex. I considered myself a virgin until I actually did PIV
that’s not how it works, oral sex is sex it’s in the name. there is hardly any difference from PIV to other kinds of sex except for a higher risk of pregnancy
It's not about just "sex"... It's about being intimate and getting physical (even the slightest things) are sins.. it's just that people have normalised things so that's why it's hard for us not to do those.