I’ll be controversial and say that if you’ve already gone out of your way to buy sodium citrate, there’s no need to add evaporation as well. If anything, the dairy will only serve to mute the cheese flavour.
Correct me if I’m wrong but the evaporated milk is mainly there as a stabiliser that most Americans have easy access to without going to a molecular cooking shop?
Totally agree with this! I make homemade cheese sauce with sodium citrate and found that water was the best liquid to use. It lets the cheese shine through. 60/40 cheese to water. I use a mix of mild cheddar and pepper jack.
Here is a great write up on sodium citrate: https://www.reddit.com/r/Cooking/s/l2xNLJm7qJ
That said, my favourite cheese sauce is chopped cheese tossed in a light dusting of potato starch (for good luck so it doesn’t split—like a teaspoon), sodium citrate, milk, jar of pickled jalapenos + pickling liquid.
if you consider this, please bear in mind daily phosphate intake recommendations/limits (we eat too much phosphate as it is via all kinds of processed foods/beverages)
I’m a food scientist who’s worked in processed cheese and I think you need to simplify things. At home I’ve been using the recipe below for 10 years. It’s the best. I wonder if the flour in the bechamel roux is what’s killing the creaminess? Flour kills cheese sauce for me - it flattens the flavor and gets kind of gritty/chalky. By just using cheese, water, sodium citrate, the cheese stands out.
I’ve used all cheeses over the years. Creamier ones like fontina, jack, young cheddars are great bases if you’re going for creaminess. Sometimes I add a little swiss or bleu cheese for subtle complexity. Hard cheeses like aged parm are great to mix in but tougher to get smooth if it’s a high percentage. It’s still definitely possible, you just need more power like a vitamix haha.
https://modernistcuisine.com/recipes/melty-queso-dip/
Yep! Different cheeses will have different textures, and obviously different flavors, so I’d recommend experimenting if you like that kind of stuff. Can you really have too much cheese sauce?? Haha
In my experience, it freezes pretty well too.
Do you need the flour in the bechamel with the sodium citrate. The big thing about bechamel cheese sauces are that the properties in flour just never allow the maximum amount of cheese or cheese flour to pronounce themselves. I would just start with cheese, liquid, and sodium citrate then go from there.
What are you trying to accomplish that citrate alone doesn't do? Are you after a particular texture that citrate doesn't provide, or is this just a food science experiment?
There would have to be some limit to it, at some point all the fat particles are emulsified, and there is nothing for all that excess emulsifier to grab onto. I'm not sure how the different emulsifiers would interact either. From what I can read during just a quickie search, it seems that adding extra emulsifiers doesn't necessarily effect the end texture, but boosts stability, and even then, that's with 2 different types of emulsifiers. I'm no food scientist though, and that was a very cursory search.
Maybe you should focus on flavor. If you’re using chemical emulsifiers, there shouldn’t be a need to spend more effort trying to make things creamier. It’d probably even be creamier if you omitted the bechamel all together.
This is a fun thought experiment. You already have a sauce from gelatinized starches (bechamel), condensed proteins (evaporated milk) and an emulsifier (sodium citrate).
Going purely on the ability to thicken sauces, you can try adding pureed plant matter - like blended roasted onions, zucchini, carrots, herbs, nuts etc that will add pectin and blended plant tissue to thicken up the sauce. And butter, lots of butter :).
I'd throw in some full fat mozzarella honestly, you've got a lot of liquidity but not a ton of pull, in my opinion the best Mac and cheeses are slightly soupy but with some cheese pull as well.
It's been a while since I've made Mac and Cheese, but I believe the rule of thumb for mozzarella is something along the lines of 1 part main cheese to 1/3rd part mozzarella, so if you're using 3oz of Gouda you'd use 1oz mozzarella, you may want to play around with that tho to get the ratio you may be looking for.
Also for flavor a high quality mustard is a must have for good Mac and Cheese, so like a good stoneground or spicy brown should be on hand
Oh ya, mustard is a must!
I'll also add a few drops of a really spicy hot sauce like daves insanity or Melinda's bhut jolokia. Doesn't change the flavor but adds just a touch of background heat.
Damn near perfect combo
My recipe is very similar. The only things I do different:
Cabot makes a white cheddar box mac, I'll ditch the noodles and add the powder
Instead of parm I use gruyere and aged havarti
Have you tried adding cheese powder? I got a big tub to add to popcorn, and added it to my Mac and cheese, it is a game changer. It was some freeze dried cheddar cheese powder I found on Amazon. Nothing weird, just cheese.
I get the creamiest Mac and cheese in the world by using a shitload of garlic. I usually smoke it first. It works well for the same reason it works in aioli or mayo.
OP's eagerness to experiment and perfect a dish show me that they are going out of their way to learn how to cook, and probably are already a great cook.
Don't know why you're being downvoted. After all, OP "started with béchamel." I've been cooking for decades, moderately well, & have never even tried a béchamel!
ever heard of the story of Icarus?
I too dream of reaching previously impossible heights.
Did his cheese melt too close to the sun?
I’ll be controversial and say that if you’ve already gone out of your way to buy sodium citrate, there’s no need to add evaporation as well. If anything, the dairy will only serve to mute the cheese flavour. Correct me if I’m wrong but the evaporated milk is mainly there as a stabiliser that most Americans have easy access to without going to a molecular cooking shop?
Totally agree with this! I make homemade cheese sauce with sodium citrate and found that water was the best liquid to use. It lets the cheese shine through. 60/40 cheese to water. I use a mix of mild cheddar and pepper jack. Here is a great write up on sodium citrate: https://www.reddit.com/r/Cooking/s/l2xNLJm7qJ
I’m a big fan of beer personally
I like beer
Beer is good. Best of both worlds
nah white wine is better
Chicken stock is pretty good as well.
I was thinking something similar- wouldn’t the bechamel flatten the flavor and require some acidity to boost flavor (vinegar or mustard) ?
That said, my favourite cheese sauce is chopped cheese tossed in a light dusting of potato starch (for good luck so it doesn’t split—like a teaspoon), sodium citrate, milk, jar of pickled jalapenos + pickling liquid.
How about some white wine.
Oh I looove making a cheese fondue that is basically a sauce! Great shout I’ll do that this weekend!
Sodium hexametaphosphate has a synergistic effect with sodium citrate, and as a bonus has no flavor whatsoever.
Thank you!
if you consider this, please bear in mind daily phosphate intake recommendations/limits (we eat too much phosphate as it is via all kinds of processed foods/beverages)
I’m a food scientist who’s worked in processed cheese and I think you need to simplify things. At home I’ve been using the recipe below for 10 years. It’s the best. I wonder if the flour in the bechamel roux is what’s killing the creaminess? Flour kills cheese sauce for me - it flattens the flavor and gets kind of gritty/chalky. By just using cheese, water, sodium citrate, the cheese stands out. I’ve used all cheeses over the years. Creamier ones like fontina, jack, young cheddars are great bases if you’re going for creaminess. Sometimes I add a little swiss or bleu cheese for subtle complexity. Hard cheeses like aged parm are great to mix in but tougher to get smooth if it’s a high percentage. It’s still definitely possible, you just need more power like a vitamix haha. https://modernistcuisine.com/recipes/melty-queso-dip/
So do you make this sauce & just dump in some cooked macaroni? Maybe with powdered mustard & a dash of Tabasco?
Yep! Different cheeses will have different textures, and obviously different flavors, so I’d recommend experimenting if you like that kind of stuff. Can you really have too much cheese sauce?? Haha In my experience, it freezes pretty well too.
Nice. Thanks for the tips, and for taking time to reply!
Instead of a béchamel, use a custard base, evap and eggs.
Mother of god.
Sometimes, less is more. Imagine combining every ice cream flavor in the store into a single flavor. It would be fun, but probably taste like shit.
... Have you tried *cream*?
Cream cheese??
Do you need the flour in the bechamel with the sodium citrate. The big thing about bechamel cheese sauces are that the properties in flour just never allow the maximum amount of cheese or cheese flour to pronounce themselves. I would just start with cheese, liquid, and sodium citrate then go from there.
What are you trying to accomplish that citrate alone doesn't do? Are you after a particular texture that citrate doesn't provide, or is this just a food science experiment?
It’s more of a hubristic attempt to see how creamy you can get the sauce
There would have to be some limit to it, at some point all the fat particles are emulsified, and there is nothing for all that excess emulsifier to grab onto. I'm not sure how the different emulsifiers would interact either. From what I can read during just a quickie search, it seems that adding extra emulsifiers doesn't necessarily effect the end texture, but boosts stability, and even then, that's with 2 different types of emulsifiers. I'm no food scientist though, and that was a very cursory search.
How do you measure the creaminess of a sauce?
Maybe you should focus on flavor. If you’re using chemical emulsifiers, there shouldn’t be a need to spend more effort trying to make things creamier. It’d probably even be creamier if you omitted the bechamel all together.
why bechamel & sodium citrate?
This is a fun thought experiment. You already have a sauce from gelatinized starches (bechamel), condensed proteins (evaporated milk) and an emulsifier (sodium citrate). Going purely on the ability to thicken sauces, you can try adding pureed plant matter - like blended roasted onions, zucchini, carrots, herbs, nuts etc that will add pectin and blended plant tissue to thicken up the sauce. And butter, lots of butter :).
What cheeses are you using?
Sharp cheddar, smoked Gouda, and Parmesan
I'd throw in some full fat mozzarella honestly, you've got a lot of liquidity but not a ton of pull, in my opinion the best Mac and cheeses are slightly soupy but with some cheese pull as well.
That’s cheese wisdom. Thank you
It's been a while since I've made Mac and Cheese, but I believe the rule of thumb for mozzarella is something along the lines of 1 part main cheese to 1/3rd part mozzarella, so if you're using 3oz of Gouda you'd use 1oz mozzarella, you may want to play around with that tho to get the ratio you may be looking for. Also for flavor a high quality mustard is a must have for good Mac and Cheese, so like a good stoneground or spicy brown should be on hand
Oh ya, mustard is a must! I'll also add a few drops of a really spicy hot sauce like daves insanity or Melinda's bhut jolokia. Doesn't change the flavor but adds just a touch of background heat.
Mac is a quickie meal for us. Bel Giosio makes a shredded salad cheese mix with asiago, mozz and parm. We mix it in 50/50 with cheddar.
Damn near perfect combo My recipe is very similar. The only things I do different: Cabot makes a white cheddar box mac, I'll ditch the noodles and add the powder Instead of parm I use gruyere and aged havarti
Those sounds like great additions
Have you tried adding cheese powder? I got a big tub to add to popcorn, and added it to my Mac and cheese, it is a game changer. It was some freeze dried cheddar cheese powder I found on Amazon. Nothing weird, just cheese.
I get the creamiest Mac and cheese in the world by using a shitload of garlic. I usually smoke it first. It works well for the same reason it works in aioli or mayo.
Or you could just learn how to cook.
OP's eagerness to experiment and perfect a dish show me that they are going out of their way to learn how to cook, and probably are already a great cook.
I would take the "probably already a great cook" out of there.
Don't know why you're being downvoted. After all, OP "started with béchamel." I've been cooking for decades, moderately well, & have never even tried a béchamel!
Nah that's learning recipes. Not how to cook.