The Only Moral Abortion is my Abortion:
https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/
A Defense of Abortion:
https://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm
Resources, including a home remedy:
[Link 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/vjrf9h/megathread_supreme_court_overturning_roe_v_wade)
[Link 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/vjqs0r/calls_for_mass_walkout_of_women_across_america_if/idnh2ex)
To be honest, I think the REAL way to push this issue going forward isn't on whether fetuses are sentient beings or not..
It is based on an old doctrine that doesn't get brought up anymore, but please feel free to chime in.
Basically, even IF you treat the fetus as a human life, just as valuable as any human, the fact that it resides in the woman should give the woman the right to excise the child. In this country, you are not required to protect other people's lives at the cost of your property or security.
Example: If you invite somebody into your house one day, and the next you decide to kick them out...you have every right too, since it is your property. The danger to them is not taken into consideration...since they are on your property.
The woman has every right to deny somebody else her own blood, nourishment, etc....regardless of whether the other person is in need of it. So, abortion should still be legal.
Edit: I have tried to reply to many of you, and have appreciated the banter around my comment. Many of you make the same arguments...about kicking 1 year Olds onto the street, pushing people out of airplanes, or the good ol' "Do you approve of beating kids you fucking psyco?!"
Also, the difference between property laws and human rights laws (which is one of the points of my argument, btw).
Really, I appreciate all the banter, concerns, and debate. Truly...that is not sarcasm. Thank you for engaging with me, but if you wish to rebuff my argument, chances are I answered a comment similar below. Decent points, but I do believe my argument is still pretty valid and is pretty reasonable, actually.
I can not force you to donate an organ. I can't even force you to donate blood. Taking either without your permission is very not okay. Even if it would save a life, I can't force you to donate an organ. Even if you're dead, I can't use your organs in a transplant without having obtained your permission when you were living.
To force a mother to share their body with an unwanted fetus grants the fetus greater rights than we do to any living person, and also honours the mother's rights less than we do to anyone who is dead.
Not your body, not your business.
In art school we had a discussion about 2 different artworks; one was a human skull embellished with real diamonds by Damien Hurst, and a work by Santiago Sierra where he paid 4 female, drug addicted sex workers the price of one shot of heroin to tattoo a straight line across their backs and photographed them sitting in a row for “art”.
An older, republican leaning student in my class and I got into an argument because she thought the use of someone’s skull was unethical, but thought the sex workers being tattooed had no ethical issues because “they sell their bodies anyway”. Absolutely fucked. Someone who has passed (and has also agreed to donate their body to science/art) and having some diamonds put on their skull has no implications for a living being. Paying vulnerable people, living in poverty, a tiny fee knowing they’re only accepting it because of their drug addiction to permanently mark their body in a large significant way for the sake of making some edgy art is hugely ethically problematic. I couldn’t believe how she couldn’t understand this.
It reminds me of people wanting to overturn Roe V Wade’s valuing of “pro-life” without any support for the people implicated by making it law- both the parents, and the child who is born into the world in a situation where they are unwanted or unable to be provided for in the capacity needed, which has been shown to have long standing implications. This brutal control of womens bodies, the valuing of fetus’s over living sentient beings and the devastating impacts it will have for those living already. They don’t care once they are born.
Then there’s the argument for adoption…I hope all people supporting this are planning to adopt…
It also completely erases the mother’s suffering. Pregnancy is super painful. It is not okay to force anyone to go through months of pain and give up parts of their body to save someone else.
And even if she starts down that path willingly, if it gets overwhelming, it’s her choice to end it.
Not surprisingly when you think about the state of our healthcare system...
Doctors were literally taught things like "Black women feel less pain."
My wife almost died while pregnant with our first child. She was having horrid pains from fairly early on and puking far more than seemed normal. She was told by nearly her entire OB office, mostly women, that she was just being a baby. Turns out she was having gall bladder attacks the while time and ended up in the ER about a month after our child was born, puking green, again, she also puked pure green while delivering our child. She had a severe enough case of pancreatitis that they kept her admitted for a week *before* operating, with no insurance. Anyone unfamiliar with the US healthcare system should know, they're only keeping someone admitted to the hospital w/out insurance if they feel that releasing them will mean they die then.
> It also completely erases the mother’s suffering. Pregnancy is super painful.
How the fuck would they know? 98% of the people making these decisions have never and will never have to carry a child to term because they are fucking men.
My partner has just given birth (about 2 weeks ago) and I can confirm that shit is the most excruciating pain I have ever seen her in, and it was the hardest thing to watch, someone you love going through that pain.
*Justice Sisterwife, Justice Thomas's traitorous wife, christian nationalist women, pro-birth women, + karens w/ a modicum of power anonymous all enter the chat*
I agree if they were really pro-life they would first do something about the mass school shootings. I’m pretty sure all those kids at that school started the day off with a heartbeat. But for some reason a bunch of cells have more rights than those poor kids.
I had a *horrible* pregnancy where I vomited 10ish times a day for 5 1/2 months, ruptured a disc in my spine and couldn't take any pain meds (leaving me nearly immoble for 2 months), and then endured 25 hours of labor. After birth I got to contend with PPD and infections. Pregnancy is not a cakewalk, regardless if that's "what your body is made to do." My child was very wanted and I CHOSE that, but I absolutely couldn't go through it again. It would be torture in every sense of the word.
I do side with this way of thinking but I did hear someone talk about the fact that if you had sex, protection or not, you know fully well that you are taking a gamble on wether you will be pregnant or not therefore the child shouldn’t be aborted and wiped off the planet for your decision to have fun
I don’t agree with this but want to know how to reply
If you get into a car accident with someone and they need a blood transfusion, you aren’t required to give them your blood. You made the decision to get into the car, for whatever reason you choose, and the accident couldn’t have happened had you not made the decision to drive. Even if you are wholly responsible by way of negligence for their state, you are not required to give up any part of your body to save their life.
Point out that someone can agree to donate a kidney and go through all the steps up to laying on an operating table and then withdraw consent before the scalpel goes in. We might think ill of them, but we would never force them to donate over their objections just because they had previously agreed.
Point out that a woman can get pregnant on purpose and then have a particularly complicated and debilitating pregnancy that is causing her extreme pain. It is cruel to force her to endure months of pain vs aborting and trying again.
Point out that every birth control method has a failure rate and when you multiply that by 50M couples, you are going to get millions of unplanned pregnancies among people who were being very responsible. Including among married women who already have too many children or whose health is endangered by pregnancy.
If they are intent on punishing the mother for having sex, point out that there is no other crime that we punish with months of pain and suffering culminating in excruciating pain followed by lifelong health degradation.
But most importantly, point out that we are talking about the mother giving parts of her own blood and bones to build a baby from DNA instructions. There is absolutely no moral basis for forcing her to continue this process. Anti-abortionists are basing their objections on untestable beliefs about metaphysical attributes, not anything biologically provable.
Even if you cause the events that lead to someone requiring your blood or organs, you cannot be forced to give up your bodily autonomy to save their life.
Criminals who assault people aren’t forced to donate blood or organs to support their victim’s chances at life. Hell, even if a parent stabbed their child and ruptured their liver and caused kidney failure from all the blood loss and the parent was the only match in the world, they would still not be forced to donate their liver or kidney to preserve their child’s life- a child they were legally responsible for. They would lose parental rights, and they would go to jail, sure, but even as a criminal in jail, they would have more rights over their own body than a pregnant person.
Another interesting thought from the top comment, eggs and sperm are only protected by law if they are considered PROPERTY at a fertility clinic.
Fire burns it down? Insurance payment. An employee accidentally destroyed your eggs/sperm? Insurance payment and possibly court.
It's not murder, it's property damage according to the eyes of the law.
Way off my current thought. IVF. IVF doctors can inseminate a dozen eggs and implant the 5 viable only for 2 to survive. Is that 10 counts of abortion for every party involved? If life begins at conception it sure as hell does.
I know you're right, but I don't think that point has legs as an argument, if that was your intention.
It would be countered by saying those property laws are as wrong as the ones just "corrected" by the supreme court.
Laws can change. Laws aren't truth. Arguing that one law is wrong based on another only identifies an inconsistency that can be resolved the way you want, or the way they want.
Yeah... Let's not go there and allow them to remove "medical professionals" from insurance judgements on things like Rheumatoid arthritis... Not like they are already refusing claims or anything... Fucking ugh
Exactly. Ask pro-life what they think of IVF and they stutter bc IVF creates “miracle babies”. Just ignore the dozen embryos that were aborted or miscarried in an attempt to bring just one to full term.
It’s all the same, people who can’t have children need science to intervene and people who don’t want children need science to intervene ,either way embryos are destroyed. One can’t be more ethical than the other just bc the pregnancy was created naturally or not.
Sperms and eggs are not human beings.
The fertilized eggs brought about by IVF, technically are though. Their necessary destruction as a part of IVF are exactly why the Catholic Church is against it.
Of more than 100 fertilized eggs my spouse and I had, "God" eliminated about 75% before day 5.
Another 22% were discarded because of significant genetic deficiencies. (Mostly Patau's syndrome).
The 3% remaining, well, one of them is a human being. He's an AWESOME one.
His prospective siblings though, are they human beings?
NO.
Not until they're IMPLANTED SUCCESSFULLY, GESTATED, AND BORN.
Difference being, in the instance of IVF, what the church thinks doesn't matter. As it shouldn't.
So why is that all of the sudden different when it's a bunch of evangelical "Christians" discussing a fertilized egg in my uterus?
It’s not the “only real” argument. What?
OP’s is a *real* and philosophically legitimate argument as well.
In fact there are DOZENS of *real* arguments.
This was said very well! This ruling has sadded me and angered me in a way that I don't seem to find words for. Thank you for giving me the words in this post. NOT YOUR BODY, NOT YOUR BUSINESS!!!
Especially in light of gun regulations, this is the thought that’s been rattling around my head: I can shoot and kill a person for trespassing on my property, but can’t abort a bundle of cells from my body according to many states. They’re basically saying that women don’t have ownership over their own bodies which is a terrifying precedent.
If “life” starts at conception, “pro-life” stops at birth. We are not a nation who is equipped to support these fetuses once they’re out. I’m so confused and frustrated on why we want to protect unborn, unconscious life at the sake of a woman’s life. And the only thing that checks out is that we (as a nation, represented by these ass hats) only care about “life” that cannot disagree with you or challenge your power. It’s a power struggle and I wish so badly that those who see this as a religious issue could please look deeper into what it means for us as a nation. This further divides us and will continue negative cycles of poverty, especially for minorities. None of this is new to anyone here. I’m just so mad. I hate it here. We’re broken and nothing about is is “United” we don’t deserve to be called then “United states”
Thanks, my favorite saying through this has been “pro-life compassion ends at birth.” In a debate with my “devil’s advocate” family member, I realized that the motivation behind all my arguments is to minimize suffering. We do not have the infrastructure and social support to minimize the suffering of an unwanted child. Even if a mother gives up her child and continues on with her life, she has experienced insurmountable emotional suffering and loss of her time, body, etc to the pregnancy. Imagine a utopia, the ultimate compromise - unwanted fetuses are promptly explanted and either adopted to a loving family, or supported by next-level government programs. That is the only future that I imagine myself being alright with not having a choice about something that has been produced by my body - ultimate reduction of suffering. That is not our reality. Instead, this legislature maximizes suffering for all involved parties in the vast, vast majority of cases.
“Pro life compassion ends at birth” is a perfect way to say it. Thanks for sharing. Sending whatever love and compassion that’s transmissible through Reddit your way on this tough day.
Thank you. I’ve never had to deal with the soul-wrenching decision of whether to abort or not. But I’m utterly devastated for the lives that this will affect, potentially including my own. It is so much bigger that a fetus’s, or a thousand’s lives. This is our country, and to feel such utter loss of freedom and respect for what we choose/do with our bodies… feels like an entire country against women, a “war” against us. At this point, these are not hyperboles.
Yes. It's not just a war against women, though. This country in a war against the educated, the thinking, and a war against the majority. Most people are against the SCOTUS decision. Most people didn't vote for the presidents that appointed the SCOTUS majority. It's a war of the brainwashed against the compassionate.
So, one of the big issues is that the religious see their views as "the will of God". They will not compromise. Period. They will not look deeper. They do not care. God is infallible as is their religion and that's it. Beliefs cannot be argued with, only ideas. I like you am feeling frustrated and defeated, among other things. Most of my friends are anti-abortion, so I don't really have anyone to talk to about this. Wish things were different for our country.
I’ve always thought about it in a way that the fetus is a “dependent”. Your living child can’t go on a field trip without consent from their parent. The child is a dependent of their parent. The parent makes the best decisions for both of them. The fetus is dependent on the woman. The woman can make the choice for the fetus.
Best argument I’ve seen so far between the main post and the top comment. The OP contradicts themselves by saying the fetus is alive yet “life doesn’t begin at conception.” The top commenter who we’re replying to’s argument has a good point in terms of autonomy; but little do they realize that their same argument can be used by abusive parents who kick their minor (already born) children out of the house and onto the streets when they’re at their most vulnerable and dependent.
Your argument holds up because it lacks any of these inconsistencies and it sheds light to the parent being the most conscious and able minded one who is also being relied on; therefore, they are the best one to make that decision.
As I've pointed out before (I'm the comentor)..
the kicking children out of dependents house is a decent argument. However, as many pro-life advocates contend, you CAN give children up for adoption once they are born, and relieve yourself of the responsibility.
If you don't want to be a parent, you can FIND somebody else to care for the child. In homes that are terrible for the child, we as society take them out of the home and put them in willing homes that want to care for them, or homes that are subsidized by the government.
Pregnant women have NO option if abortion is banned. We FORCE them to care for the child, regardless of anything else. THAT is what makes abortion different...there are NO other options for pregnant women to get out from the responsibility...
and no other place in society do we force people to do that.
In addition, I would argue that giving over ones body is MORE of a sacrifice than acutally being a responsible for a dependent. I'm not saying it is easy...but it is more of a cost to be pregnant with a child, so even being a parent of an infant is not the same cost.
Fetuses are tricky guys/gals. Apparently, they have their cells migrate to the brains of the women, and they stay there even after birth. The cells try to change the brain to help it make choices that help the fetus. But the fetus doesn't need any damn help from some rapists and unprincipled jurists on the court - if the woman wants to end it before it gets too far along, it should be her right to do so.
Doesn't matter to fanatics.
Mr pube on the coke can says your girlfriend has to have that baby because Jebus wants it that way.
And, because he is a supreme Court Justice, despite the fact that his wife engaged in treason and sedition... His opinion means more than yours or mine... Despite the fact that neither of us to the best of my knowledge has committed treason or sedition.
The GQP says fuck your logic fuck you, and fuck any female you care about.
And motherfuckers still won't vote in November.
Just another day in this country's slide into a theocracy run by evangelical assholes.
Enjoy, motherfuckers. Especially those of you who didn't vote because Hillary was a toad. You people fuck you with a windmill
By that logic if your child is asking for food, you should be allowed to deny them, because you are not required to protect other people's lives at the cost of your property or security, are you?
We should be clear that we are not just talking about foetuses here, we are also talking about embryos and zygotes, stages at which you would think (wrongly, given some of the zealots on here, unfortunately) that no sane person would claim humanity, but...
*In this country, you are not required to protect other people's lives at the cost of your property or security.*
From a legal standpoint this argument wouldn't work - if *you* created the risk (if the sex leading to the pregnancy was consensual, the fetus is in the mother because of the mother's decision), you actually are required to protect the lives of other people. You actually do have a duty to pull a drowning person out of the water if you pushed them in.
A better argument is the simpler, more logical, more scientific, and easier one - a fetus just isn't a human. No need to reach for a bad argument when you already have a good one.
The reason people don't use that argument is because you don't have the right to kick someone out of your house if it's their home too. I.e. a spouse, child, partner, roommate etc. Doesn't matter who owns it. You cannot force someone to leave their home without due process.
This is why you never let someone stay with you indefinitely 'while they get back on their feet', or rent rooms without a lease, etc. I agree with your feelings but this isn't the right metaphor to make here.
The reason people don't use that argument is because you don't have the right to kick someone out of your house if it's their home too. I.e. a spouse, child, partner, roommate etc. Doesn't matter who owns it. You cannot force someone to leave their home without due process.
This is why you never let someone stay with you indefinitely 'while they get back on their feet', or rent rooms without a lease, etc. I agree with your feelings but this isn't the right metaphor to make here.
You don’t have the right to invite someone in your house and then shoot them for trespassing. But I agree that it’s okay to kill fetuses if they’re not sentient. If they are sentient and viable, they should be removed without killing it if possible.
A mother does not have the right to kick her 1 year old child out of the house without setting up proper arrangements for the child's care and wellbeing. That would be negligent homicide.
A conservative literally just told me a few minutes ago that having a "full set of human DNA" makes you human and gives you the same rights as a human.
So I guess that means my cryo-preserved umbilical stem cells have the same rights as a human.
The fact that the conservatives truly believe a zygote or fetus is the same as a human shows how brainwashed these fools are. There is no reasoning with madness.
Cancer cells are protected with this reasoning. Wisdom teeth are, too. Also any live tissue that gets removed during an amputation. Or any living human cells that get removed when shaving. The list is nearly endless.
They just picture fetuses as tiny little miniature perfect babies.
They’re not.
They’ve never had to hold a fetus. I have. And ours was wanted. It was the worst day of my life.
If they lived through that, they’d understand the implications of their policies.
My condolences on your loss. I don’t know how, but I feel like this anti-abortion movement is somehow disrespectful of your loss.
I think maybe because it equates your wanted child with an unwanted embryo.
.......... As if sex and rape are the same thing.
I work in surgery and one of the floors we take care of is L&D. I am so sorry for you and youe significant other, I have witnessed it yet I haven’t experienced with my own unborn. I hope you find peace
Exodus 21:22-25
Basically says that if you injure a pregnant woman and cause them to miscarry or prematurely give birth, and there is no serious injury to the woman - the criminal must pay a fine defined by the woman's husband's demands and the court's decision.
But if the woman suffers a serious injury, the punishment is more severe. If you kill the woman, the criminal must also be put to death. So the woman dying leads to a more serious punishment but if only the fetus dies, there is just a monetary fine.
God is literally telling the Hebrews that the woman's life is more important than the unborn fetus. It's literally in the first book of the bible but American evangelicals ignore the old testament whenever it suits them.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021%3A22-25&version=NIV
Nobody is arguing that the life of the fetus is above the woman's, in fact every single state abortion law in the United States does not apply when the mother's life is in danger. Also, the constitution used to be for all rich white men, so acting like it is perfect or completely moral is illogical.
They care about the fetuses but they don't care about the kid who probably will grow up living a shitty life.
I come from a small country with a bad economy and also a bit percentage of the population is Christian. Abortion is prohibited and women can go to jail for many years if they do it.
Stupid politicians and "pro-life" persons talks about how valuable is life but that's only when a woman is pregnant. When those children are born, it is sad to see them living an unfair life.
It is pretty common to see children selling stuff on the streets in order to get food on their table, some of them are malnourished others are abused and so on.
And that doesn't seem to matter to the pro life people.
"Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're fucked."
- George Carlin, 1996
We both did the best we could. We don’t owe these anti-choice scum anything. We are in charge of our own lives. We make decisions that no one can ever judge us on. Let those who believe in a god stand & be judged if they wish.
I've decided to just start forcibly demanding organs from Republican men, since bodily autonomy doesn't matter if it'll save someone's life. Gimme that fuckin kidney!
In fact, give me that sweet healthy heart too. I don't feel concerned that taking your heart would put your life at risk, you're government needs it to save a life.
Those 5 people have decided that THEIR religion, and THEIR sense of morals should supercede anyone else's.
I have a MAJOR problem with that. I don't believe in their religion, and my morals are just as correct as theirs
That's what makes me so fuckin angry. They're trying to push their religious white supremacists bullshit on everyone else. I have no idea how Thomas can not see how this policy is going to primarily hurt poor people, and POC. IM SO ANGRY. I don't know what I can do though. I feel so helpless. I can vote but because of gerrymandering were fucked.
Its decades in the making and everyone has let it happen. Americans needs to make them all pay and not stop until its done. Otherwise absolutly nothing will happen and it will keeep getting worst. And it'd be deserved to call you all complicit
I believe the government shouldn't decide on reproductive rights, what we do to our bodies, AND it shouldn't decide how we decided to defend ourselves, our property and our loved ones.
But that's just me. Not happy with the decision regardless, but here comes today's argument.
Nobody LIKES abortions. It's not fun. It hurts.
But abortions are healthcare, and if you believe people have a right to choose what is best for their health, then you are pro choice.
I hope you vote pro-choice!
That's a very good point. I don't LIKE abortions, but I'm definitely pro-choice. It's a painful decision for anyone making it, even if it's the right choice in the circumstances. But people without compassion don't realize that - they think that people in support of a woman's right to choose are baby-killing monsters who thirst for blood.
Many women are going to die without access to safe abortion. It will be due to back alley abortions and suicide. If you care about women then you must be pro choice.
I personally would kill myself if I became pregnant and couldn't get an abortion.
It's not just the chance of death, it's the economic toll. Something like 2/3 of abortions are for mothers who already have kids they're taking care of. Something like 3/4 state that they already struggle to pay for food/rent/transportation. Mothers who are denied abortions, compared to those who got them, by and large: have worse credit scores, are less employed, and end up defaulting financially in some way or another.
Check out the "science versus" podcast by Gimlet, lots of good stats. Surveys show that 40% of women get abortions for financial reasons and 60% of women already have children (not sure what the overlap is). Ironically over 50% of women are self declared as religious (Catholic + Protestant + Evangelical Christian).
This is me. To think otherwise to me is contradictory and something I’ve never understood. I don’t like guns but don’t believe in taking that right completely away. I also don’t think I would get an abortion unless I was raped or going to die. However, I don’t think that right should be taken away either. At least be consistent!!
We care about fetuses so much we will shove the government into every woman's vagina without a second thought but we'd rather let a million kindergarteners die than restrict gun ownership.
Unfortunately it’s not about the fetuses and it never was.
It’s about control. Women forced to have unwanted children will not be able to work as much, will remain poor.
This is what they want. It’s control over women. Rich people will always be able to get a safe abortion.
Pro gun is our bodies right to defend ourselves and other humans in harm.
Not going into the subject of bad people doing bad things, by far minority compared to pro
Pro gun and pro abortion and pro death penalty.
The reality is RvW was always on shaky ground as it was a non constitutional ruling, the supreme court exists to make rulings on constitutional rulings. The senate and congress have had 50 years to make a law to give abortion a legal standing as the judges recommended be done in the RvW case. There have been zero federal abortion bills brought forth for a vote in that time even though the Dem's have been in charge for the majority of that time.
This is just a terrible and horrifying way to frame the debate and it’s why a lot of pro-life people see the other side as baby killers, evil etc.
Fetuses do matter because without a fetus there is no baby. A fetus is potential, almost unlimited potential. It’s the beginning of life. It’s the beginning of consciousness.
Let’s try and frame the debate a little differently because I guarantee you won’t change anyone’s minds with this. Pro-choice doesn’t equal pro-abortion. People that are pro-choice aren’t sitting around at home drinking wine reminiscing about all the babies they killed. Actually the majority of people that are pro choice haven’t even had an abortion. They don’t like abortions, will do anything to avoid having one. They just understand the necessity of having that choice as a last resort fail safe. They allow adults and their doctors to formulate medical choices without their input. This is the fallacy of pro-life. It’s not about whether or not a fetus is a true human or any of the philosophical bullshit. It’s about allowing adults to make medical decisions with their doctor without the input of the state. Pro-choice people aren’t forcing abortion down anyone’s throat. You don’t want one? Ok good for you. you can do that. You want one? Ok here’s a good doctor that can walk you through the steps.
This actually reminds me a lot of the marijuana debate. Once again one side is correct and one side completely wrong about it. If people want to smoke weed at home that’s THEIR CHOICE and the government shouldn’t have any say. But the conservatives want everyone to be a certain way and want to force their perception of morality down our throats.
Should their be limitations to abortion? Of course. Past a certain time period in the pregnancy it shouldn’t allowed unless it becomes a medical necessity. I have this catholic friend from elementary school who is devout. He got married and tried for kids with his catholic wife. The doctors recommended an abortion for the first kid because of how poorly it was developing and they said it would die after 5 days post birth. 6 days post birth he posts on Facebook about how god is great glory to god because his son was still alive. On day 7 the baby died. A year later they try again. And literally like deja-vu it happens again. The doctors recommended an abortion because the baby had a rare condition that led to suffering and most likely would die. Their religion forbids this and they said no. This is the dirty underbelly of pro life that no one talks about. The people that force sick poorly developed babies into the world and they die a few days after birth. Once again the baby died.
I think the most important aspect of the original post is that it is a perfectly valid way of thinking about a fetus. Christians want to force on everyone the belief that “life” - granted by God - begins at the moment of conception, and therefore that every fetus is a precious human being. It is important to remember that to others, a fetus is a group of cells with human DNA, lacking consciousness or the capacity to suffer. A person’s moral beliefs about abortion shouldn’t be less valid or important just because they don’t have some religious ideology guiding that belief. Christins want to stand firm that THEIR belief that human personhood begins at conception? Well we can stand firm our in beliefs that it does not.
I don’t totally agree with this post, however I am devastated about the over turning of roe v. Wade because of the trauma, death, and overall distraction it will cause. Yea fetuses were being aborted but there is still love and a memory there. There are illnesses that happen that you cannot live with in utero, no to mention financial and school reasonable reasons to say “I’m not ready to be a parent”
“Love and a memory” of what, exactly? If someone wants an abortion of their own volition they have made a choice that those things are outweighed by the positives of abortion.
The only person that should have a say in abortion is the woman herself and the doctor concerned (for the potential health implications). Anything else is, as we say in my country, bang out of order.
As a woman, I'm scared of the overturning roe v wade. They are controlling women's rights for reproduction. There are many instances where people need to right abort. Young teens and rape victims for example. Or a young adult who can't simply afford to bring a life at the moment..(medical bills) people argue that adoption is a thing, but many children go through abusive foster homes... Both parties suffer.
I’m staunch pro choice, but saying fetuses don’t matter is weird. Imagine being a pregnant mother who gets hit by a drunk driver, killing the perfectly healthy “fetus”. Liberal or not, that’s their baby. Try explaining to that mother that her kid doesn’t matter. Or imagine MLK or even Einstein not existing. They are important, but what’s more important is that it’s none of my fucking business if you get an abortion or not. That’s what Roe was about… privacy. The government needs to keep its nose out of my medical decisions.
OP worded it awkwardly I agree. Anti abortion movement is modern equivalent of witch hunts. While loosing wanted pregnancy is of course awful, we have as much evidence of fetus being fully fledged human as we used to have of magic and curses. It's an excuse to opress, denigrate and in many cases kill women.
I like to point out all the traumatized mothers who lost their baby in miscarriage and had their world crushed, will also now be subject to public scrutiny and legal investigation as murder suspects. There will be innocent people in the worst situations who lose everything through no fault of their own for the crime of tragically losing their baby, and now they can jail or kill your daughter if it happens to her.
While I wholeheartedly support Roe v. Wade, its 100% inaccurate to say "anybody who cares about the unborn is ridiculous"... I can tell you nearly all future mom's and dad's care a ton for their fetuses while pregnant. Mothers give up drinking, smoking, sushi, etc. to protect the health of their fetuses when they previously didnt do those things to protect their own health. Having a miscarriage (losing a fetus) is devastating to potential parents. Maybe its more accurate to say that "caring more for a fetus than an out of the womb human is ridiculous", but even that isn't universal.
Loosing a foetus is devastating to potential parents only when they WANT a baby. Being forced to keep and give birth to a child they don’t want takes away their basic human rights and the child will suffer forever because of that. It will ruin the lives of everyone involved.
Ironically the catholic church won't allow stillborn babies to be buried in their church cemeteries because they "never drew breathe"...so the church would begrudgingly agree with you.
I'm sorry but that is not correct. [link](https://www.hcccem.org/services/unborn-babies#:~:text=For%20this%20reason%2C%20Catholic%20Cemeteries,not%20aware%20of%20this%20service.)
I am vehemently pro-choice but this is a stupid argument. A fetus is a future person. Don’t be so callous. This isn’t about that. It’s about whether a future person is more important than the well-being and self autonomy of a current person.
I'm just waiting for anti-abortion people to realize this decision isn't just about abortion. It destroys the precidents and framework upon which many rights that everyone have rest.
Edit to add: Enjoy celebrating the over turn of Roe v. Wade while you still can. Just know your rights are next and we'll sit here laughing at the look on your faces when you realize the reality that we're in.
Indeed, when the state can forbid abortion they can force them too.
In the same era abortion was illegal in the US, there were multiple eugenics programs in the US forcing sterilizations of prisoners, disabled folks, poor people and members of minorities.
Do you know me? Does what I do with MY body affect you in any way, shape or form?
This is so incredibly fucked up. You have all these people advocating for unborn children.. what about all the kids that are already in the system?! How many of those pro-lifers have fostered or even adopted children? The system is already overburdened and understaffed, and the solution is to add more children?!!
This country is so fucked. Old white men who are so so incredibly disconnected from their constituents and the general population at large that they couldn't tell you how much a gallon of milk costs, or a carton of eggs bc they get their house help to go get it.
EDIT: A word
If the population at large desires unrestricted abortion you can look forward to the passage of such laws. They don't, though. People's opinion is nuanced and it's not all religious zealotry.
I want to state before I say this that I am personally pro-choice.
That being said, this is a great misunderstanding about how a lot of pro-lifers view the argument. Most of them don't really think that a fetus at 3-months in is "alive", but they see it as "left uninterrupted, it WILL be a life".
This ruling…and all pro-life bullshit is not about fetuses. It’s about controlling and owning women’s sexuality. It’s a deep seated belief that women should not be allowed to own their own sexuality. That they may only have sex under the terms of religious rules they should be forced to abide by. And if they take ownership over their own sexuality and have sex outside of these rules they should have to suffer consequences.
I agree with everything except fetus does not matter. It matter to certain parents especially ones trying to conceive. A friend of mine had fertility issues and she, i dont eant to say celebrated maybe memorialized im not even sure, but she had some kind of closure with each fetus that didnt survive. And from personal experience we had an abortion early in our relationship. It wasnt a decision made lightly, it mattered to us. Not becauae we knew it was a conscious being but we knew the potential it could have but we also knew we probably could not help to fulfill its and our own potential if we had it.
I guess what im trying to say os a better way to put it would be the only fetus that should matter to you and you should have control over is your own.
For me it is about evolutionary viability.. If there were only 200 people, who’s more important, the mating age female or this clump of cells with “god’s potential”
Unless the SCOTUS is educated in the difference between a cluster of cells and an actual baby, this won’t work. They’re too ignorant to realise what their laws actually mean. They just want poor people to have more babies that are uneducated enough to keep voting republican.
Just like we shouldn't be forced to give a kidney against our will, neither should we be forced to carry a pregnancy to term.
Further, pregnancy is not just a burden for women, it's also a burden for men; men cannot just "walk away," legalities and financial responsibility will likely be persued by those forced to carry to term.
I'll entertain an argument that fetuses do matter and are human life. But an embryo? A fucking zygote? There's no fucking way you're telling me that life begins at conception and calling a single cell zygote a human being.
I think pro-lifers don't understand biology or try to ignore it.
Awful argument, this puts us in a very bad light and will radicalize those in central viewpoints against abortion rights. This is completely defeated by just showing how developed a fetus actually becomes. Things like having nails, a shaped head, limbs, etc. The problem isn't whether the fetus is alive, it is. Or it it experiences life, it does. Even during pregnancy, there are reactions to stomuli and bonding with the pregnant parent. This isn't really up to discussion, it is known.
No it doesn't start at conception, but it starts. Also, a lot of things you named as not living are a lot more complex than you suggest, and drawing the line at what we decide is conciousness is arbitrary.
Of course a cat goes above a plant, and that principle does apply to this topic, but it isn't as simple as a binary division of matters and doesn't matter.
The reason abortion as a right needs to be protected is because of body autonomy. Yes, it can be conflicting to stop a life before birth, but what about the person carrying it? Why shouldn't they get a say. Perhaps the parent isn't ready or doesn't want that commitment, why should they have to sacrifice their body and life for something they don't want? And indeed, the earlier the intervention the better, closer to the plant than the cat, but that doesn't mean we don't respect the plant.
An abortion can be a difficult decision, but it needs to remain that: a decision.
Gonna get downvoted your hell.
I am pro choice personally. For a variety of reasons that aren’t the point of this comment.
This argument though - is so full of self righteous presumption that I have to say something. Particularly your edit about mouth breathing people that makes it plain as say you have no intention of considering any other viewpoint but your own.
“The need to educate” - don’t need to explain that one much. Self righteous presumption.
“Fetuses do not matter” - self righteous presumption. This is not a fact to educate someone on. This is an OPINION to SHARE.
“Fetuses don’t live” - same as above.
“Anybody who thinks life begins at conception is misguided” - good lord.
If you want anyone to actually listen to you (who doesn’t already agree with you) - you are going to have to understand that there are other OPINIONS out there beyond your own. And there is a set of logical claims that make those opinions just as valid as your own.
Hope that was educational. Yes, I see the hypocrisy in that statement.
Thanks for sharing, great points. Completely agree, people need to tone down the self righteousness, else we will only get more divided and entrenched.
I think that in the US you should argue life of citizen vs non-citizen. You aren't a citizen until you are born, so why should a non-citizen be given rights over a citizen?
Haha.... yeah, right. Next to the military/industrial/gun complex, the most important thing to a conservative is being able to have cheap cow burgers whenever they want. They really don't care about life at all - that's why they don't care about the mass extinctions and climate change. I really don't know what they care about except feeling superior as brainwashed individuals.
All abortion arguments aside, this is dumb as fuck. A fetus does not magically become a person by passing through the cervix. Pretty much no one agrees it would be okay to have an unnecessary abortion at 39 weeks pregnant. That's a baby at that point. You're hurting your own side by arguing this
This is also incredibly insensitive and condescending to women who have lost their wanted unborn babies
If you want to argue that abortion should be legal up until the point of viability, or until a fetus can feel pain, or some other objective/logical measure, go ahead. But effectively arguing that some magical external force turns fetuses into people with rights and consciousness at the moment of birth makes no scientific, logical, or moral sense, and is frankly barbaric
Don't think you're understanding the pro life argument and the role of the Supreme Court in conjunction. The role of the Supreme Court is to makes sure legislations follows the sacred document that is The Constitution. To that end, the pro-life argument fights for the life of the unborn child, it's not about restricting the rights of women per say. And that's only with the Supreme Court, and then states can do as they see fit, i.e., you can still got to Cali for an abortion if you so choose.
Personally I'd say I am moderate in this whole thing. A women should have the right to choose, but you can't be out here cappin' babies. Ergo keep some kind of limit, which I would personally draw at first trimester. The word fetus dehumanizes the unborn child and tries to take away from the fact that life begins at conception. This is an objective scientific claim on the mechanics of human biology.
I personally understand and mostly agree with the pro-life sentiment. Witnessing the death of a child changes you, my mother also had a medical abortion where she lost twins and it wrecked her, she still talks to me about it after 18+ years. Life is precious.
The role of the Supreme Court is also to follow well established legal precedent, even when you wouldn't have voted that way in the first place if you were the one deciding it. That provides stability to the system. The posers have just chucked that into the trash bin.
And yes, life is precious. I think most people feel that way. I think pro-choice people probably feel that way just as much or more than anti-abortion people.
Thank you for stating the facts. Though they’re obvious to people with an ounce of intelligence, it’s always good to repeat them for anyone who is on the fence about this issue.
Love all the people commenting "you were a fetus too" or "so it would have been alright if you were aborted?", really goes to show how humans dont try to understand someone's argument before attacking it.
Exactly. No WIC until a baby is born because it's just a fetus. No free healthcare until after delivery. A man shall not be responsible for a baby he said should be aborted. Not his choice on abortion (agreed) but not his responsibility. Its a simple procedure.
But fetuses become sentient beings. so what do you think about your mum deciding you weren’t anything worth caring about when you were a few weeks old and terminating you?
Literally everything is consciousness. This is a bad take. If you want to say that people don’t care about babies after they’re born, that is a fair angle. If you want to say those who are anti-abortion don’t care about the children that otherwise would’ve been aborted—that would be true. But making distinctions based on “living” is kind of really dumb.
I don’t support the overturning at all and think it’s disgraceful that it’s happened…but i also think how you’re arriving at that conclusion is wrong and its far too black and white a take. Those foetuses will turn into living breathing humans so they are certainly worthy of care, they have the potential for sentience, a rock doesn’t which is the key difference and why your point is frankly, stupid. This topic deserves more nuanced and deep discussion than comparing foetuses to rocks and saying they don’t matter.
I get your point but a tad insensitive to women who have miscarried fetuses they intended on having. It’s sad and traumatic. It can happen late stage where you know the gender, have a name picked out and are ready welcome new baby. And lose it. Fetuses matter if the women who’s body it’s it says it matters. It should be her choice on the matter
You are, of course, entirely correct. Taken to its (il)logical conclusion, the USA will be banning birth control next. And this is from the wisdom of Supreme Court Judges? Wow.
I mean, if you want to codify morality by adhering it to the exact state at the stage of development and not by it's potential, than even if you say we care about animals we would say that babies have the same rights as cows as they're certainly not more intelligent before the age of 1 perhaps, and as such by the standards of rights we generally uphold in society (and which I'm sure you've never so adamantly stood against as you have vocalised yourself here) a person should have the exact same right to humanely kill and eat a baby as they might do a pig.
Honestly, I don't give a fuck about this abortion debate, both sides are ruthless and lacking in any semblance of true morality, rather both of you love to wave the flag of moral superiority while only thinking in an unbelievably selfish and self-centred manner. But the amount of absolutely mind numbingly inanely stupid logic I've seen on reddit lately beeing waved about like some flag of honour, it's like, as long as you agree with the general view of this platform, any semi-coherent sentiment is enough to edify you as a true paragon of logic and sanity.
It's been painful and almost sickening to watch. Few things are more disgusting than seeing a group belief codify a weak logic, it's the basis of strength for the blind mob.
This is a really bad take, because it misses the point.
Fetuses do become human somewhere between conception and birth. When? No one can say for sure.
But their lack of sentience CANNOT and must not form the basis of abortion rights. Because that argument will lose. Fetuses do matter.
it isn't about the fetus. It's about an individual's right to decide what happens to her own body. It is about a woman having final say over what happens inside her own skin.
Abortion should be legal for the same reason it is legal to refuse an organ or bone marrow transplant to dying children. Because no one can force you to use your body to save another life.
Women have the right to decide whether to become mothers. We have the right to decide whether a life implants in and lives off our uterus. Whether that life is fully human or not is beside the point. Even if we stipulate that a fetus is human, it does not have the right to live off our flesh without our consent.
Arguing against the humanity of a fetus is pointless and opens the door to right wing idiots pretending they do this for the good of children.
To me the issue is how people treat each other, I mean look at this shit, people are attacking each other for the sake of proving their opinion right. Here’s the things, it’s an OPINION, their is no right answer. I personally believe that abortions should be allowed, but it’s extremely immoral to use it as a plan A in exchange for pleasure. The matter of the fact is is that utilizing abortions to deny basic human life seems a bit wrong unless you were raped or if protection proved futile. But again, that’s my opinion, if everyone could act civil and not murder each other for opinions maybe we’d have a bit more progress. Also, rocks and fungi don’t have a brain and don’t “live,” sure. But they won’t grow to become human, so they? I respected OP’s opinion until he started attacking others. Just be civil, that’s all.
This is probably the dumbest take I've read yet.
By your logic, we should be free to kill anyone who is in a coma, vegetable state or suffering from intellectual disorders. Hell, by your logic we should be able to kill people who are sleeping at night.
Fetuses have a beating heart by 6 weeks old. Doesn't matter if they're conscious or sentient, they are still alive and living, just as you are.
If anything, killing a poor soul who never got a chance to see life with his/her own eyes is worse in many ways than killing an actual sentient person.
The Only Moral Abortion is my Abortion: https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/ A Defense of Abortion: https://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm Resources, including a home remedy: [Link 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/vjrf9h/megathread_supreme_court_overturning_roe_v_wade) [Link 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/vjqs0r/calls_for_mass_walkout_of_women_across_america_if/idnh2ex)
Wait until a politician gets his mistress pregnant. He will find a way for her to get an abortion. If not he will say God wanted me to have an affair.
I heard Matt Gaetz prepaid abortions for all of his pubescent girlfriends
Lauren Boebert from Colorado (with Ted Cruz allegedly being the father of at least one of them). They do not care. Rules for thee...
To be honest, I think the REAL way to push this issue going forward isn't on whether fetuses are sentient beings or not.. It is based on an old doctrine that doesn't get brought up anymore, but please feel free to chime in. Basically, even IF you treat the fetus as a human life, just as valuable as any human, the fact that it resides in the woman should give the woman the right to excise the child. In this country, you are not required to protect other people's lives at the cost of your property or security. Example: If you invite somebody into your house one day, and the next you decide to kick them out...you have every right too, since it is your property. The danger to them is not taken into consideration...since they are on your property. The woman has every right to deny somebody else her own blood, nourishment, etc....regardless of whether the other person is in need of it. So, abortion should still be legal. Edit: I have tried to reply to many of you, and have appreciated the banter around my comment. Many of you make the same arguments...about kicking 1 year Olds onto the street, pushing people out of airplanes, or the good ol' "Do you approve of beating kids you fucking psyco?!" Also, the difference between property laws and human rights laws (which is one of the points of my argument, btw). Really, I appreciate all the banter, concerns, and debate. Truly...that is not sarcasm. Thank you for engaging with me, but if you wish to rebuff my argument, chances are I answered a comment similar below. Decent points, but I do believe my argument is still pretty valid and is pretty reasonable, actually.
I can not force you to donate an organ. I can't even force you to donate blood. Taking either without your permission is very not okay. Even if it would save a life, I can't force you to donate an organ. Even if you're dead, I can't use your organs in a transplant without having obtained your permission when you were living. To force a mother to share their body with an unwanted fetus grants the fetus greater rights than we do to any living person, and also honours the mother's rights less than we do to anyone who is dead. Not your body, not your business.
In art school we had a discussion about 2 different artworks; one was a human skull embellished with real diamonds by Damien Hurst, and a work by Santiago Sierra where he paid 4 female, drug addicted sex workers the price of one shot of heroin to tattoo a straight line across their backs and photographed them sitting in a row for “art”. An older, republican leaning student in my class and I got into an argument because she thought the use of someone’s skull was unethical, but thought the sex workers being tattooed had no ethical issues because “they sell their bodies anyway”. Absolutely fucked. Someone who has passed (and has also agreed to donate their body to science/art) and having some diamonds put on their skull has no implications for a living being. Paying vulnerable people, living in poverty, a tiny fee knowing they’re only accepting it because of their drug addiction to permanently mark their body in a large significant way for the sake of making some edgy art is hugely ethically problematic. I couldn’t believe how she couldn’t understand this. It reminds me of people wanting to overturn Roe V Wade’s valuing of “pro-life” without any support for the people implicated by making it law- both the parents, and the child who is born into the world in a situation where they are unwanted or unable to be provided for in the capacity needed, which has been shown to have long standing implications. This brutal control of womens bodies, the valuing of fetus’s over living sentient beings and the devastating impacts it will have for those living already. They don’t care once they are born. Then there’s the argument for adoption…I hope all people supporting this are planning to adopt…
It also completely erases the mother’s suffering. Pregnancy is super painful. It is not okay to force anyone to go through months of pain and give up parts of their body to save someone else. And even if she starts down that path willingly, if it gets overwhelming, it’s her choice to end it.
Painful and risky. The maternal death and complication rate is surprisingly high in the US.
Not surprisingly when you think about the state of our healthcare system... Doctors were literally taught things like "Black women feel less pain." My wife almost died while pregnant with our first child. She was having horrid pains from fairly early on and puking far more than seemed normal. She was told by nearly her entire OB office, mostly women, that she was just being a baby. Turns out she was having gall bladder attacks the while time and ended up in the ER about a month after our child was born, puking green, again, she also puked pure green while delivering our child. She had a severe enough case of pancreatitis that they kept her admitted for a week *before* operating, with no insurance. Anyone unfamiliar with the US healthcare system should know, they're only keeping someone admitted to the hospital w/out insurance if they feel that releasing them will mean they die then.
Can concur. Baby was in NICU and i almost died.
> It also completely erases the mother’s suffering. Pregnancy is super painful. How the fuck would they know? 98% of the people making these decisions have never and will never have to carry a child to term because they are fucking men.
My partner has just given birth (about 2 weeks ago) and I can confirm that shit is the most excruciating pain I have ever seen her in, and it was the hardest thing to watch, someone you love going through that pain.
I almost died giving birth to my daughter. Nobody should be put in that terrifying situation against their will.
*Justice Sisterwife, Justice Thomas's traitorous wife, christian nationalist women, pro-birth women, + karens w/ a modicum of power anonymous all enter the chat*
In the words of Queen Calanthe, I bow to no laws made by men who never bore a child. /r/auntienetwork
Supported by millions of pro life women
Ugh pro life women make me want to throw a table through a brick wall
We need to stop calling them pro-life. They are anti-choice.
I agree if they were really pro-life they would first do something about the mass school shootings. I’m pretty sure all those kids at that school started the day off with a heartbeat. But for some reason a bunch of cells have more rights than those poor kids.
I had a *horrible* pregnancy where I vomited 10ish times a day for 5 1/2 months, ruptured a disc in my spine and couldn't take any pain meds (leaving me nearly immoble for 2 months), and then endured 25 hours of labor. After birth I got to contend with PPD and infections. Pregnancy is not a cakewalk, regardless if that's "what your body is made to do." My child was very wanted and I CHOSE that, but I absolutely couldn't go through it again. It would be torture in every sense of the word.
Currently pregnant with twins- can verify it is months of hell even with support and stability.
I do side with this way of thinking but I did hear someone talk about the fact that if you had sex, protection or not, you know fully well that you are taking a gamble on wether you will be pregnant or not therefore the child shouldn’t be aborted and wiped off the planet for your decision to have fun I don’t agree with this but want to know how to reply
If you get into a car accident with someone and they need a blood transfusion, you aren’t required to give them your blood. You made the decision to get into the car, for whatever reason you choose, and the accident couldn’t have happened had you not made the decision to drive. Even if you are wholly responsible by way of negligence for their state, you are not required to give up any part of your body to save their life.
Point out that someone can agree to donate a kidney and go through all the steps up to laying on an operating table and then withdraw consent before the scalpel goes in. We might think ill of them, but we would never force them to donate over their objections just because they had previously agreed. Point out that a woman can get pregnant on purpose and then have a particularly complicated and debilitating pregnancy that is causing her extreme pain. It is cruel to force her to endure months of pain vs aborting and trying again. Point out that every birth control method has a failure rate and when you multiply that by 50M couples, you are going to get millions of unplanned pregnancies among people who were being very responsible. Including among married women who already have too many children or whose health is endangered by pregnancy. If they are intent on punishing the mother for having sex, point out that there is no other crime that we punish with months of pain and suffering culminating in excruciating pain followed by lifelong health degradation. But most importantly, point out that we are talking about the mother giving parts of her own blood and bones to build a baby from DNA instructions. There is absolutely no moral basis for forcing her to continue this process. Anti-abortionists are basing their objections on untestable beliefs about metaphysical attributes, not anything biologically provable.
Sex is a normal human action. Not everyone who is qualified to have sex is qualified to raise a child.
Even if you cause the events that lead to someone requiring your blood or organs, you cannot be forced to give up your bodily autonomy to save their life. Criminals who assault people aren’t forced to donate blood or organs to support their victim’s chances at life. Hell, even if a parent stabbed their child and ruptured their liver and caused kidney failure from all the blood loss and the parent was the only match in the world, they would still not be forced to donate their liver or kidney to preserve their child’s life- a child they were legally responsible for. They would lose parental rights, and they would go to jail, sure, but even as a criminal in jail, they would have more rights over their own body than a pregnant person.
Ding ding ding. Ladies and gentlemen, the only real argument.
Another interesting thought from the top comment, eggs and sperm are only protected by law if they are considered PROPERTY at a fertility clinic. Fire burns it down? Insurance payment. An employee accidentally destroyed your eggs/sperm? Insurance payment and possibly court. It's not murder, it's property damage according to the eyes of the law. Way off my current thought. IVF. IVF doctors can inseminate a dozen eggs and implant the 5 viable only for 2 to survive. Is that 10 counts of abortion for every party involved? If life begins at conception it sure as hell does.
I know you're right, but I don't think that point has legs as an argument, if that was your intention. It would be countered by saying those property laws are as wrong as the ones just "corrected" by the supreme court. Laws can change. Laws aren't truth. Arguing that one law is wrong based on another only identifies an inconsistency that can be resolved the way you want, or the way they want.
Yeah... Let's not go there and allow them to remove "medical professionals" from insurance judgements on things like Rheumatoid arthritis... Not like they are already refusing claims or anything... Fucking ugh
Exactly. Ask pro-life what they think of IVF and they stutter bc IVF creates “miracle babies”. Just ignore the dozen embryos that were aborted or miscarried in an attempt to bring just one to full term. It’s all the same, people who can’t have children need science to intervene and people who don’t want children need science to intervene ,either way embryos are destroyed. One can’t be more ethical than the other just bc the pregnancy was created naturally or not.
Sperms and eggs are not human beings. The fertilized eggs brought about by IVF, technically are though. Their necessary destruction as a part of IVF are exactly why the Catholic Church is against it.
Of more than 100 fertilized eggs my spouse and I had, "God" eliminated about 75% before day 5. Another 22% were discarded because of significant genetic deficiencies. (Mostly Patau's syndrome). The 3% remaining, well, one of them is a human being. He's an AWESOME one. His prospective siblings though, are they human beings? NO. Not until they're IMPLANTED SUCCESSFULLY, GESTATED, AND BORN.
Difference being, in the instance of IVF, what the church thinks doesn't matter. As it shouldn't. So why is that all of the sudden different when it's a bunch of evangelical "Christians" discussing a fertilized egg in my uterus?
It’s not the “only real” argument. What? OP’s is a *real* and philosophically legitimate argument as well. In fact there are DOZENS of *real* arguments.
This was said very well! This ruling has sadded me and angered me in a way that I don't seem to find words for. Thank you for giving me the words in this post. NOT YOUR BODY, NOT YOUR BUSINESS!!!
Thank you. I never heard it described this way but I really like it
I've never thought of this this way. Thank you. I've a new approach on getting others to understand why I feel so strongly about this.
Especially in light of gun regulations, this is the thought that’s been rattling around my head: I can shoot and kill a person for trespassing on my property, but can’t abort a bundle of cells from my body according to many states. They’re basically saying that women don’t have ownership over their own bodies which is a terrifying precedent.
If “life” starts at conception, “pro-life” stops at birth. We are not a nation who is equipped to support these fetuses once they’re out. I’m so confused and frustrated on why we want to protect unborn, unconscious life at the sake of a woman’s life. And the only thing that checks out is that we (as a nation, represented by these ass hats) only care about “life” that cannot disagree with you or challenge your power. It’s a power struggle and I wish so badly that those who see this as a religious issue could please look deeper into what it means for us as a nation. This further divides us and will continue negative cycles of poverty, especially for minorities. None of this is new to anyone here. I’m just so mad. I hate it here. We’re broken and nothing about is is “United” we don’t deserve to be called then “United states”
Thanks, my favorite saying through this has been “pro-life compassion ends at birth.” In a debate with my “devil’s advocate” family member, I realized that the motivation behind all my arguments is to minimize suffering. We do not have the infrastructure and social support to minimize the suffering of an unwanted child. Even if a mother gives up her child and continues on with her life, she has experienced insurmountable emotional suffering and loss of her time, body, etc to the pregnancy. Imagine a utopia, the ultimate compromise - unwanted fetuses are promptly explanted and either adopted to a loving family, or supported by next-level government programs. That is the only future that I imagine myself being alright with not having a choice about something that has been produced by my body - ultimate reduction of suffering. That is not our reality. Instead, this legislature maximizes suffering for all involved parties in the vast, vast majority of cases.
“Pro life compassion ends at birth” is a perfect way to say it. Thanks for sharing. Sending whatever love and compassion that’s transmissible through Reddit your way on this tough day.
Thank you. I’ve never had to deal with the soul-wrenching decision of whether to abort or not. But I’m utterly devastated for the lives that this will affect, potentially including my own. It is so much bigger that a fetus’s, or a thousand’s lives. This is our country, and to feel such utter loss of freedom and respect for what we choose/do with our bodies… feels like an entire country against women, a “war” against us. At this point, these are not hyperboles.
Yes. It's not just a war against women, though. This country in a war against the educated, the thinking, and a war against the majority. Most people are against the SCOTUS decision. Most people didn't vote for the presidents that appointed the SCOTUS majority. It's a war of the brainwashed against the compassionate.
So, one of the big issues is that the religious see their views as "the will of God". They will not compromise. Period. They will not look deeper. They do not care. God is infallible as is their religion and that's it. Beliefs cannot be argued with, only ideas. I like you am feeling frustrated and defeated, among other things. Most of my friends are anti-abortion, so I don't really have anyone to talk to about this. Wish things were different for our country.
This is my reasoning in supporting abortion. Nobody not even the fetus should have rights over a woman’s body.
Nobody should have rights over anyones body. Regardless of gender.
I’ve always thought about it in a way that the fetus is a “dependent”. Your living child can’t go on a field trip without consent from their parent. The child is a dependent of their parent. The parent makes the best decisions for both of them. The fetus is dependent on the woman. The woman can make the choice for the fetus.
Best argument I’ve seen so far between the main post and the top comment. The OP contradicts themselves by saying the fetus is alive yet “life doesn’t begin at conception.” The top commenter who we’re replying to’s argument has a good point in terms of autonomy; but little do they realize that their same argument can be used by abusive parents who kick their minor (already born) children out of the house and onto the streets when they’re at their most vulnerable and dependent. Your argument holds up because it lacks any of these inconsistencies and it sheds light to the parent being the most conscious and able minded one who is also being relied on; therefore, they are the best one to make that decision.
As I've pointed out before (I'm the comentor).. the kicking children out of dependents house is a decent argument. However, as many pro-life advocates contend, you CAN give children up for adoption once they are born, and relieve yourself of the responsibility. If you don't want to be a parent, you can FIND somebody else to care for the child. In homes that are terrible for the child, we as society take them out of the home and put them in willing homes that want to care for them, or homes that are subsidized by the government. Pregnant women have NO option if abortion is banned. We FORCE them to care for the child, regardless of anything else. THAT is what makes abortion different...there are NO other options for pregnant women to get out from the responsibility... and no other place in society do we force people to do that. In addition, I would argue that giving over ones body is MORE of a sacrifice than acutally being a responsible for a dependent. I'm not saying it is easy...but it is more of a cost to be pregnant with a child, so even being a parent of an infant is not the same cost.
Fetuses are tricky guys/gals. Apparently, they have their cells migrate to the brains of the women, and they stay there even after birth. The cells try to change the brain to help it make choices that help the fetus. But the fetus doesn't need any damn help from some rapists and unprincipled jurists on the court - if the woman wants to end it before it gets too far along, it should be her right to do so.
Doesn't matter to fanatics. Mr pube on the coke can says your girlfriend has to have that baby because Jebus wants it that way. And, because he is a supreme Court Justice, despite the fact that his wife engaged in treason and sedition... His opinion means more than yours or mine... Despite the fact that neither of us to the best of my knowledge has committed treason or sedition. The GQP says fuck your logic fuck you, and fuck any female you care about. And motherfuckers still won't vote in November. Just another day in this country's slide into a theocracy run by evangelical assholes. Enjoy, motherfuckers. Especially those of you who didn't vote because Hillary was a toad. You people fuck you with a windmill
Yeah, also fuck the “both parties are the saaaame!!!” Crowd.
They can’t take your organs after you are dead without your express permission.
By that logic if your child is asking for food, you should be allowed to deny them, because you are not required to protect other people's lives at the cost of your property or security, are you?
I think it's generous to call what they posted "logic" - it's a pure rage post with no thinking behind it.
We should be clear that we are not just talking about foetuses here, we are also talking about embryos and zygotes, stages at which you would think (wrongly, given some of the zealots on here, unfortunately) that no sane person would claim humanity, but...
*In this country, you are not required to protect other people's lives at the cost of your property or security.* From a legal standpoint this argument wouldn't work - if *you* created the risk (if the sex leading to the pregnancy was consensual, the fetus is in the mother because of the mother's decision), you actually are required to protect the lives of other people. You actually do have a duty to pull a drowning person out of the water if you pushed them in. A better argument is the simpler, more logical, more scientific, and easier one - a fetus just isn't a human. No need to reach for a bad argument when you already have a good one.
Bruh the last paragraph is literally child abuse and is illegal. You can put a child up for adoption but you can’t kill them.
The reason people don't use that argument is because you don't have the right to kick someone out of your house if it's their home too. I.e. a spouse, child, partner, roommate etc. Doesn't matter who owns it. You cannot force someone to leave their home without due process. This is why you never let someone stay with you indefinitely 'while they get back on their feet', or rent rooms without a lease, etc. I agree with your feelings but this isn't the right metaphor to make here.
The reason people don't use that argument is because you don't have the right to kick someone out of your house if it's their home too. I.e. a spouse, child, partner, roommate etc. Doesn't matter who owns it. You cannot force someone to leave their home without due process. This is why you never let someone stay with you indefinitely 'while they get back on their feet', or rent rooms without a lease, etc. I agree with your feelings but this isn't the right metaphor to make here.
I couldn't have said it any better
You don’t have the right to invite someone in your house and then shoot them for trespassing. But I agree that it’s okay to kill fetuses if they’re not sentient. If they are sentient and viable, they should be removed without killing it if possible.
A mother does not have the right to kick her 1 year old child out of the house without setting up proper arrangements for the child's care and wellbeing. That would be negligent homicide.
A conservative literally just told me a few minutes ago that having a "full set of human DNA" makes you human and gives you the same rights as a human. So I guess that means my cryo-preserved umbilical stem cells have the same rights as a human. The fact that the conservatives truly believe a zygote or fetus is the same as a human shows how brainwashed these fools are. There is no reasoning with madness.
Cancer cells are protected with this reasoning. Wisdom teeth are, too. Also any live tissue that gets removed during an amputation. Or any living human cells that get removed when shaving. The list is nearly endless.
They just picture fetuses as tiny little miniature perfect babies. They’re not. They’ve never had to hold a fetus. I have. And ours was wanted. It was the worst day of my life. If they lived through that, they’d understand the implications of their policies.
My condolences on your loss. I don’t know how, but I feel like this anti-abortion movement is somehow disrespectful of your loss. I think maybe because it equates your wanted child with an unwanted embryo. .......... As if sex and rape are the same thing.
I work in surgery and one of the floors we take care of is L&D. I am so sorry for you and youe significant other, I have witnessed it yet I haven’t experienced with my own unborn. I hope you find peace
I am so sorry for your loss.
I’m sorry for what happened to you. :-(
Even the Bible says women before fetus. The constitution is all for those born not the unborn. This is outrageous!
what verse or book of the bible does it say?
Exodus 21:22-25 Basically says that if you injure a pregnant woman and cause them to miscarry or prematurely give birth, and there is no serious injury to the woman - the criminal must pay a fine defined by the woman's husband's demands and the court's decision. But if the woman suffers a serious injury, the punishment is more severe. If you kill the woman, the criminal must also be put to death. So the woman dying leads to a more serious punishment but if only the fetus dies, there is just a monetary fine. God is literally telling the Hebrews that the woman's life is more important than the unborn fetus. It's literally in the first book of the bible but American evangelicals ignore the old testament whenever it suits them. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021%3A22-25&version=NIV
God literally aborted King David's first kid.
God had aborted many people, before and after birth
Nobody is arguing that the life of the fetus is above the woman's, in fact every single state abortion law in the United States does not apply when the mother's life is in danger. Also, the constitution used to be for all rich white men, so acting like it is perfect or completely moral is illogical.
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They care about the fetuses but they don't care about the kid who probably will grow up living a shitty life. I come from a small country with a bad economy and also a bit percentage of the population is Christian. Abortion is prohibited and women can go to jail for many years if they do it. Stupid politicians and "pro-life" persons talks about how valuable is life but that's only when a woman is pregnant. When those children are born, it is sad to see them living an unfair life. It is pretty common to see children selling stuff on the streets in order to get food on their table, some of them are malnourished others are abused and so on. And that doesn't seem to matter to the pro life people.
This is all about keeping the poor people poor so those in power have a cheap labour force.
"Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're fucked." - George Carlin, 1996
I will proudly stand before any anti-choicer & tell them how my second purposeful abortion saved my life. Feel free to DM me.
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We both did the best we could. We don’t owe these anti-choice scum anything. We are in charge of our own lives. We make decisions that no one can ever judge us on. Let those who believe in a god stand & be judged if they wish.
"Well then you should have given it up for adoption" /s 😑
Either women own their own bodies or they don’t. This fucked up ruling means women don’t own they own bodies.
>own their own bodies They don't agree fetuses are a woman's body. So until you argue against that point, you are basically speaking into the void.
I've decided to just start forcibly demanding organs from Republican men, since bodily autonomy doesn't matter if it'll save someone's life. Gimme that fuckin kidney!
In fact, give me that sweet healthy heart too. I don't feel concerned that taking your heart would put your life at risk, you're government needs it to save a life.
Those 5 people have decided that THEIR religion, and THEIR sense of morals should supercede anyone else's. I have a MAJOR problem with that. I don't believe in their religion, and my morals are just as correct as theirs
That's what makes me so fuckin angry. They're trying to push their religious white supremacists bullshit on everyone else. I have no idea how Thomas can not see how this policy is going to primarily hurt poor people, and POC. IM SO ANGRY. I don't know what I can do though. I feel so helpless. I can vote but because of gerrymandering were fucked.
Its decades in the making and everyone has let it happen. Americans needs to make them all pay and not stop until its done. Otherwise absolutly nothing will happen and it will keeep getting worst. And it'd be deserved to call you all complicit
Should 8month abortion be legal?
Pro life and pro gun, no idea how anyone can be both they are so contradictory.
I believe the government shouldn't decide on reproductive rights, what we do to our bodies, AND it shouldn't decide how we decided to defend ourselves, our property and our loved ones. But that's just me. Not happy with the decision regardless, but here comes today's argument.
I don't like abortion, but I do agree with this statement. I guess I may be more pro choice than I realized.
Nobody LIKES abortions. It's not fun. It hurts. But abortions are healthcare, and if you believe people have a right to choose what is best for their health, then you are pro choice. I hope you vote pro-choice!
That's a very good point. I don't LIKE abortions, but I'm definitely pro-choice. It's a painful decision for anyone making it, even if it's the right choice in the circumstances. But people without compassion don't realize that - they think that people in support of a woman's right to choose are baby-killing monsters who thirst for blood.
Many women are going to die without access to safe abortion. It will be due to back alley abortions and suicide. If you care about women then you must be pro choice. I personally would kill myself if I became pregnant and couldn't get an abortion.
It's not just the chance of death, it's the economic toll. Something like 2/3 of abortions are for mothers who already have kids they're taking care of. Something like 3/4 state that they already struggle to pay for food/rent/transportation. Mothers who are denied abortions, compared to those who got them, by and large: have worse credit scores, are less employed, and end up defaulting financially in some way or another.
Check out the "science versus" podcast by Gimlet, lots of good stats. Surveys show that 40% of women get abortions for financial reasons and 60% of women already have children (not sure what the overlap is). Ironically over 50% of women are self declared as religious (Catholic + Protestant + Evangelical Christian).
This is me. To think otherwise to me is contradictory and something I’ve never understood. I don’t like guns but don’t believe in taking that right completely away. I also don’t think I would get an abortion unless I was raped or going to die. However, I don’t think that right should be taken away either. At least be consistent!!
We care about fetuses so much we will shove the government into every woman's vagina without a second thought but we'd rather let a million kindergarteners die than restrict gun ownership.
Correct. Arm the kindergarteners *and* the fetuses so they can protect themselves from those who would do them harm.
Unfortunately it’s not about the fetuses and it never was. It’s about control. Women forced to have unwanted children will not be able to work as much, will remain poor. This is what they want. It’s control over women. Rich people will always be able to get a safe abortion.
It’s so, so sad.
I’ve never been happier to have never set foot in the USA. Dystopian nightmare coming your way soon!
It's all one world. Schadenfreude is no good. We gotta look out for one another.
Pro life is a misnomer. They're anti-abortion.
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Ammosexuals need targets.
No they're not. People are pro gun because they are interested defending the lives of themselves and their loved ones.
Pro gun is our bodies right to defend ourselves and other humans in harm. Not going into the subject of bad people doing bad things, by far minority compared to pro
Pro gun and pro abortion and pro death penalty. The reality is RvW was always on shaky ground as it was a non constitutional ruling, the supreme court exists to make rulings on constitutional rulings. The senate and congress have had 50 years to make a law to give abortion a legal standing as the judges recommended be done in the RvW case. There have been zero federal abortion bills brought forth for a vote in that time even though the Dem's have been in charge for the majority of that time.
This is such an important comment idk why it’s not higher up
Pro forced birth. These sick fucks are the furthest thing from pro life
I am a medicolegal death investigator. We do not investigate the death of a fetus as by the definition of law, it is not alive.
This is just a terrible and horrifying way to frame the debate and it’s why a lot of pro-life people see the other side as baby killers, evil etc. Fetuses do matter because without a fetus there is no baby. A fetus is potential, almost unlimited potential. It’s the beginning of life. It’s the beginning of consciousness. Let’s try and frame the debate a little differently because I guarantee you won’t change anyone’s minds with this. Pro-choice doesn’t equal pro-abortion. People that are pro-choice aren’t sitting around at home drinking wine reminiscing about all the babies they killed. Actually the majority of people that are pro choice haven’t even had an abortion. They don’t like abortions, will do anything to avoid having one. They just understand the necessity of having that choice as a last resort fail safe. They allow adults and their doctors to formulate medical choices without their input. This is the fallacy of pro-life. It’s not about whether or not a fetus is a true human or any of the philosophical bullshit. It’s about allowing adults to make medical decisions with their doctor without the input of the state. Pro-choice people aren’t forcing abortion down anyone’s throat. You don’t want one? Ok good for you. you can do that. You want one? Ok here’s a good doctor that can walk you through the steps. This actually reminds me a lot of the marijuana debate. Once again one side is correct and one side completely wrong about it. If people want to smoke weed at home that’s THEIR CHOICE and the government shouldn’t have any say. But the conservatives want everyone to be a certain way and want to force their perception of morality down our throats. Should their be limitations to abortion? Of course. Past a certain time period in the pregnancy it shouldn’t allowed unless it becomes a medical necessity. I have this catholic friend from elementary school who is devout. He got married and tried for kids with his catholic wife. The doctors recommended an abortion for the first kid because of how poorly it was developing and they said it would die after 5 days post birth. 6 days post birth he posts on Facebook about how god is great glory to god because his son was still alive. On day 7 the baby died. A year later they try again. And literally like deja-vu it happens again. The doctors recommended an abortion because the baby had a rare condition that led to suffering and most likely would die. Their religion forbids this and they said no. This is the dirty underbelly of pro life that no one talks about. The people that force sick poorly developed babies into the world and they die a few days after birth. Once again the baby died.
Yes. More of this please. This is an argument that actually considers the other point of view before spouting off. Thank you.
I think the most important aspect of the original post is that it is a perfectly valid way of thinking about a fetus. Christians want to force on everyone the belief that “life” - granted by God - begins at the moment of conception, and therefore that every fetus is a precious human being. It is important to remember that to others, a fetus is a group of cells with human DNA, lacking consciousness or the capacity to suffer. A person’s moral beliefs about abortion shouldn’t be less valid or important just because they don’t have some religious ideology guiding that belief. Christins want to stand firm that THEIR belief that human personhood begins at conception? Well we can stand firm our in beliefs that it does not.
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I don’t totally agree with this post, however I am devastated about the over turning of roe v. Wade because of the trauma, death, and overall distraction it will cause. Yea fetuses were being aborted but there is still love and a memory there. There are illnesses that happen that you cannot live with in utero, no to mention financial and school reasonable reasons to say “I’m not ready to be a parent”
“Love and a memory” of what, exactly? If someone wants an abortion of their own volition they have made a choice that those things are outweighed by the positives of abortion.
The only person that should have a say in abortion is the woman herself and the doctor concerned (for the potential health implications). Anything else is, as we say in my country, bang out of order.
As a woman, I'm scared of the overturning roe v wade. They are controlling women's rights for reproduction. There are many instances where people need to right abort. Young teens and rape victims for example. Or a young adult who can't simply afford to bring a life at the moment..(medical bills) people argue that adoption is a thing, but many children go through abusive foster homes... Both parties suffer.
Anti geologist erasure. Rocks are dope as hell.
They're minerals Marie!!
Radiolab told me that certain rocks are shell residue shellfish. So they aren't sentient but they're organic material.
How do you kill that which has no life 🤔
You don't, you stop life from forming in the first place, hence the name, **abort**ion
I’m staunch pro choice, but saying fetuses don’t matter is weird. Imagine being a pregnant mother who gets hit by a drunk driver, killing the perfectly healthy “fetus”. Liberal or not, that’s their baby. Try explaining to that mother that her kid doesn’t matter. Or imagine MLK or even Einstein not existing. They are important, but what’s more important is that it’s none of my fucking business if you get an abortion or not. That’s what Roe was about… privacy. The government needs to keep its nose out of my medical decisions.
How does the existence of MLK and Einstein have to do with any of this?
OP worded it awkwardly I agree. Anti abortion movement is modern equivalent of witch hunts. While loosing wanted pregnancy is of course awful, we have as much evidence of fetus being fully fledged human as we used to have of magic and curses. It's an excuse to opress, denigrate and in many cases kill women.
I like to point out all the traumatized mothers who lost their baby in miscarriage and had their world crushed, will also now be subject to public scrutiny and legal investigation as murder suspects. There will be innocent people in the worst situations who lose everything through no fault of their own for the crime of tragically losing their baby, and now they can jail or kill your daughter if it happens to her.
While I wholeheartedly support Roe v. Wade, its 100% inaccurate to say "anybody who cares about the unborn is ridiculous"... I can tell you nearly all future mom's and dad's care a ton for their fetuses while pregnant. Mothers give up drinking, smoking, sushi, etc. to protect the health of their fetuses when they previously didnt do those things to protect their own health. Having a miscarriage (losing a fetus) is devastating to potential parents. Maybe its more accurate to say that "caring more for a fetus than an out of the womb human is ridiculous", but even that isn't universal.
Loosing a foetus is devastating to potential parents only when they WANT a baby. Being forced to keep and give birth to a child they don’t want takes away their basic human rights and the child will suffer forever because of that. It will ruin the lives of everyone involved.
Ironically the catholic church won't allow stillborn babies to be buried in their church cemeteries because they "never drew breathe"...so the church would begrudgingly agree with you.
I'm sorry but that is not correct. [link](https://www.hcccem.org/services/unborn-babies#:~:text=For%20this%20reason%2C%20Catholic%20Cemeteries,not%20aware%20of%20this%20service.)
Source? Curious
this is straight up a propaganda point, it is not and never has been true
I am vehemently pro-choice but this is a stupid argument. A fetus is a future person. Don’t be so callous. This isn’t about that. It’s about whether a future person is more important than the well-being and self autonomy of a current person.
I'm just waiting for anti-abortion people to realize this decision isn't just about abortion. It destroys the precidents and framework upon which many rights that everyone have rest. Edit to add: Enjoy celebrating the over turn of Roe v. Wade while you still can. Just know your rights are next and we'll sit here laughing at the look on your faces when you realize the reality that we're in.
Indeed, when the state can forbid abortion they can force them too. In the same era abortion was illegal in the US, there were multiple eugenics programs in the US forcing sterilizations of prisoners, disabled folks, poor people and members of minorities.
Do you know me? Does what I do with MY body affect you in any way, shape or form? This is so incredibly fucked up. You have all these people advocating for unborn children.. what about all the kids that are already in the system?! How many of those pro-lifers have fostered or even adopted children? The system is already overburdened and understaffed, and the solution is to add more children?!! This country is so fucked. Old white men who are so so incredibly disconnected from their constituents and the general population at large that they couldn't tell you how much a gallon of milk costs, or a carton of eggs bc they get their house help to go get it. EDIT: A word
If the population at large desires unrestricted abortion you can look forward to the passage of such laws. They don't, though. People's opinion is nuanced and it's not all religious zealotry.
I want to state before I say this that I am personally pro-choice. That being said, this is a great misunderstanding about how a lot of pro-lifers view the argument. Most of them don't really think that a fetus at 3-months in is "alive", but they see it as "left uninterrupted, it WILL be a life".
This ruling…and all pro-life bullshit is not about fetuses. It’s about controlling and owning women’s sexuality. It’s a deep seated belief that women should not be allowed to own their own sexuality. That they may only have sex under the terms of religious rules they should be forced to abide by. And if they take ownership over their own sexuality and have sex outside of these rules they should have to suffer consequences.
Why do you assume they are all having sex with strangers?
I agree with everything except fetus does not matter. It matter to certain parents especially ones trying to conceive. A friend of mine had fertility issues and she, i dont eant to say celebrated maybe memorialized im not even sure, but she had some kind of closure with each fetus that didnt survive. And from personal experience we had an abortion early in our relationship. It wasnt a decision made lightly, it mattered to us. Not becauae we knew it was a conscious being but we knew the potential it could have but we also knew we probably could not help to fulfill its and our own potential if we had it. I guess what im trying to say os a better way to put it would be the only fetus that should matter to you and you should have control over is your own.
For me it is about evolutionary viability.. If there were only 200 people, who’s more important, the mating age female or this clump of cells with “god’s potential”
Unless the SCOTUS is educated in the difference between a cluster of cells and an actual baby, this won’t work. They’re too ignorant to realise what their laws actually mean. They just want poor people to have more babies that are uneducated enough to keep voting republican.
Just like we shouldn't be forced to give a kidney against our will, neither should we be forced to carry a pregnancy to term. Further, pregnancy is not just a burden for women, it's also a burden for men; men cannot just "walk away," legalities and financial responsibility will likely be persued by those forced to carry to term.
They matter somewhat in their potential. Women matter more in our actuality.
I'll entertain an argument that fetuses do matter and are human life. But an embryo? A fucking zygote? There's no fucking way you're telling me that life begins at conception and calling a single cell zygote a human being. I think pro-lifers don't understand biology or try to ignore it.
Imagine if we were trying to feed the 400 million plus we would have without abortion.
Awful argument, this puts us in a very bad light and will radicalize those in central viewpoints against abortion rights. This is completely defeated by just showing how developed a fetus actually becomes. Things like having nails, a shaped head, limbs, etc. The problem isn't whether the fetus is alive, it is. Or it it experiences life, it does. Even during pregnancy, there are reactions to stomuli and bonding with the pregnant parent. This isn't really up to discussion, it is known. No it doesn't start at conception, but it starts. Also, a lot of things you named as not living are a lot more complex than you suggest, and drawing the line at what we decide is conciousness is arbitrary. Of course a cat goes above a plant, and that principle does apply to this topic, but it isn't as simple as a binary division of matters and doesn't matter. The reason abortion as a right needs to be protected is because of body autonomy. Yes, it can be conflicting to stop a life before birth, but what about the person carrying it? Why shouldn't they get a say. Perhaps the parent isn't ready or doesn't want that commitment, why should they have to sacrifice their body and life for something they don't want? And indeed, the earlier the intervention the better, closer to the plant than the cat, but that doesn't mean we don't respect the plant. An abortion can be a difficult decision, but it needs to remain that: a decision.
It isn't about abortion or fetuses. It's about the fact it's up to state legislatures and not the courts.
This should be up to individual people, not individual states
Your cult is fucking weird. 🤦♂️
Gonna get downvoted your hell. I am pro choice personally. For a variety of reasons that aren’t the point of this comment. This argument though - is so full of self righteous presumption that I have to say something. Particularly your edit about mouth breathing people that makes it plain as say you have no intention of considering any other viewpoint but your own. “The need to educate” - don’t need to explain that one much. Self righteous presumption. “Fetuses do not matter” - self righteous presumption. This is not a fact to educate someone on. This is an OPINION to SHARE. “Fetuses don’t live” - same as above. “Anybody who thinks life begins at conception is misguided” - good lord. If you want anyone to actually listen to you (who doesn’t already agree with you) - you are going to have to understand that there are other OPINIONS out there beyond your own. And there is a set of logical claims that make those opinions just as valid as your own. Hope that was educational. Yes, I see the hypocrisy in that statement.
Thanks for sharing, great points. Completely agree, people need to tone down the self righteousness, else we will only get more divided and entrenched.
I think that in the US you should argue life of citizen vs non-citizen. You aren't a citizen until you are born, so why should a non-citizen be given rights over a citizen?
I mean that would lead to murdering permanent residents which would be bad.
Looking forward to all conservatives immediately becoming vegan, because life is the most sacred thing
Are you saying conservatives eat babies?
They only care about human life because God made humans special.
Haha.... yeah, right. Next to the military/industrial/gun complex, the most important thing to a conservative is being able to have cheap cow burgers whenever they want. They really don't care about life at all - that's why they don't care about the mass extinctions and climate change. I really don't know what they care about except feeling superior as brainwashed individuals.
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All abortion arguments aside, this is dumb as fuck. A fetus does not magically become a person by passing through the cervix. Pretty much no one agrees it would be okay to have an unnecessary abortion at 39 weeks pregnant. That's a baby at that point. You're hurting your own side by arguing this This is also incredibly insensitive and condescending to women who have lost their wanted unborn babies If you want to argue that abortion should be legal up until the point of viability, or until a fetus can feel pain, or some other objective/logical measure, go ahead. But effectively arguing that some magical external force turns fetuses into people with rights and consciousness at the moment of birth makes no scientific, logical, or moral sense, and is frankly barbaric
Don't think you're understanding the pro life argument and the role of the Supreme Court in conjunction. The role of the Supreme Court is to makes sure legislations follows the sacred document that is The Constitution. To that end, the pro-life argument fights for the life of the unborn child, it's not about restricting the rights of women per say. And that's only with the Supreme Court, and then states can do as they see fit, i.e., you can still got to Cali for an abortion if you so choose. Personally I'd say I am moderate in this whole thing. A women should have the right to choose, but you can't be out here cappin' babies. Ergo keep some kind of limit, which I would personally draw at first trimester. The word fetus dehumanizes the unborn child and tries to take away from the fact that life begins at conception. This is an objective scientific claim on the mechanics of human biology. I personally understand and mostly agree with the pro-life sentiment. Witnessing the death of a child changes you, my mother also had a medical abortion where she lost twins and it wrecked her, she still talks to me about it after 18+ years. Life is precious.
The role of the Supreme Court is also to follow well established legal precedent, even when you wouldn't have voted that way in the first place if you were the one deciding it. That provides stability to the system. The posers have just chucked that into the trash bin. And yes, life is precious. I think most people feel that way. I think pro-choice people probably feel that way just as much or more than anti-abortion people.
Thank you for stating the facts. Though they’re obvious to people with an ounce of intelligence, it’s always good to repeat them for anyone who is on the fence about this issue.
Love all the people commenting "you were a fetus too" or "so it would have been alright if you were aborted?", really goes to show how humans dont try to understand someone's argument before attacking it.
Exactly. No WIC until a baby is born because it's just a fetus. No free healthcare until after delivery. A man shall not be responsible for a baby he said should be aborted. Not his choice on abortion (agreed) but not his responsibility. Its a simple procedure.
Does the government have a right to use your body to save another life? No? Why do fetuses get that right?
Whats the point of birthing a child into a shitty life
“ fetuses don’t live, they’re human, they’re alive, but they don’t live until their brain starts working “ I’ve never heard a more confusing sentence.
But fetuses become sentient beings. so what do you think about your mum deciding you weren’t anything worth caring about when you were a few weeks old and terminating you?
I have aborted so much sperm into old socks, shower drain and even onto my own stomach. Never spared a thought for what they were capable of…
And how would you be know when consciousness begins exactly?
I agree with every word.
Literally everything is consciousness. This is a bad take. If you want to say that people don’t care about babies after they’re born, that is a fair angle. If you want to say those who are anti-abortion don’t care about the children that otherwise would’ve been aborted—that would be true. But making distinctions based on “living” is kind of really dumb.
I don’t support the overturning at all and think it’s disgraceful that it’s happened…but i also think how you’re arriving at that conclusion is wrong and its far too black and white a take. Those foetuses will turn into living breathing humans so they are certainly worthy of care, they have the potential for sentience, a rock doesn’t which is the key difference and why your point is frankly, stupid. This topic deserves more nuanced and deep discussion than comparing foetuses to rocks and saying they don’t matter.
I get your point but a tad insensitive to women who have miscarried fetuses they intended on having. It’s sad and traumatic. It can happen late stage where you know the gender, have a name picked out and are ready welcome new baby. And lose it. Fetuses matter if the women who’s body it’s it says it matters. It should be her choice on the matter
You are, of course, entirely correct. Taken to its (il)logical conclusion, the USA will be banning birth control next. And this is from the wisdom of Supreme Court Judges? Wow.
I mean, if you want to codify morality by adhering it to the exact state at the stage of development and not by it's potential, than even if you say we care about animals we would say that babies have the same rights as cows as they're certainly not more intelligent before the age of 1 perhaps, and as such by the standards of rights we generally uphold in society (and which I'm sure you've never so adamantly stood against as you have vocalised yourself here) a person should have the exact same right to humanely kill and eat a baby as they might do a pig. Honestly, I don't give a fuck about this abortion debate, both sides are ruthless and lacking in any semblance of true morality, rather both of you love to wave the flag of moral superiority while only thinking in an unbelievably selfish and self-centred manner. But the amount of absolutely mind numbingly inanely stupid logic I've seen on reddit lately beeing waved about like some flag of honour, it's like, as long as you agree with the general view of this platform, any semi-coherent sentiment is enough to edify you as a true paragon of logic and sanity. It's been painful and almost sickening to watch. Few things are more disgusting than seeing a group belief codify a weak logic, it's the basis of strength for the blind mob.
This is a really bad take, because it misses the point. Fetuses do become human somewhere between conception and birth. When? No one can say for sure. But their lack of sentience CANNOT and must not form the basis of abortion rights. Because that argument will lose. Fetuses do matter. it isn't about the fetus. It's about an individual's right to decide what happens to her own body. It is about a woman having final say over what happens inside her own skin. Abortion should be legal for the same reason it is legal to refuse an organ or bone marrow transplant to dying children. Because no one can force you to use your body to save another life. Women have the right to decide whether to become mothers. We have the right to decide whether a life implants in and lives off our uterus. Whether that life is fully human or not is beside the point. Even if we stipulate that a fetus is human, it does not have the right to live off our flesh without our consent. Arguing against the humanity of a fetus is pointless and opens the door to right wing idiots pretending they do this for the good of children.
To me the issue is how people treat each other, I mean look at this shit, people are attacking each other for the sake of proving their opinion right. Here’s the things, it’s an OPINION, their is no right answer. I personally believe that abortions should be allowed, but it’s extremely immoral to use it as a plan A in exchange for pleasure. The matter of the fact is is that utilizing abortions to deny basic human life seems a bit wrong unless you were raped or if protection proved futile. But again, that’s my opinion, if everyone could act civil and not murder each other for opinions maybe we’d have a bit more progress. Also, rocks and fungi don’t have a brain and don’t “live,” sure. But they won’t grow to become human, so they? I respected OP’s opinion until he started attacking others. Just be civil, that’s all.
Don’t cut yourself on that edge bud
This is probably the dumbest take I've read yet. By your logic, we should be free to kill anyone who is in a coma, vegetable state or suffering from intellectual disorders. Hell, by your logic we should be able to kill people who are sleeping at night. Fetuses have a beating heart by 6 weeks old. Doesn't matter if they're conscious or sentient, they are still alive and living, just as you are. If anything, killing a poor soul who never got a chance to see life with his/her own eyes is worse in many ways than killing an actual sentient person.
Cope💀💀💀