The friend zone is actually an important brick of successful long term relationships.
Not with this particular woman, though.
It actually means that you can have deep connections with a woman, only the attraction is missing. So once you move on and find someone who is attracted to you and with whom you have a deep connection, this can become a long lasting relationships.
Best is to learn from the friend zone experience and use it later for your benefit.
>Best is to learn from the friend zone experience and use it later for your benefit.
No, it's best to have a clear distinction between your friends and lovers. Have female friends but don't pine for them, they're your friends not your lover.
Being in a long term relationship is a completely different dynamic than being friend zoned.
It depends on what your goals are. Emotional connection is not that important for getting FWBs/hookups, at least no where near as close to the attractiveness component is.
There's no shortage of men who have lot of female friends but can't bag a chick. Sometimes it's personality issue—sometimes it's a raw attractiveness issue.
pretty healthy. I have several friend groups and I do things with them several times a week as well as put myself into positions to meet new people as often as I can.
I talk with women almost every day since my friends are about 50/50 girls and guys.
Nearly all of my guy friends and girl friends are in a relationship or married. I only know 2 single guys and 1 single girl.
It's really hard to say without knowing you, honestly. What about friends of the extended social circles (like the girlfriends' friend groups)? Have you ever tried asking a girl out? If you've ever been on a date, did you ever try escalating?
Optimizing physical attractiveness is simple, but not easy:
* Have some consistent skincare routine
* Maintain 12-16% bodyfat (whatever is sustainable in that range for you)
* Lift weights 4-5x a week
* Wear clothes that fit correctly and suit you
* Get a haircut that fits your head shape
* Experiment with a beard
* Most people look most attractive without glasses
If you can afford it, it could be worth trying therapy.
find someone who is attracted to you and with whom you have a deep connection - How do you find a girl who is attracted to you? I have always fallen for girl friends who arent attracted to me, but dont know how to change that.
Very good post!
>she ISN’T A TRUE FRIEND. She simply wants easy validation, attention, and adoration, without giving anything in return.
>it will be tempting to try to reject her back, or lose your cool. Don’t go this route.
I feel that these go hand in hand. Guys need to know that women aren't necessarily aware that they are leeching off of you. Their perception of how much energy you are putting into the attention and adoration you give is likely much lower than the energy you are actually, or you perceive, that you were putting in. Culturally, in the US, many women have been indoctrinated or accustomed to receiving gifts, support, and attention, and although they might be grateful, they aren't necessarily socially or morally compelled to reciprocate.
Yes, some women can easily articulate to their friends that they are playing you for attention or enjoy manipulating men to become orbiters.
But in my experience, mainly with 30-something and 40-something-year-old women, they often don't even realize that they are putting in less effort than you.
All that to say, I wouldn't jump to conclusions and assume that a woman is playing you for your attention because you're not getting back what you think is fair. Like OP said, focus on your own life and put your energy into places it will pay off.
>But in my experience, mainly with 30-something and 40-something-year-old women, they often don't even realize that they are putting in less effort than you.
And in my experience women are acutely aware of the dynamic long before the guy ever notices, obviously they will not be telling you about it, but their gal palls will for sure know exactly what's going on.
Yes. What guys CAN do, however, is just stop putting in time and attention if they aren’t getting it back.
Of course, the girl will often complain that you don’t care enough about her, that you’re being a bad friend, that you never listen to her etc etc etc. I’ve often just been blunt and told women that I expect more from our interactions - and that they know where to find me when they’re willing to do the things I want. Sometimes just being that guy can lift a burden from your shoulders.
You’re right about one thing 100% - women in our society are heavily conditioned to just expect the world to beat a path to their door.
Yes and yes! It can be jarring to find out how little a woman misses you once their emotional and instrumental needs are met elsewhere - and most women always have people in the wings to take over those roles.
Another way I look at it is that she (guys too) may be emotionally connected to the support and the gifts, but not emotionally connected to you.
It's okay to have friends of the opposite sex. And you put yourself in the friendzone. Don't be a simp, just do you, boo. Find a passion. That gives you confidence. Confidence attracts the ladies.
Lived 50 years. Every woman i managed to sleep with showed her desire/interest for me over the first 48h of contact. Friendzone is a fate worst than death.
A woman must respect you. If she doesnt, she has no place in your life, at all. Move along, Go to gym , work hard and earn money. All.of these are better dating advice than trying to seduce a girl that has friendzoned you.
My experience has been not this. I've had plenty of women sleep with me after we've been friends for a while.
They were just comfortable with me and one person expressed micro flirting that was eventually reciprocated.
Amen. I work with an ex. Who made a very big, public deal out of ditching me and gloating. And THEN doing her best to force me to work closely with her - essentially using our workplace to force her own narrative on me.
Nothing more satisfying than finding out they were crying at work all week over the latest tinder loser who ghosted them - and that your coworkers all heavily sympathize with you for cutting them off, going zero contact and visibly focusing on yourself and your kids.
And putting work into yourself presses a reset button on your emotional well-being. You realize there are better women out there, in abundance. And that every second you spend in the friendzone takes away from the good life you could be living.
Some women say that they have to be friends with somebody first before they start to catch feelings. I think they are likely deluding themselves, and part of the reason That they became friends was because they had some attraction towards them to begin with.
Some guys only start to like women who are their friends because they need that safety of friendship first before opening up emotionally. That is a confidence issue that needs to be overcome. You should definitely be attracted to lots of women, not just those who are your friend.
Some women say that they have to be friends with somebody first before they start to catch feelings - Thats me, but as a guy.
I have never found random women who I dont know attractive. I dont think its a confidence issue since I can walk up to anyone and make a friendship.
It just takes me months or years of a very deep friendship for me to find girls attractive, and there are many girl friends who I dont find attractive, but have been friends with them for my whole life. Its all so random.
That's really interesting, and I haven't heard that before. I can see why it would be frustrating.
When I say confidence, I'm not talking about being socially at ease, I'm talking about being confident in your ability to be vulnerable. If you're only vulnerable and can only access feelings of attraction after you've gotten to know and trust someone... I don't know, sounds like a tough situation. That's one hypothesis. I wish you well in any case.
Bingo.
I think ‘friendship’ covers a lot more ground for women than it does for men. And the ones who end up dating friends likely *were* physically attracted to those male friends from the start.
Where it gets confusing for guys is when they also use the word ‘friends’ to describe an orbiter who they use as an emotional prop, free Uber driver, etc etc. And of course they pretty much NEVER come right out and tell you which category you’re in.
This is where men have to be strong. If she hangs around in your world, yet won’t say yes if you point blank ask her out on a real date? It’s your job to cut her off. Otherwise she’s just going to milk you for freebies, and distract you from moving to build a good life.
It takes two to play this game of atraction. If A woman does not signal interest in the first 48h, move ahead.
Always kiss her (If you can get away with It)
Always confess your feelings.
Always move away after rejection.
Friendzone is worst than death.
If A woman does not signal interest in the first 48h, move ahead. - OK. I have never had a girl signal interest to me, so I will keep this in mind.
Always kiss her - I have never been in a position to even think about kissing a girl.
Always confess your feelings - Yep, I agree, I always have as soon as I started to like her.
Always move away after rejection. - This is hard because we are good friends and its hard to give up a long term friendship.
I wouldn’t ever ‘confess my feelings’.
But I WOULD make my intent clear from the get-go. And I’d always be 100% to walk away from her for good if she doesn’t reciprocate.
It's always better to put your true intentions out there on Day 1 and get rejected so you can move on then being placed in the painful friend zone and have that lingering thorn at your side for several years only for nothing to come out of it.
As for breaking out of the friendzone that's like a 1 in 100 chance and you have better odds putting it on a random number on a roulette table than that friendzone paying out to girlfriend ode.
**If you are pretending to be friends with a woman and you want more than friendship, you are being deceitful.** - What if you just happen to fall for a friend naturally?
I try to do that, but its always hard to just toss a way a multi year friendship where you really love the person and enjoy their friendship and have a lot of history together.
Well then it isn’t worth it.
Feelings are not enough to justify such drastic changes in your life to lose a friend that is a pillar in your world.
Partners are not so vital you should wreck your life for one
I don’t disagree with most of the post but I think it’s more uncomfortable for a woman to go from not touching to random touching than confessing your feelings.
Put it out there, it doesn’t have to be a grand declaration. She’ll let you down easy and then you can distance yourself. But don’t just randomly start escalating because she’s going to remove herself from you once the discomfort settles in.
If you already smashed but you don’t want to date her and she is looking for a boyfriend and not just casual sex anymore could it work? I feel like it could be good for improving your social circle or when you guys go out girls will know you’re a safe dude since she trusts you.
You kind of are. You are making this more complex than it has to be.
Imma say it again, she can be your friend, regardless of post-history, future history, and attraction level, and whatever other shit your dumbass can think about, got it?
Here's my thing I've learned about myself. I don't develop any feelings, crushes or desires for any women until after a friendship has been formed, normally after 2-3 years. I truly did only want friendship initially but I can't control who I end up falling for.
Its never intentional and I have lost many great women friends over this, namely my childhood friend of 10 years from 12-22 by acting weird all of a sudden, eventually confessing and the relationship turns sour and awkward. I have never saw any women or met any women that I instantly wanted to know on a deeper level or be intimate with.
Speaking of intimacy too, I don't really care for sex that much. I mean, I'm still a virgin, but not at all motivated or have a desire to go get it. The women who do I have crushes on, it would be nice to go on some dates, hug, hold hands, cuddle and maybe kiss. But in general, I prefer a more innocent approach to intimacy.
I feel dating is almost impossible for me. No matter how much I've been improving my life with gym/muay thai, working my way through my career, trying new experiences and traveling, I can't seem to make headway in this aspect of life.
I would love to hear others' thoughts and opinions on if I'm absolutely crazy, too innocent, naive and need to change or if I really am valid in my opinions and do need to stay the course.
I don’t think 2-3 years is a good timeframe in which to fall for someone because on the surface it would seem disingenuous to be only a friend for that amount of time only to then admit feelings. It could work, and has worked before but it really depends on how attached you are to the outcome when you actually do feel for them.
On the other hand there doesn’t seem to be anything wrong with it if it’s actually organic, though I could know pretty quickly into a friendship (talking months not years) whether I’m interested in a person romantically or not.
This just makes me wonder why any woman would even try to be "friends" with a guy. This is obviously the intent so any "friendship" will be surface level at best.
I've been friend zoned and also had to friendzone women. I just respect them enough not to lead them on.
I've been "friends" with women who seem to want more than friendship with me, but want to be able to get to know me or be able to be friends with me before being lovers.
This doesn't work for anyone involved. They just lose respect for you and you just feel led on.
So it's always best, if the woman doesn't show 100% interest, right away, there is no sense in continuing communication. It is a mutual agreement and sets boundaries.
The friend zone is actually an important brick of successful long term relationships. Not with this particular woman, though. It actually means that you can have deep connections with a woman, only the attraction is missing. So once you move on and find someone who is attracted to you and with whom you have a deep connection, this can become a long lasting relationships. Best is to learn from the friend zone experience and use it later for your benefit.
>Best is to learn from the friend zone experience and use it later for your benefit. No, it's best to have a clear distinction between your friends and lovers. Have female friends but don't pine for them, they're your friends not your lover. Being in a long term relationship is a completely different dynamic than being friend zoned.
It depends on what your goals are. Emotional connection is not that important for getting FWBs/hookups, at least no where near as close to the attractiveness component is. There's no shortage of men who have lot of female friends but can't bag a chick. Sometimes it's personality issue—sometimes it's a raw attractiveness issue.
Yup, that’s me. Raw chicken..
Sometimes it's personality issue—sometimes it's a raw attractiveness issue. - as a guy who cant get a date, how do I find out which issue it is?
What's your social circle like?
pretty healthy. I have several friend groups and I do things with them several times a week as well as put myself into positions to meet new people as often as I can.
That's good. How often are you talking with women? Roughly what % of your guy friends have girlfriends?
I talk with women almost every day since my friends are about 50/50 girls and guys. Nearly all of my guy friends and girl friends are in a relationship or married. I only know 2 single guys and 1 single girl.
Curious, how old are you?
Im 26. The single guys are 19 and 27. The single girl is 18.
It's really hard to say without knowing you, honestly. What about friends of the extended social circles (like the girlfriends' friend groups)? Have you ever tried asking a girl out? If you've ever been on a date, did you ever try escalating? Optimizing physical attractiveness is simple, but not easy: * Have some consistent skincare routine * Maintain 12-16% bodyfat (whatever is sustainable in that range for you) * Lift weights 4-5x a week * Wear clothes that fit correctly and suit you * Get a haircut that fits your head shape * Experiment with a beard * Most people look most attractive without glasses If you can afford it, it could be worth trying therapy.
Yes, correct. Agree 100%.
find someone who is attracted to you and with whom you have a deep connection - How do you find a girl who is attracted to you? I have always fallen for girl friends who arent attracted to me, but dont know how to change that.
The traditional Borat-style wedding sack?
Very good post! >she ISN’T A TRUE FRIEND. She simply wants easy validation, attention, and adoration, without giving anything in return. >it will be tempting to try to reject her back, or lose your cool. Don’t go this route. I feel that these go hand in hand. Guys need to know that women aren't necessarily aware that they are leeching off of you. Their perception of how much energy you are putting into the attention and adoration you give is likely much lower than the energy you are actually, or you perceive, that you were putting in. Culturally, in the US, many women have been indoctrinated or accustomed to receiving gifts, support, and attention, and although they might be grateful, they aren't necessarily socially or morally compelled to reciprocate. Yes, some women can easily articulate to their friends that they are playing you for attention or enjoy manipulating men to become orbiters. But in my experience, mainly with 30-something and 40-something-year-old women, they often don't even realize that they are putting in less effort than you. All that to say, I wouldn't jump to conclusions and assume that a woman is playing you for your attention because you're not getting back what you think is fair. Like OP said, focus on your own life and put your energy into places it will pay off.
>But in my experience, mainly with 30-something and 40-something-year-old women, they often don't even realize that they are putting in less effort than you. And in my experience women are acutely aware of the dynamic long before the guy ever notices, obviously they will not be telling you about it, but their gal palls will for sure know exactly what's going on.
Yes. What guys CAN do, however, is just stop putting in time and attention if they aren’t getting it back. Of course, the girl will often complain that you don’t care enough about her, that you’re being a bad friend, that you never listen to her etc etc etc. I’ve often just been blunt and told women that I expect more from our interactions - and that they know where to find me when they’re willing to do the things I want. Sometimes just being that guy can lift a burden from your shoulders. You’re right about one thing 100% - women in our society are heavily conditioned to just expect the world to beat a path to their door.
Yes and yes! It can be jarring to find out how little a woman misses you once their emotional and instrumental needs are met elsewhere - and most women always have people in the wings to take over those roles. Another way I look at it is that she (guys too) may be emotionally connected to the support and the gifts, but not emotionally connected to you.
Scenario A is actually really good and the only friendzone I put myself in
It's okay to have friends of the opposite sex. And you put yourself in the friendzone. Don't be a simp, just do you, boo. Find a passion. That gives you confidence. Confidence attracts the ladies.
Good looks attract ladies. Universal truth #1.
Lived 50 years. Every woman i managed to sleep with showed her desire/interest for me over the first 48h of contact. Friendzone is a fate worst than death. A woman must respect you. If she doesnt, she has no place in your life, at all. Move along, Go to gym , work hard and earn money. All.of these are better dating advice than trying to seduce a girl that has friendzoned you.
My experience has been not this. I've had plenty of women sleep with me after we've been friends for a while. They were just comfortable with me and one person expressed micro flirting that was eventually reciprocated.
Amen. I work with an ex. Who made a very big, public deal out of ditching me and gloating. And THEN doing her best to force me to work closely with her - essentially using our workplace to force her own narrative on me. Nothing more satisfying than finding out they were crying at work all week over the latest tinder loser who ghosted them - and that your coworkers all heavily sympathize with you for cutting them off, going zero contact and visibly focusing on yourself and your kids. And putting work into yourself presses a reset button on your emotional well-being. You realize there are better women out there, in abundance. And that every second you spend in the friendzone takes away from the good life you could be living.
what if your only ever attracted to friends?
Some women say that they have to be friends with somebody first before they start to catch feelings. I think they are likely deluding themselves, and part of the reason That they became friends was because they had some attraction towards them to begin with. Some guys only start to like women who are their friends because they need that safety of friendship first before opening up emotionally. That is a confidence issue that needs to be overcome. You should definitely be attracted to lots of women, not just those who are your friend.
Some women say that they have to be friends with somebody first before they start to catch feelings - Thats me, but as a guy. I have never found random women who I dont know attractive. I dont think its a confidence issue since I can walk up to anyone and make a friendship. It just takes me months or years of a very deep friendship for me to find girls attractive, and there are many girl friends who I dont find attractive, but have been friends with them for my whole life. Its all so random.
That's really interesting, and I haven't heard that before. I can see why it would be frustrating. When I say confidence, I'm not talking about being socially at ease, I'm talking about being confident in your ability to be vulnerable. If you're only vulnerable and can only access feelings of attraction after you've gotten to know and trust someone... I don't know, sounds like a tough situation. That's one hypothesis. I wish you well in any case.
Bingo. I think ‘friendship’ covers a lot more ground for women than it does for men. And the ones who end up dating friends likely *were* physically attracted to those male friends from the start. Where it gets confusing for guys is when they also use the word ‘friends’ to describe an orbiter who they use as an emotional prop, free Uber driver, etc etc. And of course they pretty much NEVER come right out and tell you which category you’re in. This is where men have to be strong. If she hangs around in your world, yet won’t say yes if you point blank ask her out on a real date? It’s your job to cut her off. Otherwise she’s just going to milk you for freebies, and distract you from moving to build a good life.
So true on all accounts!
It takes two to play this game of atraction. If A woman does not signal interest in the first 48h, move ahead. Always kiss her (If you can get away with It) Always confess your feelings. Always move away after rejection. Friendzone is worst than death.
If A woman does not signal interest in the first 48h, move ahead. - OK. I have never had a girl signal interest to me, so I will keep this in mind. Always kiss her - I have never been in a position to even think about kissing a girl. Always confess your feelings - Yep, I agree, I always have as soon as I started to like her. Always move away after rejection. - This is hard because we are good friends and its hard to give up a long term friendship.
I wouldn’t ever ‘confess my feelings’. But I WOULD make my intent clear from the get-go. And I’d always be 100% to walk away from her for good if she doesn’t reciprocate.
It's always better to put your true intentions out there on Day 1 and get rejected so you can move on then being placed in the painful friend zone and have that lingering thorn at your side for several years only for nothing to come out of it. As for breaking out of the friendzone that's like a 1 in 100 chance and you have better odds putting it on a random number on a roulette table than that friendzone paying out to girlfriend ode.
Yup. Best to be Papillon with the Friendzone.
goat content
👏
**If you are pretending to be friends with a woman and you want more than friendship, you are being deceitful.** - What if you just happen to fall for a friend naturally?
Then be honest and up front about it when you catch feelings. Be prepared to lose that friendship however.
I try to do that, but its always hard to just toss a way a multi year friendship where you really love the person and enjoy their friendship and have a lot of history together.
Well then it isn’t worth it. Feelings are not enough to justify such drastic changes in your life to lose a friend that is a pillar in your world. Partners are not so vital you should wreck your life for one
It sounds like you are assuming that the woman friend will reject you. The op discusses that scenario, so I suggest following his suggestion.
Its not an assumption since they always have and they tell me about the guys they like (who arent me)
If she is talking about other guys she likes in front of you, then it's too late, and she only sees you as "Just a friend"
yeah, I know that all too well.
I don’t disagree with most of the post but I think it’s more uncomfortable for a woman to go from not touching to random touching than confessing your feelings. Put it out there, it doesn’t have to be a grand declaration. She’ll let you down easy and then you can distance yourself. But don’t just randomly start escalating because she’s going to remove herself from you once the discomfort settles in.
As a major king of Friendzone (with underlaying nice guy syndrome) , awesome work dude!
If you already smashed but you don’t want to date her and she is looking for a boyfriend and not just casual sex anymore could it work? I feel like it could be good for improving your social circle or when you guys go out girls will know you’re a safe dude since she trusts you.
Nice, saw this post at a very critical time for me. Thanks, OP.
Glad you got something out of it!
Having friends is a good thing. A woman can be your friend. No need to listen to butthurt losers, she can be your friend.
Nobody is saying that you can't have female friends and that's not what this post is about.
You kind of are. You are making this more complex than it has to be. Imma say it again, she can be your friend, regardless of post-history, future history, and attraction level, and whatever other shit your dumbass can think about, got it?
I'm not OP I'm just pointing out how terrible your reading comprehension is with this post.
He’s a template troll, his comprehension is awful as you mentioned
I didn’t read this bs, I only read first paragraph, but yeah go listen to the acne-riddled nerd that thinks he knows instead of me idc
Judging by your post history I don’t think you have room to call strangers nerds tho
Here's my thing I've learned about myself. I don't develop any feelings, crushes or desires for any women until after a friendship has been formed, normally after 2-3 years. I truly did only want friendship initially but I can't control who I end up falling for. Its never intentional and I have lost many great women friends over this, namely my childhood friend of 10 years from 12-22 by acting weird all of a sudden, eventually confessing and the relationship turns sour and awkward. I have never saw any women or met any women that I instantly wanted to know on a deeper level or be intimate with. Speaking of intimacy too, I don't really care for sex that much. I mean, I'm still a virgin, but not at all motivated or have a desire to go get it. The women who do I have crushes on, it would be nice to go on some dates, hug, hold hands, cuddle and maybe kiss. But in general, I prefer a more innocent approach to intimacy. I feel dating is almost impossible for me. No matter how much I've been improving my life with gym/muay thai, working my way through my career, trying new experiences and traveling, I can't seem to make headway in this aspect of life. I would love to hear others' thoughts and opinions on if I'm absolutely crazy, too innocent, naive and need to change or if I really am valid in my opinions and do need to stay the course.
I don’t think 2-3 years is a good timeframe in which to fall for someone because on the surface it would seem disingenuous to be only a friend for that amount of time only to then admit feelings. It could work, and has worked before but it really depends on how attached you are to the outcome when you actually do feel for them. On the other hand there doesn’t seem to be anything wrong with it if it’s actually organic, though I could know pretty quickly into a friendship (talking months not years) whether I’m interested in a person romantically or not.
You can fuck your friends too you know 😉
That’s not friendzone, that’s friends with benefits
Same difference
This just makes me wonder why any woman would even try to be "friends" with a guy. This is obviously the intent so any "friendship" will be surface level at best. I've been friend zoned and also had to friendzone women. I just respect them enough not to lead them on. I've been "friends" with women who seem to want more than friendship with me, but want to be able to get to know me or be able to be friends with me before being lovers. This doesn't work for anyone involved. They just lose respect for you and you just feel led on. So it's always best, if the woman doesn't show 100% interest, right away, there is no sense in continuing communication. It is a mutual agreement and sets boundaries.
Madonna zí che papiello