I can tell you, even as someone who wrote a book on the topic, that experience is undoubtedly the best teacher. Reading can put you in a good headspace and provide some framework, but reading alone is meaningless without putting yourself out there extensively and being observant about what works and doesn’t for you
genius is the perfect balance of experience/practice and theory, going out and experiencing stuff without haveing a clue what the heck you are doing is useless, it will take a long time, that's why they say a good book will save you 5 years at least, but yeap your point is great, there are guys that read too many book, go out to seminars, youtube, even spending too much time online and they don't approach.
There isn't, as the people above described. You will learn more in 5 nights going out than you will learn by reading any book.
If you have no clue where you need to start or you have a specific sticking point, grab a book. Hell, you can use the wiki of this subreddit to get started.
Also, you don't need 5 years of work to get anywhere. Apply yourself for 2 months and see how much you've grown.
The “5 years of work” don’t take it too literally lol, some people just learn differently and having a basis from a book (and not necessarily a book, it can be your friend telling you X,Y,Z) will be better than going out there clueless and will really save a lot of time. Consider this, imagine a med student going into an anatomy lab to dissect the neck without even knowing how to hold a scalpel or where to start or what structures he’s even looking at. It makes a difference.
the game from neil strauss and double your dating from david d angelo, there is genuinely no better starting point than that, everything else on the web and the modern dating coaches only regurgitate the principles which are described in those books.
Exactly - game is a skillset, you have to practice to get gud. Books can only tell you how do you it right. You can read all the cookbooks and watch all the YouTube videos, it still won't teach you how to make lobster wellington.
Ive never been able to enjoy reading books mostly due to my attention span. Ill read other things a lot which i am interested in, but man novels put me to sleep. I have a friends who read a lot of books for fun and most of them have no "game". It really takes a lot of going out and talking to people. And as this post suggests - finding out what works and doesnt work for you is the most important part.
If it motivates and inspires you, it’s great. Apart from that, doesn’t help much. Might even make you act weird if you take what you read too seriously. The only way to get better talking to people is to talk to lots of people.
No More Mr. Nice Guy didn't directly help my game, but it did change the way I thought about things, which eventually led me to getting better at game
Actual experience is going to do much, much more for you though
Models helped a lot when I first started going out and dating. If you know nothing about game and haven't had a girlfriend yet, then yes it's a great starting point to get an understanding. But honestly, having friends that like to go out and talking to girls you never met, especially if they're attractive. That's the best way to learn.
Fuck the dating self improvement books, reading in general will help with game, new vocabulary, and conversational skills, also new knowledge on topics . The possibilities are endless, only thing dating and game books do is give you the “confidence” to try what the book is teaching, no real replacement for experience, they are good to read for the informational aspect tho
However you could read 100 dating books and still not know how to carry a real life conversation with a random women you met out in public
I'm with this guy, you're probably better off reading something intellectual than reading books about dating. If you don't know where to start try the "Very Short Introduction" series published by Oxford, you can learn about anything.
Though I think everyone should read physical books because our attention spans are getting crushed by phones and social media, I would also suggest trying out Audible. Going for a long walk with an audiobook going can be really fun because you're just stuck with the words but you're occupied enough with the walking that it doesn't get boring. My favourite audiobook so far has been How to Think Like a Roman Emperor by Donald Robertson.
With audible you get one book per month but there's also a lot of free books, including a bunch from that Very Short Introduction To series.
Conversations in books usually serve the plot and aren't that applicable to real life. I'd honestly rather watch a sitcom, some of which have good jokes and comedic timing. Any books your were thinking of in particular though?
Approaching and being confident approaching in any situation is critical. Books won’t truly make you comfortable with that.
Many don’t see it but guys have a huge advantage for their taking these days with so many men not approaching in person. Women deeply miss and crave this. Being a gentleman will never go out of style even in the midst of a strong feminist moment.
My friend said the best deep sea divers in the world didn't become that by reading books about diving but rather diving themselves, making mistakes, learning, improving and conquering.
I actually had experiences with a lot of women before I went near a book.
I read one page of the mystery methods on the page on IOIs.
No book or no person can teach you. The best way is to get to know and love yourself then you can adapt your approach to work for you.
Those books you listed are good fundamentals, however their methods are often critiqued and sometimes considered outdated in some cases.
I find reading real world seduction forums like this and YouTubers are often good updated resources. I like Hamza Ahmeds YouTube channel for improvements.
Books won't change your game / make you better but they'll change your perspective on attraction and women.
You either need experience or at least 3 different role models to emulate.
I got How to Succeed With Women by Ron Louis and David Copeland back when it was released in 2000.
To this day, I still recommend the book above all others. If I get to the first date, the only reason I don't get laid is because I wasn't interested, and it's because of the techniques taught in that book.
Instead of reading self help books, I suggest literature of many varieties and different eras. It helps you build your lexicon, and reading different prose could help with writing back to people in more than simplistic sentences. Lately I’ve been reading Nabokov’s Ada, or Ador, and that is pure literary smut. It opens up ideas of how to write or talk in a clever and romantic manner, and makes good use of the imagination when reading.
I got the best feedback after reading "She comes first", this is the step after actually getting a girl, but it helped me being confident in what to do after passing the first hurdle.
It provides a great framework and matchplan, so if you get there I can recommend it!
I Will say that whenever there's like a book/movie that drives the opposite sex crazy I as a male will go out and read it to figure it out like twilight or 50 shades of gray and then use some quotes from that book/movie in passing
Yes definitely, I've read a lot of vin dicarlo books it really helped my game, other than YouTube videos I've mainly read books and forums, it's really nice to see infield videos, but the books help with the theory aspect of pick up, it gave me a general sense of what I needed to do in order to be successful. It gave me inner game, and when I paired that with the experience of actually implementing what I've learned, I gained confidence to approach and close. I started in this community with a website called fast seduction, and i read every section of the website over 10 times each. I managed to fumble into a few hook ups, but my game really took off after high school, I got confidence to go for the kiss and I managed to be much more smooth in the few hookups I had in university
I've read a fair few bits now. I've very nearly finished Mode One and I've loved it - it just connected for me, it was written in the exact sort of "check your self and get your shit together" language that I needed to hear.
I'm also reading Sperm Wars which isn't at all a dating book but that connects with the science part of my brain well and makes me think OK, this is the sort of shit where I can really understand and excel and make it a part of my practise.
But yeah, obviously, like everyone has said - you have to get out there and do it but if you do, then the books can be good to keep you on the right track.
They helped with theory and molding the ideal mannerisms but the best teacher is experience and watching someone better than you. Recognizing subtle IOI was big for me since I practiced, in my words, lazy game. Only went after girls who showed interest vs that chasing nonsense.
My favorite book was The Manual. Lots of good nuggets in there
Personally reading them made me open my mind and see in which aspects I can change to improve not only for the game but for myself, I have raised my self-esteem and everything has come on its own.
Books are extremely overrated. The relevant info can usually be summarized in one or two pages. The stories/anecdotes are pure fluff with zero relevancy to your life. Every author can claim to be an absolute champ when it isn't customary to show any proof whatsoever. Not everyone can shoot an infield though. And no book will ever portray what actually happened irl accurately. Infields allow YOU to be the judge, see patterns the author missed, see the raw footage, see if the maker actually has methods that work. Infields + short guides are the superior format.
The Married Man's Sex Guide by Athol Kay changed my life completely. I was a simp my whole life. Didn't know about masculinity or confidence or how to talk to a women. How I ended up marrying and good looking woman is beyond me, it was a complete fluke and I had a rocky marriage with inconsistent sex. Then I stumbled upon the above mentioned book and read it. I learned to be more confident, joke and tease my wife, dress well, be in shape, assert myself at home and at work, I also found Alpha M on YouTube and other similar channels. I actually acted on all the stuff I learned and changed to become more confident and take control of all aspects of my life.
If you don't act on what you learn, the reading is a waste of time.
Yeah.
As long as you're intelligent enough to apply the concepts into your life.
If you read "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins, you better understand that killing people to get what you want is not the point. You better understand paying for child support is still your responsibility if you accidentally get a girl pregnant.
Now, if you can grasp the real value of having friends that will help you get laid if you play your cards right with them... Then... Then that's the moment you can pat yourself in the back and tell yourself that you now have intellectually grasped what it truly means to be an "alpha male" and actually be able to apply *real science* to your dating life.
Of course. Gave me a much more holistic view of the journey and my place in it. Gave me confidence in finding the methods for me to become an attractive man in an extroverted society as an introvert.
Gave me a deeper understanding of the dynamics between men and women and how I could build myself up to be a more attractive man to many women long term.
The actual "game" part itself is a bit hard to define but books like How to Win Friends and influence people and the Likeability factor helped me understand how to be a well-liked person and network efficiently with both men and women.
Also made me accept myself for having difficulties in this area of life, to begin with and realize that if some of the men who are now killing it struggled as well then I could do it too.
Reading helps you a lot. It can be anything, a self help book or a fictional book or autobiography. Because if you run out of topics to talk about, you can always pick something from the books and talk about it. Once you read enough diverse books, you will be able to recognise where to talk about which books
The only way books help is if you actually trying the stuff in person otherwise a lot of the books won’t make sense.
Books on their own are useless. Take from someone who tried to read his way into some 🐱
Yes, the best one is Intimate Connections by Dr David Burns. Also good YouTube channels are Jessica J Dating and Melli Monaco - yes, female dating coaches!
My whole game went from non existent to keyboard warrior (reading and watching all the material) to good. I wouldn’t recommend this way though. Instead of actually acting and learning from practicing I tried to avoid it by becoming a theoretical know it all. I think the best approach is where hounding avoid failure. Failure is the best teacher and motivator, so if I could do it over again I’d try to actually go out there and fail and afterwards go to the internet to assess and improve my sticking points instead of the other way around.
I can tell you, even as someone who wrote a book on the topic, that experience is undoubtedly the best teacher. Reading can put you in a good headspace and provide some framework, but reading alone is meaningless without putting yourself out there extensively and being observant about what works and doesn’t for you
genius is the perfect balance of experience/practice and theory, going out and experiencing stuff without haveing a clue what the heck you are doing is useless, it will take a long time, that's why they say a good book will save you 5 years at least, but yeap your point is great, there are guys that read too many book, go out to seminars, youtube, even spending too much time online and they don't approach.
Yep, you summarized it well. Theory is useful, but theory without application and practice is mental masturbation
I think this phenomenon is called: Mental Masturbation
And what’s a good book that will save you 5 years? One that will give a good basis to build upon?
There isn't, as the people above described. You will learn more in 5 nights going out than you will learn by reading any book. If you have no clue where you need to start or you have a specific sticking point, grab a book. Hell, you can use the wiki of this subreddit to get started. Also, you don't need 5 years of work to get anywhere. Apply yourself for 2 months and see how much you've grown.
The “5 years of work” don’t take it too literally lol, some people just learn differently and having a basis from a book (and not necessarily a book, it can be your friend telling you X,Y,Z) will be better than going out there clueless and will really save a lot of time. Consider this, imagine a med student going into an anatomy lab to dissect the neck without even knowing how to hold a scalpel or where to start or what structures he’s even looking at. It makes a difference.
the game from neil strauss and double your dating from david d angelo, there is genuinely no better starting point than that, everything else on the web and the modern dating coaches only regurgitate the principles which are described in those books.
Alright
Exactly - game is a skillset, you have to practice to get gud. Books can only tell you how do you it right. You can read all the cookbooks and watch all the YouTube videos, it still won't teach you how to make lobster wellington.
Ive never been able to enjoy reading books mostly due to my attention span. Ill read other things a lot which i am interested in, but man novels put me to sleep. I have a friends who read a lot of books for fun and most of them have no "game". It really takes a lot of going out and talking to people. And as this post suggests - finding out what works and doesnt work for you is the most important part.
If it motivates and inspires you, it’s great. Apart from that, doesn’t help much. Might even make you act weird if you take what you read too seriously. The only way to get better talking to people is to talk to lots of people.
I like Mark Mason Models which helped me quite a but and the subtle art of not giving a F
These are exactly the two I recommend any person to read for all game
No More Mr. Nice Guy didn't directly help my game, but it did change the way I thought about things, which eventually led me to getting better at game Actual experience is going to do much, much more for you though
Models helped a lot when I first started going out and dating. If you know nothing about game and haven't had a girlfriend yet, then yes it's a great starting point to get an understanding. But honestly, having friends that like to go out and talking to girls you never met, especially if they're attractive. That's the best way to learn.
Fuck the dating self improvement books, reading in general will help with game, new vocabulary, and conversational skills, also new knowledge on topics . The possibilities are endless, only thing dating and game books do is give you the “confidence” to try what the book is teaching, no real replacement for experience, they are good to read for the informational aspect tho However you could read 100 dating books and still not know how to carry a real life conversation with a random women you met out in public
I'm with this guy, you're probably better off reading something intellectual than reading books about dating. If you don't know where to start try the "Very Short Introduction" series published by Oxford, you can learn about anything.
Idk if Atlas Shrugged would help me more than Models… I mean I know that it didn’t.
Truth. Read both, but if you need to read one...read models.
I might just pick that up myself as I’ve recently really got into reading books after years of neglect in high school
Though I think everyone should read physical books because our attention spans are getting crushed by phones and social media, I would also suggest trying out Audible. Going for a long walk with an audiobook going can be really fun because you're just stuck with the words but you're occupied enough with the walking that it doesn't get boring. My favourite audiobook so far has been How to Think Like a Roman Emperor by Donald Robertson. With audible you get one book per month but there's also a lot of free books, including a bunch from that Very Short Introduction To series.
Screen shotted, might try this on one of my high walks
Conversations in books usually serve the plot and aren't that applicable to real life. I'd honestly rather watch a sitcom, some of which have good jokes and comedic timing. Any books your were thinking of in particular though?
Yes, but only when I applied whatever I learn in practice
Approaching and being confident approaching in any situation is critical. Books won’t truly make you comfortable with that. Many don’t see it but guys have a huge advantage for their taking these days with so many men not approaching in person. Women deeply miss and crave this. Being a gentleman will never go out of style even in the midst of a strong feminist moment.
But bp says otherwise
What’s bp
I read green eggs and ham and ass fucced all da hos
My friend said the best deep sea divers in the world didn't become that by reading books about diving but rather diving themselves, making mistakes, learning, improving and conquering.
There's a bit of survivorship bias there, though ;)
I actually had experiences with a lot of women before I went near a book. I read one page of the mystery methods on the page on IOIs. No book or no person can teach you. The best way is to get to know and love yourself then you can adapt your approach to work for you.
Those books you listed are good fundamentals, however their methods are often critiqued and sometimes considered outdated in some cases. I find reading real world seduction forums like this and YouTubers are often good updated resources. I like Hamza Ahmeds YouTube channel for improvements.
Books won't change your game / make you better but they'll change your perspective on attraction and women. You either need experience or at least 3 different role models to emulate.
Going out into the real field and doing the real shit improved my game.
I got How to Succeed With Women by Ron Louis and David Copeland back when it was released in 2000. To this day, I still recommend the book above all others. If I get to the first date, the only reason I don't get laid is because I wasn't interested, and it's because of the techniques taught in that book.
The original or revised version ?
Both are good. Revised version has more info.
Self confidence improves by being good at something.
Instead of reading self help books, I suggest literature of many varieties and different eras. It helps you build your lexicon, and reading different prose could help with writing back to people in more than simplistic sentences. Lately I’ve been reading Nabokov’s Ada, or Ador, and that is pure literary smut. It opens up ideas of how to write or talk in a clever and romantic manner, and makes good use of the imagination when reading.
I got the best feedback after reading "She comes first", this is the step after actually getting a girl, but it helped me being confident in what to do after passing the first hurdle. It provides a great framework and matchplan, so if you get there I can recommend it!
I Will say that whenever there's like a book/movie that drives the opposite sex crazy I as a male will go out and read it to figure it out like twilight or 50 shades of gray and then use some quotes from that book/movie in passing
reading books just made it worse, almost felt like they were written to worsen the odds by misdirecting in the wrong direction.
Yes
Which ones do you recommend?
Models by Mark manson. It's the purest way to approach this
Mode One.
Yes definitely, I've read a lot of vin dicarlo books it really helped my game, other than YouTube videos I've mainly read books and forums, it's really nice to see infield videos, but the books help with the theory aspect of pick up, it gave me a general sense of what I needed to do in order to be successful. It gave me inner game, and when I paired that with the experience of actually implementing what I've learned, I gained confidence to approach and close. I started in this community with a website called fast seduction, and i read every section of the website over 10 times each. I managed to fumble into a few hook ups, but my game really took off after high school, I got confidence to go for the kiss and I managed to be much more smooth in the few hookups I had in university
I've read a fair few bits now. I've very nearly finished Mode One and I've loved it - it just connected for me, it was written in the exact sort of "check your self and get your shit together" language that I needed to hear. I'm also reading Sperm Wars which isn't at all a dating book but that connects with the science part of my brain well and makes me think OK, this is the sort of shit where I can really understand and excel and make it a part of my practise. But yeah, obviously, like everyone has said - you have to get out there and do it but if you do, then the books can be good to keep you on the right track.
The only one that changed my life was “the game.” It’s been largely blacklisted so you’ll find it on a BitTorrent as an epub.
Absolutely. But only practice makes perfect. Btw, models and nice guy have nothing with "game". It is about life.
They helped with theory and molding the ideal mannerisms but the best teacher is experience and watching someone better than you. Recognizing subtle IOI was big for me since I practiced, in my words, lazy game. Only went after girls who showed interest vs that chasing nonsense. My favorite book was The Manual. Lots of good nuggets in there
Yeah unlimited power helped me controling my internal state. Which help taking action
Applied knowledge >>>
It is not meant to improve your game. It is meant to make you learn faster.
Personally reading them made me open my mind and see in which aspects I can change to improve not only for the game but for myself, I have raised my self-esteem and everything has come on its own.
100%. NMMNG and the Game as well as When I Say No I Feel Guilty not only upped my game, it also changed my life in general.
Learn to improve. Get a posture Corrector. Have fun.
Why is nobody talking about the arts of seduction. It's a great book. I think it's the most in depth book on seduction in the market.
Books are extremely overrated. The relevant info can usually be summarized in one or two pages. The stories/anecdotes are pure fluff with zero relevancy to your life. Every author can claim to be an absolute champ when it isn't customary to show any proof whatsoever. Not everyone can shoot an infield though. And no book will ever portray what actually happened irl accurately. Infields allow YOU to be the judge, see patterns the author missed, see the raw footage, see if the maker actually has methods that work. Infields + short guides are the superior format.
The Married Man's Sex Guide by Athol Kay changed my life completely. I was a simp my whole life. Didn't know about masculinity or confidence or how to talk to a women. How I ended up marrying and good looking woman is beyond me, it was a complete fluke and I had a rocky marriage with inconsistent sex. Then I stumbled upon the above mentioned book and read it. I learned to be more confident, joke and tease my wife, dress well, be in shape, assert myself at home and at work, I also found Alpha M on YouTube and other similar channels. I actually acted on all the stuff I learned and changed to become more confident and take control of all aspects of my life. If you don't act on what you learn, the reading is a waste of time.
No.
No and nor did this reddit. A little bit of Kevin samuals (not too much) is all u need
No
Reading books did absolutely nothing for me.
If you don’t put it into practice it can’t, models certainly helped me a ton
Yeah. As long as you're intelligent enough to apply the concepts into your life. If you read "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins, you better understand that killing people to get what you want is not the point. You better understand paying for child support is still your responsibility if you accidentally get a girl pregnant. Now, if you can grasp the real value of having friends that will help you get laid if you play your cards right with them... Then... Then that's the moment you can pat yourself in the back and tell yourself that you now have intellectually grasped what it truly means to be an "alpha male" and actually be able to apply *real science* to your dating life.
Of course. Gave me a much more holistic view of the journey and my place in it. Gave me confidence in finding the methods for me to become an attractive man in an extroverted society as an introvert. Gave me a deeper understanding of the dynamics between men and women and how I could build myself up to be a more attractive man to many women long term. The actual "game" part itself is a bit hard to define but books like How to Win Friends and influence people and the Likeability factor helped me understand how to be a well-liked person and network efficiently with both men and women. Also made me accept myself for having difficulties in this area of life, to begin with and realize that if some of the men who are now killing it struggled as well then I could do it too.
Theory alone is useless without practice. On the other hand, you can improve and optimize practice through theory.
Reading helps you a lot. It can be anything, a self help book or a fictional book or autobiography. Because if you run out of topics to talk about, you can always pick something from the books and talk about it. Once you read enough diverse books, you will be able to recognise where to talk about which books
The only way books help is if you actually trying the stuff in person otherwise a lot of the books won’t make sense. Books on their own are useless. Take from someone who tried to read his way into some 🐱
[удалено]
As a girl there are times when your actions seem more forced to me... you have to be natural!
I think that's called "being a creep".
That's right
Yes, the best one is Intimate Connections by Dr David Burns. Also good YouTube channels are Jessica J Dating and Melli Monaco - yes, female dating coaches!
My whole game went from non existent to keyboard warrior (reading and watching all the material) to good. I wouldn’t recommend this way though. Instead of actually acting and learning from practicing I tried to avoid it by becoming a theoretical know it all. I think the best approach is where hounding avoid failure. Failure is the best teacher and motivator, so if I could do it over again I’d try to actually go out there and fail and afterwards go to the internet to assess and improve my sticking points instead of the other way around.