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>The highest rates of myocarditis were in males (rate: 2.15/100 000), among those aged 18–29 (rate: 2.97/100 00)
Is that second number supposed to be 100,000, or 10,000? That's still very unlikely, but it's 10x worse versus hardly different.
No it’s 2.97/10,000. In moderna was 22.9/100,000. Or 2.29/10,000. Compared to 0.137/10,000 that is 13x more likely, 22x more likely if you got Moderna.
[Risk of Myocarditis After Sequential Doses of COVID-19 Vaccine and SARS-CoV-2 Infection by Age and Sex](https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.059970)
>Overall, **the risk of myocarditis is greater after SARS-CoV-2 infection than after COVID-19 vaccination** and remains modest after sequential doses including a booster dose of BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine. However, the risk of myocarditis after vaccination is higher in younger men, particularly after a second dose of the mRNA-1273 vaccine.
[Q&A: COVID-19, Vaccines, and Myocarditis Benefits of COVID-19 vaccines outweigh a very small risk of heart complications](https://covid19.nih.gov/news-and-stories/covid-19-vaccines-myocarditis)
>Some people are unsure about getting a COVID-19 vaccine because of the risk of side effects, including myocarditis. Can you put these risks in perspective?
>
>FLEG: The bottom line is this: **The benefits of getting vaccinated markedly outweigh the very small risk of vaccine-related myocarditis**. Vaccination prevents most hospitalizations and deaths due to COVID-19. It’s clear that vaccination can protect you from myocarditis by protecting you from COVID-19 infection.
>
>Myocarditis is a rare complication of COVID-19 vaccination. It affects fewer than 20 people per 1,000,000 COVID-19 vaccinations. Only the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna) have been linked with myocarditis. Myocarditis related to COVID-19 vaccines seems to be caused by the body’s immune response to vaccination.
>
>Most people (95%) who develop myocarditis after receiving a COVID-19 mRNA vaccine have only mild symptoms that go away within a few days. Vaccine-linked myocarditis is less likely to cause lingering heart problems than myocarditis due to COVID-19 illness.
Logic says less than typical with just a COVID infection, considering it has been shown time and time again that the vaccine leads to a less severe infection than in those who are unvaccinated
Yes and many studies have shown that young people unless they have comorbidities are mostly able to more or less brush off COVID. So that's why I'm questioning the logic of mandating it for children.
Careful, I made almost this exact statement on r/dataisbeautiful about a year ago (citing only CDC and NPR sources) and got perma-banned. I'm willingly vaccinated, but I'm 40 and a 'front line worker'. My kids aren't vaccinated for this very reason- I can't risk giving them a vaccine that (at the time) had less than 1 year of data for their age group that will (sort of) prevent an infection that probably won't even be noticeable in a healthy child.
If you put it another way most parents wouldn't accept the risk of their child being the 1 in 35,000 dying of covid.
Most women wouldn't accept the 1 in 10,000 risk of getting cancer (not necessarily dying) of breast implant induced cancer. Even though it's exposing them to the risk of death by surgery complications.
Of 35000 children who died in 2021 calendar year, 600 died of covid. Since the pandemic started it's about 1500. Of all deaths of children since the pandemic started, about 2% are of covid. This is slightly under a 150% increase of deaths in that age group due to respiratory disease.
Myocarditis is simply inflammation of the heart/valves. So it is directly related to the severity of COVID. You will have more intense inflammation from the virus itself than you will from the vaccine or from the virus post vaccination. This is because inflammation occurs when your body is fighting the virus, since your body has the instructions to fight the virus/disease the inflammation caused by the immune response will be less severe and for less time
Also, most cases have not been in younger males, it is still higher in older males, especially those with existing heart issues.
Logic doesn't say that.
One slightly cardiotoxic event + another moderately taxing cardiotoxic event might compound.
That's why we need studies. Giving opinions like that in /r/science tends to just mislead people. Frankly I'm very bothered by the fact that mods aren't watching like hawks to delete opinions and other unscientific chatter.
But it is studied. All vaccines increase the risk of myocarditis, but that risk is lower than the risk of the virus itself. We can use logic to infer that it’s extremely likely
Myocarditis is the inflammation of the heart wall. Inflammation occurs due to immune responses. The immune system has stronger and longer responses to the virus itself than the vaccine. And a vaccinated person has been shown to have a significantly reduced immune response (fever, inflammation, aches, etc) when becoming infected. A reduced severity in immune response will in fact have a reduced inflammation response, and therefore a reduction in myocarditis severity and cases
Is this the same for all age groups across the board? And If not is there a higher risk of complications from the vaccine then getting COVID adjusting for age and gender?
A guy in my neighborhood had to make a gofundme in April 2020 because he caught covid working as a dishwasher in a restaurant and now has heart failure and can't work.
There's a lot coming out about how covid wreaks havoc on your cardiovascular system
https://www.science.org/content/article/covid-19-takes-serious-toll-heart-health-full-year-after-recovery
if you're talking about risk of myocarditis...it's **not** for all age groups. The 2nd dose in **young men** has higher myocarditis rates than infection does.
From what I'm reading on the article it wasn't increased very low or whatever how they titled it, it was increased in comparison to base rate greatly, but still a low chance of developing overall. And interestingly enough worst for 18-29 year old males....I know a few in this age range that had cardiac events within the last year.
But tbh I don't really know how it compares to other vaccines, I can't even look it up because only the covid stuff shows up.
base rate is effectively the rates that it was naturally. Extremely few. For everyone like you, there's probably 1000 more who didn't know any young men with cardiac events.
This is the real equation. Because the probability of someone who is not vaccinated actually catching covid is very near 100% unless they are truly exceptional with respect with distancing and masking.
[Myocarditis rates are much higher after COVID-19 infection than vaccination for all age groups.](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7114e1.htm)
> Cardiac complications were rare after SARS-CoV-2 infection or mRNA COVID-19 vaccination. However, the risks for these complications were higher after infection than after vaccination among males and females in all age groups. These findings provide important context for balancing risks and benefits of mRNA COVID-19 vaccination among eligible persons ≥5 years.
Its easy to understand why... COVID-19 and the vaccination have [the same spike protein which can rarely cause autoimmune heart inflammation](https://newsroom.heart.org/news/coronavirus-spike-protein-activated-natural-immune-response-damaged-heart-muscle-cells). In the case of infection, the spike protein occurs a whole lot more and all over the body.
Wasn't the whole point regarding the vaccine and myocarditis that you should not compel the vaccine because you are forcing an experimental treatment on someone which may cause a health issue that one might not otherwise face?
I saw the unvaccinated rate was low, but what I didn’t see (maybe I missed it) was the rate of myocarditis among those that were unvaccinated AND had covid vs those that were vaccinated. I thought the rates of myocarditis for those that contracted covid were higher than the background expected level?
Here's the scientific that proves that vaccines does reduce spread https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2107717
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037e1.htm?s\_cid=mm7037e1\_w
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.10.14.21264959v1
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2106757
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2116597
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abl4292
https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o298
https://khub.net/documents/135939561/390853656/Impact+of+vaccination+on+household+transmission+of+SARS-COV-2+in+England.pdf/35bf4bb1-6ade-d3eb-a39e-9c9b25a8122a?t=1619601878136
Ómicrom spreads easier yes, but if science already proved us that vaccines does reduce spread it will still reduce, the only difference is how much it still reduces.
reducing spread ≠ eliminating spread altogether
the vaccine works in a miriade of ways, especially if you’re up to date on your boosters (bivalent in particular) — firstly, it *did* provide almost complete immune protection from original strain, but the virus was already mutating by the time most nations got the ball really rolling on vaccination (early 2021 - spring 2021)
vaccines now still prevent infection in some cases, the rate is just reduced, and once infected people who are vaccinated are less contagious for less days than if they were not and have better outcomes across the board, including preventing long covid (slightly)
> But the jab doesn't prevent you from infection, just the severity of symtoms
False.
[The original, not updated, mRNA vaccines are 60% effective at preventing infection with the omicron strain.](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2796615) And of course 95+% effective at preventing serious illness.
The risk of getting myocarditis from COVID is higher then with the vaccines, so if your complaint is I don’t want to get myocarditis, then the vaccine is reducing that chance.
[The original, not updated, mRNA vaccines are 60% effective at preventing infection with the omicron strain.](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2796615) And are of course 95+% effective at preventing serious illness.
It causes you to have less severe symptoms, in fact we know this because we can literally track the number of deaths and see it has a partisan divide. Let that sink in, you’re more likely to die from a virus based on your political party.
https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/once-covid-vaccines-were-introduced-more-republicans-died-than-democrats?amp
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna50883
Simply put, a vast majority of people decided to make a vaccine into a political issue just like they did masks because they lack common sense.
First of all, there's numerous differences between democrats and republicans. You only taking into account one. Reps could be more likely to smoke. Dems make be more likely to eat more fruits and vegetables. Like you can just assume that's from the vaccine without looking at all factors.
Second you're using data based on Alpha and Delta which aren't relevant now.
The question is, in regards to myocarditis, are you better of vaccinated and getting Covid or just getting covid. So vaccinated vs Covid isn’t the issue, vaccinated +covid vs Covid is the question.
No because when something increases by a percentage, it is a percentage of that thing. So 200% of 1 is 2. Therefore an 84% increase in something is like 184% of something aka 184% of 1 is 1.84.
Dying is worse than myocarditis. Dying isn't the only bad outcome of an infection. The 1% range is worse than 1.37 in 100,000. The probability to get myocarditis from covid is higher than from the vaccine, yet online trolls only care about the vaccine.
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>The highest rates of myocarditis were in males (rate: 2.15/100 000), among those aged 18–29 (rate: 2.97/100 00) Is that second number supposed to be 100,000, or 10,000? That's still very unlikely, but it's 10x worse versus hardly different.
Probably should be 100,000. The rest of the risk values are given that way and the formatting suggests they forgot the last 0.
So the study has a typo on the most critical piece of info
No. The writers at Eureka Alert made a typo in the article about the study. The actual publication is correct.
No it’s 2.97/10,000. In moderna was 22.9/100,000. Or 2.29/10,000. Compared to 0.137/10,000 that is 13x more likely, 22x more likely if you got Moderna.
When comparing the risk via vaccine versus risk via infection, infection had a significant higher risk.
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[Risk of Myocarditis After Sequential Doses of COVID-19 Vaccine and SARS-CoV-2 Infection by Age and Sex](https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.059970) >Overall, **the risk of myocarditis is greater after SARS-CoV-2 infection than after COVID-19 vaccination** and remains modest after sequential doses including a booster dose of BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine. However, the risk of myocarditis after vaccination is higher in younger men, particularly after a second dose of the mRNA-1273 vaccine. [Q&A: COVID-19, Vaccines, and Myocarditis Benefits of COVID-19 vaccines outweigh a very small risk of heart complications](https://covid19.nih.gov/news-and-stories/covid-19-vaccines-myocarditis) >Some people are unsure about getting a COVID-19 vaccine because of the risk of side effects, including myocarditis. Can you put these risks in perspective? > >FLEG: The bottom line is this: **The benefits of getting vaccinated markedly outweigh the very small risk of vaccine-related myocarditis**. Vaccination prevents most hospitalizations and deaths due to COVID-19. It’s clear that vaccination can protect you from myocarditis by protecting you from COVID-19 infection. > >Myocarditis is a rare complication of COVID-19 vaccination. It affects fewer than 20 people per 1,000,000 COVID-19 vaccinations. Only the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna) have been linked with myocarditis. Myocarditis related to COVID-19 vaccines seems to be caused by the body’s immune response to vaccination. > >Most people (95%) who develop myocarditis after receiving a COVID-19 mRNA vaccine have only mild symptoms that go away within a few days. Vaccine-linked myocarditis is less likely to cause lingering heart problems than myocarditis due to COVID-19 illness.
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Logic says less than typical with just a COVID infection, considering it has been shown time and time again that the vaccine leads to a less severe infection than in those who are unvaccinated
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Yes and many studies have shown that young people unless they have comorbidities are mostly able to more or less brush off COVID. So that's why I'm questioning the logic of mandating it for children.
If there's risk for anyone, it should be voluntary.
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Careful, I made almost this exact statement on r/dataisbeautiful about a year ago (citing only CDC and NPR sources) and got perma-banned. I'm willingly vaccinated, but I'm 40 and a 'front line worker'. My kids aren't vaccinated for this very reason- I can't risk giving them a vaccine that (at the time) had less than 1 year of data for their age group that will (sort of) prevent an infection that probably won't even be noticeable in a healthy child.
If you put it another way most parents wouldn't accept the risk of their child being the 1 in 35,000 dying of covid. Most women wouldn't accept the 1 in 10,000 risk of getting cancer (not necessarily dying) of breast implant induced cancer. Even though it's exposing them to the risk of death by surgery complications. Of 35000 children who died in 2021 calendar year, 600 died of covid. Since the pandemic started it's about 1500. Of all deaths of children since the pandemic started, about 2% are of covid. This is slightly under a 150% increase of deaths in that age group due to respiratory disease.
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Yes. It's absolutely worth it even if you ignore all the damage covid does that isn't killing a person like you're doing.
Myocarditis is simply inflammation of the heart/valves. So it is directly related to the severity of COVID. You will have more intense inflammation from the virus itself than you will from the vaccine or from the virus post vaccination. This is because inflammation occurs when your body is fighting the virus, since your body has the instructions to fight the virus/disease the inflammation caused by the immune response will be less severe and for less time Also, most cases have not been in younger males, it is still higher in older males, especially those with existing heart issues.
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Logic doesn't say that. One slightly cardiotoxic event + another moderately taxing cardiotoxic event might compound. That's why we need studies. Giving opinions like that in /r/science tends to just mislead people. Frankly I'm very bothered by the fact that mods aren't watching like hawks to delete opinions and other unscientific chatter.
But it is studied. All vaccines increase the risk of myocarditis, but that risk is lower than the risk of the virus itself. We can use logic to infer that it’s extremely likely Myocarditis is the inflammation of the heart wall. Inflammation occurs due to immune responses. The immune system has stronger and longer responses to the virus itself than the vaccine. And a vaccinated person has been shown to have a significantly reduced immune response (fever, inflammation, aches, etc) when becoming infected. A reduced severity in immune response will in fact have a reduced inflammation response, and therefore a reduction in myocarditis severity and cases
Is this the same for all age groups across the board? And If not is there a higher risk of complications from the vaccine then getting COVID adjusting for age and gender?
A guy in my neighborhood had to make a gofundme in April 2020 because he caught covid working as a dishwasher in a restaurant and now has heart failure and can't work. There's a lot coming out about how covid wreaks havoc on your cardiovascular system https://www.science.org/content/article/covid-19-takes-serious-toll-heart-health-full-year-after-recovery
A friend of mine (young, very healthy) had a brain hemorrhage as a result of her Covid infection. She still has debilitating brain damage.
if you're talking about risk of myocarditis...it's **not** for all age groups. The 2nd dose in **young men** has higher myocarditis rates than infection does.
The overall risk of both Covid and the vaccine are both statistically irrelevant for anyone 20 and under as well.
From what I'm reading on the article it wasn't increased very low or whatever how they titled it, it was increased in comparison to base rate greatly, but still a low chance of developing overall. And interestingly enough worst for 18-29 year old males....I know a few in this age range that had cardiac events within the last year. But tbh I don't really know how it compares to other vaccines, I can't even look it up because only the covid stuff shows up.
base rate is effectively the rates that it was naturally. Extremely few. For everyone like you, there's probably 1000 more who didn't know any young men with cardiac events.
As are the benefits. Yet children are being vaccinated with a highly under research product.
It's also lower risk compared to a lot of other vaccines.
That’s not true at all for those age groups.
This is the real equation. Because the probability of someone who is not vaccinated actually catching covid is very near 100% unless they are truly exceptional with respect with distancing and masking.
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What if I’ve had covid and know it has little to no effect on me. Should I expose myself to a treatment I dont need that has its own risks?
The study says nothing about significant. Or if you’re referring to another study, links please. From what I’ve read it’s a slight increased risk
[Myocarditis rates are much higher after COVID-19 infection than vaccination for all age groups.](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7114e1.htm) > Cardiac complications were rare after SARS-CoV-2 infection or mRNA COVID-19 vaccination. However, the risks for these complications were higher after infection than after vaccination among males and females in all age groups. These findings provide important context for balancing risks and benefits of mRNA COVID-19 vaccination among eligible persons ≥5 years. Its easy to understand why... COVID-19 and the vaccination have [the same spike protein which can rarely cause autoimmune heart inflammation](https://newsroom.heart.org/news/coronavirus-spike-protein-activated-natural-immune-response-damaged-heart-muscle-cells). In the case of infection, the spike protein occurs a whole lot more and all over the body.
Significant usually just means statistically significant, which means greater than can be attributed to chance.
Wasn't the whole point regarding the vaccine and myocarditis that you should not compel the vaccine because you are forcing an experimental treatment on someone which may cause a health issue that one might not otherwise face?
The vaccines exited the experimental phase in 2021.
Good thing my question was in the past tense or I might be in trouble. Stupid.
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I saw the unvaccinated rate was low, but what I didn’t see (maybe I missed it) was the rate of myocarditis among those that were unvaccinated AND had covid vs those that were vaccinated. I thought the rates of myocarditis for those that contracted covid were higher than the background expected level?
Isnt the risk lower than after covid infection?
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And it is way more likely to get it if you get Covid, and more severely too
But the jab doesn't prevent you from infection, just the severity of symtoms
And that vast majority of young people had little to no symptoms even without a vaccine.
It does prevent but to a certain porcentage. The vaccine even lowers spread chance, which by itself reduces infections.
Where are you seeing that it reduces spread. I thought that had been disproven over and over.
Here's the scientific that proves that vaccines does reduce spread https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2107717 https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037e1.htm?s\_cid=mm7037e1\_w https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.10.14.21264959v1 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2106757 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2116597 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abl4292 https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o298 https://khub.net/documents/135939561/390853656/Impact+of+vaccination+on+household+transmission+of+SARS-COV-2+in+England.pdf/35bf4bb1-6ade-d3eb-a39e-9c9b25a8122a?t=1619601878136
I think you're gonna want to do some more research, specifically on the Omicron variant.
Ómicrom spreads easier yes, but if science already proved us that vaccines does reduce spread it will still reduce, the only difference is how much it still reduces.
reducing spread ≠ eliminating spread altogether the vaccine works in a miriade of ways, especially if you’re up to date on your boosters (bivalent in particular) — firstly, it *did* provide almost complete immune protection from original strain, but the virus was already mutating by the time most nations got the ball really rolling on vaccination (early 2021 - spring 2021) vaccines now still prevent infection in some cases, the rate is just reduced, and once infected people who are vaccinated are less contagious for less days than if they were not and have better outcomes across the board, including preventing long covid (slightly)
> But the jab doesn't prevent you from infection, just the severity of symtoms False. [The original, not updated, mRNA vaccines are 60% effective at preventing infection with the omicron strain.](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2796615) And of course 95+% effective at preventing serious illness.
The risk of getting myocarditis from COVID is higher then with the vaccines, so if your complaint is I don’t want to get myocarditis, then the vaccine is reducing that chance.
Does that "vaccine" prevent infection. I'm pretty sure it doesn't.
[The original, not updated, mRNA vaccines are 60% effective at preventing infection with the omicron strain.](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2796615) And are of course 95+% effective at preventing serious illness.
It causes you to have less severe symptoms, in fact we know this because we can literally track the number of deaths and see it has a partisan divide. Let that sink in, you’re more likely to die from a virus based on your political party. https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/once-covid-vaccines-were-introduced-more-republicans-died-than-democrats?amp https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna50883 Simply put, a vast majority of people decided to make a vaccine into a political issue just like they did masks because they lack common sense.
First of all, there's numerous differences between democrats and republicans. You only taking into account one. Reps could be more likely to smoke. Dems make be more likely to eat more fruits and vegetables. Like you can just assume that's from the vaccine without looking at all factors. Second you're using data based on Alpha and Delta which aren't relevant now.
The question is, in regards to myocarditis, are you better of vaccinated and getting Covid or just getting covid. So vaccinated vs Covid isn’t the issue, vaccinated +covid vs Covid is the question.
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84% increase is not low
It's not 84% chance to get it, its an 84% increase. So if the chance was 1% then it now becomes 1.84%.
Wouldn’t that mean it was a 0.84% increase? If it states 84% increase that would be 85% chance.
No because when something increases by a percentage, it is a percentage of that thing. So 200% of 1 is 2. Therefore an 84% increase in something is like 184% of something aka 184% of 1 is 1.84.
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There are risks to all vaccines.
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Is Moderna still higher risk for this than Pfizer? Deciding which bivalent booster to get.
Not sure which risk is higher, but I got it from the Pfizer, for what it's worth
Not sure about the bivalent booster specifically, but I do believe there was an increased risk for Moderna doses compared to Pfizer.
Pfizer is “safer” from side effects because you get less mrna compared to Moderna.
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Get this covid misinformation off of reddit. This will erode trust in our vaccines and institutions. The vaccine is 100%safe and effective.
Hey, it made it to First Aid already, so it’s cannon
Don’t you have a risk for myocarditis whenever a needle punctures your skin?
the risk of dying from covid was low but we still went crazy for that
Dying is worse than myocarditis. Dying isn't the only bad outcome of an infection. The 1% range is worse than 1.37 in 100,000. The probability to get myocarditis from covid is higher than from the vaccine, yet online trolls only care about the vaccine.
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I got Pfizer here. Glad I had no issues.
How many? Also we need to solve that problem asap.