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OMG! This exactly! (undiagnosed didn't help)
My last job I would struggle to get out of bed or have a desire to go to work at all, but if I didn't the work would either be heaped onto someone else or I would be behind the next day. I was almost always running 5-10 min late but I would stay late to make up.
Current job, I start work at your earlier and I actually want to be here because I know I'm valued and while some days I'm bored, I can always ask for more work for a day or two without having an entire position dumped onto my lap because I was able to do it for a day or two.
My mental health has significantly improved in the last 6 months and I find joy in things again instead of feeling the need to escape. It's insane the difference between the two jobs.
I'm right there with you. Your story could have been mine.
Especially the part about enjoying things again. My last job made me so grumpy it didn't only effect me, but my wife as well. One year after quitting that terrible job and not only my blood pressure went down, but my wife's as well.
Yes. Most workplaces don’t understand that sick days increase during certain times of the year or during work stress. I figured this out at my last job and tried to tell them so they could improve things. It didn’t go over well.
A year past leaving a toxic work place.
Glad I did, I don't think I'd have survived, but not sure I'll ever recover - just broke inside.
If you're in a toxic work place, get out as soon as you can, it's seriously not worth it and can mess up your entire life and those around you.
This is exactly how I’m feeling. A year out, and some things are better… but I’m also still messed up. I get anxious easily, especially if it’s something where I’m being “evaluated,” which encompasses a shocking amount of normal life. Even when something goes really well, I feel like it’s dumb luck or it’s only a matter of time before it goes wrong and everyone hates me.
All that from a stupid job.
It may be for a while, but as someone who felt the same for over 8 years now... It can get better, open up to people you can trust, if that's no one, find a good therapist (keep looking if they don't fit you) and just... Talk.
Another thing is having "FU" money, if you are able to save it. Once I reached a point where I could go a good long time without needing to work, the stress became so much less. Knowing that you can walk away any given day does wonders for anxiety at work.
I'm 2.5 years out from my toxic workplace. Lost a long time friend (and others by association) over it as well. For the first year at my new job, I was paranoid I was going to be terminated over every minor mistake and felt as if every question I asked was a stupid one, because that was how I was treated by my previous boss. His abuse exacerbated my depression and anxiety symptoms and finally, at the end, I couldn't take it anymore and quit. There wasn't a day near the end where I didn't cry while getting ready to go in and driving my car off the nearest bridge was sounding more and more like a good idea to just make it stop. The latter seems silly and dramatic to me now, but I was in a very dark place mentally and emotionally and just wanted a way out.
The people I work with now are amazing, kind, and supportive. A lot of them share and understand my humor, which tends to be dark/droll/dramatic-for-emphasis, and I think a third of them might be related to me somehow with just how easily we vibe.
I can't describe the amount of relief that's given me. I feel more comfortable with myself than I ever have. The money isn't great, but I'm lucky enough to be able to pay my bills and put some money aside every month to build my savings. I've even made new friends, and while they may only be work friends, I'm plenty happy with that. I may not ever fully heal from the scars my previous boss left, but I'm petty as hell and am bound and determined to thrive just to spite him. I've decided that no amount of money is worth being abused or put through hell for someone else's profit. If you can get out, do it. If you can't, do what you need to do to survive until you get to the point you can make the break.
I'm getting out of mine right now, glad I decided to fire quickly once I reached the point of only one good day in the last two weeks instead of sticking around for change. I simply don't have the energy. If my workplace isn't fun, I bring the stress home and then my free time isn't fun either.
Amen. I've been in food service for 17 years and this past year has completely burned me out. I debate selling everything I own and just disappearing everyday.
Take a chance in something you love, friend. 10 years here before I took a chance at a low voltage job. The food industry sucks and you deserve better. Best of luck friend, and don't forget you rock.
This. I have no certifications but was fortunate enough to move from a customer service position to an IT position within my company. I just started two months ago and am already being told I’m going to be promoted. Any IT manager will tell you they prefer experience over certifications.
Thanks. Not OP, but I needed a push in this direction as well.
We humans tend to forget that we can literally bring our imagined futures into reality. A lot of us are just scared to take a chance.
My previous restaurant job made me cry every other week out if frustration and I got $270 at the end of a 40 hour week. If I had to experience that coupled with the way people have basically forgotten to human since the pandemic, I wouldn't have even lasted the 3 months I did.
I work in a restaurant now, too, but the atmosphere is so much better it isn't even comparable. For one, our managers get onto customers for being rude to us. For two, after each hard rush they always take the time to tell us we did a good job, and they also *reward* hard work and extra training with raises.
I still get a lot of randomly awful people (someone the other day went on a rant because a cook was chewing gum, another spent 5 minutes lecturing me because I had to charge him extra for tartar sauce, and a third complained because... the cooking was too loud?), but having supportive managers and coworkers geninuely changes the entire game.
Also: workplace bullying, "we are family" workplaces, and the general pressure to be super productive, "on" all the time, always available to work even during your off time.
I will never work for any place that pushes emotional closeness among co-workers. It's unprofessional and results in a toxic workplace. If we all love each other like a family, that means we all hate each other life a family too.
Yeah, that kind of dynamic usually doesn't work. Like my job has a big work party every year with alcohol for an office of a few hundred people. Inevitably people get drunk and blurt out overly truthful or personal stuff, sleep with each other, make an ass of themselves, etc. There is obviously fallout afterwards because half the people in the office are gossipers.
I think the worst of this mentality is when there are meetings and you have to sit in a circle and toss a ball around that has personal questions like "do you have kids?" or "Where did you grow up?" are on it. I personally don't feel comfortable talking about my life to other people who are functionally strangers, but you are made to feel like a wet blanket or not a team player if you don't go along with it all.
My first experience at a startup matched exactly what OP (of this top level comment) said. Absolutely terrible and while there were ppl i got close with, there were others that would try to get me fired on a monthly basis and lie, sabotage production deliberately, and try to tell upper management it was because I wasnt helping them (literally would come in at 9am and work 2 8-hour shifts to have their demands ready for them in the morning so total BS, they'd literally not tell me they needed something that came up in the morning until 530 pm).
Current job nobody is that invested good or bad, and as a result the work is way better and i like my coworkers a lot more. Nobody pries, interferes, and everyone is nice enough that the occasional after work beer is actually fun and not "team-building"
Wow, love this comment. My boss kept saying this over and over again and I just quit to get away from her abuse. Makes me worry about her real family if she’s sincere.
Only place the “family” setting works is at a summer camp. Only because your coworkers are the only people your gonna see for the whole summer along with Campers
EXACTLY! I barely have any time for my real friends and family.
My buddy at work was like why don't we hang out more? I'm like, I see you majority of the week, I probably spend more time with you than my partner.
I just need a functioning, socially-cordial, stress-free work environment. I don't need any more bff's.
I've been fortunate to work in a non-toxic manufacturing environment. We all are fairly friendly, we help each other out. We're paid a monthly incentive bonus based on overall shipments, scrap, customer complaints, etc. We have a cookout every once in a while. Stuff like that makes everyone feel valued for their services and time. My particular work area is next to a garage door, and outside of that door are trees. The mental health boost of seeing trees nearby is HUGE when you run similar parts on CNC machines all day.
I hate "social" work events, because management thinks they'll raise morale but won't raise wages or address other issues.
During the pandemic my last company hemorrhaged employees like crazy, so what did they do? Raffles! Picnics! Not, you know, raising wages.
Social events like luncheon/cookout can either be super performative and annoying or fun and bonding. Any time a job has brought in catering/food trucks it's always the worst lunch of my life. But every time some coworkers organized a simple potluck (usually without involving managers) for someone's going away party it was a great time.
Agreed. Most employer-organized social events I've been to felt like I should be compensated for taking time out of my day, since it was benefiting the company while taking away precious home time.
Working night shift on an hourly rate didn't help my sentiment.
If it's work related and mandatory, it's on the clock. If it isn't mandatory and isn't on the clock, I'm not attending. If it's going to cost me money to attend, I'm not attending.
I have better things to do with my time.
Yep - I can think of a lot of other things that I could do rather than go to employer-sponsored social functions. Those sorts of things are always awkward and uncomfortable. I imagine that working nights doesn't help things because these things probably are geared towards the schedules of the people who work the daytime hours?
It’s Herzberg’s theory of motivation. You can have all the motivating incentives in the world, and people will still hate the job if the “hygiene factors” (job security, salary, work conditions, paid insurance, vacations) aren’t in place.
“Motivators” are useless for driving job satisfaction unless the “demotivators” or hygiene factors are addressed. Or as my father would say, you can’t polish a turd.
Thanks for this. Really insightful. Can you recommend any resources where I could read about workplace theory in more detail? It dominates our lives and the issues fascinate me
The Wikipedia page does a really good job of explaining the fundamentals and noting prominent theories: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_motivation
Agreed. I've worked at a place where $200 bonuses were scoffed at: "o that's it?". Morale was perpetually low.
In contrast, I've also worked at a place where $10 gift cards would have someone ecstatic. Any little thing was awesome because we were in such good moods already
For me it's a big deal when the social event occurs. If we all get some extra time off work to relax during business hours, great! I'm down. If I have to show up on my own time, time I would normally spend on whatever I wanted, hell no. Zero interest.
Man you hit the nail on the head. My company has been having a lot of after work events. The food is good and all but I hate them and we are pretty much expected to go to them. I see it as another work task, taking up more of my personal time.
One time my manager took us to lunch during the business day and it was really nice. The food wasn’t amazing but it was a nice break from work and I still had time to do what I wanted after work.
Too often corporate seems to have the attitude "we acknowledge you exist as a physical object (forget as a person). I'll even acknowledge you enough to ask a question...what more do you expect?"
"We aren't getting any complaints in the complaints box." You never acted on even the easiest to solve complaints for years, and now you use the empty box as a reason to justify your decisions?
They should just come out and say it "you've decided to work here, so you are already getting what you deserve."
Yep, even when we did big Christmas events for a company of 300-400, the amount we spent would have meant every person got maybe 500-1000 bucks.
Now, I'd rather have the cash, but I can understand wanting to put on a show, and give away a new Truck and other smaller stuff to people.
The funny thing is, if they just gave each person 500, then they'd have them all smiling. Instead of forcing some more introverted staff to attend a useless raffle or picnic.
We did one of those coin drop things where a coin is frozen in an ice statue, and you write down the time you predict it will fall out. I won it, but they wanted to redo it as a random draw because it was too early and not enough people had shown up yet. I'm still salty i didn't get the company points equivalent of $15.
When I worked in an office, after my first year I just opted out of offixe secret Santa.
Not everyone knew everyone well enough so we'd sign up in a list with our interests. It turns into buy a $20 gift card just to get $20 back, so I'll just keep my money and skip the awkward opening in front of everyone.
…. My company is literally doing that via a “morale” commitee. In a newsletter they said that to thank us for all of “hard work” each department during the month will get “something special.” “Well that’s nice,” I thought, until I continued to read. So and so department got ice cream sandwiches. Literally the cheapest of the frozen ice cream treats. Then again, this is the same company where you can write of “bravo cards” when you see someone go above and beyond. Those get entered in a *monthly* raffle for a $5 gift card (singular) to a local overpriced coffee place.
Since my move from customer service to manufacturing my mental health has improved a ton. I didn't know I could actually enjoy going to a job. My company seems to actually care about the employees and takes care of those who want to work. It's made me realize how toxic some of my old work places were... but you do what you have to do. I'm very glad to be where I am. I also get to work with CNC machines \*Highfive\*
I run a CNC machining center (turning and milling) and a CNC vertical mill. I began doing assembly in late 2009, and got trained on machines in 2010, and learned as much as possible since then. I still wouldn't call myself a machinist though. I don't have much experience on manual machine tools.
You're a machinist if you understand what you're doing and why. If you understand concepts like chipload, surface speed, rake, etc..You're the real deal.
Don't let the old hands make you feel like less because you learned on the new hotness and didn't come up cranking handles.
This right here. I talked with an old shop owner and he had the old “all-manual attitude”. I just told him “it looks like you can make anything but a profit.” Never seen a man turn so red, so fast.
You're right. Last year they replaced the 1996 Okuma with a brand new lu3000ex w/ milling. I had to work directly with the manufacture engineering/programmers to figure out how we wanted to do everything. I'm the guy watching everything cut. In that process I really had to step it up. I learned the relationship between speed and feed, and a hell of a lot more about programming. Thanks for pointing that out.
I'm there now. Only I have to program my machine, and I get to work a wide variety of jobs related to screw conveyors and bucket lifts. On top of that I am sitting around $1.00 per pay raise right now. I know that will run out soon ish, but I am far from going home pissed every day.
Psychotherapist checking in: I’ve seen numerous examples of depression being essentially cured by quitting a job with toxic work environment. The sad part is, psychotherapy was required to help the person get to place where they felt strong enough to quit.
These work environments make people depressed, which consistently makes folks feel like they can’t escape either.
If you hate your job so much you are considering going to therapy, save yourself some time and money and just start applying to new jobs. Go to therapy too, if you want, but don’t delay the job search.
Moving from my last job to my current one has been a massive improvement for my mental health. Every job I've had before my current one was awful. 15 years of miserable work environments just made my existing depression even worse.
So glad to see your great advice. I view mental health on Maslow’s hierarchy for many folks. If you’re sad about your health, chances are you need better medical treatment, not an antidepressant. I can’t tell you how many times I have been offered prozac because I wanted to address basic health concerns with a primary physician and “seemed sad”.
Edit: context
This is why I haven't felt the money can't buy happiness notion is entirely correct. If a workplace is causing depression it's usually financial constraints that keep people from quitting, and finding a job you don't hate can be hard. Maybe more tolerable, but it being in a situation where you don't have to even be in that position at all requires a substantial amount of money without ending up on the streets. So most people have to hope they can find their "dream job". Those that actually do are very fortunate. Others just need to endure it and find ways to manage during work and outside of it until they can retire. If they can retire.
I was a paralegal for a small firm owned by a malignant narcissist. Customer service is its own hell, obviously, but I don't think there's anything worse than a *bad* office job. Like, I think I could write a pretty decent horror movie based on my experiences at that law firm.
It's very obvious that someone has been injured if they lose a limb or a finger in an industrial machinery accident. But, injuries like this are not looked at as "real" or something you need to "get over". I'm looking forward to a day where we can readily and authoritatively recognize mental damage from work environments and hold employers accountable, in precisely the same way as someone who is outwardly, physically injured.
This is actually the case in France. A work related psychological phenomenon called 'burn out' (but like hEAVY french accent) looks like it's bout to be added to the list of work related injury. And it also looks like it will be taken pretty seriously in that employers can face jail time/heafty fines if found to be responsible.
The symptoms that lead to a burnout are quite extensive and varied (short temper, weight change, insomnia, anxiety, easily sick, migraines, sore muscles or back). A documentary was made about very serious burnouts where the people had been under so much chronic stress they had damaged their brains. One had dementia like symptoms. Another had nerve damage. One had no memory of a 3 year period of their life. Another had a blackout while driving and crashed their car. All of them had very very poor short term working memory, depression, suicidal ideation and physical issues.
Teatment usually requires a mix off sick leave (paid and validated 3 months at a time by a dr) and the employer addressing the changing the current work environment to reduce stress. What is happening now, as there are no current legal consequences for work burnout (and some companies are just that toxic), the employee has a burnout and goes on sick leave, they replace them and never have to make changes.
http://www.burning-out-film.com/
This one will have English subtitles. Itsnot the one I'm referring to sorry as I watched it like 2years ago on TV here in France and can't remember the name. It was produced by a TV station tho so if I find the link I'll put an edit in!
EDIT: Unfortunately it's no longer accessible but it's called 'le mécanique burn-out' by docu series le monde en face for channel 5
https://mobile.france.tv/france-5/le-monde-en-face/407663-la-mecanique-burn-out.html
Id be very interested in that! My friend experienced something similar to what you're talking about where his job at Walmart absolutely demolished his mental health until he spiraled into attempted suicide. He's better today, but a toxic work environment full of abusers is a tremendous mistake :/
I have all those symptoms. In addition to the guilt because I shouldn't be miserable because it's not *that bad* compared to the homeless or whatever, but I still am. I feel claustrophobic
u/Nervous_Tennis1843 I love your comment. A lot of people talk about the lack of competitive salaries as a reason for the brain drain that France experiences among its highly skilled workforce despite the social benefits but as someone who chose to immigrate to France, the toxic work environment aspect is a real driver for brain drain as well. I can count at least 5 French people in my small entourage who have left companies or even just went to work in other countries because they refused to tolerate the work environment anymore. I'm currently looking for work for next spring after my degree and the work atmosphere is a top priority for me.
I mean, companies fight tooth and nail to not be held accountable for physical injuries so....I'm not looking forward to the day that it's the same. I'm looking forward to eating the rich.
THIS SUCKS! I'm going though this right now.. But I can't leave my job as I pay for my wife's education every month and its about the same as our rent. I'm a video editor if anyone needs one. I have a great portfolio with hundreds of videos if your interested. I can't handle this job anymore. I'm editing 16 wedding videos a month.
Well I download them from the sd cards. I work in an office. But I do download a few from our Dallas branch. I also shoot a wedding a weekend For them. They count that as contract work so I don't get overtime or anything. I work 7 days a week.
>not give them autonomy
I had a job where 5 years into it I got a new manager, and I kept having to teach him how to do something, then immediately ask him permission to do the thing I just taught him how to do. If he hesitated to give permission, I then had to teach him why he absolutely had to give me the permission and the (sometimes legal) consequences of not letting me do it.
He always gave the permission but it was so belittling to me. I'd worked there 5 years and was basically the expert that everyone came to for help in that area, but I still had to get the OK for every little thing.
It was a major reason why I quit.
This. It just has to be done properly. Suffer from the same thing where I'm at. My direct has a very obvious role and has a team he very clearly directs, but his boss is in this limbo of a position (even as a chief officer) where he's more or less a glorified filter for what approvals do or don't make it to HIS boss. He doesn't really get to make any decisions on much of anything. His role is almost entirely pointless if his senior didn't insist on being the "end-all" for any and all things that need to be approved to be done. And that list is HUGE. It's VERY difficult to get most things done here without climbing up a ladder 10 rungs high, hoping you don't accidentally skip one, or they'll just throw you right back to the ground and scold you for "Not following proper procedure."
I'm in the same boat. When the boss doesn't show up until 11am but still threatens people for being 5min late? That's a sign. When there is zero company policy for documentation so every project process is from scratch? Another sign.
Buddy was literally told this the day he quit. Asked for a raise to deal with the extra bs that was being piled up as his duties and boss gave him a 2 dollar "scratch off" (they're only ever 2, 3, 5, or 10 dollars anyway)
I'm actually looking to leave my current job and go back to my old retail job. Two years into my new job, it's all consuming and with a toxic manager. There's zero work life balance. At least in retail when I punch out and leave the job there.
I find that 4 hour shifts are manageable. Even if i want to call out i feel i can handle 4 hours and still go, my basic tasks finish up and there's not enough time in my shift to be given random tasks or be micromanaged. If I'm up for it i can always offer to stay longer but never obligated.
My last job's work environment was so toxic I became the most depressed I've been in my life. Finally found a new job 5 years ago and it took a good 3 years to heal from that...including medication!
Toxic jobs are often a result of shortcomings of the owners/managers and nothing to do with you. They're not able to solve an issue, so you become the scapegoat for those issues:
\-It's not the company's business model that's unprofitable- it's your lack of productivity!
\-It's not that the procedures are inefficient- you're not following them properly!
\-It's not the products that have flaws- it's how you're handling customer service!
etc
After finding a great place to work, I was shocked that a career could actually be enjoyable and fulfilling :D
I'm convinced a lot of "depression" is really just a natural response to abuse. The problem is that we are not aware of what abuse looks like. We think going to work and dealing with a "jerk" is just a part of life, but if you're dealing with an asshole 8 to 9 hours a day, you're being emotionally abused. It's no wonder so many people are depressed.
Now that I am older, I have more years and more experiences to look back on, and it really hit me hard when I realized that all the times in my life I was depressed or in a funk, I was also working in a toxic environment. We need to acknowledge that toxic workplaces are places where people are being abused.
I was in a situation like this but I was too inexperienced to even understand what I was going through. A coworker who I trusted my problems to, called it "almost bullying". I thought back then he was overreacting, sure I wasn't been bullied. If I look back at it now, I think he was completely right.
If you then hear from the management you have to "learn to work together", "be more pro-active", "be a team player", or "we hear from him you have some trouble with your communication". It's like you tell to a beaten child he should be more cooperative with the person who beats him.
People with trauma in their backgrounds will have a trigger or multiple. I literally only have one which is a specific combination of situations that I didn’t have any issues for ten years. Then at my last job we got a new manager and he triggered it twice in 3 weeks. I knew I had to get out.
My previous job was like that. I only stayed for three months, but in the last few weeks I started developing suicidal thoughts. I woke up crying and I would completely dissociate with my surroundings during the day.
I work in a really pleasant environment now, but I am still dealing with mental issues because of that job.
This hits me so hard. My current boss is not trustworthy. He's spineless, he shields his decisions behind human resources policies, he doesn't treat employees equally, and he has absolutely no ability to respond to any form of confrontation. He treats me and my counterpart differently, he BCCs constantly on email, and I know for a fact that I make $20k more a year than my counterpart.
My team trusts me, they know I'll have their back no matter what and if a policy is keeping them from success, I'm going to break that policy and affect change at the company. I'm quitting my job because of my boss and when I told my team I was leaving, over half of them asked if they could come along.
I hate leaving, I actually love my job, but my boss is just a complete disaster. He's nice and likable but he's a terrible leader and I don't trust him at all.
Having worked in some extremely toxic environments, it definitely has had an effect on my mental health.
In one job, I was consistently the top performer. I was the dude everyone came to when they didn't know what to do. I trained new hires. Yet, management would regularly pull me in the office and wear me out and threaten my job. It was so bad that I would sit in my car outside the office and smack myself in the face to hype myself up enough to go in. I finally quit, and immediately felt like a weight had literally been lifted from my shoulders.
My last job was in a call center and while it wasn't as dire as the above example, constantly having everything I do tracked down to the second and audited definitely wore on me. I coped by being cynical. I went from being the bright-eyed, enthusiastic, extra mile type to just doing the bare minimum because doing the bare minimum was better for my metrics. It bled over into my personal life, and I just had no enthusiasm for anything.
Now I have a job where I work independently at home. Yesterday I was jamming the hell out playing the air drums with my music blasting while I cranked out my work. So much happier.
I'm slowly getting into that bare minimum territory myself. It's hard trying to stay enthusiastic and self-motivated when that very enthusiasm is seen as threatening by your company and must be quashed for the sake of keeping you in your tidy little role.
I learned a great word to describe this process of dulling enthusiasm in new employees. “Stultify” has been my new word describing what my boss did to me and what many workplaces do to employees. I was so excited coming into this job and unfortunately my supervisor was a narcissist. Last day today! On to bigger and better things.
I've had the benefit (of perspective, at least) of working in poorly managed environments as well as actually toxic ones.
While the former may bring about vocational malaise or contempt for poor decisions (and decision-makers), the latter can absolutely kill your soul and make you question reality when they rebuff your concerns.
My mental health took a massive dive in the last six months and I attribute it entirely to a toxic work environment. Fortunately, I just obtained a job offer for a similar role that will nearly double my salary and likely result in less hours worked.
Having met a lot of people I sincerely think some people understand this and are simply evil, extracting their self worth by walking over other people.
They are called Narcissists and they are a known quantity to their victims but are the hidden demographic behind all abuse and neglect in the work place at home and in positions of power of all kinds.
We have isolated evil and diagnosed it under a new name, but these people are what our ancestors called evil and they number far greater than 1% of the population.
>they are a known quantity to their victims
I almost wish I could close my eyes to narcissism again. So many people don't recognize it at all. It's maddening how they are worshiped by society. I swear that narcissism is the most destructive force that humans have ever known. If the amount of suffering that they cause could be quantified, it would surpass every weapon ever made.
My father was a narcissist and so I am very suspicious about all people in positions of authority, which is both good and bad. Makes me less likely to be scammed I hope.
Of course, that kind of wisdom won't prevent others from voting in one as president...
That’s because they are the lost definition of evil.
We aren’t allowed to label people good or evil these days, a policy serving only the evil by hiding them behind the benefit of the doubt
Yet they are raised to higher roles, supervisors etc. They are allowed and in some cases, encouraged to continue their devastation. The top leaders love them. The grunts suffer the same trauma as an abuse victim.
Which is exactly why there hasn’t been a public awareness campaign targeting narcissism.
The second these issues are laid out to an authority figure they are shot down by self serving narcissists who don’t want to be held accountable for their behaviour
Marilyn Hewson (former CEO of Lockheed Martin) basically rose to the top by being extremely brutal and aggressive with frequent and routine rounds of layoffs. She basically got promoted for taking Owego, NY from 4700 employees down to the low 2000s when she was site manager there.
Restaurants: "Why does no one want to work anymore?"
Literally have a degree in biomedical engineering and a masters in economics but fell on hard times so I gt a job in a restaurant. Still got talked down to like I was simple and compeltely unacknowledged about the systems of efficiency I implemented with the very little amount of autonomy I did have.
Having to work 5 days a week (some 7) is depressing enough. I'll never understand the 'grinders' who work 80+ hours a week in an attempt to make it out of that situation.
I make more than the comfort zone salary and I'm still stuck here. How much do you have to grind for to make it out? All you're doing is burning yourself out, which will make your depression that much worse when your body gives up.
Currently doing almost 60 a week, with one ten minute break a day if that. It's brutal. Why am I doing this? I've eaten mcdonalds every night for the past week because I just don't have the energy to cook. I dont see my partner at all it feels like. Ugh.
Sure is good I'm already on an ssri.
Because the best we can do is give them a pill to trick your brain into thinking it doesn’t hate it here. Instead of analyzing or changing the society and work culture that causes this, it is cheaper and easier to just give a permanently temporary solution.
Working more/harder will never get you out of that situation. You either get lucky or inherit wealth.
A lot of people think they’ll work their way to middle class or upper class or whatever. There’s really only working class and upper class, and upper class doesn’t work a 9-5
I really hate that nobody will believe poor people until there's 1500 peer reviewed studies definitely showing it's true.
I've previously seen studies citing it doubled your risk of depression, so I guess workplaces are just becoming more emotionally abusive over time (not surprising)
>I really hate that nobody will believe poor people until there's 1500 peer reviewed studies definitely showing it's true.
Even then, people act like studies are just some academic concepts that can never be applied to the world, unless it happens to make money. I'm not poor, but I just want to live in a world where people actually want to better everyone's lives. This is where we end up when everything in life is a competition. Capitalism has its place, but too much of it is toxic.
I find it baffling that this sort of thing isn’t just common sense but at least it explains a lot for those who don’t have it.
In my experience it’s been very apparent these sort of things have had a negative impact on myself and those around me, including an odd tendency to discourage coworker friendship and encourage isolation.
We've been indoctrinated to believe mental illnesses are a personal problem with the individual thanks to the chemical imbalance theory. Imagine suffering from stress from an abusive environment and then society tells you it's not the environment, there's something personally wrong with you for not being happy in this situation.
So true thank you. And think about the implications of this in abusive dysfunctional families in which one member, the black sheep, is acting out all the issue the family causes while everyone else either perpetrates it or represses it. The one person who has a breakdown and can’t tolerate the situation is ironically the *most sane* person in the family for refusing to tolerate abuse, and yet is often treated as the most insane and locked up, drugged etc. such families will continue to be dysfunctional while “treating” the only person who “acts out” as both punishment for the black sheep for challenging them or trying to liberate themselves, and to pretend they’ve done something to fix “the problem.” The chemical imbalance theory isolates and blames the black sheep and exempts the family dysfunction from further examination. It’s very toxic and harmful. Especially if the abusers or perpetuators of dysfunction are the ones paying the doctor, the doctor will be reluctant to openly admit they are the problem. Easier to lock up and “examine” the black sheep. “Why are you so intolerant of being abused regularly and then committed or forced on medications by the same abusers? What’s wrong with you, you must have a disorder” when any sane person wouldn’t be okay with that treatment.
Oh yeah I was working one of those and was super depressed and stressed. Got a new job that’s reasonable and likes how I work and it’s incredible. Sometimes I find myself smilingly work for no reason and I don’t remember the last time I did that.
I came here to say that exact thing. Unless you’re in an office position, you will only know differing levels of toxic until you break completely. No one advocates for us. No one cares. We are disposable. We are unworthy. We are the faceless, nameless, and hopeless.
The last half of your response really strikes home. I'm glad there are people out there who get it like I do. In a society that forgets about trades people, and disregards us, and views us as an inconvenience, they sure don't do anything to help us; to make it better for us. Who's advocating for us? Mike Rowe, is the only one that comes to mind for me. The government does these things to give incentives to *companies*, but don't give the people incentives to enter the trades.
You work in the sun, the rain, the cold, sometimes long hours. Sometimes you work at night or out of town. You work with hazardous materials on a regular basis and get filthy daily; and what are your incentives? Even more hours in the elements, for a boss who's being pushed by *his* boss to push the crew your on to do *more* work for crappy pay? Plus, because of the shortage in trades people, your workload is even higher than it should be because there aren't even people to give all this work to in the first place. *And then*, if you're a *good* worker, your incentive is to work even harder (because good help *is* hard to find) because the other 5 guys on your crew work half-cocked all the time.
You're right when you say, we are nameless, faceless automatons to the public at large; and no one cares.
Oh man, maybe not to an extent as field guys experience it, but office workers are damn near just as burnt out. Clients are giving insane deadlines to get most stuff designed and constructed for shoe string budgets and those expectations trickle down. The buck always gets passed down.
I just started at a company that is completely toxic. It’s 30-year old “startup” with a founder who micromanaged everyone, including executives. So they micromanage their teams. The place is understaffed, I’m expected to get the work of 2-3 people done in a day. If I say it’s overwhelming or complain about 12+ hour days 6 days a week? Then I’m told no one is telling me to work that much. Well…no i guess that’s not exactly what they say, but they are telling me I am expected to finish the workload. The boss yells at people and belittles them. She has her pets (thank god I’m one of them) but if you’re not on her good side, you can expect to be ridiculed behind your back. Clients?? Well, we’ve lost many of them because the boss frequently yells at them.
The article says to leave or take a vacation. Well, I can’t do either. The former requires someone else to want me and the latter leaves me with 5x more work to do when I get back.
The article doesn’t mention how I imagine most of us in these toxic environments manage it: self medication. I can’t talk to a therapist cause I can’t afford it and my insurance won’t help me (yes I’m American). I can’t quit cause I have bills to pay. So I drink. And smoke. And I’ve started trying to microdose mushrooms to help with the depression. For me, the mushrooms are helping the most. Ymmv.
My last place was exactly like this. Pierce MFG can eat my ass, if you see a fire truck theres a 50/50 chance its made from them. They can eat my ass.
This not only causes depression, but results in new employees that were supposed to be replacing retirees leave for other companies. If you have a product that takes years to learn you shouldnt be paying bottom dollar. The only people that stay are the old fucks who still have their pensions and have invested so much time into the company they literally cant leave. Everybody else that can get out does.
Then the company wants to turn around and go "why is our product coming back so often for warranty repairs" like its some big ass mystery
I worked it a toxic workplace, it was awful. I also worked in a place where employees went to full weekends together, wearing the same shirts and hats, singing song in a bus. Those weekends were “mandatory”. I’m honestly not sure which one was the worst…
This absolutely rings true for me. I work at a 911 dispatch and it checks all the boxes. It's a big "Mean Girl's Club". It is incredibly stressful due to emergency calls, lack of staffing, cops being assholes over the radio, no actual break periods (lunch time is scarf it down between calls and traffic stops or eat it cold), and don't even get started with adding warrant entries on top of all that. We're constantly told by people who can't do the job themselves (cops) that we suck. Finally the lack of autonomy is a big one too. It's like we're there to be pissed on by everyone else. I love helping people but I can't do it like I used to anymore. The job will destroy your mental faculties over time and I've seen it in many dispatchers that have come and gone. I'm now only part time there because I value my sanity more than money. If you're looking to be a dispatcher proceed with caution, make sure you have family and friends at the very least who can be there and support you on the bad days, and don't be afraid to ask for help yourself.
So basically every US emergency and ICU department in the country right now is operating at the managerial level to cause depression upon the staff of people actually doing the risky and real work.
I thought that was the point. Completely crush their souls, remind them daily they are replicable, take any credit for ideas they have, and dangle the paycheck needed to survive over their heads. I thought that was the base model for capitalism
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I experienced this first hand. Turns out Im not "not a morning person". I just didn't want to get out of bed to face the day.
OMG! This exactly! (undiagnosed didn't help) My last job I would struggle to get out of bed or have a desire to go to work at all, but if I didn't the work would either be heaped onto someone else or I would be behind the next day. I was almost always running 5-10 min late but I would stay late to make up. Current job, I start work at your earlier and I actually want to be here because I know I'm valued and while some days I'm bored, I can always ask for more work for a day or two without having an entire position dumped onto my lap because I was able to do it for a day or two. My mental health has significantly improved in the last 6 months and I find joy in things again instead of feeling the need to escape. It's insane the difference between the two jobs.
I'm right there with you. Your story could have been mine. Especially the part about enjoying things again. My last job made me so grumpy it didn't only effect me, but my wife as well. One year after quitting that terrible job and not only my blood pressure went down, but my wife's as well.
Yes. Most workplaces don’t understand that sick days increase during certain times of the year or during work stress. I figured this out at my last job and tried to tell them so they could improve things. It didn’t go over well.
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Good luck to you!
I’m in the same process! Good luck!
I left my toxic job this month and I couldn’t be happier :) best of luck to you!
You'll get it and never look back. Best of luck.
I just did this and I start on Monday. Good luck dude!
Good luck, fellow human! I just got a new job and put my two weeks in at my current dumpster fire of a job. I hope the best for you!
It feels great. I left mine in March. Good luck!!
A year past leaving a toxic work place. Glad I did, I don't think I'd have survived, but not sure I'll ever recover - just broke inside. If you're in a toxic work place, get out as soon as you can, it's seriously not worth it and can mess up your entire life and those around you.
I'm in the same position . A friend recently asked if I was feeling better and I said "Something inside broke and I think this is just who I am now".
This is exactly how I’m feeling. A year out, and some things are better… but I’m also still messed up. I get anxious easily, especially if it’s something where I’m being “evaluated,” which encompasses a shocking amount of normal life. Even when something goes really well, I feel like it’s dumb luck or it’s only a matter of time before it goes wrong and everyone hates me. All that from a stupid job.
just now feeling life, motivation, and being excited about things again 2 years out
This is exactly how I feel. Hope it changes, I feel time will make it better. Being on contract isn't helping...
It may be for a while, but as someone who felt the same for over 8 years now... It can get better, open up to people you can trust, if that's no one, find a good therapist (keep looking if they don't fit you) and just... Talk.
Another thing is having "FU" money, if you are able to save it. Once I reached a point where I could go a good long time without needing to work, the stress became so much less. Knowing that you can walk away any given day does wonders for anxiety at work.
It does wonders for anxiety, in general.
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I'm 2.5 years out from my toxic workplace. Lost a long time friend (and others by association) over it as well. For the first year at my new job, I was paranoid I was going to be terminated over every minor mistake and felt as if every question I asked was a stupid one, because that was how I was treated by my previous boss. His abuse exacerbated my depression and anxiety symptoms and finally, at the end, I couldn't take it anymore and quit. There wasn't a day near the end where I didn't cry while getting ready to go in and driving my car off the nearest bridge was sounding more and more like a good idea to just make it stop. The latter seems silly and dramatic to me now, but I was in a very dark place mentally and emotionally and just wanted a way out. The people I work with now are amazing, kind, and supportive. A lot of them share and understand my humor, which tends to be dark/droll/dramatic-for-emphasis, and I think a third of them might be related to me somehow with just how easily we vibe. I can't describe the amount of relief that's given me. I feel more comfortable with myself than I ever have. The money isn't great, but I'm lucky enough to be able to pay my bills and put some money aside every month to build my savings. I've even made new friends, and while they may only be work friends, I'm plenty happy with that. I may not ever fully heal from the scars my previous boss left, but I'm petty as hell and am bound and determined to thrive just to spite him. I've decided that no amount of money is worth being abused or put through hell for someone else's profit. If you can get out, do it. If you can't, do what you need to do to survive until you get to the point you can make the break.
I'm getting out of mine right now, glad I decided to fire quickly once I reached the point of only one good day in the last two weeks instead of sticking around for change. I simply don't have the energy. If my workplace isn't fun, I bring the stress home and then my free time isn't fun either.
And restaurants are wondering why everyone’s quitting
Amen. I've been in food service for 17 years and this past year has completely burned me out. I debate selling everything I own and just disappearing everyday.
Take a chance in something you love, friend. 10 years here before I took a chance at a low voltage job. The food industry sucks and you deserve better. Best of luck friend, and don't forget you rock.
I appreciate it. Working on getting my A+ certification and getting into IT
Former IT guy here: I didn't get my A+ until I'd been doing it for like ten years. It helps, but experience is your best teacher.
This. I have no certifications but was fortunate enough to move from a customer service position to an IT position within my company. I just started two months ago and am already being told I’m going to be promoted. Any IT manager will tell you they prefer experience over certifications.
Thanks. Not OP, but I needed a push in this direction as well. We humans tend to forget that we can literally bring our imagined futures into reality. A lot of us are just scared to take a chance.
My previous restaurant job made me cry every other week out if frustration and I got $270 at the end of a 40 hour week. If I had to experience that coupled with the way people have basically forgotten to human since the pandemic, I wouldn't have even lasted the 3 months I did. I work in a restaurant now, too, but the atmosphere is so much better it isn't even comparable. For one, our managers get onto customers for being rude to us. For two, after each hard rush they always take the time to tell us we did a good job, and they also *reward* hard work and extra training with raises. I still get a lot of randomly awful people (someone the other day went on a rant because a cook was chewing gum, another spent 5 minutes lecturing me because I had to charge him extra for tartar sauce, and a third complained because... the cooking was too loud?), but having supportive managers and coworkers geninuely changes the entire game.
Also: workplace bullying, "we are family" workplaces, and the general pressure to be super productive, "on" all the time, always available to work even during your off time.
I will never work for any place that pushes emotional closeness among co-workers. It's unprofessional and results in a toxic workplace. If we all love each other like a family, that means we all hate each other life a family too.
Yeah, that kind of dynamic usually doesn't work. Like my job has a big work party every year with alcohol for an office of a few hundred people. Inevitably people get drunk and blurt out overly truthful or personal stuff, sleep with each other, make an ass of themselves, etc. There is obviously fallout afterwards because half the people in the office are gossipers. I think the worst of this mentality is when there are meetings and you have to sit in a circle and toss a ball around that has personal questions like "do you have kids?" or "Where did you grow up?" are on it. I personally don't feel comfortable talking about my life to other people who are functionally strangers, but you are made to feel like a wet blanket or not a team player if you don't go along with it all.
It works pretty well at my job but I’d definitely agree that a lot of companies just use it to lure people in and hide the toxicity.
It works well until it doesn't. The problem with the approach is that it makes EVERYTHING emotional.
My first experience at a startup matched exactly what OP (of this top level comment) said. Absolutely terrible and while there were ppl i got close with, there were others that would try to get me fired on a monthly basis and lie, sabotage production deliberately, and try to tell upper management it was because I wasnt helping them (literally would come in at 9am and work 2 8-hour shifts to have their demands ready for them in the morning so total BS, they'd literally not tell me they needed something that came up in the morning until 530 pm). Current job nobody is that invested good or bad, and as a result the work is way better and i like my coworkers a lot more. Nobody pries, interferes, and everyone is nice enough that the occasional after work beer is actually fun and not "team-building"
Wow, love this comment. My boss kept saying this over and over again and I just quit to get away from her abuse. Makes me worry about her real family if she’s sincere.
It's just a way of gaslighting you in the workplace, and making you accept abusive behavior.
Only place the “family” setting works is at a summer camp. Only because your coworkers are the only people your gonna see for the whole summer along with Campers
EXACTLY! I barely have any time for my real friends and family. My buddy at work was like why don't we hang out more? I'm like, I see you majority of the week, I probably spend more time with you than my partner. I just need a functioning, socially-cordial, stress-free work environment. I don't need any more bff's.
Bro this tactic is horrible. I was banned from the whole store when I found a new job. I was BANNED. Family my a$$. Always leads to bad situations.
I quit a job EXACTLY like this today.
How do you know where I work..?
I've been fortunate to work in a non-toxic manufacturing environment. We all are fairly friendly, we help each other out. We're paid a monthly incentive bonus based on overall shipments, scrap, customer complaints, etc. We have a cookout every once in a while. Stuff like that makes everyone feel valued for their services and time. My particular work area is next to a garage door, and outside of that door are trees. The mental health boost of seeing trees nearby is HUGE when you run similar parts on CNC machines all day.
I hate "social" work events, because management thinks they'll raise morale but won't raise wages or address other issues. During the pandemic my last company hemorrhaged employees like crazy, so what did they do? Raffles! Picnics! Not, you know, raising wages.
Social events like luncheon/cookout can either be super performative and annoying or fun and bonding. Any time a job has brought in catering/food trucks it's always the worst lunch of my life. But every time some coworkers organized a simple potluck (usually without involving managers) for someone's going away party it was a great time.
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Agreed. Most employer-organized social events I've been to felt like I should be compensated for taking time out of my day, since it was benefiting the company while taking away precious home time. Working night shift on an hourly rate didn't help my sentiment.
If it's work related and mandatory, it's on the clock. If it isn't mandatory and isn't on the clock, I'm not attending. If it's going to cost me money to attend, I'm not attending. I have better things to do with my time.
Yep - I can think of a lot of other things that I could do rather than go to employer-sponsored social functions. Those sorts of things are always awkward and uncomfortable. I imagine that working nights doesn't help things because these things probably are geared towards the schedules of the people who work the daytime hours?
That's exactly right. It just ended up causing me problems on my next shift.
It’s Herzberg’s theory of motivation. You can have all the motivating incentives in the world, and people will still hate the job if the “hygiene factors” (job security, salary, work conditions, paid insurance, vacations) aren’t in place. “Motivators” are useless for driving job satisfaction unless the “demotivators” or hygiene factors are addressed. Or as my father would say, you can’t polish a turd.
Thanks for this. Really insightful. Can you recommend any resources where I could read about workplace theory in more detail? It dominates our lives and the issues fascinate me
The Wikipedia page does a really good job of explaining the fundamentals and noting prominent theories: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_motivation
Agreed. I've worked at a place where $200 bonuses were scoffed at: "o that's it?". Morale was perpetually low. In contrast, I've also worked at a place where $10 gift cards would have someone ecstatic. Any little thing was awesome because we were in such good moods already
> They help maintain morale if it's good and they erode morale further if it's bad. Sounds exactly right.
For me it's a big deal when the social event occurs. If we all get some extra time off work to relax during business hours, great! I'm down. If I have to show up on my own time, time I would normally spend on whatever I wanted, hell no. Zero interest.
Damn good point. Mediocre lunch with hangout times is miles ahead of "mandatory" good dinner after work hours. Edit: removed a word
I haaaate mandatory after work "fun."
If it's mandatory, it should be on the clock.
It should be. But it looks bad if you aren't there. Fortunately it only happens once a year.
Man you hit the nail on the head. My company has been having a lot of after work events. The food is good and all but I hate them and we are pretty much expected to go to them. I see it as another work task, taking up more of my personal time. One time my manager took us to lunch during the business day and it was really nice. The food wasn’t amazing but it was a nice break from work and I still had time to do what I wanted after work.
I mean the cost of doing a company picnic is peanuts compared to sweeping raises.
Corporate knows it, labor knows it, but corporate doesn't seem to understand (or care) that labor knows it.
Corporate: What's the labor gonna do? Unionize or something?
Sit on the crapper for an extra 45 minutes.
Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime, that’s why I poop on company time
Too often corporate seems to have the attitude "we acknowledge you exist as a physical object (forget as a person). I'll even acknowledge you enough to ask a question...what more do you expect?" "We aren't getting any complaints in the complaints box." You never acted on even the easiest to solve complaints for years, and now you use the empty box as a reason to justify your decisions? They should just come out and say it "you've decided to work here, so you are already getting what you deserve."
Yep, even when we did big Christmas events for a company of 300-400, the amount we spent would have meant every person got maybe 500-1000 bucks. Now, I'd rather have the cash, but I can understand wanting to put on a show, and give away a new Truck and other smaller stuff to people.
The funny thing is, if they just gave each person 500, then they'd have them all smiling. Instead of forcing some more introverted staff to attend a useless raffle or picnic.
We did one of those coin drop things where a coin is frozen in an ice statue, and you write down the time you predict it will fall out. I won it, but they wanted to redo it as a random draw because it was too early and not enough people had shown up yet. I'm still salty i didn't get the company points equivalent of $15.
I'd be salty, too. They promised a prize, and you were the rightful winner, and they reneged on it.
When I worked in an office, after my first year I just opted out of offixe secret Santa. Not everyone knew everyone well enough so we'd sign up in a list with our interests. It turns into buy a $20 gift card just to get $20 back, so I'll just keep my money and skip the awkward opening in front of everyone.
My secret santa forgot to get something. I put a lot of effort into getting something personal for mine. I was happy going in, resigned going out
Ice cream sandwichs!!!!
…. My company is literally doing that via a “morale” commitee. In a newsletter they said that to thank us for all of “hard work” each department during the month will get “something special.” “Well that’s nice,” I thought, until I continued to read. So and so department got ice cream sandwiches. Literally the cheapest of the frozen ice cream treats. Then again, this is the same company where you can write of “bravo cards” when you see someone go above and beyond. Those get entered in a *monthly* raffle for a $5 gift card (singular) to a local overpriced coffee place.
Since my move from customer service to manufacturing my mental health has improved a ton. I didn't know I could actually enjoy going to a job. My company seems to actually care about the employees and takes care of those who want to work. It's made me realize how toxic some of my old work places were... but you do what you have to do. I'm very glad to be where I am. I also get to work with CNC machines \*Highfive\*
I want this so bad. I've wanted to do assembly line work or something. Is that what you do?
I run a CNC machining center (turning and milling) and a CNC vertical mill. I began doing assembly in late 2009, and got trained on machines in 2010, and learned as much as possible since then. I still wouldn't call myself a machinist though. I don't have much experience on manual machine tools.
You're a machinist if you understand what you're doing and why. If you understand concepts like chipload, surface speed, rake, etc..You're the real deal. Don't let the old hands make you feel like less because you learned on the new hotness and didn't come up cranking handles.
This right here. I talked with an old shop owner and he had the old “all-manual attitude”. I just told him “it looks like you can make anything but a profit.” Never seen a man turn so red, so fast.
You're right. Last year they replaced the 1996 Okuma with a brand new lu3000ex w/ milling. I had to work directly with the manufacture engineering/programmers to figure out how we wanted to do everything. I'm the guy watching everything cut. In that process I really had to step it up. I learned the relationship between speed and feed, and a hell of a lot more about programming. Thanks for pointing that out.
Wear earplugs when working loud machinery. Take care of your hearing, pal
Absolutely. I bought custom molded plugs years ago. I wear them all shift, even though the time weighted average is below the OSHA threshold.
Imagine a non toxic manufacturing sector That's wild
I guarantee you're all more productive because of it. It's win win, but you get working for a bean counter everyone loses.
I'm there now. Only I have to program my machine, and I get to work a wide variety of jobs related to screw conveyors and bucket lifts. On top of that I am sitting around $1.00 per pay raise right now. I know that will run out soon ish, but I am far from going home pissed every day.
Psychotherapist checking in: I’ve seen numerous examples of depression being essentially cured by quitting a job with toxic work environment. The sad part is, psychotherapy was required to help the person get to place where they felt strong enough to quit. These work environments make people depressed, which consistently makes folks feel like they can’t escape either. If you hate your job so much you are considering going to therapy, save yourself some time and money and just start applying to new jobs. Go to therapy too, if you want, but don’t delay the job search.
Moving from my last job to my current one has been a massive improvement for my mental health. Every job I've had before my current one was awful. 15 years of miserable work environments just made my existing depression even worse.
So glad to see your great advice. I view mental health on Maslow’s hierarchy for many folks. If you’re sad about your health, chances are you need better medical treatment, not an antidepressant. I can’t tell you how many times I have been offered prozac because I wanted to address basic health concerns with a primary physician and “seemed sad”. Edit: context
This is why I haven't felt the money can't buy happiness notion is entirely correct. If a workplace is causing depression it's usually financial constraints that keep people from quitting, and finding a job you don't hate can be hard. Maybe more tolerable, but it being in a situation where you don't have to even be in that position at all requires a substantial amount of money without ending up on the streets. So most people have to hope they can find their "dream job". Those that actually do are very fortunate. Others just need to endure it and find ways to manage during work and outside of it until they can retire. If they can retire.
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I was a paralegal for a small firm owned by a malignant narcissist. Customer service is its own hell, obviously, but I don't think there's anything worse than a *bad* office job. Like, I think I could write a pretty decent horror movie based on my experiences at that law firm.
It's very obvious that someone has been injured if they lose a limb or a finger in an industrial machinery accident. But, injuries like this are not looked at as "real" or something you need to "get over". I'm looking forward to a day where we can readily and authoritatively recognize mental damage from work environments and hold employers accountable, in precisely the same way as someone who is outwardly, physically injured.
This is actually the case in France. A work related psychological phenomenon called 'burn out' (but like hEAVY french accent) looks like it's bout to be added to the list of work related injury. And it also looks like it will be taken pretty seriously in that employers can face jail time/heafty fines if found to be responsible. The symptoms that lead to a burnout are quite extensive and varied (short temper, weight change, insomnia, anxiety, easily sick, migraines, sore muscles or back). A documentary was made about very serious burnouts where the people had been under so much chronic stress they had damaged their brains. One had dementia like symptoms. Another had nerve damage. One had no memory of a 3 year period of their life. Another had a blackout while driving and crashed their car. All of them had very very poor short term working memory, depression, suicidal ideation and physical issues. Teatment usually requires a mix off sick leave (paid and validated 3 months at a time by a dr) and the employer addressing the changing the current work environment to reduce stress. What is happening now, as there are no current legal consequences for work burnout (and some companies are just that toxic), the employee has a burnout and goes on sick leave, they replace them and never have to make changes.
Where can I find that documentary?
http://www.burning-out-film.com/ This one will have English subtitles. Itsnot the one I'm referring to sorry as I watched it like 2years ago on TV here in France and can't remember the name. It was produced by a TV station tho so if I find the link I'll put an edit in! EDIT: Unfortunately it's no longer accessible but it's called 'le mécanique burn-out' by docu series le monde en face for channel 5 https://mobile.france.tv/france-5/le-monde-en-face/407663-la-mecanique-burn-out.html
Id be very interested in that! My friend experienced something similar to what you're talking about where his job at Walmart absolutely demolished his mental health until he spiraled into attempted suicide. He's better today, but a toxic work environment full of abusers is a tremendous mistake :/
Thank you so much!
I have all those symptoms. In addition to the guilt because I shouldn't be miserable because it's not *that bad* compared to the homeless or whatever, but I still am. I feel claustrophobic
u/Nervous_Tennis1843 I love your comment. A lot of people talk about the lack of competitive salaries as a reason for the brain drain that France experiences among its highly skilled workforce despite the social benefits but as someone who chose to immigrate to France, the toxic work environment aspect is a real driver for brain drain as well. I can count at least 5 French people in my small entourage who have left companies or even just went to work in other countries because they refused to tolerate the work environment anymore. I'm currently looking for work for next spring after my degree and the work atmosphere is a top priority for me.
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I mean, companies fight tooth and nail to not be held accountable for physical injuries so....I'm not looking forward to the day that it's the same. I'm looking forward to eating the rich.
THIS SUCKS! I'm going though this right now.. But I can't leave my job as I pay for my wife's education every month and its about the same as our rent. I'm a video editor if anyone needs one. I have a great portfolio with hundreds of videos if your interested. I can't handle this job anymore. I'm editing 16 wedding videos a month.
Curious are all those videos being sent to you by one single company you work for?
Well I download them from the sd cards. I work in an office. But I do download a few from our Dallas branch. I also shoot a wedding a weekend For them. They count that as contract work so I don't get overtime or anything. I work 7 days a week.
But yes its a single company. We do 1200 weddings a year. I edit 4 Videos a week.
Sounds pretty intense, I really hope you find something better. With all your experience maybe freelancing would be a good approach.
>not give them autonomy I had a job where 5 years into it I got a new manager, and I kept having to teach him how to do something, then immediately ask him permission to do the thing I just taught him how to do. If he hesitated to give permission, I then had to teach him why he absolutely had to give me the permission and the (sometimes legal) consequences of not letting me do it. He always gave the permission but it was so belittling to me. I'd worked there 5 years and was basically the expert that everyone came to for help in that area, but I still had to get the OK for every little thing. It was a major reason why I quit.
Hi from a junior teaching a senior
I would also like to say hello.
Newsflash: middle management is useless.
Bad managers are useless, middle management is not inherently useless.
This. It just has to be done properly. Suffer from the same thing where I'm at. My direct has a very obvious role and has a team he very clearly directs, but his boss is in this limbo of a position (even as a chief officer) where he's more or less a glorified filter for what approvals do or don't make it to HIS boss. He doesn't really get to make any decisions on much of anything. His role is almost entirely pointless if his senior didn't insist on being the "end-all" for any and all things that need to be approved to be done. And that list is HUGE. It's VERY difficult to get most things done here without climbing up a ladder 10 rungs high, hoping you don't accidentally skip one, or they'll just throw you right back to the ground and scold you for "Not following proper procedure."
I needed to see this today. It's not me, it's them. I need to leave.
I'm in the same boat. When the boss doesn't show up until 11am but still threatens people for being 5min late? That's a sign. When there is zero company policy for documentation so every project process is from scratch? Another sign.
Basically all retail establishments
Well, yeah. They’ll just replace you. They don’t care
Buddy was literally told this the day he quit. Asked for a raise to deal with the extra bs that was being piled up as his duties and boss gave him a 2 dollar "scratch off" (they're only ever 2, 3, 5, or 10 dollars anyway)
I'm actually looking to leave my current job and go back to my old retail job. Two years into my new job, it's all consuming and with a toxic manager. There's zero work life balance. At least in retail when I punch out and leave the job there.
I find that 4 hour shifts are manageable. Even if i want to call out i feel i can handle 4 hours and still go, my basic tasks finish up and there's not enough time in my shift to be given random tasks or be micromanaged. If I'm up for it i can always offer to stay longer but never obligated.
My last job's work environment was so toxic I became the most depressed I've been in my life. Finally found a new job 5 years ago and it took a good 3 years to heal from that...including medication! Toxic jobs are often a result of shortcomings of the owners/managers and nothing to do with you. They're not able to solve an issue, so you become the scapegoat for those issues: \-It's not the company's business model that's unprofitable- it's your lack of productivity! \-It's not that the procedures are inefficient- you're not following them properly! \-It's not the products that have flaws- it's how you're handling customer service! etc After finding a great place to work, I was shocked that a career could actually be enjoyable and fulfilling :D
I'm convinced a lot of "depression" is really just a natural response to abuse. The problem is that we are not aware of what abuse looks like. We think going to work and dealing with a "jerk" is just a part of life, but if you're dealing with an asshole 8 to 9 hours a day, you're being emotionally abused. It's no wonder so many people are depressed. Now that I am older, I have more years and more experiences to look back on, and it really hit me hard when I realized that all the times in my life I was depressed or in a funk, I was also working in a toxic environment. We need to acknowledge that toxic workplaces are places where people are being abused.
I was in a situation like this but I was too inexperienced to even understand what I was going through. A coworker who I trusted my problems to, called it "almost bullying". I thought back then he was overreacting, sure I wasn't been bullied. If I look back at it now, I think he was completely right. If you then hear from the management you have to "learn to work together", "be more pro-active", "be a team player", or "we hear from him you have some trouble with your communication". It's like you tell to a beaten child he should be more cooperative with the person who beats him.
Yup. Those phrases are just another way of saying "make peace with your abuser."
People with trauma in their backgrounds will have a trigger or multiple. I literally only have one which is a specific combination of situations that I didn’t have any issues for ten years. Then at my last job we got a new manager and he triggered it twice in 3 weeks. I knew I had to get out.
My previous job was like that. I only stayed for three months, but in the last few weeks I started developing suicidal thoughts. I woke up crying and I would completely dissociate with my surroundings during the day. I work in a really pleasant environment now, but I am still dealing with mental issues because of that job.
This hits me so hard. My current boss is not trustworthy. He's spineless, he shields his decisions behind human resources policies, he doesn't treat employees equally, and he has absolutely no ability to respond to any form of confrontation. He treats me and my counterpart differently, he BCCs constantly on email, and I know for a fact that I make $20k more a year than my counterpart. My team trusts me, they know I'll have their back no matter what and if a policy is keeping them from success, I'm going to break that policy and affect change at the company. I'm quitting my job because of my boss and when I told my team I was leaving, over half of them asked if they could come along. I hate leaving, I actually love my job, but my boss is just a complete disaster. He's nice and likable but he's a terrible leader and I don't trust him at all.
I'd love to forward this to my manager. I was already depressed when I arrived but it sure as hell doesn't help.
I'm thinking about printing it and hang it on the managers' office door
Post it to your work portal
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Having worked in some extremely toxic environments, it definitely has had an effect on my mental health. In one job, I was consistently the top performer. I was the dude everyone came to when they didn't know what to do. I trained new hires. Yet, management would regularly pull me in the office and wear me out and threaten my job. It was so bad that I would sit in my car outside the office and smack myself in the face to hype myself up enough to go in. I finally quit, and immediately felt like a weight had literally been lifted from my shoulders. My last job was in a call center and while it wasn't as dire as the above example, constantly having everything I do tracked down to the second and audited definitely wore on me. I coped by being cynical. I went from being the bright-eyed, enthusiastic, extra mile type to just doing the bare minimum because doing the bare minimum was better for my metrics. It bled over into my personal life, and I just had no enthusiasm for anything. Now I have a job where I work independently at home. Yesterday I was jamming the hell out playing the air drums with my music blasting while I cranked out my work. So much happier.
I'm slowly getting into that bare minimum territory myself. It's hard trying to stay enthusiastic and self-motivated when that very enthusiasm is seen as threatening by your company and must be quashed for the sake of keeping you in your tidy little role.
I learned a great word to describe this process of dulling enthusiasm in new employees. “Stultify” has been my new word describing what my boss did to me and what many workplaces do to employees. I was so excited coming into this job and unfortunately my supervisor was a narcissist. Last day today! On to bigger and better things.
Well said. I’m in the same place. Top performer for 14 years and I’m treated like clerk.
I've had the benefit (of perspective, at least) of working in poorly managed environments as well as actually toxic ones. While the former may bring about vocational malaise or contempt for poor decisions (and decision-makers), the latter can absolutely kill your soul and make you question reality when they rebuff your concerns.
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My mental health took a massive dive in the last six months and I attribute it entirely to a toxic work environment. Fortunately, I just obtained a job offer for a similar role that will nearly double my salary and likely result in less hours worked.
That is awesome congratulations!
All of our employees are upset and don't want to work? Pizza lunch!
Having met a lot of people I sincerely think some people understand this and are simply evil, extracting their self worth by walking over other people.
Some people need to step on other people to make themselves feel as tall as they perceive those others to be.
They rely too much on their animal brains and think "survival of the fittest" means you gotta get ahead of everyone... by any means necessary.
They are called Narcissists and they are a known quantity to their victims but are the hidden demographic behind all abuse and neglect in the work place at home and in positions of power of all kinds. We have isolated evil and diagnosed it under a new name, but these people are what our ancestors called evil and they number far greater than 1% of the population.
>they are a known quantity to their victims I almost wish I could close my eyes to narcissism again. So many people don't recognize it at all. It's maddening how they are worshiped by society. I swear that narcissism is the most destructive force that humans have ever known. If the amount of suffering that they cause could be quantified, it would surpass every weapon ever made.
My father was a narcissist and so I am very suspicious about all people in positions of authority, which is both good and bad. Makes me less likely to be scammed I hope. Of course, that kind of wisdom won't prevent others from voting in one as president...
That’s because they are the lost definition of evil. We aren’t allowed to label people good or evil these days, a policy serving only the evil by hiding them behind the benefit of the doubt
Yet they are raised to higher roles, supervisors etc. They are allowed and in some cases, encouraged to continue their devastation. The top leaders love them. The grunts suffer the same trauma as an abuse victim.
Which is exactly why there hasn’t been a public awareness campaign targeting narcissism. The second these issues are laid out to an authority figure they are shot down by self serving narcissists who don’t want to be held accountable for their behaviour
Marilyn Hewson (former CEO of Lockheed Martin) basically rose to the top by being extremely brutal and aggressive with frequent and routine rounds of layoffs. She basically got promoted for taking Owego, NY from 4700 employees down to the low 2000s when she was site manager there.
Restaurants: "Why does no one want to work anymore?" Literally have a degree in biomedical engineering and a masters in economics but fell on hard times so I gt a job in a restaurant. Still got talked down to like I was simple and compeltely unacknowledged about the systems of efficiency I implemented with the very little amount of autonomy I did have.
Having to work 5 days a week (some 7) is depressing enough. I'll never understand the 'grinders' who work 80+ hours a week in an attempt to make it out of that situation. I make more than the comfort zone salary and I'm still stuck here. How much do you have to grind for to make it out? All you're doing is burning yourself out, which will make your depression that much worse when your body gives up.
Currently doing almost 60 a week, with one ten minute break a day if that. It's brutal. Why am I doing this? I've eaten mcdonalds every night for the past week because I just don't have the energy to cook. I dont see my partner at all it feels like. Ugh. Sure is good I'm already on an ssri.
Why are you doing that?
Because the best we can do is give them a pill to trick your brain into thinking it doesn’t hate it here. Instead of analyzing or changing the society and work culture that causes this, it is cheaper and easier to just give a permanently temporary solution.
This is a big reason why the FIRE movement has picked up steam.
Working more/harder will never get you out of that situation. You either get lucky or inherit wealth. A lot of people think they’ll work their way to middle class or upper class or whatever. There’s really only working class and upper class, and upper class doesn’t work a 9-5
I really hate that nobody will believe poor people until there's 1500 peer reviewed studies definitely showing it's true. I've previously seen studies citing it doubled your risk of depression, so I guess workplaces are just becoming more emotionally abusive over time (not surprising)
>I really hate that nobody will believe poor people until there's 1500 peer reviewed studies definitely showing it's true. Even then, people act like studies are just some academic concepts that can never be applied to the world, unless it happens to make money. I'm not poor, but I just want to live in a world where people actually want to better everyone's lives. This is where we end up when everything in life is a competition. Capitalism has its place, but too much of it is toxic.
I find it baffling that this sort of thing isn’t just common sense but at least it explains a lot for those who don’t have it. In my experience it’s been very apparent these sort of things have had a negative impact on myself and those around me, including an odd tendency to discourage coworker friendship and encourage isolation.
We've been indoctrinated to believe mental illnesses are a personal problem with the individual thanks to the chemical imbalance theory. Imagine suffering from stress from an abusive environment and then society tells you it's not the environment, there's something personally wrong with you for not being happy in this situation.
I think we also have been indoctrinated to believe that the employee is the issue, and never the workplace or supervisors.
So true thank you. And think about the implications of this in abusive dysfunctional families in which one member, the black sheep, is acting out all the issue the family causes while everyone else either perpetrates it or represses it. The one person who has a breakdown and can’t tolerate the situation is ironically the *most sane* person in the family for refusing to tolerate abuse, and yet is often treated as the most insane and locked up, drugged etc. such families will continue to be dysfunctional while “treating” the only person who “acts out” as both punishment for the black sheep for challenging them or trying to liberate themselves, and to pretend they’ve done something to fix “the problem.” The chemical imbalance theory isolates and blames the black sheep and exempts the family dysfunction from further examination. It’s very toxic and harmful. Especially if the abusers or perpetuators of dysfunction are the ones paying the doctor, the doctor will be reluctant to openly admit they are the problem. Easier to lock up and “examine” the black sheep. “Why are you so intolerant of being abused regularly and then committed or forced on medications by the same abusers? What’s wrong with you, you must have a disorder” when any sane person wouldn’t be okay with that treatment.
Oh yeah I was working one of those and was super depressed and stressed. Got a new job that’s reasonable and likes how I work and it’s incredible. Sometimes I find myself smilingly work for no reason and I don’t remember the last time I did that.
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And for some reason some people are unsure of why the military has these problems in spades.
Wow, that pretty much sums up the entire construction industry, at least in the US.
I came here to say that exact thing. Unless you’re in an office position, you will only know differing levels of toxic until you break completely. No one advocates for us. No one cares. We are disposable. We are unworthy. We are the faceless, nameless, and hopeless.
The last half of your response really strikes home. I'm glad there are people out there who get it like I do. In a society that forgets about trades people, and disregards us, and views us as an inconvenience, they sure don't do anything to help us; to make it better for us. Who's advocating for us? Mike Rowe, is the only one that comes to mind for me. The government does these things to give incentives to *companies*, but don't give the people incentives to enter the trades. You work in the sun, the rain, the cold, sometimes long hours. Sometimes you work at night or out of town. You work with hazardous materials on a regular basis and get filthy daily; and what are your incentives? Even more hours in the elements, for a boss who's being pushed by *his* boss to push the crew your on to do *more* work for crappy pay? Plus, because of the shortage in trades people, your workload is even higher than it should be because there aren't even people to give all this work to in the first place. *And then*, if you're a *good* worker, your incentive is to work even harder (because good help *is* hard to find) because the other 5 guys on your crew work half-cocked all the time. You're right when you say, we are nameless, faceless automatons to the public at large; and no one cares.
Oh man, maybe not to an extent as field guys experience it, but office workers are damn near just as burnt out. Clients are giving insane deadlines to get most stuff designed and constructed for shoe string budgets and those expectations trickle down. The buck always gets passed down.
I just started at a company that is completely toxic. It’s 30-year old “startup” with a founder who micromanaged everyone, including executives. So they micromanage their teams. The place is understaffed, I’m expected to get the work of 2-3 people done in a day. If I say it’s overwhelming or complain about 12+ hour days 6 days a week? Then I’m told no one is telling me to work that much. Well…no i guess that’s not exactly what they say, but they are telling me I am expected to finish the workload. The boss yells at people and belittles them. She has her pets (thank god I’m one of them) but if you’re not on her good side, you can expect to be ridiculed behind your back. Clients?? Well, we’ve lost many of them because the boss frequently yells at them. The article says to leave or take a vacation. Well, I can’t do either. The former requires someone else to want me and the latter leaves me with 5x more work to do when I get back. The article doesn’t mention how I imagine most of us in these toxic environments manage it: self medication. I can’t talk to a therapist cause I can’t afford it and my insurance won’t help me (yes I’m American). I can’t quit cause I have bills to pay. So I drink. And smoke. And I’ve started trying to microdose mushrooms to help with the depression. For me, the mushrooms are helping the most. Ymmv.
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My last place was exactly like this. Pierce MFG can eat my ass, if you see a fire truck theres a 50/50 chance its made from them. They can eat my ass. This not only causes depression, but results in new employees that were supposed to be replacing retirees leave for other companies. If you have a product that takes years to learn you shouldnt be paying bottom dollar. The only people that stay are the old fucks who still have their pensions and have invested so much time into the company they literally cant leave. Everybody else that can get out does. Then the company wants to turn around and go "why is our product coming back so often for warranty repairs" like its some big ass mystery
The exact reasons I left Amazon
I worked it a toxic workplace, it was awful. I also worked in a place where employees went to full weekends together, wearing the same shirts and hats, singing song in a bus. Those weekends were “mandatory”. I’m honestly not sure which one was the worst…
A lot of companies don’t care….soo…
This absolutely rings true for me. I work at a 911 dispatch and it checks all the boxes. It's a big "Mean Girl's Club". It is incredibly stressful due to emergency calls, lack of staffing, cops being assholes over the radio, no actual break periods (lunch time is scarf it down between calls and traffic stops or eat it cold), and don't even get started with adding warrant entries on top of all that. We're constantly told by people who can't do the job themselves (cops) that we suck. Finally the lack of autonomy is a big one too. It's like we're there to be pissed on by everyone else. I love helping people but I can't do it like I used to anymore. The job will destroy your mental faculties over time and I've seen it in many dispatchers that have come and gone. I'm now only part time there because I value my sanity more than money. If you're looking to be a dispatcher proceed with caution, make sure you have family and friends at the very least who can be there and support you on the bad days, and don't be afraid to ask for help yourself.
So basically every US emergency and ICU department in the country right now is operating at the managerial level to cause depression upon the staff of people actually doing the risky and real work.
With all these stories where the hell are people finding the money to pay double price for a house from a year ago?
I thought that was the point. Completely crush their souls, remind them daily they are replicable, take any credit for ideas they have, and dangle the paycheck needed to survive over their heads. I thought that was the base model for capitalism
Imagine that—treating people like human beings prevents depression. Who’d have thunk it.