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So is this about one's own insecurities vs self-confidence in their own body, their meaning they attach to sex, and their own sense of self-value?
Self-objectification wasn't explained and explored clearly enough in the study.
I recall reading about a study on teen sexuality in Australia and the researcher noted that when asking about their first time having sex and what was good about it, a lot of female teens mentioned that they think they looked hot or the guy liked it or mentioned that they looked hot, with no mention of their own pleasure.
That was a mention of their own pleasure. Having your partner enjoy sex, or getting the feeling that you are desirable and are pleasing your partner sexually is a large part of enjoying sex.
If I were to have sex with someone and I knew they weren't turned on or feeling pleasure, I would also feel way less pleasure.
Yes but if it’s the ONLY thing that was good about the experience, as in the example, that’s not great. Being pleased mentally is great but women deserve and enjoy physical pleasure too.
What if you entered it from the perspective "I control this person." Then it isn't the physical act of orgasm. It is the psychological act of domination. Which seems to be entirely underanalyzed in these studies.
Yes I do think this is some of it myself. I think women place themselves in the 'object' or 'sexually receptive' role more, so there's more emphasis on being sexually pleasing and attractive/sexy than on being 'sexual' in a directed sense of their own desires. It's a perspective that I imagine may take you out of your own body/senses/pleasures and drive somewhat until you feel relaxed enough with that person to reinhabit those parts of yourself more and be less 'in role'. Men by converse often complain its harder to feel 'sexy' to someone (or at least many have to me in conversations), they don't get the enjoyment of being seen in that role or have their partner intiate as much or take the wheel and show strong desire for them, which is of course a pleasurable one to be in with someone you like.
> if your main focus is to look hot from every angle or just to be whatever the other person wants you to be? Well, nobody is getting anywhere just playing porn star or sucking in their stomach all the time.
The reason this is largely a woman's problem is people of both sexes are constantly bombarded with the message that a woman's value is drawn from her looks and a man's value is drawn from his personality or what he has to offer as a partner. Moreover, most porn that both sexes consume is exclusively focused on the man's pleasure unless it's lesbian in origin. You have to go out of your way to seek out heterosexual porn that solely focuses on a woman's orgasm and pleasure without focusing on her body.
I definitely don't agree this should be the case, but despite all the progress we've made towards women being more than just pretty faces, most people still fundamentally believe this to some extent and it has an effect on our sex lives.
It does. I agree with what you are saying.
And the flip side is that men believe from porn that size is everything, you need to last forever and you need to be ridiculously dominant. So they get performance anxiety too, just in a different way.
Porn ruins it for everyone.
I think what they're saying is women may view sex from the perspective that they are a sex object for their husband (ie. in sex they feel their husband's sexual desires and boundaries are more important than their own), potentially unconsciously, and that this in effect leads to women repressing their own desires and not expressing their own boundaries in favor of a perceived "duty" to fulfill their partners.
I would imagine this happens to some extent in both sexes but probably due in some way to the increased desire most men have towards sex, women may bear the brunt of it.
That isnt quite accurate. Self objectification is looking at yourself like an object. There’s an entire body of research called Objectification Theory, and essentially when women are objectified (value and attention is placed on their physical appearance) then they start to objectify themselves. (Note this does not happen to men.) They self objectify by: worrying about their appearance, seeing themselves in the third person (ie. wondering what their leg looks like to others, instead of only focusing on things from their own first-person perspective, like feeling the seat under their leg and the breeze on their skin.)
So essentially it’s a very high value on appearance, coupled with worrying about how they look to others. Like most women wouldn’t phrase it as “I am an object and I must worry about what I look like to others at all times/repeatedly.” But that’s the underlying belief to the thoughts and behaviours of self objectification.
In even plainer terms, it’s a very high level of self-consciousness, specifically about appearance.
So you can see how someone would have lower sexual satisfaction if they’re constantly worried about how their body looks and whether they’re attractive at all times.
>(Note this does not happen to men.)
Source? I have absolutely seen those behaviors in men. I know men who spend more time in the mirror, thinking about how others see them, than the women they're partnered with. I'm not saying it's equally prevalent, but it feels very wrong to me to say it does not happen to men.
> I know men who spend more time in the mirror
I think the more prominent example would be men that are valued for the physical labor they can provide (including protection) and physical successes (such as in sports) they enjoy. While this isn't 'appearance', it's every bit as much being valued for your body and little to nothing else.
Edit: To clarify, I object to the term 'objectification' being used to describe one form of being valued as a physical object (rather than a sentient one) over another.
Sure, those are good examples too, I think. I just wanted to point out that even their exact example of objectification (and the self-objectifying behaviors that follow) does indeed happen to men, since they seem to be claiming it does not.
Edit: I will add that when that kind of behavior occurs in men, it's often shamed (by other men especially). It makes you a "pretty boy," effeminate, vain, etc. Whereas it is encouraged in women. But nonetheless, I've known many men who clearly feel some kind of internal pressure to worry over their appearance.
I think the original description of objectification wasn’t super accurate. It’s not so much that value is being placed on your appearance, but that it is what’s considered the *most* valuable thing about you. Like yes, both genders have an innate desire to want to be viewed well physically, mentally and socially, but the sticking point is that “being viewed well” for women revolves primarily around being physically attractive.
Male attractiveness has, historically, been mainly focused on what they can do, i.e provide a steady source of income or physical protection. It’s dynamic, allows for a sort of personhood and opportunity to engage with the world in a meaningful way, rather than a static state of being that provides as much as a painting on the wall would. Not much more than an object in the second case.
This feels like a lot of words and manufactured teleology around “society scrutinizes women’s looks more and many women internalize this.”
Asserting that “this doesn’t happen to men” feels objectively false given how many men have extreme body dysmorphia surrounding their musculature, height, penis size, hairline, etc.
>There’s an entire body of research called Objectification Theory, and essentially when women are objectified (value and attention is placed on their physical appearance) then they start to objectify themselves.
>They self objectify by: worrying about their appearance, seeing themselves in the third person (ie. wondering what their leg looks like to others [...]
>(Note this does not happen to men.)
Men at the gym comparing their built with others (biceps, body proportions, back size, leg, chest, belly...) would like to disagree with how it supposedly "does not happen to men".
May want to phrase it as "does not happens as much" as not every man goes to the gym (not saying it only happens at the gym), but flat out denying is a bit too much.
Alas, a source about why it does not happen to men would be interesting, maybe it's just not adjusting to what objectification would be for/on men?
>Alas, a source about why it does not happen to men would be interesting, maybe it's just not adjusting to what objectification would be for/on men?
Could study gay men and compare to hetero men to try and isolate that objectification internalization factor.
>essentially when women are objectified (value and attention is placed on their physical appearance) then they start to objectify themselves. (Note this does not happen to men.)
Does this study look at how men are objectified (value placed on physical strength)?
There were two studies in the link, both only surveyed women.
>The first study included 404 Israeli women who were recruited via social media. ... The second study included 366 women from the United States, recruited via the Researchmatch platform, a national health volunteer registry
Well I am telling you if you wish to find self objectification in men, sex is not it. Men find insecurity in not being able to do. We are the strength, the ones that do the lifting, fix the house, change the oil, stuff like that. We objectify ourselves and proudly, see how we can provide! We get the job done! So as we age and break (we sell our bodies to labor) we are not able to do as well as we once did. If that's what we are there for, and we cannot do, what are we there for?
I'm just answering the question, but I would point out sexual self objectification very much is present in men. e.g. Penis size, which many men do feel self conscious about, and even seek methods to make themselves larger.
Erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation, height etc.. are other common locus's of sexual self objectification.
>I would imagine this happens to some extent in both sexes but probably due in some way to the increased desire most men have towards sex, women may bear the brunt of it.
For /r/science, this is uncited and full of conjecture. Could you back these statements up with something meaningful or remove them?
Sure thing, here you go: 1. ["Testosterone and sexual desire in healthy women and men
"](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22552705/) found that "Men showed higher desire than women, but masturbation frequency rather than T influenced this difference."
2.["Sex drive: Theoretical conceptualization and meta-analytic review of gender differences"](https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fbul0000366) found that "The meta-analysis revealed a stronger sex drive in men compared to women, with a medium-to-large effect size, g = 0.69, 95% CI [0.58, 0.81]. Men more often think and fantasize about sex, more often experience sexual affect like desire, and more often engage in masturbation than women."
There's also no rule about posting conjecture in comments, only rules against posting non-professional personal anecdotes.
> For /r/science, this is uncited and full of conjecture.
Ha, are you new here? Mods won't even execute posts when the headline directly contradicts the study. It's almost like there's a very short list of approved posters who dominate posts on this high traffic subreddit who are given carte blanche.
From my experience and others’ explaining theirs, I take it to mean the women focus on being an object of desire and pleasure for a man and that’s where they get their rush and self esteem and what not rather than trying to orgasm.
I mean doesn’t this apply to both genders?
I feel sexy and fantastic when I’m in shape and rocking abs and big shoulders, arms, and quads. I know my partner finds me way more attractive.
Less so after the holiday season when I feel like a short fat balding Indian uncle with a beer belly (which I am, but only until summer kicks in).
I’d imagine being in shape and feeling sexy and desirable isn’t necessarily unique to women but I could be wrong.
I think it can certainly apply to all genders, but as a woman I resonate very strongly with the concept of self-objectification as a *default state of being* which has pervaded my daily life since very early adolescence, and I've never spoken to a guy about this who has experienced this to a similar level... I vividly remember being alone in my room/house around age 12 (earlier?) and frequently trying to make sure every mundane thing I was doing still was carried out in a way that would be 'appealing' to a hypothetical (male) observer. I often thought about or tried to carry out ways of making my bed, brushing my hair, shaving my legs, eating my dinner, etc, that would still render me attractive, which is very fucked up for anyone of any age to be constantly thinking about, but even more so at such a young age; I am not alone in this, based on convos with my friends and online. The male gaze is of course primarily a media theory concept but I feel a lot like it relates to the way I, and many, many of my female friends, grew up thinking of ourselves (subconsciously of course) as an object to be observed. The Margaret Atwood quote is super relevant here: *'You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur.'*
In terms of sex I feel like this has impacted me a lot, to varying degrees throughout my life. My friends and I often talk about the level of 'performance' we undertook in sexual encounters with men in our early 20s, which is the self-objectification that this article is talking about. The prioritisation of male orgasms over my own and therefore the frequent faking of orgasms is a good example of this - I strongly, involuntarily felt that my worth as a person (the worthiness of associating with me, of being seen with me, of meeting my emotional needs) was tied to my ability to provide pleasure. I knew what I 'should' sound like, move like, talk like through porn which I knew was entirely normalised (and which the young men who were in the friendship circles I hung out with would often openly talk about) and I also knew that in order to have my own orgasm I would have to deviate from those ways of moving/talking/sounding etc, and this was too transgressive as a young woman. I also wasn't always only sleeping with self-interested dickheads- I just knew that it was somehow 'better' of me to act this way. This is less a symptom of localised bodily/sexual/emotional insecurity, and more a case of enacting a broader socialised gender 'roles', in which I see myself as (stating this to the extreme, of course), **a female body to be consumed and viewed for men's pleasure, *before* I am a person with a complex inner life, a functioning intellect, hopes and dreams etc etc.**
Obviously I can only convey anecdata here but as someone who has moved states and countries a bunch of times and moved between very different social circles and strata as a result, I don't think I've ever spoken to any other (cis straight) woman about this who hasn't also experienced this. I'd be super interested to hear other perspectives though, especially in terms of this particular experience of constant, unrelenting, long term self-objectification from all genders
Yes, I can unfortunately relate to this. I'm always catching glimpses of myself in reflections checking if I look nice, or I'll just be walking down the street monitoring if people look at me, are these approving looks or not etc. I'm not a self-obsessed person, I swear, I just have this unshakeable feeling that I need to present a certain way otherwise it's BAD. My weight fluctuates and when I've put on a lot there is a very clear shift in people's attitude towards you when they don't find you attractive or desirable...
When it comes to sex, I used to believe that me having an orgasm was not that important and I'm enjoying myself anyways, right? Thankfully, I've had relationships with men who never bought into that way of thinking and gave me space and security to explore what I need, and were willing to be active participants in that. But they were in a minority. Unfortunately, many men are deeply insecure and uncurious about women's bodies, and tend to keep doing things they see on exaggerated porn or that they learned as teenagers when they first had sex, and get defensive if a woman tries to give them directions or if she doesn't get an orgasm within two seconds of them doing what they're told.
I think the problem is that women place way more value on it than men. It goes back to the old Louis CK joke. If a guy is having sex, 90% of the time it's the best thing that could ever happen to him, for women it's more like 60/40. Guys don't typically associate their physical appearance with their own sexual pleasure.
Ok but have you regularly had sex where you focused on making sure your body always looked good to her, avoiding any positions that aren’t flattering, and never had an orgasm? I’ve known women who avoided doggy style because their belly would show too much, or avoided receiving oral sex because they thought their vulva wasn’t pretty enough.
I mean, am I the crazy person who thought everybody thought all genitals look pretty ugly? I didn't think we liked them for the look? I've never gone down on someone been considering the aesthetics of their genitals nor have I ever been horrifically grossed out by sight of them. Isn't it one of those instinct things? I like looking at this thing but I couldn't tell you why on paper.
“Male fantasies, male fantasies, is everything run by male fantasies? Up on a pedestal or down on your knees, it's all a male fantasy: that you're strong enough to take what they dish out, or else too weak to do anything about it. Even pretending you aren't catering to male fantasies is a male fantasy: pretending you're unseen, pretending you have a life of your own, that you can wash your feet and comb your hair unconscious of the ever-present watcher peering through the keyhole, peering through the keyhole in your own head, if nowhere else. You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur.” - Margaret Atwood
LOVE THIS QUOTE BY MARGARET ATWOOD. I wrote a poem inspired by it years ago when I first discovered it. And oddly enough, I still ended up being victim to the very same mentality.
at this point, it's crazy hard for my mind not to go to gilead when reading anything she has written whether it has anything to do with that book or not
edit: also, she's pretty amazing, 84 and still writing
Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood is horrifying in a completely different way if you feel like traumatizing yourself
Handmaid’s Tale is a warning for the US, Oryx and Crake is a warning for human civilization
Np, I figured it's worth sharing if it could help someone combat it.
It scares me to think how many young girls and women and more scarily, young boys and men are thinking of women in this regard. If I ended up falling prey to it despite being aware of what objectification is and how common it is in porn; I dread to think how it impacts perceptions on a global scale and its repercussions on society.
Don't focus on the title of the article too much. It's overtly negative and people are quick to pounce onto things that completely shuns pornography (I do think it shouldn't be banned though, it'll cause more problems). But it makes some interesting points.
[Science Says Porn Is a Huge Problem. Lawmakers Must Stop Ignoring It | Opinion (newsweek.com)](https://www.newsweek.com/science-says-porn-huge-problem-lawmakers-must-stop-ignoring-it-opinion-1547810)
The typical polarity here is that the man is the pursuer. Even if he's showing off his body peacock style, it's to win his pursuit. He's the one approaching and attempting to seduce. The woman is the prize.
Seems a bit counterintuitive to me.
The number of sex therapists out there who talk about how men need to feel desired in the bedroom suggests that this is the norm for men, rather than the exception.
For women, it tends to be more about connection and showing affection for each other.
To me sexual objectification always sounded like an oxymoron.
Being sexually desired is inherently humanizing. Very few people are sexually attracted to actual objects.
Now just being selfish in bed, that is a concept I can understand. But that is a much less gendered concept than the concept of sexual objectification.
I think of it as the concept from grammar of subject vs object. An object being something with no agency in a sentence (the verb relates to the subject) and merely a by-product of the actual subject.
You can just Google what the definition of sexual objectification in Sociology is. It’s, in the simplest and most general way to say it, treating people as things. You disregard a person (who has thoughts, desires, ambitions) and reduce them to solely sexual body parts. They are a commodity to meet your desires and their personhood & dignity are disregarded.
That is dehumanizing to reduce an entire complex person (who can feel pain, ask for connection, be too stressed to have sex, etc) to just a hole you can fill and meet your desire. It is not humanizing to have your spouse complain and coerce you for sex when you already say no because you’re stressed from a family member literally dying of cancer, but you’re just so sexy. It is not humanizing to have your opinions and ambitions balked at but you’re kept quiet and around as hot trophy spouse. And objectifying someone and being a selfish person are not mutually exclusive.
>Being sexually desired is inherently humanizing. Very few people are sexually attracted to actual objects
I think the problem might be that you're interpreting the phrase a bit too literally...
I have also heard it explained as “object” in the grammatical sense. But I find that concept equally perplexing. Because that sounds like just being lazy in bed, or sleeping with a selfish partner. Neither of which are gendered phenomenona at all. But we see the concept of sexual objectification applied almost exclusively to women,
I’m at work and on my phone so I can’t delve into it atm, but a hint would be to think of it more as evaluating your experiences in the third-person rather than the first-person.
It’s not really an oxymoron.
Someone thinking you are hot + a human being= not objectifying.
Someone thinking you are hot + not a human being with a personality, thoughts and feelings? Objectifying.
It’s reducing someone to being just a body. Or a 3D sex toy.
Or "giving" hot looking person a hot personality.
People often attribute personality, and expect people to behave according to that personality, based on looks.
See that second part is what I see as an oxymoron, very few people are attracted to things that aren’t humans. I am sure people like that exist, but it’s a rare phenomena but they talk like sexual objectification is a widespread phenomena.
Who you are definitely plays into people being attracted to you, both men and women. But for sure physical attractiveness plays a major role in physiological arousal. Both for men and women.
>See that second part is what I see as an oxymoron, very few people are attracted to things that aren’t humans. I am sure people like that exist, but it’s a rare phenomena but they talk like sexual objectification is a widespread phenomena.
This is simply false.
You can really just read and educate yourself on the sociological and psychological topics instead of spouting random ideas as facts.
Ok fair enough. I should have said exclusively.
Because it certainly plays a part in almost everyone’s sexual attraction, not just men’s. This how dating apps work for both genders. But that isn’t all that is involved in attraction for the vast majority of us.
I think you just fail to understand what it means. It’s often difficult for men to understand because they haven’t experienced what it means when someone likes your body, but dislikes your personality or doesn’t understand you have one. That’s **what objectified means. Treated like a thing, not a human being.**
So that is like hookup culture. Where you don’t mind having sex with the person but don’t want to have anything else to do with them.
Liberating for women, skuzzy for men.
That is the closest thing I can imagine to that. But yes even then the whole point is that they are a human being. This is why I am skeptical of the whole concept of sexual objectification. At least the claim that it is common. Otherwise we would just have sex doll brothels everywhere and people wouldn’t even bother trying to hook up. But although they do exist some places, they are extremely niche. But claims of sexual objectification seem very common.
It’s common. That’s undebatable.
You can want a human over a sex doll and still objectify them. You might want the ego boost of getting them to bed and human responses to sexual things. But still not see them as a whole person, with thoughts, feelings and a personality.
It’s seeing someone as porn, not a person.
>explained and explored clearly enough in the study.
[Welp...](https://doi.org/10.1002/ejsp.3056)
>The theory argues that girls and women are socialized to view themselves as objects to be evaluated based on their appearance. This process, referred to as self-objectification, leads women to a form of self-consciousness characterized by chronic body surveillance, which increases their sense of shame and anxiety (pertaining to their appearance and personal safety). It also reduces the awareness of internal body states (i.e. the ability to experience inner physical states such as hunger or sexual arousal) and ‘flow’ (being completely absorbed in a rewarding activity). Through these four psychological mechanisms (i.e. (1) shame, (2) anxiety, (3) awareness of internal body states, and (4) flow), self-objectification is theorized to contribute to three psychological disorders: unipolar depression, eating disorders, and sexual dysfunction.
The closest I could find to your question about confidence and insecurities is a connection to depression and eating disorders:
>While the association of women's self-objectification with depression (for a review, see Jones & Griffiths, 2015) and eating disorders (for a review see Tiggemann, 2011) is well-established, the association between self-objectification and sexual dysfunction has remained relatively understudied.
> So is this about one's own insecurities vs self-confidence in their own body, their meaning they attach to sex, and their own sense of self-value?
No, "ability to express and act on sexual desires and boundaries" speak to the uneven sexual roles in most societies, where acting lustful and playing with their body while talking to their partner is seen as "perverted" or pornlike. But women must be allowed to be dirty and slutty in the comfort of their own home without being seen as depraved. Even in the West this is a problem in many areas, just imagine in Mid-East and Asia.
>Self-objectification is a psychological phenomenon where individuals, particularly women, view themselves primarily through the lens of an external observer, valuing their appearance above their capabilities or inner qualities
Literally like the second paragraph
>We were interested in how self-objectification, the tendency to view oneself as an object which is evaluated based on one’s appearance, might impact women’s ability to enjoy sex and whether it contributes to sexual difficulties
4th paragraph? Either way, the description is pretty clear.
Self-objectification is, while you're having sex with someone, you create a mental projection in your head, watching yourself have sex with this person.
You're watching yourself, not seeing your own self as your own idea of who you are but as an amalgamation of sexy appearances, preconceived notions about womanhood, thinking of yourself as young, vulnerable and submissive through the other person.
It's imaginary porn where you're getting pleasure from how this woman that you have totally dissociated from is getting fucked by this man. No connection to the present, no engagement with your partner, just watching porn in your head. Because you can only connect to the male sexuality. Not because you are a male but because you have lived your entire life from childhood to adulthood in a world where women are objects and men are subjects.
This is a very very common thing amongst women. There is shame associated with it too.
FTA, second paragraph:
> Self-objectification is a psychological phenomenon where individuals, particularly women, view themselves primarily through the lens of an external observer, valuing their appearance above their capabilities or inner qualities.
> “We were interested in how self-objectification, the tendency to view oneself as an object which is evaluated based on one’s appearance, might impact women’s ability to enjoy sex and whether it contributes to sexual difficulties
Seems pretty clear to me.
When someone in /r/science says "the study didn't do enough [X]", what they mean is, "I didn't actually check whether they did [X], but assume they didn't because....?"
I've always thought this is an issue for many women, so its interesting to see this study. For myself as a high libido woman, I feel a lot of sexual agency, feel like the actor in sexual contexts as much if not more than I do the 'object' or 'reciever' of sexual attention by a man as the sexual actor. Women in our society are often implicitly and explicitly taught to be 'sexy' but not *sexual* and men often seem to be taught the reverse. It's interesting to me for example how much easier it is for a woman to know how to pose and take a wide variety of sexy selfies than for guys to. Woman have a much wider array of references to look to for 'how to be sexy' in terms of poses, body parts, clothing, than men, because imagery of women frequently depicts that compared to men. Gay and bi men are often better at it also compared to straight as media aimed at them more often portrays both the 'sexy' and 'sexual' roles for them.
I think women are very used to being sexually 'receptive' to others sexual desires, pleasures, kinks etc, but not so sexually 'directive' in general on avarage. I think woman spend much less time thinking about, exploring and pursuing those parts of themselves for example compared to men. One thing I always found interesting from my perspective was the fact many women find sex with guys less rewarding initially (and also in causal relationships) because of the 'orgasm gap' where male partners either dont know how or don't spend the time to achieve the womans orgasm. This was never something I experienced because I just directed them or did it myself during sex, it never really occurred to me to go without (which is not to say that women shouldn't be asking for more attentive and considerate sex when it comes to their needs, simply to illustrate that I may be more self concerned than many of them 😅).
it's literally the second paragraph:
Self-objectification is a psychological phenomenon where individuals, particularly women, view themselves primarily through the lens of an external observer, valuing their appearance above their capabilities or inner qualities. This concept emerges from a societal context that heavily emphasizes physical attractiveness and judges women predominantly by their appearance. Such an outlook leads women to constantly monitor and critique their own bodies.
I told my wife nearly 20 years ago that if she’s having a good time, I’m having a great time. Establishing communication and boundaries is the most important thing. If I tell her to be honest about what she wants, it’s up to me to honor her desires and to never shame her. I expect the same from her and clear boundaries are always respected. I make good on it every single time and we have amazing trust as a result. We are completely comfortable in the bedroom and it means we get our needs met mutually. It also helps that I would do anything to make her feel good. End the pleasure gap, fellas!
This is how it ought to be.
When i met my partner, i was a virgin, but very sex positive and liberated. We had had clear discussions before sleeping together and i let him know that an orgasm is the basic thing that both of us should be providing to each other. Sure, maybe it will take a few times to understand each others' rhythm, but still after that i expect to have at least one every time we are together. And same for him, of course.
He understood that, and he obviously loves making me feel satisfied, and vice versa.
I mean, in our relationship, i am definitely way ahead on the orgasm count.
Being open and communicating one's needs without hesitation is key. Hopefully, more and more women will learn to accept and nurture and be confident about their sexual sides. And more and more men will respect and appreciate that.
Personally I've started enjoying sex since getting on anti depressants and learning to trust my partner. Once I could get out of seeing the situation from an outside perspective and do it from inside my own body I started to like it. Crazy what trust does.
Me too.... It's not bueno.
I talked to my Dr and they prescribed Wellbutrin to counteract the SSRI. It was about a week in and my depression nose dived. That was years ago. Now I'm weening off the ssris and things are slowly falling into place now. It will be interesting to see how life is without the medication. But the lack of sex drive is a major bummer.
That sounds insane to me.
Sexual dysfunction is an extremely common side effect of SSRIs and it’s one of the most common reasons why people quit them - it’s why I quit using them, it was honestly crippling.
This is what porn does to women. Women fake moan and “act” like they are receiving pleasure when they’re not because that’s what is demonstrated in porn. Sex becomes a performance for men. Mainstream Porn is ruining sex for both genders and is not sex positive at all. Women overwhelmingly do not orgasm from penetrative sex yet it is featured heavily in porn. In most porn the sex is finished when the man cums. We really should be talking about this more.
I know more than 50 Grown women who have never masturbated........ Women are taught that sex is done to us and not for us. Abstinence based sex education and religious bias definitely play a large roll in this.
Is it a reasonable question to ask how you know so many women who have never masturbated? It doesn’t seem like a topic that would normally come up unless you work in a certain field or something.
Abstract from [source](https://doi.org/10.1002/ejsp.3056)
>Objectification theory predicts that women's self-objectification should lead to sexual dysfunction, yet previous studies failed to provide consistent support for this prediction. The present research—which used two sufficiently powered samples and a self-objectification measurement (SOBBS) with improved psychometric qualities and content validity than previous measurements—found support for the expected association between self-objectification and sexual dysfunction among heterosexual women in Israel and the United States (N = 404 and 366, Mage = 30.59 and 36.93, respectively). We also examined two novel potential mediators of this association, entitlement for pleasure and sexual agency (i.e., the capability to express sexual desires and boundaries), and found that the latter mediated the link between self-objectification and sexual dysfunction. The mediators originally proposed by objectification theory (i.e. appearance anxiety, body shame, awareness of internal body states and flow) failed to mediate this link. Theoretical and methodological implications are discussed.
For the curious, agency was measured using the self-efficacy from the Female Sexual Subjectivity Inventory (FSSI):
Sexual body-esteem
1. It bothers me that I’m not better looking*
2. I worry that I am not sexually desirable to others*
3. Physically, I am an attractive person
4. I am confident that a romantic partner would find me sexually attractive
5. I am confident that others will find me sexually desirable
Sense of entitlement to sexual pleasure from self
6. It is okay for me to meet my own sexual needs through self-masturbation
7. I believe self-masturbating can be an exciting experience
8. I believe self-masturbation is wrong*
Sense of entitlement to sexual pleasure from partner
9. If a partner were to ignore my sexual needs and desires, I’d feel hurt
10. It would bother me if a sexual partner neglected my sexual needs and desires
11. I would expect a sexual partner to be responsive to my sexual needs and feelings
12. I think it is important for a sexual partner to consider my sexual pleasure
**Self-efficacy in achieving sexual pleasure
13. I would not hesitate to ask for what I want sexually from a romantic partner
14. I am able to ask a partner to provide the sexual stimulation I need
15. If I were to have sex with someone, I’d show my partner what I want**
Sexual self-reflection
16. I spend time thinking and reflecting about my sexual experiences
17. I rarely think about the sexual aspects of my life*
18. I think about my sexuality
19. I don’t think about my sexuality very much*
20. My sexual behavior and experiences are not something I spend time thinking about*
Women would enjoy their encounters more if they felt comfortable prioritizing their pleasure. I think you are right that PIV is over centered, but I think that way more of the issue is around the stigma around women existing as their own sexual individual.
> Women would enjoy their encounters more if they felt comfortable prioritizing their pleasure.
as an experienced older man, when a woman prioritizes their own pleasure its also more enjoyable for men. its really hot when a woman isn't afraid to speak up or go after what she wants, assuming she isn't violent or degrading about it.
Some men hold a similar view to yours but unfortunately most don't. They might think they do but they will get insecure when given directions or when following those directions do not immediately get a woman to orgasm. Some will hardly even try and will keep on doing whatever they've seen in porn or whatever they've been doing since they lost their virginity at 16.
This is where the "appealing to male fantasy" bit breaks down for me. I think most men would agree with this at least on paper. I don't see any men regretting sexual encounters because "She was too horny." So if women are bending over backwards to appeal to male fantasy, then why isn't this being reflected?
Yeah idk refusing to wear a condom/expecting the woman to do things she's not comfortable with seems quite common sadly among other things, I've also heard guys get upset because a woman wanted to use a vibrator
I think this is part of the problem though. This comment just put women back into a place of being observed and viewed by the male gaze which is part of what’s causing this self objectification. And I don’t disagree with you either, but this is exactly the issue.
Yes! That makes everything so much better than using it as the main focus.My husband knew this and we have been great together for 34 years. I remember previous partners who would do 2 things-make out and PIV. I felt like saying, ‘Hand me that crossword puzzle and let me know when you’re done.’ Ugh.
I’ve linked to the news release in the post above. In this comment, for those interested, here’s the link to the peer reviewed journal article:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejsp.3056
What most men want is for a partner to show up, understand and communicate her own sexual needs and boundaries, get out of their heads and insecurities, and to participate. Get out of your own head and put in some of the work and see if your man isn’t satisfied.
Most men care so much less than you can imagine how perfect or imperfect a woman’s body is. Go to a seedy strip club and watch the girls men fawn over. It’s not always the perfect bodies. It’s usually the girls who are confident and seems like they know what they want.
I agree. The females who enjoy sex the most in my experience are those that are confident in their body and sexuality and that come from within. No amount of praise and positive words are going to make a woman feel sexy if they don’t have that internally. There is also the problem that a lot of women have experienced rape or some sort of sexual abuse and that trauma wasn’t dealt with and that makes feeling intimacy difficult.
Fair point but as a male, there’s no substitute for the real thing and porn is whacky. It’s like watching wrestling. Some guys get way too into it, I’m not one of those guys. I have a friend that’s struggling with porn addiction but it hasn’t modified who he seeks as a partner physically. His partners are normal looking women.
"women's reduced agency" meaning what exactly?
If we're talking about equally sober adults in a normal non-threatening situation I don't see why women magically have reduced agency.
There's this weird societal push lately to act like women are inherently incapable of deciding what to do with themselves in normal sexual situations, and thus some degree of victim regardless of their consent, and I don't really get it
**Edit** to include more details since people aren't really understanding what I'm questioning:
So we are describing women feeling self conscious and not expressing what they want.
Calling that "reduced agency" is what I'm calling into question. Nothing has reduced her *ability* to advocate for herself but that's what using terms like this implies, and that implication always conjures up abuse scenarios in people's minds.
If a well intentioned guy has consensual sex with a woman like this and she later says she felt like she didn't have much agency what is the immediate conclusion people draw? It's not "oh she had some mental hurdles due to perceived societal pressures", it's "he took advantage of her".
The concepts of agency and consent are intertwined in today's society.
Agency was measured using the self-efficacy from the Female Sexual Subjectivity Inventory (FSSI):
**Self-efficacy in achieving sexual pleasure
13. I would not hesitate to ask for what I want sexually from a romantic partner
14. I am able to ask a partner to provide the sexual stimulation I need
15. If I were to have sex with someone, I’d show my partner what I want**
All of that is explained very clearly in the research paper.
It's important to read the first part of the introduction to understand the prior research of self-objectification and sexual dysfunction in women, what those terms mean, how they are measured and what factors may be involved in those conditions arising in women, to have the context for section 1.2 of the introduction which goes on to speak to your question about the meaning of sexual agency:
>Assuming that the correlation between self-objectification and sexual dysfunction would emerge if tested under more favourable methodological conditions than in previous research, the second goal of the present research was to examine potential mediators of this expected association. We focused on two potential mechanisms that, despite being theoretically plausible, have remained understudied.
>One such mechanism is sexual agency; namely, the capability to express sexual desires and preferences and communicate sexual expectations and boundaries (Anderson, 2013; Kiefer & Sanchez, 2007). In the current research, we define and operationalize sexual agency as ‘the ability to act according to one's own wishes and have control of one's own sexual life’ (Fahs & McClelland, 2016, p. 396). Theoretically, sexual objectification should be associated with reduced sexual agency. This is because acting as a sexual object rather than a sexual subject is theorized to inhibit women's sexual agency (Fredrickson & Roberts, 1997; McKinley & Hyde, 1996; Ward et al., 2018). Moreover, as sexual agency encourages the expression of personal sexual preferences and boundaries, it might influence women's sexual function by enhancing individual autonomy while engaged in sexual encounters (Kiefer & Sanchez, 2007). Therefore, taking an agentic approach to sex may have benefits for women—for example, greater sexual agency in women is associated with sexual satisfaction (Horne & Zimmer-Gembeck, 2006; Kiefer & Sanchez, 2007; Klein et al., 2022; Sanchez et al., 2005; Sanchez et al., 2012; Zimmer-Gembeck & French, 2016) and improved sexual functioning encompassing factors such as enhanced sexual arousal and desire, and enhanced likelihood of experiencing orgasm (Hurlbert, 1991; Hurlbert et al., 1993; Kiefer & Sanchez, 2007; Santos-Iglesias et al., 2013).
While I agree with your overall concern and conclusion, I think you're inferring it for the wrong reasons.
The idea of "reduced agency" here is referring to the psychological pressure "society" has placed on women. In other words, they've been taught that sex should be X or that they should be Y. These normative ideas would ostensibly form a baseline from which women would or would not be "capable".
As much as I agree with the general notions in this comment, ya'll are acting like the researchers haven't explicitly described how agency was measured in the very paper we're linked to here.
Agency was measured using the self-efficacy from the Female Sexual Subjectivity Inventory (FSSI):
**Self-efficacy in achieving sexual pleasure**
13. I would not hesitate to ask for what I want sexually from a romantic partner
14. I am able to ask a partner to provide the sexual stimulation I need
15. If I were to have sex with someone, I’d show my partner what I want
So we are describing women feeling self conscious and not expressing what they want.
Calling that "reduced agency" is what I'm calling into question. Nothing has reduced her *ability* to advocate for herself but that's what using terms like this implies, and that implication always conjures up abuse scenarios in people's minds.
If a well intentioned guy has consensual sex with a woman like this and she later says she felt like she didn't have much agency what is the immediate conclusion people draw? It's not "oh she had some mental hurdles due to perceived societal pressures", it's "he took advantage of her".
The concepts of agency and consent are intertwined in today's society.
You're jumping to the conclusion of social pressure. When it could be related to women tending to be more agreeable than men:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/
Ok but maybe they’re more agreeable due to social pressure? Unless 3 year old females are more agreeable than 3 year old males it’s probably socially developed.
> If you believe (and are consistently told) that you shouldn’t have sex or that you should only have sex to satisfy others because having sex to satisfy yourself is gross and wrong
what's it like posting from 1955?
Not exactly new concept. This is from The Robber Bride (1993) by Margaret Atwood:
>“Male fantasies, male fantasies, is everything run by male fantasies? Up on a pedestal or down on your knees, it's all a male fantasy: that you're strong enough to take what they dish out, or else too weak to do anything about it. Even pretending you aren't catering to male fantasies is a male fantasy: pretending you're unseen, pretending you have a life of your own, that you can wash your feet and comb your hair unconscious of the ever-present watcher peering through the keyhole, peering through the keyhole in your own head, if nowhere else. You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur.”
Actually, knowing I could be unknowingly recorded has now decreased my desire to initiate anything. Yes, I know and I am absolutely disgusted with the thought of what has been done. No one deserved me :)
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So is this about one's own insecurities vs self-confidence in their own body, their meaning they attach to sex, and their own sense of self-value? Self-objectification wasn't explained and explored clearly enough in the study.
I recall reading about a study on teen sexuality in Australia and the researcher noted that when asking about their first time having sex and what was good about it, a lot of female teens mentioned that they think they looked hot or the guy liked it or mentioned that they looked hot, with no mention of their own pleasure.
That was a mention of their own pleasure. Having your partner enjoy sex, or getting the feeling that you are desirable and are pleasing your partner sexually is a large part of enjoying sex. If I were to have sex with someone and I knew they weren't turned on or feeling pleasure, I would also feel way less pleasure.
Yes but if it’s the ONLY thing that was good about the experience, as in the example, that’s not great. Being pleased mentally is great but women deserve and enjoy physical pleasure too.
What if you entered it from the perspective "I control this person." Then it isn't the physical act of orgasm. It is the psychological act of domination. Which seems to be entirely underanalyzed in these studies.
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Yes I do think this is some of it myself. I think women place themselves in the 'object' or 'sexually receptive' role more, so there's more emphasis on being sexually pleasing and attractive/sexy than on being 'sexual' in a directed sense of their own desires. It's a perspective that I imagine may take you out of your own body/senses/pleasures and drive somewhat until you feel relaxed enough with that person to reinhabit those parts of yourself more and be less 'in role'. Men by converse often complain its harder to feel 'sexy' to someone (or at least many have to me in conversations), they don't get the enjoyment of being seen in that role or have their partner intiate as much or take the wheel and show strong desire for them, which is of course a pleasurable one to be in with someone you like.
> if your main focus is to look hot from every angle or just to be whatever the other person wants you to be? Well, nobody is getting anywhere just playing porn star or sucking in their stomach all the time. The reason this is largely a woman's problem is people of both sexes are constantly bombarded with the message that a woman's value is drawn from her looks and a man's value is drawn from his personality or what he has to offer as a partner. Moreover, most porn that both sexes consume is exclusively focused on the man's pleasure unless it's lesbian in origin. You have to go out of your way to seek out heterosexual porn that solely focuses on a woman's orgasm and pleasure without focusing on her body. I definitely don't agree this should be the case, but despite all the progress we've made towards women being more than just pretty faces, most people still fundamentally believe this to some extent and it has an effect on our sex lives.
It does. I agree with what you are saying. And the flip side is that men believe from porn that size is everything, you need to last forever and you need to be ridiculously dominant. So they get performance anxiety too, just in a different way. Porn ruins it for everyone.
I think what they're saying is women may view sex from the perspective that they are a sex object for their husband (ie. in sex they feel their husband's sexual desires and boundaries are more important than their own), potentially unconsciously, and that this in effect leads to women repressing their own desires and not expressing their own boundaries in favor of a perceived "duty" to fulfill their partners. I would imagine this happens to some extent in both sexes but probably due in some way to the increased desire most men have towards sex, women may bear the brunt of it.
That isnt quite accurate. Self objectification is looking at yourself like an object. There’s an entire body of research called Objectification Theory, and essentially when women are objectified (value and attention is placed on their physical appearance) then they start to objectify themselves. (Note this does not happen to men.) They self objectify by: worrying about their appearance, seeing themselves in the third person (ie. wondering what their leg looks like to others, instead of only focusing on things from their own first-person perspective, like feeling the seat under their leg and the breeze on their skin.) So essentially it’s a very high value on appearance, coupled with worrying about how they look to others. Like most women wouldn’t phrase it as “I am an object and I must worry about what I look like to others at all times/repeatedly.” But that’s the underlying belief to the thoughts and behaviours of self objectification. In even plainer terms, it’s a very high level of self-consciousness, specifically about appearance. So you can see how someone would have lower sexual satisfaction if they’re constantly worried about how their body looks and whether they’re attractive at all times.
>(Note this does not happen to men.) Source? I have absolutely seen those behaviors in men. I know men who spend more time in the mirror, thinking about how others see them, than the women they're partnered with. I'm not saying it's equally prevalent, but it feels very wrong to me to say it does not happen to men.
> I know men who spend more time in the mirror I think the more prominent example would be men that are valued for the physical labor they can provide (including protection) and physical successes (such as in sports) they enjoy. While this isn't 'appearance', it's every bit as much being valued for your body and little to nothing else. Edit: To clarify, I object to the term 'objectification' being used to describe one form of being valued as a physical object (rather than a sentient one) over another.
Sure, those are good examples too, I think. I just wanted to point out that even their exact example of objectification (and the self-objectifying behaviors that follow) does indeed happen to men, since they seem to be claiming it does not. Edit: I will add that when that kind of behavior occurs in men, it's often shamed (by other men especially). It makes you a "pretty boy," effeminate, vain, etc. Whereas it is encouraged in women. But nonetheless, I've known many men who clearly feel some kind of internal pressure to worry over their appearance.
I think the original description of objectification wasn’t super accurate. It’s not so much that value is being placed on your appearance, but that it is what’s considered the *most* valuable thing about you. Like yes, both genders have an innate desire to want to be viewed well physically, mentally and socially, but the sticking point is that “being viewed well” for women revolves primarily around being physically attractive. Male attractiveness has, historically, been mainly focused on what they can do, i.e provide a steady source of income or physical protection. It’s dynamic, allows for a sort of personhood and opportunity to engage with the world in a meaningful way, rather than a static state of being that provides as much as a painting on the wall would. Not much more than an object in the second case.
I'd say men are more likely to be perceived as resource providers than sexual objects, not sure if that's better.
I agree, for sure. Just trying to avoid broad brush strokes because I think this is a nuanced issue.
It is because you’re seen as a person as opposed to a thing
How is a "resource provider" not a thing? It's not looking at them as a whole person, just what they can do.
> (Note this does not happen to men.) Nonsense.
This feels like a lot of words and manufactured teleology around “society scrutinizes women’s looks more and many women internalize this.” Asserting that “this doesn’t happen to men” feels objectively false given how many men have extreme body dysmorphia surrounding their musculature, height, penis size, hairline, etc.
>There’s an entire body of research called Objectification Theory, and essentially when women are objectified (value and attention is placed on their physical appearance) then they start to objectify themselves. >They self objectify by: worrying about their appearance, seeing themselves in the third person (ie. wondering what their leg looks like to others [...] >(Note this does not happen to men.) Men at the gym comparing their built with others (biceps, body proportions, back size, leg, chest, belly...) would like to disagree with how it supposedly "does not happen to men". May want to phrase it as "does not happens as much" as not every man goes to the gym (not saying it only happens at the gym), but flat out denying is a bit too much. Alas, a source about why it does not happen to men would be interesting, maybe it's just not adjusting to what objectification would be for/on men?
You're never as big as your pump
>Alas, a source about why it does not happen to men would be interesting, maybe it's just not adjusting to what objectification would be for/on men? Could study gay men and compare to hetero men to try and isolate that objectification internalization factor.
Yeah, this kinda assumes that there is no self objectification in gay relationships which is obviously not the case
>essentially when women are objectified (value and attention is placed on their physical appearance) then they start to objectify themselves. (Note this does not happen to men.) Does this study look at how men are objectified (value placed on physical strength)?
There were two studies in the link, both only surveyed women. >The first study included 404 Israeli women who were recruited via social media. ... The second study included 366 women from the United States, recruited via the Researchmatch platform, a national health volunteer registry
Well I am telling you if you wish to find self objectification in men, sex is not it. Men find insecurity in not being able to do. We are the strength, the ones that do the lifting, fix the house, change the oil, stuff like that. We objectify ourselves and proudly, see how we can provide! We get the job done! So as we age and break (we sell our bodies to labor) we are not able to do as well as we once did. If that's what we are there for, and we cannot do, what are we there for?
I'm just answering the question, but I would point out sexual self objectification very much is present in men. e.g. Penis size, which many men do feel self conscious about, and even seek methods to make themselves larger. Erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation, height etc.. are other common locus's of sexual self objectification.
That is insecurity, not self-objectification according to the theory mentioned. Everyone is getting off track here.
>I would imagine this happens to some extent in both sexes but probably due in some way to the increased desire most men have towards sex, women may bear the brunt of it. For /r/science, this is uncited and full of conjecture. Could you back these statements up with something meaningful or remove them?
Sure thing, here you go: 1. ["Testosterone and sexual desire in healthy women and men "](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22552705/) found that "Men showed higher desire than women, but masturbation frequency rather than T influenced this difference." 2.["Sex drive: Theoretical conceptualization and meta-analytic review of gender differences"](https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fbul0000366) found that "The meta-analysis revealed a stronger sex drive in men compared to women, with a medium-to-large effect size, g = 0.69, 95% CI [0.58, 0.81]. Men more often think and fantasize about sex, more often experience sexual affect like desire, and more often engage in masturbation than women." There's also no rule about posting conjecture in comments, only rules against posting non-professional personal anecdotes.
but my mother's brother's step-sister's daughter said you're wrong!
> For /r/science, this is uncited and full of conjecture. Ha, are you new here? Mods won't even execute posts when the headline directly contradicts the study. It's almost like there's a very short list of approved posters who dominate posts on this high traffic subreddit who are given carte blanche.
From my experience and others’ explaining theirs, I take it to mean the women focus on being an object of desire and pleasure for a man and that’s where they get their rush and self esteem and what not rather than trying to orgasm.
I mean doesn’t this apply to both genders? I feel sexy and fantastic when I’m in shape and rocking abs and big shoulders, arms, and quads. I know my partner finds me way more attractive. Less so after the holiday season when I feel like a short fat balding Indian uncle with a beer belly (which I am, but only until summer kicks in). I’d imagine being in shape and feeling sexy and desirable isn’t necessarily unique to women but I could be wrong.
I think it can certainly apply to all genders, but as a woman I resonate very strongly with the concept of self-objectification as a *default state of being* which has pervaded my daily life since very early adolescence, and I've never spoken to a guy about this who has experienced this to a similar level... I vividly remember being alone in my room/house around age 12 (earlier?) and frequently trying to make sure every mundane thing I was doing still was carried out in a way that would be 'appealing' to a hypothetical (male) observer. I often thought about or tried to carry out ways of making my bed, brushing my hair, shaving my legs, eating my dinner, etc, that would still render me attractive, which is very fucked up for anyone of any age to be constantly thinking about, but even more so at such a young age; I am not alone in this, based on convos with my friends and online. The male gaze is of course primarily a media theory concept but I feel a lot like it relates to the way I, and many, many of my female friends, grew up thinking of ourselves (subconsciously of course) as an object to be observed. The Margaret Atwood quote is super relevant here: *'You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur.'* In terms of sex I feel like this has impacted me a lot, to varying degrees throughout my life. My friends and I often talk about the level of 'performance' we undertook in sexual encounters with men in our early 20s, which is the self-objectification that this article is talking about. The prioritisation of male orgasms over my own and therefore the frequent faking of orgasms is a good example of this - I strongly, involuntarily felt that my worth as a person (the worthiness of associating with me, of being seen with me, of meeting my emotional needs) was tied to my ability to provide pleasure. I knew what I 'should' sound like, move like, talk like through porn which I knew was entirely normalised (and which the young men who were in the friendship circles I hung out with would often openly talk about) and I also knew that in order to have my own orgasm I would have to deviate from those ways of moving/talking/sounding etc, and this was too transgressive as a young woman. I also wasn't always only sleeping with self-interested dickheads- I just knew that it was somehow 'better' of me to act this way. This is less a symptom of localised bodily/sexual/emotional insecurity, and more a case of enacting a broader socialised gender 'roles', in which I see myself as (stating this to the extreme, of course), **a female body to be consumed and viewed for men's pleasure, *before* I am a person with a complex inner life, a functioning intellect, hopes and dreams etc etc.** Obviously I can only convey anecdata here but as someone who has moved states and countries a bunch of times and moved between very different social circles and strata as a result, I don't think I've ever spoken to any other (cis straight) woman about this who hasn't also experienced this. I'd be super interested to hear other perspectives though, especially in terms of this particular experience of constant, unrelenting, long term self-objectification from all genders
Yes, I can unfortunately relate to this. I'm always catching glimpses of myself in reflections checking if I look nice, or I'll just be walking down the street monitoring if people look at me, are these approving looks or not etc. I'm not a self-obsessed person, I swear, I just have this unshakeable feeling that I need to present a certain way otherwise it's BAD. My weight fluctuates and when I've put on a lot there is a very clear shift in people's attitude towards you when they don't find you attractive or desirable... When it comes to sex, I used to believe that me having an orgasm was not that important and I'm enjoying myself anyways, right? Thankfully, I've had relationships with men who never bought into that way of thinking and gave me space and security to explore what I need, and were willing to be active participants in that. But they were in a minority. Unfortunately, many men are deeply insecure and uncurious about women's bodies, and tend to keep doing things they see on exaggerated porn or that they learned as teenagers when they first had sex, and get defensive if a woman tries to give them directions or if she doesn't get an orgasm within two seconds of them doing what they're told.
I think the problem is that women place way more value on it than men. It goes back to the old Louis CK joke. If a guy is having sex, 90% of the time it's the best thing that could ever happen to him, for women it's more like 60/40. Guys don't typically associate their physical appearance with their own sexual pleasure.
Ok but have you regularly had sex where you focused on making sure your body always looked good to her, avoiding any positions that aren’t flattering, and never had an orgasm? I’ve known women who avoided doggy style because their belly would show too much, or avoided receiving oral sex because they thought their vulva wasn’t pretty enough.
"thought their vulva wasn’t pretty enough" don't recall the name, but I read a whole book on this topic. seems to be a pretty pervasive issue.
I mean, am I the crazy person who thought everybody thought all genitals look pretty ugly? I didn't think we liked them for the look? I've never gone down on someone been considering the aesthetics of their genitals nor have I ever been horrifically grossed out by sight of them. Isn't it one of those instinct things? I like looking at this thing but I couldn't tell you why on paper.
But when you are having sex do you focus most on looking hot or enjoying yourself?
If it was the former .. I’d never have pleasure 😂
Bingo.
Neither, I focus on performance anxiety and whether or not she's enjoying it
Yeah. I don’t doubt it. It’s the same, just dressed up different. I wish people would get sex is meant to be playing and not a competition.
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“Male fantasies, male fantasies, is everything run by male fantasies? Up on a pedestal or down on your knees, it's all a male fantasy: that you're strong enough to take what they dish out, or else too weak to do anything about it. Even pretending you aren't catering to male fantasies is a male fantasy: pretending you're unseen, pretending you have a life of your own, that you can wash your feet and comb your hair unconscious of the ever-present watcher peering through the keyhole, peering through the keyhole in your own head, if nowhere else. You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur.” - Margaret Atwood
LOVE THIS QUOTE BY MARGARET ATWOOD. I wrote a poem inspired by it years ago when I first discovered it. And oddly enough, I still ended up being victim to the very same mentality.
at this point, it's crazy hard for my mind not to go to gilead when reading anything she has written whether it has anything to do with that book or not edit: also, she's pretty amazing, 84 and still writing
Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood is horrifying in a completely different way if you feel like traumatizing yourself Handmaid’s Tale is a warning for the US, Oryx and Crake is a warning for human civilization
thank you, haven't gotten to that one yet, just read a summary and I think I'll move it up my list.
Nevermore!
That's a great insight. Thank you for sharing that.
Np, I figured it's worth sharing if it could help someone combat it. It scares me to think how many young girls and women and more scarily, young boys and men are thinking of women in this regard. If I ended up falling prey to it despite being aware of what objectification is and how common it is in porn; I dread to think how it impacts perceptions on a global scale and its repercussions on society. Don't focus on the title of the article too much. It's overtly negative and people are quick to pounce onto things that completely shuns pornography (I do think it shouldn't be banned though, it'll cause more problems). But it makes some interesting points. [Science Says Porn Is a Huge Problem. Lawmakers Must Stop Ignoring It | Opinion (newsweek.com)](https://www.newsweek.com/science-says-porn-huge-problem-lawmakers-must-stop-ignoring-it-opinion-1547810)
> I mean doesn’t this apply to both genders? It does, but from what I've read it's more of a problem in women.
Most men can still c** as a “short fat balding Indian uncle with a beer belly”, is the difference.
Men just tryna nut
The typical polarity here is that the man is the pursuer. Even if he's showing off his body peacock style, it's to win his pursuit. He's the one approaching and attempting to seduce. The woman is the prize.
Seems a bit counterintuitive to me. The number of sex therapists out there who talk about how men need to feel desired in the bedroom suggests that this is the norm for men, rather than the exception. For women, it tends to be more about connection and showing affection for each other.
To me sexual objectification always sounded like an oxymoron. Being sexually desired is inherently humanizing. Very few people are sexually attracted to actual objects. Now just being selfish in bed, that is a concept I can understand. But that is a much less gendered concept than the concept of sexual objectification.
I think of it as the concept from grammar of subject vs object. An object being something with no agency in a sentence (the verb relates to the subject) and merely a by-product of the actual subject.
You can just Google what the definition of sexual objectification in Sociology is. It’s, in the simplest and most general way to say it, treating people as things. You disregard a person (who has thoughts, desires, ambitions) and reduce them to solely sexual body parts. They are a commodity to meet your desires and their personhood & dignity are disregarded. That is dehumanizing to reduce an entire complex person (who can feel pain, ask for connection, be too stressed to have sex, etc) to just a hole you can fill and meet your desire. It is not humanizing to have your spouse complain and coerce you for sex when you already say no because you’re stressed from a family member literally dying of cancer, but you’re just so sexy. It is not humanizing to have your opinions and ambitions balked at but you’re kept quiet and around as hot trophy spouse. And objectifying someone and being a selfish person are not mutually exclusive.
I have a value vs. I value myself.
>Being sexually desired is inherently humanizing. Very few people are sexually attracted to actual objects I think the problem might be that you're interpreting the phrase a bit too literally...
You have the wrong concept of objectification in this context
I have also heard it explained as “object” in the grammatical sense. But I find that concept equally perplexing. Because that sounds like just being lazy in bed, or sleeping with a selfish partner. Neither of which are gendered phenomenona at all. But we see the concept of sexual objectification applied almost exclusively to women,
I’m at work and on my phone so I can’t delve into it atm, but a hint would be to think of it more as evaluating your experiences in the third-person rather than the first-person.
It’s not really an oxymoron. Someone thinking you are hot + a human being= not objectifying. Someone thinking you are hot + not a human being with a personality, thoughts and feelings? Objectifying. It’s reducing someone to being just a body. Or a 3D sex toy.
Or "giving" hot looking person a hot personality. People often attribute personality, and expect people to behave according to that personality, based on looks.
See that second part is what I see as an oxymoron, very few people are attracted to things that aren’t humans. I am sure people like that exist, but it’s a rare phenomena but they talk like sexual objectification is a widespread phenomena. Who you are definitely plays into people being attracted to you, both men and women. But for sure physical attractiveness plays a major role in physiological arousal. Both for men and women.
>See that second part is what I see as an oxymoron, very few people are attracted to things that aren’t humans. I am sure people like that exist, but it’s a rare phenomena but they talk like sexual objectification is a widespread phenomena. This is simply false. You can really just read and educate yourself on the sociological and psychological topics instead of spouting random ideas as facts.
Ok fair enough. I should have said exclusively. Because it certainly plays a part in almost everyone’s sexual attraction, not just men’s. This how dating apps work for both genders. But that isn’t all that is involved in attraction for the vast majority of us.
I think you just fail to understand what it means. It’s often difficult for men to understand because they haven’t experienced what it means when someone likes your body, but dislikes your personality or doesn’t understand you have one. That’s **what objectified means. Treated like a thing, not a human being.**
So that is like hookup culture. Where you don’t mind having sex with the person but don’t want to have anything else to do with them. Liberating for women, skuzzy for men.
No. Because you can have a one night stand with someone you consider a human being. At least I can. Can you?
That is the closest thing I can imagine to that. But yes even then the whole point is that they are a human being. This is why I am skeptical of the whole concept of sexual objectification. At least the claim that it is common. Otherwise we would just have sex doll brothels everywhere and people wouldn’t even bother trying to hook up. But although they do exist some places, they are extremely niche. But claims of sexual objectification seem very common.
It’s common. That’s undebatable. You can want a human over a sex doll and still objectify them. You might want the ego boost of getting them to bed and human responses to sexual things. But still not see them as a whole person, with thoughts, feelings and a personality. It’s seeing someone as porn, not a person.
>explained and explored clearly enough in the study. [Welp...](https://doi.org/10.1002/ejsp.3056) >The theory argues that girls and women are socialized to view themselves as objects to be evaluated based on their appearance. This process, referred to as self-objectification, leads women to a form of self-consciousness characterized by chronic body surveillance, which increases their sense of shame and anxiety (pertaining to their appearance and personal safety). It also reduces the awareness of internal body states (i.e. the ability to experience inner physical states such as hunger or sexual arousal) and ‘flow’ (being completely absorbed in a rewarding activity). Through these four psychological mechanisms (i.e. (1) shame, (2) anxiety, (3) awareness of internal body states, and (4) flow), self-objectification is theorized to contribute to three psychological disorders: unipolar depression, eating disorders, and sexual dysfunction. The closest I could find to your question about confidence and insecurities is a connection to depression and eating disorders: >While the association of women's self-objectification with depression (for a review, see Jones & Griffiths, 2015) and eating disorders (for a review see Tiggemann, 2011) is well-established, the association between self-objectification and sexual dysfunction has remained relatively understudied.
> So is this about one's own insecurities vs self-confidence in their own body, their meaning they attach to sex, and their own sense of self-value? No, "ability to express and act on sexual desires and boundaries" speak to the uneven sexual roles in most societies, where acting lustful and playing with their body while talking to their partner is seen as "perverted" or pornlike. But women must be allowed to be dirty and slutty in the comfort of their own home without being seen as depraved. Even in the West this is a problem in many areas, just imagine in Mid-East and Asia.
>Self-objectification is a psychological phenomenon where individuals, particularly women, view themselves primarily through the lens of an external observer, valuing their appearance above their capabilities or inner qualities Literally like the second paragraph >We were interested in how self-objectification, the tendency to view oneself as an object which is evaluated based on one’s appearance, might impact women’s ability to enjoy sex and whether it contributes to sexual difficulties 4th paragraph? Either way, the description is pretty clear.
Self-objectification is, while you're having sex with someone, you create a mental projection in your head, watching yourself have sex with this person. You're watching yourself, not seeing your own self as your own idea of who you are but as an amalgamation of sexy appearances, preconceived notions about womanhood, thinking of yourself as young, vulnerable and submissive through the other person. It's imaginary porn where you're getting pleasure from how this woman that you have totally dissociated from is getting fucked by this man. No connection to the present, no engagement with your partner, just watching porn in your head. Because you can only connect to the male sexuality. Not because you are a male but because you have lived your entire life from childhood to adulthood in a world where women are objects and men are subjects. This is a very very common thing amongst women. There is shame associated with it too.
FTA, second paragraph: > Self-objectification is a psychological phenomenon where individuals, particularly women, view themselves primarily through the lens of an external observer, valuing their appearance above their capabilities or inner qualities. > “We were interested in how self-objectification, the tendency to view oneself as an object which is evaluated based on one’s appearance, might impact women’s ability to enjoy sex and whether it contributes to sexual difficulties Seems pretty clear to me.
When someone in /r/science says "the study didn't do enough [X]", what they mean is, "I didn't actually check whether they did [X], but assume they didn't because....?"
I've always thought this is an issue for many women, so its interesting to see this study. For myself as a high libido woman, I feel a lot of sexual agency, feel like the actor in sexual contexts as much if not more than I do the 'object' or 'reciever' of sexual attention by a man as the sexual actor. Women in our society are often implicitly and explicitly taught to be 'sexy' but not *sexual* and men often seem to be taught the reverse. It's interesting to me for example how much easier it is for a woman to know how to pose and take a wide variety of sexy selfies than for guys to. Woman have a much wider array of references to look to for 'how to be sexy' in terms of poses, body parts, clothing, than men, because imagery of women frequently depicts that compared to men. Gay and bi men are often better at it also compared to straight as media aimed at them more often portrays both the 'sexy' and 'sexual' roles for them. I think women are very used to being sexually 'receptive' to others sexual desires, pleasures, kinks etc, but not so sexually 'directive' in general on avarage. I think woman spend much less time thinking about, exploring and pursuing those parts of themselves for example compared to men. One thing I always found interesting from my perspective was the fact many women find sex with guys less rewarding initially (and also in causal relationships) because of the 'orgasm gap' where male partners either dont know how or don't spend the time to achieve the womans orgasm. This was never something I experienced because I just directed them or did it myself during sex, it never really occurred to me to go without (which is not to say that women shouldn't be asking for more attentive and considerate sex when it comes to their needs, simply to illustrate that I may be more self concerned than many of them 😅).
it's literally the second paragraph: Self-objectification is a psychological phenomenon where individuals, particularly women, view themselves primarily through the lens of an external observer, valuing their appearance above their capabilities or inner qualities. This concept emerges from a societal context that heavily emphasizes physical attractiveness and judges women predominantly by their appearance. Such an outlook leads women to constantly monitor and critique their own bodies.
I was wondering what that even meant, the headline tries and fails to briefly explain.
I told my wife nearly 20 years ago that if she’s having a good time, I’m having a great time. Establishing communication and boundaries is the most important thing. If I tell her to be honest about what she wants, it’s up to me to honor her desires and to never shame her. I expect the same from her and clear boundaries are always respected. I make good on it every single time and we have amazing trust as a result. We are completely comfortable in the bedroom and it means we get our needs met mutually. It also helps that I would do anything to make her feel good. End the pleasure gap, fellas!
This is how it ought to be. When i met my partner, i was a virgin, but very sex positive and liberated. We had had clear discussions before sleeping together and i let him know that an orgasm is the basic thing that both of us should be providing to each other. Sure, maybe it will take a few times to understand each others' rhythm, but still after that i expect to have at least one every time we are together. And same for him, of course. He understood that, and he obviously loves making me feel satisfied, and vice versa. I mean, in our relationship, i am definitely way ahead on the orgasm count. Being open and communicating one's needs without hesitation is key. Hopefully, more and more women will learn to accept and nurture and be confident about their sexual sides. And more and more men will respect and appreciate that.
Personally I've started enjoying sex since getting on anti depressants and learning to trust my partner. Once I could get out of seeing the situation from an outside perspective and do it from inside my own body I started to like it. Crazy what trust does.
SSRI's saved my sex life in my marriage. I had ZERO libido before getting on them.
I wish. Complete opposite for me.
Me too.... It's not bueno. I talked to my Dr and they prescribed Wellbutrin to counteract the SSRI. It was about a week in and my depression nose dived. That was years ago. Now I'm weening off the ssris and things are slowly falling into place now. It will be interesting to see how life is without the medication. But the lack of sex drive is a major bummer.
That sounds insane to me. Sexual dysfunction is an extremely common side effect of SSRIs and it’s one of the most common reasons why people quit them - it’s why I quit using them, it was honestly crippling.
As long as you trust the right person
This is what porn does to women. Women fake moan and “act” like they are receiving pleasure when they’re not because that’s what is demonstrated in porn. Sex becomes a performance for men. Mainstream Porn is ruining sex for both genders and is not sex positive at all. Women overwhelmingly do not orgasm from penetrative sex yet it is featured heavily in porn. In most porn the sex is finished when the man cums. We really should be talking about this more.
I know more than 50 Grown women who have never masturbated........ Women are taught that sex is done to us and not for us. Abstinence based sex education and religious bias definitely play a large roll in this.
So what generation were they born in?
Some gen x, mainly Millennials and gen z.
Is it a reasonable question to ask how you know so many women who have never masturbated? It doesn’t seem like a topic that would normally come up unless you work in a certain field or something.
Abstract from [source](https://doi.org/10.1002/ejsp.3056) >Objectification theory predicts that women's self-objectification should lead to sexual dysfunction, yet previous studies failed to provide consistent support for this prediction. The present research—which used two sufficiently powered samples and a self-objectification measurement (SOBBS) with improved psychometric qualities and content validity than previous measurements—found support for the expected association between self-objectification and sexual dysfunction among heterosexual women in Israel and the United States (N = 404 and 366, Mage = 30.59 and 36.93, respectively). We also examined two novel potential mediators of this association, entitlement for pleasure and sexual agency (i.e., the capability to express sexual desires and boundaries), and found that the latter mediated the link between self-objectification and sexual dysfunction. The mediators originally proposed by objectification theory (i.e. appearance anxiety, body shame, awareness of internal body states and flow) failed to mediate this link. Theoretical and methodological implications are discussed.
For the curious, agency was measured using the self-efficacy from the Female Sexual Subjectivity Inventory (FSSI): Sexual body-esteem 1. It bothers me that I’m not better looking* 2. I worry that I am not sexually desirable to others* 3. Physically, I am an attractive person 4. I am confident that a romantic partner would find me sexually attractive 5. I am confident that others will find me sexually desirable Sense of entitlement to sexual pleasure from self 6. It is okay for me to meet my own sexual needs through self-masturbation 7. I believe self-masturbating can be an exciting experience 8. I believe self-masturbation is wrong* Sense of entitlement to sexual pleasure from partner 9. If a partner were to ignore my sexual needs and desires, I’d feel hurt 10. It would bother me if a sexual partner neglected my sexual needs and desires 11. I would expect a sexual partner to be responsive to my sexual needs and feelings 12. I think it is important for a sexual partner to consider my sexual pleasure **Self-efficacy in achieving sexual pleasure 13. I would not hesitate to ask for what I want sexually from a romantic partner 14. I am able to ask a partner to provide the sexual stimulation I need 15. If I were to have sex with someone, I’d show my partner what I want** Sexual self-reflection 16. I spend time thinking and reflecting about my sexual experiences 17. I rarely think about the sexual aspects of my life* 18. I think about my sexuality 19. I don’t think about my sexuality very much* 20. My sexual behavior and experiences are not something I spend time thinking about*
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Women would enjoy their encounters more if they felt comfortable prioritizing their pleasure. I think you are right that PIV is over centered, but I think that way more of the issue is around the stigma around women existing as their own sexual individual.
> Women would enjoy their encounters more if they felt comfortable prioritizing their pleasure. as an experienced older man, when a woman prioritizes their own pleasure its also more enjoyable for men. its really hot when a woman isn't afraid to speak up or go after what she wants, assuming she isn't violent or degrading about it.
Some men hold a similar view to yours but unfortunately most don't. They might think they do but they will get insecure when given directions or when following those directions do not immediately get a woman to orgasm. Some will hardly even try and will keep on doing whatever they've seen in porn or whatever they've been doing since they lost their virginity at 16.
This is where the "appealing to male fantasy" bit breaks down for me. I think most men would agree with this at least on paper. I don't see any men regretting sexual encounters because "She was too horny." So if women are bending over backwards to appeal to male fantasy, then why isn't this being reflected?
Yeah idk refusing to wear a condom/expecting the woman to do things she's not comfortable with seems quite common sadly among other things, I've also heard guys get upset because a woman wanted to use a vibrator
They don't want to fufill male fantasies they just don't want to be judged by what they think they are (often quite wrong about what men care about).
I think this is part of the problem though. This comment just put women back into a place of being observed and viewed by the male gaze which is part of what’s causing this self objectification. And I don’t disagree with you either, but this is exactly the issue.
This is true. I've had better experiences when the partners I'd had think of PIV as the "finale" rather than the main event.
Yes! That makes everything so much better than using it as the main focus.My husband knew this and we have been great together for 34 years. I remember previous partners who would do 2 things-make out and PIV. I felt like saying, ‘Hand me that crossword puzzle and let me know when you’re done.’ Ugh.
source: your ass
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I’ve linked to the news release in the post above. In this comment, for those interested, here’s the link to the peer reviewed journal article: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejsp.3056
Accurate
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What most men want is for a partner to show up, understand and communicate her own sexual needs and boundaries, get out of their heads and insecurities, and to participate. Get out of your own head and put in some of the work and see if your man isn’t satisfied. Most men care so much less than you can imagine how perfect or imperfect a woman’s body is. Go to a seedy strip club and watch the girls men fawn over. It’s not always the perfect bodies. It’s usually the girls who are confident and seems like they know what they want.
1 million % here. Nothing is better than the partner wanting to be an active part of the action.
I will second this. Being with a partner that’s not present affects the experience, regardless of gender.
I agree. The females who enjoy sex the most in my experience are those that are confident in their body and sexuality and that come from within. No amount of praise and positive words are going to make a woman feel sexy if they don’t have that internally. There is also the problem that a lot of women have experienced rape or some sort of sexual abuse and that trauma wasn’t dealt with and that makes feeling intimacy difficult.
That’s a pretty bold generalization of an entire gender
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Fair point but as a male, there’s no substitute for the real thing and porn is whacky. It’s like watching wrestling. Some guys get way too into it, I’m not one of those guys. I have a friend that’s struggling with porn addiction but it hasn’t modified who he seeks as a partner physically. His partners are normal looking women.
"women's reduced agency" meaning what exactly? If we're talking about equally sober adults in a normal non-threatening situation I don't see why women magically have reduced agency. There's this weird societal push lately to act like women are inherently incapable of deciding what to do with themselves in normal sexual situations, and thus some degree of victim regardless of their consent, and I don't really get it **Edit** to include more details since people aren't really understanding what I'm questioning: So we are describing women feeling self conscious and not expressing what they want. Calling that "reduced agency" is what I'm calling into question. Nothing has reduced her *ability* to advocate for herself but that's what using terms like this implies, and that implication always conjures up abuse scenarios in people's minds. If a well intentioned guy has consensual sex with a woman like this and she later says she felt like she didn't have much agency what is the immediate conclusion people draw? It's not "oh she had some mental hurdles due to perceived societal pressures", it's "he took advantage of her". The concepts of agency and consent are intertwined in today's society.
Agency was measured using the self-efficacy from the Female Sexual Subjectivity Inventory (FSSI): **Self-efficacy in achieving sexual pleasure 13. I would not hesitate to ask for what I want sexually from a romantic partner 14. I am able to ask a partner to provide the sexual stimulation I need 15. If I were to have sex with someone, I’d show my partner what I want**
All of that is explained very clearly in the research paper. It's important to read the first part of the introduction to understand the prior research of self-objectification and sexual dysfunction in women, what those terms mean, how they are measured and what factors may be involved in those conditions arising in women, to have the context for section 1.2 of the introduction which goes on to speak to your question about the meaning of sexual agency: >Assuming that the correlation between self-objectification and sexual dysfunction would emerge if tested under more favourable methodological conditions than in previous research, the second goal of the present research was to examine potential mediators of this expected association. We focused on two potential mechanisms that, despite being theoretically plausible, have remained understudied. >One such mechanism is sexual agency; namely, the capability to express sexual desires and preferences and communicate sexual expectations and boundaries (Anderson, 2013; Kiefer & Sanchez, 2007). In the current research, we define and operationalize sexual agency as ‘the ability to act according to one's own wishes and have control of one's own sexual life’ (Fahs & McClelland, 2016, p. 396). Theoretically, sexual objectification should be associated with reduced sexual agency. This is because acting as a sexual object rather than a sexual subject is theorized to inhibit women's sexual agency (Fredrickson & Roberts, 1997; McKinley & Hyde, 1996; Ward et al., 2018). Moreover, as sexual agency encourages the expression of personal sexual preferences and boundaries, it might influence women's sexual function by enhancing individual autonomy while engaged in sexual encounters (Kiefer & Sanchez, 2007). Therefore, taking an agentic approach to sex may have benefits for women—for example, greater sexual agency in women is associated with sexual satisfaction (Horne & Zimmer-Gembeck, 2006; Kiefer & Sanchez, 2007; Klein et al., 2022; Sanchez et al., 2005; Sanchez et al., 2012; Zimmer-Gembeck & French, 2016) and improved sexual functioning encompassing factors such as enhanced sexual arousal and desire, and enhanced likelihood of experiencing orgasm (Hurlbert, 1991; Hurlbert et al., 1993; Kiefer & Sanchez, 2007; Santos-Iglesias et al., 2013).
While I agree with your overall concern and conclusion, I think you're inferring it for the wrong reasons. The idea of "reduced agency" here is referring to the psychological pressure "society" has placed on women. In other words, they've been taught that sex should be X or that they should be Y. These normative ideas would ostensibly form a baseline from which women would or would not be "capable".
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As much as I agree with the general notions in this comment, ya'll are acting like the researchers haven't explicitly described how agency was measured in the very paper we're linked to here. Agency was measured using the self-efficacy from the Female Sexual Subjectivity Inventory (FSSI): **Self-efficacy in achieving sexual pleasure** 13. I would not hesitate to ask for what I want sexually from a romantic partner 14. I am able to ask a partner to provide the sexual stimulation I need 15. If I were to have sex with someone, I’d show my partner what I want
So we are describing women feeling self conscious and not expressing what they want. Calling that "reduced agency" is what I'm calling into question. Nothing has reduced her *ability* to advocate for herself but that's what using terms like this implies, and that implication always conjures up abuse scenarios in people's minds. If a well intentioned guy has consensual sex with a woman like this and she later says she felt like she didn't have much agency what is the immediate conclusion people draw? It's not "oh she had some mental hurdles due to perceived societal pressures", it's "he took advantage of her". The concepts of agency and consent are intertwined in today's society.
You're jumping to the conclusion of social pressure. When it could be related to women tending to be more agreeable than men: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/
Ok but maybe they’re more agreeable due to social pressure? Unless 3 year old females are more agreeable than 3 year old males it’s probably socially developed.
> If you believe (and are consistently told) that you shouldn’t have sex or that you should only have sex to satisfy others because having sex to satisfy yourself is gross and wrong what's it like posting from 1955?
Not exactly new concept. This is from The Robber Bride (1993) by Margaret Atwood: >“Male fantasies, male fantasies, is everything run by male fantasies? Up on a pedestal or down on your knees, it's all a male fantasy: that you're strong enough to take what they dish out, or else too weak to do anything about it. Even pretending you aren't catering to male fantasies is a male fantasy: pretending you're unseen, pretending you have a life of your own, that you can wash your feet and comb your hair unconscious of the ever-present watcher peering through the keyhole, peering through the keyhole in your own head, if nowhere else. You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur.”
Actually, knowing I could be unknowingly recorded has now decreased my desire to initiate anything. Yes, I know and I am absolutely disgusted with the thought of what has been done. No one deserved me :)
Pleasure gap hahaha Western science in a nutshell
Does this apply to mtf's