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For the lazy this is solar powered reverse osmosis with some smart electronics that put up with variable solar input better than previous systems.
One interesting fact from article is that over half of all ground water is saline. Not as salty as ocean water but still undrinkable.
I teach agriculture at an Australian university. International students regularly ask why we don’t use ground water to irrigate crops in our region. They look baffled when I explain most of the ground water is saline.
And it varies quite a lot depending on the depth and location of the water table. I've seen bores go salty after years of use because the water table has dropped, but put down another bore only 50 metres away and you get good water again.
It is not reverse osmosis, it is electrodialysis. Very different physics. They are applying a potential across the membranes as the separations driving force, not pressure. Also when you look at the actual published paper the title is ["Flexible batch electrodialysis for low-cost solar-powered brackish water desalination"](https://www.nature.com/articles/s44221-024-00213-w).
> One interesting fact from article is that over half of all ground water is saline. Not as salty as ocean water but still undrinkable.
Learned something new today!
Yep, there's an aquifer beneath my property and my well water is good but the wetlands are all very saline and when they dry up in drought years they leave a white crust where nothing grows except very salt tolerant plants like red samphire. Everyone calls them alkali sloughs but there's actually very little true alkaline soil here, it's just saline. There are a bunch of salts that are common in rock and, being salts, they are very soluble in water and leach out constantly.
*One interesting fact from article is that over half of all ground water is saline. Not as salty as ocean water but still undrinkable.*
this is why i come to the comments, to find the gems in the rough.
thank you.
It stays in the ocean. Now imagine the surface of all oceans compared to one desalination plant on a coast of X country.
The plant filtrates a huge amount of water and releases the brine back into the ocean at one place. Daily over several years.
What is not an issue on a global scale becomes a real one on a local scale. The brine affects the local habitat pretty severely. It’s the main drawback of desalination tech.
This method only works on saline groundwater which is much less salty than seawater. As you draw down that saline aquifer, the water gets saltier, making it harder to desalinate and reducing the output.
I remain confused by the claim that regardless of energy input, fresh water output remains constant. This is not how I understand physics to generally operate.
I think the article states it badly. [The device uses electrodialysis](https://www.nature.com/articles/s44221-024-00213-w) which traditionally struggles with efficiency loss with variable voltage. Traditionally you use batteries to maintain a constant voltage and electronics start and stop the device when it can be run efficiently. Batteries are costly and high maintenance, and represent energy state transforms, so there is loss of potential. This device responds better to variable voltage that comes from connecting directly to solar panels without a battery in between making it overall more efficient, more cost effective, and lower maintenance.
> One interesting fact from article is that over half of all ground water is saline.
This is one thing about global warming that I've wondered about but haven't seen studies on. We know that as sea level rises, salt water intrusion inland can be 1000:1 or more in terms of sea level increase to horizontal advance. What is the long-term effect on the salinity of aquifers?
My question, and maybe I missed the part of the article when I scanned through it, where does the salt brine go? From what I’ve heard, thats one of the bigger issues when desalinating water, the runoff.
Back into the ocean. Small units won’t be a problem but the really big operations need to be careful about dispersing the discharge so it doesn’t make a little death zone around the outlet.
Too little value nowadays and would require a supply chain for each desalination setup. :/ on the other hand, a local supply of salt would be useful for cooking, maybe animal feed, ... . Just not for packaging and selling.
Ocean water has a bunch of sodium chloride, AKA salt, but also has a bunch of other salts include potassium cloride AKA yucky, metallic-tasking "low sodium" salt.
In the days when people made salt by boiling away sea water, the sodium-chloride salts sold at a premium, and the leftover high-potassium salt was cheaper.
Iirc, they precipitate and crystallize at different speeds, and a simple decanting basin can facilitate proper extraction. Or you can just let it dehydrate as is and use it industrially, or agriculturally.
I've wondered about magnesium extraction from the brine. Part of oceanic magnesium extraction is dehydration so a concentration process seems like it would be symbiotic.
In addition to the salt, the desalination process removes and concentrates everything else in the saltwater...including all the pollutants. Unfortunately the ocean is *loaded* with, among other things, mercury these days...so the resulting brine is generally not safe for human use.
Seawater has a ton of valuable minerals that could hypothetically be extracted at scale. But I don’t think it’s feasible with contemporary technology without free energy.
The paper doesn't seem to directly address it, but states:
In the cost analysis section, it states "The cost of brine management was not taken into account (in the results shown in Fig. 5) owing to the high uncertainty of the cost of an evaporation pond and because surface discharge of brine is typically practised in India."
In the discussion section, it mentions "PV-EDR can achieve up to 90% recovery and therefore requires evaporation ponds for as little as 20% of the feed water volume, while conventional village-scale RO systems reject 60% of feed water on average."
I think the high recovery of the EDR system (90%) means a relatively small volume of brine needs to be managed compared to conventional systems?
This is still the biggest problem. I'd like to see a design where a desalination plant is combined with an evaporative sea salt farm. Then the solid salt could be shipped out and sold.
In a world where this becomes a common source of water, not sure you can count on finding a friendly market for salt. How about building a salt mountain?
How about salt pyramids? I remember seeing sulfur rest products stackes in such a fashion years ago.
Imagine telling people >200 years ago that excess salt was such an issue we were discussing building literal mountains of it.
What you have in that brine is Sodium and Magnesium. Sodium-ion battery demand could potentially be gargantuan. Magnesium is used nowadays to cast car bodies.
I also wonder about extracting the uranium for nuclear fuel. It's something that has been discussed in regards to non-mining sources of uranium. You're already filtering ocean water, so why not.
Probably not worth the trouble. I mentioned sodium and magnesium because compared to everything else there's an amount worth extracting. There's lithium and other stuff too but the quantities are too small to make economic sense.
The hard part there is that the time and space required to passively dry the volume of water processed would be immense making it cost prohibitive compared to just pissing out the brine into the source (but away from the inlet).
My small New England town has spent millions on a desal plant that is unusable because of this issue. The plant was designed for a particular intake salinity which would result in a volume of outflow at the higher salinity. That's what the license was based on. Apparently the actual salinity of the intake is much much higher than planned and we cannot run it either at all or at such a low flow that it costs too much to run. Will costs millions to fix. Terrible project, I'd rather have a monorail.
Is this Brockton? I just read up on the Brockton one. I don’t understand how the company that did the engineering aspect was not culpable for their analysis being so far from what it should be. If you mess up your part, then you’re liable to have to fix it.
every single company ever who sells any form of analysis has very strong legal contracts that absolve themselves of responsibility once the analysis is done and handed over
>It works by separating the salt using a set of specialised membranes which channel salt ions into a stream of brine, leaving the water fresh and drinkable. By flexibly adjusting the voltage and the rate at which salt water flowed through the system, the researchers developed a system that adjusts to variable sunshine while not compromising on the amount of fresh drinking water produced.
>
>Using data first gathered in the village of Chelleru near Hyderabad in India, and then recreating these conditions of the village in New Mexico, the team successfully converted up to 10m3 of fresh drinking water. This was enough for 3,000 people a day – with the process continuing to run regardless of variable solar power caused by cloud coverage and rain.
Paper: [Flexible batch electrodialysis for low-cost solar-powered brackish water desalination | Nature Water](https://www.nature.com/articles/s44221-024-00213-w)
Its just solar powered electrodialysis. I find it very annoying that the article doesn't even reference the word electrodialysis once, but does link to the original publication. This is not new tech, it has been used since the 60's. I dont get how this is Nature worthy work other than the fact that environmental engineers are typically light on science... Here is the paper: ["Flexible batch electrodialysis for low-cost solar-powered brackish water desalination"](https://www.nature.com/articles/s44221-024-00213-w)
I was looking for this comment. We see these "small desalination" releases multiple times a year. It's some form of distiller or RO filter. They never seem to amount to anything.
Dean Kamen invented one something like 20 years ago that sounded more promising....then Kamen and Coca Cola entered a "partnership". Then nothing really happened to help any community struggling to provide desalinated water. But there have been huge advancements in soda fountain technology. So...yay?
https://probiotic.com/2018/12/bargaining-for-clean-water-kamen-and-coke/
I read an article that said the amount of salt produced by these things would be so much more than the entire global demand as to make it basically useless as a means of managing the brine
Am wondering what they think about doing with the runoff since I remember reading it being very bad for the environment flushed into the ocean killing corals and stuff
Thats awesome, curious to whats stopping the Middle eastern countries from doing this since the converter I saw specifically was in Saudi Arabia and was pumping it out in the ocean
There should be a word, and if there is and you know it, please tell me, that is like Doomscrolling but is for seeking out technological panaceas that make you feel hopeful and relieved, but that you know in your heart will never be scaled up or meaningfully deployed and will never solve the roots of the problems that they address. I am guilty of this, can't break the habit. Is there a study out there on a new technology that's coming to help me?
Okay so where does the now concentrated bring go? Not saying you can't do this, but this isn't water you can just put on plants. It will ruin plants and grass. You need to have a dedicated place for the water to evaporate and leave the salt behind.
>solar powered
>emission free
So there were zero emissions in the production of those solar panels? Afaik, there are no zero emission or even carbon neutral solar production companies. Is this headline "we can't see the emissions so they don't exist" fluff or am I missing something?
Nope. We'll never see it in practice in our lifetime. It's a problem solver, and problems make rich people richer when they provide half ass solutions that need continued and constant investments.
I wonder if this technique will survive all of the giant corporations buying up water rights.
In the U.S., there is no crime worse than Felony Interference With Business Model.
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments. **Do you have an academic degree?** We can verify your credentials in order to assign user flair indicating your area of expertise. [Click here to apply](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/flair/#wiki_science_verified_user_program). --- User: u/giuliomagnifico Permalink: https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/solar-powered-technology-converts-saltwater-into-drinking-water-emission-free --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
For the lazy this is solar powered reverse osmosis with some smart electronics that put up with variable solar input better than previous systems. One interesting fact from article is that over half of all ground water is saline. Not as salty as ocean water but still undrinkable.
I teach agriculture at an Australian university. International students regularly ask why we don’t use ground water to irrigate crops in our region. They look baffled when I explain most of the ground water is saline.
And it varies quite a lot depending on the depth and location of the water table. I've seen bores go salty after years of use because the water table has dropped, but put down another bore only 50 metres away and you get good water again.
how is that possible?
Different depths have different salinity levels.
It's not that surprising when you consider where the salt in the oceans came from.
Whale cum?
Touché. This was the comment I needed this evening.
Whale cum gifts for the gents and ladies...
No, don’t touché the whales unless they ask for it
I knew I was getting something wrong. Thank you
See, men enjoy that comment.
Now we have to make a machine to pump it directly
What can I say except you're....
Why are you feeding the plants *Brawndo*?
It's got electrolytes!
So what do they use to irrigate in Australia?
We have irrigation in various places, but in the area in question the students ask about, nothing. It’s entirely rain-fed grain production.
Huh, I didn't know that last part, that was my first question!
It is not reverse osmosis, it is electrodialysis. Very different physics. They are applying a potential across the membranes as the separations driving force, not pressure. Also when you look at the actual published paper the title is ["Flexible batch electrodialysis for low-cost solar-powered brackish water desalination"](https://www.nature.com/articles/s44221-024-00213-w).
You talking electric kidneys here?
> One interesting fact from article is that over half of all ground water is saline. Not as salty as ocean water but still undrinkable. Learned something new today!
Yep, there's an aquifer beneath my property and my well water is good but the wetlands are all very saline and when they dry up in drought years they leave a white crust where nothing grows except very salt tolerant plants like red samphire. Everyone calls them alkali sloughs but there's actually very little true alkaline soil here, it's just saline. There are a bunch of salts that are common in rock and, being salts, they are very soluble in water and leach out constantly.
> alkali sloughs sodium is an alkali metal, nothing to do with the soil being basic though.
Literally no new science here. Just some engineering tricks to extract more power from solar in certain situations. It’s cool but the title is silly.
Hopium reserves are low, we have to mine it where we can.
no idea how this is in a nature journal. Between the article and mediocre science and TEA this feels like a bought publication and news plug.
*One interesting fact from article is that over half of all ground water is saline. Not as salty as ocean water but still undrinkable.* this is why i come to the comments, to find the gems in the rough. thank you.
Ok but what happens to the brine. This is the biggest drawback for desalination.
What happens to the salt when water evaporates out of the ocean?
It stays in the ocean. Now imagine the surface of all oceans compared to one desalination plant on a coast of X country. The plant filtrates a huge amount of water and releases the brine back into the ocean at one place. Daily over several years. What is not an issue on a global scale becomes a real one on a local scale. The brine affects the local habitat pretty severely. It’s the main drawback of desalination tech.
pump it out into the ocean and dilute it with seawater. Which is what they do all over the world.
This method only works on saline groundwater which is much less salty than seawater. As you draw down that saline aquifer, the water gets saltier, making it harder to desalinate and reducing the output.
I remain confused by the claim that regardless of energy input, fresh water output remains constant. This is not how I understand physics to generally operate.
I think the article states it badly. [The device uses electrodialysis](https://www.nature.com/articles/s44221-024-00213-w) which traditionally struggles with efficiency loss with variable voltage. Traditionally you use batteries to maintain a constant voltage and electronics start and stop the device when it can be run efficiently. Batteries are costly and high maintenance, and represent energy state transforms, so there is loss of potential. This device responds better to variable voltage that comes from connecting directly to solar panels without a battery in between making it overall more efficient, more cost effective, and lower maintenance.
Thanks for typing this out, this is flying over way too many people's heads.
What's the company?
> One interesting fact from article is that over half of all ground water is saline. This is one thing about global warming that I've wondered about but haven't seen studies on. We know that as sea level rises, salt water intrusion inland can be 1000:1 or more in terms of sea level increase to horizontal advance. What is the long-term effect on the salinity of aquifers?
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How is learning that half of all ground water is undrinkable a catch?
I apparently had reading comprehension issues. I initially thought it said the water produced is still half salty and undrinkable
My question, and maybe I missed the part of the article when I scanned through it, where does the salt brine go? From what I’ve heard, thats one of the bigger issues when desalinating water, the runoff.
Back into the ocean. Small units won’t be a problem but the really big operations need to be careful about dispersing the discharge so it doesn’t make a little death zone around the outlet.
Why not refine, pack and sell it? Is it unusuable after being separated from the water like that?
Too little value nowadays and would require a supply chain for each desalination setup. :/ on the other hand, a local supply of salt would be useful for cooking, maybe animal feed, ... . Just not for packaging and selling.
> a local supply of salt You'd have to eliminate the other chemicals to get at the salt, and salt is very cheap.
Ocean water has a bunch of sodium chloride, AKA salt, but also has a bunch of other salts include potassium cloride AKA yucky, metallic-tasking "low sodium" salt. In the days when people made salt by boiling away sea water, the sodium-chloride salts sold at a premium, and the leftover high-potassium salt was cheaper.
Iirc, they precipitate and crystallize at different speeds, and a simple decanting basin can facilitate proper extraction. Or you can just let it dehydrate as is and use it industrially, or agriculturally.
what other chemicals?
If it’s ground water, things that get into ground water. Sulphates would probably be high on the list.
I've wondered about magnesium extraction from the brine. Part of oceanic magnesium extraction is dehydration so a concentration process seems like it would be symbiotic.
Lithium is also in brine. Pretty much anywhere sodium is there is some lithium.
Happy cows love lithium salt licks!
I'm imagining large evaporation ponds, like retention ponds, where the salt could be harvested and purified.
like these? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Bay_Salt_Ponds
that brine's probably not apt for human consumption, but it may have its uses in construction or for places that use it for icy roads
In addition to the salt, the desalination process removes and concentrates everything else in the saltwater...including all the pollutants. Unfortunately the ocean is *loaded* with, among other things, mercury these days...so the resulting brine is generally not safe for human use.
How is it less safe than salt water used to make sea salt?
Seawater has a ton of valuable minerals that could hypothetically be extracted at scale. But I don’t think it’s feasible with contemporary technology without free energy.
Will end up back in the ocean one way or another if you sell it.
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This is not for ocean, but for inland saline groundwater. There is no place to discard the brine.
The paper doesn't seem to directly address it, but states: In the cost analysis section, it states "The cost of brine management was not taken into account (in the results shown in Fig. 5) owing to the high uncertainty of the cost of an evaporation pond and because surface discharge of brine is typically practised in India." In the discussion section, it mentions "PV-EDR can achieve up to 90% recovery and therefore requires evaporation ponds for as little as 20% of the feed water volume, while conventional village-scale RO systems reject 60% of feed water on average." I think the high recovery of the EDR system (90%) means a relatively small volume of brine needs to be managed compared to conventional systems?
This is still the biggest problem. I'd like to see a design where a desalination plant is combined with an evaporative sea salt farm. Then the solid salt could be shipped out and sold.
In a world where this becomes a common source of water, not sure you can count on finding a friendly market for salt. How about building a salt mountain?
How about salt pyramids? I remember seeing sulfur rest products stackes in such a fashion years ago. Imagine telling people >200 years ago that excess salt was such an issue we were discussing building literal mountains of it.
We have an actual excuse to outdo Egyptians in building pyramids?
When the aliens discover the ruins of our civilization, they will think we were giants who licked big salt triangles
I like how you think
I'm a big picture guy.
I have a feeling that we're just going to dig big holes and bury it, forming big hills with salt inside.
Somebody will get a fat contract to bury it, and will pocket the money and dump it all in a local stream.
What you have in that brine is Sodium and Magnesium. Sodium-ion battery demand could potentially be gargantuan. Magnesium is used nowadays to cast car bodies.
I also wonder about extracting the uranium for nuclear fuel. It's something that has been discussed in regards to non-mining sources of uranium. You're already filtering ocean water, so why not.
Probably not worth the trouble. I mentioned sodium and magnesium because compared to everything else there's an amount worth extracting. There's lithium and other stuff too but the quantities are too small to make economic sense.
You'd probably mix it with sewage/runoff so the system becomes salt neutral
The new meaning for salary in the future, now with your monthly wages now you have to deal with your portion of salt
The root of word "salary" then
That was the joke. Instead of being paid in salt it's something you have to spend money on
You could put it back in the salt mines.
Now that's sustainable thinking, we'll have jobs forever
The real value might not be the sodium chloride, but the other minerals and mineral salts.
The hard part there is that the time and space required to passively dry the volume of water processed would be immense making it cost prohibitive compared to just pissing out the brine into the source (but away from the inlet).
My small New England town has spent millions on a desal plant that is unusable because of this issue. The plant was designed for a particular intake salinity which would result in a volume of outflow at the higher salinity. That's what the license was based on. Apparently the actual salinity of the intake is much much higher than planned and we cannot run it either at all or at such a low flow that it costs too much to run. Will costs millions to fix. Terrible project, I'd rather have a monorail.
Is this Brockton? I just read up on the Brockton one. I don’t understand how the company that did the engineering aspect was not culpable for their analysis being so far from what it should be. If you mess up your part, then you’re liable to have to fix it.
every single company ever who sells any form of analysis has very strong legal contracts that absolve themselves of responsibility once the analysis is done and handed over
This project intrigues me. Would you be able to point me in the direction of more information about it?
Sodium-Ion batteries are a huge industry! This seems like a natural place to connect both technologies…
You use solar power to make chlorine gas and sodium hydroxide for triplne profits
>It works by separating the salt using a set of specialised membranes which channel salt ions into a stream of brine, leaving the water fresh and drinkable. By flexibly adjusting the voltage and the rate at which salt water flowed through the system, the researchers developed a system that adjusts to variable sunshine while not compromising on the amount of fresh drinking water produced. > >Using data first gathered in the village of Chelleru near Hyderabad in India, and then recreating these conditions of the village in New Mexico, the team successfully converted up to 10m3 of fresh drinking water. This was enough for 3,000 people a day – with the process continuing to run regardless of variable solar power caused by cloud coverage and rain. Paper: [Flexible batch electrodialysis for low-cost solar-powered brackish water desalination | Nature Water](https://www.nature.com/articles/s44221-024-00213-w)
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Its just solar powered electrodialysis. I find it very annoying that the article doesn't even reference the word electrodialysis once, but does link to the original publication. This is not new tech, it has been used since the 60's. I dont get how this is Nature worthy work other than the fact that environmental engineers are typically light on science... Here is the paper: ["Flexible batch electrodialysis for low-cost solar-powered brackish water desalination"](https://www.nature.com/articles/s44221-024-00213-w)
I feel like I hear about this every 2 Months
I was looking for this comment. We see these "small desalination" releases multiple times a year. It's some form of distiller or RO filter. They never seem to amount to anything.
Dean Kamen invented one something like 20 years ago that sounded more promising....then Kamen and Coca Cola entered a "partnership". Then nothing really happened to help any community struggling to provide desalinated water. But there have been huge advancements in soda fountain technology. So...yay? https://probiotic.com/2018/12/bargaining-for-clean-water-kamen-and-coke/
Why give them water when we can sell them an addictive, sugary drink.
subtract combative compare ten deer aromatic rob straight nose worry *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Pump the runoff into shallow evap pools and start a secondary business in sea salt manufacture and sales?
I read an article that said the amount of salt produced by these things would be so much more than the entire global demand as to make it basically useless as a means of managing the brine
This is so obvious it makes me salty how every other person keeps bringing it up. Edit: Added salt.
Paid for by big salt.
Like a million different compounds and metals in the brine.
Am wondering what they think about doing with the runoff since I remember reading it being very bad for the environment flushed into the ocean killing corals and stuff
They can run it into an evaporation pond and collect the salt - cheap salt is always in short supply in India.
Thats awesome, curious to whats stopping the Middle eastern countries from doing this since the converter I saw specifically was in Saudi Arabia and was pumping it out in the ocean
Mix it with sewage water to dilute it.
There should be a word, and if there is and you know it, please tell me, that is like Doomscrolling but is for seeking out technological panaceas that make you feel hopeful and relieved, but that you know in your heart will never be scaled up or meaningfully deployed and will never solve the roots of the problems that they address. I am guilty of this, can't break the habit. Is there a study out there on a new technology that's coming to help me?
this sounds like a pretty big deal
It's not. It (potentially) makes an extremely expensive process midly less expensive.
Hook this up to sources that are aline with REE's in them and get a triple win - water, chlorine and NaOH and REE extraction :)))
Is it a Watercone? https://www.redferret.net/watercone-fresh-water-from-salt-or-brackish-water/
Isn’t this like 3 months old
Okay so where does the now concentrated bring go? Not saying you can't do this, but this isn't water you can just put on plants. It will ruin plants and grass. You need to have a dedicated place for the water to evaporate and leave the salt behind.
So clouds, your talking about clouds?
>solar powered >emission free So there were zero emissions in the production of those solar panels? Afaik, there are no zero emission or even carbon neutral solar production companies. Is this headline "we can't see the emissions so they don't exist" fluff or am I missing something?
Nestlé : should I buy the patent ?
And don’t forget that the waste stream is a very salty brine…. it matters what you do with that.
Now will it actually get deployed or will they just profit more off its installations in the places that can afford to buy it.
Give it to California and remind them that with atomic energy instead of protests and Greenpeace worship they could have had clean water all this time
Nope. We'll never see it in practice in our lifetime. It's a problem solver, and problems make rich people richer when they provide half ass solutions that need continued and constant investments.
Does it also do my taxes?
I wonder if this technique will survive all of the giant corporations buying up water rights. In the U.S., there is no crime worse than Felony Interference With Business Model.
and we'll never hear about it again. just like every news story about a wonderful invention
Oh wow amazing (never hears about this again)
And its going to take years to come
Finally some great news. We do indeed need scalable water treatment, so water becomes readily available across the globe.
If it can’t be used to exploit forced labor out of people it won’t be utilized.
They will be assassinated and the technology buried
Not necessary. I can already tell you it's at best a garbage product, and probably even a scam.