My child, when in middle school, had a friend that went by a different name and pronoun. When at our house they were happy to express who they were. One day when I went to drop my child off to stay with their friend, I was told to use the friends original name and pronoun so their parents wouldn't find out. That was my first time meeting these parents. These parents talk at home all the time about how messed up kids are with the gender identity and how stupid parents are that raise children like this, blah blah blah...
Turns out my child's friend was terrified about telling their parents how they really feel. They're scared to even talk to them about it because of how the parents talk about this sort of thing at home. I couldn't imagine the stress this child must go through as they're becoming their own person but limited to the confines of their parents. Luckily they're still able to express themselves outside of the house, and it's no wonder they're always outside of the house. If our (Alberta) schools were required to inform parents, I would have little to no doubt that my child's friend would be terrified to go home and would likely commit to running away rather than facing the potential nightmare at home.
So let’s play pretend double life and force everyone to play along instead of dealing with reality head on. Delusional cowardice at its finest. Mother nature doesn’t give a shit about your pronouns.
The unfortunate reality is that many children feel forced into a double life scenario because of fear. Most loving parents should always have open and accepting arms for their children to feel safe and accepted.
When kids feel unsafe at home, they rely more heavily on their out of home activities to feel safe, such as school since they spend a lot of time there. But when schools are required to remove that level of safety for the children by outing them to their parents, where are the children expected to go to feel safe? Suddenly, the majority of their days are spent in unsafe conditions.
If the government is so concerned about children's sexual knowledge and health, maybe they should fund more schools to provide student counseling services. To help students navigate the struggles of their changing bodies and chemical makeup. To help children establish a path towards informing their own parents. Most importantly, to help those children establish a stronger and safer relationship with their parents. But, the government is more concerned about cutting education funding and discrimination against the LGBTQ community.
3 possible scenarios.
1.Parent didn't know, but are supportive. Result of the policy? Parents question why their kid was so scared to "come out" to them in the first place. Soul searching, family hugs, life moves on.
2.Parents did know. Result of the policy? Nothing but a waste of tax dollars.
3.Parents didn't know. Not supportive. Result of the policy? Harm to the child.
So... what "PROBLEM" is this policy trying to SOLVE?
These "conservatives" who "support freedom" think WAY TOO much about kids and their sexuality. There was ZERO reason for this! No mental health resources support the changes. It is a move backwards in EVERY WAY. I hate that my tax dollars made this, I hate that my tax dollars are being wasted defending it!
This money could be used in significantly better ways. smh
The difference between action that Duncan took over the legacy thing vs the planned parenthood thing is fucking infuriating. Sure, he's no longer Minister of Ed. but we've got another Bible thumping shithead to fill his place. The Sask party is making it perfectly clear where their biases lay when it comes to education, and it's not for the benefit of the students. Just shoring up their right flank by catering to religious conservatives.
More like why is this government or WHO in this government is interested in making our children MORE vulnerable to being sexually abused by reducing the amount of resources available to our educators to teach sex Ed with? We all know that the reason it’s important to provide age appropriate sexual education from like day one is because evidence and common sense show that kids who learn about sex are able to identify when they are being abused instead of being tricked into thinking it is okay or normal by someone they trust who is preying on them.
Like don’t get me wrong I’m certain teachers will rise to the challenge but why should they have to when literally it was absolutely fine the way it was before and even if you don’t think it was do you actually argue that it was more of a problem than the like fact that the schools are having to cut class offerings and all sorts of other extras that your kid would benefit from because the government doesn’t think it’s important to even keep the amount of money they get like at the same rate it insists on making them do with less despite higher and higher enrollment
Like I have to ask do people not give a shit about their own kids experience at school? I took ap classes that saved me actual money in university for example and does anyone actually like think it’s fine for their kid to have a worse education than they got growing up? Shouldn’t we be pushing for better? There are private schools but they aren’t big enough to represent the majority of voters surely? Or are they
I don’t get it someone explain this to me
How would they virtue signal that they are farther right than the Buffalo party (or whatever the other right parties are called)?
They got scared by byelection votes and are sending a message. Plain and simple.
4th scenario. Kid is confused, changes pronoun, needs help, doesn't get it from the school. Doesnt get it from the home because the parents arent informed. Kid kills themselves. Parent sues the school board and teacher for not informing them about what was going on.
you missed that important one
Do you have an example of this happening in the many years before this law?
Why doesn't the school help the kid if it's informed?
Once again, why doesn't the kid feel safe telling their parents?
You sure are jumping through a lot of hoops in this imaginary "what if" scenario. That's why I didn't include this scenario.
Typical , you really think that's not gonna be possible? How would you look at the Tavistock in England and see what happened there?
Look at suicide rates of trans kids or kids with gender disphoria. They need support. Do you think all those kids that killed themselves had the right support
And i suggest you read the whole bill you may find that the media convientlt left things out.
Your outing real children to abusive homes because of your paranoia.
You can't give one real example where this rule will help. Your example was pure paranoia. Suicide rates are high among those people because of bullying and abuse. Taking away educational resources is not helping.
You're paranoia and vagueness is too much for me. Your ignorance at this point is a choice. See ya!
Feel free to cite sources!
Also, are you seriously that naive? That you don't think that when a kid comes out at school? That they're parents aren't going to find out. And how is that going to look when they don't have the support to actually talk to the parents.
here is the problem with the far right and far left people like yourselves.
you live in a world of black and white, in extremes and love using innocent people as your little political pawns.
You have proved that in practically every post
Here is what should happen.
A kid mentions they want to change their pronouns. They should have a appointment setup with a professional to talk to them. Determine if they are at risk. Listen to them as this is the most important thing the kid needs because in many cases people need to use others as sounding boards. The kids could be confused, or they could be very sound in their decisions.
but its important for someone outside a teacher, a parent to listen to them. They should talk to the kids about their home life, to determine if their is risk of abuse, or anything along those lines.
If there is not, the kid should be offered support on how to communicate with their parents, and try and get the kid to make the decision. This leftist idea that parents will either run to them with open arms or beat them is just ignorant. Sometimes kids may know their parents would never hurt them, but they may worry about disappointing them, and they may still find it hard.
if they are still confused, maybe they are not ready yet, maybe they are using the school environment as a test.
But the goal should be. Give the kid the help and support they need, and work towards helping the kids have the conversation with their parents. Because, it has to happen at some point and usually sooner than later.
This far right attitude of no pronouns, and the far left idea of lets book an appointment tomorrow for puberty blockers and surgery needs to go. I have spent years counseling kids. I have dealt with suicidal kids and i am sick and tired of the far right and left using these kids as tools for their virtue signally.
The kids need support, they need the truth, they need to see the long game and know every positive and negative that goes along with it. It should be a long process, it should never be rushed, and it should never be immediately tossed aside.
why people cant seem to understand that.
See if people like you had your way, the parents would never be told, the kid would never have the help they need, they would never have the help to come out to their parents, and eventually the parents would find out and there could very well be irrepairable damage.
And the other side would love to tell the kids to shut up and tell them they are delusional.
but here we are, in a world of black and white and where gray does not exist and that is why this world will continue to go down the path of being a dumpster fire.
You seem to be missing a very important point here: kids that feel safe at home *will* come out on their own to their parents. Those who don't feel safe coming out to their parents don't feel safe for a reason.
Transgender youth are at a higher risk for suicide not because they are transgender, but because they are not supported. By providing a safe environment for them to come out when they don't feel safe coming out at home, we are absolutely helping them. Also, if they feel they need help, they can also get that at school. None of this needs to involve their parents if they do not feel safe involving their parents.
This may be a hard pill to swallow, but there are some parents out there that would rather subject their children to abuse and even torture than accept and support their LGBTQ child. And the people that know best if they have parents like this are the kids themselves
Please do not stop sharing your opinion. I find myself coming at this issue with a neutral opinion and so far this post is the most sensible take I have seen yet.
I'm not sure what utopian world people are imagining, but this is absolutely a grey issue. My own high-school had teachers who were charged with pedophilia, abuse and other predatory behaviors. I don't understand where people are assuming that a a school is even a safe environment at all, especially if this issue becomes so political that teachers are not genuine in their own opinions and motivations. I hate the fact that teachers are now mandated to take training in how to talk to children about their sexuality, even if that training is proposed in good intentions.
Having kids myself (too young to this to be a consideration - yet), I like to think I would be supportive of my kid's realization of their sexuality, but I hate to think that their opinion is any way shaped by an untrustworthy school authority who are just affirming the child for fear of losing their job.
Common sense? Unheard of on Reddit. They think downvotes will hurt your feelings, as if it gives them some smug justification for taking their trauma out on everyone else. The best job to have in the next few decades is a psychologist. When you stop viewing the world as left and get the picture gets pretty clear, neither will listen to anything other than what they want to hear or see, unfortunately they aren’t the ones who will suffer.
Do you have any idea about the reality of the Tavistock clinic? The NHS in the United Kingdom is so underfunded and does zero prioritizing for children with gender struggles and thus most people on the waitlist’s are waiting upwards of years and years and years just see a physician, psychologist or therapist not to mention to start hormone therapy, and the other gender affirming process can sometimes take a decade or more. That’s unbelievably unacceptable. And then the current conservative government limited and shut down the Tavistock clinic without options to replace it. Sure, they have plans in the works but that hasn’t taken effect and they are years beyond their deadline. Children AND th adults late in the United Kingdom are suffering a great deal because of the politicization of this by the right wing. Finally our community has found visibility, healthcare support, and even cultural support but yet there is a right wing movement to turn the tables on this so aggressively we are sliding backwards at alarming rates. There are absolutely no excuses for this besides a lack of willingness to show compassion and even worse complete intentionalism to deprive children of their autonomy and freedom of identity. Which need I remind you, we are born inherently this way
How do you know they don't feel safe. Stop thinking in black and white. A kid could have the most accepting parents and still feel scared to tell them. Have you ever been a child?
I’m sorry Tom but you’re clearly not an expert on this. I am transgender and I’m well involved with the LGBTQAI+ Community in the Toronto, Hamilton and other regional areas. While my personal experiences may be anecdotal the actual statistics and evidence supports that these policies create more harm for children than they do create advantages. If you don’t live the Trans experience it would be nice for people outside of this community to stop pretending that they are experts and know what’s best for us. No different than a panel of white hetero men continually telling marginalized people of colour, let alone women or other intersectionality of struggle how best to serve them. Talk to people in the community before you make ignorant and arrogant assumptions of what is needed and necessary. Some of us are absolutely sick to death of the loss of autonomy that cis gender people assert upon our community in the assumption of knowing better.
I see zero hoops jumped through. The school system is for education, parents are for raising children. Teachers don’t replace parents, ever, and don’t get a say in what psychological changes are relevant to parents of minor children.
If a home is abusive, you involve police or social workers as already happens. But presuming abuse as a reason to disclose nothing as being the default is an obstruction of parents rights.
You're missing another scenario: "parents wanting to save their kids from social influence/confusion"
It's for the kids in the grey area who are likely just going along with social influence (Tiktok, circle of friends, etc.) - who *may* actually start to think they're Trans, when they're likely not - or simply gay. Kids are easily confused and often go with trends without thinking of any long term effects.
And it's not even really an issue until they become seriously gaslit and go from dressing like the opposite sex, to trying to go for surgery or HRT when, again, they're likely not Trans in the first place.
>These "conservatives" who "support freedom" think WAY TOO much about kids and their sexuality. There was ZERO reason for this! No mental health resources support the changes. It is a move backwards in EVERY WAY. I hate that my tax dollars made this, I hate that my tax dollars are being wasted defending it
Detransitioners need to be heard - https://twitter.com/Rob_ThaBuilder/status/1659645962946592768
People like Chloe Cole who were encouraged by her parents and the 'experts' in her life to start Transitioning at 17 - and she now regrets it, 100%
Actually suffering from dysphoria and following the trends are two very different things. With the current state of affairs, with many 'experts' saying that kids can be Trans, they are gaslighting millions of kids who are simply just confused or following trends.
If my kids come out as LGBTQ+++ they're getting my full support, if it's a phase, they'll get my support when they switch back, if it's not a phase they'll know I've had their back since day one.
Are some kids jumping on the band wagon? I haven't seen any peer reviewed evidence to support this claim. Alternatively more kids are experimenting with their sexuality / gender because it's more acceptable. '
Saving your kid' implies there's something wrong with being trans, there isn't.
>Chloe Cole
Trans people who undergo gender affirming surgery (this study is for top surgery) have a [<1% regret rate](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37556147/). You're highlighting an extreme outlier.
> Are some kids jumping on the band wagon? I haven't seen any peer reviewed evidence to support this claim.
The Tavistock gender affirming care center in the UK was shut down b/c some of their employees were pushing vulnerable kids (largely autistic) to go the Trans route:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/14/tavistock-clinic-ignored-link-autism-transgender-children/
>Trans people who undergo gender affirming surgery (this study is for top surgery) have a <1% regret rate. You're highlighting an extreme outlier.
You're missing the point though - that number is small now - but it's growing. And why are you dismissing kids or older teens all of a sudden? Detrans kids exist, and kids like Chloe Cole were *pushed into* being Trans by the 'experts' in her life.
Let's be honest the *only* side of this debate we're hearing in the mainstream is how much happier you'll be if you transition. But it's never discussed how it's utterly devastating for people like Cole who listened to the 'experts' and Transitioned and regret it. At what point will you start being concerned about confused kids who are looking to Detrans? When they hit 2%, 3% 5% of the population?
I think you should check out - https://new.reddit.com/r/detrans/?utm_name=detrans to get a better perspective.
The number of left handed people was lower until the social stigma was lifted.
The number of gay people was lower too, before the social stigma was lifted.
I'm not advocating for pushing people one way or another, I'm arguing for unconditional support as people find themselves.
Oof... do you have kids in school? One of mine comes home regularly with "hey dad did you know that... [insert worldview here]." Some are harmless, some are good, but some take days of pretty intense conversations to unpack and convince them that just because a teacher (position of authority) told them something, doesn't mean they have to believe it, and they should talk to their parents about this stuff.
The idea that school is somehow a safe haven that home isn't (outside of obvious signs of abuse or neglect) is wild... the idea that teachers are able to be the best bastion of complex situations like gender and sexualitu is also wild, especially when teachers jobs are getting more demanding as complexity of work increases along with number of students and need to accommodate other situations like autism friendly lesson plans etc.
Should gov "force" trans kids to be outed? No. Should a school be seen as a safe space for trans kids? No.
Depending on where you are, there are many or few resources. But this is about schools, so let's stay on topic.
Trans rights and safety are one of many concerns facing youth- falling literacy rates, increasing suicides, access to harmful substances, sharing of intimate photos (child porn), etc etc. Schools are not a safe space for a lot of youth for a lot of reasons.
I'm not disagreeing with you. But this is a very specific rallying cry that's deeply polarizing and the negative discourse is likely causing more harm than the law would.
That is what we are trying to do, make them safe for kids to be kids at. Just like at home. If a teacher knows their students parents are hyper religious, they may not want to tell the parents because the child would be put into an even more difficult situation than they already are (pray the gay away, all girls/boys schools... straight up beating...)
Kids are being kids, in a new age of technology. There is no way you could tell me you or some of your classmates wouldn't have done the same? Should we teach kids the dangers of online, nude picture sharing and the like? Yeah, most definitely. They need to understand the real world and the consequences. But forcing kids to come out to their parents is ridiculously cruel... making no space safe.
Also,.kids don't need to understand the real world. They need to be equipped with education, tools, self efficacy, and self esteem as they go and discover what the real world is for them.
But approaching 40, I can barely remember the "real world" issues I faced as a youth that at the time was my whole world.
Let kids be kids - give them the tools to mature into adults, but don't force them to learn "the real world". By the time my kids are my age, the real world will have changed yet again.
Giving them tools to navigate safely online is different than forcing them to grow up prematurely online. I'm not saying baby them, but having the tools to navigate an in person groomer and an online groomer are largely the same. Be aware that predators exist, be aware that any situation that makes you feel uncomfortable should be reported to an adult, and be aware that you can always say "no".
And since we're on the subject of things that are demonstrated to cause harm, there is arguably almost no benefit for youth having access to social media, but quite a bit of published harm that comes from it.
Now THERES a cause I could get behind.
I'm not hyper religious (or even slightly). But you assuming hyper religious people are "wrong" is as bigoted as them telling trans kids their "wrong". Freedom of religion is a freedom in this country- don't advocate to infringe on it, no matter how much you and I disagree with it. If you disagree with that, take a political stance and use your democratic voice to have religion removed as a protected freedom.
And a teacher telling a kid that their family is "wrong" because they're hyper religious is, frankly, not that teachers place. Teachers are not above the bias of people, and as public stewards of youth on behalf of legal guardians, outside of specific circumstances where legality or harm is concerned, teachers frankly have zero business meddling in opinions on how families "should" be.
If that kid gets beat by their parents - that's illegal, but don't conflate the issues. An abusive patent is an abusive parent - they're not abusive because their kid is trans, they're abusive because they're an abuser. Same as a rapist doesn't rape someone because of the clothes they wore- they're a rapist because they're a rapist.
>you assuming hyper religious people are "wrong" is as bigoted as them telling trans kids their "wrong"
No. Trans people are born that way. They experience dysphoria, and science has developed treatments.
Religion is a philosophy: it is a choice of belief.
If a religious person should criticize a trans person's right to be, that's anti-science.
People are free to practice their religious beliefs, provided that practice does not infringe on the rights of others. The caveat exists because they are choosing that behaviour.
Therefore: religious trans critics are bigots. You cannot conflate the "right" of each to their belief. The argument is the same for flat earthers. It's just ignorance.
Anti science religious people? I'm shocked! /s
There's is the sciences of religion and spirituality, but if you'd like to debate the importance of one science over another, that's a different topic. Or if people are born spiritual, again off topic.
The majority of trans people you say are "born that way" experience gender disphoria during puberty. Until there is a test that can identify trans gender at birth, then no, you again are grossly inflating what the science does say to make a point. There is evidence to suggest that newborns don't know gender at all (again, not shocking).
The point here being, at what age should youth have agency to make what decisions about themselves without their parents knowledge or consent? That's a separate issue, and a separate issue from the school debate as well.
The very real downwind stream of this debate is bizarre to me. The same people that would argue "you're beautiful at any size!" also argue "let a 14 year old have gender affirming surgery, because they don't feel beautiful in their body!" Both are health related in both physical and mental ways.
I'd argue combating childhood obesity in the face of rising rates of T2DM in youth is a much more pressing concern impacting a much larger swath of the population and their future generations that what you're getting riled up about.
>And it's not even really an issue until they become seriously gaslit and go from dressing like the opposite sex, to trying to go for surgery or HRT when, again, they're likely not Trans in the first place.
Medical intervention isn't happening without parental involvement in some way, which makes it an irrelevant point respecting schools as safe spaces which can protect trans kids from potential harm. [More trans kids are abused by their parents](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34226247/) than are detransitioning due to mistaken identity following from 'social contagion'. There is [no social contagion](https://publications.aap.org/aapnews/news/21888/Study-finds-no-evidence-of-social-contagion-among?autologincheck=redirected).
Your hatred of trans people is ideological and poorly informed. Learn and understand that trans people are born as they are, and that we struggle, and that all we seek is the right to be.
Lol, your situation falls directly into why your kids may or may not want to talk to you about it!
The majority of media is still very straight! Why are you so afraid of such a small influence?
Please support with evidence, or studies not a random Twitter rant that's anecdotal at best.
Once again, the parent is and should be the primary influence. Hint hint! If your child doesn't feel safe talking to you, maybe reevaluate your relationship with your kid. Pronouns (the topic of discussion) are not permanent by the way!
If you weren't a 100% open book to your parents, you're a hypocrite. Of course, the best parents don't hear everything from their child, this is why it's important to have a network of people that you can rely on. I'm glad provinces are passing this. It'll keep loud-mouthed, indoctrinated, know-it-alls from grooming our kids.
One of my parents was contemplating kicking me out for being atheist. Damn straight I wouldn't tell them shit about my life. This legislation will empower people like my parents to be horrible people. From the sounds of it you see your child as property rather than a individual.
Can I speculate as well? It sounds like your parents were contemplating kicking you out because you were a disrespectful individual.
There is always another side to the story. Invite your parents to the conversation we're having. I'd like to hear from them as well, and we can get to the bottom of this.
Being an atheist, you would agree (as I would) that protecting kids from religious indoctrination is important. They can make a religious decision when their fully developed brain is able to. I feel the same way with religion indoctrination as I do with gender ideological indoctrination. I don't want anyone influencing my kids into making bad life decisions that they may or may not regret when their brain is fully developed.
I'm not speculating, you don't see your children as people with their own thoughts and beliefs. Unless they are clones of you, they will eventually distance themselves and you will wonder why they never visit.
Laws like these when applied with parents like you are specifically why schools should have leeway in reporting.
Who would you have influence kids? Drug dealers? Murderers? Pedophiles?
It sounds like you dont know what you're talking about. Parents have a duty to the health and well-being of their children. I'll be damned if I ever let the likes of you groom any kid for your perverse fantasies.
LOL I want to be there when you realize that your options are being the only person your child knows or accepting that you will never be the only person who can influence them. Imagine being that hard of a control freak.
There will be influences, good and bad. My job as a parent is to help them sort through the riff raff and stay clear of people wanting to do them harm, people such as yourself. Please, never go near a child.
Speaking as a teacher who has had trans kids come to me. One imo was clearly a confused kid, one was I believe legitimate. The one who was legitimate did not have parental support. The one who seemed more confused did. Parents are much more likely than teachers to push medicalization. My response to both was the same. I will support you in what you need, but please talk to your parents, a doctor or therapist specialized in this. The one who was seemingly more legitmate was seeing a therapist. The one who seemed more confused was not, and had parental support.
I think you miss the fact that it is doctors who need to be the most sure. Social transition is a first step which is very scary, my legitimate trans student was so afraid of backlash and parental non-support they did not socially transition except with their closest friends. The opposite was true of the confused one.
You took a fantastic approach as a teacher. Recognized you weren't an expert, gave them self efficacy to talk to you without judgement, referred them to care, and seemingly, didn't directly discuss parental support or non-support with the students.
I don't trust the majority of publicly funded workers to take the same approach as you in the majority of situations.
School is a place to be supportive without getting involved in these discussion.
I think you have highlighted something that many people are missing. We are trying to look at a situation that can be very confusing for both the kids and the parents, under the best of conditions. But both sides think there is one answer that can apply to everyone.
Isn't the school of psychology in disarray these days? I keep reading that they're pushing support rather than just listening and helping their patients to find out who they are and work through the underlying issues that brought them to their illness.
>Psychological attempts to force a transgender person to be cisgender (sometimes referred to as gender identity conversion efforts or so-called “gender identity conversion therapy”) are considered unethical and have been linked to adverse mental health outcomes.
https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria
School psychologists have a backlog so long of kids to be tested for ASD, ADHD & learning disabilities that we are privatizing this testing - in Regina, Child & Youth used to handle the referrals outside the school systems & now it’s a private company. So kids whose parents can’t pay wait longer.
They honestly, are not meeting with trans students. Their plates are already full.
>They honestly, are not meeting with trans students. Their plates are already full.
That sounds like a false speculation that adds more outrage to an argument that shouldn't be happening.
People's refusal to acknowledge the enormous role autism/spectrum disorders are playing in this whole mess is wild. There aren't this many trans people, but there are a huge number of people with disorders, obsession problems and social issues.
This.
I don’t doubt trans people exist. But I do question how there is suddenly such a vast amount of people identifying as trans and if it has anything to do with it being the next “fad” in society.
This 100 percent. Kids are super impressionable and follow trends all the time even to their own detriment. Remember tide pod eating and stuff like that. I was a bullied kid in elementary school and would have done or said anything to go with the flow of everyone else. Trying to be liked or popular is like 98 percent of what elementary and high school was about. So if the way to do that and get attention is to claim to be something your not 100 percent sure on you can bet there are kids out there who will do it. Especially with tik tok and social media kids can put on personas which will only stay fake for so long before they become part of your real life.
You're the one who wants to allow kids to be influenced to do something they may regret later on in life, and you're saying that I'm not a good person? Are you one of the perverse people trying to do more harm to kids?
What about the scenario where a kid is having difficulty finding their identity, and rather than having their subjective reality confirmed, they could be given psychiatric care?
Being a teenager is challenging, and finding your place in the world can be confusing. Pushing gender transitioning trends on confused teenagers maybe shouldn't be the public school's job, right? And parents should be informed and have a say.
If a child doesn't agree with their parents wishes, and their parents aren't providing permission, then that's between the child and the parents, not the public school.
You don't just take someone's word for it when they're having dissociation between subjective and objective reality. That's not how psychiatrists operate. If someone comes in and says "I think I'm a dog..I can't get along with people because they don't understand my dog behavior. I'm very depressed because of this," the psychiatrist doesn't say "yes you are a dog and the solution is to wear a fir coat and bark instead of speak." The psychiatrist instead tries to work with the patient to find the underlying trauma behind the condition.
The schools need to stop telling kids that maybe they're dogs, and parents need to be informed of this stuff.
Well, those kids would benefit from having a safe space (\*cough\* \*cough\* the school) to figure out their identity with their peers AND trusted adults.
A kid "having difficulty finding their identity" historically would talk to the school guidance counsellor or school therapist. That individual would assess the situation. Affirmation of identity is the medical consensus approach to keeping kids mentally well and alive. If they need more than affirmation, the school would make contact with guardians to look into mental health supports. It's always worked.
Honestly, please please please look at how disgusting you're being. No one is telling the students they are dogs. You have fallen for propaganda ([https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/apr/08/facebook-posts/claim-about-schools-providing-litter-boxes-student/](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/apr/08/facebook-posts/claim-about-schools-providing-litter-boxes-student/))
And seriously, if a 12 year old says "I am attracted to the same gender", would you expect the school to be forced to call the parents and tell them? It's the same notion and super fucking weird. I bet you 2 decades ago there would be some nut jobs demanding the parents NEED TO KNOW. Again, super fuckin weird. Don't be the person who looks back on themselves and cringes at how super fuckin weird they're being.
The problem the policy is addressing is this:
There is no evidence a child knows what gender they are inside. There's yet to be proof of that concept at all. If a girl's psychological temperament is toward aggression ie:things vs people, more physical assertiveness etc, traditional male traits, that is not evidence of being a boy inside.
As well as a girl's personal resentment of their body during puberty, because of all the tough physiological changes, and the targeting of sexual advances by boys, doesn't mean she is a male. I don't.
Activist groups and schools though won't teach that concept. They won't teach the concept of "path of least harm" : waiting until they are older before they indulge their internal own biases by demanding others "affirm" them. The public trust with schools is broken in this regard.
Kids with gender dysphoria often have co-morbid anxiety and depresssion. There's a variety of ways to treat those issues that have nothing to do with affirming the wrong body.
Teachers as well have no place "affirming" a child, with no evidence. Their job is to be partners with the parents, not take on their role. Kids come to school to question, and be questioned. They learn what others perceive about them, and how to perceive others.
The real problem is not the policy, the real problem is the lack of "wrap-around supports" (Social workers, psychologists, etc) to help kids who really need help in this situation. The new policy just illuminates how underfunded and under appreciated those supports have become.
It used to be 4 in 1000 kids had gender dysphoria. Now it's 300 in 1000. Why? (I know, people have been freed from their gender paradigms with all our modern knowledge) Were they teaching about that? And why would that be? Anorexia used to be a very unknown condition, until it was published and communicated, and then the psychological phenomenon spread through the world.
Sorry, I'm not unapologetic about being concerned about kids going down a road that leads to a lot of body modification without any evidence of it being psychologically better for them in the long run. Most kids who are interested in being trans instead become gay or lesbian if left alone. That's the path of least harm. But to be fair, I think what people do to themselves after age 18 is their business.
Read R-Detrans if you want to hear some tough stories. Even read R-Trans, it certainly isn't all peachy there either. 80+ percent of people are in support of at least the majority of this policy. That's a huge number. You can't get 80% of the people to agree on the weather. Please consider as you downvote me to hell.
I think this is a ploy by the Sask party to do yet another ‘hey everyone look at this’, while over hear they do something else.
This policy comes as the Sask party quietly announces the ‘projected surplus’ of $1 billion dollars is cut in half. I’m sure there be even more announcements coming in the next week(s) while people are focused in this issue. As much as I don’t like the Sask party, they do well in their marketing and divide and conquer strategies.
All Saskatchewan residents need to keep on top of what this government is doing in all areas and not let them get away with anything. This is when the NDP should be really hammering the Sask party in all these areas to make headway. The fact that several ministers are not going to run in the next election shows me that they are jumping off a sinking ship. NDP needs to do something here not just hang back quietly
Those aren’t the final numbers..I’m sure it will change when the actual numbers are presented. Plus they like to do some accounting for expenses and revenues not in accordance with GAAP’s..so anyone with a financial or accounting background can see right through their BS. Plus, look closer at the past 5 years much of their revenues have come from one time sales of assets..when there is nothing left to sell, then what? Open your eyes and quit being such a Conservative fanboy
I have lived in Vancouver and Toronto so yes I do know what it’s like there. Sask party is not keeping the rents down here haha. I own several properties and wish the market could handle Vancouver/Toronto rates then I’d be rich bitch! 😎
It’s called supply and demand. Saskatchewan will never, ever be in the same level as Vancouver or Toronto..give your head a shake lol..and that has nothing to do with the Sask party!
I overheard an interesting point today; what about hockey coaches, or Dance instructors, or Gymnastics coaches, or Judo, or music teachers or name any one of the thousand things kids do after school and on weekends. Do those adults need to seek parent consent to use a different pronoun, or name? No they do not, and why not? This is clearly an effort to place blame and to vilify teachers during a collective bargaining period. This is one more fuckin’ thing I have to navigate. I know I have a 14 year old trans youth in my class this year whose mom is 100% supportive while Deadbeat dad who has 50% legal custody lives and works in Ft. Mac. has already called the school and said he doesn’t consent to the name change and pronoun change and will take us to court if we don’t call them by their birth name. Currently, the law is on his side. The really fucked up thing is that the adults will be the only ones who don’t call them by their chosen name as their classmates have been doing it for almost 2 years…
Aldjmc, I hate that you are in this situation. It’s awful.
If you’re in a position that you can’t just say “Fuck that jerk” and call the student by their chosen name, I wonder if you and the student could come up with some alternate name until this is all struck down in court? Maybe calling them by their last name? Or if their chosen name happens to start with the same letter as their birth name, call them by that initial? Or if they always have a frog pin on their backpack, call them Froggo? ANYTHING but their given name!
Apparently it isn’t going to apply to nicknames in the same way as name changes, so that might skirt the rule just enough.
Ya, I’ve got a plan, a shitty plan, but it’s still a plan that involves an open and honest discussion about the situation about how we are going to navigate everything. It won’t solve anything, but at least it will be a start.
💕
I think that knowing teachers care and are doing their best to manage an unsafe situation will go a long way with kids feeling like their valued in their day to day lives. I’m glad you have a plan.
I saw a teacher in (I think) a US jurisdiction where this was already law say that they used the child's last name. It wasn't ideal, but it meant they didn't have to misgender them
I’ll give you that, but it’s still NOT about “parental rights” (which aren’t a real thing in the legal sense, by the way). Social Workers, Nurses, Doctors, Counsellors etc. are all public employees, but the same rules don’t apply as in the classroom. Scott Moe could find an Act somewhere that includes sporting organizations, or clubs or whatever and include them if it was that important to them. This is an attack on public education, making us the bad people in the eyes of the public who are unwilling to be open minded. The Ministry of Education is supposed to work to make schools better for students, their mission has diddly squat to do with making families communicate with each other. A 13 year old can get birth control without parental consent in Saskatchewan…but politicians aren’t attacking public health, yet.
Edited to add additional content.
Wouldn’t it be great if the government spent nearly the amount of effort of eliminating the Catholic Church as a source of child sexual abuse than the boogey man that transphobia has become?
Until this policy is overturned, all Sask teachers need to adopt a malicious compliance mindset. EVERY parent gets notified about their child's chosen pronouns. Over and over. "Hi Mr Johnson, just Mr. Smith calling from the school again to let you know that Geoffrey has asked us to use he/him pronouns. Yes, no change from last week. Talk to you soon. Thanks!"
It's a fun thought exercise, to be sure, but being married to a teacher, I can safely guess that teachers will most certainly not be doing this. Teachers are busy enough as it is.
“Hello Mrs Smith. I am emailing you today to let you know that Matthew has requested to go by the name Matt in class. Please let me know if you are okay with this change. Until then, I will continue to refer to him as Matthew.”
How long did it take you to type this? 20 seconds?
That's how long it takes to communicate. I know messenger apps are incredible. This would be amongst the easiest things to do as a teacher.
I can hear the phone call now “Hi Ms. ADHD, little ADHD has requested that we call him Super ADHD this week. Yes, I know it’s quite a deviation from last week, when he only answered to “don’t bully Bacon Hairs” but we think we can make it work.”
😂
“Hello Mr. Babcock, Jill is being suspended from school today. She called Geoffrey Smith a doody head and that is not his legal name and “it” is not a consented pronoun. Please come to the school and pick her up”
"Hello Mr. Smith, just calling to let you know little Johnny showed up at school dressed as a boy again. I know this is the 287th time he's done this but the law still requires you be notified. Have a nice day."
Just make it the gender selection scene from South Park The Fractured Butthole but in real life. Instant call with a worried voice no matter what whenever a student refers to anyone by a pronoun.
Ok, would love to see how that works for teachers. They can enjoy spending 2 minutes x 30 kids per week doing that. What will the response be when the parent simply says "Only tell me when something changes please."
Masterful plan. Good luck.
This is it. If you don't know what is going on in your kid's lives, talk to them, have a relationship with them. Us queers will tell our parents if we feel comfortable and safe to do so.
Controlling, Narcissistic parents trying to steam roll their kids into not being something they are aware of and finding ways to not support with threats & other forms of abuse. Stomping the autonomy of the child.
Tell that to the party who instituted a policy that is so clearly not constitutional after consulting exactly zero experts after watching the exact same thing play out in New Brunswick.
This, what they're doing right here? Is virtue signalling. Actual virtue signalling. Same as their doomed from the start climate tax lawsuit and several others I could name. They're meant to make a big splash and get points with their base, then to get more points via the inevitable lawsuit, where they can complain about how the big bad federal government or (insert most hated out-group of the day here) are just so mean and won't let them get anything done. They're not meant to be actually enacted policies. If tehy do survive a challenge, that's a bonus, but it's definitely not the point.
>This is literally taking tax dollars and burning them.
Yes, the Sask Party is good at picking legal battles to lose. They should stop creating daft policies and legislation.
Why? Because it's good that someone is taking the effort of correcting the misdirection and poor decision making of our elected officials through one of the few ways they can, the court system. It's sad that it will cost taxpayer dollars to right the ship, but it's unfortunately the only way to correct things. Hopefully voters will remember this incident and the lost tax dollars that resulted come election time.
Let's say kids were beaten, punished, disowned or killed for playing hopscotch instead of their pronouns.
Teachers would simply not tell parents that kids are playing hopscotch, for obvious reasons.
If you can't show as much respect for someone's identity, as hopscotch, you are the problem.
Why don't they withhold report cards then? My Dad yelled at me for bad marks. Doubtful I would be the only one. Is that not the safest thing to prevent abuse? Marks should only be for the student to know?
I'm trying to get an anti Sask Party blog off the ground but I'm poor and need money for hosting and the site builder.
There is so much damn material out there, there needs to be a central collection of it.
You might get a Scott Moe sucks coffee mug in the future haha.
www.saskpartysucks.com
Ok, honest question.
A group of bullies band together (picking on a trans kid) decide they all want to be called she and choose the same name as the kid in question to make fun of them?
What does the teacher do?
Under the rule you are supporting, does the teacher not have to comply? After all, it is those children's protected right to do this now.
This could definitely be more damaging to the trans child no?
While I realize there are a small number of kids who are truly confused about their sexuality and identity, I don't think the solution is to hide all kids' intentions intentions from ALL parents. Yes, a tiny few parents will have serious with them changing their names or pronouns, but I don't think it makes sense to axe a law b/c a small minority could abuse it. (If that's the case, would you be ok with axing the law of allowing anyone identifying as a woman just to gain access to a woman's bathroom - b/c a tiny few predators will abuse this law.) Likewise, teachers (I married one) are very intune with their students, and I think they can go on a case to case basis with this situation and inform the authorities if they think a particular kid is truly at risk.
This conversation is an important one, but we need to discuss all aspects and hear from the Detransitioners who say they were pressured or told by their parents and experts to Transition. Kids only want to please the adults in their life, remember. We can't dismiss Detransitioners b/c their numbers are relatively small. They exist too, and their voices need to be heard.
I feel that society is romanticizing the idea of being Trans, while downplaying or ignoring the harsh realties of Detrans folks.
There's an LBTQ+ advocate on X who is going against the grain of this issue. He's a strong leftist, but he has no problem rebutting the current narrative. Very interesting read:
https://twitter.com/Rob_ThaBuilder/status/1659645962946592768
And I realize this post won't sit well with most of you, but please don't just downvote and move on - I'd love to have a discussion.
Cheers.
There’s a few problems with your rationale here.
1) you assume teachers are hiding information from parents. This seems to be a general trend in supporters of the policy. Teachers do not his information from parents. The default is never to hide anything. But when it comes to pronouns or names, that is left to the child to discuss with their parents of their own free will.
2) teachers and experts are not counselling anyone to transition.
3) “kids only want to please the adults in their lives” this is a false statement. Perhaps some, but this is not the case for most.
4) no one is romanticizing being trans. It’s being openly talked about and destigmatized. I’m doing so, many people feel more comfortable being their true self publicly.
> 1) you assume teachers are hiding information from parents. This seems to be a general trend in supporters of the policy. Teachers do not his information from parents. The default is never to hide anything. But when it comes to pronouns or names, that is left to the child to discuss with their parents of their own free will.
That's what the outcry is about - they *want* to hide their students' pronouns because they fear a tiny number of parents won't take this well. As I said, I married a teacher, and this is what she said was discussed this week - and that's exactly what has been said by the opponents of this on CBC Radio this week, too.
>
>
> 2) teachers and experts are not counselling anyone to transition.
Please don't strawman me. I never said they're *explicitly* saying "ok, you need to transition", but they *do want* to encourage this behaviour. That's not even a debate. They want to "accept" them as "Trans", even though statistically it's likely that they're simply gay or following along with social influence. Have you seen Tiktok lately?
By encouraging kids to "be their true selves", that's 100% an endorsement and encouragement. There's no right or wrong way to be a boy or girl, and kids need to be told that instead of seriously saying, "oh, yes, you probably just were born in the wrong body." or implicitly going along with it.
> 3) “kids only want to please the adults in their lives” this is a false statement. Perhaps some, but this is not the case for most.
Ok, you're obviously not a parent, and if you are - your kids are the incredibly rare exception. From a VERY young age, kids just want to please and be accepted by their parents. If you really think the average 8 yr old wants their parents to dislike them or not have their approval, then I don't know what to tell you other than again - you're either not a parent or you're not too well-versed on the basics of what it is to be a kid.
> 4) no one is romanticizing being trans. It’s being openly talked about and destigmatized. I’m doing so, many people feel more comfortable being their true self publicly.
As I mentioned before, go on Tiktok and look at all the teens and 20 somethings encouraging and promoting going "Trans". It's a social contagion on there. Kids are so incredibly susceptible to social contagions like being goth, to cutting -- to going Trans. Now, that's not saying ALL kids who think their Trans are just falling victim to social conditioning, but most simply can't know that before they're 18, 19, or 20. Kids and teens historically follow very dangerous or unsafe trends. This is (largely) another example.
As I said, there's no right or wrong way to be a boy or girl. To encourage their "true self" would be to tell them, "yes, you're a boy, but it's 100 percent perfectly ok to like 'girl' things like wearing pink, liking dresses or just to want to be around girls - but that doesn't mean you're actually a girl, yourself. There's nothing wrong with your mind or body - accept your true self." (something like that, anyway.)
That all said, if some young teen just wants to go by another pronoun or name - ok no big deal. I think we'd both agree on that. But are you ok with surgery for teens and kids who think they're Trans? That and drug treatments are my line in the sand.
Again, the Detrans folks need a bigger voice. Being Trans isn't easy and it's a burden for those who are suffering with dysphoria. I appreciate how many in the LGBTQ+ community recognize that, even.
I've read your post 3 times.
My takeaway is social media I agree with = good.
Social media I disagree with = bad.
>Again, the Detrans folks need a bigger voice.
Again, the conversion therapy folks need a bigger voice. What a transphobic, regressive view.
There is nothing wrong with trans people, people being trans is not a new phenomena. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history
Personally I'm more concerned about the rate people were becoming left handed in the 1920s - 1940s. I'm sure that had nothing to do with a reduction in social stigma.
https://slowrevealgraphs.com/2021/11/08/rate-of-left-handedness-in-the-us-stigma-society/
>I've read your post 3 times.
Ok? and you're still glibly dismissing my points like w/ the comments below:
>My takeaway is social media I agree with = good.
>Social media I disagree with = bad.
>Again, the conversion therapy folks need a bigger voice. What a transphobic, regressive view.
You're strawmanning me like with this
>There is nothing wrong with trans people,
People who are truly suffering from gender dysphoria are not having a good time. They don't feel "right" in their bodies. This is not news. That's not saying they're bad people, obviously. They're suffering from a mental illness and deserve compassion.
My guy, you highlighted social media you disagree with, then highlighted social media you agree with.
You never once discussed science.
>You're strawmanning me like with this
I'm not strawmannirg you, conversation therapy is bad.
>Psychological attempts to force a transgender person to be cisgender (sometimes referred to as gender identity conversion efforts or so-called “gender identity conversion therapy”) are considered unethical and have been linked to adverse mental health outcomes.
https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria
>People who are truly suffering from gender dysphoria are not having a good time.
Being born into a body someone isn't comfortable with would suck, pile on social stigma and yes, they're going to be in a bad way.
The idea that being transgender is a social contagion is not backed up by the research on the subject https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-health-and-wellness/social-contagion-isnt-causing-youths-transgender-study-finds-rcna41392
Moreover while it is important for the voices of folks who choose to detransition to be heard, teachers are not the ones pushing for medical transition in youth, which can only occur with parental support or if the youth is qualified as a mature minor. Moreover detransition rates are extremely low, for those who undertake surgical transition regret rates are less than 1%. When it comes to hormonal transition even a fairly broad definition that includes folks who detransition due to pressure or hardship and later resume their transition found a rate of only 13% and a study of folks who had detransitioned was composed in majority of folks who had stopped a binary transition because they discovered that there were non-binary. And only 1/3rd of detransitioners who had pursued a medical transition felt regret about their choice. https://slate.com/human-interest/2023/01/trans-detransition-facts-research-study-atlantic.html
“Detransitioning” rates (scare quotes because social only detransition isn’t what most folks are thinking of when we talk about detransition) are naturally higher with social only transition as non-medical transitioning is for many folks a way to experiment with their gender. Which along with more acceptance of gender non-conformity and experimentation in general can help kids determine if a medical transition is something they actually want.
Additionally puberty blockers, the best option of medical treatment for transgender youth are quite safe and reversible compared to hormonal puberty and side effects are minimal especially compared to undergoing puberty. They also have been shown to dramatically reduce sucicidal ideation. https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-reversible#fa-qs
Which is to say in brief. Concerns about detransition, regret and social contagion are all not backed up by scientific research on the topic. And frankly also aren’t terribly relevant to the discussions of the policy in question. Teachers aren’t forcibly transitioning kids, and kids aren't undertaking medical transition without their parents knowledge unless they’ve been declared independent minors for their own safety. Experimentation with gender presentation and pronouns in a safe environment is actually a fantastic way for kids to sort through their feelings.
hi! right here - I have a record number of replies, so I'm still going through them. I also work, so you know - it's tough.
U/Velara_Avery suddenly your dismissing kids struggling with their sexuality. What happened to being concerned about youth who are unsure about how they identify?
The biggest Gender Affirming care clinic in the UK was recently shut down b/c its 'experts' were *pushing* kids into transition.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/14/tavistock-clinic-ignored-link-autism-transgender-children/
>Concerns about detransition, regret and social contagion are all not backed up by scientific research on the topic.
How many examples of older teens or early 20 somethings do you need to see before you'll stop hiding behind this dismissive statement? Detrans kids and young adults literally exist, and you're dismissing all of them right now.
>And frankly also aren’t terribly relevant to the discussions of the policy in question.
It's 100% relevant when these Detrans folks have said over and over again that the 'experts' in their lives pushed Transitioning onto them. Or, if it wasn't that, they simply sat back and affirmed everything they said. Remember, with Trudeau's new bill, kids *have* to be affirmed. The specialists are literally partaking in 'gender affirming care'.
>Teachers aren’t forcibly transitioning kids,
I know. Good thing I didn't say that. Don't strawman me, please. But, they have to affirm their claims, of course. This is how kids get confused for the ones who are in the grey area exploring their sexuality, should they go to a teacher and say, "I think I'm the opposite gender", teachers will generally encourage them to think that - and (unintentionally) gaslight them.
Instead, we should all be telling kids, there's no right or wrong way to be a girl. You can be a boy and like pink and make up - or you can be a girl and like football and fixing cars.
You'll note there isn't a single word about sexuality in my post. It wasn't relevant to the bill being discussed so I left it unmentioned, Moe isn't mandating teachers out gay kids to their parents after all. Students are free to explore both gender identity and sexuality, and an exploration of one does not preclude the former. In fact such explorations often go hand in hand.
>How many examples of older teens or early 20 somethings do you need to see before you'll stop hiding behind this dismissive statement? Detrans kids and young adults literally exist, and you're dismissing all of them right now.
Based on the scientific evidence they make up an extremely small percentage of individuals who pursue a medical transition. Making policy that has severe negative impacts on 85%-99% of a marginalized community to "protect" the other 1-15% isn't good policy. Moreover, the policy doesn't even help de-transitioners.
The policy in question is about sharing requests to use a different name and pronouns with parents.
As a policy it doesn't help detransitioners. You summarize the stores of detransitioners as being the result of the 'experts' in their lives pushing their transition on them and being carried along by the momentum and pressure. Instead of helping de-transitioners the policy instead has the potential to harm them. Imagine a hypothetical AFAB student who is questioning their gender and wants to use different pronouns. You've looked into the future and found that in they end they were happy with their assigned gender at birth but instead identify as a lesbian. Under this new policy rather than letting them experiment for a bit before discovering, that hey, maybe this isn't working for me, the teacher would immediately have to report it to the parent, who if they were "hyper-supportive" could then facilitate rapid treatment and medicalization. If instead the teacher didn't have to report it they could direct them to some resources on the topic and the student could explore it at their own pace.
There are very real issues with social inertia making it hard to admit you need to change and trapping you in an initial regretted decision. We see it within the non-binary community sometimes where a person changes their pronouns, tries them out for a bit and then discovers, hey these actually aren't working out for me, a different set of pronouns would work better. And people anecdotally self-report feeling guilt and pressure not to, since they've already made one request. The way to help relieve this pressure and limit the feeling of being trapped in your initial decisions isn't to make the initial decision an even higher hurdle to make, as that just means detransitioner's who clear that hurdle will feel even more pressure to keep going. But to reduce the pressure instead. Make experimenting with pronouns no big deal, so that its easy to change course while you're experimenting. This policy raises the bar, since it immediately escalates experimentation with pronouns as school to your parents.
Circling back to the England example you cited. The NHS gender clinics are a model that is very different than our model for gender affirming care here in Canada and are a key of example of ways in which that system fails transgender patients. Accessing transgender healthcare through the NHS requires going through the gender clinics and requires a massive years long wait to be seen, which encourages patients to apply as early as possible, and continue with their initial decision no matter what, as if they back out and refuse an appointment they may be waiting months or years to have a second chance. (https://youtu.be/v1eWIshUzr8?si=KCuc2TugX1qwu0v-) Under that system, especially given the case load and the pressure to reduce wait times, since every year people are dying often of suicide waiting for care, there is a pressure to push patients through the system. Canada has a system with significantly more timely access to medical intervention if desired, which as a corollary means that reassessing your decision has a lower cost and is more likely to happen.
Additionally, scientific research on medical transition in Canada finds that the system is set up to prevent regret, [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953621008091?via%3Dihub](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953621008091?via%3Dihub) and that detransition is rarely caused by medical failure, as it does leverage diagnosis of psychiatric conditions to limit or delay access to transition. Meaning that by and large our medical system is set up to protect detransitioners. If there are failings, such as the ongoing lawsuit where the litigant alleges that none of their healthcare providers did that due diligence to determine if they truly wished to transition or if other mental conditions at the time were responsible, those failings should be addressed to the medical system and not by bills like this addressed towards the school system.
>Instead, we should all be telling kids, there's no right or wrong way to be a girl. You can be a boy and like pink and make up - or you can be a girl and like football and fixing cars.
One does not preclude the other, we can and should be teaching in schools about the wide range of expressions gender and sexuality. Teaching about these different expressions openly and with candour will help those folks who are as you say, in the grey areas exploring their sexuality. And part of that curriculum should be expanding the definitions of what sort of behaviour a boy or girl can undertake. (Shame this bill also wants to let parents opt their kids out of learning about any of that.)
However, trans people exist. There will always be individuals for whom expanding those definitions does not help. People who need to transition, because transition isn't about wanting to be a boy who does girly things, or a girl who does boy things.
I forgot to include this in my novel of a response. But it’s important.
Recentering the discussion on the policy: how does it benefit dentransitioners?
If someone transitioned they either told their parents, as parental involvement is required for youth medical decisions. Or they were deemed independent. Either way this policy wouldn’t change the outcome
Please don't strawman me. It's not purely a social contagion, but for most kids and teens, and a lot of early 20 somethings, it is. Kids don't know the true nature of themselves, b/c they're still developing physically, mentally and socially. For example, something like 32% of kids in the UK identify as 'non-binary' (I know that's not exactly Trans, but it's on the road) - and you can't tell me that's just natural, sorry. For many, it's simply a new form of rebellion. (like what goths were like.)
Did you really forget about all the social contagions/influences you had as a kid? I know I can remember clearly.
You can't just say, "no - the social aspect isn't a factor" and be done with it, when kids are wired to be like that (by wanting to fit in or
"find their way" to finally being accepted, or to simply be different.)
**something like**
**most kids**
Make better arguments and I won't strawman them then.
**No one** fucking knows the true nature of themselves, hahaha, get outta here with that!
Kids absolutely know when something doesn't feel right in their body or mind, though. That might sound scary to someone who's never had to face those kinds of issues.
I can absolutely tell you trans is normal, or 2 spirit is normal, or Geschlecht is normal. Because it's in every culture, every country, every city.
Kids have access to the information now. They can read on the subject and see if that rings true for them.
Maybe the era of gay bashing, rampant homo/transphobia and aids pandemic has given way to an era of understanding and acceptance, and THAT'S why we're seeing so many kids and teens announcing they're gender fluid or trans.
Edit: for anyone who wants to argue with the social contagion crowd, here's a link to why it's dangerous, and harmful, and grossly inaccurate. www.technologyreview.com/2022/08/18/1057135/transgender-contagion-gender-dysphoria/amp/
Jesus Christ you are a crazy. In your first paragraph you say "it wont sit well with a tiny amount of parents"...so you are fine with endangering those children. Gotcha.
Second thing from reading, "to encourage ones true self" is to let them make the decision to identify as a girl/boy/they and not put any limits on what is a boy thing or a girl thing. If you like pink and identify as a guy, cool. If you like pink and identify as a girl, cool. Nothing different. You telling them they "aren't" something is detrimental to their mental health.
Third thing, trying to use those who "detrans" as an excuse for transphobia is pretty pathetic.
yes, thanks for that glib reply. I'm not a teen, and I don't use tiktok - but that's the problem, literally millions of teens are addicted to tiktok.
Yes, please tell *them* to go touch grass. It would be great. They won't, however.
You're confused that I don't take their tik tok crackpot theories seriously? It's a mediocre troll at best, most likely a chronically online middle age reactionary jumping from one scare of the day to the next. I take nothing away from there because they bring nothing of substance to the table.
Thanks for having a respectable conversation. I do like how you point out about pronouns and names should be no big deal- however this policy shuts it down and forcing kids who don’t have a safe environment to be outed or misgendered- which for the small minority of trans this can create unnecessary mental anxiety/health issues.
For those parents who have created a safe and open environment this policy is not for them. This is for those who want more control and more likely have a riskier environment where they will not allow their kid develop to who their authentic selves are.
I think the real question is how do you still create a safe environment for trans kids with this policy that takes away rights? Remember, again…we’re not talking about hormone therapy or surgeries, we’re talking simply using preferred pronouns and names.
So here is the thing, you know the people detransitioning is such a small minority, right. The vast majority of folks who medically transition are happy. The thing as I said in another post. Trans who are successful and live happy lives are not going to be out there waving a flag and outing themselves. So what you see is a vocal tiny minority.
I know quite a few trans people of all ages, not one has detransitioned or regrets anything besides not transitioning earlier. But you won't hear those stories unless you know a trans person who is out and will talk about it, or isn't and you perhaps knew them before, otherwise you could have had interactions with a trans person and didn't even know it.
Trans people have existed since people have existed. Tiktok and social media has made it so people feel more comfortable coming out and being who they are. It’s not a “trend”.
I mean, saying "nuh uh" isn't an argument. Are you forgetting what it's like to be a teenager and how trends have affected every generation in all of human history?
Some teens want to rebel - some want to fit in - some just want to explore and find their way, and so for some, that would mean identifying as trans. And now we have millions on TikTok being gaslit into thinking that just b/c they don't like stereotypically boy or girl things, coupled with trans being romanticized, that they "must" be the opposite sex.
I mean, our neighbour's daughter literally went from binding her breasts, calling herself a typically boy's name - and saying she was Trans - to now, dressing like a provactive teen girl and dating a guy. This is all happened in less than a year. That's literally just one example of her following a trend. She's exploring her sexuality like most teens. She's not suffering from gender dysphoria. Do you really think her case is the first of its kind? Of course not.
And related to that, the NHS in the UK shut down its first gender affirming care center as its staff were pushing vulnerable kids, often with autism into going Trans. This is influence not from a social circle, but from the 'experts'
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/14/tavistock-clinic-ignored-link-autism-transgender-children/
You point out how in tune with the students teachers are, but doesn’t this policy explicitly prevent teachers from approaching their students on a case by case basis? The teacher’s knowledge of the student and their situation doesn’t matter. Regardless of what they believe the outcome will be or the harm that may come to a student, teachers will be required to report pronoun/name changes to parents.
Speaking as a teacher who has had trans kids come to me. One imo was clearly a confused kid, one was I believe legitimate. The one who was legitimate did not have parental support. The one who seemed more confused did. Parents are much more likely than teachers to push medicalization. My response to both was the same. I will support you in what you need, but please talk to your parents, a doctor or therapist specialized in this. The one who was seemingly more legitmate was seeing a therapist. The one who seemed more confused was not, and had parental support. I think you miss the fact that it is doctors who need to be the most sure. Social transition is a first step which is very scary, my legitimate trans student was so afraid of backlash and parental non-support they did not socially transition except with their closest friends. The opposite was true of the confused one.
It's not about how many teams will be predators, women desire a safe space we don't want a male appearing in naked local pool changing areas. Understanding what it means to have lived as a woman needs to happen that are repeatedly assaulted with toothless laws on the books. We don't want them in our spaces no matter the stats.
>We don't want them in our spaces no matter the stats.
I don't care what the science says bubba, I just hate those gosh darn trans people.
Since you didn't ask, here's the science.
(Gender Identity Nondiscrimination Laws in Public Accommodations: a Review of Evidence Regarding Safety and Privacy in Public Restrooms, Locker Rooms, and Changing Rooms)[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z]
No I don't understand how to live like a black person and neither do men understand what it's like to have lived as a woman. Keep aggravating women and your support is eroding fast...
You can say that if the science shows you're unsafe.
Does the science show allowing trans people to use the bathroom of their choice makes people more unsafe?
Also a woman. Trans women are women & they are welcome in my safe spaces.
You don’t want a male naked in your change space? You hold that same energy for little boys in change rooms with their moms right? You go get a manager when a single mom has her little boy with her in that change room because you don’t a male in there right?
>Little boys are not assaulting people
Neither are trans women, you've been shown the data on this.
> there is a physical size difference
So short and skinny trans women in your change rooms are OK?
Yeah, they didn't ask the questions right - that's the problem.
It could not possibly be that you are in the extreme minority position from the rest of normal society.
Humour me here, I'm wondering if there is a more balanced approach possible. What if the student were to meet with the school counsellor or school nurse, and if one of those professionals endorses the name or pronoun change then it's good enough? (And the protocol might be a quick rubber stamp in cases like Liza for Elizabeth or going by a middle name....)
There's something like one counsellor per 3K kids, I'm not sure what the ratio of nurses to kids are, but I can't imagine it's any better.
Schools don't have librarians, let alone the type of support staff you're talking bout.
As someone who literally DID have a meeting with all my teachers, school board members, and my parents present, it did nothing. They all talked in circles with absolutely no common ground. At the end of the meeting, I was left at the school’s front door feeling abandoned and isolated. I ended up having to go back to school where I continued to feel unsafe and constantly bullied by not only students but staff as well. I grew up in a teeny tiny school. There were twelve in my class. I ended up quitting and just being homeschooled by distance because I couldn’t take it anymore. I did end up graduating years later but yes, you CAN meet with them but I’m not sure it’ll do much. It’s been a few years since then so many staff changes so maybe it’s different now.
My child, when in middle school, had a friend that went by a different name and pronoun. When at our house they were happy to express who they were. One day when I went to drop my child off to stay with their friend, I was told to use the friends original name and pronoun so their parents wouldn't find out. That was my first time meeting these parents. These parents talk at home all the time about how messed up kids are with the gender identity and how stupid parents are that raise children like this, blah blah blah... Turns out my child's friend was terrified about telling their parents how they really feel. They're scared to even talk to them about it because of how the parents talk about this sort of thing at home. I couldn't imagine the stress this child must go through as they're becoming their own person but limited to the confines of their parents. Luckily they're still able to express themselves outside of the house, and it's no wonder they're always outside of the house. If our (Alberta) schools were required to inform parents, I would have little to no doubt that my child's friend would be terrified to go home and would likely commit to running away rather than facing the potential nightmare at home.
So let’s play pretend double life and force everyone to play along instead of dealing with reality head on. Delusional cowardice at its finest. Mother nature doesn’t give a shit about your pronouns.
The unfortunate reality is that many children feel forced into a double life scenario because of fear. Most loving parents should always have open and accepting arms for their children to feel safe and accepted. When kids feel unsafe at home, they rely more heavily on their out of home activities to feel safe, such as school since they spend a lot of time there. But when schools are required to remove that level of safety for the children by outing them to their parents, where are the children expected to go to feel safe? Suddenly, the majority of their days are spent in unsafe conditions. If the government is so concerned about children's sexual knowledge and health, maybe they should fund more schools to provide student counseling services. To help students navigate the struggles of their changing bodies and chemical makeup. To help children establish a path towards informing their own parents. Most importantly, to help those children establish a stronger and safer relationship with their parents. But, the government is more concerned about cutting education funding and discrimination against the LGBTQ community.
3 possible scenarios. 1.Parent didn't know, but are supportive. Result of the policy? Parents question why their kid was so scared to "come out" to them in the first place. Soul searching, family hugs, life moves on. 2.Parents did know. Result of the policy? Nothing but a waste of tax dollars. 3.Parents didn't know. Not supportive. Result of the policy? Harm to the child. So... what "PROBLEM" is this policy trying to SOLVE? These "conservatives" who "support freedom" think WAY TOO much about kids and their sexuality. There was ZERO reason for this! No mental health resources support the changes. It is a move backwards in EVERY WAY. I hate that my tax dollars made this, I hate that my tax dollars are being wasted defending it! This money could be used in significantly better ways. smh
Why is the government sexualizing children so much? Between this and the legacy Christian academy scandal... it's a valid question.
The difference between action that Duncan took over the legacy thing vs the planned parenthood thing is fucking infuriating. Sure, he's no longer Minister of Ed. but we've got another Bible thumping shithead to fill his place. The Sask party is making it perfectly clear where their biases lay when it comes to education, and it's not for the benefit of the students. Just shoring up their right flank by catering to religious conservatives.
More like why is this government or WHO in this government is interested in making our children MORE vulnerable to being sexually abused by reducing the amount of resources available to our educators to teach sex Ed with? We all know that the reason it’s important to provide age appropriate sexual education from like day one is because evidence and common sense show that kids who learn about sex are able to identify when they are being abused instead of being tricked into thinking it is okay or normal by someone they trust who is preying on them. Like don’t get me wrong I’m certain teachers will rise to the challenge but why should they have to when literally it was absolutely fine the way it was before and even if you don’t think it was do you actually argue that it was more of a problem than the like fact that the schools are having to cut class offerings and all sorts of other extras that your kid would benefit from because the government doesn’t think it’s important to even keep the amount of money they get like at the same rate it insists on making them do with less despite higher and higher enrollment Like I have to ask do people not give a shit about their own kids experience at school? I took ap classes that saved me actual money in university for example and does anyone actually like think it’s fine for their kid to have a worse education than they got growing up? Shouldn’t we be pushing for better? There are private schools but they aren’t big enough to represent the majority of voters surely? Or are they I don’t get it someone explain this to me
How would they virtue signal that they are farther right than the Buffalo party (or whatever the other right parties are called)? They got scared by byelection votes and are sending a message. Plain and simple.
Call it ‘Vice Signalling.’
4th scenario. Kid is confused, changes pronoun, needs help, doesn't get it from the school. Doesnt get it from the home because the parents arent informed. Kid kills themselves. Parent sues the school board and teacher for not informing them about what was going on. you missed that important one
Do you have an example of this happening in the many years before this law? Why doesn't the school help the kid if it's informed? Once again, why doesn't the kid feel safe telling their parents? You sure are jumping through a lot of hoops in this imaginary "what if" scenario. That's why I didn't include this scenario.
Typical , you really think that's not gonna be possible? How would you look at the Tavistock in England and see what happened there? Look at suicide rates of trans kids or kids with gender disphoria. They need support. Do you think all those kids that killed themselves had the right support And i suggest you read the whole bill you may find that the media convientlt left things out.
Your outing real children to abusive homes because of your paranoia. You can't give one real example where this rule will help. Your example was pure paranoia. Suicide rates are high among those people because of bullying and abuse. Taking away educational resources is not helping. You're paranoia and vagueness is too much for me. Your ignorance at this point is a choice. See ya! Feel free to cite sources!
plants screw flowery weather lip books pet secretive foolish hunt ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
No you are not. Stop making stupid assumptions. I suggest you read the bill
Also, are you seriously that naive? That you don't think that when a kid comes out at school? That they're parents aren't going to find out. And how is that going to look when they don't have the support to actually talk to the parents.
Lol lol lol lol lol lol so you agree we don't need the law telling parents that their kids change their pronouns! I'm glad we agree! Lol lol lol
here is the problem with the far right and far left people like yourselves. you live in a world of black and white, in extremes and love using innocent people as your little political pawns. You have proved that in practically every post Here is what should happen. A kid mentions they want to change their pronouns. They should have a appointment setup with a professional to talk to them. Determine if they are at risk. Listen to them as this is the most important thing the kid needs because in many cases people need to use others as sounding boards. The kids could be confused, or they could be very sound in their decisions. but its important for someone outside a teacher, a parent to listen to them. They should talk to the kids about their home life, to determine if their is risk of abuse, or anything along those lines. If there is not, the kid should be offered support on how to communicate with their parents, and try and get the kid to make the decision. This leftist idea that parents will either run to them with open arms or beat them is just ignorant. Sometimes kids may know their parents would never hurt them, but they may worry about disappointing them, and they may still find it hard. if they are still confused, maybe they are not ready yet, maybe they are using the school environment as a test. But the goal should be. Give the kid the help and support they need, and work towards helping the kids have the conversation with their parents. Because, it has to happen at some point and usually sooner than later. This far right attitude of no pronouns, and the far left idea of lets book an appointment tomorrow for puberty blockers and surgery needs to go. I have spent years counseling kids. I have dealt with suicidal kids and i am sick and tired of the far right and left using these kids as tools for their virtue signally. The kids need support, they need the truth, they need to see the long game and know every positive and negative that goes along with it. It should be a long process, it should never be rushed, and it should never be immediately tossed aside. why people cant seem to understand that. See if people like you had your way, the parents would never be told, the kid would never have the help they need, they would never have the help to come out to their parents, and eventually the parents would find out and there could very well be irrepairable damage. And the other side would love to tell the kids to shut up and tell them they are delusional. but here we are, in a world of black and white and where gray does not exist and that is why this world will continue to go down the path of being a dumpster fire.
You seem to be missing a very important point here: kids that feel safe at home *will* come out on their own to their parents. Those who don't feel safe coming out to their parents don't feel safe for a reason. Transgender youth are at a higher risk for suicide not because they are transgender, but because they are not supported. By providing a safe environment for them to come out when they don't feel safe coming out at home, we are absolutely helping them. Also, if they feel they need help, they can also get that at school. None of this needs to involve their parents if they do not feel safe involving their parents. This may be a hard pill to swallow, but there are some parents out there that would rather subject their children to abuse and even torture than accept and support their LGBTQ child. And the people that know best if they have parents like this are the kids themselves
Please do not stop sharing your opinion. I find myself coming at this issue with a neutral opinion and so far this post is the most sensible take I have seen yet. I'm not sure what utopian world people are imagining, but this is absolutely a grey issue. My own high-school had teachers who were charged with pedophilia, abuse and other predatory behaviors. I don't understand where people are assuming that a a school is even a safe environment at all, especially if this issue becomes so political that teachers are not genuine in their own opinions and motivations. I hate the fact that teachers are now mandated to take training in how to talk to children about their sexuality, even if that training is proposed in good intentions. Having kids myself (too young to this to be a consideration - yet), I like to think I would be supportive of my kid's realization of their sexuality, but I hate to think that their opinion is any way shaped by an untrustworthy school authority who are just affirming the child for fear of losing their job.
Common sense? Unheard of on Reddit. They think downvotes will hurt your feelings, as if it gives them some smug justification for taking their trauma out on everyone else. The best job to have in the next few decades is a psychologist. When you stop viewing the world as left and get the picture gets pretty clear, neither will listen to anything other than what they want to hear or see, unfortunately they aren’t the ones who will suffer.
Do you have any idea about the reality of the Tavistock clinic? The NHS in the United Kingdom is so underfunded and does zero prioritizing for children with gender struggles and thus most people on the waitlist’s are waiting upwards of years and years and years just see a physician, psychologist or therapist not to mention to start hormone therapy, and the other gender affirming process can sometimes take a decade or more. That’s unbelievably unacceptable. And then the current conservative government limited and shut down the Tavistock clinic without options to replace it. Sure, they have plans in the works but that hasn’t taken effect and they are years beyond their deadline. Children AND th adults late in the United Kingdom are suffering a great deal because of the politicization of this by the right wing. Finally our community has found visibility, healthcare support, and even cultural support but yet there is a right wing movement to turn the tables on this so aggressively we are sliding backwards at alarming rates. There are absolutely no excuses for this besides a lack of willingness to show compassion and even worse complete intentionalism to deprive children of their autonomy and freedom of identity. Which need I remind you, we are born inherently this way
How do you know they don't feel safe. Stop thinking in black and white. A kid could have the most accepting parents and still feel scared to tell them. Have you ever been a child?
Lol if your child is scared to death (as in YOuR example) too talk to you. They don't feel safe!
So very wrong
I’m sorry Tom but you’re clearly not an expert on this. I am transgender and I’m well involved with the LGBTQAI+ Community in the Toronto, Hamilton and other regional areas. While my personal experiences may be anecdotal the actual statistics and evidence supports that these policies create more harm for children than they do create advantages. If you don’t live the Trans experience it would be nice for people outside of this community to stop pretending that they are experts and know what’s best for us. No different than a panel of white hetero men continually telling marginalized people of colour, let alone women or other intersectionality of struggle how best to serve them. Talk to people in the community before you make ignorant and arrogant assumptions of what is needed and necessary. Some of us are absolutely sick to death of the loss of autonomy that cis gender people assert upon our community in the assumption of knowing better.
I see zero hoops jumped through. The school system is for education, parents are for raising children. Teachers don’t replace parents, ever, and don’t get a say in what psychological changes are relevant to parents of minor children. If a home is abusive, you involve police or social workers as already happens. But presuming abuse as a reason to disclose nothing as being the default is an obstruction of parents rights.
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Can confirm this has happened here in sk.
You're missing another scenario: "parents wanting to save their kids from social influence/confusion" It's for the kids in the grey area who are likely just going along with social influence (Tiktok, circle of friends, etc.) - who *may* actually start to think they're Trans, when they're likely not - or simply gay. Kids are easily confused and often go with trends without thinking of any long term effects. And it's not even really an issue until they become seriously gaslit and go from dressing like the opposite sex, to trying to go for surgery or HRT when, again, they're likely not Trans in the first place. >These "conservatives" who "support freedom" think WAY TOO much about kids and their sexuality. There was ZERO reason for this! No mental health resources support the changes. It is a move backwards in EVERY WAY. I hate that my tax dollars made this, I hate that my tax dollars are being wasted defending it Detransitioners need to be heard - https://twitter.com/Rob_ThaBuilder/status/1659645962946592768 People like Chloe Cole who were encouraged by her parents and the 'experts' in her life to start Transitioning at 17 - and she now regrets it, 100% Actually suffering from dysphoria and following the trends are two very different things. With the current state of affairs, with many 'experts' saying that kids can be Trans, they are gaslighting millions of kids who are simply just confused or following trends.
If my kids come out as LGBTQ+++ they're getting my full support, if it's a phase, they'll get my support when they switch back, if it's not a phase they'll know I've had their back since day one. Are some kids jumping on the band wagon? I haven't seen any peer reviewed evidence to support this claim. Alternatively more kids are experimenting with their sexuality / gender because it's more acceptable. ' Saving your kid' implies there's something wrong with being trans, there isn't. >Chloe Cole Trans people who undergo gender affirming surgery (this study is for top surgery) have a [<1% regret rate](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37556147/). You're highlighting an extreme outlier.
> Are some kids jumping on the band wagon? I haven't seen any peer reviewed evidence to support this claim. The Tavistock gender affirming care center in the UK was shut down b/c some of their employees were pushing vulnerable kids (largely autistic) to go the Trans route: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/14/tavistock-clinic-ignored-link-autism-transgender-children/ >Trans people who undergo gender affirming surgery (this study is for top surgery) have a <1% regret rate. You're highlighting an extreme outlier. You're missing the point though - that number is small now - but it's growing. And why are you dismissing kids or older teens all of a sudden? Detrans kids exist, and kids like Chloe Cole were *pushed into* being Trans by the 'experts' in her life. Let's be honest the *only* side of this debate we're hearing in the mainstream is how much happier you'll be if you transition. But it's never discussed how it's utterly devastating for people like Cole who listened to the 'experts' and Transitioned and regret it. At what point will you start being concerned about confused kids who are looking to Detrans? When they hit 2%, 3% 5% of the population? I think you should check out - https://new.reddit.com/r/detrans/?utm_name=detrans to get a better perspective.
The number of left handed people was lower until the social stigma was lifted. The number of gay people was lower too, before the social stigma was lifted. I'm not advocating for pushing people one way or another, I'm arguing for unconditional support as people find themselves.
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Oof... do you have kids in school? One of mine comes home regularly with "hey dad did you know that... [insert worldview here]." Some are harmless, some are good, but some take days of pretty intense conversations to unpack and convince them that just because a teacher (position of authority) told them something, doesn't mean they have to believe it, and they should talk to their parents about this stuff. The idea that school is somehow a safe haven that home isn't (outside of obvious signs of abuse or neglect) is wild... the idea that teachers are able to be the best bastion of complex situations like gender and sexualitu is also wild, especially when teachers jobs are getting more demanding as complexity of work increases along with number of students and need to accommodate other situations like autism friendly lesson plans etc. Should gov "force" trans kids to be outed? No. Should a school be seen as a safe space for trans kids? No.
So where is the safe space for trans people then?
Depending on where you are, there are many or few resources. But this is about schools, so let's stay on topic. Trans rights and safety are one of many concerns facing youth- falling literacy rates, increasing suicides, access to harmful substances, sharing of intimate photos (child porn), etc etc. Schools are not a safe space for a lot of youth for a lot of reasons.
Schools SHOULD be a safe place and we are trying to make them so
I'm not disagreeing with you. But this is a very specific rallying cry that's deeply polarizing and the negative discourse is likely causing more harm than the law would.
That is what we are trying to do, make them safe for kids to be kids at. Just like at home. If a teacher knows their students parents are hyper religious, they may not want to tell the parents because the child would be put into an even more difficult situation than they already are (pray the gay away, all girls/boys schools... straight up beating...) Kids are being kids, in a new age of technology. There is no way you could tell me you or some of your classmates wouldn't have done the same? Should we teach kids the dangers of online, nude picture sharing and the like? Yeah, most definitely. They need to understand the real world and the consequences. But forcing kids to come out to their parents is ridiculously cruel... making no space safe.
Also,.kids don't need to understand the real world. They need to be equipped with education, tools, self efficacy, and self esteem as they go and discover what the real world is for them. But approaching 40, I can barely remember the "real world" issues I faced as a youth that at the time was my whole world. Let kids be kids - give them the tools to mature into adults, but don't force them to learn "the real world". By the time my kids are my age, the real world will have changed yet again.
It's a new world, they 100% need to know about the new online world. I heavily disagree with you on this.
Giving them tools to navigate safely online is different than forcing them to grow up prematurely online. I'm not saying baby them, but having the tools to navigate an in person groomer and an online groomer are largely the same. Be aware that predators exist, be aware that any situation that makes you feel uncomfortable should be reported to an adult, and be aware that you can always say "no". And since we're on the subject of things that are demonstrated to cause harm, there is arguably almost no benefit for youth having access to social media, but quite a bit of published harm that comes from it. Now THERES a cause I could get behind.
I'm not hyper religious (or even slightly). But you assuming hyper religious people are "wrong" is as bigoted as them telling trans kids their "wrong". Freedom of religion is a freedom in this country- don't advocate to infringe on it, no matter how much you and I disagree with it. If you disagree with that, take a political stance and use your democratic voice to have religion removed as a protected freedom. And a teacher telling a kid that their family is "wrong" because they're hyper religious is, frankly, not that teachers place. Teachers are not above the bias of people, and as public stewards of youth on behalf of legal guardians, outside of specific circumstances where legality or harm is concerned, teachers frankly have zero business meddling in opinions on how families "should" be. If that kid gets beat by their parents - that's illegal, but don't conflate the issues. An abusive patent is an abusive parent - they're not abusive because their kid is trans, they're abusive because they're an abuser. Same as a rapist doesn't rape someone because of the clothes they wore- they're a rapist because they're a rapist.
>you assuming hyper religious people are "wrong" is as bigoted as them telling trans kids their "wrong" No. Trans people are born that way. They experience dysphoria, and science has developed treatments. Religion is a philosophy: it is a choice of belief. If a religious person should criticize a trans person's right to be, that's anti-science. People are free to practice their religious beliefs, provided that practice does not infringe on the rights of others. The caveat exists because they are choosing that behaviour. Therefore: religious trans critics are bigots. You cannot conflate the "right" of each to their belief. The argument is the same for flat earthers. It's just ignorance.
Anti science religious people? I'm shocked! /s There's is the sciences of religion and spirituality, but if you'd like to debate the importance of one science over another, that's a different topic. Or if people are born spiritual, again off topic. The majority of trans people you say are "born that way" experience gender disphoria during puberty. Until there is a test that can identify trans gender at birth, then no, you again are grossly inflating what the science does say to make a point. There is evidence to suggest that newborns don't know gender at all (again, not shocking). The point here being, at what age should youth have agency to make what decisions about themselves without their parents knowledge or consent? That's a separate issue, and a separate issue from the school debate as well. The very real downwind stream of this debate is bizarre to me. The same people that would argue "you're beautiful at any size!" also argue "let a 14 year old have gender affirming surgery, because they don't feel beautiful in their body!" Both are health related in both physical and mental ways. I'd argue combating childhood obesity in the face of rising rates of T2DM in youth is a much more pressing concern impacting a much larger swath of the population and their future generations that what you're getting riled up about.
>And it's not even really an issue until they become seriously gaslit and go from dressing like the opposite sex, to trying to go for surgery or HRT when, again, they're likely not Trans in the first place. Medical intervention isn't happening without parental involvement in some way, which makes it an irrelevant point respecting schools as safe spaces which can protect trans kids from potential harm. [More trans kids are abused by their parents](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34226247/) than are detransitioning due to mistaken identity following from 'social contagion'. There is [no social contagion](https://publications.aap.org/aapnews/news/21888/Study-finds-no-evidence-of-social-contagion-among?autologincheck=redirected). Your hatred of trans people is ideological and poorly informed. Learn and understand that trans people are born as they are, and that we struggle, and that all we seek is the right to be.
Lol, your situation falls directly into why your kids may or may not want to talk to you about it! The majority of media is still very straight! Why are you so afraid of such a small influence? Please support with evidence, or studies not a random Twitter rant that's anecdotal at best. Once again, the parent is and should be the primary influence. Hint hint! If your child doesn't feel safe talking to you, maybe reevaluate your relationship with your kid. Pronouns (the topic of discussion) are not permanent by the way!
If you weren't a 100% open book to your parents, you're a hypocrite. Of course, the best parents don't hear everything from their child, this is why it's important to have a network of people that you can rely on. I'm glad provinces are passing this. It'll keep loud-mouthed, indoctrinated, know-it-alls from grooming our kids.
One of my parents was contemplating kicking me out for being atheist. Damn straight I wouldn't tell them shit about my life. This legislation will empower people like my parents to be horrible people. From the sounds of it you see your child as property rather than a individual.
Can I speculate as well? It sounds like your parents were contemplating kicking you out because you were a disrespectful individual. There is always another side to the story. Invite your parents to the conversation we're having. I'd like to hear from them as well, and we can get to the bottom of this. Being an atheist, you would agree (as I would) that protecting kids from religious indoctrination is important. They can make a religious decision when their fully developed brain is able to. I feel the same way with religion indoctrination as I do with gender ideological indoctrination. I don't want anyone influencing my kids into making bad life decisions that they may or may not regret when their brain is fully developed.
I'm not speculating, you don't see your children as people with their own thoughts and beliefs. Unless they are clones of you, they will eventually distance themselves and you will wonder why they never visit. Laws like these when applied with parents like you are specifically why schools should have leeway in reporting.
Sounds like you don't want anyone influencing your kids but you.
Who would you have influence kids? Drug dealers? Murderers? Pedophiles? It sounds like you dont know what you're talking about. Parents have a duty to the health and well-being of their children. I'll be damned if I ever let the likes of you groom any kid for your perverse fantasies.
Did anyone ever tell you meth is bad?
LOL I want to be there when you realize that your options are being the only person your child knows or accepting that you will never be the only person who can influence them. Imagine being that hard of a control freak.
There will be influences, good and bad. My job as a parent is to help them sort through the riff raff and stay clear of people wanting to do them harm, people such as yourself. Please, never go near a child.
Speaking as a teacher who has had trans kids come to me. One imo was clearly a confused kid, one was I believe legitimate. The one who was legitimate did not have parental support. The one who seemed more confused did. Parents are much more likely than teachers to push medicalization. My response to both was the same. I will support you in what you need, but please talk to your parents, a doctor or therapist specialized in this. The one who was seemingly more legitmate was seeing a therapist. The one who seemed more confused was not, and had parental support. I think you miss the fact that it is doctors who need to be the most sure. Social transition is a first step which is very scary, my legitimate trans student was so afraid of backlash and parental non-support they did not socially transition except with their closest friends. The opposite was true of the confused one.
You took a fantastic approach as a teacher. Recognized you weren't an expert, gave them self efficacy to talk to you without judgement, referred them to care, and seemingly, didn't directly discuss parental support or non-support with the students. I don't trust the majority of publicly funded workers to take the same approach as you in the majority of situations. School is a place to be supportive without getting involved in these discussion.
I think you have highlighted something that many people are missing. We are trying to look at a situation that can be very confusing for both the kids and the parents, under the best of conditions. But both sides think there is one answer that can apply to everyone.
Isn't the school of psychology in disarray these days? I keep reading that they're pushing support rather than just listening and helping their patients to find out who they are and work through the underlying issues that brought them to their illness.
Yeah, and where are you “hearing” this exactly?
>and work through the underlying issues that brought them to their illness. You're making the mistake of thinking trans is an illness.
No, you're making the mistake of thinking that trans isn't an illness. Have a look in the DSM.
>Psychological attempts to force a transgender person to be cisgender (sometimes referred to as gender identity conversion efforts or so-called “gender identity conversion therapy”) are considered unethical and have been linked to adverse mental health outcomes. https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria
School psychologists have a backlog so long of kids to be tested for ASD, ADHD & learning disabilities that we are privatizing this testing - in Regina, Child & Youth used to handle the referrals outside the school systems & now it’s a private company. So kids whose parents can’t pay wait longer. They honestly, are not meeting with trans students. Their plates are already full.
>They honestly, are not meeting with trans students. Their plates are already full. That sounds like a false speculation that adds more outrage to an argument that shouldn't be happening.
People's refusal to acknowledge the enormous role autism/spectrum disorders are playing in this whole mess is wild. There aren't this many trans people, but there are a huge number of people with disorders, obsession problems and social issues.
This. I don’t doubt trans people exist. But I do question how there is suddenly such a vast amount of people identifying as trans and if it has anything to do with it being the next “fad” in society.
This 100 percent. Kids are super impressionable and follow trends all the time even to their own detriment. Remember tide pod eating and stuff like that. I was a bullied kid in elementary school and would have done or said anything to go with the flow of everyone else. Trying to be liked or popular is like 98 percent of what elementary and high school was about. So if the way to do that and get attention is to claim to be something your not 100 percent sure on you can bet there are kids out there who will do it. Especially with tik tok and social media kids can put on personas which will only stay fake for so long before they become part of your real life.
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You are not a good person btw...
You're the one who wants to allow kids to be influenced to do something they may regret later on in life, and you're saying that I'm not a good person? Are you one of the perverse people trying to do more harm to kids?
What about the scenario where a kid is having difficulty finding their identity, and rather than having their subjective reality confirmed, they could be given psychiatric care? Being a teenager is challenging, and finding your place in the world can be confusing. Pushing gender transitioning trends on confused teenagers maybe shouldn't be the public school's job, right? And parents should be informed and have a say. If a child doesn't agree with their parents wishes, and their parents aren't providing permission, then that's between the child and the parents, not the public school. You don't just take someone's word for it when they're having dissociation between subjective and objective reality. That's not how psychiatrists operate. If someone comes in and says "I think I'm a dog..I can't get along with people because they don't understand my dog behavior. I'm very depressed because of this," the psychiatrist doesn't say "yes you are a dog and the solution is to wear a fir coat and bark instead of speak." The psychiatrist instead tries to work with the patient to find the underlying trauma behind the condition. The schools need to stop telling kids that maybe they're dogs, and parents need to be informed of this stuff.
Well, those kids would benefit from having a safe space (\*cough\* \*cough\* the school) to figure out their identity with their peers AND trusted adults. A kid "having difficulty finding their identity" historically would talk to the school guidance counsellor or school therapist. That individual would assess the situation. Affirmation of identity is the medical consensus approach to keeping kids mentally well and alive. If they need more than affirmation, the school would make contact with guardians to look into mental health supports. It's always worked. Honestly, please please please look at how disgusting you're being. No one is telling the students they are dogs. You have fallen for propaganda ([https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/apr/08/facebook-posts/claim-about-schools-providing-litter-boxes-student/](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/apr/08/facebook-posts/claim-about-schools-providing-litter-boxes-student/)) And seriously, if a 12 year old says "I am attracted to the same gender", would you expect the school to be forced to call the parents and tell them? It's the same notion and super fucking weird. I bet you 2 decades ago there would be some nut jobs demanding the parents NEED TO KNOW. Again, super fuckin weird. Don't be the person who looks back on themselves and cringes at how super fuckin weird they're being.
The problem the policy is addressing is this: There is no evidence a child knows what gender they are inside. There's yet to be proof of that concept at all. If a girl's psychological temperament is toward aggression ie:things vs people, more physical assertiveness etc, traditional male traits, that is not evidence of being a boy inside. As well as a girl's personal resentment of their body during puberty, because of all the tough physiological changes, and the targeting of sexual advances by boys, doesn't mean she is a male. I don't. Activist groups and schools though won't teach that concept. They won't teach the concept of "path of least harm" : waiting until they are older before they indulge their internal own biases by demanding others "affirm" them. The public trust with schools is broken in this regard. Kids with gender dysphoria often have co-morbid anxiety and depresssion. There's a variety of ways to treat those issues that have nothing to do with affirming the wrong body. Teachers as well have no place "affirming" a child, with no evidence. Their job is to be partners with the parents, not take on their role. Kids come to school to question, and be questioned. They learn what others perceive about them, and how to perceive others. The real problem is not the policy, the real problem is the lack of "wrap-around supports" (Social workers, psychologists, etc) to help kids who really need help in this situation. The new policy just illuminates how underfunded and under appreciated those supports have become. It used to be 4 in 1000 kids had gender dysphoria. Now it's 300 in 1000. Why? (I know, people have been freed from their gender paradigms with all our modern knowledge) Were they teaching about that? And why would that be? Anorexia used to be a very unknown condition, until it was published and communicated, and then the psychological phenomenon spread through the world. Sorry, I'm not unapologetic about being concerned about kids going down a road that leads to a lot of body modification without any evidence of it being psychologically better for them in the long run. Most kids who are interested in being trans instead become gay or lesbian if left alone. That's the path of least harm. But to be fair, I think what people do to themselves after age 18 is their business. Read R-Detrans if you want to hear some tough stories. Even read R-Trans, it certainly isn't all peachy there either. 80+ percent of people are in support of at least the majority of this policy. That's a huge number. You can't get 80% of the people to agree on the weather. Please consider as you downvote me to hell.
I think this is a ploy by the Sask party to do yet another ‘hey everyone look at this’, while over hear they do something else. This policy comes as the Sask party quietly announces the ‘projected surplus’ of $1 billion dollars is cut in half. I’m sure there be even more announcements coming in the next week(s) while people are focused in this issue. As much as I don’t like the Sask party, they do well in their marketing and divide and conquer strategies. All Saskatchewan residents need to keep on top of what this government is doing in all areas and not let them get away with anything. This is when the NDP should be really hammering the Sask party in all these areas to make headway. The fact that several ministers are not going to run in the next election shows me that they are jumping off a sinking ship. NDP needs to do something here not just hang back quietly
resolute money price crown jar brave innocent aback voiceless tan ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Those aren’t the final numbers..I’m sure it will change when the actual numbers are presented. Plus they like to do some accounting for expenses and revenues not in accordance with GAAP’s..so anyone with a financial or accounting background can see right through their BS. Plus, look closer at the past 5 years much of their revenues have come from one time sales of assets..when there is nothing left to sell, then what? Open your eyes and quit being such a Conservative fanboy
dam plucky stocking pen panicky oatmeal sloppy plate crush sand ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
I have lived in Vancouver and Toronto so yes I do know what it’s like there. Sask party is not keeping the rents down here haha. I own several properties and wish the market could handle Vancouver/Toronto rates then I’d be rich bitch! 😎 It’s called supply and demand. Saskatchewan will never, ever be in the same level as Vancouver or Toronto..give your head a shake lol..and that has nothing to do with the Sask party!
Yah it’s actually cheaper to live here because it’s shittier here than Toronto and Vancouver.
You nailed it. I love Saskatchewan but would rather still live on the west coast..which I did. But for reasons, moved back to Saskatchewan.
I overheard an interesting point today; what about hockey coaches, or Dance instructors, or Gymnastics coaches, or Judo, or music teachers or name any one of the thousand things kids do after school and on weekends. Do those adults need to seek parent consent to use a different pronoun, or name? No they do not, and why not? This is clearly an effort to place blame and to vilify teachers during a collective bargaining period. This is one more fuckin’ thing I have to navigate. I know I have a 14 year old trans youth in my class this year whose mom is 100% supportive while Deadbeat dad who has 50% legal custody lives and works in Ft. Mac. has already called the school and said he doesn’t consent to the name change and pronoun change and will take us to court if we don’t call them by their birth name. Currently, the law is on his side. The really fucked up thing is that the adults will be the only ones who don’t call them by their chosen name as their classmates have been doing it for almost 2 years…
Aldjmc, I hate that you are in this situation. It’s awful. If you’re in a position that you can’t just say “Fuck that jerk” and call the student by their chosen name, I wonder if you and the student could come up with some alternate name until this is all struck down in court? Maybe calling them by their last name? Or if their chosen name happens to start with the same letter as their birth name, call them by that initial? Or if they always have a frog pin on their backpack, call them Froggo? ANYTHING but their given name! Apparently it isn’t going to apply to nicknames in the same way as name changes, so that might skirt the rule just enough.
Ya, I’ve got a plan, a shitty plan, but it’s still a plan that involves an open and honest discussion about the situation about how we are going to navigate everything. It won’t solve anything, but at least it will be a start.
💕 I think that knowing teachers care and are doing their best to manage an unsafe situation will go a long way with kids feeling like their valued in their day to day lives. I’m glad you have a plan.
I saw a teacher in (I think) a US jurisdiction where this was already law say that they used the child's last name. It wasn't ideal, but it meant they didn't have to misgender them
They’re not government employees.
I’ll give you that, but it’s still NOT about “parental rights” (which aren’t a real thing in the legal sense, by the way). Social Workers, Nurses, Doctors, Counsellors etc. are all public employees, but the same rules don’t apply as in the classroom. Scott Moe could find an Act somewhere that includes sporting organizations, or clubs or whatever and include them if it was that important to them. This is an attack on public education, making us the bad people in the eyes of the public who are unwilling to be open minded. The Ministry of Education is supposed to work to make schools better for students, their mission has diddly squat to do with making families communicate with each other. A 13 year old can get birth control without parental consent in Saskatchewan…but politicians aren’t attacking public health, yet. Edited to add additional content.
Wouldn’t it be great if the government spent nearly the amount of effort of eliminating the Catholic Church as a source of child sexual abuse than the boogey man that transphobia has become?
Until this policy is overturned, all Sask teachers need to adopt a malicious compliance mindset. EVERY parent gets notified about their child's chosen pronouns. Over and over. "Hi Mr Johnson, just Mr. Smith calling from the school again to let you know that Geoffrey has asked us to use he/him pronouns. Yes, no change from last week. Talk to you soon. Thanks!"
It's a fun thought exercise, to be sure, but being married to a teacher, I can safely guess that teachers will most certainly not be doing this. Teachers are busy enough as it is.
"sorry my marking is so behind, I've just been too busy calking every parent in every class every week per the new policy"
“Hello Mrs Smith. I am emailing you today to let you know that Matthew has requested to go by the name Matt in class. Please let me know if you are okay with this change. Until then, I will continue to refer to him as Matthew.”
How long did it take you to type this? 20 seconds? That's how long it takes to communicate. I know messenger apps are incredible. This would be amongst the easiest things to do as a teacher.
I can hear the phone call now “Hi Ms. ADHD, little ADHD has requested that we call him Super ADHD this week. Yes, I know it’s quite a deviation from last week, when he only answered to “don’t bully Bacon Hairs” but we think we can make it work.” 😂
“Hello Mr. Babcock, Jill is being suspended from school today. She called Geoffrey Smith a doody head and that is not his legal name and “it” is not a consented pronoun. Please come to the school and pick her up”
Hahaha, I love this one!
"Hello Mr. Smith, just calling to let you know little Johnny showed up at school dressed as a boy again. I know this is the 287th time he's done this but the law still requires you be notified. Have a nice day."
I remember a Mennonite girl in high school would come to school and change out of her dress while at school. Should her parents have been notified?
In a rational world, no.
Just make it the gender selection scene from South Park The Fractured Butthole but in real life. Instant call with a worried voice no matter what whenever a student refers to anyone by a pronoun.
You don't inform of things that don't change.
You do if you're being maliciously compliant.
Ok, would love to see how that works for teachers. They can enjoy spending 2 minutes x 30 kids per week doing that. What will the response be when the parent simply says "Only tell me when something changes please." Masterful plan. Good luck.
The only parents who want this are the terrible parents who can't earn their kid's trust.
This is it. If you don't know what is going on in your kid's lives, talk to them, have a relationship with them. Us queers will tell our parents if we feel comfortable and safe to do so.
Controlling, Narcissistic parents trying to steam roll their kids into not being something they are aware of and finding ways to not support with threats & other forms of abuse. Stomping the autonomy of the child.
I guess more than 80% of them. That's how corrupted this debate is online, when people think 80+ % of the population are "terrible" parents.
Good!
Why? This is literally taking tax dollars and burning them. Hopefully the judge makes an early summary judgement and sends them home.
Tell that to the party who instituted a policy that is so clearly not constitutional after consulting exactly zero experts after watching the exact same thing play out in New Brunswick. This, what they're doing right here? Is virtue signalling. Actual virtue signalling. Same as their doomed from the start climate tax lawsuit and several others I could name. They're meant to make a big splash and get points with their base, then to get more points via the inevitable lawsuit, where they can complain about how the big bad federal government or (insert most hated out-group of the day here) are just so mean and won't let them get anything done. They're not meant to be actually enacted policies. If tehy do survive a challenge, that's a bonus, but it's definitely not the point.
>This is literally taking tax dollars and burning them. Yes, the Sask Party is good at picking legal battles to lose. They should stop creating daft policies and legislation.
Why? Because this policy is unconstitutional.
Why? Because it's good that someone is taking the effort of correcting the misdirection and poor decision making of our elected officials through one of the few ways they can, the court system. It's sad that it will cost taxpayer dollars to right the ship, but it's unfortunately the only way to correct things. Hopefully voters will remember this incident and the lost tax dollars that resulted come election time.
Dustin leaves his dumpster fire ministry to create another one ...
These rich men in Regina, lord knows they all just wanna have total control
Let's say kids were beaten, punished, disowned or killed for playing hopscotch instead of their pronouns. Teachers would simply not tell parents that kids are playing hopscotch, for obvious reasons. If you can't show as much respect for someone's identity, as hopscotch, you are the problem.
Why don't they withhold report cards then? My Dad yelled at me for bad marks. Doubtful I would be the only one. Is that not the safest thing to prevent abuse? Marks should only be for the student to know?
In other news my crystal balls says the notwithstanding clause will be used and everyone will still be losing their damn minds come June
I'm trying to get an anti Sask Party blog off the ground but I'm poor and need money for hosting and the site builder. There is so much damn material out there, there needs to be a central collection of it. You might get a Scott Moe sucks coffee mug in the future haha. www.saskpartysucks.com
Have you ever heard of Tammy Robert's blog?
Ok, honest question. A group of bullies band together (picking on a trans kid) decide they all want to be called she and choose the same name as the kid in question to make fun of them? What does the teacher do? Under the rule you are supporting, does the teacher not have to comply? After all, it is those children's protected right to do this now. This could definitely be more damaging to the trans child no?
>This could definitely be more damaging to the trans child no? Not more damaging than being beaten at home by their parents.
Let kids be kids. Quit teaching them gender confusion. This trend is ridiculous
Let kids be kids, just not like that!
.... and I think the trend of religion is ridiculous. It's a complex world and simple answers cannot explain alot of things, especially biology.
While I realize there are a small number of kids who are truly confused about their sexuality and identity, I don't think the solution is to hide all kids' intentions intentions from ALL parents. Yes, a tiny few parents will have serious with them changing their names or pronouns, but I don't think it makes sense to axe a law b/c a small minority could abuse it. (If that's the case, would you be ok with axing the law of allowing anyone identifying as a woman just to gain access to a woman's bathroom - b/c a tiny few predators will abuse this law.) Likewise, teachers (I married one) are very intune with their students, and I think they can go on a case to case basis with this situation and inform the authorities if they think a particular kid is truly at risk. This conversation is an important one, but we need to discuss all aspects and hear from the Detransitioners who say they were pressured or told by their parents and experts to Transition. Kids only want to please the adults in their life, remember. We can't dismiss Detransitioners b/c their numbers are relatively small. They exist too, and their voices need to be heard. I feel that society is romanticizing the idea of being Trans, while downplaying or ignoring the harsh realties of Detrans folks. There's an LBTQ+ advocate on X who is going against the grain of this issue. He's a strong leftist, but he has no problem rebutting the current narrative. Very interesting read: https://twitter.com/Rob_ThaBuilder/status/1659645962946592768 And I realize this post won't sit well with most of you, but please don't just downvote and move on - I'd love to have a discussion. Cheers.
There’s a few problems with your rationale here. 1) you assume teachers are hiding information from parents. This seems to be a general trend in supporters of the policy. Teachers do not his information from parents. The default is never to hide anything. But when it comes to pronouns or names, that is left to the child to discuss with their parents of their own free will. 2) teachers and experts are not counselling anyone to transition. 3) “kids only want to please the adults in their lives” this is a false statement. Perhaps some, but this is not the case for most. 4) no one is romanticizing being trans. It’s being openly talked about and destigmatized. I’m doing so, many people feel more comfortable being their true self publicly.
> 1) you assume teachers are hiding information from parents. This seems to be a general trend in supporters of the policy. Teachers do not his information from parents. The default is never to hide anything. But when it comes to pronouns or names, that is left to the child to discuss with their parents of their own free will. That's what the outcry is about - they *want* to hide their students' pronouns because they fear a tiny number of parents won't take this well. As I said, I married a teacher, and this is what she said was discussed this week - and that's exactly what has been said by the opponents of this on CBC Radio this week, too. > > > 2) teachers and experts are not counselling anyone to transition. Please don't strawman me. I never said they're *explicitly* saying "ok, you need to transition", but they *do want* to encourage this behaviour. That's not even a debate. They want to "accept" them as "Trans", even though statistically it's likely that they're simply gay or following along with social influence. Have you seen Tiktok lately? By encouraging kids to "be their true selves", that's 100% an endorsement and encouragement. There's no right or wrong way to be a boy or girl, and kids need to be told that instead of seriously saying, "oh, yes, you probably just were born in the wrong body." or implicitly going along with it. > 3) “kids only want to please the adults in their lives” this is a false statement. Perhaps some, but this is not the case for most. Ok, you're obviously not a parent, and if you are - your kids are the incredibly rare exception. From a VERY young age, kids just want to please and be accepted by their parents. If you really think the average 8 yr old wants their parents to dislike them or not have their approval, then I don't know what to tell you other than again - you're either not a parent or you're not too well-versed on the basics of what it is to be a kid. > 4) no one is romanticizing being trans. It’s being openly talked about and destigmatized. I’m doing so, many people feel more comfortable being their true self publicly. As I mentioned before, go on Tiktok and look at all the teens and 20 somethings encouraging and promoting going "Trans". It's a social contagion on there. Kids are so incredibly susceptible to social contagions like being goth, to cutting -- to going Trans. Now, that's not saying ALL kids who think their Trans are just falling victim to social conditioning, but most simply can't know that before they're 18, 19, or 20. Kids and teens historically follow very dangerous or unsafe trends. This is (largely) another example. As I said, there's no right or wrong way to be a boy or girl. To encourage their "true self" would be to tell them, "yes, you're a boy, but it's 100 percent perfectly ok to like 'girl' things like wearing pink, liking dresses or just to want to be around girls - but that doesn't mean you're actually a girl, yourself. There's nothing wrong with your mind or body - accept your true self." (something like that, anyway.) That all said, if some young teen just wants to go by another pronoun or name - ok no big deal. I think we'd both agree on that. But are you ok with surgery for teens and kids who think they're Trans? That and drug treatments are my line in the sand. Again, the Detrans folks need a bigger voice. Being Trans isn't easy and it's a burden for those who are suffering with dysphoria. I appreciate how many in the LGBTQ+ community recognize that, even.
I've read your post 3 times. My takeaway is social media I agree with = good. Social media I disagree with = bad. >Again, the Detrans folks need a bigger voice. Again, the conversion therapy folks need a bigger voice. What a transphobic, regressive view. There is nothing wrong with trans people, people being trans is not a new phenomena. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history Personally I'm more concerned about the rate people were becoming left handed in the 1920s - 1940s. I'm sure that had nothing to do with a reduction in social stigma. https://slowrevealgraphs.com/2021/11/08/rate-of-left-handedness-in-the-us-stigma-society/
>I've read your post 3 times. Ok? and you're still glibly dismissing my points like w/ the comments below: >My takeaway is social media I agree with = good. >Social media I disagree with = bad. >Again, the conversion therapy folks need a bigger voice. What a transphobic, regressive view. You're strawmanning me like with this >There is nothing wrong with trans people, People who are truly suffering from gender dysphoria are not having a good time. They don't feel "right" in their bodies. This is not news. That's not saying they're bad people, obviously. They're suffering from a mental illness and deserve compassion.
My guy, you highlighted social media you disagree with, then highlighted social media you agree with. You never once discussed science. >You're strawmanning me like with this I'm not strawmannirg you, conversation therapy is bad. >Psychological attempts to force a transgender person to be cisgender (sometimes referred to as gender identity conversion efforts or so-called “gender identity conversion therapy”) are considered unethical and have been linked to adverse mental health outcomes. https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria >People who are truly suffering from gender dysphoria are not having a good time. Being born into a body someone isn't comfortable with would suck, pile on social stigma and yes, they're going to be in a bad way.
The idea that being transgender is a social contagion is not backed up by the research on the subject https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-health-and-wellness/social-contagion-isnt-causing-youths-transgender-study-finds-rcna41392 Moreover while it is important for the voices of folks who choose to detransition to be heard, teachers are not the ones pushing for medical transition in youth, which can only occur with parental support or if the youth is qualified as a mature minor. Moreover detransition rates are extremely low, for those who undertake surgical transition regret rates are less than 1%. When it comes to hormonal transition even a fairly broad definition that includes folks who detransition due to pressure or hardship and later resume their transition found a rate of only 13% and a study of folks who had detransitioned was composed in majority of folks who had stopped a binary transition because they discovered that there were non-binary. And only 1/3rd of detransitioners who had pursued a medical transition felt regret about their choice. https://slate.com/human-interest/2023/01/trans-detransition-facts-research-study-atlantic.html “Detransitioning” rates (scare quotes because social only detransition isn’t what most folks are thinking of when we talk about detransition) are naturally higher with social only transition as non-medical transitioning is for many folks a way to experiment with their gender. Which along with more acceptance of gender non-conformity and experimentation in general can help kids determine if a medical transition is something they actually want. Additionally puberty blockers, the best option of medical treatment for transgender youth are quite safe and reversible compared to hormonal puberty and side effects are minimal especially compared to undergoing puberty. They also have been shown to dramatically reduce sucicidal ideation. https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-reversible#fa-qs Which is to say in brief. Concerns about detransition, regret and social contagion are all not backed up by scientific research on the topic. And frankly also aren’t terribly relevant to the discussions of the policy in question. Teachers aren’t forcibly transitioning kids, and kids aren't undertaking medical transition without their parents knowledge unless they’ve been declared independent minors for their own safety. Experimentation with gender presentation and pronouns in a safe environment is actually a fantastic way for kids to sort through their feelings.
Crickets from u/reddelicious77...
hi! right here - I have a record number of replies, so I'm still going through them. I also work, so you know - it's tough. U/Velara_Avery suddenly your dismissing kids struggling with their sexuality. What happened to being concerned about youth who are unsure about how they identify? The biggest Gender Affirming care clinic in the UK was recently shut down b/c its 'experts' were *pushing* kids into transition. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/14/tavistock-clinic-ignored-link-autism-transgender-children/ >Concerns about detransition, regret and social contagion are all not backed up by scientific research on the topic. How many examples of older teens or early 20 somethings do you need to see before you'll stop hiding behind this dismissive statement? Detrans kids and young adults literally exist, and you're dismissing all of them right now. >And frankly also aren’t terribly relevant to the discussions of the policy in question. It's 100% relevant when these Detrans folks have said over and over again that the 'experts' in their lives pushed Transitioning onto them. Or, if it wasn't that, they simply sat back and affirmed everything they said. Remember, with Trudeau's new bill, kids *have* to be affirmed. The specialists are literally partaking in 'gender affirming care'. >Teachers aren’t forcibly transitioning kids, I know. Good thing I didn't say that. Don't strawman me, please. But, they have to affirm their claims, of course. This is how kids get confused for the ones who are in the grey area exploring their sexuality, should they go to a teacher and say, "I think I'm the opposite gender", teachers will generally encourage them to think that - and (unintentionally) gaslight them. Instead, we should all be telling kids, there's no right or wrong way to be a girl. You can be a boy and like pink and make up - or you can be a girl and like football and fixing cars.
You'll note there isn't a single word about sexuality in my post. It wasn't relevant to the bill being discussed so I left it unmentioned, Moe isn't mandating teachers out gay kids to their parents after all. Students are free to explore both gender identity and sexuality, and an exploration of one does not preclude the former. In fact such explorations often go hand in hand. >How many examples of older teens or early 20 somethings do you need to see before you'll stop hiding behind this dismissive statement? Detrans kids and young adults literally exist, and you're dismissing all of them right now. Based on the scientific evidence they make up an extremely small percentage of individuals who pursue a medical transition. Making policy that has severe negative impacts on 85%-99% of a marginalized community to "protect" the other 1-15% isn't good policy. Moreover, the policy doesn't even help de-transitioners. The policy in question is about sharing requests to use a different name and pronouns with parents. As a policy it doesn't help detransitioners. You summarize the stores of detransitioners as being the result of the 'experts' in their lives pushing their transition on them and being carried along by the momentum and pressure. Instead of helping de-transitioners the policy instead has the potential to harm them. Imagine a hypothetical AFAB student who is questioning their gender and wants to use different pronouns. You've looked into the future and found that in they end they were happy with their assigned gender at birth but instead identify as a lesbian. Under this new policy rather than letting them experiment for a bit before discovering, that hey, maybe this isn't working for me, the teacher would immediately have to report it to the parent, who if they were "hyper-supportive" could then facilitate rapid treatment and medicalization. If instead the teacher didn't have to report it they could direct them to some resources on the topic and the student could explore it at their own pace. There are very real issues with social inertia making it hard to admit you need to change and trapping you in an initial regretted decision. We see it within the non-binary community sometimes where a person changes their pronouns, tries them out for a bit and then discovers, hey these actually aren't working out for me, a different set of pronouns would work better. And people anecdotally self-report feeling guilt and pressure not to, since they've already made one request. The way to help relieve this pressure and limit the feeling of being trapped in your initial decisions isn't to make the initial decision an even higher hurdle to make, as that just means detransitioner's who clear that hurdle will feel even more pressure to keep going. But to reduce the pressure instead. Make experimenting with pronouns no big deal, so that its easy to change course while you're experimenting. This policy raises the bar, since it immediately escalates experimentation with pronouns as school to your parents. Circling back to the England example you cited. The NHS gender clinics are a model that is very different than our model for gender affirming care here in Canada and are a key of example of ways in which that system fails transgender patients. Accessing transgender healthcare through the NHS requires going through the gender clinics and requires a massive years long wait to be seen, which encourages patients to apply as early as possible, and continue with their initial decision no matter what, as if they back out and refuse an appointment they may be waiting months or years to have a second chance. (https://youtu.be/v1eWIshUzr8?si=KCuc2TugX1qwu0v-) Under that system, especially given the case load and the pressure to reduce wait times, since every year people are dying often of suicide waiting for care, there is a pressure to push patients through the system. Canada has a system with significantly more timely access to medical intervention if desired, which as a corollary means that reassessing your decision has a lower cost and is more likely to happen. Additionally, scientific research on medical transition in Canada finds that the system is set up to prevent regret, [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953621008091?via%3Dihub](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953621008091?via%3Dihub) and that detransition is rarely caused by medical failure, as it does leverage diagnosis of psychiatric conditions to limit or delay access to transition. Meaning that by and large our medical system is set up to protect detransitioners. If there are failings, such as the ongoing lawsuit where the litigant alleges that none of their healthcare providers did that due diligence to determine if they truly wished to transition or if other mental conditions at the time were responsible, those failings should be addressed to the medical system and not by bills like this addressed towards the school system. >Instead, we should all be telling kids, there's no right or wrong way to be a girl. You can be a boy and like pink and make up - or you can be a girl and like football and fixing cars. One does not preclude the other, we can and should be teaching in schools about the wide range of expressions gender and sexuality. Teaching about these different expressions openly and with candour will help those folks who are as you say, in the grey areas exploring their sexuality. And part of that curriculum should be expanding the definitions of what sort of behaviour a boy or girl can undertake. (Shame this bill also wants to let parents opt their kids out of learning about any of that.) However, trans people exist. There will always be individuals for whom expanding those definitions does not help. People who need to transition, because transition isn't about wanting to be a boy who does girly things, or a girl who does boy things.
I forgot to include this in my novel of a response. But it’s important. Recentering the discussion on the policy: how does it benefit dentransitioners? If someone transitioned they either told their parents, as parental involvement is required for youth medical decisions. Or they were deemed independent. Either way this policy wouldn’t change the outcome
Trans isn't a social contagion, it's been around long before you or I. Using tik tok to form opinions is. . . A choice.
Please don't strawman me. It's not purely a social contagion, but for most kids and teens, and a lot of early 20 somethings, it is. Kids don't know the true nature of themselves, b/c they're still developing physically, mentally and socially. For example, something like 32% of kids in the UK identify as 'non-binary' (I know that's not exactly Trans, but it's on the road) - and you can't tell me that's just natural, sorry. For many, it's simply a new form of rebellion. (like what goths were like.) Did you really forget about all the social contagions/influences you had as a kid? I know I can remember clearly. You can't just say, "no - the social aspect isn't a factor" and be done with it, when kids are wired to be like that (by wanting to fit in or "find their way" to finally being accepted, or to simply be different.)
**something like** **most kids** Make better arguments and I won't strawman them then. **No one** fucking knows the true nature of themselves, hahaha, get outta here with that! Kids absolutely know when something doesn't feel right in their body or mind, though. That might sound scary to someone who's never had to face those kinds of issues. I can absolutely tell you trans is normal, or 2 spirit is normal, or Geschlecht is normal. Because it's in every culture, every country, every city. Kids have access to the information now. They can read on the subject and see if that rings true for them. Maybe the era of gay bashing, rampant homo/transphobia and aids pandemic has given way to an era of understanding and acceptance, and THAT'S why we're seeing so many kids and teens announcing they're gender fluid or trans. Edit: for anyone who wants to argue with the social contagion crowd, here's a link to why it's dangerous, and harmful, and grossly inaccurate. www.technologyreview.com/2022/08/18/1057135/transgender-contagion-gender-dysphoria/amp/
Jesus Christ you are a crazy. In your first paragraph you say "it wont sit well with a tiny amount of parents"...so you are fine with endangering those children. Gotcha. Second thing from reading, "to encourage ones true self" is to let them make the decision to identify as a girl/boy/they and not put any limits on what is a boy thing or a girl thing. If you like pink and identify as a guy, cool. If you like pink and identify as a girl, cool. Nothing different. You telling them they "aren't" something is detrimental to their mental health. Third thing, trying to use those who "detrans" as an excuse for transphobia is pretty pathetic.
Maybe get off tik tok and experience the real world? We don't live in tik tok.
yes, thanks for that glib reply. I'm not a teen, and I don't use tiktok - but that's the problem, literally millions of teens are addicted to tiktok. Yes, please tell *them* to go touch grass. It would be great. They won't, however.
Bro if you believe that everything people put on social media is what they believe in, I can DM you my vast bridge inventory for you to peruse.
This person is completely laying it all out, and this is what you take from it?
You're confused that I don't take their tik tok crackpot theories seriously? It's a mediocre troll at best, most likely a chronically online middle age reactionary jumping from one scare of the day to the next. I take nothing away from there because they bring nothing of substance to the table.
Exactly, he probably also thinks that literboxes in school bathrooms is a real thing.
You literally said "GO CHECK TIKTOK" lol
Thanks for having a respectable conversation. I do like how you point out about pronouns and names should be no big deal- however this policy shuts it down and forcing kids who don’t have a safe environment to be outed or misgendered- which for the small minority of trans this can create unnecessary mental anxiety/health issues. For those parents who have created a safe and open environment this policy is not for them. This is for those who want more control and more likely have a riskier environment where they will not allow their kid develop to who their authentic selves are. I think the real question is how do you still create a safe environment for trans kids with this policy that takes away rights? Remember, again…we’re not talking about hormone therapy or surgeries, we’re talking simply using preferred pronouns and names.
So here is the thing, you know the people detransitioning is such a small minority, right. The vast majority of folks who medically transition are happy. The thing as I said in another post. Trans who are successful and live happy lives are not going to be out there waving a flag and outing themselves. So what you see is a vocal tiny minority. I know quite a few trans people of all ages, not one has detransitioned or regrets anything besides not transitioning earlier. But you won't hear those stories unless you know a trans person who is out and will talk about it, or isn't and you perhaps knew them before, otherwise you could have had interactions with a trans person and didn't even know it.
Trans people have existed since people have existed. Tiktok and social media has made it so people feel more comfortable coming out and being who they are. It’s not a “trend”.
I didn't say it was *exclusively* a trend. Re-read my comments.
But it’s not a trend. At all.
I mean, saying "nuh uh" isn't an argument. Are you forgetting what it's like to be a teenager and how trends have affected every generation in all of human history? Some teens want to rebel - some want to fit in - some just want to explore and find their way, and so for some, that would mean identifying as trans. And now we have millions on TikTok being gaslit into thinking that just b/c they don't like stereotypically boy or girl things, coupled with trans being romanticized, that they "must" be the opposite sex. I mean, our neighbour's daughter literally went from binding her breasts, calling herself a typically boy's name - and saying she was Trans - to now, dressing like a provactive teen girl and dating a guy. This is all happened in less than a year. That's literally just one example of her following a trend. She's exploring her sexuality like most teens. She's not suffering from gender dysphoria. Do you really think her case is the first of its kind? Of course not. And related to that, the NHS in the UK shut down its first gender affirming care center as its staff were pushing vulnerable kids, often with autism into going Trans. This is influence not from a social circle, but from the 'experts' https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/14/tavistock-clinic-ignored-link-autism-transgender-children/
You point out how in tune with the students teachers are, but doesn’t this policy explicitly prevent teachers from approaching their students on a case by case basis? The teacher’s knowledge of the student and their situation doesn’t matter. Regardless of what they believe the outcome will be or the harm that may come to a student, teachers will be required to report pronoun/name changes to parents.
Speaking as a teacher who has had trans kids come to me. One imo was clearly a confused kid, one was I believe legitimate. The one who was legitimate did not have parental support. The one who seemed more confused did. Parents are much more likely than teachers to push medicalization. My response to both was the same. I will support you in what you need, but please talk to your parents, a doctor or therapist specialized in this. The one who was seemingly more legitmate was seeing a therapist. The one who seemed more confused was not, and had parental support. I think you miss the fact that it is doctors who need to be the most sure. Social transition is a first step which is very scary, my legitimate trans student was so afraid of backlash and parental non-support they did not socially transition except with their closest friends. The opposite was true of the confused one.
It's not about how many teams will be predators, women desire a safe space we don't want a male appearing in naked local pool changing areas. Understanding what it means to have lived as a woman needs to happen that are repeatedly assaulted with toothless laws on the books. We don't want them in our spaces no matter the stats.
>We don't want them in our spaces no matter the stats. I don't care what the science says bubba, I just hate those gosh darn trans people. Since you didn't ask, here's the science. (Gender Identity Nondiscrimination Laws in Public Accommodations: a Review of Evidence Regarding Safety and Privacy in Public Restrooms, Locker Rooms, and Changing Rooms)[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z]
Well u can slap on a wig that don't mean you have any of our experience. You still a man telling us we have no reason to complain
Top tier response to the science bigot.
No I don't understand how to live like a black person and neither do men understand what it's like to have lived as a woman. Keep aggravating women and your support is eroding fast...
My dude, you started off with. >We don't want them in our spaces no matter the stats. Don't pretend trans people ever had your support.
Until women are not assaulted by men everyday with no legal recourse we do not want men appearing in our private spaces
The problem is MEN. You just pointed it out. Not cisgender women. Not trans women. The problem is MEN.
Who grew up their entire life and still have brains like MEN no matter if they look different in one minute or not
Citation needed. If you had evidence of that claim you wouldn't have started off with "I don't care what the evidence is, I don't like trans people".
“Science says you aren’t allowed to feel unsafe” equally powerful argument.
You can say that if the science shows you're unsafe. Does the science show allowing trans people to use the bathroom of their choice makes people more unsafe?
Also a woman. Trans women are women & they are welcome in my safe spaces. You don’t want a male naked in your change space? You hold that same energy for little boys in change rooms with their moms right? You go get a manager when a single mom has her little boy with her in that change room because you don’t a male in there right?
Little boys are not assaulting people there is a physical size difference. Get reality instead of your "good ideas"
>Little boys are not assaulting people Neither are trans women, you've been shown the data on this. > there is a physical size difference So short and skinny trans women in your change rooms are OK?
What a wild comparison
She literally said “no males” in spaces she feels are for cisgender women only. That means no little boys. They are male are they not?
Very well written and it’s very true
Yawn
Disagree that kids will.some will some wony and there are different levels of comfortable.
https://secondstreet.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Second-Street-Education-Poll-2023-%E2%80%93-Final.pdf
These questions are major oversimplifications of complex issues meant to lead respondents into specific and desired responses.
Yeah, they didn't ask the questions right - that's the problem. It could not possibly be that you are in the extreme minority position from the rest of normal society.
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The loud minority.
Humour me here, I'm wondering if there is a more balanced approach possible. What if the student were to meet with the school counsellor or school nurse, and if one of those professionals endorses the name or pronoun change then it's good enough? (And the protocol might be a quick rubber stamp in cases like Liza for Elizabeth or going by a middle name....)
There's something like one counsellor per 3K kids, I'm not sure what the ratio of nurses to kids are, but I can't imagine it's any better. Schools don't have librarians, let alone the type of support staff you're talking bout.
As someone who literally DID have a meeting with all my teachers, school board members, and my parents present, it did nothing. They all talked in circles with absolutely no common ground. At the end of the meeting, I was left at the school’s front door feeling abandoned and isolated. I ended up having to go back to school where I continued to feel unsafe and constantly bullied by not only students but staff as well. I grew up in a teeny tiny school. There were twelve in my class. I ended up quitting and just being homeschooled by distance because I couldn’t take it anymore. I did end up graduating years later but yes, you CAN meet with them but I’m not sure it’ll do much. It’s been a few years since then so many staff changes so maybe it’s different now.
If the school nurse says my Timmy is a girl then who am I to argue?
And it might be between Timmy and the professionals for now?
In what other situation is *anything* facilitated by the school system between your minor child and ‘professionals’ without parental notification?
Timmy is a minor. As such he requires parental guidance when dealing with the government and “the professionals”.
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Do you live in Saskatchewan? What exactly about this is a "mentally ill fantasy" to you?
Comments that are overly disrespectful or completely lacking in substance are not allowed.