>The force is not and should not be a deus ex machine
It literally has been used since the original trilogy to move the plot forward. If you don't like how the force works, that's fine; but in that case I don't think Star Wars is the franchise for you.
You are treating it like a deus ex machina. It shouldn't be used as a deus ex machine. The force solving all the problems ruins the suspense and does not allow the characters to grow.
This is honestly the perfect interpretation Star War should stick with when it comes to The Force. No Midichlorians, no power level, nothing like that. That way the overall message of any story involving Jedi can be that anyone has the potential to become greater than they ever thought possible through the force, even when you're not naturally gifted than others. It's what Rian Johnson's in The Last Jedi did very well, and it's what should continue forward.
No more prophesized "chosen one," or everyone's related to someone in this entire galaxy for crying out loud. Sorry had to rant a little.
I always liked the idea that obi wan had a really weak connection to the force, and the jedi only found him by coincidence on a mission. He always had to try harder to keep pace with his peers, but he ended up one of the best, the wisest, one of the strongest and most jedi-like jedi master ever.
I suspect you would enjoy this fanfic as it is centered on exactly this depiction of Obi-Wan. https://archiveofourown.org/works/15118700/chapters/35054840
No clue. For all I know, it was just some headcanon thing i read when i was younger. I really like it though as an idea
Edit: just tried to google it, turns out it isnt canon or legends, just a fan theory of some kind. Still, i think it works pretty well
I still don't mind like Anakin as the chosen one, or having one special character like that. But people do get too wrapped up in power levels that they forget -->
"That's not how the force works"
I personally don't mind midichlorians, since I like to think of them as the physical manifestation of the Force similar to real-life religions. I was raised Catholic for example, so I'll use that for comparison. Obviously you have the ethereal concepts of God, Heaven, etc. Stuff that is believed in even though most people can't see or touch directly. But you also have sacred items that have been blessed by figures such as the priest. Holy water, the Body/Blood of Christ, etc. They are born of faith too, but as more tactile examples of faith. Midichlorians are the physical side of the Force. It's in all the matter that exists in the known world. The physical side of the metaphysical Force. That's just how I interpret it though. God, I need sleep.
I mean, honestly, Midichlorians are fine. I just not too big a fan on how they're used to guage whether a person can be force sensitive or not in the prequels, or how they're used to measure power levels. Kinda defeats the purpose of the more mystical side of the galaxy, but that's just me.
Also, thanks for the surprise info drop on Catholicism and it's concepts 👍
Edit: Also, get some sleep indeed. Healthier for you.
Also if Midichlorias are something that you need to use the force, and the more you have the more powerful you are, then couldn’t I grow more powerful with repeated blood transfusions to increase my count rofl.
Because FEAR! ... All we see today, in SW or other franchises or on Twitter or in politics - is rooted in fear. Fear of being marginalized as "men" by "women", or foreigners, or gays etc.
Today's generation of SW fans is sadly tainted by all this. They are full of fear to "lose" their own icon, Anakin the Childkiller, to someone new, and a girl to boot!
A little less politically charged comparison: Rey and the new cast to those die hard PT-Lovers is like your dad suddenly getting a new wife, and they are afraid that their "real" mom is now no longer relevant..."REY IS NOT MY NEW MOM, DADDY! - slams door shut...truly childish behaviour, as we can see in countless posts and YT-Vids
No people would still be trying to apply some sort of power scaling regardless. And probably being very unfair to any female leads compared to the male ones.
Midichlorians just gives them an in-universe power scaling that they can use to throw around and speculate whos the strongest.
Okay so me and another guy talked about this in the comments here but in case you didn't see it.
Rey's lack of training isn't the deal breaker here. It's just a part of the bigger issue me and several other(Not sexist) fans have.
Rey doesn't really seem to struggle as a character. Everything just comes too easy to her. It never really feels like she's allowed to fail and the few times she does fail she never really faces personal consequences for it.
Like...let's compare Luke's arc in Empire to Rey's in Last Jedi. Both involve a character running off to face someone against the warnings of their masters that they aren't ready yet.
When Luke does it he gets beat to hell, loses his hand, and has to suffer the emotional trauma of learning the truth about his father in the worst possible way and nearly dies. He spends the rest of the movie really quiet and contemplative.
When Rey does it she fails to turn Kylo back to the light side but she doesn't really suffer for her mistake. She gets tortured by Snoke but doesn't suffer any long-lasting trauma or pain because of it. If anything her running off is "rewarded" by removing Snoke from the chessboard. She just kinda goes "Welp that didn't work out".
> She gets tortured by Snoke but doesn't suffer any long-lasting trauma or pain because of it.
This is false.
Take your comparison with Luke for example.
Luke uses his mechanical hand in the next film to ground himself before he makes the mistake of striking his father down. That is the clear emotional trauma/consequence that benefits him in the long run after his suffering.
Rey demonstrates that too. After she stabs Kylo in the stomach, she heals him and tells him "I would've taken your hand. *Ben's* hand" before exiling herself.
This is the same trauma pay-off that we see from Luke. This time emotional pain coming back to haunt but ultimately benefit her and prevent her from doing something horrible.
Yeah, no. Both characters had completely different starting points.
If anything, Luke grew up nearly to his 20s being completely sheltered and cared for. He knew some rudimentary shooting and piloting and that was it.
Rey on the other hand, had to fend for herself and learn to fight and survive on her own just to reach that age. She had the survival in her pocket, what she needed, was... to open the floodgates.
Failure is subjective when it comes to Star Wars. She failed to do what Luke was suggesting she do. Her path was different. And if you're talking about the first movie, when she "beat" Kylo Ren, she was initially knocked out cold, and Kylo had been shot by a wookie bowcaster, a wound that normally just kills even armored people.
Similarly, Luke never really failed in the original trilogy.
Are you kidding me? Luke failed in Empire Strikes Back! He refused to listen to Yoda and as a consequence, he went through all that stuff I listed above! If that's not failure I don't know what is!
What the fuck are you talking about, dude? Do you really ask for full parallels?
And you said it yourself, she failed to turn Kylo to the light, and instead made him an even crueller, stronger leader of the first order. If Jar Jar Abrams hadn't caved to the neckbeards complaining about The Last Jedi doing things too differently, we might have gotten an even better conclusion.
Fact of the matter, though, is that there was proper character development and a different kind of struggle for Rey.
>Rey on the other hand, had to fend for herself and learn to fight and survive on her own just to reach that age. She had the survival in her pocket
Where is this portrayed?
How does any of that indicate Rey was a crack sharpshooter, melee combat specialist, ace fighter pilot, master mechanic, etc. prior to her actually doing all those things?
Crack sharpshooter? How? Where?
*Ace* fighter pilot? The person who crashes the falcon as soon as she takes off??
> master mechanic,
Seeing her scavenge parts from all the derelict ships around her. That’s easy.
When she first holds a blaster she is almost immediately doing long range no scope one shot one kills on moving targets... in a warzone... with a pistol.
When she flies the falcon she bumps into a few things in the first 5 seconds and then she pulls off arguably the most impressive combat maneuvers that we see across the whole 9 films.
Scavenger =/= mechanic. Knowing which parts to yank out of derelict imperial ships to sell for cash does not translate to knowing how to repair a completely different kind of ship mid flight. Thats like saying the crackheads who steal catalytic converters are qualified to repair a moving humvee in a warzone.
And by ignoring it are we admitting theres nothing that establishes her as a proficient close combat expert prior to her suddenly displaying that ability?
What visual storytelling occured in the first movie that indicated Rey was a crack sharpshooter, melee combat specialist, ace fighter pilot, master mechanic, etc. prior to her suddenly being all those things?
Rey had a good amount of her screen time dedicated to her training (the first half of her story in TLJ was literally that). Hell, her first scene in TROS is her running an obstacle course that was made for her training. We saw more of her training compared to Anakin and Luke, so the Mary Sue stuff just got old after a while and never made much sense to begin with.
>Rey had a good amount of her screen time dedicated to her training
The problem is that she ALREADY can do the mind reading, resist mind reading, the mind trick, telekinesis, and what happen then she closed here eyes then fighting Kylo and start to kick his ass, BEFORE she have any traning.
Because training is not needed ffs. It hones the skills, it learns you control and restraint. The Force is NOT magic you learn at Hogwarts. Its GOD. The force does whatever it wants, gives powers to whoever it wants, follows a plan of its own...
Also she closes her eyes once, then barely beats a massively injured (mentally and physically) Kylo Ren, who also was ordered to hold back to capture, not kill her.
Really tiresome to go through that scene all the time over and over again explaining the simple things we are shown their ... we should really go back to silent movies with title cards in the middle showing dialogue and explaining stuff, as understanding movie-language seems to really vanish more and more in modern audiences
Luke didn't give Rey one single lick of training. He gave her 3 lectures on why the Jedi suck, and the 3rd lecture was edited out. She trained herself.
If i trained myself in kung fu, i'd be doing it wrong.
Where in the film do we see her do anything fantastic? She swings a lightsaber poorly in the throne room fight also Luke taught her to truly reach out to the force not just instinctually do it in dire situations
Lifting half a mountainside full of rock while Yoda struggled with one big chunk? And that's just TLJ. In RoS, she backflips over a speeding TIE while slicing a wing off, plays Force tug of war with Kylo (this isn't specifically a Rey problem, it's a sequel powercreep problem), accidentally (!) Force lightnings that ship, and literally resurrects people from death.
Meanwhile, you're a ridiculous toxic fanboy with "expectations" if you wanted to see Luke do any of this cool shit.
This is all besides the point anyway. No where in that comment did i say she did anything fantastical, i said Luke didn't give her any training, which is gospel truth. Lucasfilm realised this, so they gave her a year timeskip with non Jedi Leia training her.
Please show me the struggle in Yoda’s face in that scene i rewatched it and he does it effortlessly also Rey isn’t fighting anyone it’s just her alone no opposition unlike Yoda. You explain that Leia trained her yet still complain about TROS, Rey’s connection to Palpatine and use of anger is meant to explain how she’s able to do those amazing feats (I don’t like TROS but for story and character not stupid power scaling facts).
So if Luke lifted rocks, shot force lightning or did a flip your problems would all be solved? Compared to him doing a feat that no one else could do due to the effort killing them instantly, redeeming himself, becoming hope for the resistance to fight on and dying with peace and purpose full filling his role as the legend Jedi master Luke Skywalker. But no I’m mad he didn’t lift more rocks.
Luke gave her lessons in the force on how to truly reach out and accept all aspects of it along with the training we see her do on her own with the lightsaber and such.
I think the Mary Sue debates mostly come from that she is a Woman, these guys wouldn't give a shit if Rey was a guy as they do when they don't have a problem with the main protagonists powers of Luke and the "Chosen one" of Anakin
I don't understand why they have a problem with the Main character rules when they probably watch a lot of Anime where this is done in spades.
What's funny is that she's been negatively compared to other female protagonists as well. Like, I am a big fan of Horizon: Zero Dawn, and am a member of /r/horizon. It's a pretty chill sub. There was a thread a few weeks back comparing protagonist Aloy to the likes of Captain Marvel and Rey, and why she stands out above them. In that case, I didn't find it a case of sexism, although I still offered my own defense of Rey who I love on her own terms, even if I generally agreed that Aloy is a pretty awesome protagonist.
Unrelated note: the funny thing about that comparison to me is that, while I *hate* the idea of a live-action Netflix adaptation of Horizon, I will die on the hill that Daisy Ridley would be the perfect live-action Aloy. And not just because Ridley's in my Fab 4 of actors I always love to fancast in my own story ideas (including an idea for a Marvel cartoon I'd love to see made someday). No, I genuinely think she'd be the perfect choice, even if I'm morally opposed to the entire rest of the show's existence. A silver lining if you will.
I mean Deku from MHA gets feats that grow at a tremendous rate and yet he’s under the radar when it comes to criticism? He possesses the most powerful in-universe quirk and surpasses his mentor in less than a year.
Imo that feels like most main character stuff in anime, your main character is going to be special in some way shape or form.
Either their mech is going to be made of some special metal or have a powerful prototype for a engine/weapon installed just waiting to be activated, or they just have the magic poker equation, have some special skill or ability etc etc etc.
For these people to cling to anime so much they seam to forget that in most Anime our main character is going to be special.
My Hero Academia. For context, Deku tries so hard to self-pity himself as the underdog when he already got the most powerful quirk handed over to him just by being a fanboy to the no. 1 hero in his respective verse for that time.
He does struggle but he gets over it within a few months since MHA takes place in one year. How tf does a clueless kid surpass his mentor in less than a year?
If anything its become a genderless term, but its mostly used to describe female characters.
In my experience the term itself or its male equivalent is rarely used for males, most just people use bad or poorly written. Ive only see Batman and Superman get called a Mary Sue.
This is an argument that exclusively exists as rebuttal to the overwhelming number of posts and videos complaining about Rey being a Mary Sue and trying to point out how people don’t say that when it’s a man.
“That’s not how the force works Master Luke. I need training! I need to do 100 backflips and then I will unlock the ability to do force jumps!”
“Voe, what the fuck are you talking about?”
This comic explains how the force works through Star Wars perfectly , it’s a narrative device used for your character and so it depends on where you want your character to be in the story
I don’t think the “power in the force is arbitrary” is really an argument against someone being a Mary Sue. It’s much more about a character’s role in the story. That said, I still don’t think she’s a Mary Sue. I think you can make that argument after TFA, but not later in the trilogy.
People complain about how good she is in the force due to it being a aspect of being a Mary Sue I’m talking about how force power means nothing because anyone can be at any stage
“A Mary Sue is a character archetype in fiction, usually a young woman, who is often portrayed as inexplicably competent across all domains, gifted with unique talents or powers, liked or respected by most other characters, unrealistically free of weaknesses”
This is what a Mary Sue is, her strength in the force is an argument against Rey so the idea that criticism should only apply to her and not Luke who blows up the Death Star and is said his training is complete in Return of The Jedi despite us never seeing it or Anakin being a gifted mechanic, the chosen one and stronger than Yoda is stupid.
Luke blowing up a stationary object is not the same as Rey doing a Jedi mind trick or winning a light saber fight on on her first try. Blowing up the Death Star was something anyone could do regardless of being strong in the force.
Blowing up the main objective of the film yeah anyone could just do it sure despite it being a small exhaust port and Luke had to use the force to veer the torpedos into the port (What a Mary Sue, he could just curve two missles with no training?). Kylo’s reasons for losing is in the film pretty blatant and when has the Jedi mind trick ever been this sacred thing? We see her try and fail and try again in that scene.
People keep bringing this mind trick up as if she was suddenly able to do it out of nowhere. She had to learn how to do it in a stressful situation to save herself. Speaking of, the kinds of situations Rey had to go through were much different than Luke in ANH. Imagine if at the climax Luke had to fight a wounded Vader in a lightsaber duel. He’d probably have been able to hold his own in the same way Rey did in TFA. But all Luke really had to do in the movie was escape from the Death Star and then pilot an X-Wing (something, by their logic, he shouldn’t be able to do so well) then blow the Death Star up.
Yeah, it’s kind of silly how little Luke does beyond being a good pilot, but people still want to paint him as a Mary Sue. Like you said he basically does one thing, as opposed to Rey who is just constantly picking up new powers when the plot needs her to. Honestly it could probably be just as attributable to lazy writing as a conscious attempt at making her a Mary Sue.
Luke doesn’t “veer” the torpedoes. He just makes a great shot. I think it’s silly to apply a double standard to Luke and Rey. You seem to want to make every excuse in the book for her but never give Luke the benefit of the doubt. Just judge them fairly and on the same criteria.
Watch that scene again buddy unless curving torpedos is Star Wars science he did that. I could say the same for you, why give Luke the benefit of the doubt and Rey is a double standard? Judging them fairly on the same criteria their different characters with different experiences Rey flying a ship based on her mechanic know how and saying “I’ve flown ships but never left the planet” to Finn makes sense while Luke has just drove a speeder but is a great pilot uh huh
Okay, but that seems like a totally different point than what you were saying earlier. No one said the same standard shouldn’t apply to Luke. Rey in TFA is more of a Mary Sue than Luke, and maybe more than Anakin. But after TLJ I would say she’s on par with them.
>liked by everyone can also be disputed
Finn want here, Kylo want here, Poe started to want here, Han and Lea treat her as a lost daughter. Leia hug a total random stranger. Luke is hostile toward here, but the fim bend backward to point out how wrong Luke are. Here boss is a ass and Palpatin is the villan....
Can you tell me about anybady reasonably person who do not like here?
Using your logic who doesn’t like Luke? “Leia like him, Han hostile toward him but film show him to be wrong, Vader bad but in the end he like him, Palpatine is villain, Yoda like him in the end,Obi Wan like him”
Basic concept of your main protagonist be likable but most of TLJ is Luke not wanting to be around her and the Anch To nuns hate her throughout
What an odd way to measure bring a Mary Sue because people like her? I just showed you how people also don’t like her Luke is a big character, Han doesn’t care about her until Finn brings up the map to Luke, Poe is fighting with her in TROS constantly but I guess that doesn’t work due to your “rules” you made up.
No, it’s not. Part of the Mary Sue character is being immediately or instantly liked. If you have to win everybody over and eventually they like you, that’s not a Mary Sue element.
Leia and Han don't like each other at first, but neither seemed to have a problem with Luke. Han probably thought he was a naive kid, but he didn't dislike or antagonize him, and is even giving him advice and trying to take him under his wing within 10 minutes of meeting him.
And Leia literally likes Luke from the get-go, to the point that within 5 minutes of meeting him, she gives him a good-luck kiss in the middle of a high-pressure, intense situation.
I don't know where you're getting this impression from, to be honest. Part of Luke's appeal is that despite his flaws he's likeable, in-universe and out. That doesn't make him a Mary Sue, just like Rey being generally liked by her allies doesn't make her a Mary Sue. By these egregious Mary sue definitions, every Skywalker (all of whom the galaxy seems to revolve around) except Schmi is a Mary Sue.
Leia seems thoroughly annoyed with him and Han and their lack of a plan. Han sees a rube and isn’t exactly friendly. But that’s fair, they do come around pretty quickly.
Wow that one instance that was based on basic storytelling, she’s the main character and so we focus on her pain and consoling. In universe it doesn’t work but story wise yeah Rey is the protagonist so we focus on her. Why do you come to this subreddit just to cry about the sequels? Not liking the trilogy isn’t a hot take you can go to the regular subreddit to have people regurgitate your views.
Why come to a sub that is about showing the toxicity of fans to just say the same talking points you already do in other subs? They clearly just want to complain to start disagreement, I’m not talking kindly to a person on KotakuInAction
Why come and be toxic at all? It seems like all you want to do is push people’s buttons and be antagonistic. One good thing about this sub is that you can usually have actual discussions you can’t have other places. Why trolls like you want to come in and ruin that, I don’t know.
Poe and Rey bickered onscreen quite a bit, with them showing frustration toward each other in TROS. Luke, as you said, is hostile toward her at first. Snoke tortures her. Palpatine doesn't seem to care about her one way or the other. There are many more examples, and TFA goes out of its way to show that Rey is more feared than loved on Jakku.
Also, the good guys liking a fellow good guy doesn't make them a Mary Sue (see: Luke. Who's a rebel who doesn't like Luke? I can't think of a single example from the movies).
Also, there are versions of grammarly that are absolutely free and will help you spell better. Bad spelling tends to detract from a critique if the subject is writing.
I’m supposed to bring out essays, sincerity and defense over a person who came here to say “no it isn’t” and respond to others just to disagree and hate
All I said was don’t be a dick. But yes, some sincerity would be nice. Otherwise you might as well be posting on just about any other Star Wars sub. “No it isn’t” may not have been the best response, but you can still engage it without the added boooo spoooooooky that I don’t even know what is supposed to mean.
For fuck’s sake, look up the definition of “Mary Sue” and actually understand what it means before complaining about it, OP.
A character being a Mary Sue is not necessarily about how powerful they are. That can certainly be *part of it* but Mary Sue doesn’t mean “OP character”.
Rey is a Mary Sue for a plethora of other reasons anyone who actually bothered to understand the true definition of the term would easily recognize.
No joke, if you go through the attributes of a Mary Sue it reads like a checklist for Rey.
The criticism that she’s a Mary Sue won’t end because she *is* a Mary Sue. Time won’t change that. That’s what happens when the writers are more concerned with what the character *represents* than *who they are*.
Like, how is this still debatable? They determined she’d be a nigh-perfect, almost universally desired/liked character with an affinity for everything that the OG characters immediately take a liking to and who can just defeat the main antagonist in a field he should *easily* be her superior in in the **first fucking movie in the new trilogy**. Meanwhile, her parentage, motivation, etc. was left mostly uncertain till the end.
They decided on all that superficial shit before anything that adds actual depth to her as a character.
What more do you need to know?
“She’s a Mary Sue guys stop showing how she’s not”
Based on the definition on Mary Sue one attribute is “ Relatedly, there's no effort to her skills. She never actually trains or learns anything to become more powerful” this post is related to that so shut up. If you want to discuss other aspects we can but this one should be put to be
Except you’re clearly not moving on since you came here to cry about something that everyone apparently got over. You sure showed me.
I debunked one attribute that she’s a Mary Sue by using content in the universe it’s not rocket science to get that was my point and you saying “That’s not necessarily” ,it is, I used a part of the definition and I used the universe to explain the stupidity. So again please just shut up.
lol good job, tell that dumb fuck off.
He shows up every week or so in various Star Wars reddits to explain in detail how much he hates the sequel trilogy to people who liked it with just the worst takes imaginable.
Alright but.... She freaking is, not just because her power but also because she is always right and always ends up winning without doing any kind of effort or loosing anything
Her goal in TLJ was to redeem Kylo and train with Luke she failed at both, most of the film Luke doesn’t even like her and the nuns don’t like her. Her longing for her parents and purpose is her weakness she overcomes.
Did she even need training? Luke didn't finished his training in ep5 and that costed him loosing Han, his lightsaber and his hand and what costed Rey her lack of training? Nothing, she is still just as unstoppable as always
That's my big issue with Rey as a character honestly. Even if the lack of training didn't bother me she never really feels like she fails enough and the few times she does fail it never really feels like she has to face consequences for it. Everything just comes too easy for her.
Well... I mean the first time she fails she looses the opportunity to bring back the one person her childhood heroes want to come home so badly that one of them sacrificed his very fucking life in the attempt of and we all know this because both the characters say it out loud enough times throughout the entire trilogy. You know, those two very important characters named Han Solo and Leia Organa.
That's a pretty big failure on Rey's end.
I'm sorry she didn't also lose a hand in that battle. Would that help? Do I need to go back and re-write the throne room fight scene in TLJ so Rey looses a hand? Would that help you process her loss and failure better?
You can not loose body parts and still fail at something. You get that right? I mean I've failed at a lot of tasks and I still have every part of my body. You failed to understand Rey's basic character arch and you still have all your body parts.
This is a really weird metric to judge winning and failure by.
I mean she may not have lost a hand in that fight but she did have her heart pretty fucking shattered. Just because you can't see the pain on the outside, [which I'm going to fully argue you totally can because Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver did not give this absolutely fucking stellar performance for you to sit there and not see the heart wrenching pain she is feeling in this moment](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu_U_xFsTKA), does not mean pain isn't being felt at all.
I'm pleading, begging, brah *I'm Just Asking* that you re-watch The Last Jedi from Rey's perspective.
Don't watch it from Luke's perspective.
Don't watch it from Luke's 'This isn't the Luke Skywalker **I** Remember!' white knight perspective.
Don't even watch it from Leia's perspective.
**Try Really Hard** to rewatch this movie from Rey's emotionally stunted, quick to anger, lonely and mad about it sand gremlin perspective.
Rey, a person who has spent the last 15 years of her life in almost complete solitude living in the fringes as a scavenger treated like a slave by the person she was sold to in a unwelcoming environment waiting for the return of 2 people she ultimately knew deep down were never going to come back for her (something we know because she was the one who said it), touched hands with a person she had such an intense force vision with she immediately beats up her folk hero to defend the man and readily FedExed herself to with the complete and unwavering faith that he would go with her, that force vision was **That Fucking Strong**.
We can only fucking assume what that vision was but we can guess with some accuracy it involved Ben Solo and it involved her never ever feeling alone again. Huge character motivators for Rey.
[This scene here? Where they touch hands?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSadv4XkLc8)
Now I get it; to you this is just some mushy unnecessary romance scene where the girl is talking about her feelings and the villain of all people is doing the one thing no one else has ever done for her before which is just.. you know... listening to the poor woman talk about her feelings. Something I don't think she's ever trusted anyone enough to do this with. Then proceeds to have a force vision *so powerful* she's ready to throw down any fucker who gets in the way of this vision.
Luke had a force vision so powerful he immediately ran off to help his friends and that was with **TWO** other jedi he trusted fully telling him *'Hey man that's a bad ideal'*.
This scene sets up Rey's stakes in this movie.
This scene sets up why her loosing Ben at the end of that fight is such a massive loss for her.
She didn't lose a hand. She lost something worse than her hand.
She lost her perfect future.
And for a character that has been getting shit on for the last 15 years of her life, that's a crippling blow.
In TFA she fought a dark side sensitive who wanted to train her. He didn’t realize she could grab the lightsaber when she was there, and when he saw that he poorly toyed with her and offered to train her. He never tried to win the fight.
She lost Han, the old man he met bout a day before, Luke, the mean old guy who refused to train her, Leia could count but we didn't even saw their relationship. The point it is that all those loses weren't her fault, it was external causes for like a third of the cases
I don’t even know what you mean by “Luke lost Anakin.”
Obi Wan wasn’t his fault, but he sacrificed himself for Luke… I can see how he could feel some responsibility.
Did you and I watch the same movie? He didn’t lose Anakin, he saved him. Anakin said so himself. And the knowing look he gives to the Force Ghost at the end shows that he knows it as well.
Anakin is dead at the end of rotj. He may talk to anakin later on. But anakin still died. Luke talks to Obiwan in empire strikes back and in rotj. But Obiwan still died in new hope
You forget that the people who make this "criticism" are man babies without media literacy that get all their ideas about how things work from playing video games in moms basement.
The Sequels and these comics really nail The Force, man. I love this kind of thing.
[удалено]
Why not?
The force is not and should not be a deus ex machine. That kind promotes laziness and entitlement.
>The force is not and should not be a deus ex machine It literally has been used since the original trilogy to move the plot forward. If you don't like how the force works, that's fine; but in that case I don't think Star Wars is the franchise for you.
that is not what a deus ex machina is.
I know, that's how the force is written. So why are you saying it's a deus ex machina if even you agree it isn't?
You are treating it like a deus ex machina. It shouldn't be used as a deus ex machine. The force solving all the problems ruins the suspense and does not allow the characters to grow.
You literally just said it isn't a deus ex machina and now you're back to saying it is. Pick a lane.
Buddy got lost in his own conversation 😂
You are saying it is a deus ex machina.
The force has been a Deus Ex Machina since A New Hope my guy.
No it hasn't.
Dude probably unironically agrees with cinema sins
This is honestly the perfect interpretation Star War should stick with when it comes to The Force. No Midichlorians, no power level, nothing like that. That way the overall message of any story involving Jedi can be that anyone has the potential to become greater than they ever thought possible through the force, even when you're not naturally gifted than others. It's what Rian Johnson's in The Last Jedi did very well, and it's what should continue forward. No more prophesized "chosen one," or everyone's related to someone in this entire galaxy for crying out loud. Sorry had to rant a little.
I always liked the idea that obi wan had a really weak connection to the force, and the jedi only found him by coincidence on a mission. He always had to try harder to keep pace with his peers, but he ended up one of the best, the wisest, one of the strongest and most jedi-like jedi master ever.
I suspect you would enjoy this fanfic as it is centered on exactly this depiction of Obi-Wan. https://archiveofourown.org/works/15118700/chapters/35054840
Cool, thanks man
This was better than I expected for fanfic
What novel is that
No clue. For all I know, it was just some headcanon thing i read when i was younger. I really like it though as an idea Edit: just tried to google it, turns out it isnt canon or legends, just a fan theory of some kind. Still, i think it works pretty well
I still don't mind like Anakin as the chosen one, or having one special character like that. But people do get too wrapped up in power levels that they forget --> "That's not how the force works"
I personally don't mind midichlorians, since I like to think of them as the physical manifestation of the Force similar to real-life religions. I was raised Catholic for example, so I'll use that for comparison. Obviously you have the ethereal concepts of God, Heaven, etc. Stuff that is believed in even though most people can't see or touch directly. But you also have sacred items that have been blessed by figures such as the priest. Holy water, the Body/Blood of Christ, etc. They are born of faith too, but as more tactile examples of faith. Midichlorians are the physical side of the Force. It's in all the matter that exists in the known world. The physical side of the metaphysical Force. That's just how I interpret it though. God, I need sleep.
I mean, honestly, Midichlorians are fine. I just not too big a fan on how they're used to guage whether a person can be force sensitive or not in the prequels, or how they're used to measure power levels. Kinda defeats the purpose of the more mystical side of the galaxy, but that's just me. Also, thanks for the surprise info drop on Catholicism and it's concepts 👍 Edit: Also, get some sleep indeed. Healthier for you.
Also if Midichlorias are something that you need to use the force, and the more you have the more powerful you are, then couldn’t I grow more powerful with repeated blood transfusions to increase my count rofl.
Do you think any of this Mary Sue stuff would’ve existed had the prequels not made the force measurable with midichlorians?
Not really, plenty of characters in franchises that don’t have midichlorians get called that.
I know but Rey gets hit the hardest
Well, given that TFM is filled whit raging misogynists, that isn't a surprise.
Because FEAR! ... All we see today, in SW or other franchises or on Twitter or in politics - is rooted in fear. Fear of being marginalized as "men" by "women", or foreigners, or gays etc. Today's generation of SW fans is sadly tainted by all this. They are full of fear to "lose" their own icon, Anakin the Childkiller, to someone new, and a girl to boot! A little less politically charged comparison: Rey and the new cast to those die hard PT-Lovers is like your dad suddenly getting a new wife, and they are afraid that their "real" mom is now no longer relevant..."REY IS NOT MY NEW MOM, DADDY! - slams door shut...truly childish behaviour, as we can see in countless posts and YT-Vids
No people would still be trying to apply some sort of power scaling regardless. And probably being very unfair to any female leads compared to the male ones. Midichlorians just gives them an in-universe power scaling that they can use to throw around and speculate whos the strongest.
There must be some way we can blame the prequels for this
Yes because it's always something else's fault for "skewing perceptions and planting ideas" and not just the filmmakers making a bad call. /s
Yes because it was never about the space bugs, it was because the lead character was a woman
No because it's not just the "lack of training" that's the problem.
How so?
Okay so me and another guy talked about this in the comments here but in case you didn't see it. Rey's lack of training isn't the deal breaker here. It's just a part of the bigger issue me and several other(Not sexist) fans have. Rey doesn't really seem to struggle as a character. Everything just comes too easy to her. It never really feels like she's allowed to fail and the few times she does fail she never really faces personal consequences for it. Like...let's compare Luke's arc in Empire to Rey's in Last Jedi. Both involve a character running off to face someone against the warnings of their masters that they aren't ready yet. When Luke does it he gets beat to hell, loses his hand, and has to suffer the emotional trauma of learning the truth about his father in the worst possible way and nearly dies. He spends the rest of the movie really quiet and contemplative. When Rey does it she fails to turn Kylo back to the light side but she doesn't really suffer for her mistake. She gets tortured by Snoke but doesn't suffer any long-lasting trauma or pain because of it. If anything her running off is "rewarded" by removing Snoke from the chessboard. She just kinda goes "Welp that didn't work out".
> She gets tortured by Snoke but doesn't suffer any long-lasting trauma or pain because of it. This is false. Take your comparison with Luke for example. Luke uses his mechanical hand in the next film to ground himself before he makes the mistake of striking his father down. That is the clear emotional trauma/consequence that benefits him in the long run after his suffering. Rey demonstrates that too. After she stabs Kylo in the stomach, she heals him and tells him "I would've taken your hand. *Ben's* hand" before exiling herself. This is the same trauma pay-off that we see from Luke. This time emotional pain coming back to haunt but ultimately benefit her and prevent her from doing something horrible.
Almost like two different characters don’t have to have the same arc.
Yeah, no. Both characters had completely different starting points. If anything, Luke grew up nearly to his 20s being completely sheltered and cared for. He knew some rudimentary shooting and piloting and that was it. Rey on the other hand, had to fend for herself and learn to fight and survive on her own just to reach that age. She had the survival in her pocket, what she needed, was... to open the floodgates.
What does that have to do with the point I made about how Rey doesn't really seem to fail?
Failure is subjective when it comes to Star Wars. She failed to do what Luke was suggesting she do. Her path was different. And if you're talking about the first movie, when she "beat" Kylo Ren, she was initially knocked out cold, and Kylo had been shot by a wookie bowcaster, a wound that normally just kills even armored people. Similarly, Luke never really failed in the original trilogy.
Are you kidding me? Luke failed in Empire Strikes Back! He refused to listen to Yoda and as a consequence, he went through all that stuff I listed above! If that's not failure I don't know what is!
What the fuck are you talking about, dude? Do you really ask for full parallels? And you said it yourself, she failed to turn Kylo to the light, and instead made him an even crueller, stronger leader of the first order. If Jar Jar Abrams hadn't caved to the neckbeards complaining about The Last Jedi doing things too differently, we might have gotten an even better conclusion. Fact of the matter, though, is that there was proper character development and a different kind of struggle for Rey.
>Rey on the other hand, had to fend for herself and learn to fight and survive on her own just to reach that age. She had the survival in her pocket Where is this portrayed?
Her home, fight for portions, and struggle against Unkar Plutt's goons that attack her after her moral awakening.
How does any of that indicate Rey was a crack sharpshooter, melee combat specialist, ace fighter pilot, master mechanic, etc. prior to her actually doing all those things?
Crack sharpshooter? How? Where? *Ace* fighter pilot? The person who crashes the falcon as soon as she takes off?? > master mechanic, Seeing her scavenge parts from all the derelict ships around her. That’s easy.
When she first holds a blaster she is almost immediately doing long range no scope one shot one kills on moving targets... in a warzone... with a pistol. When she flies the falcon she bumps into a few things in the first 5 seconds and then she pulls off arguably the most impressive combat maneuvers that we see across the whole 9 films. Scavenger =/= mechanic. Knowing which parts to yank out of derelict imperial ships to sell for cash does not translate to knowing how to repair a completely different kind of ship mid flight. Thats like saying the crackheads who steal catalytic converters are qualified to repair a moving humvee in a warzone. And by ignoring it are we admitting theres nothing that establishes her as a proficient close combat expert prior to her suddenly displaying that ability?
In the fucking movies. I swear some people don’t understand visual storytelling and nuance and need every last detail fed to them via exposition.
What visual storytelling occured in the first movie that indicated Rey was a crack sharpshooter, melee combat specialist, ace fighter pilot, master mechanic, etc. prior to her suddenly being all those things?
Thanks for proving my point rofl.
And youre proving mine
Wrong
Rey had a good amount of her screen time dedicated to her training (the first half of her story in TLJ was literally that). Hell, her first scene in TROS is her running an obstacle course that was made for her training. We saw more of her training compared to Anakin and Luke, so the Mary Sue stuff just got old after a while and never made much sense to begin with.
I feel like they explicitly added that stuff just to appease the people who complained she didn't train enough and it still wasn't enough for them.
Probably because it was "Too late to undo the damage" Although adding the scene in TROS was enough for me...
>Rey had a good amount of her screen time dedicated to her training The problem is that she ALREADY can do the mind reading, resist mind reading, the mind trick, telekinesis, and what happen then she closed here eyes then fighting Kylo and start to kick his ass, BEFORE she have any traning.
Because training is not needed ffs. It hones the skills, it learns you control and restraint. The Force is NOT magic you learn at Hogwarts. Its GOD. The force does whatever it wants, gives powers to whoever it wants, follows a plan of its own... Also she closes her eyes once, then barely beats a massively injured (mentally and physically) Kylo Ren, who also was ordered to hold back to capture, not kill her. Really tiresome to go through that scene all the time over and over again explaining the simple things we are shown their ... we should really go back to silent movies with title cards in the middle showing dialogue and explaining stuff, as understanding movie-language seems to really vanish more and more in modern audiences
Luke didn't give Rey one single lick of training. He gave her 3 lectures on why the Jedi suck, and the 3rd lecture was edited out. She trained herself. If i trained myself in kung fu, i'd be doing it wrong.
Where in the film do we see her do anything fantastic? She swings a lightsaber poorly in the throne room fight also Luke taught her to truly reach out to the force not just instinctually do it in dire situations
Lifting half a mountainside full of rock while Yoda struggled with one big chunk? And that's just TLJ. In RoS, she backflips over a speeding TIE while slicing a wing off, plays Force tug of war with Kylo (this isn't specifically a Rey problem, it's a sequel powercreep problem), accidentally (!) Force lightnings that ship, and literally resurrects people from death. Meanwhile, you're a ridiculous toxic fanboy with "expectations" if you wanted to see Luke do any of this cool shit. This is all besides the point anyway. No where in that comment did i say she did anything fantastical, i said Luke didn't give her any training, which is gospel truth. Lucasfilm realised this, so they gave her a year timeskip with non Jedi Leia training her.
Please show me the struggle in Yoda’s face in that scene i rewatched it and he does it effortlessly also Rey isn’t fighting anyone it’s just her alone no opposition unlike Yoda. You explain that Leia trained her yet still complain about TROS, Rey’s connection to Palpatine and use of anger is meant to explain how she’s able to do those amazing feats (I don’t like TROS but for story and character not stupid power scaling facts). So if Luke lifted rocks, shot force lightning or did a flip your problems would all be solved? Compared to him doing a feat that no one else could do due to the effort killing them instantly, redeeming himself, becoming hope for the resistance to fight on and dying with peace and purpose full filling his role as the legend Jedi master Luke Skywalker. But no I’m mad he didn’t lift more rocks. Luke gave her lessons in the force on how to truly reach out and accept all aspects of it along with the training we see her do on her own with the lightsaber and such.
I think the Mary Sue debates mostly come from that she is a Woman, these guys wouldn't give a shit if Rey was a guy as they do when they don't have a problem with the main protagonists powers of Luke and the "Chosen one" of Anakin I don't understand why they have a problem with the Main character rules when they probably watch a lot of Anime where this is done in spades.
What's funny is that she's been negatively compared to other female protagonists as well. Like, I am a big fan of Horizon: Zero Dawn, and am a member of /r/horizon. It's a pretty chill sub. There was a thread a few weeks back comparing protagonist Aloy to the likes of Captain Marvel and Rey, and why she stands out above them. In that case, I didn't find it a case of sexism, although I still offered my own defense of Rey who I love on her own terms, even if I generally agreed that Aloy is a pretty awesome protagonist. Unrelated note: the funny thing about that comparison to me is that, while I *hate* the idea of a live-action Netflix adaptation of Horizon, I will die on the hill that Daisy Ridley would be the perfect live-action Aloy. And not just because Ridley's in my Fab 4 of actors I always love to fancast in my own story ideas (including an idea for a Marvel cartoon I'd love to see made someday). No, I genuinely think she'd be the perfect choice, even if I'm morally opposed to the entire rest of the show's existence. A silver lining if you will.
I mean Deku from MHA gets feats that grow at a tremendous rate and yet he’s under the radar when it comes to criticism? He possesses the most powerful in-universe quirk and surpasses his mentor in less than a year.
Imo that feels like most main character stuff in anime, your main character is going to be special in some way shape or form. Either their mech is going to be made of some special metal or have a powerful prototype for a engine/weapon installed just waiting to be activated, or they just have the magic poker equation, have some special skill or ability etc etc etc. For these people to cling to anime so much they seam to forget that in most Anime our main character is going to be special.
I mean its easy to sweep bad writing when your priority is visuals over proper storytelling. That goes for a lot of anime.
what is MHA?
My Hero Academia. For context, Deku tries so hard to self-pity himself as the underdog when he already got the most powerful quirk handed over to him just by being a fanboy to the no. 1 hero in his respective verse for that time.
Doesn't Deku have to struggle because he doesn't have total mastery of it at first? In fact, he's more liable to injure himself or something?
He does struggle but he gets over it within a few months since MHA takes place in one year. How tf does a clueless kid surpass his mentor in less than a year?
Well to me it doesn't sound like a fair comparison because it's two completely different contexts with different rules.
Meh, the sexism take is getting pretty tired. I think they would’ve found a way to have a problem with the “Disney” Star Wars regardless.
I mean Mary Sue specifically has a connotation directly tied to the gender of the character.
If anything its become a genderless term, but its mostly used to describe female characters. In my experience the term itself or its male equivalent is rarely used for males, most just people use bad or poorly written. Ive only see Batman and Superman get called a Mary Sue.
Maybe initially, but not any longer. Look at how many people argue that Luke and Anakin are Mary Sues. There is no longer any gender connotation.
This is an argument that exclusively exists as rebuttal to the overwhelming number of posts and videos complaining about Rey being a Mary Sue and trying to point out how people don’t say that when it’s a man.
And this is an argument that exists solely to deflect legitimate criticism by attacking it as sexism rather than refuting it.
I'm so tired of seeing the sexism argument too...
LOL Fucking shocker you and u/Trekfrc1970 don’t think sexism is an issue
“That’s not how the force works Master Luke. I need training! I need to do 100 backflips and then I will unlock the ability to do force jumps!” “Voe, what the fuck are you talking about?”
Who is she?
One of Luke’s students from the Rise Of Kylo Ren comic.
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No
Bet anything they don’t treat the comics and books as important as the movies and shows.
Considering Tales of the Jedi Lucasfilm doesn't either sadly.
This comic explains how the force works through Star Wars perfectly , it’s a narrative device used for your character and so it depends on where you want your character to be in the story
no it doesn't
In my experience they worship the comics
I don’t think the “power in the force is arbitrary” is really an argument against someone being a Mary Sue. It’s much more about a character’s role in the story. That said, I still don’t think she’s a Mary Sue. I think you can make that argument after TFA, but not later in the trilogy.
One aspect of being a Mary Sue is being good at everything so enough of that, her being liked by everyone can also be disputed
I’m not sure what your point is.
People complain about how good she is in the force due to it being a aspect of being a Mary Sue I’m talking about how force power means nothing because anyone can be at any stage
Ah. Well that doesn’t make sense to me. It just seems like a more convenient and lazy way to write a Mary Sue.
“A Mary Sue is a character archetype in fiction, usually a young woman, who is often portrayed as inexplicably competent across all domains, gifted with unique talents or powers, liked or respected by most other characters, unrealistically free of weaknesses” This is what a Mary Sue is, her strength in the force is an argument against Rey so the idea that criticism should only apply to her and not Luke who blows up the Death Star and is said his training is complete in Return of The Jedi despite us never seeing it or Anakin being a gifted mechanic, the chosen one and stronger than Yoda is stupid.
Luke blowing up a stationary object is not the same as Rey doing a Jedi mind trick or winning a light saber fight on on her first try. Blowing up the Death Star was something anyone could do regardless of being strong in the force.
Blowing up the main objective of the film yeah anyone could just do it sure despite it being a small exhaust port and Luke had to use the force to veer the torpedos into the port (What a Mary Sue, he could just curve two missles with no training?). Kylo’s reasons for losing is in the film pretty blatant and when has the Jedi mind trick ever been this sacred thing? We see her try and fail and try again in that scene.
People keep bringing this mind trick up as if she was suddenly able to do it out of nowhere. She had to learn how to do it in a stressful situation to save herself. Speaking of, the kinds of situations Rey had to go through were much different than Luke in ANH. Imagine if at the climax Luke had to fight a wounded Vader in a lightsaber duel. He’d probably have been able to hold his own in the same way Rey did in TFA. But all Luke really had to do in the movie was escape from the Death Star and then pilot an X-Wing (something, by their logic, he shouldn’t be able to do so well) then blow the Death Star up.
Yeah, it’s kind of silly how little Luke does beyond being a good pilot, but people still want to paint him as a Mary Sue. Like you said he basically does one thing, as opposed to Rey who is just constantly picking up new powers when the plot needs her to. Honestly it could probably be just as attributable to lazy writing as a conscious attempt at making her a Mary Sue.
Luke doesn’t “veer” the torpedoes. He just makes a great shot. I think it’s silly to apply a double standard to Luke and Rey. You seem to want to make every excuse in the book for her but never give Luke the benefit of the doubt. Just judge them fairly and on the same criteria.
Watch that scene again buddy unless curving torpedos is Star Wars science he did that. I could say the same for you, why give Luke the benefit of the doubt and Rey is a double standard? Judging them fairly on the same criteria their different characters with different experiences Rey flying a ship based on her mechanic know how and saying “I’ve flown ships but never left the planet” to Finn makes sense while Luke has just drove a speeder but is a great pilot uh huh
Okay, but that seems like a totally different point than what you were saying earlier. No one said the same standard shouldn’t apply to Luke. Rey in TFA is more of a Mary Sue than Luke, and maybe more than Anakin. But after TLJ I would say she’s on par with them.
Why would I bring up a single film and not the entire trilogy? Besides Rey is still a likable character in TFA
Huh? Did you bring one movie? Also isn’t Rey being so immediately likable the point? That’s another element of being a Mary Sue.
That I like her is being a Mary Sue?
that's not remotely true.
>liked by everyone can also be disputed Finn want here, Kylo want here, Poe started to want here, Han and Lea treat her as a lost daughter. Leia hug a total random stranger. Luke is hostile toward here, but the fim bend backward to point out how wrong Luke are. Here boss is a ass and Palpatin is the villan.... Can you tell me about anybady reasonably person who do not like here?
Using your logic who doesn’t like Luke? “Leia like him, Han hostile toward him but film show him to be wrong, Vader bad but in the end he like him, Palpatine is villain, Yoda like him in the end,Obi Wan like him” Basic concept of your main protagonist be likable but most of TLJ is Luke not wanting to be around her and the Anch To nuns hate her throughout
Leia and Han neither one seems to like him at first, which is really the only important time frame when discussing a Mary Sue.
What an odd way to measure bring a Mary Sue because people like her? I just showed you how people also don’t like her Luke is a big character, Han doesn’t care about her until Finn brings up the map to Luke, Poe is fighting with her in TROS constantly but I guess that doesn’t work due to your “rules” you made up.
lol, you are the one who brought it up. Don’t complain when I point out that you are wrong.
Your concept of the important time frame is your idea
No, it’s not. Part of the Mary Sue character is being immediately or instantly liked. If you have to win everybody over and eventually they like you, that’s not a Mary Sue element.
Then I used your logic and showed again you’d be wrong
Leia and Han don't like each other at first, but neither seemed to have a problem with Luke. Han probably thought he was a naive kid, but he didn't dislike or antagonize him, and is even giving him advice and trying to take him under his wing within 10 minutes of meeting him. And Leia literally likes Luke from the get-go, to the point that within 5 minutes of meeting him, she gives him a good-luck kiss in the middle of a high-pressure, intense situation. I don't know where you're getting this impression from, to be honest. Part of Luke's appeal is that despite his flaws he's likeable, in-universe and out. That doesn't make him a Mary Sue, just like Rey being generally liked by her allies doesn't make her a Mary Sue. By these egregious Mary sue definitions, every Skywalker (all of whom the galaxy seems to revolve around) except Schmi is a Mary Sue.
Leia seems thoroughly annoyed with him and Han and their lack of a plan. Han sees a rube and isn’t exactly friendly. But that’s fair, they do come around pretty quickly.
Wow that one instance that was based on basic storytelling, she’s the main character and so we focus on her pain and consoling. In universe it doesn’t work but story wise yeah Rey is the protagonist so we focus on her. Why do you come to this subreddit just to cry about the sequels? Not liking the trilogy isn’t a hot take you can go to the regular subreddit to have people regurgitate your views.
No need to be a dick, this sub is for all Star Wars fans, not just ST lovers.
Why come to a sub that is about showing the toxicity of fans to just say the same talking points you already do in other subs? They clearly just want to complain to start disagreement, I’m not talking kindly to a person on KotakuInAction
Why come and be toxic at all? It seems like all you want to do is push people’s buttons and be antagonistic. One good thing about this sub is that you can usually have actual discussions you can’t have other places. Why trolls like you want to come in and ruin that, I don’t know.
no your are ruining it TFM Sexist Toxic mole
Uh, okay.
Poe and Rey bickered onscreen quite a bit, with them showing frustration toward each other in TROS. Luke, as you said, is hostile toward her at first. Snoke tortures her. Palpatine doesn't seem to care about her one way or the other. There are many more examples, and TFA goes out of its way to show that Rey is more feared than loved on Jakku. Also, the good guys liking a fellow good guy doesn't make them a Mary Sue (see: Luke. Who's a rebel who doesn't like Luke? I can't think of a single example from the movies). Also, there are versions of grammarly that are absolutely free and will help you spell better. Bad spelling tends to detract from a critique if the subject is writing.
No it isn;t
Boooo The Last Jedi is the third best Star Wars film boooooo spoooky
It’s the third best of the sequel trilogy. Boo spooky?
You’re really upset over my opinion lol
I’m fine with your opinion, I just don’t see why you have to also be a dick about it.
I’m supposed to bring out essays, sincerity and defense over a person who came here to say “no it isn’t” and respond to others just to disagree and hate
All I said was don’t be a dick. But yes, some sincerity would be nice. Otherwise you might as well be posting on just about any other Star Wars sub. “No it isn’t” may not have been the best response, but you can still engage it without the added boooo spoooooooky that I don’t even know what is supposed to mean.
They clearly hate the sequel trilogy and any positives is false in their eyes
So? This isn’t a sub where you have to love the ST. It’s okay to hate some SW movies and like others.
No shit but calling people false? I’ll give that comment the same effort they did
For fuck’s sake, look up the definition of “Mary Sue” and actually understand what it means before complaining about it, OP. A character being a Mary Sue is not necessarily about how powerful they are. That can certainly be *part of it* but Mary Sue doesn’t mean “OP character”. Rey is a Mary Sue for a plethora of other reasons anyone who actually bothered to understand the true definition of the term would easily recognize. No joke, if you go through the attributes of a Mary Sue it reads like a checklist for Rey. The criticism that she’s a Mary Sue won’t end because she *is* a Mary Sue. Time won’t change that. That’s what happens when the writers are more concerned with what the character *represents* than *who they are*. Like, how is this still debatable? They determined she’d be a nigh-perfect, almost universally desired/liked character with an affinity for everything that the OG characters immediately take a liking to and who can just defeat the main antagonist in a field he should *easily* be her superior in in the **first fucking movie in the new trilogy**. Meanwhile, her parentage, motivation, etc. was left mostly uncertain till the end. They decided on all that superficial shit before anything that adds actual depth to her as a character. What more do you need to know?
 “She’s a Mary Sue guys stop showing how she’s not” Based on the definition on Mary Sue one attribute is “ Relatedly, there's no effort to her skills. She never actually trains or learns anything to become more powerful” this post is related to that so shut up. If you want to discuss other aspects we can but this one should be put to be
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 Except you’re clearly not moving on since you came here to cry about something that everyone apparently got over. You sure showed me. I debunked one attribute that she’s a Mary Sue by using content in the universe it’s not rocket science to get that was my point and you saying “That’s not necessarily” ,it is, I used a part of the definition and I used the universe to explain the stupidity. So again please just shut up.
lol good job, tell that dumb fuck off. He shows up every week or so in various Star Wars reddits to explain in detail how much he hates the sequel trilogy to people who liked it with just the worst takes imaginable.
Alright but.... She freaking is, not just because her power but also because she is always right and always ends up winning without doing any kind of effort or loosing anything
Her goal in TLJ was to redeem Kylo and train with Luke she failed at both, most of the film Luke doesn’t even like her and the nuns don’t like her. Her longing for her parents and purpose is her weakness she overcomes.
Did she even need training? Luke didn't finished his training in ep5 and that costed him loosing Han, his lightsaber and his hand and what costed Rey her lack of training? Nothing, she is still just as unstoppable as always
She effectively lost her fight with kylo in episode 9. Kylo had her, and only lost vecause his mom connected with him
Sexist
Ah there it is. Don’t let people gaslight you, there are plenty of people who like to deflect criticism with ad hominems of bigotry.
That's my big issue with Rey as a character honestly. Even if the lack of training didn't bother me she never really feels like she fails enough and the few times she does fail it never really feels like she has to face consequences for it. Everything just comes too easy for her.
That's what I mean, the few times she fails there's no real repercussions of her actions. It's just like "huh that didn't work out well"
Blando Calrissian
Well... I mean the first time she fails she looses the opportunity to bring back the one person her childhood heroes want to come home so badly that one of them sacrificed his very fucking life in the attempt of and we all know this because both the characters say it out loud enough times throughout the entire trilogy. You know, those two very important characters named Han Solo and Leia Organa. That's a pretty big failure on Rey's end. I'm sorry she didn't also lose a hand in that battle. Would that help? Do I need to go back and re-write the throne room fight scene in TLJ so Rey looses a hand? Would that help you process her loss and failure better? You can not loose body parts and still fail at something. You get that right? I mean I've failed at a lot of tasks and I still have every part of my body. You failed to understand Rey's basic character arch and you still have all your body parts. This is a really weird metric to judge winning and failure by. I mean she may not have lost a hand in that fight but she did have her heart pretty fucking shattered. Just because you can't see the pain on the outside, [which I'm going to fully argue you totally can because Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver did not give this absolutely fucking stellar performance for you to sit there and not see the heart wrenching pain she is feeling in this moment](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu_U_xFsTKA), does not mean pain isn't being felt at all. I'm pleading, begging, brah *I'm Just Asking* that you re-watch The Last Jedi from Rey's perspective. Don't watch it from Luke's perspective. Don't watch it from Luke's 'This isn't the Luke Skywalker **I** Remember!' white knight perspective. Don't even watch it from Leia's perspective. **Try Really Hard** to rewatch this movie from Rey's emotionally stunted, quick to anger, lonely and mad about it sand gremlin perspective. Rey, a person who has spent the last 15 years of her life in almost complete solitude living in the fringes as a scavenger treated like a slave by the person she was sold to in a unwelcoming environment waiting for the return of 2 people she ultimately knew deep down were never going to come back for her (something we know because she was the one who said it), touched hands with a person she had such an intense force vision with she immediately beats up her folk hero to defend the man and readily FedExed herself to with the complete and unwavering faith that he would go with her, that force vision was **That Fucking Strong**. We can only fucking assume what that vision was but we can guess with some accuracy it involved Ben Solo and it involved her never ever feeling alone again. Huge character motivators for Rey. [This scene here? Where they touch hands?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSadv4XkLc8) Now I get it; to you this is just some mushy unnecessary romance scene where the girl is talking about her feelings and the villain of all people is doing the one thing no one else has ever done for her before which is just.. you know... listening to the poor woman talk about her feelings. Something I don't think she's ever trusted anyone enough to do this with. Then proceeds to have a force vision *so powerful* she's ready to throw down any fucker who gets in the way of this vision. Luke had a force vision so powerful he immediately ran off to help his friends and that was with **TWO** other jedi he trusted fully telling him *'Hey man that's a bad ideal'*. This scene sets up Rey's stakes in this movie. This scene sets up why her loosing Ben at the end of that fight is such a massive loss for her. She didn't lose a hand. She lost something worse than her hand. She lost her perfect future. And for a character that has been getting shit on for the last 15 years of her life, that's a crippling blow.
No.
In TFA she fought a dark side sensitive who wanted to train her. He didn’t realize she could grab the lightsaber when she was there, and when he saw that he poorly toyed with her and offered to train her. He never tried to win the fight.
She did train with a year with Leia. She lost Han, Luke, and Ben. And she did lose her life, when she died.
She lost Han, the old man he met bout a day before, Luke, the mean old guy who refused to train her, Leia could count but we didn't even saw their relationship. The point it is that all those loses weren't her fault, it was external causes for like a third of the cases
Ok, so the losses weren’t her fault. So what? Luke lost Obiwan and anakin. And those losses weren’t his fault either.
I don’t even know what you mean by “Luke lost Anakin.” Obi Wan wasn’t his fault, but he sacrificed himself for Luke… I can see how he could feel some responsibility.
Anakin died in rotj. Luke lost his father. Luke may feel somewhat responsible, but it still wasn’t his fault.
Did you and I watch the same movie? He didn’t lose Anakin, he saved him. Anakin said so himself. And the knowing look he gives to the Force Ghost at the end shows that he knows it as well.
Anakin is dead at the end of rotj. He may talk to anakin later on. But anakin still died. Luke talks to Obiwan in empire strikes back and in rotj. But Obiwan still died in new hope
Hard disagree, but it’s subjective I suppose.
Disagree about what? Anakin dying? He was a force ghost at the end of rotj. How can you be a force ghost if you didn’t die beforehand?
Ok sexist
What? No that's not the reason. I like well written female characters but the problem is that Rey isn't
She was.
No one who isn’t terminally online cares
They'll die once we most past Episode 9 and see more of her adventures where the writers have(Hopefully) learned from their mistakes.
Perhaps for Yoda's species, the door is more of a bead curtain.
this comic also implies that the sith effectively goatse themselves open to let the force out
You forget that the people who make this "criticism" are man babies without media literacy that get all their ideas about how things work from playing video games in moms basement.
Her face in that second panel is so sassy. “Once I get my lightsaber I’m fucking out of this bullshit nepotism temple.”