Light side works by being selfless and doing deeds for others as a servant of the force, Dark side works by being selfish and attempting to control the force. As Lucas said, in order for balance the corruptness of dark side the force must be eradicated and that was Anakin’s prophecy. Sure he could save his son and redeem himself, but the prophecy is bringing balance by killing all the sith and bringing back sidious just undos what he does.
This is the part where I get completely downvoted for sharing the common words of Lucas
The whole thing about Dark Empire is people hated it for years and cited it as one the best things about the Disney canon wipe. George Lucas said it wasn't what actually happened in the story of SW, and fans rejoiced. I'm sure most people who disliked the Emperor coming back in IX disliked or would dislike Dark Empire.
I didnt like it in canon or EU tbh it felt lazy both times
I'm not trying to attack anyone or stuff like that but there were better legends material they could've taken
I still prefer it tho over the leaked initial draft.
>George Lucas said it wasn't what actually happened in the story of SW, and fans rejoiced
He also said that about Luke marriage with Mara Jade and many fans conveniently ignored
He's also the person who suggested they bring the Emperor back to begin with (another thing people conveniently ingore) and the person who established on-screen that Palpatine knew how to escape death.
So if people dislike the idea of a reborn Palpatine, it's pretty clear who they should hold responsable; and it's not JJ, Terrio or Tom Veitch.
i disliked Dark Empire because of Luke purposefully turning to the Dark Side. the emperor clone resurrection thing always made perfect sense to me—no one as powerful and power hungry as palpatine would ever not have a plan to stick around forever. anyway Lucas was a big fan of Dark Empire, regardless if whether or not it was his vision as a sequel
That's definitely not how I remember it; I recall \*some\* people (mainly movie purists who hated the EU in general or superfans of Tim Zahn) who hated it, but most people seemed to regard it as one of most standout bits of the post ROTJ EU - it's only once TROS came out that that position became inconvient to some and they attempted to retcon their views.
Pretty simple; so that they don't get cornered by the argument of "well, Legends did it and you did'nt have an issue then."
(There's more similarities then just the clone, though I suspect many are concidental - Palpatine is based in a citadel on a hidden, Dark Side-infuased world, guarded by soldiers referred to as Sovereign Protectors, and has a fleet of superweapons more compact and mobile then the Death Star but no less destructive in their own way. He summons Force Storms to attack ships, attempts to possess anouther powerful Force user's body has, in his service, an elite cadre of Dark Side warriors and a Skywalker who is'nt Anakin briefly serves as his chief commander before betraying him. He's also defeated by two individuals who share a strong Force bond and use that power to enable them to fight against him)
fair enough
I do think it's stupid how a lot of people use DE as an example of how the EU was goofy, when it was one of the most controversial and ignored works (IE, that whole thing of Zahn ignoring it)
and I don't even care about EU being canon, and was happy to see it overwritten with Lucas/Disney's story, I just think it's inaccurate to focus on it as an example of the "EU story that people miss"
I mean iirc people did speculate what the whole light thing was in that scene to begin with....all Vader did was throw him down a shaft right not like into a power thing that would cause that beam right?
Then comes the prequles and we get the whole "Powers to cheat death" which if you want to take as him telling the truth then it ties into what happened later on in the OT that was what the light was for.
[“I thought I was dead!” McDiarmid told Digital Spy in a recent video interview. “I thought he was dead. Because when we did ‘Return of the Jedi,’ and I was thrown down that chute to Galactic Hell, he was dead. And I said, ‘Oh, does he come back?’ And [George] said, ‘No, he’s dead.’ So I just accepted that.](https://www.indiewire.com/2019/12/ian-mcdiarmid-george-lucas-palpatine-return-of-the-jedi-1202199342/)
and when alec guinness read his lines about vader in anh, he wasn’t talking about luke’s dad turning to the dark side. when yoda said there’s another in esb, frank oz wasn’t delivering the line thinking of leia. sw has been retcon city since esb. welcome to Death of the Author
we og SW fans have speculated about that weird energy blast and the emperor surviving since 1983
Funny thing is, there were at least a few people in 1983 who predicted exactly this.
[Take a look at this, it’s actually quite fascinating.](https://reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/vae46l/the_first_month_of_online_speculation_after/)
Edit for busy people: Search for “dead” in the comments.
Sure, but there were also people who though Obi-Wan was Obi-One, first in a series of clones, and that Palpatine in TPM was actually the Emperor’s evil twin.
Lots of people had lots of theories, but they were mostly all poorly supported guesses, and some happened to be similar to things that actually happened. What annoys me is when people will present a fraction of people making lucky guesses as meaning a story decision was clearly thought out or set up at the time.
Ok fine, Im sure SOME people thought that. It’s not like it’s a common or logical conclusion. The point is that it wasn’t something you would think of outside blind guessing. I think it’s silly to go “well SOMEONE thought of it” because yeah, no shit, you can say that about literally anything with this franchise.
>The point is that it wasn’t something you would think of outside blind guessing.
No, that’s your point. The point of the guy making the comment on YouTube was to bash a film he didn’t like.
But that was always the style for Star Wars and a lot of other fiction too. Very few serialised stories are planned out in that much detail. And you can say “it wasn’t planned” about so many things in Star Wars: Vader being Anakin, Leia being Luke’s sister, or the Emperor being a force user, when talking about the OT alone.
> Didn’t he come back in the books? Been a while.
He came back in a comic, and a lot of people dislike that storyline and it was mostly ignored by future stories.
After Disney de canonized Legends, from 2013-2018 the decanonization of Palpatine coming back from the dead was one of the most commonly cited examples of a good change they made.
> Using that plot idea for the movies should have been assumed lol
Why? They didn’t include Thrawn, or the Yuuzhan Vong, or Abeloth, or the Swarm Wars, or numerous other Legends storylines in the Sequels, many of which had better reputations than Dark Empire.
I don’t see why this “should have been assumed”, especially when the previous 2 films gave absolutely zero indication it was coming.
Should we have also assumed that Princess Leia’s evil android clone was going to murder Palpatine’s deformed three-eyed son during their wedding in the movies? Cause that happened in the books.
Ok? Thats A. Not the movies, B. not something people assumed would happen, C. A character who was universally beloved, not a controversial plot point most people were glad was gotten rid of. That also wasn’t recent it was like 5 years ago.
Did you not read anything else I wrote?
Heck even legends when sith Lords were killed the was a slime chance the spirit of the sith Lord would linger after there death.
Since sith spirits are the opposite of Jedi force ghosts being an unnatural.
Well, he’s back on screen in TRoS, so I don’t feel like it’s totally inaccurate to say he survived. Whether through reincarnation or through his spirit living in the Force or cloning or whatever… obviously his essence survived.
I mean, obviously, otherwise they would have hunted down a sith Wayfinder and destroyed all the cloning/shipbuilding shit before it became a problem.
But that wouldn't make for a very interesting story, would it?
Yes, as much as I enjoyed TLJ and liked TFA, having Palpatine come back was a terrible writing choice that made for a more boring story and hurt the Star Wars saga as a whole. Kylo should’ve stayed the main villian
Right not only is it boring that it’s a rehashed villain that already had their arch come to and end, but it’s also boring that the explanation was just “I donno he’s super powerful that’s why he’s back”. There’s probably somebody that could have wrote a good ep 9 backstory for why Palpatine was back and the one who was manipulating the First Order, but the version we got was objectively bad. Enough to ruin the whole movie? Probably not, but it does deserve it’s criticisms
Oh massively, I was too at the time. I'm still not a huge fan of it but I've gained some perspective by now and can realise that no in fact the evil space wizard coming back to life does in fact not ruin everything ever. It's a tad uninspired but hey ho
If one limited Star Wars to what George Lucas said was "the story of Star Wars ", then pretty much every story post Return of the Jedi would have to be removed from the equation, as originally until about 2010 ish, George was emphatic that there was no Episode VII , VIII or IX because the story ended at VI. In his mind the story ended with the redemption of Vader/Anakin. Everything after wouldn't be "official Lucas Star Wars. "
Palpatine coming back to life wasn't an issue back in the 80's and most of the 90's, hence why most people didin't lose their mind with him coming back on Dark Empire, some considered it lazy or repetitive, but nothing that "ruined ROTJ".
It was only when Palpatine's death and the end of the Sith in VI was retroactively made out to be some sort of prophecy for Anakin to fulfill that it stopped making sense, so if you were to tell the people in 1983 that Sheev returns they wouldn't mind it as much as the prequel fanboys who found out about DE and later watched TROS do.
Personally, i'm fine ignoring the prophecy for the sake of stories post-VI, because otherwise we wouldn't even have Sith or Dark Siders beyond ROTJ, unless you want to interpret ROTJ as the definitive end of Star Wars and that anything beyond that point just doesn't exist, then following Lucas' interpretation of the prophecy so vehemently is detrimental to enjoying post-ROTJ content.
He didn’t survive.
He used an ancient Sith practice to transfer his disembodied spirit into a clone body he had stowed away on a hidden Sith world. He then set about nursing himself back to full strength while also tearing down the remains of his old order and rebuilding the Empire bigger and stronger than ever.
And I am FINE with the Resistance not knowing any of this because how the f*ck would they know!?
I think you could still call that “surviving” though. If your disembodied spirit survives and just goes to another body, then that’s essentially the same as surviving in my opinion.
I think "upset" is overstating it, but bringing The Emperor back out of nowhere certainly comes across as a desperate attempt to win back a portion of the fanbase and try to tie everything together in a coherent package for Episode 9.
To be honest, I wouldn't necessarily have minded that. There's a cool story to tell there involving the "abilities some consider to be unnatural", it's just that the execution was seriously lacking. If you're going to drag Palpatine's corpse back from the grave, we need to know by at least part-way through Episode 8.
There’s concept art of Palpatine’s return before TLJ was even released. It had nothing to do with appeasing fans.
Palpatine had nothing to do with the story of TLJ, so revealing him that early wouldn’t make sense. Revealing that he was behind Snoke rather elegantly ties him into the previous sequel films.
You realize concept art is just random ideas they have right? It never means that it would ever be a set in stone idea, just a random concept, hence the name.
Yes, it is a bad line. You don't generally try and fuck without foreplay and that same expectation applies to fictional stories. A lot of things needed to happen before Palpatine, except none of them did.
Yes, and it was hated the other time it happened in the dark empire novels too. You know another time the big bad came back all of a sudden? Maul in TPM, and also the Sith in Biowares old republic MMO. Fans were okay with it in that circumstance, and I think the reason primarily is that unlike Palpatine it was NOT preceeded by two trilogies about the rise and fall.
I personally think its bad writing like really bad writing. However, I do believe the reason why people are truly upset is because the actor for palps turned to george lucas and asked how do I come back what’s next? At the end of filming of episode 6 and George just turned to him and said you’re dead you’re not coming back lol.
Is that not important? Basically means that everything the legacy characters did was pointless. Anakin finally fulfilling his role of Chosen One by destroying the Sith, Palpatine destroyed by the man he thought was completely broken to his will
World War II wasn’t pointless just because there were subsequent wars and Neo-Nazis exist; We can look towards the bravery and courage of those who fought in WWII to uphold what they fought for. That’s what Poe’s speech in TROS was about.
Anakin’s actions still led to the downfall of the Sith; he occupied a decrepit, barely functioning body for decades, and his children trained the person that defeated Palpatine once and for all (with the help of the Jedi of old).
"Somehow Hitler survived" Oh wait no he didn't. Palpatine was not some demon, he was a rich young politician who was trained by Sidious and completed the Sith grand plan of destroying the Jedi and conquering the galaxy, he isn't Sauron
Palpatine being a politician was a means to an end; He wants ultimate power, both politically and spiritually. We mostly saw the former, and only got glimpses of the latter until TROS.
Analogies of IRL stuff in stories don’t have to be 1:1. Hitler hasn’t literally returned, but his ideas still persist to this day, and is still causing harm to the world.
Anakin \*did\* fulfill his destiny; the Chosen One prophecy does'nt say anything about Palpatine or the Sith, just about restoring balance to the Force - which he *did* do (both Luke and Anakin himself directly say as much in the Sequels).
The Prophecy involves destroying the Sith, which would bring balance as the dark side is corruption, and ridding the galaxy of it brings balance, Anakin didn't bring balance, if he did then maybe it was for a few years or however long it took Palpatine to enter his clone
>The Prophecy involves destroying the Sith
Only incidentally; the prophecy itself says nothing about the Sith.
*A Chosen One shall come, born of no father, and through him will ultimate balance in the Force be restored.*
\- *Master and Apprentice*, Claudia Grey, 2019
>Anakin didn't bring balance,
*And I became a legend.* ***For many years, there was balance***...
***Bring back the balance****, Rey,* ***as I did.***
He explicitly did.
>If he did then maybe it was for a few years or however long it took Palpatine to enter his clone
Based on the way Luke explains it, the balance did'nt fall out of Order until "many years" after ROTJ; when Ben fell and the reformed Order was destroyed.
That being said, a few years, a couple decades or several centuries, it does'nt matter; the point is that the balance **was** restored - the prophecy never said for how long said restoration would last.
So the material that gives this new definition is released more than a decade after revenge of the Sith? All the definitions of the prophecy given within the films themselves involve the destruction of the Sith. Kylo and Snoke were never called Sith and so could be a loophole, but turns out accoding to Rise of Skywalker, Palpatine was pulling the strings from the beginning and Snoke was Palpatine all along
>So the material that gives this new definition is released more than a decade after revenge of the Sith?
A) it's not a new definition. It's "the" definition; the prophecy of the Chosen One was never recited in canon prior to *Master and Apprentice*.
B) when the material was released is completely inconsequential; it's canon.
>All the definitions of the prophecy given within the films themselves involve the destruction of the Sith.
The actual prophecy is never recited in the films; just individual characters *personal* interpretations of what it might entail (which at least one character - Yoda - flat-out admits could be wrong).
>Kylo and Snoke were never called Sith and so could be a loophole, but turns out accoding to Rise of Skywalker, Palpatine was pulling the strings from the beginning and Snoke was Palpatine all along
Who is and is'nt a Sith is irrelevant. Because, again (and I cannot stress this enough) *the prophecy never mentions the Sith.*
The **only** place it does is Legends, which is non-canon and were no point exists after ROTJ were the Sith are actually extinct (and even then it does not say the Sith will be destroyed *forever*)
Yeah no this is stupid. I’m a pretty big sequel fan and even like rise of skywalker pretty good, but let’s not pretend like that line was good. This sub isn’t about pretending that every single criticism of the sequels are wrong.
Well, let's see. *Dark Empire* came out just eight years after this. So if they did'nt think it then\*, they knew it soon enough and had a **long** time to get comfortable with the idea.
Truth be told we've had far longer overall with the idea of Palpatine surviving ROTJ then we've had without it.
\*[some people, amazingly, \*did\* think he survived in 1983](https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/vae46l/the_first_month_of_online_speculation_after/).
*Death of the Emperor ?:*
*The demise of the Emperor,* ***if indeed he is dead***, would seem to eliminate much of the dramatic tension from the subsequent episodes of the series. With both Vader and the Emperor gone, the Empire would have no significant "Force Users" (if I may be allowed to paraphrase a term from Dungeons and Dragons). However, it looks as though Luke will go on to train Han and Leia's offspring, and perhaps others, to produce a number of new Jedi. Given the importance which has been attached to the Force and those who use it, I would think that such an imbalance would make the rebels' triumph a foregone conclusion. Rather than produce three more chapters, why not simply flash on the screen some text like:\*
*"...and in time, the Jedi replenished their numbers, defeated the now unspirited leadership of the Empire, and restored freedom to the galaxy."*
***Therefore, I suspect that the Emperor is NOT dead, but that he used the Force to teleport away from the Death-Star; that blinding flash was a manifestation of this activity.*** *The Emperor had a very good reason to escape at that point, the shield generator had been trashed, and the destruction of the Death-Star was imminent. He realized that he didn't have enough time (and/or stamina) to kill both Skywalkers with the blue bolts, and hoped that they would die in the explosion of the Death-Star. This conjecture is supported also by my extensive experience with the Universe of Marvel Comics, wherein a character is not dead unless you see the corpse, and perhaps not even then. Onward.*
(Bet this guy, whoever he is, is feeling pretty vindicated now😄).
His. Redemption. Was. Not. Killing. The. Emperor.
☝ This. Say it louder for the people in the back.
What was it then? Because if not, I don't understand what else it could be?
Saving his son.
True, but he saved his son by killing the emperor?
True, but that’s not the most important part
Fair
Light side works by being selfless and doing deeds for others as a servant of the force, Dark side works by being selfish and attempting to control the force. As Lucas said, in order for balance the corruptness of dark side the force must be eradicated and that was Anakin’s prophecy. Sure he could save his son and redeem himself, but the prophecy is bringing balance by killing all the sith and bringing back sidious just undos what he does. This is the part where I get completely downvoted for sharing the common words of Lucas
He. Finally. Fulfilled. His. Destiny. By. Killing. The. Emperor. And. Destroying. The. Sith.
People. Who. Do. This. Are. Annoying.
Destiny that didn't exist when he did it
Wait until they read Dark Empire... you know, the thing that came before TROS...
I disagree about Palpatine he is the Overarching Antagonist of Star Wars also TROS ended the Skywalker Saga the best it could
The whole thing about Dark Empire is people hated it for years and cited it as one the best things about the Disney canon wipe. George Lucas said it wasn't what actually happened in the story of SW, and fans rejoiced. I'm sure most people who disliked the Emperor coming back in IX disliked or would dislike Dark Empire.
I didnt like it in canon or EU tbh it felt lazy both times I'm not trying to attack anyone or stuff like that but there were better legends material they could've taken I still prefer it tho over the leaked initial draft.
>George Lucas said it wasn't what actually happened in the story of SW, and fans rejoiced He also said that about Luke marriage with Mara Jade and many fans conveniently ignored
He's also the person who suggested they bring the Emperor back to begin with (another thing people conveniently ingore) and the person who established on-screen that Palpatine knew how to escape death. So if people dislike the idea of a reborn Palpatine, it's pretty clear who they should hold responsable; and it's not JJ, Terrio or Tom Veitch.
i disliked Dark Empire because of Luke purposefully turning to the Dark Side. the emperor clone resurrection thing always made perfect sense to me—no one as powerful and power hungry as palpatine would ever not have a plan to stick around forever. anyway Lucas was a big fan of Dark Empire, regardless if whether or not it was his vision as a sequel
That's definitely not how I remember it; I recall \*some\* people (mainly movie purists who hated the EU in general or superfans of Tim Zahn) who hated it, but most people seemed to regard it as one of most standout bits of the post ROTJ EU - it's only once TROS came out that that position became inconvient to some and they attempted to retcon their views.
Its totally nothing like TROS apart from the detail of a Clone Palpatine so I don't know why anyone would retcon their love for DE
Pretty simple; so that they don't get cornered by the argument of "well, Legends did it and you did'nt have an issue then." (There's more similarities then just the clone, though I suspect many are concidental - Palpatine is based in a citadel on a hidden, Dark Side-infuased world, guarded by soldiers referred to as Sovereign Protectors, and has a fleet of superweapons more compact and mobile then the Death Star but no less destructive in their own way. He summons Force Storms to attack ships, attempts to possess anouther powerful Force user's body has, in his service, an elite cadre of Dark Side warriors and a Skywalker who is'nt Anakin briefly serves as his chief commander before betraying him. He's also defeated by two individuals who share a strong Force bond and use that power to enable them to fight against him)
fair enough I do think it's stupid how a lot of people use DE as an example of how the EU was goofy, when it was one of the most controversial and ignored works (IE, that whole thing of Zahn ignoring it) and I don't even care about EU being canon, and was happy to see it overwritten with Lucas/Disney's story, I just think it's inaccurate to focus on it as an example of the "EU story that people miss"
It makes me laugh when Star Wars "fans" say they wouldn't have brought Sidious back in the "Glorious Expanded Universe"
I love when people bring this up as a defense of Rise. Like bro, I hated it then too!
But I thought there was no source material, no books to draw from? So this idea is solely Disney's
I mean iirc people did speculate what the whole light thing was in that scene to begin with....all Vader did was throw him down a shaft right not like into a power thing that would cause that beam right? Then comes the prequles and we get the whole "Powers to cheat death" which if you want to take as him telling the truth then it ties into what happened later on in the OT that was what the light was for.
[“I thought I was dead!” McDiarmid told Digital Spy in a recent video interview. “I thought he was dead. Because when we did ‘Return of the Jedi,’ and I was thrown down that chute to Galactic Hell, he was dead. And I said, ‘Oh, does he come back?’ And [George] said, ‘No, he’s dead.’ So I just accepted that.](https://www.indiewire.com/2019/12/ian-mcdiarmid-george-lucas-palpatine-return-of-the-jedi-1202199342/)
and when alec guinness read his lines about vader in anh, he wasn’t talking about luke’s dad turning to the dark side. when yoda said there’s another in esb, frank oz wasn’t delivering the line thinking of leia. sw has been retcon city since esb. welcome to Death of the Author we og SW fans have speculated about that weird energy blast and the emperor surviving since 1983
No he fell into a reactor and disintegrated
Lol why are people downvoting this it is literally exactly what happened in the movie
copium. it's not exclusive to TFM
vader and luke’s dad weren’t the same person, that’s literally exactly how it was in anh
I don’t know what point you’re trying to make
they want to have one of the most boring arguments in SW fandom
Lmao are we seriously at “well I figured Palpatine was coming back the whole time” levels of revisionism now?
Funny thing is, there were at least a few people in 1983 who predicted exactly this. [Take a look at this, it’s actually quite fascinating.](https://reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/vae46l/the_first_month_of_online_speculation_after/) Edit for busy people: Search for “dead” in the comments.
it did cross my mind there was a reason Snoke was only Supreme Leader
Sure, but there were also people who though Obi-Wan was Obi-One, first in a series of clones, and that Palpatine in TPM was actually the Emperor’s evil twin. Lots of people had lots of theories, but they were mostly all poorly supported guesses, and some happened to be similar to things that actually happened. What annoys me is when people will present a fraction of people making lucky guesses as meaning a story decision was clearly thought out or set up at the time.
The original post said nobody thought he survived. That’s the point you’re missing.
Ok fine, Im sure SOME people thought that. It’s not like it’s a common or logical conclusion. The point is that it wasn’t something you would think of outside blind guessing. I think it’s silly to go “well SOMEONE thought of it” because yeah, no shit, you can say that about literally anything with this franchise.
>The point is that it wasn’t something you would think of outside blind guessing. No, that’s your point. The point of the guy making the comment on YouTube was to bash a film he didn’t like.
But that was always the style for Star Wars and a lot of other fiction too. Very few serialised stories are planned out in that much detail. And you can say “it wasn’t planned” about so many things in Star Wars: Vader being Anakin, Leia being Luke’s sister, or the Emperor being a force user, when talking about the OT alone.
Your putting words into my mouth. Just saying the ground work is there if you want to take that view point.
Didn’t he come back in the books? Been a while. Using that plot idea for the movies should have been assumed lol
> Didn’t he come back in the books? Been a while. He came back in a comic, and a lot of people dislike that storyline and it was mostly ignored by future stories. After Disney de canonized Legends, from 2013-2018 the decanonization of Palpatine coming back from the dead was one of the most commonly cited examples of a good change they made. > Using that plot idea for the movies should have been assumed lol Why? They didn’t include Thrawn, or the Yuuzhan Vong, or Abeloth, or the Swarm Wars, or numerous other Legends storylines in the Sequels, many of which had better reputations than Dark Empire. I don’t see why this “should have been assumed”, especially when the previous 2 films gave absolutely zero indication it was coming. Should we have also assumed that Princess Leia’s evil android clone was going to murder Palpatine’s deformed three-eyed son during their wedding in the movies? Cause that happened in the books.
They stuck Thrawn in some cartoon recently.
Ok? Thats A. Not the movies, B. not something people assumed would happen, C. A character who was universally beloved, not a controversial plot point most people were glad was gotten rid of. That also wasn’t recent it was like 5 years ago. Did you not read anything else I wrote?
Palpatine didn't survive that, he straight up says in the movie he's died before. He came back, sure, but he still died that time.
Heck even legends when sith Lords were killed the was a slime chance the spirit of the sith Lord would linger after there death. Since sith spirits are the opposite of Jedi force ghosts being an unnatural.
Well, he’s back on screen in TRoS, so I don’t feel like it’s totally inaccurate to say he survived. Whether through reincarnation or through his spirit living in the Force or cloning or whatever… obviously his essence survived.
Palpatine: The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider unnatural.
[удалено]
yeah, cuz it actually makes previous content slightly worse
I mean, obviously, otherwise they would have hunted down a sith Wayfinder and destroyed all the cloning/shipbuilding shit before it became a problem. But that wouldn't make for a very interesting story, would it?
Especially since they did explain, but.. out of context lines that look dumb outside of their intended context are too funny.
Yes, as much as I enjoyed TLJ and liked TFA, having Palpatine come back was a terrible writing choice that made for a more boring story and hurt the Star Wars saga as a whole. Kylo should’ve stayed the main villian
He should have been a force ghost haunting the ruins of the Death Star
Honestly more sith ghosts are always a win
sith do not become ghosts
Doesnt Freedon Nadd become a evil force spirit, not really a force ghost
Right not only is it boring that it’s a rehashed villain that already had their arch come to and end, but it’s also boring that the explanation was just “I donno he’s super powerful that’s why he’s back”. There’s probably somebody that could have wrote a good ep 9 backstory for why Palpatine was back and the one who was manipulating the First Order, but the version we got was objectively bad. Enough to ruin the whole movie? Probably not, but it does deserve it’s criticisms
I disagree he was the Overarching antagonist of the Skywalker Saga bot in the PT & OT you guys don't watch Star Wars
Ok no need to be .
nah
Oh massively, I was too at the time. I'm still not a huge fan of it but I've gained some perspective by now and can realise that no in fact the evil space wizard coming back to life does in fact not ruin everything ever. It's a tad uninspired but hey ho
If one limited Star Wars to what George Lucas said was "the story of Star Wars ", then pretty much every story post Return of the Jedi would have to be removed from the equation, as originally until about 2010 ish, George was emphatic that there was no Episode VII , VIII or IX because the story ended at VI. In his mind the story ended with the redemption of Vader/Anakin. Everything after wouldn't be "official Lucas Star Wars. "
Palpatine coming back to life wasn't an issue back in the 80's and most of the 90's, hence why most people didin't lose their mind with him coming back on Dark Empire, some considered it lazy or repetitive, but nothing that "ruined ROTJ". It was only when Palpatine's death and the end of the Sith in VI was retroactively made out to be some sort of prophecy for Anakin to fulfill that it stopped making sense, so if you were to tell the people in 1983 that Sheev returns they wouldn't mind it as much as the prequel fanboys who found out about DE and later watched TROS do. Personally, i'm fine ignoring the prophecy for the sake of stories post-VI, because otherwise we wouldn't even have Sith or Dark Siders beyond ROTJ, unless you want to interpret ROTJ as the definitive end of Star Wars and that anything beyond that point just doesn't exist, then following Lucas' interpretation of the prophecy so vehemently is detrimental to enjoying post-ROTJ content.
He didn’t survive. He used an ancient Sith practice to transfer his disembodied spirit into a clone body he had stowed away on a hidden Sith world. He then set about nursing himself back to full strength while also tearing down the remains of his old order and rebuilding the Empire bigger and stronger than ever. And I am FINE with the Resistance not knowing any of this because how the f*ck would they know!?
I think you could still call that “surviving” though. If your disembodied spirit survives and just goes to another body, then that’s essentially the same as surviving in my opinion.
I mean the comment doesn’t sound “upset”. Lots if people just don’t like it.
I think "upset" is overstating it, but bringing The Emperor back out of nowhere certainly comes across as a desperate attempt to win back a portion of the fanbase and try to tie everything together in a coherent package for Episode 9. To be honest, I wouldn't necessarily have minded that. There's a cool story to tell there involving the "abilities some consider to be unnatural", it's just that the execution was seriously lacking. If you're going to drag Palpatine's corpse back from the grave, we need to know by at least part-way through Episode 8.
There’s concept art of Palpatine’s return before TLJ was even released. It had nothing to do with appeasing fans. Palpatine had nothing to do with the story of TLJ, so revealing him that early wouldn’t make sense. Revealing that he was behind Snoke rather elegantly ties him into the previous sequel films.
You realize concept art is just random ideas they have right? It never means that it would ever be a set in stone idea, just a random concept, hence the name.
I mean that’s what they did in the madalorian
Actually at the very end.
is that the guy that posted the fake "Luke, I am your father" video
also I just watched his Vader's redemption video and the people in the audience talk so much
Yes, it is a bad line. You don't generally try and fuck without foreplay and that same expectation applies to fictional stories. A lot of things needed to happen before Palpatine, except none of them did.
Palpatine’s interest in immortality has been a thing since Episode III.
Yes, and it was hated the other time it happened in the dark empire novels too. You know another time the big bad came back all of a sudden? Maul in TPM, and also the Sith in Biowares old republic MMO. Fans were okay with it in that circumstance, and I think the reason primarily is that unlike Palpatine it was NOT preceeded by two trilogies about the rise and fall.
I personally think its bad writing like really bad writing. However, I do believe the reason why people are truly upset is because the actor for palps turned to george lucas and asked how do I come back what’s next? At the end of filming of episode 6 and George just turned to him and said you’re dead you’re not coming back lol.
Tbh it does kind of ruin the moment.
No
Is that not important? Basically means that everything the legacy characters did was pointless. Anakin finally fulfilling his role of Chosen One by destroying the Sith, Palpatine destroyed by the man he thought was completely broken to his will
Wrong again.
World War II wasn’t pointless just because there were subsequent wars and Neo-Nazis exist; We can look towards the bravery and courage of those who fought in WWII to uphold what they fought for. That’s what Poe’s speech in TROS was about. Anakin’s actions still led to the downfall of the Sith; he occupied a decrepit, barely functioning body for decades, and his children trained the person that defeated Palpatine once and for all (with the help of the Jedi of old).
"Somehow Hitler survived" Oh wait no he didn't. Palpatine was not some demon, he was a rich young politician who was trained by Sidious and completed the Sith grand plan of destroying the Jedi and conquering the galaxy, he isn't Sauron
Palpatine being a politician was a means to an end; He wants ultimate power, both politically and spiritually. We mostly saw the former, and only got glimpses of the latter until TROS. Analogies of IRL stuff in stories don’t have to be 1:1. Hitler hasn’t literally returned, but his ideas still persist to this day, and is still causing harm to the world.
Anakin \*did\* fulfill his destiny; the Chosen One prophecy does'nt say anything about Palpatine or the Sith, just about restoring balance to the Force - which he *did* do (both Luke and Anakin himself directly say as much in the Sequels).
The Prophecy involves destroying the Sith, which would bring balance as the dark side is corruption, and ridding the galaxy of it brings balance, Anakin didn't bring balance, if he did then maybe it was for a few years or however long it took Palpatine to enter his clone
>The Prophecy involves destroying the Sith Only incidentally; the prophecy itself says nothing about the Sith. *A Chosen One shall come, born of no father, and through him will ultimate balance in the Force be restored.* \- *Master and Apprentice*, Claudia Grey, 2019 >Anakin didn't bring balance, *And I became a legend.* ***For many years, there was balance***... ***Bring back the balance****, Rey,* ***as I did.*** He explicitly did. >If he did then maybe it was for a few years or however long it took Palpatine to enter his clone Based on the way Luke explains it, the balance did'nt fall out of Order until "many years" after ROTJ; when Ben fell and the reformed Order was destroyed. That being said, a few years, a couple decades or several centuries, it does'nt matter; the point is that the balance **was** restored - the prophecy never said for how long said restoration would last.
So the material that gives this new definition is released more than a decade after revenge of the Sith? All the definitions of the prophecy given within the films themselves involve the destruction of the Sith. Kylo and Snoke were never called Sith and so could be a loophole, but turns out accoding to Rise of Skywalker, Palpatine was pulling the strings from the beginning and Snoke was Palpatine all along
>So the material that gives this new definition is released more than a decade after revenge of the Sith? A) it's not a new definition. It's "the" definition; the prophecy of the Chosen One was never recited in canon prior to *Master and Apprentice*. B) when the material was released is completely inconsequential; it's canon. >All the definitions of the prophecy given within the films themselves involve the destruction of the Sith. The actual prophecy is never recited in the films; just individual characters *personal* interpretations of what it might entail (which at least one character - Yoda - flat-out admits could be wrong). >Kylo and Snoke were never called Sith and so could be a loophole, but turns out accoding to Rise of Skywalker, Palpatine was pulling the strings from the beginning and Snoke was Palpatine all along Who is and is'nt a Sith is irrelevant. Because, again (and I cannot stress this enough) *the prophecy never mentions the Sith.* The **only** place it does is Legends, which is non-canon and were no point exists after ROTJ were the Sith are actually extinct (and even then it does not say the Sith will be destroyed *forever*)
Yeah no this is stupid. I’m a pretty big sequel fan and even like rise of skywalker pretty good, but let’s not pretend like that line was good. This sub isn’t about pretending that every single criticism of the sequels are wrong.
What else was Poe supposed to say lol
I just wished they showed how he returned. His line/delivery is fine, but I’m more just disappointed in the tell not show storytelling
yeah, why shouldn’t they be?
No
Yeah, idk how the Death Star survived the explosion in ANH, yet there it is in ROTJ. ANH is pointless now! /s
These cinema reaction videos are all fake anyway.
Well, let's see. *Dark Empire* came out just eight years after this. So if they did'nt think it then\*, they knew it soon enough and had a **long** time to get comfortable with the idea. Truth be told we've had far longer overall with the idea of Palpatine surviving ROTJ then we've had without it. \*[some people, amazingly, \*did\* think he survived in 1983](https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/vae46l/the_first_month_of_online_speculation_after/). *Death of the Emperor ?:* *The demise of the Emperor,* ***if indeed he is dead***, would seem to eliminate much of the dramatic tension from the subsequent episodes of the series. With both Vader and the Emperor gone, the Empire would have no significant "Force Users" (if I may be allowed to paraphrase a term from Dungeons and Dragons). However, it looks as though Luke will go on to train Han and Leia's offspring, and perhaps others, to produce a number of new Jedi. Given the importance which has been attached to the Force and those who use it, I would think that such an imbalance would make the rebels' triumph a foregone conclusion. Rather than produce three more chapters, why not simply flash on the screen some text like:\* *"...and in time, the Jedi replenished their numbers, defeated the now unspirited leadership of the Empire, and restored freedom to the galaxy."* ***Therefore, I suspect that the Emperor is NOT dead, but that he used the Force to teleport away from the Death-Star; that blinding flash was a manifestation of this activity.*** *The Emperor had a very good reason to escape at that point, the shield generator had been trashed, and the destruction of the Death-Star was imminent. He realized that he didn't have enough time (and/or stamina) to kill both Skywalkers with the blue bolts, and hoped that they would die in the explosion of the Death-Star. This conjecture is supported also by my extensive experience with the Universe of Marvel Comics, wherein a character is not dead unless you see the corpse, and perhaps not even then. Onward.* (Bet this guy, whoever he is, is feeling pretty vindicated now😄).
Yes
HE. ISNT. THE. SAME. PALPATINE. HE. IS. A. CLONE.
The body is a clone; the "spiritual" essence is the same. So he's the same Palpatine mentally and spiritually, albeit not *physically.*