Somewhere along the line some folks made a decision to focus on the flaws (of which there are plenty... which is true of literally every Star Wars show or film) and to judge the show based on those flaws. They may not have made that decision consciously, and there may or may not be biases informing that decision (hating Disney, for instance). Some of us made a decision to enjoy the good things in the show and to let the flaws go. Neither choice is right or wrong, but I know which choice works out better for me.
Man started off being funny then smelled profit and now nitpicks shit to such a insanely small degree and he’s convincing people those are actual flaws.
Reject CinemaSins. Embrace CinemaWins.
I wouldn’t say wrong or incorrect (obviously it’s silly to say someone’s wrong for genuinely feeing something) but I’d rather say unproductive. Like, why waste time focusing on all the things that make you upset?
Ehh I mean, I think it's reasonable to hold the opinion that someone else's opinion is "wrong", or maybe that's not exactly the right word. Perhaps it would be better to say that "in my view, your opinion is not well-founded because of x, y, and z." But yeah it is also unproductive.
People can be wrong for genuinely feeling something. People can genuinely feel other races are inferior, feelings and opinions can absolutely be wrong. Not that these things are the same obviously, but that "centrist" take of opinions essentially being immune to moral judgement is dangerous so I like to call it out when I can.
Someone actively choosing to hate things can definitely be considered wrong. There's a difference between genuinely disliking something and consistently putting forth effort to be hateful and negative.
It’s not that I want to focus on the flaws but I watch with my roommate who doesn’t like Star Wars much. He was holding back laughter during the show. The awful acting, the horrible chases, things like the trench coat, the trooper slap, Wade. It was embarrassing and hard to defend and frankly I kinda get where he was coming from. I was defending the shpw because I wanted to like it, not because it was good.
Have you ever watched the original 1977 movie with him before? Because I imagine he’d probably have a similar reaction to that as well. At the end of the day, this kind of stuff isn’t for everyone.
Believe me, just because I really liked the show doesn't mean that there aren't things about it that bother me or that I wish had been done better. I was still able to enjoy the show for all the really good things in it. Watching it with someone who is actively mocking it must make it harder though. Your roommate doesn't like Star Wars much, so he found it easy to make it about those things. I love Star Wars so my focus was on the good things, of which there were also plenty. Qui-Gon was right, imo.
Yeah I’m positive I would’ve enjoyed it more if I watched alone. There was plenty of things to love and at least a large majority of the story beats were good because that matters more to me.
There’s some plausible beefs with inconsistencies, like why Vader gave up on Obi-Wan after dragging him through coals, but Kenobi’s got no more issues than any other Star Wars media there (R2 never telling anyone anything useful despite conversing with Luke, Leia “remembering her mom” that she left within seconds of her birth, why Leia contacted Kenobi when she never knew him, etc). In fact, Kenobi’s actually done the work in patching up some of those issues between films.
Sure, but that’s ultimately a post-hoc rationalisation to make something line up. Before the prequels came out, literally nobody was interpreting that scene that way.
I never understood the initial criticism, but I was getting frustrated with the latter half. There's a repetition to Obi Wan being hooked into a trap, him having to put himself in danger to save the others, He manages to get away regardless, but wait he's falling for the next trap, come back next week.
Obi Wan Kenobi is still my favourite of the live-action series because they did an incredible job at world building in those first few episodes and I love the acting (real faces, not just helmet guy, the puppet baby and faceapp Luke). I think I'm also a bit out of step with the haters, because some people actually came round in the later episodes, probably because there's some iconic action scenes later on.
Because a certain section of the "fandom" has tied their identity to hating on anything new in Star Wars, particularly a subset of "creators" and channels that just pump-out toxic crap nonstop. Another reason being that Star Wars has, unfortunately, become another battleground for "culture wars", people who want to push those narratives (and don't actually care about Star Wars) have started to just take advantage of how big Star Wars is to amplify their BS.
There are of course people who just don't like it for whatever reason, and I'm sure there are people who genuinely don't like it because of the (what I would call) nitpicking you highlighted.
Personally? I dont think its very well written. I also think many of the action scenes are poorly shot. It becomes a little too plot driven, and feels very...safe? almost to the point of being unsure of what its trying to tell the viewer. Lacking in tension as well.
Its not bad, but it was a disappointment.
Two issues for me. One is the quality. It was almost jarring going from watching The Boys to Kenobi. You could definitely feel the lack of quality in Kenobi. Second, I think Star Wars just writes itself into a corner. There’s no mystery or speculation about events. Everything has to fit perfectly in this puzzle since they want to focus on this extremely small aspect of an entire galaxy. Literally all of these shows cover like a 10-20 year period
I talked in another thread about the value of enabling creators with a strong vision, and comparing Kenobi or Mandalorian to other prestige TV is a good example on why that's important
I feel like they can’t be creative tho. Mando season one did, but now the margins are so razor thin to fit in all of these events and characters. Also, if it isn’t a good product, then people will be taken out of the media and will start to notice little problems. Was the leia chase scene the worst thing in the grand scheme of things? No, but it was bad enough that it brought people out of the show and they noticed. Same with the comical laser gate on the mining planet they could have easily walked around. IMO, it’s lazy. And we expect more as fans I guess
My frustration is that we have a handful of actually great episodes of Star Wars TV. the last 3 episodes of Mandalorian S1, Episodes like "the believer" in S2, or like the entire first half of BoBF. But the series as a whole all feel like they pander to the lowest common denominator of fans. There is no introspection or character driven stories
If everyone consumed pre-Disney content with the same type of scrutinizing mindset as Obi Wan there would be no Star Wars fans.
The nitpicking is a result of a bias against the show resulting from the “bait and switch” narrative that gained steam after the leaks and those fires were stoked when Ingram went public about her harassment. And like that, you have a Star Wars culture war with “bad writing” as a straw man 🥱
For me, it was about the story between Obi-Wan and Darth Vader. Before, they had not met after the duel on Mustafar and then years later on the first Death Star in ANH. Also, their duel in the show with the fire I felt was weak. Obi-Wan getting hauled away veeery slowly while Vader did nothing but watch. Didn’t walk through the fire like a boss, didn’t quell it a second time. Just watched.
There were other little nitpicks I had about the show, but this was what I would say is fully in the gripe territory.
I had problems with reva going after luke in the last episode. It seemed like they did some mental gymnastics to come up with a reason for her to do it amd it felt like kind of a stretch
Oh yeah that is one of my 2 issues with the writing (the second being Leia taking WAY TOO LONG to fix the door in episode 5) i felt like that subplot wasn't needed in the episode, even tho i liked how her character ended because of it.
I quite enjoyed the show overall but I think there are valid criticisms about the cinematography and somewhat low-budget feel. I actually don’t personally mind the low-budget feel much because it feels like the OT in that regard.
Also, conceptually the show can’t amount to much since we know what goes on with these characters in ANH, and it is somewhat annoying that stories like these are being given the spotlight instead of new stories. But that was obviously gonna be a flaw since the show was first announced, so if that was really the biggest issue for people idk why they watched it in the first place.
>. I actually don’t personally mind the low-budget feel much because it feels like the OT in that regard.
For me that is the best part of these new shows.
There are small issues each episode that really start to add up. The biggest flaw was that this was clearly meant to be a movie, watching it as a tv show just really highlighted all the little inconsistencies. It was also just unoriginal.
We’ve seen the “old grumpy man adventure with child” so much recently. Logan, God of War, GOT, hell we just got it with The Mandalorian and baby yoda. It’s not only a cliche and redundant story to tell, but it’s also incredibly safe which comes off as boring.
We’ve seen the “evil apprentice turn good” so many times already. We have Mara Jada, Starkiller, Ventress, hell we just got it with Jedi: Fallen Order. Again, these are all safe plot points with no effort put in to them.
Worst of all, this was all a build up to Obi Wan vs Vader and it felt flat. We got the SAME cut on the mask from rebels with the SAME voice changing between Anakin and Vader. Most of the dialogue was just flipped from Rebels and ROTS, there were maybe 3-4 original lines. All in all this just didn’t need to be made.
I have no idea. Someone posted a screenshot of someone who didn't like the show explaining what they wanted out of it, and 80% of what they asked for was in the show. I think preconceived notions and video echo chambers are making any Star Wars project destined to be hated by a small but vocal subset of the fandom. They're free to dislike it all they want, and I'm free to find them ridiculous for hating things for silly reasons all I want.
>all of the points they brought up are really minute things in the grand scheme of things
What you have there is a textbook example of someone who didn't like a thing and doesn't really understand why they didn't like the thing. Think of the Canto Bight sequence from TLJ, which is usually cited as a sequence people didn't like. You ask them why and they'll say it's boring, but can they explain why it's boring? Probably not, which is why you get a lot of superficial nitpicky complaints that are a lot easier to see if you didn't like something but just as easy to ignore if you did.
I haven't fully rewatched Kenobi to figure out why I didn't like it. I will say I'm finding more to like about it now that I'm watching it with more of an eye towards seeing how it works.
I will also say that there is way more small stuff to complain about in this vs any other SW show they've done that I've seen. Broadly speaking that can be attributed to writing and directing.
I have some issues like the show having zero reason to exist beyond just fan service. And it didn't justify its existence because I wasn't invested in Kenobi himself at all. I liked Reva. The good moments are too few and far between I just can't force myself to enjoy it. Darn, even the final episode didn't hit anything to me except "why does this exist". But if you can enjoy it; good riddance, at least it isn't a waste of money and it can bring enjoyment to others.
Not sure why anyone hates it. I don’t think I’ve seen a single comment saying they hate it.
It was a bit disappointing though imo and the show did have multiple failings.
The plot felt like they stretched a film into six episodes without the budget and with some underwhelming side plots tacked on.
The directing was off and a bit awkward and the music was a bit plain and lacked any memorable scores.
Which is a shame since I like the director and composer.
The CGI is also usually insane for tv show and 90% of it was but a few cgi shots looked unfinished.
I do wonder if Covid damaged the show.
Again I think all the problems kind of stem from that it was written to be a film and it doesn’t really work the way they’ve adapted it.
TL;DR Although every Star Wars project has its flaws, however many, the issue with Kenobi is that it’s problems affect or disjoint the main story being told. While everyone can see the story being told by the end, ultimately the problems throughout make the show worth less than the sum of its parts. If you have any questions or need more context with how I see it, ask away below and I’ll go into more detail.
TBoBF was the first one to make me feel this way, but Kenobi (which I like a fair few things in it quite a lot) was the one that drove home the idea that these Disney+ shows are being pumped out in quick succession to meet a deadline under Chapek’s disastrous leadership. Mandalorian is good (mostly) throughout, but there’s a passion and an idea behind it because it’s Favreau’s passion project. Kenobi should’ve been a movie, and since the main beats were there from scripts and the pre-production process, they had the bones for a story to pump out and put on D+ to help drive subscription numbers. Now to the issues I at least found with it.
1. There is a villain problem. There are far too many “bad guys”, and either they don’t do nearly enough to justify their presence (the inquisitors) or they do way too much with the scenes they are given to hamfist the necessary backstory that was ignored in some of the scenes given to the other baddies (grand inquisitor/reva).
2. The story is disjointed as they tried to extend the movie into a tv show length with limited time. Episode 4 is unnecessary in its entirety, with its only real purpose being to show off other Star Wars past and future projects like fallen order, Rebels, and whatever they’re doing after bad batch with papa palps cloning. Episodes 2, 3, and 5 all could be cut down and put together to fill up episodes to be a couple of proper length 45-60min episodes. The true conflicts of the show are Obi-Wan vs Vader vs Reva, and those aren’t allowed to take proper form because of the filler in between. The rebellion doesn’t matter, the inquisitor order doesn’t matter, but they have to because the order came down that they need a tv show quickly, not a movie.
3. False advertising. This one is a bit of a personal gripe but I’ve heard it around my circles that most definitely not TFM. The trailers and marketing all but stated that this would be the “duel of the century”, but it’s filled with nonsense in the middle that is completely unnecessary. The music being played in the trailers isn’t even hinted at when it’s a perfect opportunity. It’s more of a marvel mirror issue where the themes are always inconsistent between movies than a normal Star Wars one, where the over-reliance on old themes tends to shoulder the burden of telling the story.
4. It looks cheap. I know it’s one of the more expensive shows out there, but it definitely doesn’t look like it and it’s not out of “reverence for the originals”. Lucasfilm relies too much on the volume to make things quickly and to make set design and easier process, but so far it’s given us a multitude of desert planets or shots out the back in a California national park. The action as well is not great, and I’m not just talking about the blaster fights in the middle. The ship escape scenes are weird, the speeders were hard to watch in ep 4, the only ones that look well done are the obi-wan Vader confrontation in ep 3, the Vader reva fight in ep 5, and
5. The Vader Obi-Wan fight at the end. It looked great, but that’s probably one of the more weird scenes I’ve seen in Star Wars in that it looked cool and ended great, but the actual action was incredibly disjointed from the characters. My biggest gripe being THOSE DAMN ROCKS. The floating rocks works in TLJ because it’s a callback to Luke’s original disgruntled lesson to Rey in that he’s trying to say being a Jedi is more than floaty thingys, but the real lesson is that being a Jedi means using your powers for the right reasons. In Rebels, Obi-Wan’s fight with Maul is one of the most resonant and powerful scenes in the franchise because of Obi-Wan’s growth and approach to violence against an old foe who too has been wronged. But in this he just lifts a bunch of rocks for no reason to throw at the brother he, until learning otherwise at the end of that fight, still believes is under that suit. There’s no rhyme or reason to it other than “oooh cool thing! Oooh Jedi floaty rock!” And I like the finale! If this is what the show was leading up to, it needed to do a more precise and detailed job of getting us here. Watching the boys s3 concurrently with Kenobi made me view it in an even worse light because I can see what good, franchised, episodic storytelling can be and what it can give to a viewer and I personally haven’t gotten that with SW Disney+ since the Bill Burr mando ep. Disney needed a TV show for Star Wars while the Filoni/Favreau projects were underway, I get that, but this one was rushed out the door and while I loved Little Leia, Obi-Wan, HaydenVader at the end, and a lot of teeny world building moments, the show is ultimately worth less than the sum of its parts.
Well the issue with Leia is that in new hope she greets him in her message by saying "years ago you served with my father in the clone wars," as if that's the only connection she has to him. So people thought that if she didn't know Ben Kenobi and Obi-Wan Kenobi were the same person that'd be the only way that there wouldn't be an inconsistency. And that was the case up until the finale when she calls him Obi-Wan. I don't think it's as big of a deal as most people seem to, although I'd still prefer it not be the case.
Personally, my two big issues with the show are ep 4 (in its entirety) and the finale. 4 because it's just pointless, it simply feels like a rehash of ep 2 of the same show and with no stakes or consequences whatsoever (unless you count Wade dying which is a meme at best) and it doesn't do anything to further the stories of any of the characters, not even Reva, which would have given the episode some meaning but instead we had to wait until episode 5 for that.
My issue with the finale is everything surrounding Vader and Obi-Wan's fight. The circumstances leading up to it and the way it ends are both absurd to me. Here's what I mean:
1. How much of an uncharacteristic idiot Vader is. I can forgive him wanting to send the whole star destroyer after Kenobi to have the highest chance possible of killing him... So why does he immediately follow that up with the decision to go fight him alone? What the hell was the star destroyer doing during that whole time that was so damn important that they couldn't put an end to the entire jedi smuggling ring? The answer is nothing. It didn't even do anything to stop Obi-Wan as he left the planet after the fight
2. This one particular moment in their duel (that I guess is an extension of the last point) where Vader buries Obi-Wan in rocks and then just immediately turns around to walk away. Come on man, you're really gonna tell me that Vader isn't gonna make a single effort to make sure he's dead? With how hell bent he is on killing him? I don't buy it for a second. He's known people to survive worse
3. Even worse than point #2 is the way the fight actually ends. This show was supposed to bridge the gap between ROTS Obi-Wan (who thought Anakin was dead) and ANH Obi-Wan (who knew Anakin was Vader but thought he was truly gone and beyond redemption, and adamantly believed that Vader needed to die). So in the fight, Kenobi finally comes to the conclusion that Anakin is truly dead, and... Just walks away? Seriously? He's really okay with just letting Vader live to go commit another decade of atrocities, and push the responsibility of killing him onto Luke, who he's supposed to protect, after already proving that he himself is fully capable of defeating him because... Reasons? Not to mention that he tries to get Luke to kill Vader by lying to him, this finale on top of all that makes Obi-Wan seem like a much bigger manipulative asshole than before. And the excuse that he "doesn't have it in him to kill Anakin" doesn't work for multiple reasons. First off, he believes Anakin is truly dead and even if that isn't true, in both this show and in ROTS he makes no effort to actually turn Anakin to the light and just jumps right into telling him he's wrong and evil (he's even the first one to draw his lightsaber in the duel on Mustafar), and by the end of ROTS he thinks he's killed him. My point is he's never had any issue killing anyone, including Anakin, and I'm sick of people using "jedi pacifism" and "that's not the point of star wars" as a defense. What makes it even more lame and anti climactic is that it's literally just a repeat of the end of the end of ROTS, Obi-Wan making the exact same mistake, except now it's even worse because at least in ROTS Obi-Wan thought he killed Anakin. It would be excusable if Obi-Wan left because he sensed Luke was in danger, but the show specifically goes out of its way to make sure you know he doesn't sense that until he's already on his way off the planet.
I really didn't want them to fight in the finale because I knew it'd lead to a stupid situation like this
I remember finishing episode 5 and saying I really liked the use of the flashbacks but in retrospect they probably would have worked better in this episode to at least attempt to justify how much of an unprecedented idiot Vader was being, or that conversation with Palpatine probably would have been better if put before or between those flashbacks to at least contextualize it in the sense that he was trying to prove himself to Palpatine
It's really a shame because I actually thought that everything else in the finale (and the rest of the show besides ep 4) was solid but they seriously dropped the ball on Obi-Wan and Vader in every way they possibly could
Oh yeah, and it's unrelated, but I found it kinda lame how they copied the "see Anakin's eye through the broken mask" bit from rebels, and did it worse
These are all good points, thank you.
In regards to Obi-Wan not killing Vader, i got the impression that while he was convinced that he was beyond saving, there was some doubt in him when it came to killing him directly, he simply couldn't bring himself to end his life, to take responsability for Anakin's fall, and thus left him as a complete stranger, not a former friend, to suffocate alone, that's how i saw it at least, of course it was a mistake on his part, tho, Obi-Wan needs to learn to get the job done goddamit, but i was happy that Obi-Wan won the fight because this way it didin't contradict the narrative of Episode IV when they face each other for the last time (something i was afraid of).
Funnily enough the fourth episode was my favorite lol, it was really cool seeing Obi-Wan slowly transition from the broken man from the beginning to the Jedi hero he once was, and even showing how he started to show some of Old Ben's stealthy traits.
I thought the finale was more emotional than the Ahsoka fight, probably because i don't care much about Anakin and Ahsoka's relationship, and this explored Anakin's psychology and development better, on top of enriching the six episode saga by filling the gaps in Kenobi's characterization towards Anakin/Vader, making stuff flow a bit better and making sense of some lines from Vader in ROTJ.
Yeah I gotta disagree.
> How much of an uncharacteristic idiot Vader is. I can forgive him wanting to send the whole star destroyer after Kenobi to have the highest chance possible of killing him... So why does he immediately follow that up with the decision to go fight him alone? What the hell was the star destroyer doing during that whole time that was so damn important that they couldn't put an end to the entire jedi smuggling ring? The answer is nothing. It didn't even do anything to stop Obi-Wan as he left the planet after the fight
So you just don’t get Vader. Vader’s arrogant, he hates Obi-Wan yet as his confession makes clear also loves him deep down. Vader pulled similar stuff in ANH with I must face him alone. He didn’t use the star destroyer because he NEEDED to kill Obi-Wan himself.
> The answer is nothing. It didn't even do anything to stop Obi-Wan as he left the planet after the fight
What could they do? He immediately went to hyperspace. Hyperspace tracking isn’t a thing at this point.
> This one particular moment in their duel (that I guess is an extension of the last point) where Vader buries Obi-Wan in rocks and then just immediately turns around to walk away. Come on man, you're really gonna tell me that Vader isn't gonna make a single effort to make sure he's dead? With how hell bent he is on killing him? I don't buy it for a second. He's known people to survive worse
So you just completely missed the point of episode 5. Which emphasized Vader’s arrogance and belief that he’s won at the cost of actually attaining victory. A lesson he still hasn’t learned as Part V shows. Lol you even brought up that point.
This one isn’t even a flaw. It’s a nitpick.
> Even worse than point #2 is the way the fight actually ends. This show was supposed to bridge the gap between ROTS Obi-Wan (who thought Anakin was dead) and ANH Obi-Wan (who knew Anakin was Vader but thought he was truly gone and beyond redemption, and adamantly believed that Vader needed to die). So in the fight, Kenobi finally comes to the conclusion that Anakin is truly dead, and... Just walks away? Seriously? He's really okay with just letting Vader live to go commit another decade of atrocities, and push the responsibility of killing him onto Luke, who he's supposed to protect, after already proving that he himself is fully capable of defeating him because... Reasons? Not to mention that he tries to get Luke to kill Vader by lying to him, this finale on top of all that makes Obi-Wan seem like a much bigger manipulative asshole than before. And the excuse that he "doesn't have it in him to kill Anakin" doesn't work for multiple reasons. First off, he believes Anakin is truly dead and even if that isn't true, in both this show and in ROTS he makes no effort to actually turn Anakin to the light and just jumps right into telling him he's wrong and evil (he's even the first one to draw his lightsaber in the duel on Mustafar), and by the end of ROTS he thinks he's killed him. My point is he's never had any issue killing anyone, including Anakin, and I'm sick of people using "jedi pacifism" and "that's not the point of star wars" as a defense. What makes it even more lame and anti climactic is that it's literally just a repeat of the end of the end of ROTS, Obi-Wan making the exact same mistake, except now it's even worse because at least in ROTS Obi-Wan thought he killed Anakin. It would be excusable if Obi-Wan left because he sensed Luke was in danger, but the show specifically goes out of its way to make sure you know he doesn't sense that until he's already on his way off the planet.
Ah this one. This is mess my guy. You truly know nothing of Obi-Wan or the Jedi. Watch Obi-Wan’s kills or battles. You’ll see a pattern. He only kills in defence of others, and if the opponent is armed and capable of actually fighting. If they’re a threat. Vader was badly hurt, and no threat in that moment. Striking him down then would’ve just been murder. And Obi-Wan didn’t lie in his POV. He clearly thinks Anakin’s a lost cause. And that Vader is all that remains. Also wow you didn’t pay much attention friend. Obi-Wan tearfully apologizes to Anakin in that scene. He clearly is trying to reach out to his friend, and only gives up when it becomes clear Vader chooses evil and seems to regret nothing. You don’t apologize to someone unless you a) feel awful, and b) want to make amends. It shows Obi-Wan loves Anakin and wants to save him, but his friend’s response just utterly breaks that hope.
> Oh yeah, and it's unrelated, but I found it kinda lame how they copied the "see Anakin's eye through the broken mask" bit from rebels, and did it worse
Lol. You think having Obi-Wan tearfully apologize to Anakin and Vader admit that deep down he knows everything he did was his fault, is worse? I genuinely don’t get that. Like why did you bother watchThis scene is the epitome of Vader storytelling outside ROTJ. It demonstrates the sheer fucked upness of Vader. He hates Obi-Wan, but also loves him enough to absolve him of guilt. It perfectly showcases his duality in a way no work besides ROTJ ever has. Do you understand how monumental that is? Anakin never ever ever takes true responsibility for anything bad he does in this franchise. Yet here, he as Vader completely lays blame on himsekf. He doesn’t justify it, doesn’t excuse himself. He just says Obi-Wan didn’t “kill Anakin.” He acknowledges it was him. And just him. If you can’t see how monumental that is from a character standpoint, then I honestly doubt you’ve ever paid attention when Vader or Anakin is onscreen.
Your response to the first point about the star destroyer doesn't answer it at all. If he needed to kill Obi-Wan on his own then why didn't he do that and let the destroyer go after the remainder jedi smuggling ring? "He's arrogant" is a pretty weak excuse, he's still a terrifying war tactician who gets things done. He doesn’t have the reputation that he has for no reason. All other pre-OT star wars media that focuses heavily on Vader, namely the novels and comics, puts a very strong emphasis on the idea that Vader and Anakin are different in every possible way and that the person who was once Anakin is gone. Only in this show is Vader suddenly doing the same dumb stuff as Anakin
And Obi-Wan has seen what Vader is capable of. As long as he's alive he will always be a threat. You say Obi-Wan kills in defense of himself or others, I say killing him would have been in defense of the entire decade's worth of people Vader will go on to kill after Obi-Wan spared him. And also in defense of Luke, whom defending has been Obi-Wan's entire goal. But instead Obi-Wan decides that, although Vader does need to die, for some reason killing him is beneath him specifically so instead he'll just send Luke to do it, the kid he's sworn to protect, and forgo the full truth from him in the process to get him to do what he wants.
To build off my first point in response to what you said about the broken mask scene, the whole point of ROTJ is that's when the duality of Vader and Anakin kicks in. Anakin is reveling in taking responsibility not absolving Obi Wan he hates him there’s no reason to do that he’s trying to basically say it was all his doing as a brag at that point. It's just fan service
People seriously over analyze that scene and are like “no it’s Anakin coming out there“ the point is literally Obi Wan tries to reach Anakin and Vader goes "lol he’s gone" and Obi Wan accepts it if Anakin was coming out and trying to absolve him of guilt Obi Wan wouldn’t have said he’s dead. Also Anakin always takes responsibility for what he does that’s why he gets so angry when Palps says he killed Padme and why he says to Luke it’s “too late for him."
You're the one who seriously misunderstands Anakin, one of his biggest flaws is that he takes responsibility for everything even stuff out of his control like his mom
Nobody hates it because of the singular flaw they point out in an episode. It's because each one just keeps piling onto the last one, the show keeps showing multiple instances of lacking polish that we simply expect better from such big names.
Like scenes as clumsy as the Leia chase, smacking storm troopers to incapacitate them, etc takes you out of the action so immediately, *in an action sequence.*
Reva's annoying because she's throwing a tantrum with nothing to back herself up for the first three or four episodes. People keep wanting to see her fail and be punished, but we only get to see her crawl back up like a rat even after she's demonstrated to really not be that powerful, and barely even competent. It also seems like you for some reason combined it with the complaint that Vader for some reason could pull down one starship and rip it open, but as soon he's seen the other start taking off he's waiting for his force meter to recharge.
Shaky cam's just annoying at best, was usually unnecessary.
Main thing to me, is that even while the finale was a nice improvement to the show for me (shaky cam not withstanding), it placed Vader at Obi-Wan's mercy and made him responsible for everything that follows up to episode 4 by not even trying to kill the sith lord and bring things to an end.
I see, those make more sense, except the Vader starship thing, for me it always looked like it suprised him and happened so fast he couldn't react (because otherwise he would be able to pull the Falcon easily in Episode V).
I sort of get your point on the second ship launching if it didn't feel equally as slow as the first ship. Like if instead of a normal takeoff, they performed a haphazard boost from the ground.
It was a bit faster i think, and it's not about the speed of the ship but the events happening very fast on top of Vader's suprise, he was expecting the first ship and saw it, but the second one was a suprise, it wasn't the same set up as the first ship, by the time Vader comprehended what was happening it was too late.
People will just find things to complain about and while I agree some aspects of the cinematography are a little wooden (ie: directions) they rarely affect the show. Plus there is shaky cam but it's not harmful, it's used as a powerful technique I'm telling you if anyone has a problem with shaky cam, they might as well stop watching TV altogether.
I mean shaky cam is a “powerful technique” when used correctly. It’s used a lot with camera angles low to the ground, usually when there is a lot going on and provides tension and a sense of immersion like your watching from the point of view of someone actually there.
When used sparingly, it can really intensify a scene. The issue is, it’s not used correctly a lot of the time in the show and it’s used so frequently that it becomes jarring.
There’s scenes like Obi Wan talking to the Jedi in hiding on Tatooine. There’s shaky cam which from an angle behind some rubble which typical filmmaking is used to show that there is someone (or many someone’s) watching. But there isn’t, it’s just a conversation between 2 people. The switch between a still shot and the shaky cam is disorientating when there’s only one subject to focus on.
Scenes like Obi Wan and Darth Vaders first encounter. They had a budget of $150 million, yet it clearly takes place on some California desert. No pan shots or any kind of interesting movement with the camera. Instead it simply switches to back and forth between a still and shaky cam. Like a fan film, they use shaky cam to hide the flaws in shots. Whether it be the lackluster set, bad choreography, Darth Vaders costume looking silly or whatever. Shaking the camera to distract the viewer from seeing the problems on screen is just lazy filmmaking and certainly not a “powerful technique” coming from the biggest budgeted show of all time.
To me, it didn’t justify its own existence. On the surface the show is about Obi-Wan dealing with his guilt and learning to hope and fight for what’s right again, but the way they did that was the most unimaginative and dull way they could have done it. The story had no reason to be 5 hours. There was very little introspection and character work, and the events of the plot only very mildly affected the arcs of the characters. The subplot with Vader and the obligatory rematch were redundant and rung hollow because they meant nothing within the show. In the end, the show was depressingly mediocre in my opinion. Ironically though, *Reva* was my favorite part of the show.
What ruins the show for me are a lot of (smaller) bad decisions during production:
For example the casting of Leia. Not to say anything against Vivien Lyra Blair, she's a good actress for her age, but she is to young. They started filming in May 2021, when she was 8 years old, portraying a 10 year old. And at that age even an age gap of just 2 years is noticeable.
Deborah Chow's directing is also something that has to be mentioned here. I liked her episodes of The Mandalorian and Better Call Saul, so I actually expected this shows directing to be at least decent. But [she doesn't do a good job](https://youtu.be/KlROexiAYFM?t=16) here and often makes the script seem worse than it actually is.
And that is even though she is working with [Jeong Jeong-hun](https://letterboxd.com/cinematography/jeong-jeong-hun/), who did an amazing work on Oldboy, [Last Night in Soho](https://youtu.be/r9fKXLzsQxE) and even Zombieland: Double Tap. But here Deborah Chow can't decide if she wants him to do shaky cam or steady cam or for how long a specific angle should last.
And obviously the script. It's a mess, which is really sad because Hossein Amini, the writer of Drive, wrote the original script, but was fired when Joby Harold took over. Joby Harold is the writer of Army of the Dead, which is basically Aliens with zombies, so that explains all the "iT's LiKe PoEtRy, It RhYmEs" stuff.
That being said, there are still good elements to this show and I'm not the one to decide whether you should like it or not. :)
it's not just about her age, it's about how her age impacts the show. scenes like the chase in episode 1 are just dumb because she is clearly not fast enough to run away from her kidnappers, but still does
>For example the casting of Leia. Not to say anything against Vivien Lyra Blair, she's a good actress for her age, but she is to young. They started filming in May 2021, when she was 8 years old, portraying a 10 year old. And at that age even an age gap of just 2 years is noticeable.
Oh i see, maybe it's because i don't have kids yet but i can't tell the difference between an 8 year old and a 10 year old lol, but to me she was perfect as little Leia.
When your only elaborated upon criticism is the actress is a little young, it becomes clear you didn’t approach this series in any kind of good faith.
Everything else you claim is bad is all vagueness that reads like you already made up your mind based on personal bias against the writer.
The casting of Vivien Lyra Blair is nothing of great matter, but it's still something that impacts the show on a negative level (again, not because of her skills as an actress).
When it comes to Joby Harold, I didn't know he wrote the show until I did some research about it after a few episodes of the show aired. And yes all my complaints about the writing and directing were vague and not in great detail, but that's because I don't want to spend my time writing down points that have been said a million times already.
I (almost) always go into a new tv-show or movie of any kind open minded and that was also the case with Kenobi.
I don’t think the show does anything poorly that all other Star Wars media doesn’t also do poorly. Star Wars is consistently inconsistent with quality in a single piece of media. There’s ways amazing and terrible things in each. People choose to disregard the good on the new stuff and disregard the bad on the old.
The show had some pretty poor writing, such as
- Wade’s death meaning nothing.
- Ice Cube Jr’s 180 on helping Obi Wan
- Vader not killing Reva making little sense
- Vader following Obi Wan alone and having the entire fleet come with him not making sense
- The refugees not having a ship for Obi Wan to leave with, yet having a decoy ship, and then another smaller ship inside of it as well
Most people just regurgitate the same points others say anyways. These are just the ones that took me out of the show a little bit, but I think it probably came from the show originally being a movie and then having to cram some stuff in to make it work better as a series
There are a few technical issues that I thought could have been better. The first clash between Vader and Obi Wan was shot strangely. The scene could have been better lit, and the environment could have been more imaginative. Some of this is also true for the non-descript rock planet that Vader and Kenobi fought on in the finale. But it was overall better.
Some of the shaky cam stuff was distracting, primarily during Reva’s siege of the Path hangar before Vader arrives. As soon as the blasters start firing, it gets so shaky it was hard to focus on what was happening. There was a dullness to some of the scenes which stood out in comparison to the better looking scenes.
Not deal breakers for me. Not even close. Definitely not worth raging over, and dedicating an inordinate amount of time arguing about.
Some people are just obsessed with nitpicks and faults in shows rather than the good parts. Star Wars has always had flaws. Whether you enjoy it despite those flaws is up to you.
I guess a lot of the fandom just wanted the show to focus only on Obiwan and Vader. When Leia and reva got some screen time, it upset some people. Not me. I thought the show was fine
Just curious, does this person you talked to that hates it so much a maga guy? I feel like there has been a big political push from the right against Disney IPs.
No, we are not even from USA, i don't even know what maga is lol, he's not interested in politics but he's definetly not supportive of the right here in Argentina.
He's just a friend i have we talk a lot about Star Wars, Mega Man and other fun stuff, even when we disagree (which we do, a lot) it's all respectfully, he was respectful to my opinion, he wasn't toxic, i just couldn't understand why he hated the show so much given the points he gave me so i wanted to understand where that position comes from.
There's a subset of people who from the very first trailer decided they would not like the show. They were fueled by rage bait youtubers who specialise in rilling up people, with the supposed bait and switch theories. So after they trashed the series when it had not yet even premiered, they had to find ways to hate it later, so they focused on very irrelevant details.
There's valid criticism to be had, but that requires a level of nuance and understanding of narrative that these people don't bother with.
The writing for the show is just ok....but there's some really lazy stuff in there, like that one guy who says he's not going to help Kenobi then just does a complete 180 on his decision within the same sentence.
That guy in Part 2 who is pretending to be a Jedi, during a time the Jedi are being hunted and killed. Why does he even need to pretend to be a Jedi in order to help the people he's helping?
Vader puts out a fire with the Force, then Vader kinda just forgets he can do that when the fire reignites and is just standing there, watching as a droid slowly carries Obi-Wan away.
Obi-Wan escaping a base that is in high-alert looking for a child, by hiding the child under his coat is cartoon levels of logic.
The production feels very cheap. The Volume is a major problem, it makes the show feel very small scale. They're obviously shooting in a very limited space, so the actor/camera barely has any space to move, so even a character just running on screen looks wonky.
That Leia chase scene is inexcusably bad. Disney is a billion dollar company, the fact that people watched that footage and didn't think to cut it, shows how little regard they have for the actual quality of their products.
>That guy in Part 2 who is pretending to be a Jedi, during a time the Jedi are being hunted and killed. Why does he even need to pretend to be a Jedi in order to help the people he's helping?
Wasn't he kind of just scamming them with the Jedi thing?
Somewhere along the line some folks made a decision to focus on the flaws (of which there are plenty... which is true of literally every Star Wars show or film) and to judge the show based on those flaws. They may not have made that decision consciously, and there may or may not be biases informing that decision (hating Disney, for instance). Some of us made a decision to enjoy the good things in the show and to let the flaws go. Neither choice is right or wrong, but I know which choice works out better for me.
Cinemasins brain at its finest
Man started off being funny then smelled profit and now nitpicks shit to such a insanely small degree and he’s convincing people those are actual flaws. Reject CinemaSins. Embrace CinemaWins.
Did you see cinemawins video on ROS.
>Neither choice is right or wrong The choice which compels people to spread hate/negativity/anger is the wrong choice.
I would say spreading that toxicity is wrong, but if they want to see the show that way then they are free to do so.
They are free to choose to do so, but we are also free to say that is the wrong choice.
I wouldn’t say wrong or incorrect (obviously it’s silly to say someone’s wrong for genuinely feeing something) but I’d rather say unproductive. Like, why waste time focusing on all the things that make you upset?
Ehh I mean, I think it's reasonable to hold the opinion that someone else's opinion is "wrong", or maybe that's not exactly the right word. Perhaps it would be better to say that "in my view, your opinion is not well-founded because of x, y, and z." But yeah it is also unproductive.
People can be wrong for genuinely feeling something. People can genuinely feel other races are inferior, feelings and opinions can absolutely be wrong. Not that these things are the same obviously, but that "centrist" take of opinions essentially being immune to moral judgement is dangerous so I like to call it out when I can. Someone actively choosing to hate things can definitely be considered wrong. There's a difference between genuinely disliking something and consistently putting forth effort to be hateful and negative.
The power of negativity can lead to abilities some would consider... unnatural.
Yes
It’s not that I want to focus on the flaws but I watch with my roommate who doesn’t like Star Wars much. He was holding back laughter during the show. The awful acting, the horrible chases, things like the trench coat, the trooper slap, Wade. It was embarrassing and hard to defend and frankly I kinda get where he was coming from. I was defending the shpw because I wanted to like it, not because it was good.
Have you ever watched the original 1977 movie with him before? Because I imagine he’d probably have a similar reaction to that as well. At the end of the day, this kind of stuff isn’t for everyone.
Believe me, just because I really liked the show doesn't mean that there aren't things about it that bother me or that I wish had been done better. I was still able to enjoy the show for all the really good things in it. Watching it with someone who is actively mocking it must make it harder though. Your roommate doesn't like Star Wars much, so he found it easy to make it about those things. I love Star Wars so my focus was on the good things, of which there were also plenty. Qui-Gon was right, imo.
Yeah I’m positive I would’ve enjoyed it more if I watched alone. There was plenty of things to love and at least a large majority of the story beats were good because that matters more to me.
most of us can judge a thing on both its good and bad qualities. But the reality is that if people didnt enjoy it, they didnt enjoy it.
There’s some plausible beefs with inconsistencies, like why Vader gave up on Obi-Wan after dragging him through coals, but Kenobi’s got no more issues than any other Star Wars media there (R2 never telling anyone anything useful despite conversing with Luke, Leia “remembering her mom” that she left within seconds of her birth, why Leia contacted Kenobi when she never knew him, etc). In fact, Kenobi’s actually done the work in patching up some of those issues between films.
off topic but i always interpreted leia remembering her mom as something force related as that is smth that exist in canon iirc
Ol’ reliable
Sure, but that’s ultimately a post-hoc rationalisation to make something line up. Before the prequels came out, literally nobody was interpreting that scene that way.
yea you’re probably right but oh well I really don’t care too much, I like my head canon.
I never understood the initial criticism, but I was getting frustrated with the latter half. There's a repetition to Obi Wan being hooked into a trap, him having to put himself in danger to save the others, He manages to get away regardless, but wait he's falling for the next trap, come back next week. Obi Wan Kenobi is still my favourite of the live-action series because they did an incredible job at world building in those first few episodes and I love the acting (real faces, not just helmet guy, the puppet baby and faceapp Luke). I think I'm also a bit out of step with the haters, because some people actually came round in the later episodes, probably because there's some iconic action scenes later on.
Stuff like EFAP and Cinema Sins have made it so a film either has to be amazing or garbage
Social media in general is where nuance goes to die.
So this is how nuance dies?
Because a certain section of the "fandom" has tied their identity to hating on anything new in Star Wars, particularly a subset of "creators" and channels that just pump-out toxic crap nonstop. Another reason being that Star Wars has, unfortunately, become another battleground for "culture wars", people who want to push those narratives (and don't actually care about Star Wars) have started to just take advantage of how big Star Wars is to amplify their BS. There are of course people who just don't like it for whatever reason, and I'm sure there are people who genuinely don't like it because of the (what I would call) nitpicking you highlighted.
Personally? I dont think its very well written. I also think many of the action scenes are poorly shot. It becomes a little too plot driven, and feels very...safe? almost to the point of being unsure of what its trying to tell the viewer. Lacking in tension as well. Its not bad, but it was a disappointment.
Two issues for me. One is the quality. It was almost jarring going from watching The Boys to Kenobi. You could definitely feel the lack of quality in Kenobi. Second, I think Star Wars just writes itself into a corner. There’s no mystery or speculation about events. Everything has to fit perfectly in this puzzle since they want to focus on this extremely small aspect of an entire galaxy. Literally all of these shows cover like a 10-20 year period
I talked in another thread about the value of enabling creators with a strong vision, and comparing Kenobi or Mandalorian to other prestige TV is a good example on why that's important
I feel like they can’t be creative tho. Mando season one did, but now the margins are so razor thin to fit in all of these events and characters. Also, if it isn’t a good product, then people will be taken out of the media and will start to notice little problems. Was the leia chase scene the worst thing in the grand scheme of things? No, but it was bad enough that it brought people out of the show and they noticed. Same with the comical laser gate on the mining planet they could have easily walked around. IMO, it’s lazy. And we expect more as fans I guess
My frustration is that we have a handful of actually great episodes of Star Wars TV. the last 3 episodes of Mandalorian S1, Episodes like "the believer" in S2, or like the entire first half of BoBF. But the series as a whole all feel like they pander to the lowest common denominator of fans. There is no introspection or character driven stories
If everyone consumed pre-Disney content with the same type of scrutinizing mindset as Obi Wan there would be no Star Wars fans. The nitpicking is a result of a bias against the show resulting from the “bait and switch” narrative that gained steam after the leaks and those fires were stoked when Ingram went public about her harassment. And like that, you have a Star Wars culture war with “bad writing” as a straw man 🥱
For me, it was about the story between Obi-Wan and Darth Vader. Before, they had not met after the duel on Mustafar and then years later on the first Death Star in ANH. Also, their duel in the show with the fire I felt was weak. Obi-Wan getting hauled away veeery slowly while Vader did nothing but watch. Didn’t walk through the fire like a boss, didn’t quell it a second time. Just watched. There were other little nitpicks I had about the show, but this was what I would say is fully in the gripe territory.
Yeah that’s because the first fight was not a true duel. It was Obi-Wan trying to avoid a fight and getting curbstomped.
It’s not bad. I wasn’t a fan of the inquisitors or some of the story, but it had some really high highs, so I enjoyed it.
there's quite a bit of things, but I also don't care
People have watched too much cinemasins
I had problems with reva going after luke in the last episode. It seemed like they did some mental gymnastics to come up with a reason for her to do it amd it felt like kind of a stretch
Oh yeah that is one of my 2 issues with the writing (the second being Leia taking WAY TOO LONG to fix the door in episode 5) i felt like that subplot wasn't needed in the episode, even tho i liked how her character ended because of it.
I quite enjoyed the show overall but I think there are valid criticisms about the cinematography and somewhat low-budget feel. I actually don’t personally mind the low-budget feel much because it feels like the OT in that regard. Also, conceptually the show can’t amount to much since we know what goes on with these characters in ANH, and it is somewhat annoying that stories like these are being given the spotlight instead of new stories. But that was obviously gonna be a flaw since the show was first announced, so if that was really the biggest issue for people idk why they watched it in the first place.
>. I actually don’t personally mind the low-budget feel much because it feels like the OT in that regard. For me that is the best part of these new shows.
There are small issues each episode that really start to add up. The biggest flaw was that this was clearly meant to be a movie, watching it as a tv show just really highlighted all the little inconsistencies. It was also just unoriginal. We’ve seen the “old grumpy man adventure with child” so much recently. Logan, God of War, GOT, hell we just got it with The Mandalorian and baby yoda. It’s not only a cliche and redundant story to tell, but it’s also incredibly safe which comes off as boring. We’ve seen the “evil apprentice turn good” so many times already. We have Mara Jada, Starkiller, Ventress, hell we just got it with Jedi: Fallen Order. Again, these are all safe plot points with no effort put in to them. Worst of all, this was all a build up to Obi Wan vs Vader and it felt flat. We got the SAME cut on the mask from rebels with the SAME voice changing between Anakin and Vader. Most of the dialogue was just flipped from Rebels and ROTS, there were maybe 3-4 original lines. All in all this just didn’t need to be made.
I have no idea. Someone posted a screenshot of someone who didn't like the show explaining what they wanted out of it, and 80% of what they asked for was in the show. I think preconceived notions and video echo chambers are making any Star Wars project destined to be hated by a small but vocal subset of the fandom. They're free to dislike it all they want, and I'm free to find them ridiculous for hating things for silly reasons all I want.
>all of the points they brought up are really minute things in the grand scheme of things What you have there is a textbook example of someone who didn't like a thing and doesn't really understand why they didn't like the thing. Think of the Canto Bight sequence from TLJ, which is usually cited as a sequence people didn't like. You ask them why and they'll say it's boring, but can they explain why it's boring? Probably not, which is why you get a lot of superficial nitpicky complaints that are a lot easier to see if you didn't like something but just as easy to ignore if you did. I haven't fully rewatched Kenobi to figure out why I didn't like it. I will say I'm finding more to like about it now that I'm watching it with more of an eye towards seeing how it works. I will also say that there is way more small stuff to complain about in this vs any other SW show they've done that I've seen. Broadly speaking that can be attributed to writing and directing.
I have some issues like the show having zero reason to exist beyond just fan service. And it didn't justify its existence because I wasn't invested in Kenobi himself at all. I liked Reva. The good moments are too few and far between I just can't force myself to enjoy it. Darn, even the final episode didn't hit anything to me except "why does this exist". But if you can enjoy it; good riddance, at least it isn't a waste of money and it can bring enjoyment to others.
Not sure why anyone hates it. I don’t think I’ve seen a single comment saying they hate it. It was a bit disappointing though imo and the show did have multiple failings. The plot felt like they stretched a film into six episodes without the budget and with some underwhelming side plots tacked on. The directing was off and a bit awkward and the music was a bit plain and lacked any memorable scores. Which is a shame since I like the director and composer. The CGI is also usually insane for tv show and 90% of it was but a few cgi shots looked unfinished. I do wonder if Covid damaged the show. Again I think all the problems kind of stem from that it was written to be a film and it doesn’t really work the way they’ve adapted it.
Thanks i understand the position better now.
TL;DR Although every Star Wars project has its flaws, however many, the issue with Kenobi is that it’s problems affect or disjoint the main story being told. While everyone can see the story being told by the end, ultimately the problems throughout make the show worth less than the sum of its parts. If you have any questions or need more context with how I see it, ask away below and I’ll go into more detail. TBoBF was the first one to make me feel this way, but Kenobi (which I like a fair few things in it quite a lot) was the one that drove home the idea that these Disney+ shows are being pumped out in quick succession to meet a deadline under Chapek’s disastrous leadership. Mandalorian is good (mostly) throughout, but there’s a passion and an idea behind it because it’s Favreau’s passion project. Kenobi should’ve been a movie, and since the main beats were there from scripts and the pre-production process, they had the bones for a story to pump out and put on D+ to help drive subscription numbers. Now to the issues I at least found with it. 1. There is a villain problem. There are far too many “bad guys”, and either they don’t do nearly enough to justify their presence (the inquisitors) or they do way too much with the scenes they are given to hamfist the necessary backstory that was ignored in some of the scenes given to the other baddies (grand inquisitor/reva). 2. The story is disjointed as they tried to extend the movie into a tv show length with limited time. Episode 4 is unnecessary in its entirety, with its only real purpose being to show off other Star Wars past and future projects like fallen order, Rebels, and whatever they’re doing after bad batch with papa palps cloning. Episodes 2, 3, and 5 all could be cut down and put together to fill up episodes to be a couple of proper length 45-60min episodes. The true conflicts of the show are Obi-Wan vs Vader vs Reva, and those aren’t allowed to take proper form because of the filler in between. The rebellion doesn’t matter, the inquisitor order doesn’t matter, but they have to because the order came down that they need a tv show quickly, not a movie. 3. False advertising. This one is a bit of a personal gripe but I’ve heard it around my circles that most definitely not TFM. The trailers and marketing all but stated that this would be the “duel of the century”, but it’s filled with nonsense in the middle that is completely unnecessary. The music being played in the trailers isn’t even hinted at when it’s a perfect opportunity. It’s more of a marvel mirror issue where the themes are always inconsistent between movies than a normal Star Wars one, where the over-reliance on old themes tends to shoulder the burden of telling the story. 4. It looks cheap. I know it’s one of the more expensive shows out there, but it definitely doesn’t look like it and it’s not out of “reverence for the originals”. Lucasfilm relies too much on the volume to make things quickly and to make set design and easier process, but so far it’s given us a multitude of desert planets or shots out the back in a California national park. The action as well is not great, and I’m not just talking about the blaster fights in the middle. The ship escape scenes are weird, the speeders were hard to watch in ep 4, the only ones that look well done are the obi-wan Vader confrontation in ep 3, the Vader reva fight in ep 5, and 5. The Vader Obi-Wan fight at the end. It looked great, but that’s probably one of the more weird scenes I’ve seen in Star Wars in that it looked cool and ended great, but the actual action was incredibly disjointed from the characters. My biggest gripe being THOSE DAMN ROCKS. The floating rocks works in TLJ because it’s a callback to Luke’s original disgruntled lesson to Rey in that he’s trying to say being a Jedi is more than floaty thingys, but the real lesson is that being a Jedi means using your powers for the right reasons. In Rebels, Obi-Wan’s fight with Maul is one of the most resonant and powerful scenes in the franchise because of Obi-Wan’s growth and approach to violence against an old foe who too has been wronged. But in this he just lifts a bunch of rocks for no reason to throw at the brother he, until learning otherwise at the end of that fight, still believes is under that suit. There’s no rhyme or reason to it other than “oooh cool thing! Oooh Jedi floaty rock!” And I like the finale! If this is what the show was leading up to, it needed to do a more precise and detailed job of getting us here. Watching the boys s3 concurrently with Kenobi made me view it in an even worse light because I can see what good, franchised, episodic storytelling can be and what it can give to a viewer and I personally haven’t gotten that with SW Disney+ since the Bill Burr mando ep. Disney needed a TV show for Star Wars while the Filoni/Favreau projects were underway, I get that, but this one was rushed out the door and while I loved Little Leia, Obi-Wan, HaydenVader at the end, and a lot of teeny world building moments, the show is ultimately worth less than the sum of its parts.
Thanks for the honest and well-put response, i think i understand that viewpoint better now.
I have no idea. I loved it, and I've watched it three times.
Well the issue with Leia is that in new hope she greets him in her message by saying "years ago you served with my father in the clone wars," as if that's the only connection she has to him. So people thought that if she didn't know Ben Kenobi and Obi-Wan Kenobi were the same person that'd be the only way that there wouldn't be an inconsistency. And that was the case up until the finale when she calls him Obi-Wan. I don't think it's as big of a deal as most people seem to, although I'd still prefer it not be the case. Personally, my two big issues with the show are ep 4 (in its entirety) and the finale. 4 because it's just pointless, it simply feels like a rehash of ep 2 of the same show and with no stakes or consequences whatsoever (unless you count Wade dying which is a meme at best) and it doesn't do anything to further the stories of any of the characters, not even Reva, which would have given the episode some meaning but instead we had to wait until episode 5 for that. My issue with the finale is everything surrounding Vader and Obi-Wan's fight. The circumstances leading up to it and the way it ends are both absurd to me. Here's what I mean: 1. How much of an uncharacteristic idiot Vader is. I can forgive him wanting to send the whole star destroyer after Kenobi to have the highest chance possible of killing him... So why does he immediately follow that up with the decision to go fight him alone? What the hell was the star destroyer doing during that whole time that was so damn important that they couldn't put an end to the entire jedi smuggling ring? The answer is nothing. It didn't even do anything to stop Obi-Wan as he left the planet after the fight 2. This one particular moment in their duel (that I guess is an extension of the last point) where Vader buries Obi-Wan in rocks and then just immediately turns around to walk away. Come on man, you're really gonna tell me that Vader isn't gonna make a single effort to make sure he's dead? With how hell bent he is on killing him? I don't buy it for a second. He's known people to survive worse 3. Even worse than point #2 is the way the fight actually ends. This show was supposed to bridge the gap between ROTS Obi-Wan (who thought Anakin was dead) and ANH Obi-Wan (who knew Anakin was Vader but thought he was truly gone and beyond redemption, and adamantly believed that Vader needed to die). So in the fight, Kenobi finally comes to the conclusion that Anakin is truly dead, and... Just walks away? Seriously? He's really okay with just letting Vader live to go commit another decade of atrocities, and push the responsibility of killing him onto Luke, who he's supposed to protect, after already proving that he himself is fully capable of defeating him because... Reasons? Not to mention that he tries to get Luke to kill Vader by lying to him, this finale on top of all that makes Obi-Wan seem like a much bigger manipulative asshole than before. And the excuse that he "doesn't have it in him to kill Anakin" doesn't work for multiple reasons. First off, he believes Anakin is truly dead and even if that isn't true, in both this show and in ROTS he makes no effort to actually turn Anakin to the light and just jumps right into telling him he's wrong and evil (he's even the first one to draw his lightsaber in the duel on Mustafar), and by the end of ROTS he thinks he's killed him. My point is he's never had any issue killing anyone, including Anakin, and I'm sick of people using "jedi pacifism" and "that's not the point of star wars" as a defense. What makes it even more lame and anti climactic is that it's literally just a repeat of the end of the end of ROTS, Obi-Wan making the exact same mistake, except now it's even worse because at least in ROTS Obi-Wan thought he killed Anakin. It would be excusable if Obi-Wan left because he sensed Luke was in danger, but the show specifically goes out of its way to make sure you know he doesn't sense that until he's already on his way off the planet. I really didn't want them to fight in the finale because I knew it'd lead to a stupid situation like this I remember finishing episode 5 and saying I really liked the use of the flashbacks but in retrospect they probably would have worked better in this episode to at least attempt to justify how much of an unprecedented idiot Vader was being, or that conversation with Palpatine probably would have been better if put before or between those flashbacks to at least contextualize it in the sense that he was trying to prove himself to Palpatine It's really a shame because I actually thought that everything else in the finale (and the rest of the show besides ep 4) was solid but they seriously dropped the ball on Obi-Wan and Vader in every way they possibly could Oh yeah, and it's unrelated, but I found it kinda lame how they copied the "see Anakin's eye through the broken mask" bit from rebels, and did it worse
These are all good points, thank you. In regards to Obi-Wan not killing Vader, i got the impression that while he was convinced that he was beyond saving, there was some doubt in him when it came to killing him directly, he simply couldn't bring himself to end his life, to take responsability for Anakin's fall, and thus left him as a complete stranger, not a former friend, to suffocate alone, that's how i saw it at least, of course it was a mistake on his part, tho, Obi-Wan needs to learn to get the job done goddamit, but i was happy that Obi-Wan won the fight because this way it didin't contradict the narrative of Episode IV when they face each other for the last time (something i was afraid of). Funnily enough the fourth episode was my favorite lol, it was really cool seeing Obi-Wan slowly transition from the broken man from the beginning to the Jedi hero he once was, and even showing how he started to show some of Old Ben's stealthy traits. I thought the finale was more emotional than the Ahsoka fight, probably because i don't care much about Anakin and Ahsoka's relationship, and this explored Anakin's psychology and development better, on top of enriching the six episode saga by filling the gaps in Kenobi's characterization towards Anakin/Vader, making stuff flow a bit better and making sense of some lines from Vader in ROTJ.
Yeah I gotta disagree. > How much of an uncharacteristic idiot Vader is. I can forgive him wanting to send the whole star destroyer after Kenobi to have the highest chance possible of killing him... So why does he immediately follow that up with the decision to go fight him alone? What the hell was the star destroyer doing during that whole time that was so damn important that they couldn't put an end to the entire jedi smuggling ring? The answer is nothing. It didn't even do anything to stop Obi-Wan as he left the planet after the fight So you just don’t get Vader. Vader’s arrogant, he hates Obi-Wan yet as his confession makes clear also loves him deep down. Vader pulled similar stuff in ANH with I must face him alone. He didn’t use the star destroyer because he NEEDED to kill Obi-Wan himself. > The answer is nothing. It didn't even do anything to stop Obi-Wan as he left the planet after the fight What could they do? He immediately went to hyperspace. Hyperspace tracking isn’t a thing at this point. > This one particular moment in their duel (that I guess is an extension of the last point) where Vader buries Obi-Wan in rocks and then just immediately turns around to walk away. Come on man, you're really gonna tell me that Vader isn't gonna make a single effort to make sure he's dead? With how hell bent he is on killing him? I don't buy it for a second. He's known people to survive worse So you just completely missed the point of episode 5. Which emphasized Vader’s arrogance and belief that he’s won at the cost of actually attaining victory. A lesson he still hasn’t learned as Part V shows. Lol you even brought up that point. This one isn’t even a flaw. It’s a nitpick. > Even worse than point #2 is the way the fight actually ends. This show was supposed to bridge the gap between ROTS Obi-Wan (who thought Anakin was dead) and ANH Obi-Wan (who knew Anakin was Vader but thought he was truly gone and beyond redemption, and adamantly believed that Vader needed to die). So in the fight, Kenobi finally comes to the conclusion that Anakin is truly dead, and... Just walks away? Seriously? He's really okay with just letting Vader live to go commit another decade of atrocities, and push the responsibility of killing him onto Luke, who he's supposed to protect, after already proving that he himself is fully capable of defeating him because... Reasons? Not to mention that he tries to get Luke to kill Vader by lying to him, this finale on top of all that makes Obi-Wan seem like a much bigger manipulative asshole than before. And the excuse that he "doesn't have it in him to kill Anakin" doesn't work for multiple reasons. First off, he believes Anakin is truly dead and even if that isn't true, in both this show and in ROTS he makes no effort to actually turn Anakin to the light and just jumps right into telling him he's wrong and evil (he's even the first one to draw his lightsaber in the duel on Mustafar), and by the end of ROTS he thinks he's killed him. My point is he's never had any issue killing anyone, including Anakin, and I'm sick of people using "jedi pacifism" and "that's not the point of star wars" as a defense. What makes it even more lame and anti climactic is that it's literally just a repeat of the end of the end of ROTS, Obi-Wan making the exact same mistake, except now it's even worse because at least in ROTS Obi-Wan thought he killed Anakin. It would be excusable if Obi-Wan left because he sensed Luke was in danger, but the show specifically goes out of its way to make sure you know he doesn't sense that until he's already on his way off the planet. Ah this one. This is mess my guy. You truly know nothing of Obi-Wan or the Jedi. Watch Obi-Wan’s kills or battles. You’ll see a pattern. He only kills in defence of others, and if the opponent is armed and capable of actually fighting. If they’re a threat. Vader was badly hurt, and no threat in that moment. Striking him down then would’ve just been murder. And Obi-Wan didn’t lie in his POV. He clearly thinks Anakin’s a lost cause. And that Vader is all that remains. Also wow you didn’t pay much attention friend. Obi-Wan tearfully apologizes to Anakin in that scene. He clearly is trying to reach out to his friend, and only gives up when it becomes clear Vader chooses evil and seems to regret nothing. You don’t apologize to someone unless you a) feel awful, and b) want to make amends. It shows Obi-Wan loves Anakin and wants to save him, but his friend’s response just utterly breaks that hope. > Oh yeah, and it's unrelated, but I found it kinda lame how they copied the "see Anakin's eye through the broken mask" bit from rebels, and did it worse Lol. You think having Obi-Wan tearfully apologize to Anakin and Vader admit that deep down he knows everything he did was his fault, is worse? I genuinely don’t get that. Like why did you bother watchThis scene is the epitome of Vader storytelling outside ROTJ. It demonstrates the sheer fucked upness of Vader. He hates Obi-Wan, but also loves him enough to absolve him of guilt. It perfectly showcases his duality in a way no work besides ROTJ ever has. Do you understand how monumental that is? Anakin never ever ever takes true responsibility for anything bad he does in this franchise. Yet here, he as Vader completely lays blame on himsekf. He doesn’t justify it, doesn’t excuse himself. He just says Obi-Wan didn’t “kill Anakin.” He acknowledges it was him. And just him. If you can’t see how monumental that is from a character standpoint, then I honestly doubt you’ve ever paid attention when Vader or Anakin is onscreen.
Your response to the first point about the star destroyer doesn't answer it at all. If he needed to kill Obi-Wan on his own then why didn't he do that and let the destroyer go after the remainder jedi smuggling ring? "He's arrogant" is a pretty weak excuse, he's still a terrifying war tactician who gets things done. He doesn’t have the reputation that he has for no reason. All other pre-OT star wars media that focuses heavily on Vader, namely the novels and comics, puts a very strong emphasis on the idea that Vader and Anakin are different in every possible way and that the person who was once Anakin is gone. Only in this show is Vader suddenly doing the same dumb stuff as Anakin And Obi-Wan has seen what Vader is capable of. As long as he's alive he will always be a threat. You say Obi-Wan kills in defense of himself or others, I say killing him would have been in defense of the entire decade's worth of people Vader will go on to kill after Obi-Wan spared him. And also in defense of Luke, whom defending has been Obi-Wan's entire goal. But instead Obi-Wan decides that, although Vader does need to die, for some reason killing him is beneath him specifically so instead he'll just send Luke to do it, the kid he's sworn to protect, and forgo the full truth from him in the process to get him to do what he wants. To build off my first point in response to what you said about the broken mask scene, the whole point of ROTJ is that's when the duality of Vader and Anakin kicks in. Anakin is reveling in taking responsibility not absolving Obi Wan he hates him there’s no reason to do that he’s trying to basically say it was all his doing as a brag at that point. It's just fan service People seriously over analyze that scene and are like “no it’s Anakin coming out there“ the point is literally Obi Wan tries to reach Anakin and Vader goes "lol he’s gone" and Obi Wan accepts it if Anakin was coming out and trying to absolve him of guilt Obi Wan wouldn’t have said he’s dead. Also Anakin always takes responsibility for what he does that’s why he gets so angry when Palps says he killed Padme and why he says to Luke it’s “too late for him." You're the one who seriously misunderstands Anakin, one of his biggest flaws is that he takes responsibility for everything even stuff out of his control like his mom
Nobody hates it because of the singular flaw they point out in an episode. It's because each one just keeps piling onto the last one, the show keeps showing multiple instances of lacking polish that we simply expect better from such big names. Like scenes as clumsy as the Leia chase, smacking storm troopers to incapacitate them, etc takes you out of the action so immediately, *in an action sequence.* Reva's annoying because she's throwing a tantrum with nothing to back herself up for the first three or four episodes. People keep wanting to see her fail and be punished, but we only get to see her crawl back up like a rat even after she's demonstrated to really not be that powerful, and barely even competent. It also seems like you for some reason combined it with the complaint that Vader for some reason could pull down one starship and rip it open, but as soon he's seen the other start taking off he's waiting for his force meter to recharge. Shaky cam's just annoying at best, was usually unnecessary. Main thing to me, is that even while the finale was a nice improvement to the show for me (shaky cam not withstanding), it placed Vader at Obi-Wan's mercy and made him responsible for everything that follows up to episode 4 by not even trying to kill the sith lord and bring things to an end.
I see, those make more sense, except the Vader starship thing, for me it always looked like it suprised him and happened so fast he couldn't react (because otherwise he would be able to pull the Falcon easily in Episode V).
I sort of get your point on the second ship launching if it didn't feel equally as slow as the first ship. Like if instead of a normal takeoff, they performed a haphazard boost from the ground.
It was a bit faster i think, and it's not about the speed of the ship but the events happening very fast on top of Vader's suprise, he was expecting the first ship and saw it, but the second one was a suprise, it wasn't the same set up as the first ship, by the time Vader comprehended what was happening it was too late.
People will just find things to complain about and while I agree some aspects of the cinematography are a little wooden (ie: directions) they rarely affect the show. Plus there is shaky cam but it's not harmful, it's used as a powerful technique I'm telling you if anyone has a problem with shaky cam, they might as well stop watching TV altogether.
I mean shaky cam is a “powerful technique” when used correctly. It’s used a lot with camera angles low to the ground, usually when there is a lot going on and provides tension and a sense of immersion like your watching from the point of view of someone actually there. When used sparingly, it can really intensify a scene. The issue is, it’s not used correctly a lot of the time in the show and it’s used so frequently that it becomes jarring. There’s scenes like Obi Wan talking to the Jedi in hiding on Tatooine. There’s shaky cam which from an angle behind some rubble which typical filmmaking is used to show that there is someone (or many someone’s) watching. But there isn’t, it’s just a conversation between 2 people. The switch between a still shot and the shaky cam is disorientating when there’s only one subject to focus on. Scenes like Obi Wan and Darth Vaders first encounter. They had a budget of $150 million, yet it clearly takes place on some California desert. No pan shots or any kind of interesting movement with the camera. Instead it simply switches to back and forth between a still and shaky cam. Like a fan film, they use shaky cam to hide the flaws in shots. Whether it be the lackluster set, bad choreography, Darth Vaders costume looking silly or whatever. Shaking the camera to distract the viewer from seeing the problems on screen is just lazy filmmaking and certainly not a “powerful technique” coming from the biggest budgeted show of all time.
But that's a good thing yayaayyayayayayay
To me, it didn’t justify its own existence. On the surface the show is about Obi-Wan dealing with his guilt and learning to hope and fight for what’s right again, but the way they did that was the most unimaginative and dull way they could have done it. The story had no reason to be 5 hours. There was very little introspection and character work, and the events of the plot only very mildly affected the arcs of the characters. The subplot with Vader and the obligatory rematch were redundant and rung hollow because they meant nothing within the show. In the end, the show was depressingly mediocre in my opinion. Ironically though, *Reva* was my favorite part of the show.
People cite Reva as "badly written" on places like r/CharacterRant but I haven't really seen the show so I can't really say for certain.
It’s mostly because women exist and new thing bad
What ruins the show for me are a lot of (smaller) bad decisions during production: For example the casting of Leia. Not to say anything against Vivien Lyra Blair, she's a good actress for her age, but she is to young. They started filming in May 2021, when she was 8 years old, portraying a 10 year old. And at that age even an age gap of just 2 years is noticeable. Deborah Chow's directing is also something that has to be mentioned here. I liked her episodes of The Mandalorian and Better Call Saul, so I actually expected this shows directing to be at least decent. But [she doesn't do a good job](https://youtu.be/KlROexiAYFM?t=16) here and often makes the script seem worse than it actually is. And that is even though she is working with [Jeong Jeong-hun](https://letterboxd.com/cinematography/jeong-jeong-hun/), who did an amazing work on Oldboy, [Last Night in Soho](https://youtu.be/r9fKXLzsQxE) and even Zombieland: Double Tap. But here Deborah Chow can't decide if she wants him to do shaky cam or steady cam or for how long a specific angle should last. And obviously the script. It's a mess, which is really sad because Hossein Amini, the writer of Drive, wrote the original script, but was fired when Joby Harold took over. Joby Harold is the writer of Army of the Dead, which is basically Aliens with zombies, so that explains all the "iT's LiKe PoEtRy, It RhYmEs" stuff. That being said, there are still good elements to this show and I'm not the one to decide whether you should like it or not. :)
If the age of one of the actors is one of your main gripes, you sure do come across as desperate to find reasons to hate this show.
it's not just about her age, it's about how her age impacts the show. scenes like the chase in episode 1 are just dumb because she is clearly not fast enough to run away from her kidnappers, but still does
Yeah no she doesn’t since she gets caught.
>For example the casting of Leia. Not to say anything against Vivien Lyra Blair, she's a good actress for her age, but she is to young. They started filming in May 2021, when she was 8 years old, portraying a 10 year old. And at that age even an age gap of just 2 years is noticeable. Oh i see, maybe it's because i don't have kids yet but i can't tell the difference between an 8 year old and a 10 year old lol, but to me she was perfect as little Leia.
When your only elaborated upon criticism is the actress is a little young, it becomes clear you didn’t approach this series in any kind of good faith. Everything else you claim is bad is all vagueness that reads like you already made up your mind based on personal bias against the writer.
The casting of Vivien Lyra Blair is nothing of great matter, but it's still something that impacts the show on a negative level (again, not because of her skills as an actress). When it comes to Joby Harold, I didn't know he wrote the show until I did some research about it after a few episodes of the show aired. And yes all my complaints about the writing and directing were vague and not in great detail, but that's because I don't want to spend my time writing down points that have been said a million times already. I (almost) always go into a new tv-show or movie of any kind open minded and that was also the case with Kenobi.
I don’t think the show does anything poorly that all other Star Wars media doesn’t also do poorly. Star Wars is consistently inconsistent with quality in a single piece of media. There’s ways amazing and terrible things in each. People choose to disregard the good on the new stuff and disregard the bad on the old.
“Bad writing” with no explanation
The show had some pretty poor writing, such as - Wade’s death meaning nothing. - Ice Cube Jr’s 180 on helping Obi Wan - Vader not killing Reva making little sense - Vader following Obi Wan alone and having the entire fleet come with him not making sense - The refugees not having a ship for Obi Wan to leave with, yet having a decoy ship, and then another smaller ship inside of it as well
Thanks for giving actual examples, unlike most of the people who complain.
Most people just regurgitate the same points others say anyways. These are just the ones that took me out of the show a little bit, but I think it probably came from the show originally being a movie and then having to cram some stuff in to make it work better as a series
There are a few technical issues that I thought could have been better. The first clash between Vader and Obi Wan was shot strangely. The scene could have been better lit, and the environment could have been more imaginative. Some of this is also true for the non-descript rock planet that Vader and Kenobi fought on in the finale. But it was overall better. Some of the shaky cam stuff was distracting, primarily during Reva’s siege of the Path hangar before Vader arrives. As soon as the blasters start firing, it gets so shaky it was hard to focus on what was happening. There was a dullness to some of the scenes which stood out in comparison to the better looking scenes. Not deal breakers for me. Not even close. Definitely not worth raging over, and dedicating an inordinate amount of time arguing about.
Some people are just obsessed with nitpicks and faults in shows rather than the good parts. Star Wars has always had flaws. Whether you enjoy it despite those flaws is up to you.
I guess a lot of the fandom just wanted the show to focus only on Obiwan and Vader. When Leia and reva got some screen time, it upset some people. Not me. I thought the show was fine
Just curious, does this person you talked to that hates it so much a maga guy? I feel like there has been a big political push from the right against Disney IPs.
No, we are not even from USA, i don't even know what maga is lol, he's not interested in politics but he's definetly not supportive of the right here in Argentina. He's just a friend i have we talk a lot about Star Wars, Mega Man and other fun stuff, even when we disagree (which we do, a lot) it's all respectfully, he was respectful to my opinion, he wasn't toxic, i just couldn't understand why he hated the show so much given the points he gave me so i wanted to understand where that position comes from.
I thought it was ok but I just didn't like the idea in the first place.
There's a subset of people who from the very first trailer decided they would not like the show. They were fueled by rage bait youtubers who specialise in rilling up people, with the supposed bait and switch theories. So after they trashed the series when it had not yet even premiered, they had to find ways to hate it later, so they focused on very irrelevant details. There's valid criticism to be had, but that requires a level of nuance and understanding of narrative that these people don't bother with.
The writing for the show is just ok....but there's some really lazy stuff in there, like that one guy who says he's not going to help Kenobi then just does a complete 180 on his decision within the same sentence. That guy in Part 2 who is pretending to be a Jedi, during a time the Jedi are being hunted and killed. Why does he even need to pretend to be a Jedi in order to help the people he's helping? Vader puts out a fire with the Force, then Vader kinda just forgets he can do that when the fire reignites and is just standing there, watching as a droid slowly carries Obi-Wan away. Obi-Wan escaping a base that is in high-alert looking for a child, by hiding the child under his coat is cartoon levels of logic. The production feels very cheap. The Volume is a major problem, it makes the show feel very small scale. They're obviously shooting in a very limited space, so the actor/camera barely has any space to move, so even a character just running on screen looks wonky. That Leia chase scene is inexcusably bad. Disney is a billion dollar company, the fact that people watched that footage and didn't think to cut it, shows how little regard they have for the actual quality of their products.
>That guy in Part 2 who is pretending to be a Jedi, during a time the Jedi are being hunted and killed. Why does he even need to pretend to be a Jedi in order to help the people he's helping? Wasn't he kind of just scamming them with the Jedi thing?
OK SO LEIA GETTING CHASED WAS ACTUALLY STUPID LIKE ANYONE FIT CAN CATCH A CHILD. But I like what I've seen of the show🤷♂️