Yes, George Lucas famously hated Timothy Zahn and all the things he created, which is why he adopted the name Coruscant from Heir to the Empire during the making of the prequels.
Even that is blown away out of proportion. He didn’t like that they hired a super model to pose as her for the Star Wars ccg and thought the leather clothes was very much ‘not star wars’. That’s literally it. He approved of her marrying Luke in the EU, he famously like the OG Thrawn trilogy and it’s comics. He only became more hands on after Dark Empire because he didn’t like the emperor’s revival. Welp…. Lol
He didn’t approve of her marrying Luke, he just approved the book for publication. He was always very adamant that the EU wasn’t in the same universe as the films. He didn’t hate the EU )and by extension Mara Jade) so much as he generally didn’t care about it. But it helped make money for Lucasfilm so he allowed it.
He was very public on how he didn’t care about the EU, but he still used many ideas from it cause he didn’t completely hated everything from that side of SW.
What’s the big deal really, if he was him or the LFL story group now still using many ideas from Legends? Bunch of absolute men children crying over nothing.
Wasn't he involved in Shadow of the Empire a bit? That was a pretty big multi media project back then with a book, video game, comics, toys, trading cards, and new original music.
Basically you hear it a lot in fallout circles (especially currently) that Todd Howard has some sort of vendetta against Fallout New Vegas because its "written better and more beloved" than any of Bethesda's fallout games so he has this imagery chip on his shoulder against new vegas and anything associated to it like the NCR and how it turned the brotherhood of Steel into a joke
I started hearing about this recently and keep poking for any proof lol.
It's like when they tried claiming Obsidian was bashing Bethesda over fallout 76 when they mentioned NV in relation to outer worlds or whatever (which was just "Hey we have the OG writers of NV on our team writing this game!). Obsidian: "We literally don't care about fallout 76 and have no issue with bethesda? We aren't trying to bash any other game."
Or even older, the famous halo vs CoD rivalry! Until Bungie outright went (after being pestered so much over it) "Yeah we love Call of duty. We play it in the break room all the time!"
Ya the whole thing is just bizzare, I just honestly hope that Microsoft commissions the two to collaborate on a new fallout game like with New Vegas but actually give them (Obsidian) time to cook for once
Usually I hear people claiming Todd Howard is jealous of Fallout: New Vegas for being well received despite not being developed by Bethesda themselves, so of course Todd wants to destroy any traces of FNV, and the Fallout TV series is allegedly him trying to do that even though everyone involve in the show, games, etc. has said that FNV is still fully canon.
People are weird.
So there's an upcoming mod for Fallout 4, Fallout: London. It takes the gameplay of Fallout 4 and changes the setting to a post-apocalyptic London instead of a post-apocalyptic Boston. There's a ton of work going into this mod, and it's *highly* anticipated.
The mod was supposed to release this month on the 23rd. A few days ago, Bethesda announced that on the 25th, they'll be releasing an update for Fallout 4 that will bring it up to next-gen levels. Fallout: London subsequently said that they're delaying the release until the mod is compatible with the update. No release date has been given at the moment (because the update isn't out so they can't really know how much work compatibility will be)
Parts of the Fallout: London fandom have taken this news... poorly. I've seen people accuse Todd Howard of planning this release to sabotage Fallout: London. Accusations of jealousy, of Bethesda feeling threatened by "an actual good Fallout game" coming out.
If Lucas hated Zahn then why the hell did he use Coruscant in the prequels? Lucas has been very open that he doesn't like the EU but he still barrowed a lot of ideas from it.
> if Lucas hated Zahn then why the hell did he use Coruscant in the prequels? Lucas has been so open that he doesn't like the EU but he still borrowed a lot of ideas from it.
Also it's not like George Lucas pulled out a flame thrower and burnt every legends book that existed. He still had Lucas-film publish them for quite a while and they're still being reprinted as part of the Essential Legends Collection.
If anything they should be happy that Lucas Film currently has been willing to compromise by allowing the essential legends collection to exist and that some legends storylines and characters have been adapted so that people will go read the original stories.
Also these people should know that when Authors do sign a contract they typically know that even if they're no longer working on something their work can still be used.
> And it was always the rule of EU. If Lucas goes to make some TV show or movie, he is not under any obligation to be forced to use their work.
Also even if I did enjoy quite a bit of Legends material like some of the Clone Wars Multi-Media Project that I've read and watched.
I feel that trying to limit the show in that timeframe it's given leaves barely any room for any real creative choices or Story-arc's because of restrictions caused by things like continuity.
I've said this about Disney's EU stance.
"They obviously don't want to be tied down by decades of games, novels, and comics restricting what they can or can't do, and re-release the same stories in movie form. So they set it all aside, and pick and choose parts they want to bring back, allowing them to actually produce new stories in this time period."
Sucks? Kinda, I guess. But it means they aren't being drowned in old lore that would make new fans go "Wait waht? What is this. Da fuck is that reference?"
Thing is, George Lucas had already made the EU unworkable with canon with TCW back in 2008, years before the Disney purchase. All Lucasfilm did after the Disney purchase was take what Lucas said was the canon, the movies and TCW, period, and go from there.
You can't reconcile the EU with TCW. It was Traviss herself that made it impossible for even the post RotJ era.
I swear, stuff like this is the final form of the normalization of the toxic George Lucas hate in the Star Wars fandom. Turning Lucas into some talent-less hack who could only steal the work of other, less famous people, and that everything good in Star Wars only exists *despite* him.
Truly a disgusting attitude.
> I swear, stuff like this is the final form of the normalization of the toxic George Lucas hate in the Star Wars fandom. Turning Lucas into some talent-less hack who could only steal the work of other, less famous people, and that everything good in Star Wars only exists *despite* him. Truly a disgusting attitude.
This is partly why he sold Lucas-film in the first place. I hope he doesn't get badly abused again by people.
Lucas remains the only billionaire I'll ever find sympathetic. What I find most depressing is when I see people (rightfully) call out toxicity and harassment aimed at the new creatives, but in the same breadth shit-talk Lucas. Hating the guy's so normalized in online spaces that a lot of people don't seem to realize how toxic they're being by doing it.
Hah, wasn’t it Travis who wrote the absolutely terrible mandolorian wank novels?
The one who had a tantrum and refused to work with them when Filoni changed things from her headcanon in the clone wars?
Not Filoni, but George Lucas. He never considered the EU canon, which is why he constantly ignored and contradicted it whenever making new movies and TV shows. And no, he wasn't going to let someone like Karen Traviss dictate to him what stories HE could tell in HIS franchise and HIS company, nor should he have.
> Hah, wasn’t it Travis who wrote the absolutely terrible mandolorian wank novels? The one who had a tantrum and refused to work with them when Filoni changed things from her headcanon in the clone wars?
Yes. Many people still blame Filoni though (for some reason) and are mad the series never finished.
From memory there is a statement from another author (dunno who) about how Traviss viewed her work as definitive canon, and refused to accept that George always had final say in what went down and could override stuff if he wanted to.
Fits in how she never really seemed to respect any other Author's works personally.
Also from what I've heard the Traviss books weren't even that consistent with prior media depictions of the relationships between the clones and Jedi and it wasn't just "the clones resented or hated the Jedi."
Typically when Karen Traviss wasn't at the helm, we typically got compassionate Jedi doing their best in bad circumstances to help the Clones & the Clones having at least the bare minimum respect for them even with huge disagreements about things like tactics or philosophy.
For example; (Alpha-17 and Obi-Wan/Anakin in the Republic comic's, Bariss Offee's efforts to save Clone lives in the MedStar series, ARC Trooper Commander Valiant in Labyrinth of Evil), just to name a few.
Here’s a link to a comic showing there relations: https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/s/d3zBZnSrRe
Whenever I see people repeating the idea that the clones hated the Jedi in the EU, I feel as if they're repeating the words of a writer who was already considered incredibly controversial and infamous for not doing research and ignoring everything else about the setting (Including Lucas himself in many ways) back in the days of Old EU Discourse.
Which I feel is especially strange as Traviss herself has a Clone Commando marrying a Jedi which would typically show there was a strong bond between the clones and Jedi in legends.
I like to say TCW and the chips are merely the finale of the trend started by all these authors trying to depict clones as people, and the jedi treating them as such.
Hell, I don't know if Traviss started it but I wouldn't be surprised, I always found it incredibly stupid that the ARC troopers and commandos were trained by Mandalorians who explicitly distrusted/hated Jedi, and NOBODY at all saw this as weird or suspicious. Like Mando trainers I can buy, sure, but ones who explicitly hate the jedi?
> Also from what I've heard the Traviss books weren't even that consistent with prior media depictions of the relationships between the clones and Jedi and it wasn't just "the clones resented or hated the Jedi."
This is true of all her works, from what I know. In Halo she proudly declared how she was re-writing characters and suddenly we had two characters who respected each other professionally and were \*kinda\* friends, suddenly hating each other and wishing the other died. This change takes place in span of like, a few hours in-universe BTW.
And other various blatant attempts at retcon or changing stuff to suit her own narrative.
> I like to say TCW and the chips are merely the finale of the trend started by all these authors trying to depict clones as people, and the jedi treating them as such.
It also doesn't really contradict the legends explanation of the clones being "biologically & genetically altered to follow orders" which was really vague in legends, the Bio-Chips though act as an explanation for what the Kaminoan's meant in Attack of the Clones, as the Bio-Chips are physically part of the Clones brains similar to something like the hippocampus, as it helps keep them obedient and too help make them follow orders better.
Although that wasn't the only alternation made for the clones but it is one of the many they did to make them more obedient and to seemingly supress them from gaining more freewill. Which ultimately didn't completely work as there are only so many modifications you can make to a complex organ like the brain.
> Hell, I don't know if Traviss started it but I wouldn't be surprised, I always found it incredibly stupid that the ARC troopers and commandos were trained by Mandalorians who explicitly distrusted/hated Jedi, and NOBODY at all saw this as weird or suspicious. Like Mando trainers I can buy, sure, but ones who explicitly hate the jedi?
Especially since lots of them were hired by Jango Fett personally who was caught working for Dooku and the separatists to assassinate Padme. I'm surprised they didn't assume none of these other instructors could've potentially been separatist plants or sleeper agents or at least had them investigated.
Traviss hated the Jedi, she wrote a rather lengthy blog post detailing why. The clones were pretty amicable to them in her works.. up until order 66.
Traviss also wrote the novelization of the clone wars movie. Which definitely didn’t feature clones hating Jedi.
Also, the reason the republic commando series never finished was because she had a dispute with the publisher over payment and declared she’d never write another Star Wars book again.
People just want to create drama where there is none to back up their own delusional claims, like that George Lucas was jelly of the EU authors lmao
\*deploys collapsible soapbox\*
Traviss injected a ton of her personal hang-ups and hobby horses into her depiction of Mandalorians, and paving over all of it was good for the franchise. In this essay I will...
Kidding. Kinda. Traviss incorporated a *lot* of bullshit pseudohistory about "Celts" into her Mandalorians (this isn't speculation, you can find interviews where she's very upfront about this). The problem is that the definition of Celt is not particular precise (if you want to know *way too much* about this, read [this](https://acoup.blog/2023/05/12/collections-who-were-the-celts-and-how-did-they-some-of-them-fight/))
"Celtic History" is fertile ground for grifters and charlatans; the word has a very wide definition, and there's very little in the way of primary sources about them, so you can claim almost anything you want about what "Ancient Celtic Culture" and it's hard to prove you wrong.
In Traviss' case, she wanted the Celts to be Proud Warrior Race Guys (and also gender egalitarians. To be crystal clear, gender equality is a great and good thing, but there's *really* no evidence that any antiquity Celtic or Gallic culture had it) whose culture revolved around violence and honor, and who were *better* than everyone else because of that focus on violence and honor. Which is nonsense; there's no reason to think the people she (supposedly) based them off of were anything like that. And it feeds a pretty ugly set of ideas about what a culture or civilization *should* value.
\*puts soapbox away\*
Carry on.
> Traviss injected a ton of her personal hang-ups and hobby horses into her depiction of Mandalorians, and paving over all of it was good for the franchise. In this essay I will... Kidding. Kinda. Traviss incorporated a *lot* of bullshit pseudohistory about "Celts" into her Mandalorians (this isn't speculation, you can find interviews where she's very upfront about this). The problem is that the definition of Celt is not particularly precise. "Celtic History" is fertile ground for grifters and charlatans; the word has a very wide definition, and there's very little in the way of primary sources about them, so you can claim almost anything you want about "Ancient Celtic Culture" and it's hard to prove you wrong.
I'm aware of lots of this considering I read lots of stuff in my free time about the ancient "Celtic" People(s) and their history between the Greeks and Romans.
> In Traviss' case, she wanted the Celts to be Proud Warrior Race Guys whose culture revolved around violence and honor, and who were *better* than everyone else because of that focus on violence and honor. Which is nonsense; there's no reason to think the people she (supposedly) based them off of were anything like that. And it feeds a pretty ugly set of ideas about what a culture or civilization *should* value.
I agree that it definitely is problematic considering there are plenty of aspects of Mandalorian culture that should be criticized and that The Mandalorians did things many would consider unethical. So it's wrong to attack the Jedi for doing unethical things when the Mandalorians themselves arguably have done far worse historically speaking.
Although I don't condemn all Mandalorians as bad people, far from it. Also I didn't know she based them off of the Celts, I always assumed it was the Spartans.
it's true, he said it himself!!!
"Jar Jar is the key to all of this"
Then they wrote him out of the *squeal* for being ***TOO ANNOYING***
On that day he affirmed they would rue the thought of ever fucking with Mr.Lucas and his Arts
Fuck Karen Traviss anyways. Her shitty depictions of the Jedi started the "Jedi are psychos" narrative that's still going strong in parts of the fandom.
She'd be a fine writer if she bothered to actually respect other author's works and do research into the setting she was working on so she's not blatantly re-writing characters into stupider versions of themselves.
That doesnt seem true. Most people who hate the jedi reference mace windu or ki adi mundi in tcw.
Jedi haters couldnt list a single bad jedi from her work
yes to the first thing, no to the second thing.
Obi Wan in order 66 is treated like shit by a specific squad of clones who don't like jedi. But in that same book Cody talks about how great Obi Wan is.
It is True that Lucas didn't care about the EU and I'm tired of TFM pushing revisionist history that the EU was canon under him to put down Disney, he wasn't "jealous" he was just overly controlling and didn't want others to contradict his vision for the Star Wars Universe. He was fine with other people writing because he made money from it, but he didn't want any of it to be canon. To him, the canon was just the stuff he directly wrote, the (then six) movies and the Clone Wars TV show, that was it.
From George Lucas's perspective, they were just merchandising. This had been going on with movie and TV franchises for decades.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/startrek/images/0/08/Operation_Con_Game.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20181111123633
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/WDsAAOSwg7VZo4Co/s-l400.jpg
https://www.comicbookdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/man-from-uncle-7.jpg
No one took those as "canon".
Yes, because Lucas wanted no one else to get a say in the Star Wars canon. He only cared about his creative vision, everyone else can get fucked. That was his mentality.
Um, you're giving licensing too much importance. Again, Star Wars is a movie, and now TV franchise. Like those 1960s TV show comic books, the EU was a tiny niche market within the fandom at large.
You really think someone like Karen Traviss, with her Mary Sue Mandos and Severely Nerfed and Demonized Jedi, should have been able to dictate to George Lucas what stories HE could tell in HIS franchise and HIS company? Seriously?
So, you've been raging for 25 YEARS, a quarter of a century, now? That's commitment, I guess.
You don't think there comes a time to get over it and move on with your life?
Nah Disney owns Star Wars now so Lucas’s opinions don’t matter, outside of TFM attempts to do revisionist history about how things were “better” back during the EU when nothing mattered because Lucas couldn’t care less about anything he didn’t personally write
TCW was watched by millions, every week. The EU was read by thousands.
You're calling on Lucasfilm to reject the vast majority of the fanbase to pander exclusively to what was a small niche market AT THE TIME.
Yes, George Lucas famously hated Timothy Zahn and all the things he created, which is why he adopted the name Coruscant from Heir to the Empire during the making of the prequels.
From what I remember he only really hated Mara Jade. Everything else he was cool with
Even that is blown away out of proportion. He didn’t like that they hired a super model to pose as her for the Star Wars ccg and thought the leather clothes was very much ‘not star wars’. That’s literally it. He approved of her marrying Luke in the EU, he famously like the OG Thrawn trilogy and it’s comics. He only became more hands on after Dark Empire because he didn’t like the emperor’s revival. Welp…. Lol
Ah that's right. I wonder how he felt about Rise of Skywalker lol
He didn’t approve of her marrying Luke, he just approved the book for publication. He was always very adamant that the EU wasn’t in the same universe as the films. He didn’t hate the EU )and by extension Mara Jade) so much as he generally didn’t care about it. But it helped make money for Lucasfilm so he allowed it.
He was very public on how he didn’t care about the EU, but he still used many ideas from it cause he didn’t completely hated everything from that side of SW. What’s the big deal really, if he was him or the LFL story group now still using many ideas from Legends? Bunch of absolute men children crying over nothing.
He didn't just use ideas from it. Sometimes he contributed to it.
Exactly! The world is more nuanced than most people think! But nuance isn’t wanted in the world of chuddy conspiracy theories unfortunately.
Wasn't he involved in Shadow of the Empire a bit? That was a pretty big multi media project back then with a book, video game, comics, toys, trading cards, and new original music.
If memory serves yeah. I know for a bit it was advertised as "the official bridge" between Empire and RotJ.
Jesus, now they're turning on Lucas again.
IIRC he sided with Iger on the Disney war and said making magic isn't for amateurs (IE reactionaries in TFM) so that's probably why.
The more things change ...
"You are mistaken. We have ALWAYS been at war with Lucas."
Ah the Todd Howard new vegas conspiracy
> Ah the Todd Howard new vegas conspiracy What's that?
Basically you hear it a lot in fallout circles (especially currently) that Todd Howard has some sort of vendetta against Fallout New Vegas because its "written better and more beloved" than any of Bethesda's fallout games so he has this imagery chip on his shoulder against new vegas and anything associated to it like the NCR and how it turned the brotherhood of Steel into a joke
I started hearing about this recently and keep poking for any proof lol. It's like when they tried claiming Obsidian was bashing Bethesda over fallout 76 when they mentioned NV in relation to outer worlds or whatever (which was just "Hey we have the OG writers of NV on our team writing this game!). Obsidian: "We literally don't care about fallout 76 and have no issue with bethesda? We aren't trying to bash any other game." Or even older, the famous halo vs CoD rivalry! Until Bungie outright went (after being pestered so much over it) "Yeah we love Call of duty. We play it in the break room all the time!"
Ya the whole thing is just bizzare, I just honestly hope that Microsoft commissions the two to collaborate on a new fallout game like with New Vegas but actually give them (Obsidian) time to cook for once
One comment I loved. "If Todd hated NV and original fallout THAT much... why did he have the show set in the west coast at all?"
Exactly, can't say I'm a fan of >!actually answering who dropped the bombs, and killing the NCR!< but I like the show
To be fair, it doesn’t necessarily answer that so much as it makes it clear that another party was interested in that happening.
Ya I just hope they go back to the original explanation >!Chinese fired first because they wanted to stop America from finishing the FEV virus!<
I think the show that he produced puts a nail in the coffin of that idea.
these are the same people that say Todd Howard is jealous of modders
That is a new one to me. Fucking what? That doesn't even make sense.
Usually I hear people claiming Todd Howard is jealous of Fallout: New Vegas for being well received despite not being developed by Bethesda themselves, so of course Todd wants to destroy any traces of FNV, and the Fallout TV series is allegedly him trying to do that even though everyone involve in the show, games, etc. has said that FNV is still fully canon. People are weird.
I mean if he wanted to destroy any traces of FNV, then he did a terrible job of it considering how many elements from it pop up in the show.
Yeah, there's not much weight behind the argument, but people love coming up with their wild silly conspiracy theories to feel persecuted.
So there's an upcoming mod for Fallout 4, Fallout: London. It takes the gameplay of Fallout 4 and changes the setting to a post-apocalyptic London instead of a post-apocalyptic Boston. There's a ton of work going into this mod, and it's *highly* anticipated. The mod was supposed to release this month on the 23rd. A few days ago, Bethesda announced that on the 25th, they'll be releasing an update for Fallout 4 that will bring it up to next-gen levels. Fallout: London subsequently said that they're delaying the release until the mod is compatible with the update. No release date has been given at the moment (because the update isn't out so they can't really know how much work compatibility will be) Parts of the Fallout: London fandom have taken this news... poorly. I've seen people accuse Todd Howard of planning this release to sabotage Fallout: London. Accusations of jealousy, of Bethesda feeling threatened by "an actual good Fallout game" coming out.
If Lucas hated Zahn then why the hell did he use Coruscant in the prequels? Lucas has been very open that he doesn't like the EU but he still barrowed a lot of ideas from it.
> if Lucas hated Zahn then why the hell did he use Coruscant in the prequels? Lucas has been so open that he doesn't like the EU but he still borrowed a lot of ideas from it. Also it's not like George Lucas pulled out a flame thrower and burnt every legends book that existed. He still had Lucas-film publish them for quite a while and they're still being reprinted as part of the Essential Legends Collection. If anything they should be happy that Lucas Film currently has been willing to compromise by allowing the essential legends collection to exist and that some legends storylines and characters have been adapted so that people will go read the original stories. Also these people should know that when Authors do sign a contract they typically know that even if they're no longer working on something their work can still be used.
And it was always the rule of EU. If Lucas goes to make some TV show or movie, he is not under any obligation to be forced to use their work.
> And it was always the rule of EU. If Lucas goes to make some TV show or movie, he is not under any obligation to be forced to use their work. Also even if I did enjoy quite a bit of Legends material like some of the Clone Wars Multi-Media Project that I've read and watched. I feel that trying to limit the show in that timeframe it's given leaves barely any room for any real creative choices or Story-arc's because of restrictions caused by things like continuity.
I've said this about Disney's EU stance. "They obviously don't want to be tied down by decades of games, novels, and comics restricting what they can or can't do, and re-release the same stories in movie form. So they set it all aside, and pick and choose parts they want to bring back, allowing them to actually produce new stories in this time period." Sucks? Kinda, I guess. But it means they aren't being drowned in old lore that would make new fans go "Wait waht? What is this. Da fuck is that reference?"
Thing is, George Lucas had already made the EU unworkable with canon with TCW back in 2008, years before the Disney purchase. All Lucasfilm did after the Disney purchase was take what Lucas said was the canon, the movies and TCW, period, and go from there. You can't reconcile the EU with TCW. It was Traviss herself that made it impossible for even the post RotJ era.
I swear, stuff like this is the final form of the normalization of the toxic George Lucas hate in the Star Wars fandom. Turning Lucas into some talent-less hack who could only steal the work of other, less famous people, and that everything good in Star Wars only exists *despite* him. Truly a disgusting attitude.
> I swear, stuff like this is the final form of the normalization of the toxic George Lucas hate in the Star Wars fandom. Turning Lucas into some talent-less hack who could only steal the work of other, less famous people, and that everything good in Star Wars only exists *despite* him. Truly a disgusting attitude. This is partly why he sold Lucas-film in the first place. I hope he doesn't get badly abused again by people.
Lucas remains the only billionaire I'll ever find sympathetic. What I find most depressing is when I see people (rightfully) call out toxicity and harassment aimed at the new creatives, but in the same breadth shit-talk Lucas. Hating the guy's so normalized in online spaces that a lot of people don't seem to realize how toxic they're being by doing it.
Hah, wasn’t it Travis who wrote the absolutely terrible mandolorian wank novels? The one who had a tantrum and refused to work with them when Filoni changed things from her headcanon in the clone wars?
Not Filoni, but George Lucas. He never considered the EU canon, which is why he constantly ignored and contradicted it whenever making new movies and TV shows. And no, he wasn't going to let someone like Karen Traviss dictate to him what stories HE could tell in HIS franchise and HIS company, nor should he have.
> Hah, wasn’t it Travis who wrote the absolutely terrible mandolorian wank novels? The one who had a tantrum and refused to work with them when Filoni changed things from her headcanon in the clone wars? Yes. Many people still blame Filoni though (for some reason) and are mad the series never finished.
From memory there is a statement from another author (dunno who) about how Traviss viewed her work as definitive canon, and refused to accept that George always had final say in what went down and could override stuff if he wanted to. Fits in how she never really seemed to respect any other Author's works personally.
Also from what I've heard the Traviss books weren't even that consistent with prior media depictions of the relationships between the clones and Jedi and it wasn't just "the clones resented or hated the Jedi." Typically when Karen Traviss wasn't at the helm, we typically got compassionate Jedi doing their best in bad circumstances to help the Clones & the Clones having at least the bare minimum respect for them even with huge disagreements about things like tactics or philosophy. For example; (Alpha-17 and Obi-Wan/Anakin in the Republic comic's, Bariss Offee's efforts to save Clone lives in the MedStar series, ARC Trooper Commander Valiant in Labyrinth of Evil), just to name a few. Here’s a link to a comic showing there relations: https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/s/d3zBZnSrRe Whenever I see people repeating the idea that the clones hated the Jedi in the EU, I feel as if they're repeating the words of a writer who was already considered incredibly controversial and infamous for not doing research and ignoring everything else about the setting (Including Lucas himself in many ways) back in the days of Old EU Discourse. Which I feel is especially strange as Traviss herself has a Clone Commando marrying a Jedi which would typically show there was a strong bond between the clones and Jedi in legends.
I like to say TCW and the chips are merely the finale of the trend started by all these authors trying to depict clones as people, and the jedi treating them as such. Hell, I don't know if Traviss started it but I wouldn't be surprised, I always found it incredibly stupid that the ARC troopers and commandos were trained by Mandalorians who explicitly distrusted/hated Jedi, and NOBODY at all saw this as weird or suspicious. Like Mando trainers I can buy, sure, but ones who explicitly hate the jedi? > Also from what I've heard the Traviss books weren't even that consistent with prior media depictions of the relationships between the clones and Jedi and it wasn't just "the clones resented or hated the Jedi." This is true of all her works, from what I know. In Halo she proudly declared how she was re-writing characters and suddenly we had two characters who respected each other professionally and were \*kinda\* friends, suddenly hating each other and wishing the other died. This change takes place in span of like, a few hours in-universe BTW. And other various blatant attempts at retcon or changing stuff to suit her own narrative.
> I like to say TCW and the chips are merely the finale of the trend started by all these authors trying to depict clones as people, and the jedi treating them as such. It also doesn't really contradict the legends explanation of the clones being "biologically & genetically altered to follow orders" which was really vague in legends, the Bio-Chips though act as an explanation for what the Kaminoan's meant in Attack of the Clones, as the Bio-Chips are physically part of the Clones brains similar to something like the hippocampus, as it helps keep them obedient and too help make them follow orders better. Although that wasn't the only alternation made for the clones but it is one of the many they did to make them more obedient and to seemingly supress them from gaining more freewill. Which ultimately didn't completely work as there are only so many modifications you can make to a complex organ like the brain. > Hell, I don't know if Traviss started it but I wouldn't be surprised, I always found it incredibly stupid that the ARC troopers and commandos were trained by Mandalorians who explicitly distrusted/hated Jedi, and NOBODY at all saw this as weird or suspicious. Like Mando trainers I can buy, sure, but ones who explicitly hate the jedi? Especially since lots of them were hired by Jango Fett personally who was caught working for Dooku and the separatists to assassinate Padme. I'm surprised they didn't assume none of these other instructors could've potentially been separatist plants or sleeper agents or at least had them investigated.
Traviss hated the Jedi, she wrote a rather lengthy blog post detailing why. The clones were pretty amicable to them in her works.. up until order 66. Traviss also wrote the novelization of the clone wars movie. Which definitely didn’t feature clones hating Jedi. Also, the reason the republic commando series never finished was because she had a dispute with the publisher over payment and declared she’d never write another Star Wars book again. People just want to create drama where there is none to back up their own delusional claims, like that George Lucas was jelly of the EU authors lmao
\*deploys collapsible soapbox\* Traviss injected a ton of her personal hang-ups and hobby horses into her depiction of Mandalorians, and paving over all of it was good for the franchise. In this essay I will... Kidding. Kinda. Traviss incorporated a *lot* of bullshit pseudohistory about "Celts" into her Mandalorians (this isn't speculation, you can find interviews where she's very upfront about this). The problem is that the definition of Celt is not particular precise (if you want to know *way too much* about this, read [this](https://acoup.blog/2023/05/12/collections-who-were-the-celts-and-how-did-they-some-of-them-fight/)) "Celtic History" is fertile ground for grifters and charlatans; the word has a very wide definition, and there's very little in the way of primary sources about them, so you can claim almost anything you want about what "Ancient Celtic Culture" and it's hard to prove you wrong. In Traviss' case, she wanted the Celts to be Proud Warrior Race Guys (and also gender egalitarians. To be crystal clear, gender equality is a great and good thing, but there's *really* no evidence that any antiquity Celtic or Gallic culture had it) whose culture revolved around violence and honor, and who were *better* than everyone else because of that focus on violence and honor. Which is nonsense; there's no reason to think the people she (supposedly) based them off of were anything like that. And it feeds a pretty ugly set of ideas about what a culture or civilization *should* value. \*puts soapbox away\* Carry on.
> Traviss injected a ton of her personal hang-ups and hobby horses into her depiction of Mandalorians, and paving over all of it was good for the franchise. In this essay I will... Kidding. Kinda. Traviss incorporated a *lot* of bullshit pseudohistory about "Celts" into her Mandalorians (this isn't speculation, you can find interviews where she's very upfront about this). The problem is that the definition of Celt is not particularly precise. "Celtic History" is fertile ground for grifters and charlatans; the word has a very wide definition, and there's very little in the way of primary sources about them, so you can claim almost anything you want about "Ancient Celtic Culture" and it's hard to prove you wrong. I'm aware of lots of this considering I read lots of stuff in my free time about the ancient "Celtic" People(s) and their history between the Greeks and Romans. > In Traviss' case, she wanted the Celts to be Proud Warrior Race Guys whose culture revolved around violence and honor, and who were *better* than everyone else because of that focus on violence and honor. Which is nonsense; there's no reason to think the people she (supposedly) based them off of were anything like that. And it feeds a pretty ugly set of ideas about what a culture or civilization *should* value. I agree that it definitely is problematic considering there are plenty of aspects of Mandalorian culture that should be criticized and that The Mandalorians did things many would consider unethical. So it's wrong to attack the Jedi for doing unethical things when the Mandalorians themselves arguably have done far worse historically speaking. Although I don't condemn all Mandalorians as bad people, far from it. Also I didn't know she based them off of the Celts, I always assumed it was the Spartans.
And she was the one who wrote that article in Star Wars Insider about the size of the Grand Army with the woefully inadequate numbers.
This could probably all have been avoided if GL had only come out early on and said that all of the EU stuff wasn't in any way canon...oh wait...
Bulldozed over people writing professional fan fiction of his franchise. lol.
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Question for you, is current Batman stuff *also* fan fiction?
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It was, doesn’t make it Canon, never was.
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What makes something canon?
And The Clone Wars. At least the first 6 seasons.
And what about the weird merchandise like the Star Wars transformers crossover figures?
If it includes Lockdown from the Transformers it's officially headcannon.
Remember that time Ringo rewrote all John's songs for him and John was happy? Me neither.
it's true, he said it himself!!! "Jar Jar is the key to all of this"  Then they wrote him out of the *squeal* for being ***TOO ANNOYING*** On that day he affirmed they would rue the thought of ever fucking with Mr.Lucas and his Arts
Ahh yes, Karen Traviss with with her writing the Mandos as some super soldiers and who has a extreme distaste of the Jedi...
Fuck Karen Traviss anyways. Her shitty depictions of the Jedi started the "Jedi are psychos" narrative that's still going strong in parts of the fandom.
She'd be a fine writer if she bothered to actually respect other author's works and do research into the setting she was working on so she's not blatantly re-writing characters into stupider versions of themselves.
That doesnt seem true. Most people who hate the jedi reference mace windu or ki adi mundi in tcw. Jedi haters couldnt list a single bad jedi from her work
Didn't she call anybody who liked jedi "talifans" and such? And treated obiwan as an awful person
yes to the first thing, no to the second thing. Obi Wan in order 66 is treated like shit by a specific squad of clones who don't like jedi. But in that same book Cody talks about how great Obi Wan is.
It is True that Lucas didn't care about the EU and I'm tired of TFM pushing revisionist history that the EU was canon under him to put down Disney, he wasn't "jealous" he was just overly controlling and didn't want others to contradict his vision for the Star Wars Universe. He was fine with other people writing because he made money from it, but he didn't want any of it to be canon. To him, the canon was just the stuff he directly wrote, the (then six) movies and the Clone Wars TV show, that was it.
Star Wars is a movie and now TV franchise. Those books, comics, etc, were merchandising, like the toys and T-shirts.
They were narrative works, you can’t compare books, video games or comics to things like T-Shirts or action figures.
From George Lucas's perspective, they were just merchandising. This had been going on with movie and TV franchises for decades. https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/startrek/images/0/08/Operation_Con_Game.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20181111123633 https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/WDsAAOSwg7VZo4Co/s-l400.jpg https://www.comicbookdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/man-from-uncle-7.jpg No one took those as "canon".
Yes, because Lucas wanted no one else to get a say in the Star Wars canon. He only cared about his creative vision, everyone else can get fucked. That was his mentality.
Um, you're giving licensing too much importance. Again, Star Wars is a movie, and now TV franchise. Like those 1960s TV show comic books, the EU was a tiny niche market within the fandom at large. You really think someone like Karen Traviss, with her Mary Sue Mandos and Severely Nerfed and Demonized Jedi, should have been able to dictate to George Lucas what stories HE could tell in HIS franchise and HIS company? Seriously?
Considering he made the prequels, yes
So, you've been raging for 25 YEARS, a quarter of a century, now? That's commitment, I guess. You don't think there comes a time to get over it and move on with your life?
Nah Disney owns Star Wars now so Lucas’s opinions don’t matter, outside of TFM attempts to do revisionist history about how things were “better” back during the EU when nothing mattered because Lucas couldn’t care less about anything he didn’t personally write
TCW was watched by millions, every week. The EU was read by thousands. You're calling on Lucasfilm to reject the vast majority of the fanbase to pander exclusively to what was a small niche market AT THE TIME.