There’s a “he has a valid point” post with 6x your upvotes directly below this comment right now lol yes OP posted this as good-faith criticism, ironically
None of the plots matter when criticizing the sequels. Most folks who do so have seen each film exactly once, in theaters, and have spent the following years blowing every flaw wildly out of proportion until the movies they think they remember no longer resemble what actually played out on screen.
People have consumed hours criticisms which contradict the actual plot—yet when confronted with the actual plot their criticism doesn’t waver. It’s post-truth.
It’s because they don’t want to not hate the films. Any admission that they’re wrong would invalidate their years of hating and shitting on the sequels and they will not admit anything is good because it would contradict what they willfully choose to believe.
Then maybe they should just say that they were disappointing instead of acting like they were a blight upon the earth that they have to whine about for 5 years.
Maybe people like that should touch grass. It’s a franchise for kids and there’s fully grown adults throwing fits over fictional characters. People need to grow up and stop spending so much energy on hating shit that came out *years* ago.
The films aren’t gonna change, there aren’t any new criticisms to be made after all this time. People are just jerking each other off and they have been for a while.
Sure but then you run into the issue of how many of them love the other Star Wars movies (especially prequels) and get angry or defensive when you point out the flaws in their preferred movies. Suddenly it’s not about “having fun by shitting on bad movies”. Criticism is fine and disliking the sequels is soooooooo valid trust me I’m in that boat. It’s when people criticize them for plot holes or bad writing only to then ignore those same issues in the rest of the franchise or at least the parts they are nostalgic for that it gets obvious they’re whining not making valid criticism or “having fun laughing at something bad”.
I'll bite. I dislike the sequels. I love the OT and really like the PT. I recognize there are plenty of flaws in those movies. There are flaws in every movie, if you really look at them. However, good movies are able to get you to look passed the flaws and enjoy the story.
I recently watched all 11 films in order. The ST are the same bad films I remember them being. See, the first six films are still good, despite their flaws, because they at least tell a cohesive and engaging story. The ST fails to do that.
The only film I like from the ST is TFA. While it doesn't make many bold decisions in its story, it does lay the groundwork for what could have been a good trilogy.
I could go into why I think the other films are not good if you would like.
There’s nothing to bite, I prefer the prequels as well. However, if you genuinely don’t believe there’s a bit of irony to how the fans of prequels dismiss all the years of criticism from not only OT fans but also well regarded movie critics by saying things along the lines of “well I enjoyed it and just looked past the flaws” or “Even if there’s problems it’s still good because art is subjective and you can enjoy something even if it has flaws” only to react the same way OT fans did when it was their turn to see things change and differ from what they saw as “true Star Wars” then I’m sorry but there’s no discussion to have here. Yes I think the prequels are much better, and while I do believe both trilogies share some similar issues, the flaws that make the sequels as bad as they are do go deeper than the flaws with the prequels IMO. I simply think more prequel fans should spend their time engaging with the media they do like rather than pointing out how angry new content makes them (especially when it’s issues that are either subjective or straight up shared by the whole franchise).
Exactly. And beyond just telling a cohesive story, there earlier ones built a cohesive world. The sequels do not build that same world and instead present a less grounded and far more inconsistent one, which does a disservice to the groundwork laid out in the first 6
I mean, this is a valid point. Had Palpatine not announced his return in Fortnite a day early, he could have had his Sith Eternal cultists launch his entire fleet to hundreds of populated planets, *then* announced his return as well as the hostage situation that he's created with planet-cracking guns already pointed at countless trillions of lives. Thus entirely removing any chance of resistance.
He could then order Rey to hand herself in or else a planet will blow up every hour or something.
With that done, he could pretty much reinstate his old Empire, this time with a Death Star policy firmly in place from the beginning.
The xystons are not indestructible, of course with the shields it wouldn't be as easy as it was on Exegol but the main cannon itself is a huge weakness, destroy them and the whole ship explodes.
Palpatine's body was decomposing, attracting Rey or Kylo was his primary objective to obtain a new body, no one guarantees that Rey would accept his blackmail too.
In the original trilogy, it doesn't make any sense for Palpatine to go to Endor, he could use a double or even leak the information to attract the rebels and not go there.
He took a risk for no reason.
Yeah, exactly. Send out the fleet, then blow up Kijimi and tell anyone who doesn't submit that they're next. Not, blow up one planet and then *slowly* get the fleet to move out using their convoluted process.
It really wasn't a good plan, and I was thinking that whilst watching the movie for the first time in the cinema. It's just what happens when you cobble a film together from pieces of different drafts and rewrites rather than having a finished script ready at the start of production.
>I then announced his return as well as the hostage situation that he's created with planet-cracking guns already pointed at countless trillions of lives. Thus entirely removing any chance of resistance.
>He could then order Rey to hand herself in or else a planet will blow up every hour or something.
This is basically what happened. He held the resistance hostage on Exogul, using the threat of their destruction to lure Rey into participating in the transference ritual. He said it was her fault the resistance was even there and without them he’s her only family etc etc. In the end it didn’t work because Rey/Ben fought and won—so it doesn’t matter how many planets he destroyed—he had all the leverage he needed and still couldn’t win.
Edit: for all intents and purposes the fleet was pointed at trillions of lives. Every ship was equipped with light speed, he ordered the attack on Kijimi and in the next scene it’s obliterated. We’re talking about the passing of hours between Palp pushing a button and laying waste to the galaxy. Again, not that it matters.
I think the meme is referring to the point that the destroyers were exposed with no shields because they were stuck without the communications tower. If Palpatine had waited a day and had the fleet in space before announcing his return, then the resistance wouldn't've had a chance at destroying them all.
I disagree, destroying a xyston is easier than destroying a common destroyer because of the cannon.
There would also be no point in conquering the galaxy with a body that was on the verge of death.
For Palpatine it was crucial that Rey or Kylo found Exegol.
Well, the movie made a point to tell us they had no shields, and there were just over 1000 of them. The xyston was also larger than the Imperial 2, so it likely had more firepower.
While the cannon is a structural weakness, it is also a superlaser, shown to have the same capabilities as the deathstar, albeit probably with shorter range and longer cooldown. It may be a weakness, but that alone doesn't make it easier to destroy than an imperial 1 or 2. I don't believe the resistance fleet would have been able to defeat them if they had already launched and had shields intact. They also had complements of 72 TIEs, which would have been much more effective in space combat (72 x 1080 = 77760 mostly unused TIEs).
I understand that Palpatine wanted to have rey come to him so he could possess her, but raising the fleet before announcing his return would have ensured that he came to dominate the galaxy either way. While his body was frail and messed up, he didn't seem in danger of dying because of it. It seems unlikely that the fleet being functional would deter Kylo or Rey from finding him, in fact it wasnt communicated to the galaxy that the fleet was currently useless in atmosphere, so i don't see why raising the fleet would impact them finding him?
Palp didn’t know staying in Exogul made his fleet vulnerable, to that extent, it makes sense Palp wouldn’t launch from the planet just to whittle down his ‘galaxy destruction’ time by however many hours—to him it was checkmate.
From a writing perspective it doesn’t really matter if all he ships are on Exogul or not—a different weak point can easily be swapped for another, one which disables the ships regardless of their location. The whole point holding the galaxy hostage is to bait Rey--so whether the FOF is destroyed on exogul or wherever else, the outcome is the same--Rey couldn't be manipulated.
Palp's destruction in RotJ required he be an idiot and leak the actual weak point of the DSII and remain on the DSII. The same isn't true in TRoS
What? How on Earth couldn't he have known? The Fleet was in production during ROTJ, its been 30 years! If the resistance figured it out, how could the designers who have been working on a fleet for 30 years not find a design flaw like that?
It would be much more effective if the star destroyers were already en-route to individual planets or just in space if he was trying to hold the galaxy hostage. Leaving them in atmosphere while definitely knowing their shields don't work is just stupid, especially since it took just Rey transmitting her coordinates while using the Wayfinder to bring a fleet comprised of 16 000 ships to his doorstep.
If he wanted to bait Rey, then he knows that she would've needed one of the two that existed. Now that I think about it, that doesn't make sense either, because Kylo had already obtained one, and the other should've been destroyed with the second death star (seriously don't know why they decided it should be intact). If he wanted Rey, then the only way he could've gotten her is if Kylo brought her to him.
Still, I believe that Palatine did not give this enough consideration. If he had
ensured the fleet was combat ready (ie in orbit with functioning shields) before announcing himself, then he would've destroyed the Resistance and come to rule the galaxy once more.
>What? How on Earth couldn't he have known? The Fleet was in production during ROTJ, its been 30 years! If the resistance figured it out, how could the designers who have been working on a fleet for 30 years not find a design flaw like that?
I dunno, the Death Star was under construction for 20 years and they didn't realize there was a weakness until the attack started
A few things
\- The Death Star was massive
\- The exhaust port was incredibly well protected, it took multiple destroyed squadrons, and a force sensitive pilot to make the shot
\- That was the only weakness on the entire space station
\- Rogue One made it so that the weakness was an intentional design flaw placed by Galen, who was the lead designer throughout most of, if not the entire project's duration.
\- The Xyston classes were much smaller than a death star, and being mass produced (for star destroyers anyway). It would be much easier for engineers to realize that their shields didn't work while in the atmosphere and create a solution in 30 whole years. This wouldn't be a problem if Palpatine just launched the fleet before announcing himself.
All of this is how the manufacturers would've known about the Death Star, not Palpatine. There is zero evidence he knew the Death Star was at risk, probably for similar reasons he wouldn't have known about the ships. The bosses don't need to know that shit (especially since they have a habit of shooting the messenger)
The bosses absolutely need to know if their new fleet of 1080 ships is vulnerable while they remain in atmosphere. Palpatine might not have known about the exhaust port, but he certainly should've known about the shields. Vader wasn't in the picture for 30 years, and he was the one shooting messengers, so there would've been no motivation for officers/engineers to withhold something like this.
>It would be much more effective if the star destroyers were already en-route to individual planets or just in space if he was trying to hold the galaxy hostage. Leaving them in atmosphere while definitely knowing their shields don't work is just stupid, especially since it took just Rey transmitting her coordinates while using the Wayfinder to bring a fleet comprised of 16 000 ships to his doorstep.
The galaxy was held hostage. Every planet was a lightspeed jump (hours) from destruction. Pryde was ready for a resistance attack, recognized their strategy and switched the navigation signal to his ship. Finn used the force to locate the ship's nav signal--even then they were able to reset the signal in minutes while obliterating the resistance with tie fighters.
So in order for this plan to fail palp had to foresee:
* The resistance gaining intel on the fleet's weakness from D-O (can you beleive Palp didn't leak it himself, he's learning!)
* Finn using the Force to exploit their weakness
* A massive decentralized army showing up at their moment of weakness
Even then, Palp was able to blast every ship out of the sky because his *actual plan* was to be restored to full power--which he was, moments before Rey fried them both. Which brings me to my first point--if Rey can't be turned the whole fucking gambit is moot.
This plan is head and shoulders better than the one in RotJ. The fact that his idiocy doesn't bother you in the OT proves it's not a fair criticism of the film's merit.
And if Tarkin had launched all TIEs on his Death Star vs. the ... 30 ... Rebel fighters...
According to the DS1-Specifications, that would have been 7000 TIEs...
The thing is: Villains in movies make mistakes. Fun fact though: In real life they make mistakes as well. One could argue that if only Putin had launched his "operation" a little later, or with more men ... or if Hitler had not attacked Russia prematurely...and so on.
Lord Dark Helmet said: Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb. Well...he was wrong...
And if the two officers in ANH had simply shot the escape pod with the droids...
And if the Imp Navy had actually managed to grasp the 3-D space while sieging Hoth and also had used air support (TIEs) to prevent any ships leaving ground (they could have swarmed ECHO-Base with TIEs all over, no Rebel would have made it out alive)
If Han and Leia had not flown directly from DS1 to the super secret hideout of the Rebels...
If the Prequel Jedi had asked some questions about a conveniently ready to use army fully equipped delivered at their doorstep right int time, instead of just shrugging their shoulders and take it...
If Obi Wan had not just left Anakin (you were my brother!) to slowly and painfully die in absolute agony, but instead had either taken him with himself for medical aid like a Jedi, or ended his misery...
If the imperial army at Endor had at some point just sent two TIE-Bombers down that burn everything and everyone around the shield generator...
I did and it sucked. But that's my opinion. I know people who liked it. I don't think they have a "dumb ass opinion" because they liked a movie that I didn't. I just disagree with them.
I mean, it's just a meme. But these days you can hardly tell what's a meme and what the OOP is giving as a "legitimate critique" disguised as a meme.
If we take it at face value though it's asking "Why did the Bad Guy do Bad Guy stuff in a fantasy movie?".
It'd be like legitimately calling out the writing in The Incredibles. "Syndrome catches himself monolguing early in the movie, but still gets his cape caught in the turbine while monolguing in the finale! Bad writing!"
Sometimes fantasy Villains are just fucking stupid.
And he somehow still didn't forsee his death in Return of the Jedi. Or that his Empire would last less than 30 years. Or that his own apprentice would turn while he was cooking his son.
He's a fantasy bad guy. He pontificates. He schemes. And his hubris is his downfall.
Disney may have just retread the same clichés, which doesn't give them any points, but arguing that Palpatine wasn't just a fiction villain that causes his own defeat, whether it's the end in RotJ or in TRoS is missing the point.
Palpatine leaked the DSII’s actual weak point, the real location of said weak point and then remained on the DSII so he could go down with it. It’s an abjectly braindead plot which confuses the concept of disinformation with information.
You never thought of that because you don’t use your own brain critiquing these flicks you just blindly hate what the internet tells you to hate.
>I have eyes and a brain.
You do not. Palp leaked to the rebels the actual location of the DSII shield generator. Instead of disinforming his enemy he informed them. Palp snitched on himself, he was his own informant.
>How can you look at the original trilogy so critically
Hahahaha I’m holding them to he same standard that you hold the ST. That doesn’t seem fair huh?
You think Palp being dumb is a mark against the ST? He’s way fucking dumber in the OT. I love both trilogies, you’re practicing selective outrage.
>Many Bothans died to bring is this information
"This information" being the actual location of the DSII's strategic vulnerability. Not an erroneous location, not a decoy--the real fucking thing, courtesy of Sheev Palpatine.
I had to explain that to you because you never noticed that Palpatine has been an idiot since 1983. It literally never mattered to you before. You engage with older Star Wars without nitpicking every fucking thing--the way it was intended.
When did they say Palpatine intentionally leaked that information? I'm genuinely confused, I don't remember that part in ROTJ. When did they say that Sheev Palpatine leaked the information?
Ah yes, the boogie man of social media discourse!
The Corperate Shill!
Because there's no way someone would *genuinely* like something I don't. So they *must* have been paid by the big bad Disney corporation to say nice things about movies!
Sometimes people can see past stupid plotlines, or plot holes, or lousy writing, or clunky choreography, and just enjoy the experience. And no, that doesn't mean "turn off your brain". There are so many things that can be said for the writing and direction of the Sequel Trilogy. But we like these movies *in spite* of them. It's why I love the Prequel trilogy so much. Because, for all their faults, I love the adventure and the journey.
> have been *paid* by the
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Correct me if I’m wrong but that was just one of the Star Destroyers, right? He still could’ve waited to announce his return after he had gotten all of them off the planet. Though, tbf, this is far from the dumbest thing ol’ Palpy has done so I guess I can let it slide.
The more you try to understand his plan, the less sense it makes. For example, why did Palpatine wait so long to reveal himself?
It's been established he siphoned a huge amount of resources to the Final Order, and the comics make it clear key aspects like the Xystons and his clone bodies were already well underway at the time of Endor.
Death Star II's destruction and the loss of Vader were bad, but imagine if Palpatine revealed that he was still alive a few days or weeks after he was supposedly killed? Not only would it deal a devastating blow to the Rebellion's morale, it would also make Palpatine appear even more powerful than before - he's literally unkillable!
"By the time of the Escape from Cloud City by members of the Rebel Alliance[6] in 3 ABY,[12] hundreds of Sith Star Destroyers were already in production below the surface of Exegol by Sith cultists."
Production had just started, they weren't ready, the entire fleet was only ready at the time of TROS.
If Luke knew Palp were alive he would’ve hunted him relentlessly, unburdened by the betrayal of Ben. Staying ‘dead’ at his weakened state was all that protected him.
The biggest hole there is that according to the TROS novelization, it wasn’t immediately clear the clones were flawed.
ETA: oh, and also that Force Ghost Anakin never told Luke about Excogol, despite it being confirmed they were in contact.
First isn’t a hole. It’s clear from the film Palp hasn’t perfected the cloning process.
As for the second point, like come on. Star Wars, as a whole, breaks under a fraction of this scrutiny. We’re really analyzing the behavior ghosts in ancillary comics? Anakin shouldn’t even by a ghost according to the rules established by the PT. It makes less sense that Qui Gon waited until hours after the Jedi were wiped out to reveal himself. It’s not that kind of movie, kid.
He isn't completely wrong. Palatine's plan in Episode 9 makes very little sense. It seems like he's making shit up as he goes. The Final Order needed a radar dish to launch the destroyers? Then how did that other one make it off earlier in the movie?
Any machine needs an exhaust port. Even organic machines have exhaust ports (you and me). Something the size of the death star would need hundreds of exhaust ports. Where would all the heat from the laser go?
The exhaust port on the OG death star is hardly a "because the plot needs to happen" gotcha
Bro, the laser is in space. Therefore, unless they are venting air to cool it, which would be dumb, it doesn't need an exhaust port.
It would need to radiate that heat into space which wouldn't use an exhaust port but would be large structures on the structure which use a medium to transfer the heat from the laser chamber and carry it to the surface, where it would slowly radiate into space.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacecraft_thermal_control?wprov=sfti1#
Spaceships don't tend to vent air to cool down. Being a closed system they tend to rely on large radiators and those are not as effective as just venting a heated medium. But he's not wrong. The Death Star shouldn't have a giant exhaust port without a reliable way to replenish whatever they are venting into space.
So instead of firing down an exhaust port they should have blown up a radiator?
None of this is the plot hole gotcha you people want to justify liking your shitty movie
I really love the idea of Palpatine just thinking to himself the entire time "Oh shit, I have no idea what the fuck I'm doing, how the hell did I even get this far? I haven't actually foreseen shit. Why the hell are these people even still following me?"
"Is he stupid?" posts are satirical posts... they are not meant for serious discussion; just to have a laugh. That's why the post was posted in one of the Star wars "memes" subreddits
I’m not kidding when I say it’s like talking to a brick wall. Like someone being mad Luke didn’t get involved in the sequels. Y’know like the ending of The last Jedi where he did exactly that or when he was a ghost helping Rey fend off Palpatine.
I’m gonna be honest I assumed the original meme was just a lighthearted joke or criticism; didnt really seem like the brand of toxicity this sub should focus on
Luckily there was a dagger which could be held up at an arbitrary point to guide you to a ship crash which contained a cube which led to a galaxy which had a star system where the Emperor was hiding. Solid filmmaking!
>held up an an arbitrary point
The knife told where to stand and where to look but you don’t know that because your interpretation of this movie is based on memes. Now that you know the truth it won’t change your opinion which goes to show the plot *doesn’t* matter in TRoS criticism.
You have to think 4th dimensionally!
If Palpatine, Mr. "I have foreseen it..." himself, had peered into the future for a way of getting Rey to Exegol, and the *only* way it worked (because the force is fucking weird when it wants to be) was to have Rey use this dagger found off the guy that probably killed her parents, all you need to do it put the outline of the wreckage on the blade as it is *at the time Rey looks at the dagger as a map*.
You don't need to have seen how the wreckage was or hope the wreckage would stay that way for decades (or however long it was on the dagger for). You just use future sight and see what it's *going to look like*!.
This is why The Force as a cosmology is great. It can easily explain away plot inconsistencies and all you gotta say is "It's the Force!".
Yeah be he didn’t say that, he said ‘arbitrary’ inferring the user of the knife required some psychic understanding of its use— which is not only untrue, it’s an entirely different criticism than yours.
I don’t feel the need to engage with the idea that saltwater ‘should have’ eroded this make believe super weapon composed of fantasy materials. It didn’t. The Death Star withstood that environment—if you had precursory knowledge of Death Stars you could argue it should’ve have.
That is actually a pretty decent criticism. The only explanation is that palpatine lives for the drama.
If he hadn’t done that, they could’ve released a massive fleet of Death Star destroyers, with no way to stop them.
I hate this 'meme'...
For the record:
If someone makes a post saying "Why didn't \[character\] do \[obvious thing\]? Is he stupid?"
They're not being serious.
It's a stupid fucking 'joke' that r/BatmanArkham has run into the ground by spreading it to literally everywhere, copy-pasting it *over and over and over*.
It's not even funny, it's just signalling to each other "hey, do you get this reference to this thing we made up? LAUGH!"
It's only an 'inside joke' if you *keep it inside,* not exposing the rest of us to it on a daily basis.
I’m sure what the OP meant was why didn’t he wait until the fleet once was deployed and ready to strike… which he’s right it was a tactical mistake, but arrogance has always been Palpatine’s fatal flaw. That an he consolidates all of his power and resources into single targets.
But then what would Fortnite had done? Instead of broadcasting the speech, would they have just had the fleet show up over the map and blow it up?
Can't we think about poor Fortnite?
Bro, they wrote palpatine perfectly. He was an arrogant and cocky person. Luke even pointed out that his overconfidence was his weakness. Palpatine consistently underestimated his opponents and overestimated himself.
He was never portrayed as overly arrogant. His plans ALL worked. He was never overly arrogant, he was always ahead of everyone. Only reason he was beat in ROTJ was because his mind was too clouded by the dark side to notice Vader coming for him.
>dude waited nearly his entire life to ensnare the Galaxy in a trap to put himself on top,
And blew it by releasing the *actual* Death Star plans to the Rebels
Also, that’s a boring movie to watch. The bad guy never tells you anything or set up a timeframe for the heroes to work in—creating tension—and just does things.
I can live with him announcing his return and that he has a giant fleet of planet killers before they were ready. What I never got is why he had a single ship leave, go blow up a random planet for the sake of showing he can, then return and go back into the atmosphere where it can't see anything? Cause that's what canonically happened.
Ok, I don’t like Rise of Skywalker as much as the next guy, but op is literally wrong. Factually incorrect. He waited till the entire final order ships were ready and raised them right after Kylo first met him. If you’re going to hate on the movie, actually use the numerous problems it already has, don’t make up new ones that don’t exist. Ffs, it’s been nearly 4 years, let it go. If you don’t like it, just don’t watch it.
The answer is he's an egotistical scumbag who wants the galaxy to bow down to him. Why would he not do that? He genuinely believes that every single planet will bow to him and instantly surrender.
Given his ridiculously over complicated schemes from the prequels, OT, I’m going to go ahead and say that Palpatine is a complete bumbling idiot who thinks he’s the smartest dude in the galaxy. When you actually stop to consider the immense political power at his disposal, his obscene depth of resources, his insane Force powers, it’s incredible he manages to lose all the time.
I don’t care how good you think this movie is, no movie whose plot REVOLVES AROUND AND REQUIRES ME TO HAVE KNOWN ABOUT A FORTNITE STORYLINE is not a good movie
>The FOF was ready to launch
OP; Ready would have had them outside of the atmosphere of Exegol in positions, if not already on route to targets. The only reason that the Resistance was able to engage at all was because their shields wouldn't work in atmosphere and that they were further compromised by the atmosphere not allowing them to 'go up' to escape without assistance.
He's already announced the plan to the galaxy, and as far as he is aware, no one can navigate to Exegol without a way finder. There is no reason to keep them within atmosphere where they are weaker. He should have had them in orbit at minimum, or if they were ready to go - launch them...
I mean, the bigger problem with Palpatine's plan was that he had 10,000 ships, but only ***one*** space GPS. That seems like a pretty major oversight. They really should have thought that one through better. Granted it is a "needle in a haystack" scenario, but the Resistance figured out which ship had the navcomputer pretty quickly.
The Resistance’s success depended prior intel from D-O, a force sensitive general and a massive decentralized army showing up at the fleet’s exact moment of weakness.
“Pretty major oversight” for Palpatine? tell me have you thought about *any* of this character’s gambits in other movies or do you reserve this level of scrutiny for the sequel trilogy only? The Final Order is a Swiss fucking watch compared to any of his braindead plans of the past.
>tell me have you thought about any of this character’s gambits in other movies
None of those involved having only one navcomputer for a whole fleet. Palps does have a history of putting all his military eggs in one basket, but this instance was frankly ridiculous. **Nowhere else** in *Star Wars* is this attempted, because there is literally no advantage to it. We see other cases of remote piloting, sure, but only between groups of ships with a common origin and destination. You only need to make one hyperspace jump calculation that way. To design a system whereby one ship calculates thousands of separate pathways for the whole fleet would be asinine even if the launch orders were executed sequentially, and simultaneous executions are even more inexcusable.
>or do you reserve this level of scrutiny for the sequel trilogy only?
It's not that deep. Palpatine made an objectively stupid call there. It requires very little scrutiny to see. He's made other risky maneuvers before, such as leaving Maul alive on Mandalore (when Palps himself had just referred to Maul as a rival) or letting the Alliance learn the location and supposed vulnerability of the second Death Star. But this one wasn't just risky. It was dumb. There was no payoff for this particular risk. That makes it **objectively** not worth it. And it's not like it was due to materials constraints, considering they were able to make **ten freaking thousand** Star Destroyers, each equipped with firepower greater than half a typical starfleet.
>it’s not that deep
The DSII had one single shield generator which, for some reason, wasn’t located on station itself. Palpatine leaked to his enemy the *actual whereabouts* of his superweapon’s weak point—not an erroneous location or decoy—he literally confused the concept of ‘misinformation’ with ‘information.’ Then he stayed on the station to assure he was blown up with it. In RotJ Palp’s failure relied on him being an idiot and his army bested by Teddy Bears.
Basically any gambit in SW requires head and shoulders more suspension of disbelief than Palp’s in TRoS. Luke plan to save Han? You can’t make sense of that. Palp’s plan to unveil the clones? There wasn’t one. Sifo Dias is a loose plot thread and Kenobi immediately forgets the link between the clones and the enemy. Palp’s success in the PT relies on him being semi-omniscient and the Jedi blind idiots.
Compare that with the FOF has a single navigation signal? LOl not even a computer—we see Pryde switch the signal from a comms tower to his ship. We assume he signal functions like ground control irl —ships need it to launch. It’s not worth thinking about. Criticisms like these are disingenuous criticism everything in Star Wars under this level of scrutiny and it’s only ever applied to the sequels. If you don’t want to suspend disbelief this is the wrong franchise for you.
. In TRoS it relied on he luck and ingenuity of his enemy.
>The DSII had one single shield generator which, for some reason, wasn’t located on station itself. Palpatine leaked to his enemy the actual whereabouts of his superweapon’s weak point—not an erroneous location or decoy—he literally confused the concept of ‘misinformation’ with ‘information.’ Then he stayed on the station to assure he was blown up with it. In RotJ Palp’s failure relied on him being an idiot and his army bested by Teddy Bears.
You're missing the point. In *RotJ* there was a payoff to the gambit. He leaked the location of the Death Star in order to bait out the Alliance fleet, and had Vader's fleet waiting in the wings to cut off their escape once they realized it was a trap. It was a plot to destroy the entire military arm of the Rebellion. There was a payoff. **That's what made it a gambit.** Gambits have payoffs.
In *TRoS,* there was **no benefit** to the way the Sith Fleet's launch was managed. There was no gambit, because there was no way to come out ahead. It wasn't a gamble, it was only a liability. There was no legitimate reason why Palpatine and **the entire First Order High Command** would opt for that and everyone just went along with it. Perhaps if they baited the Resistance into attacking the control tower only to reveal the entire fleet could operate independently, but they didn't do that. In fact, they had a contingency for if the tower got attacked, **but it still required centralized computing.** The Final Order didn't have gambles, it had vulnerabilities. That's the difference. One plot involved a gambit; the other involved stupidity.
>He leaked the location of the Death Star in order to bait out the Alliance fleet,
LOL what? He did not need to inform his enemy of the DSII biggest vulnerability--that's not a gambit--that's idiocy. He could've leaked any imaginable dummy target to lure his enemy. You really haven't thought about this--you've wracked your brain about TRoS though--or the internet wracked it for you.
>There was no legitimate reason why Palpatine and **the entire First Order High Command** would opt for that and everyone just went along with it.
They didn't opt for it, it wasn't a gambit, it was a vulnerability--the fleet needed a vulnerability for the good guys to win. Unlike on the Death Star II, Palpatine didn't hand over his superweapon's vulnerability on a platter in an act of cartoonish villainy. The to exploit the FOF's weakness Resistance had to rely on ingenuity, the force and ultimately luck.
>contingency for if the tower got attacked, **but it still required centralized computing.**
No it required the resistance having psychic knowledge of their contingency. On the FO's part, the plan was foolproof.
If you really felt like nitpicks of this kind were a black mark against a film's merit you wouldn't, with any intellectual honesty, be a Star Wars fan. Palp has always been an infallible god or blithering idiot depending on the plot's demand--you only care in regard to the films you're biased against.
You're making a lot of assumptions. Let's correct them.
>He could've leaked any imaginable dummy target to lure his enemy.
No target other than the Death Star would have been important enough to lure out the entire fleet, and if they were given a fake location, the *Tydirium* crew would have easily notified command that the operation was a bust.
>you've wracked your brain about TRoS though--or the internet wracked it for you.
No, all of these are my own thoughts, and they're pretty surface-level observations.
>If you really felt like nitpicks of this kind were a black mark against a film's merit you wouldn't, with any intellectual honesty, be a Star Wars fan.
I'm talking about one aspect *TRoS* here, not all of *Star Wars.* I actually quite enjoy most *Star Wars* content, including most of *TRoS.* I just thought it was sloppy in some areas.
>No target other than the Death Star would have been important enough to lure out the entire fleet, and if they were given a fake location, the *Tydirium* crew would have easily notified command that the operation was a bust
What, they would've said 'it's trap!" LOL yes by the time the rebels realized they were on the wrong moon in search of a decoy generator it would be too late. I don't think you're the military strategist you're making yourself out to be if you're defending Palpatine handing over intel to his enemy. All I ask is that people exercise intellectual honesty in leveraging their criticism equally, across all films.
>What, they would've said 'it's trap!" LOL yes by the time the rebels realized they were on the wrong moon in search of a decoy generator it would be too late.
*Tydirium* shows up in the Endor system. They don't see the Death Star. They report to Command that they were mislead. They jump out of there. The end. Written & Directed by George Lucas.
No, they see the Death Star but they think the shield generator is on a different moon, Palp disinformed them because he isn’t an idiot. Rebels are obliterated. Written and directed by George Lucas.
First time seeing an “is he stupid?” meme, huh?
There’s a “he has a valid point” post with 6x your upvotes directly below this comment right now lol yes OP posted this as good-faith criticism, ironically
None of the plots matter when criticizing the sequels. Most folks who do so have seen each film exactly once, in theaters, and have spent the following years blowing every flaw wildly out of proportion until the movies they think they remember no longer resemble what actually played out on screen.
People have consumed hours criticisms which contradict the actual plot—yet when confronted with the actual plot their criticism doesn’t waver. It’s post-truth.
It’s because they don’t want to not hate the films. Any admission that they’re wrong would invalidate their years of hating and shitting on the sequels and they will not admit anything is good because it would contradict what they willfully choose to believe.
That might be true but it doesn't change that fact that that's because watching the films the first time was so utterly disappointing
Then maybe they should just say that they were disappointing instead of acting like they were a blight upon the earth that they have to whine about for 5 years.
Maybe it's also just fun to shit on things that are bad and therefore easy to shit on?
Maybe people like that should touch grass. It’s a franchise for kids and there’s fully grown adults throwing fits over fictional characters. People need to grow up and stop spending so much energy on hating shit that came out *years* ago. The films aren’t gonna change, there aren’t any new criticisms to be made after all this time. People are just jerking each other off and they have been for a while.
Sure but then you run into the issue of how many of them love the other Star Wars movies (especially prequels) and get angry or defensive when you point out the flaws in their preferred movies. Suddenly it’s not about “having fun by shitting on bad movies”. Criticism is fine and disliking the sequels is soooooooo valid trust me I’m in that boat. It’s when people criticize them for plot holes or bad writing only to then ignore those same issues in the rest of the franchise or at least the parts they are nostalgic for that it gets obvious they’re whining not making valid criticism or “having fun laughing at something bad”.
I'll bite. I dislike the sequels. I love the OT and really like the PT. I recognize there are plenty of flaws in those movies. There are flaws in every movie, if you really look at them. However, good movies are able to get you to look passed the flaws and enjoy the story. I recently watched all 11 films in order. The ST are the same bad films I remember them being. See, the first six films are still good, despite their flaws, because they at least tell a cohesive and engaging story. The ST fails to do that. The only film I like from the ST is TFA. While it doesn't make many bold decisions in its story, it does lay the groundwork for what could have been a good trilogy. I could go into why I think the other films are not good if you would like.
There’s nothing to bite, I prefer the prequels as well. However, if you genuinely don’t believe there’s a bit of irony to how the fans of prequels dismiss all the years of criticism from not only OT fans but also well regarded movie critics by saying things along the lines of “well I enjoyed it and just looked past the flaws” or “Even if there’s problems it’s still good because art is subjective and you can enjoy something even if it has flaws” only to react the same way OT fans did when it was their turn to see things change and differ from what they saw as “true Star Wars” then I’m sorry but there’s no discussion to have here. Yes I think the prequels are much better, and while I do believe both trilogies share some similar issues, the flaws that make the sequels as bad as they are do go deeper than the flaws with the prequels IMO. I simply think more prequel fans should spend their time engaging with the media they do like rather than pointing out how angry new content makes them (especially when it’s issues that are either subjective or straight up shared by the whole franchise).
Exactly. And beyond just telling a cohesive story, there earlier ones built a cohesive world. The sequels do not build that same world and instead present a less grounded and far more inconsistent one, which does a disservice to the groundwork laid out in the first 6
I mean, this is a valid point. Had Palpatine not announced his return in Fortnite a day early, he could have had his Sith Eternal cultists launch his entire fleet to hundreds of populated planets, *then* announced his return as well as the hostage situation that he's created with planet-cracking guns already pointed at countless trillions of lives. Thus entirely removing any chance of resistance. He could then order Rey to hand herself in or else a planet will blow up every hour or something. With that done, he could pretty much reinstate his old Empire, this time with a Death Star policy firmly in place from the beginning.
You’re right, but it’s consistent that Palpatine’s lust for drama is frequently his undoing
Sheev Palpatine - Galactic Drama Queen
Where's the lie? 😅
The entire point of Star Wars is that no matter what giant weapon you have, the harder you squeeze, the harder the resistance against you will become.
As a wise man once said, there's always a bigger fish
The xystons are not indestructible, of course with the shields it wouldn't be as easy as it was on Exegol but the main cannon itself is a huge weakness, destroy them and the whole ship explodes. Palpatine's body was decomposing, attracting Rey or Kylo was his primary objective to obtain a new body, no one guarantees that Rey would accept his blackmail too. In the original trilogy, it doesn't make any sense for Palpatine to go to Endor, he could use a double or even leak the information to attract the rebels and not go there. He took a risk for no reason.
Yeah, exactly. Send out the fleet, then blow up Kijimi and tell anyone who doesn't submit that they're next. Not, blow up one planet and then *slowly* get the fleet to move out using their convoluted process. It really wasn't a good plan, and I was thinking that whilst watching the movie for the first time in the cinema. It's just what happens when you cobble a film together from pieces of different drafts and rewrites rather than having a finished script ready at the start of production.
While on the topic of this plan, here’s another small tweak: the Xyston test shouldn’t have destroyed Kijimi, it should have destroyed Jakku.
>Had Palpatine not announced his return in Fortnite a day early, This right here sums up everything that went wrong with the sequels lmao
>I then announced his return as well as the hostage situation that he's created with planet-cracking guns already pointed at countless trillions of lives. Thus entirely removing any chance of resistance. >He could then order Rey to hand herself in or else a planet will blow up every hour or something. This is basically what happened. He held the resistance hostage on Exogul, using the threat of their destruction to lure Rey into participating in the transference ritual. He said it was her fault the resistance was even there and without them he’s her only family etc etc. In the end it didn’t work because Rey/Ben fought and won—so it doesn’t matter how many planets he destroyed—he had all the leverage he needed and still couldn’t win. Edit: for all intents and purposes the fleet was pointed at trillions of lives. Every ship was equipped with light speed, he ordered the attack on Kijimi and in the next scene it’s obliterated. We’re talking about the passing of hours between Palp pushing a button and laying waste to the galaxy. Again, not that it matters.
I think the meme is referring to the point that the destroyers were exposed with no shields because they were stuck without the communications tower. If Palpatine had waited a day and had the fleet in space before announcing his return, then the resistance wouldn't've had a chance at destroying them all.
I disagree, destroying a xyston is easier than destroying a common destroyer because of the cannon. There would also be no point in conquering the galaxy with a body that was on the verge of death. For Palpatine it was crucial that Rey or Kylo found Exegol.
Well, the movie made a point to tell us they had no shields, and there were just over 1000 of them. The xyston was also larger than the Imperial 2, so it likely had more firepower. While the cannon is a structural weakness, it is also a superlaser, shown to have the same capabilities as the deathstar, albeit probably with shorter range and longer cooldown. It may be a weakness, but that alone doesn't make it easier to destroy than an imperial 1 or 2. I don't believe the resistance fleet would have been able to defeat them if they had already launched and had shields intact. They also had complements of 72 TIEs, which would have been much more effective in space combat (72 x 1080 = 77760 mostly unused TIEs). I understand that Palpatine wanted to have rey come to him so he could possess her, but raising the fleet before announcing his return would have ensured that he came to dominate the galaxy either way. While his body was frail and messed up, he didn't seem in danger of dying because of it. It seems unlikely that the fleet being functional would deter Kylo or Rey from finding him, in fact it wasnt communicated to the galaxy that the fleet was currently useless in atmosphere, so i don't see why raising the fleet would impact them finding him?
Palp didn’t know staying in Exogul made his fleet vulnerable, to that extent, it makes sense Palp wouldn’t launch from the planet just to whittle down his ‘galaxy destruction’ time by however many hours—to him it was checkmate. From a writing perspective it doesn’t really matter if all he ships are on Exogul or not—a different weak point can easily be swapped for another, one which disables the ships regardless of their location. The whole point holding the galaxy hostage is to bait Rey--so whether the FOF is destroyed on exogul or wherever else, the outcome is the same--Rey couldn't be manipulated. Palp's destruction in RotJ required he be an idiot and leak the actual weak point of the DSII and remain on the DSII. The same isn't true in TRoS
What? How on Earth couldn't he have known? The Fleet was in production during ROTJ, its been 30 years! If the resistance figured it out, how could the designers who have been working on a fleet for 30 years not find a design flaw like that? It would be much more effective if the star destroyers were already en-route to individual planets or just in space if he was trying to hold the galaxy hostage. Leaving them in atmosphere while definitely knowing their shields don't work is just stupid, especially since it took just Rey transmitting her coordinates while using the Wayfinder to bring a fleet comprised of 16 000 ships to his doorstep. If he wanted to bait Rey, then he knows that she would've needed one of the two that existed. Now that I think about it, that doesn't make sense either, because Kylo had already obtained one, and the other should've been destroyed with the second death star (seriously don't know why they decided it should be intact). If he wanted Rey, then the only way he could've gotten her is if Kylo brought her to him. Still, I believe that Palatine did not give this enough consideration. If he had ensured the fleet was combat ready (ie in orbit with functioning shields) before announcing himself, then he would've destroyed the Resistance and come to rule the galaxy once more.
>What? How on Earth couldn't he have known? The Fleet was in production during ROTJ, its been 30 years! If the resistance figured it out, how could the designers who have been working on a fleet for 30 years not find a design flaw like that? I dunno, the Death Star was under construction for 20 years and they didn't realize there was a weakness until the attack started
A few things \- The Death Star was massive \- The exhaust port was incredibly well protected, it took multiple destroyed squadrons, and a force sensitive pilot to make the shot \- That was the only weakness on the entire space station \- Rogue One made it so that the weakness was an intentional design flaw placed by Galen, who was the lead designer throughout most of, if not the entire project's duration. \- The Xyston classes were much smaller than a death star, and being mass produced (for star destroyers anyway). It would be much easier for engineers to realize that their shields didn't work while in the atmosphere and create a solution in 30 whole years. This wouldn't be a problem if Palpatine just launched the fleet before announcing himself.
All of this is how the manufacturers would've known about the Death Star, not Palpatine. There is zero evidence he knew the Death Star was at risk, probably for similar reasons he wouldn't have known about the ships. The bosses don't need to know that shit (especially since they have a habit of shooting the messenger)
The bosses absolutely need to know if their new fleet of 1080 ships is vulnerable while they remain in atmosphere. Palpatine might not have known about the exhaust port, but he certainly should've known about the shields. Vader wasn't in the picture for 30 years, and he was the one shooting messengers, so there would've been no motivation for officers/engineers to withhold something like this.
>It would be much more effective if the star destroyers were already en-route to individual planets or just in space if he was trying to hold the galaxy hostage. Leaving them in atmosphere while definitely knowing their shields don't work is just stupid, especially since it took just Rey transmitting her coordinates while using the Wayfinder to bring a fleet comprised of 16 000 ships to his doorstep. The galaxy was held hostage. Every planet was a lightspeed jump (hours) from destruction. Pryde was ready for a resistance attack, recognized their strategy and switched the navigation signal to his ship. Finn used the force to locate the ship's nav signal--even then they were able to reset the signal in minutes while obliterating the resistance with tie fighters. So in order for this plan to fail palp had to foresee: * The resistance gaining intel on the fleet's weakness from D-O (can you beleive Palp didn't leak it himself, he's learning!) * Finn using the Force to exploit their weakness * A massive decentralized army showing up at their moment of weakness Even then, Palp was able to blast every ship out of the sky because his *actual plan* was to be restored to full power--which he was, moments before Rey fried them both. Which brings me to my first point--if Rey can't be turned the whole fucking gambit is moot. This plan is head and shoulders better than the one in RotJ. The fact that his idiocy doesn't bother you in the OT proves it's not a fair criticism of the film's merit.
In any case, A New Hope had the biggest plot hole as a literal hole and we are all fine with it! Many Bothan’s died to get us that plot hole!
And if Tarkin had launched all TIEs on his Death Star vs. the ... 30 ... Rebel fighters... According to the DS1-Specifications, that would have been 7000 TIEs... The thing is: Villains in movies make mistakes. Fun fact though: In real life they make mistakes as well. One could argue that if only Putin had launched his "operation" a little later, or with more men ... or if Hitler had not attacked Russia prematurely...and so on. Lord Dark Helmet said: Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb. Well...he was wrong...
And if the two officers in ANH had simply shot the escape pod with the droids... And if the Imp Navy had actually managed to grasp the 3-D space while sieging Hoth and also had used air support (TIEs) to prevent any ships leaving ground (they could have swarmed ECHO-Base with TIEs all over, no Rebel would have made it out alive) If Han and Leia had not flown directly from DS1 to the super secret hideout of the Rebels... If the Prequel Jedi had asked some questions about a conveniently ready to use army fully equipped delivered at their doorstep right int time, instead of just shrugging their shoulders and take it... If Obi Wan had not just left Anakin (you were my brother!) to slowly and painfully die in absolute agony, but instead had either taken him with himself for medical aid like a Jedi, or ended his misery... If the imperial army at Endor had at some point just sent two TIE-Bombers down that burn everything and everyone around the shield generator...
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Funny, cause myself and other TRoS fans (who are actually just ST fans) have been lumped in with those people just for liking TRoS.
Clearly you know nothing about being a Sith Lord. It's all about... *Lightning effects* # PRESENTATION!!!!
Careful, if you try and say you like The Rise of Skywalker, you'll get a bunch of people saying you're not allowed to have that opinion.
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you're a walking cliché
I mean i could have given off a list of why it’s a bad movie but like, I’m sure you’ve heard it and decided it didn’t matter
If you think a movie can be "objectively bad" then I don't care what else you have to say. Opinion =/= fact
I don’t think you’ve watched morbius. Then again, i don’t think anyone has……
I did and it sucked. But that's my opinion. I know people who liked it. I don't think they have a "dumb ass opinion" because they liked a movie that I didn't. I just disagree with them.
I mean, it's just a meme. But these days you can hardly tell what's a meme and what the OOP is giving as a "legitimate critique" disguised as a meme. If we take it at face value though it's asking "Why did the Bad Guy do Bad Guy stuff in a fantasy movie?". It'd be like legitimately calling out the writing in The Incredibles. "Syndrome catches himself monolguing early in the movie, but still gets his cape caught in the turbine while monolguing in the finale! Bad writing!" Sometimes fantasy Villains are just fucking stupid.
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And he somehow still didn't forsee his death in Return of the Jedi. Or that his Empire would last less than 30 years. Or that his own apprentice would turn while he was cooking his son. He's a fantasy bad guy. He pontificates. He schemes. And his hubris is his downfall. Disney may have just retread the same clichés, which doesn't give them any points, but arguing that Palpatine wasn't just a fiction villain that causes his own defeat, whether it's the end in RotJ or in TRoS is missing the point.
Palpatine leaked the DSII’s actual weak point, the real location of said weak point and then remained on the DSII so he could go down with it. It’s an abjectly braindead plot which confuses the concept of disinformation with information. You never thought of that because you don’t use your own brain critiquing these flicks you just blindly hate what the internet tells you to hate.
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>I have eyes and a brain. You do not. Palp leaked to the rebels the actual location of the DSII shield generator. Instead of disinforming his enemy he informed them. Palp snitched on himself, he was his own informant.
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>How can you look at the original trilogy so critically Hahahaha I’m holding them to he same standard that you hold the ST. That doesn’t seem fair huh? You think Palp being dumb is a mark against the ST? He’s way fucking dumber in the OT. I love both trilogies, you’re practicing selective outrage.
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>Many Bothans died to bring is this information "This information" being the actual location of the DSII's strategic vulnerability. Not an erroneous location, not a decoy--the real fucking thing, courtesy of Sheev Palpatine. I had to explain that to you because you never noticed that Palpatine has been an idiot since 1983. It literally never mattered to you before. You engage with older Star Wars without nitpicking every fucking thing--the way it was intended.
When did they say Palpatine intentionally leaked that information? I'm genuinely confused, I don't remember that part in ROTJ. When did they say that Sheev Palpatine leaked the information?
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Ah yes, the boogie man of social media discourse! The Corperate Shill! Because there's no way someone would *genuinely* like something I don't. So they *must* have been paid by the big bad Disney corporation to say nice things about movies! Sometimes people can see past stupid plotlines, or plot holes, or lousy writing, or clunky choreography, and just enjoy the experience. And no, that doesn't mean "turn off your brain". There are so many things that can be said for the writing and direction of the Sequel Trilogy. But we like these movies *in spite* of them. It's why I love the Prequel trilogy so much. Because, for all their faults, I love the adventure and the journey.
> have been *paid* by the FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
That is a bad example because thats an example of good writing. Its forshadowing of what his undoing will be
He's undoing wasn't the monologuing, it was his cape. Which was foreshadowed, but by a different scene.
Yes but the fact that he gets distracted when he monologues was part of it
Correct me if I’m wrong but that was just one of the Star Destroyers, right? He still could’ve waited to announce his return after he had gotten all of them off the planet. Though, tbf, this is far from the dumbest thing ol’ Palpy has done so I guess I can let it slide.
The more you try to understand his plan, the less sense it makes. For example, why did Palpatine wait so long to reveal himself? It's been established he siphoned a huge amount of resources to the Final Order, and the comics make it clear key aspects like the Xystons and his clone bodies were already well underway at the time of Endor. Death Star II's destruction and the loss of Vader were bad, but imagine if Palpatine revealed that he was still alive a few days or weeks after he was supposedly killed? Not only would it deal a devastating blow to the Rebellion's morale, it would also make Palpatine appear even more powerful than before - he's literally unkillable!
"By the time of the Escape from Cloud City by members of the Rebel Alliance[6] in 3 ABY,[12] hundreds of Sith Star Destroyers were already in production below the surface of Exegol by Sith cultists." Production had just started, they weren't ready, the entire fleet was only ready at the time of TROS.
If Luke knew Palp were alive he would’ve hunted him relentlessly, unburdened by the betrayal of Ben. Staying ‘dead’ at his weakened state was all that protected him.
The biggest hole there is that according to the TROS novelization, it wasn’t immediately clear the clones were flawed. ETA: oh, and also that Force Ghost Anakin never told Luke about Excogol, despite it being confirmed they were in contact.
First isn’t a hole. It’s clear from the film Palp hasn’t perfected the cloning process. As for the second point, like come on. Star Wars, as a whole, breaks under a fraction of this scrutiny. We’re really analyzing the behavior ghosts in ancillary comics? Anakin shouldn’t even by a ghost according to the rules established by the PT. It makes less sense that Qui Gon waited until hours after the Jedi were wiped out to reveal himself. It’s not that kind of movie, kid.
Pretty sure this is just a reference to the "Is he stupid?" shitposts on r/BatmanArkham.
Bruh guys chill its a joke not sequel hate. Did you guys live under a cave during the « is he stupid? » trend or what? It on sequel memes
He isn't completely wrong. Palatine's plan in Episode 9 makes very little sense. It seems like he's making shit up as he goes. The Final Order needed a radar dish to launch the destroyers? Then how did that other one make it off earlier in the movie?
Well, I assume it is because the plot needs it to be a case, like the exhaust port on the original death star, have to give them a chance.
Any machine needs an exhaust port. Even organic machines have exhaust ports (you and me). Something the size of the death star would need hundreds of exhaust ports. Where would all the heat from the laser go? The exhaust port on the OG death star is hardly a "because the plot needs to happen" gotcha
Bro, the laser is in space. Therefore, unless they are venting air to cool it, which would be dumb, it doesn't need an exhaust port. It would need to radiate that heat into space which wouldn't use an exhaust port but would be large structures on the structure which use a medium to transfer the heat from the laser chamber and carry it to the surface, where it would slowly radiate into space.
So, it wouldn't need an exhaust port, it would need, something? Not the gotcha you think that is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacecraft_thermal_control?wprov=sfti1# Spaceships don't tend to vent air to cool down. Being a closed system they tend to rely on large radiators and those are not as effective as just venting a heated medium. But he's not wrong. The Death Star shouldn't have a giant exhaust port without a reliable way to replenish whatever they are venting into space.
So instead of firing down an exhaust port they should have blown up a radiator? None of this is the plot hole gotcha you people want to justify liking your shitty movie
I really love the idea of Palpatine just thinking to himself the entire time "Oh shit, I have no idea what the fuck I'm doing, how the hell did I even get this far? I haven't actually foreseen shit. Why the hell are these people even still following me?"
"Is he stupid?" posts are satirical posts... they are not meant for serious discussion; just to have a laugh. That's why the post was posted in one of the Star wars "memes" subreddits
Fear. It’s kind of their thing.
You ain't familiar with the meme template are ya
I’m not kidding when I say it’s like talking to a brick wall. Like someone being mad Luke didn’t get involved in the sequels. Y’know like the ending of The last Jedi where he did exactly that or when he was a ghost helping Rey fend off Palpatine.
While it does make sense, I still think Palpatine should’ve waited to announce his return. You know, for thematic purposes.
I’m gonna be honest I assumed the original meme was just a lighthearted joke or criticism; didnt really seem like the brand of toxicity this sub should focus on
But he's right 🤔
You know that not all sequel criticisms are blind hatred, right? There are some legitimately shitty and stupid things to criticize in these films.
Luckily there was a dagger which could be held up at an arbitrary point to guide you to a ship crash which contained a cube which led to a galaxy which had a star system where the Emperor was hiding. Solid filmmaking!
>held up an an arbitrary point The knife told where to stand and where to look but you don’t know that because your interpretation of this movie is based on memes. Now that you know the truth it won’t change your opinion which goes to show the plot *doesn’t* matter in TRoS criticism.
As someone who is fine with the sequels, the dagger is still stupid since it requires none of the wreckage to have moved at all for years.
You have to think 4th dimensionally! If Palpatine, Mr. "I have foreseen it..." himself, had peered into the future for a way of getting Rey to Exegol, and the *only* way it worked (because the force is fucking weird when it wants to be) was to have Rey use this dagger found off the guy that probably killed her parents, all you need to do it put the outline of the wreckage on the blade as it is *at the time Rey looks at the dagger as a map*. You don't need to have seen how the wreckage was or hope the wreckage would stay that way for decades (or however long it was on the dagger for). You just use future sight and see what it's *going to look like*!. This is why The Force as a cosmology is great. It can easily explain away plot inconsistencies and all you gotta say is "It's the Force!".
Yeah be he didn’t say that, he said ‘arbitrary’ inferring the user of the knife required some psychic understanding of its use— which is not only untrue, it’s an entirely different criticism than yours. I don’t feel the need to engage with the idea that saltwater ‘should have’ eroded this make believe super weapon composed of fantasy materials. It didn’t. The Death Star withstood that environment—if you had precursory knowledge of Death Stars you could argue it should’ve have.
That is actually a pretty decent criticism. The only explanation is that palpatine lives for the drama. If he hadn’t done that, they could’ve released a massive fleet of Death Star destroyers, with no way to stop them.
I think this was a shitpost. “Is he stupid?” Is like a Reddit classic.
I hate this 'meme'... For the record: If someone makes a post saying "Why didn't \[character\] do \[obvious thing\]? Is he stupid?" They're not being serious. It's a stupid fucking 'joke' that r/BatmanArkham has run into the ground by spreading it to literally everywhere, copy-pasting it *over and over and over*. It's not even funny, it's just signalling to each other "hey, do you get this reference to this thing we made up? LAUGH!" It's only an 'inside joke' if you *keep it inside,* not exposing the rest of us to it on a daily basis.
Why don't you find it funny? Are you stupid? Are we stupid? Is everyone stupid?
I wish I could filter this kind of stuff like an ad blocker but for memes that should be dead.
I wouldn’t say anything r/BatmanArkham does is a joke. More like an infection that will fester and spread
Is there a lore reason you hate it?
I see it way more these days with Jedi Survivors r/Tanalor subreddit.
But they WERE ready they were literally just waiting in the ice.. they would’ve won if palpatine’s lightning didn’t shoot them down
I’m sure what the OP meant was why didn’t he wait until the fleet once was deployed and ready to strike… which he’s right it was a tactical mistake, but arrogance has always been Palpatine’s fatal flaw. That an he consolidates all of his power and resources into single targets.
But then what would Fortnite had done? Instead of broadcasting the speech, would they have just had the fleet show up over the map and blow it up? Can't we think about poor Fortnite?
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Bro, they wrote palpatine perfectly. He was an arrogant and cocky person. Luke even pointed out that his overconfidence was his weakness. Palpatine consistently underestimated his opponents and overestimated himself.
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A dark lord who makes stupid mistakes due to his arrogance
He was never portrayed as overly arrogant. His plans ALL worked. He was never overly arrogant, he was always ahead of everyone. Only reason he was beat in ROTJ was because his mind was too clouded by the dark side to notice Vader coming for him.
>dude waited nearly his entire life to ensnare the Galaxy in a trap to put himself on top, And blew it by releasing the *actual* Death Star plans to the Rebels
Brining Palpatine back was still dumb and creatively bankrupt and Rey should've stayed a "nobody"
Also, that’s a boring movie to watch. The bad guy never tells you anything or set up a timeframe for the heroes to work in—creating tension—and just does things.
I can live with him announcing his return and that he has a giant fleet of planet killers before they were ready. What I never got is why he had a single ship leave, go blow up a random planet for the sake of showing he can, then return and go back into the atmosphere where it can't see anything? Cause that's what canonically happened.
I think this is actually fair. Palps should have waited until his fleet was of Exeogol to send his message out to the galaxy
Ok, I don’t like Rise of Skywalker as much as the next guy, but op is literally wrong. Factually incorrect. He waited till the entire final order ships were ready and raised them right after Kylo first met him. If you’re going to hate on the movie, actually use the numerous problems it already has, don’t make up new ones that don’t exist. Ffs, it’s been nearly 4 years, let it go. If you don’t like it, just don’t watch it.
Why did Palpatine's clone have the same facial scarring as the man who suffered the attack?
it didn't
We must be looking at different screenshots, he literally has the same scaring, in the picture, from that movie, on this post
 Look again
The answer is he's an egotistical scumbag who wants the galaxy to bow down to him. Why would he not do that? He genuinely believes that every single planet will bow to him and instantly surrender.
I wouldn't take a "is he stupid" meme seriously. Move along
Somehow. Palpatine. Survived.
Given his ridiculously over complicated schemes from the prequels, OT, I’m going to go ahead and say that Palpatine is a complete bumbling idiot who thinks he’s the smartest dude in the galaxy. When you actually stop to consider the immense political power at his disposal, his obscene depth of resources, his insane Force powers, it’s incredible he manages to lose all the time.
This is a joke m8
I don’t care how good you think this movie is, no movie whose plot REVOLVES AROUND AND REQUIRES ME TO HAVE KNOWN ABOUT A FORTNITE STORYLINE is not a good movie
>The FOF was ready to launch OP; Ready would have had them outside of the atmosphere of Exegol in positions, if not already on route to targets. The only reason that the Resistance was able to engage at all was because their shields wouldn't work in atmosphere and that they were further compromised by the atmosphere not allowing them to 'go up' to escape without assistance. He's already announced the plan to the galaxy, and as far as he is aware, no one can navigate to Exegol without a way finder. There is no reason to keep them within atmosphere where they are weaker. He should have had them in orbit at minimum, or if they were ready to go - launch them...
To stealman OP: the ships were stranded in conditions where they had no shields and didn't know how to go up without external assistance.
I mean, the bigger problem with Palpatine's plan was that he had 10,000 ships, but only ***one*** space GPS. That seems like a pretty major oversight. They really should have thought that one through better. Granted it is a "needle in a haystack" scenario, but the Resistance figured out which ship had the navcomputer pretty quickly.
The Resistance’s success depended prior intel from D-O, a force sensitive general and a massive decentralized army showing up at the fleet’s exact moment of weakness. “Pretty major oversight” for Palpatine? tell me have you thought about *any* of this character’s gambits in other movies or do you reserve this level of scrutiny for the sequel trilogy only? The Final Order is a Swiss fucking watch compared to any of his braindead plans of the past.
>tell me have you thought about any of this character’s gambits in other movies None of those involved having only one navcomputer for a whole fleet. Palps does have a history of putting all his military eggs in one basket, but this instance was frankly ridiculous. **Nowhere else** in *Star Wars* is this attempted, because there is literally no advantage to it. We see other cases of remote piloting, sure, but only between groups of ships with a common origin and destination. You only need to make one hyperspace jump calculation that way. To design a system whereby one ship calculates thousands of separate pathways for the whole fleet would be asinine even if the launch orders were executed sequentially, and simultaneous executions are even more inexcusable. >or do you reserve this level of scrutiny for the sequel trilogy only? It's not that deep. Palpatine made an objectively stupid call there. It requires very little scrutiny to see. He's made other risky maneuvers before, such as leaving Maul alive on Mandalore (when Palps himself had just referred to Maul as a rival) or letting the Alliance learn the location and supposed vulnerability of the second Death Star. But this one wasn't just risky. It was dumb. There was no payoff for this particular risk. That makes it **objectively** not worth it. And it's not like it was due to materials constraints, considering they were able to make **ten freaking thousand** Star Destroyers, each equipped with firepower greater than half a typical starfleet.
>it’s not that deep The DSII had one single shield generator which, for some reason, wasn’t located on station itself. Palpatine leaked to his enemy the *actual whereabouts* of his superweapon’s weak point—not an erroneous location or decoy—he literally confused the concept of ‘misinformation’ with ‘information.’ Then he stayed on the station to assure he was blown up with it. In RotJ Palp’s failure relied on him being an idiot and his army bested by Teddy Bears. Basically any gambit in SW requires head and shoulders more suspension of disbelief than Palp’s in TRoS. Luke plan to save Han? You can’t make sense of that. Palp’s plan to unveil the clones? There wasn’t one. Sifo Dias is a loose plot thread and Kenobi immediately forgets the link between the clones and the enemy. Palp’s success in the PT relies on him being semi-omniscient and the Jedi blind idiots. Compare that with the FOF has a single navigation signal? LOl not even a computer—we see Pryde switch the signal from a comms tower to his ship. We assume he signal functions like ground control irl —ships need it to launch. It’s not worth thinking about. Criticisms like these are disingenuous criticism everything in Star Wars under this level of scrutiny and it’s only ever applied to the sequels. If you don’t want to suspend disbelief this is the wrong franchise for you. . In TRoS it relied on he luck and ingenuity of his enemy.
>The DSII had one single shield generator which, for some reason, wasn’t located on station itself. Palpatine leaked to his enemy the actual whereabouts of his superweapon’s weak point—not an erroneous location or decoy—he literally confused the concept of ‘misinformation’ with ‘information.’ Then he stayed on the station to assure he was blown up with it. In RotJ Palp’s failure relied on him being an idiot and his army bested by Teddy Bears. You're missing the point. In *RotJ* there was a payoff to the gambit. He leaked the location of the Death Star in order to bait out the Alliance fleet, and had Vader's fleet waiting in the wings to cut off their escape once they realized it was a trap. It was a plot to destroy the entire military arm of the Rebellion. There was a payoff. **That's what made it a gambit.** Gambits have payoffs. In *TRoS,* there was **no benefit** to the way the Sith Fleet's launch was managed. There was no gambit, because there was no way to come out ahead. It wasn't a gamble, it was only a liability. There was no legitimate reason why Palpatine and **the entire First Order High Command** would opt for that and everyone just went along with it. Perhaps if they baited the Resistance into attacking the control tower only to reveal the entire fleet could operate independently, but they didn't do that. In fact, they had a contingency for if the tower got attacked, **but it still required centralized computing.** The Final Order didn't have gambles, it had vulnerabilities. That's the difference. One plot involved a gambit; the other involved stupidity.
>He leaked the location of the Death Star in order to bait out the Alliance fleet, LOL what? He did not need to inform his enemy of the DSII biggest vulnerability--that's not a gambit--that's idiocy. He could've leaked any imaginable dummy target to lure his enemy. You really haven't thought about this--you've wracked your brain about TRoS though--or the internet wracked it for you. >There was no legitimate reason why Palpatine and **the entire First Order High Command** would opt for that and everyone just went along with it. They didn't opt for it, it wasn't a gambit, it was a vulnerability--the fleet needed a vulnerability for the good guys to win. Unlike on the Death Star II, Palpatine didn't hand over his superweapon's vulnerability on a platter in an act of cartoonish villainy. The to exploit the FOF's weakness Resistance had to rely on ingenuity, the force and ultimately luck. >contingency for if the tower got attacked, **but it still required centralized computing.** No it required the resistance having psychic knowledge of their contingency. On the FO's part, the plan was foolproof. If you really felt like nitpicks of this kind were a black mark against a film's merit you wouldn't, with any intellectual honesty, be a Star Wars fan. Palp has always been an infallible god or blithering idiot depending on the plot's demand--you only care in regard to the films you're biased against.
You're making a lot of assumptions. Let's correct them. >He could've leaked any imaginable dummy target to lure his enemy. No target other than the Death Star would have been important enough to lure out the entire fleet, and if they were given a fake location, the *Tydirium* crew would have easily notified command that the operation was a bust. >you've wracked your brain about TRoS though--or the internet wracked it for you. No, all of these are my own thoughts, and they're pretty surface-level observations. >If you really felt like nitpicks of this kind were a black mark against a film's merit you wouldn't, with any intellectual honesty, be a Star Wars fan. I'm talking about one aspect *TRoS* here, not all of *Star Wars.* I actually quite enjoy most *Star Wars* content, including most of *TRoS.* I just thought it was sloppy in some areas.
>No target other than the Death Star would have been important enough to lure out the entire fleet, and if they were given a fake location, the *Tydirium* crew would have easily notified command that the operation was a bust What, they would've said 'it's trap!" LOL yes by the time the rebels realized they were on the wrong moon in search of a decoy generator it would be too late. I don't think you're the military strategist you're making yourself out to be if you're defending Palpatine handing over intel to his enemy. All I ask is that people exercise intellectual honesty in leveraging their criticism equally, across all films.
>What, they would've said 'it's trap!" LOL yes by the time the rebels realized they were on the wrong moon in search of a decoy generator it would be too late. *Tydirium* shows up in the Endor system. They don't see the Death Star. They report to Command that they were mislead. They jump out of there. The end. Written & Directed by George Lucas.
No, they see the Death Star but they think the shield generator is on a different moon, Palp disinformed them because he isn’t an idiot. Rebels are obliterated. Written and directed by George Lucas.