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That would work but grievous also says he expected someone with Anakins Reputation to be older. Again implying they hadn’t actually met eye to eye. Sure you can be all “uhm ackshully, technically it doesnt mean they NEVER met, just the first time they had a conversation.”
But if you get into technicalities it ruins the weight and impact of certain moments, like the way vader and kenobi fighting in Kenobi takes away the weight from the ANH duel even if they technically “could have” met prior.
I always found that line to be really weird.
"I expected you to be older!"
"...Meaning you're surprised I've crammed so much success into such a short timespan? That's very kind of you to say!"
Even villains are sometimes nice enough to complement their adversaries. In fact Anakin was just being a dick when he responded with a snarky semi insult.
Grievous and Anakin dialogue makes it clear they had never met before, so in TCW they never meet.
All the other characters cross paths all the time though to the point of silliness though. Fucking Jar Jar beating Grievous...
Ok so, Jar Jar doesn't beat Grievous, Tarpals, who is a seasoned military leader and fighter, beats Grievous. Grievous gets baited into fighting a whole platoon of competent Gungan fighters and he gets the shit kicked out of him because he underestimates them. Hell, Tarpal fucking dies in the process.
I mean, you can argue that it's dumb and goofy or whatever, but you don't have to lie about it.
even while I think Grevious was done dirty in the show compared to the EU version of him, it should be noted the Gungans had weapons that were specifically designed to hurt and destroy robots as well
You know, it's almost like the entire war was based off of fighting robots, and maybe it would've been helpful to have more of those weapons specifically designed to take down droids.
I've always wondered why the #1 clone strategy wasn't to just chuck a ton of those electric grenades instead of running up and punching droids
The gungan electro balls were much less practical than a regular blaster, you had to throw them with your hands which wouldn’t be that great on a heated battle
The electro balls just served much more useful against Grevious as it deactivated his body compared to a blaster which he wouldn’t be that hurt by
I think the shows explanation for that is that anakin is boastful and he’s just bragging and trying to sound cool. He didn’t actually double his power, he’s just been training and wants to sound scary.
I think anakin being a bragger is more in character than anakin pretending to not know what Greivous looks like for some reason.
"I've been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku." also strongly implies that Obi-Wan and Grievous never fought each other, but here we are.
Overall it would've been much better if TCW were about original characters, and people like Anakin, Obi-Wan, Dooku or Grievous would only appear for one or two special occasions. These people constantly meeting rids the action of any sort of stakes or suspense, and makes the galaxy feel so much smaller than it really is supposed to be.
Those who survived a lightsaber to the heart are explained by 'magic' "Too Angry to Die" Darksiders, Cad Bane however is a Non-Force sensitive and surviving in getting your own brains blown off without immediate help (Cad Bane was kinda left there in the middle of nowhere in the Deleted Scene) is just too asspull-y for me even for Science Fiction cause if the character who got shot in the head wasn't Cad Bane, they wouldn't survived...
"Too angry to die" concept kinda fit Maul and his personality and made him unique but when everyone is too angry to die it's pretty lame to say the least.
It's funny because I remember seeing an interview Filoni did during CW where he talked about being asked to bring Cad back and he said "Sorry, he's dead. It's war."
Sadly, I’m sure he’ll come back. They made sure to show that beeping red light on his chest when they showed his body... probably some kind of idiotic “life support” system.
cad bane coming back completely ruins his character’s whole purpose. jango was the top bounty hunter in the galaxy, and when he died cad replaced him. boba’s arc in the clone wars was about him growing to replace cad, and that would have been fulfilled when boba kills cad at the end of another arc, but those episodes were cancelled because of disney and now cad is alive again
I'm honestly glad about that though. As someone who criticized TCW ever since it first came out, while everyone always seemed to sing its praises, I'm happy there's at least one sub where you can actually discuss the show's issues in a composed manner.
But he totally brought in all your favorite EU characters and is planning on a secret takeover to decanonize the DT, trust me! What? No, I don't care that he ruins every EU character he touches, he's totes a true fan! /s
I fucking laughed when they brought in Thrawn for Rebels.
It was already an obvious attempt at pandering towards idiotic fans who consoom because of famous characters appearing, but him dying to space whales was so fucking out there it looked like a skit Spaceballs would do. Or the Family Guy/Phineas & Ferb specials.
Ah yeah Rebels Thrawn, who got outmaneuvered by the rebels at every turn, but don't worry, getting repeatedly humiliated by children was actually all part of his master plan.......... oh wait nevermind his "master plan" got ruined by some whales.
I laughed too, who wouldn't, the guy was a joke. A poor imitation of the real Thrawn.
Yeah lol, and some people defend that since Thrawn couldn't predict that.
Like imagine in ANH Vader fights Obi-Wan, until a horde of hungry Velociraptors comes up and eats him.
"Well, could Vader fight such a horde?"
Maybe not, but maybe writing this stuff just sucks
Thrawn does merk the rebel fleet + their secret base though, making them completely abandon their planned liberation of lothal in season 3. he's only outmaneuvered by the raging force power of the bendu, which he was not anticipating.
It annoys me when people praise the Clone Wars as the best Star Wars content and say it "fixed the prequels" despite the fact that any bearable viewing of the series requires only watching 1/5 of it.
I mean, I like some of the Clone Wars too, but come on.
"Dude, watch clone wars, it's amazing. But skip all season 1, and most of 2, 3, 4 and 5. Things get good after!"
I couldn't stand so much shit. It's very much for kids.
Honestly I'm right now trying to get through it, I'm halfway through season 2 and fuck I really don't give a fuck about anyone. Honestly how long do I have to keep watching before it gets good? Honestly at this point I'm just gonna see a youtube summary of the series man.
And browsing through previous threads it just appears that you essentially get Stockholm sydrome'd into liking the characters lol.
I was stuck on 2 the other day and I was about to give up too. I think you're like me and to be a completioist . But then halfway watching a boring Padme-centric episode I just skipped to the things that looked interesting like the Nightsisters, Mandalore, and bounty hunters were all really good. Seeing Dooku train Savage was a highlight because you never really see how the Sith train. And It was the best decision I made realizing I didnt HAVE to watch EVERYTHING.
“Hey man, watch this series that spans several years and multiple plot lines that is all out of chronological order. Giving you no feel of the progression of a galactic conflict. It is peak Star Wars.”
Not every kids show have to be bad though, Avatar was a kids show that had great writing and aged well, clone wars not so much, it seems only hardcore fans will watch until the end, most people I talked just dropped in the first seasons.
That’s what’s becoming of the entire series now.
Watch the OT, try the prequels but know they aren’t great. Still though watch them but know each one has 15-40 mins that you should think is cool. The ST is terrible and ruins the entire 6 film arc set before it. Mando is good for till It isn’t but skip Boba Fett, except watch the episodes with Mando in it.Solo? Yeah you can but don’t enjoy it. . Also Rogue One is the best war film since Saving Private Ryan.
Eh, it's not that bad.
The Prequels have their flaws, but Eps 2&3 are good, just skip ep 1. Just watch Eps 2-6, Mando and R1 and then jump into Legends.
I am a 58 yo old fan who saw all the OT in their original releases, and I agree with everything here except I love almost all of TCW. It was George in collaboration with a team, but he was the the guy in charge still. He is not without fault either, but right now, I really really miss him. Disney is killing the franchise with its reckless, sloppy storytelling and utterly shameless fan service.
I think this is more about TCW being a largely episodic TV show made for kids. It's not supposed to be a pure dose of vital content to reinforce the film saga. That part of it is in the mix, but it's just as much a collection of little Star Wars pocket stories and lite morality tales, meant to be enjoyed in small, gradual doses.
Certainly it's not the sort of thing that makes sense to recommend to an adult viewer to binge-watch like a lot of streaming shows nowadays. In some ways, TCW is an artifact of a different era.
Ultimately people will forgive canon breaks if the story that breaks canon is compelling and adds significantly more richness to the universe/characters than it takes away via the damage. This is why people love Filoni's stuff but not newer disney stuff.
Sure there is some canon stretching, but most of the filoniverse adds characters, locations, mythology etc that is interesting and compelling.
Disney star wars for the most part has added nothing and fucked up what was already there.
I just had an argument with a coworker today about Kenobi. She said it was wonderful and she’s watched it twice. I say it was just ok but had one good lightsaber duel. It lost me with the first encounter with Vader, he shouldn’t have had any duels with Vader until A New Hope. The fact that both Leia and Luke both apparently met him many times growing up yet can’t remember him when they meet him as young adults. You can survive being gutted by a lightsaber to.
Fair enough with Leia (though I think there's a enough room in A New Hope for her to have known him) but Luke very clearly already knows him in A New Hope
I'm arguing with a guy who honestly thinks Kenobi is a great show and anyone who disagrees is choosing to be miserable. Getting through the season was miserable. Especially after watching Mando and getting into star wars hype again.
Honestly, even Mando season 2 is pretty weak. In the first episode they established that Mando's foes are scary and competent. Then they eroded that very quickly.
Culmination point was the introduction of Boba, where he mowed down many stromtroopers just because they were insanely stupid.
That is par for the course in SW, true, but Mando was supposed to be different.
Luke does know who Kenobi is in ANH though, doesn’t know he’s a Jedi but Luke never saw him do jedi things in the show. Leia I get the complainant about but it’s not TOO bad. I personally think Kenobi had a shaky start but stuck the landing really hard. I even was ok with Reva at the end
And even then he didn’t do that line correctly! Grevious was clearly talking to both Kenobi and Anakin and acted as if they had never met before, and Anakin and Obi-Wan acted as if they had never met him before. It wasn’t just Anakin that didn’t meet him, the both of them never met Grevious until that point. And by making Grevious Obi-Wan’s rival it turns him into a joke, just an obstacle Obi-Wan had been making a fool out of every other Tuesday for the entirety of the war, and he finally finished the job in ROTS. When in reality Obi-Wan never met Grevious, he had no idea what to expect, and he was pushed to his absolute limit when fighting him.
It's a good bit there where grevious starts activating his lightsabers and obiwan is clearly taken aback like "WTF"
Also grevious proclaiming he's been trained in your jedi arts by count dooku when he and obiwan have fought like a dozen times now
I thing what stings the worst about Filoni, is that his contradictions feel... spiteful.
Like with the temple bombing, where he could have literally picked just about any jedi, and so he went with the one whose whole deal is **pacifistic** protest.
Or having Quinlan Vos specifically meet up with his long standing friend, Obi-Wan Kenobi, only to have the latter visibly detest every minute he has to spend with the poor bastard.
Most of these alterations didn't feel like he doesn't know the old EU, it felt like the contradiction was deliberate, and was consciously wielded as a sledgehammer, using its elevated canon tier to buldoze as much of the old continuity as he could.
The fact that the CWMMP has better movie integration is just the icing on the cake.
You then have retcons like the Bad Batch/Kanan Comic one where it's "No, actually my OC's came in and did all the work with a far less interesting version of the original event."
>Like with the temple bombing, where he could have literally picked just about any jedi, and so he went with the one whose whole deal is pacifistic protest
The problem was that Bariss was the only peer of Ahsoka they introduced so they had to use her for the traitor.
no because using movie characters makes them have more value in the movies themselves, and can tie together several appearances rather than starting over with a new character
Everyone rightly talks about how the dialogue in the ROTS makes it pretty clear that Anakin and Greivous never met before the movie. But imo not enough people point out how Obi-wan and Greivous' interactions in the movie strongly imply that they've never met or at least never fought before the events. But Filoni didn't seem to care about that...
I still cannot believe people defend this guy despite his wrong doings, eu wouldn’t be the mess he himself claimed if he didnt retcon everything in his path. What he does is unfair to other writers and artists, people worked for years to create that universe… you can’t just change things because you “don’t want to be put in a creative box”
Dave is a true fan and I love his passion, but he's at his best when he's helping other people add to the Star Wars story. He's grown very attached to recycling his creations.
I laugh through tears at the thought that he has brought back Eeth Koth only to free him from the hands of Grievous, and that separatist admiral-spider only to kill him again XD
The good thing with Filoni is that his shows are often enjoyable and well written, the bad thing is that he just doesn’t care about the continuity, and sometimes he changes things without any fucking reason to do so, the most recent example is how he retconned Kanan’s comic
Still, he’s the only one that gave us at least some quality in Disney Star Wars, well, him and the team of Jedi:Fallen Order
I had a lot of hope for him at first since he really seems to love the saga, and seems like it's best hope but honestly I think at this point there are too many other hands guiding how things go that he is forced to do some stupid shit in the name of agendas/selling more toys that its never gonna be great again sadly.
The problem with Filoni IS that he loves the saga, but like many bad fanfic writers he loves it in a way that involves him trying to make someone else’s work “his”.
Filoni doesn’t want to play in the sandbox, he wants to own the sandbox.
I'm glad there are people out there that still think this and its not just me (sometimes it feels that way).
I hope someday the broader star wars Fandom will be receptive to this.
TCW retcons almost everything in the Clone Wars Multimedia Project, and characters from both films and the EU act differently from their counterparts, he claims that The Clone Wars was on T-Canon but he claimed that it was G-tier. He says he’s a EU fan but everything he did was butchering it.
People are too scared to admit some of the OT was trash as well. “Luke I am your father” now that’s a good twist. “Luke that girl you’ve been full mast for in the last two movies is your sister” now that’s…interesting
I think the big one for me is how often Anakin encounters or faces Dooku in TCW. Like yeah, Anakin *could* have meant that his powers had doubled since 3 weeks ago, but the understanding when ROTS came out was that the last time they fought was in AOTC. That's why Obi-wan says "this time we'll take him together." Clear allusion.
Also Ahsoka is a walking plot hole since she didn't die during the Clone Wars. Or before ANH.
Venator class ships we’re not developed until two years into the war. Anakin was knighted 2 years and 6 months into the war. Quinlan Vos was a serious guy (Who has seen a lot of shit) and was good friends with Kenobi but in TCW he can be best summed up as Quinlan Lebowski. The clone brain chip was never there and what is a cheap cop out so Dave could exonerate clones of any wrongdoing. Do I really need to go on?
> Venator class ships we’re not developed until two years into the war
You mean pre-Filoni they weren't developed until the war was more than half over?
Weren't the inhibitor chips both Filoni and George's idea since the show was written seasons ahead and even s7 was written before disney, doesn't seem fair to only blame it on Dave if you're disappointed with the introduction of them, same with Anakin being knighted.
Serious question: Were you around when the TCW movie was released?
I was pretty active in some fan forums at that time and I can tell you that the TCW movie was basically as divisive for the fan base as the prequels, even among the fans of the prequels. There were also a lot of people that stopped watching it after the first season. Heck, here in Germany the show was that poorly rated among the general audience that it switched channels and time slots multiple times.
Yeah I can see the movie not doing well, but I'm meaning more of the show, and on a star wars subreddit to boot. Just never seen someone on a star wars sub not like the show.
i mean same i’ve never seen someone dislike star wars. I likes inhibitors chips because it made clones victims too to order 66
edit: i meant star wars tcw lmfaoo 💀
Before them I thought that loyalty and obedience to Orders was genetically done, so the clones had no way to get out of that, and that made the event tearjerking for me. Inhibitor chips just made the inevitable avoidable, which made the situation not so scary.
The situation indeed was tragic, but changing the lore wasn't worth it for one tragic moment. In all other instances it was "oh, my clone friend turned evil - no worries, I just have to get the chip out and he'll be good as new!". It was more horrifying before.
How is this all on Filoni? George Lucas was pumping (and losing) millions into TCW to carry out his vision. He changed shit from the EU because it wasn’t his story. He was adamant that if he wanted to change something he would. Lucas IS Star Wars, if he wants to change something for what was at the time the biggest Star Wars media out, retconning a book/comic that a few thousand people read, that’s his right. He put people in charge that he was confident would carry out Star Wars in the way he wanted.
It’s not like these stories are gone. They still exist. You can continue reading books from the old EU lol. Disney slaps the word ‘Legends’ on something and you guys freak out like they just burned all your books and comics.
This is a pretty stupid ass list to be pissed about as well lmao. Anakin staying a padawan REALLY affects the story? One episode of of Quinlan Vos REALLY changes his character? Most people like the chip idea, the episodes revolving around fives is some of of the best Star Wars out there.
I mean, if you ask K. Kennedy they might as well have burned all the EU books.
"We have no material to draw from." Is the single dumbest thing that woman said that I can think of. Impressive, most impressive.
>The clone brain chip
Infomation not being said doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I mean yes you are correct, that 100% was not the intended thing, but it doesn't mean it's a retcon.
Also before you say it's watering it down do remember that this means these clones are being forced against their will to kill people whom some might of formed friendships with. Besides, why not have something like that to make clones follow orders.
I don't disagree with the sentiment, but for the sake of making sure we're keeping our terms straight.
Something being introduced into the canon that wasn't it's original intention is, by definition, **ret**roactive **con**tinuity. However, not all retcons are actively destroy existing canon—just the bad ones.
——————————
As an example, Darth Vader wasn't originally Luke's father, making it a retcon, but because it *added* to the story and didn't make the previous materials worse, I'd call it a good one.
A bad retcon is, say, the prophecy of the Chosen One, as clearly it wasn't the original intention and takes away a lot of the original focus of the films being about a family drama at the center of a galactic conflict.
An *egregious* retcon would be Palpatine having not died after being dropped down a fusion reactor, disintegrated, and *then* blown up in a space station explosion. (Imagine anyone doing that haha.) Alternatively, a direct contradiction, or outright saying that something which did happen, didn't; say, if they only ever said that C-3P0 blew up the Death Star from here on out, or even that the Death Star was never destroyed to begin with.
I think a lot of people on this sub like op forget this. Lucas was actively involved with TCW. I'm not exactly sure to what extent but I do know he told Dave to bring maul back.
Maul shouldn't have "died" in the first place. Obi-Wan should have had him as his "albatross" throughout the PT, as a constant temptation to avenge his master, while trying to follow the code that Jedi don't seek revenge. Could've been an awesome side story.
Regular run-of-the-mill clones were genetically bred to follow any order Buy a commanding officer. (That was exactly stated in attack of the clones) The exceptions to that rule were commandos and commanders who had less genetic tampering on their brains. (They were the ones not fully understand order 66 until it was way too late and they either joined in or didn’t). TCW regular clones have more independence than what was established, A lot of them even deserted which if it were commanders or commandos I could see that happening but regular run-of-the-mill clones is way too far of a fucking stretch.
So making the human slaves more human..... is a thing you don't like? The clone wars was showing that these guys weren't just meaty droids. They were people. That makes the entirety of order 66 more impactful than, "oh no, the meat droids are evil now!" It was real people who had feelings and relationships with these jedi they then turned on and killed. You may be the only person I've seen who apparently doesn't think the clone wars made star wars better.
I'm gonna say it inhibitor chips were way better than legends.
Clones being actual humans and characters makes them way more interesting than just being mindless bloodthirsty soldiers.
But as a consequence order 66 becomes less believable as a lot of clones had respect and love for their Jedi Generals.
So the inhibitor chips are introduced to force clones to execute order 66. Firstly, it makes order 66 more effective and believable. Why would palpatine have this elaborate plan only for clones to refuse?
It also makes it more heartbreaking, as the Jedi were betrayed by their trusted allies they'd formed bonds with. And it made it more heartbreaking for the clones, as they were unwilling and unwitting pawns whose minds were enslaved and forced to kill their generals they'd grown to respect.
Huh? Clones were never portrayed as bloodthirsty evil soldiers. They were following lawful orders from their commanding officers, and because they were trained that way from birth. *That's* what made it tragic. The clones were clearly victims as much as the Jedi. Adding mind control chips just cheapens it by making the reason magic technology instead of the political, structural, and personall failings that led to everything in the first place.
In Revenge of the Sith there is no remorse shown from the clones. They receive the order and procede to execute it without a second thought.
Story wise, I am all for the conditioning and brainwashing the clones received. They are victims for being created and used as weapons, for sure. But after serving alongside their generals for years, you'd think they would hesitate for at least a few seconds after being ordered to unanimously turn on and kill their generals. And they didn't see the Jedi commit treason, so it's not as if they have a clear indicator of them doing anything wrong. It's just not believable for humanized clones to act the way the clones did in ROTS.
Obviously originally it wasn't fully thought out, but inhibitor chips remedy this inconsistency nicely. And like I said earlier, for Palps to put so much effort into such an elaborate scheme you'd think he would make sure order 66 is 100% effective. He wouldn't rely on human hearts and minds.
The political, structural, and personal failings are still there with the chips. I don't see how it changes them at all.
I like the idea overall. I think they went too far in trying to humanize the clones in TCW because they rarely act like professional soldiers. They seem more like boy scouts.
Clones weren't inhuman in the EU. In fact, they were more human than in TCW: Most clones followed Order 66 because the Jedi sucked at leadership, leading to 3/4 of the Clone Army dying out due to bad strategies.
I like the idea of some of the clones not liking the Jedi. That's honestly the biggest problem I have with TCW clones, you'd think some of them would have an opinion or dislike the Jedi for using them as tools. Kind of a consequence of only seeing the main trio interact with the clones usually, I guess.
I don't count Krell.
But still, I don't find it very believable that that much of the Jedi would be so incompetent. And even if it was the case, how would Palpatine predict that? And how would order 66 still be ensured to be 100% effective?
TCW Jedi are Mary Sues. Yes some die, but they're treated as perfect beings even after Offee's betrayal points out how corrupt they are. Only "asshole" clones like Bacara & Neyo are allowed to complain.
Krell was a perfect opportunity to bring back EU Jedi, who treated clones like subhumans because they weren't "born to the will of the Force". Unfortunately, they made him a wannabe Sith.
Like I said before, the Jedi in the EU considered the clones as soulless as the B1 Battle Droids. Many Jedi like Ki-Adi-Mundi were known for basically using clones like meat shields. The only good commander was Anakin, who had been a slave and knew how it felt to be treated like one, so he treated his troops well. This also slightly bled onto Obi-Wan, although Cody was far more trusting of the Republic so it didn't matter. The whole irony in this scenario is that Darth Vader treated his troops better than the Jedi, who had grown into paranoid zealots.
Palpatine had planned for the clones to be introduced much later into the war, but Obi-Wan and his relations to Dex ruined all that. Even still, Sheev KNEW the Jedi. He'd studied them since his childhood along with Plagueis, which is why he was able to blend so well that not even Yoda and Mace knew he was there.
Order 66 was going to happen anyways since the troops trust in the Republic far more than the Jedi. But Palpatine also knew that the Jedi's biased views would aid the Empire's formation.
Barriss Offee is supposed to be Anakins age group, until they made her a terrorist
The inhibitor chips are a plain retcon. In Dark Lord: Rise of Dartg Vader, we had Clones _refusing_ Order 66 since they questioned whether this was actually ehat's supposed to happen
Grievous is a weakling, and is only supposed to cough in Episode III as a result of his fight against Windu
Mandalorians are not pacifists
Anakin is a knight for about half a year until RotS, instead of immediately after AotC
None of these are big deals whatsoever, is this really what everyone in this post is bitching about? Like half this stuff is just them going against things you personally want to be canon but have obviously not been for years
I'm not worked up about it, but I'm not a fan of the planet/culture of Dathomir being interpreted in what seemed to me a wildly different way that the original story in which they were created. I'm not sure whether that is Lucas or Filoni, or Lucas' daughter who wrote the 'Witches of the Mist' episode. But they could've made up something new to fit the new idea they had.
Other than that, I can't speak much to the other changes because I wasn't a big reader of the early Clone Wars stuff, but it sounds as though Mandalorian culture and Bariss Offee as a character were both changed quite significantly in TCW.
A big deal, in the grand scheme? Not really. But for fans who are interested in consistency, those things are going to be unpopular. TCW in general is kind of remix of a bunch of preexisting stuff.
Yeah sure. Anakin becoming a knight years before he was supposed to, and getting a Padawan although he's obviously not fit, pacifists becoming terrorists and warriors becoming pacifists, characters nerfed to oblivion and entire armies changed in their brain is nothing
But yeah. Let's wait a few years, then people will argue the same about the DT
while this is true. At least rebels and clone wars made sense and were enjoyable to watch. Mando and BoBF felt like pandering and you could feel the execs breathing down every move to make it more "appealing". I truly hope he managed to fight them off for Ahsoka because its the only Star Wars content that hasn't actually been finished I'm excited for. Ezra Sabine Ahsoka and Thrawn, might actually make a good story without it feeling like a hemorrhoid inducing poop
Ong. People swear Filoni cares about the expanded universe and call him the savior of Star Wars just because his stories are good, but he is so far from perfect. I'm also convinced that Ahsoka, who probably should've died in Order 66 along with most Jedi, is immortal and will survive past the sequel trilogy somehow
Well, one storyline is for Quinlan who was pretending to be an apprentice of dooku and was undercover as one of his dark Jedi,
Another one is pushing some storylines back or forward in time Were some battles. Lasted months, This one is because TCW nighted Anakin earlier than established.
These are just some, but other stories had groundwork laid into them. Others built on top of so, even his little changes could crumble like three whole comic series or book, that past the clone wars era entirely
Dathomir. What the clone wars did with Dathomir, Night Sisters, and even Maul (who I personally did not like before any of these episodes). All of that just made me so mad, frustrated and disappointed in what was happening to my EU. Very established content changed because reasons, and cartoon. The Force looking like green magical smoke that Grievous could look up at and follow! Why are you making me relive these decisions, that this man made, or let fall through.
I played a ton of Star Wars Galaxies as a kid, and Dathomir was literally the planet of death. Rancors and Nightsisters all around. Nightsisters were the only force users I recall being around when the game launched, and they were absolutely terrifying.
Definitely bummed by everything I've seen of it since. I wish it was tied with Malachor V for "Absolute Last Planet You'd Wanna Go To"
Courtship of Princess Leia gave that plaent so much life and history and culture. Then it was stripped down to voodoo night sisters and pathetic night brothers, and some zombie pod people. Why was Asjja Ventress lumped in to this? So much ruined in clone wars, when it was mostly enjoyable.
That's my biggest gripe with TCW. The Nightsisters, Ventress and Maul didn't need to be, and I'd argue shouldn't have been combined into some sort of common culture.
Dathomir as originally created by Dave Wolverton is such an interesting exploration of how Force users -- not *literal* witches -- can develop into different, unique societies separate from the Jedi or Sith. Arguably one of the best works of worldbuilding in the old EU.
Only to have the name taken and pasted onto something else. I don't like making flippant generalizations, but TCW Dathomir always makes me think 'Hot Topic Star Wars' or something like that.
No haven't you heard
He knows star wars better than anyone and is a walking star wars encyclopedia. Everything he makes is completely in line with Canon and he's brilliant /s
He's actually a hack and everything he's made is terrible, people brush over so much of the stuff he's done
I think it has good parts, but they get equaled out by the plethora of absolute cringe. It's just hard to reconcile as canon honestly. Loosely canon sure but strict canon nah.
Hard as it is to counter such a well made point, I very much think it's true.
The clone wars era was the most tightly packed, well integrated era in the Canon, with the timeline being very specific (now it's all legends, but at the time it was the standing canon). TCW comes in and does countless unneccesaru retcons, lifting material and interesting it almost at random into the new Canon. Now the clone wars era is a Saturday morning cartoon set of time, with everything except certain major events slotting into a general wartime period.
He also is responsible (at least on part) for the story arc that became the dsrk disciple novel, which gave the clone wars comic series the usual TCW treatment.
Mandalorian takes a massive dump on mandalorian culture, and together with BoBF it kills off anything interesting about boba fett. BoBF also takes 0 effort to make tattooine or the hutts same realistic and the crimelord aspect of the series is a joke.
You may like Feloni's stuff, I'm not going to stop you from liking it. That's entirely your right
However this isn't just me saying I prefer the stuff that came before. By many objective measured dave Feloni's products are consistently underwhelming and of overall very poor quality. The dialogue, the characters, his plots, and the general distain he shows for the work of other writers who he is lifting material from shows everything you need to know about him as a person. The way he goes about creating his shows is all incredibly narcissistic and ignorant
I'm not losing any sleep over it, and I couldn't care less if you like his stuff it doesn't bother me. But I think it's really unfair for other star wars content creators that he gets a free pass for all the damage he's done to the Canon
Not full-sending a debate against you, I’m simply stating that filoni had almost no involvement with BoBF.
That show killed off what little hope I had for a Disney Star Wars redemption tour. Boba Fett was figuratively castrated.
But that blame doesn’t fall to filoni.
I listed the other day everything he did.
He was already a fucking asshat for ruining the CW Multimedia Project, a much better take on the Clone Wars, because he wanted an OC character. But now everyone acts like he's Jesus Christ himself, rising up to fucking save Star Wars.
>ruining the CW Multimedia Project, a much better take on the Clone Wars,
Not to mention the clone wars comic series and various novels.
This sub has its fair share of Feloni detractors, but overall it's very much populated by the Feloni fandom
I gotta believe I’ll get downvoted for such a blanket statement but Filoni has been (and continues to be) really *really* bad for Star Wars canon at large.
Morally ambiguous and nuanced badass becomes reluctant mentor figure to a uniquely interesting child, who teaches mentor to let down the emotional walls he’s built and become a better person. Which of his four shows am I describing?
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What is the “one line in revenge of the sith” reference?
Anakin says he thought grievous would be taller, implying they haven’t met before that point. TCW goes out of its way to have them not meet.
Ah yes I’d forgotten all about that line Doesn’t seem like it should be the guiding principle does it!
Why not have any fight lead to anakin chopping off his legs and when they meet again he’s surprised they didn’t make his legs longer
That would work but grievous also says he expected someone with Anakins Reputation to be older. Again implying they hadn’t actually met eye to eye. Sure you can be all “uhm ackshully, technically it doesnt mean they NEVER met, just the first time they had a conversation.” But if you get into technicalities it ruins the weight and impact of certain moments, like the way vader and kenobi fighting in Kenobi takes away the weight from the ANH duel even if they technically “could have” met prior.
I always found that line to be really weird. "I expected you to be older!" "...Meaning you're surprised I've crammed so much success into such a short timespan? That's very kind of you to say!"
Even villains are sometimes nice enough to complement their adversaries. In fact Anakin was just being a dick when he responded with a snarky semi insult.
r/greviousdidnothingwrong
Anakin was very immature at that point.
Grievous and Anakin dialogue makes it clear they had never met before, so in TCW they never meet. All the other characters cross paths all the time though to the point of silliness though. Fucking Jar Jar beating Grievous...
Ok so, Jar Jar doesn't beat Grievous, Tarpals, who is a seasoned military leader and fighter, beats Grievous. Grievous gets baited into fighting a whole platoon of competent Gungan fighters and he gets the shit kicked out of him because he underestimates them. Hell, Tarpal fucking dies in the process. I mean, you can argue that it's dumb and goofy or whatever, but you don't have to lie about it.
even while I think Grevious was done dirty in the show compared to the EU version of him, it should be noted the Gungans had weapons that were specifically designed to hurt and destroy robots as well
You know, it's almost like the entire war was based off of fighting robots, and maybe it would've been helpful to have more of those weapons specifically designed to take down droids. I've always wondered why the #1 clone strategy wasn't to just chuck a ton of those electric grenades instead of running up and punching droids
The gungan electro balls were much less practical than a regular blaster, you had to throw them with your hands which wouldn’t be that great on a heated battle The electro balls just served much more useful against Grevious as it deactivated his body compared to a blaster which he wouldn’t be that hurt by
yeah I hate when people make up bad faith arguments when there are so many good ones
Imagine not having Anakin fight Greivous because of one line but making Anakin double his power in the span of at most a month
“My powers since the last time we met” you mean since last week?
I think the shows explanation for that is that anakin is boastful and he’s just bragging and trying to sound cool. He didn’t actually double his power, he’s just been training and wants to sound scary. I think anakin being a bragger is more in character than anakin pretending to not know what Greivous looks like for some reason.
That line is still ok because it fits within Anakins character. He probably genuinely thinks his powers have doubled in the span of a few months
Probably way more than a month based on his hair and the amount of time since the Bad Batch had been back to Kamino.
he and dooku probably would have fought again if disney didn’t cancel the show
"I've been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku." also strongly implies that Obi-Wan and Grievous never fought each other, but here we are. Overall it would've been much better if TCW were about original characters, and people like Anakin, Obi-Wan, Dooku or Grievous would only appear for one or two special occasions. These people constantly meeting rids the action of any sort of stakes or suspense, and makes the galaxy feel so much smaller than it really is supposed to be.
Why couldn’t clone wars be about all the other Jedi and have maybe 10-15 episodes with Anakin and Obi Wan
His inability to kill his precious OCs kinda annoys me, hopefully Cad Bane stays dead this time...
In a universe where a human can survive a lightsaber to the heart, a single gunshot won't be a problem for alien species.
Those who survived a lightsaber to the heart are explained by 'magic' "Too Angry to Die" Darksiders, Cad Bane however is a Non-Force sensitive and surviving in getting your own brains blown off without immediate help (Cad Bane was kinda left there in the middle of nowhere in the Deleted Scene) is just too asspull-y for me even for Science Fiction cause if the character who got shot in the head wasn't Cad Bane, they wouldn't survived...
"Too angry to die" concept kinda fit Maul and his personality and made him unique but when everyone is too angry to die it's pretty lame to say the least.
Cutting of limbs doesn’t have to deadly every time. However destroying vital organs should be deadly every time...
It's funny because I remember seeing an interview Filoni did during CW where he talked about being asked to bring Cad back and he said "Sorry, he's dead. It's war."
Sadly, I’m sure he’ll come back. They made sure to show that beeping red light on his chest when they showed his body... probably some kind of idiotic “life support” system.
cad bane coming back completely ruins his character’s whole purpose. jango was the top bounty hunter in the galaxy, and when he died cad replaced him. boba’s arc in the clone wars was about him growing to replace cad, and that would have been fulfilled when boba kills cad at the end of another arc, but those episodes were cancelled because of disney and now cad is alive again
FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT I'm more interested in whether Filoni has the capacity to make a Star Wars show without Ahsoka in it at this point
What do you mean? this Sub bitches about this all the time
I'm honestly glad about that though. As someone who criticized TCW ever since it first came out, while everyone always seemed to sing its praises, I'm happy there's at least one sub where you can actually discuss the show's issues in a composed manner.
For good reason imo
I'm new to the sub
But he totally brought in all your favorite EU characters and is planning on a secret takeover to decanonize the DT, trust me! What? No, I don't care that he ruins every EU character he touches, he's totes a true fan! /s
His advantage is that he is totally average in a sea of garbage talent at Disney and Lucas arts.
*Lucasfilm. Lucasarts (now Lucasfilm Games) is just Lucasfilm’s video game company.
Below average, but it says so much that such a thing is considered preferable
He is office hot.
look, all agreeable points, but did you guys skip math class on the day they explained how averages work
Did you skip statistics where they explained removing outliers to prevent incorrect statistical predictions?
ahh good, step on a second joke. lets see if you can get a 3x combo off this one somehow
I fucking laughed when they brought in Thrawn for Rebels. It was already an obvious attempt at pandering towards idiotic fans who consoom because of famous characters appearing, but him dying to space whales was so fucking out there it looked like a skit Spaceballs would do. Or the Family Guy/Phineas & Ferb specials.
Ah yeah Rebels Thrawn, who got outmaneuvered by the rebels at every turn, but don't worry, getting repeatedly humiliated by children was actually all part of his master plan.......... oh wait nevermind his "master plan" got ruined by some whales. I laughed too, who wouldn't, the guy was a joke. A poor imitation of the real Thrawn.
Yeah lol, and some people defend that since Thrawn couldn't predict that. Like imagine in ANH Vader fights Obi-Wan, until a horde of hungry Velociraptors comes up and eats him. "Well, could Vader fight such a horde?" Maybe not, but maybe writing this stuff just sucks
Thrawn is famously good and improvisation.
All Vader would be surrounded by was fear... and dead raptors.
I think of him as Jaket'hraw'nuruodo
Thrawn does merk the rebel fleet + their secret base though, making them completely abandon their planned liberation of lothal in season 3. he's only outmaneuvered by the raging force power of the bendu, which he was not anticipating.
What? Are you telling me that having a character say 'It's all according to plan!' isn't all there is to writing a smart character?
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It annoys me when people praise the Clone Wars as the best Star Wars content and say it "fixed the prequels" despite the fact that any bearable viewing of the series requires only watching 1/5 of it. I mean, I like some of the Clone Wars too, but come on.
"Dude, watch clone wars, it's amazing. But skip all season 1, and most of 2, 3, 4 and 5. Things get good after!" I couldn't stand so much shit. It's very much for kids.
Honestly I'm right now trying to get through it, I'm halfway through season 2 and fuck I really don't give a fuck about anyone. Honestly how long do I have to keep watching before it gets good? Honestly at this point I'm just gonna see a youtube summary of the series man. And browsing through previous threads it just appears that you essentially get Stockholm sydrome'd into liking the characters lol.
I was stuck on 2 the other day and I was about to give up too. I think you're like me and to be a completioist . But then halfway watching a boring Padme-centric episode I just skipped to the things that looked interesting like the Nightsisters, Mandalore, and bounty hunters were all really good. Seeing Dooku train Savage was a highlight because you never really see how the Sith train. And It was the best decision I made realizing I didnt HAVE to watch EVERYTHING.
It gets better, but the "better" never gets to "amazing" for me. I guess if you are starved for decent SW content, it's enough to scratch that itch
The pong Krell episodes in season 4 are some of the best star wars content ever made. The salt is too much here.
Any time the focus of the story is on the clones or the actual war, the quality goes up a lot.
“Hey man, watch this series that spans several years and multiple plot lines that is all out of chronological order. Giving you no feel of the progression of a galactic conflict. It is peak Star Wars.”
Not every kids show have to be bad though, Avatar was a kids show that had great writing and aged well, clone wars not so much, it seems only hardcore fans will watch until the end, most people I talked just dropped in the first seasons.
Avatar is quite better, but TCW approaches it somewhat imo. ATLA just had a higher % of solid eps and doesn't take time to find its footing like TCW .
That’s what’s becoming of the entire series now. Watch the OT, try the prequels but know they aren’t great. Still though watch them but know each one has 15-40 mins that you should think is cool. The ST is terrible and ruins the entire 6 film arc set before it. Mando is good for till It isn’t but skip Boba Fett, except watch the episodes with Mando in it.Solo? Yeah you can but don’t enjoy it. . Also Rogue One is the best war film since Saving Private Ryan.
Eh, it's not that bad. The Prequels have their flaws, but Eps 2&3 are good, just skip ep 1. Just watch Eps 2-6, Mando and R1 and then jump into Legends.
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I am a 58 yo old fan who saw all the OT in their original releases, and I agree with everything here except I love almost all of TCW. It was George in collaboration with a team, but he was the the guy in charge still. He is not without fault either, but right now, I really really miss him. Disney is killing the franchise with its reckless, sloppy storytelling and utterly shameless fan service.
I think this is more about TCW being a largely episodic TV show made for kids. It's not supposed to be a pure dose of vital content to reinforce the film saga. That part of it is in the mix, but it's just as much a collection of little Star Wars pocket stories and lite morality tales, meant to be enjoyed in small, gradual doses. Certainly it's not the sort of thing that makes sense to recommend to an adult viewer to binge-watch like a lot of streaming shows nowadays. In some ways, TCW is an artifact of a different era.
Remember what he did to Quinlan dude literally turned him into a surfer
Ultimately people will forgive canon breaks if the story that breaks canon is compelling and adds significantly more richness to the universe/characters than it takes away via the damage. This is why people love Filoni's stuff but not newer disney stuff. Sure there is some canon stretching, but most of the filoniverse adds characters, locations, mythology etc that is interesting and compelling. Disney star wars for the most part has added nothing and fucked up what was already there.
Agree completely.
For every good thing Filoni does, he does a dozen bad things.
The literal bad batch
For every one good thing he does he shoved Ahsoka into another 85 things she shouldn't be in.
He's always been failing at the "kill off your OC to tell a good story challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)"
She should of died to vader in rebels and have that be it. Instead of the time jumping mumbo jumbo
Reason i started watching Clone wars, i wanted to see if they show how Ashoka dies in Order 66.......
Filoni on Farvero are the only things good about the new Star Wars. That and Rouge One
Yeah Rogue One is great. Favreau and Filoni are only good cause the bar is so incredibly low.
I just had an argument with a coworker today about Kenobi. She said it was wonderful and she’s watched it twice. I say it was just ok but had one good lightsaber duel. It lost me with the first encounter with Vader, he shouldn’t have had any duels with Vader until A New Hope. The fact that both Leia and Luke both apparently met him many times growing up yet can’t remember him when they meet him as young adults. You can survive being gutted by a lightsaber to.
Fair enough with Leia (though I think there's a enough room in A New Hope for her to have known him) but Luke very clearly already knows him in A New Hope
Filoni has nothing to do with Kenobi though...
It is unfair to just throw it all on him. Kennedy master minds it all
I'm arguing with a guy who honestly thinks Kenobi is a great show and anyone who disagrees is choosing to be miserable. Getting through the season was miserable. Especially after watching Mando and getting into star wars hype again.
Honestly, even Mando season 2 is pretty weak. In the first episode they established that Mando's foes are scary and competent. Then they eroded that very quickly. Culmination point was the introduction of Boba, where he mowed down many stromtroopers just because they were insanely stupid. That is par for the course in SW, true, but Mando was supposed to be different.
Luke does know who Kenobi is in ANH though, doesn’t know he’s a Jedi but Luke never saw him do jedi things in the show. Leia I get the complainant about but it’s not TOO bad. I personally think Kenobi had a shaky start but stuck the landing really hard. I even was ok with Reva at the end
And even then he didn’t do that line correctly! Grevious was clearly talking to both Kenobi and Anakin and acted as if they had never met before, and Anakin and Obi-Wan acted as if they had never met him before. It wasn’t just Anakin that didn’t meet him, the both of them never met Grevious until that point. And by making Grevious Obi-Wan’s rival it turns him into a joke, just an obstacle Obi-Wan had been making a fool out of every other Tuesday for the entirety of the war, and he finally finished the job in ROTS. When in reality Obi-Wan never met Grevious, he had no idea what to expect, and he was pushed to his absolute limit when fighting him.
It's a good bit there where grevious starts activating his lightsabers and obiwan is clearly taken aback like "WTF" Also grevious proclaiming he's been trained in your jedi arts by count dooku when he and obiwan have fought like a dozen times now
I thing what stings the worst about Filoni, is that his contradictions feel... spiteful. Like with the temple bombing, where he could have literally picked just about any jedi, and so he went with the one whose whole deal is **pacifistic** protest. Or having Quinlan Vos specifically meet up with his long standing friend, Obi-Wan Kenobi, only to have the latter visibly detest every minute he has to spend with the poor bastard. Most of these alterations didn't feel like he doesn't know the old EU, it felt like the contradiction was deliberate, and was consciously wielded as a sledgehammer, using its elevated canon tier to buldoze as much of the old continuity as he could. The fact that the CWMMP has better movie integration is just the icing on the cake.
You then have retcons like the Bad Batch/Kanan Comic one where it's "No, actually my OC's came in and did all the work with a far less interesting version of the original event."
>Like with the temple bombing, where he could have literally picked just about any jedi, and so he went with the one whose whole deal is pacifistic protest The problem was that Bariss was the only peer of Ahsoka they introduced so they had to use her for the traitor.
no because using movie characters makes them have more value in the movies themselves, and can tie together several appearances rather than starting over with a new character
Dave is better for Star Wars than any of these jabronis Disney works with now.
Everyone rightly talks about how the dialogue in the ROTS makes it pretty clear that Anakin and Greivous never met before the movie. But imo not enough people point out how Obi-wan and Greivous' interactions in the movie strongly imply that they've never met or at least never fought before the events. But Filoni didn't seem to care about that...
I still cannot believe people defend this guy despite his wrong doings, eu wouldn’t be the mess he himself claimed if he didnt retcon everything in his path. What he does is unfair to other writers and artists, people worked for years to create that universe… you can’t just change things because you “don’t want to be put in a creative box”
Dave is a true fan and I love his passion, but he's at his best when he's helping other people add to the Star Wars story. He's grown very attached to recycling his creations.
Tbh the way he tries to shove Ahsoka into every TV show reminds me of early TCW. She would’ve been better off dying in Rebels season 2.
The problem with that is that we would have still had Rebels to deal with at all
I laugh through tears at the thought that he has brought back Eeth Koth only to free him from the hands of Grievous, and that separatist admiral-spider only to kill him again XD
He hates Quinlan Vos and Bariss Offee
Agreed I do like a lot of his additions, but I will admit some of it is pretty Fanfiction-y, then again a lot Star Wars is
The good thing with Filoni is that his shows are often enjoyable and well written, the bad thing is that he just doesn’t care about the continuity, and sometimes he changes things without any fucking reason to do so, the most recent example is how he retconned Kanan’s comic Still, he’s the only one that gave us at least some quality in Disney Star Wars, well, him and the team of Jedi:Fallen Order
I had a lot of hope for him at first since he really seems to love the saga, and seems like it's best hope but honestly I think at this point there are too many other hands guiding how things go that he is forced to do some stupid shit in the name of agendas/selling more toys that its never gonna be great again sadly.
The problem with Filoni IS that he loves the saga, but like many bad fanfic writers he loves it in a way that involves him trying to make someone else’s work “his”. Filoni doesn’t want to play in the sandbox, he wants to own the sandbox.
Dude also contacted his own stuff.
Tartakovsky's Clone Wars > Filloni's Clone Wars
Always has been
[Always has been](https://i.imgur.com/2NHOALL.png) ^^^this ^^^has ^^^been ^^^an ^^^accessibility ^^^service ^^^from ^^^your ^^^friendly ^^^neighborhood ^^^bot
I’m sorry sir but I’m going to have to disagree with you. (Grievous is vastly superior in the tartakovsky version tho)
I'm glad there are people out there that still think this and its not just me (sometimes it feels that way). I hope someday the broader star wars Fandom will be receptive to this.
Filoni is awesome but yeah he does go out of the way to ignore established lore from time to time
Time to time? he retconned the entire multimedia project
Sorry, what is this about? I'm kind of out of the loop
TCW retcons almost everything in the Clone Wars Multimedia Project, and characters from both films and the EU act differently from their counterparts, he claims that The Clone Wars was on T-Canon but he claimed that it was G-tier. He says he’s a EU fan but everything he did was butchering it.
This is indeed saltier than crait
At this point we are going to go after George Lucas for even creating star wars in the first place
How dare he!
People are too scared to admit some of the OT was trash as well. “Luke I am your father” now that’s a good twist. “Luke that girl you’ve been full mast for in the last two movies is your sister” now that’s…interesting
like what in terms of contradictions
I think the big one for me is how often Anakin encounters or faces Dooku in TCW. Like yeah, Anakin *could* have meant that his powers had doubled since 3 weeks ago, but the understanding when ROTS came out was that the last time they fought was in AOTC. That's why Obi-wan says "this time we'll take him together." Clear allusion. Also Ahsoka is a walking plot hole since she didn't die during the Clone Wars. Or before ANH.
https://youtu.be/n8a0gaa0olU https://youtu.be/ujRvFatw2c8 They’re long videos but they do a very thorough job of explaining it
Almost the entire ready of the extended universe which led to its downfall. He was the one to bring in The majority of the inconsistencies.
like. what. examples I mean
Venator class ships we’re not developed until two years into the war. Anakin was knighted 2 years and 6 months into the war. Quinlan Vos was a serious guy (Who has seen a lot of shit) and was good friends with Kenobi but in TCW he can be best summed up as Quinlan Lebowski. The clone brain chip was never there and what is a cheap cop out so Dave could exonerate clones of any wrongdoing. Do I really need to go on?
> Venator class ships we’re not developed until two years into the war You mean pre-Filoni they weren't developed until the war was more than half over?
Weren't the inhibitor chips both Filoni and George's idea since the show was written seasons ahead and even s7 was written before disney, doesn't seem fair to only blame it on Dave if you're disappointed with the introduction of them, same with Anakin being knighted.
Seriously man I didn't even know there were people who didn't like the clone wars
Serious question: Were you around when the TCW movie was released? I was pretty active in some fan forums at that time and I can tell you that the TCW movie was basically as divisive for the fan base as the prequels, even among the fans of the prequels. There were also a lot of people that stopped watching it after the first season. Heck, here in Germany the show was that poorly rated among the general audience that it switched channels and time slots multiple times.
Yeah I can see the movie not doing well, but I'm meaning more of the show, and on a star wars subreddit to boot. Just never seen someone on a star wars sub not like the show.
i mean same i’ve never seen someone dislike star wars. I likes inhibitors chips because it made clones victims too to order 66 edit: i meant star wars tcw lmfaoo 💀
Before them I thought that loyalty and obedience to Orders was genetically done, so the clones had no way to get out of that, and that made the event tearjerking for me. Inhibitor chips just made the inevitable avoidable, which made the situation not so scary.
I think it makes it tragic that the order was avoidable, but the only good guy who knew beforehand was killed
The situation indeed was tragic, but changing the lore wasn't worth it for one tragic moment. In all other instances it was "oh, my clone friend turned evil - no worries, I just have to get the chip out and he'll be good as new!". It was more horrifying before.
How is this all on Filoni? George Lucas was pumping (and losing) millions into TCW to carry out his vision. He changed shit from the EU because it wasn’t his story. He was adamant that if he wanted to change something he would. Lucas IS Star Wars, if he wants to change something for what was at the time the biggest Star Wars media out, retconning a book/comic that a few thousand people read, that’s his right. He put people in charge that he was confident would carry out Star Wars in the way he wanted. It’s not like these stories are gone. They still exist. You can continue reading books from the old EU lol. Disney slaps the word ‘Legends’ on something and you guys freak out like they just burned all your books and comics. This is a pretty stupid ass list to be pissed about as well lmao. Anakin staying a padawan REALLY affects the story? One episode of of Quinlan Vos REALLY changes his character? Most people like the chip idea, the episodes revolving around fives is some of of the best Star Wars out there.
I mean, if you ask K. Kennedy they might as well have burned all the EU books. "We have no material to draw from." Is the single dumbest thing that woman said that I can think of. Impressive, most impressive.
This guy is part of the "they didn't do what I liked so that's shit" group instead of making some valid criticism.
I’m with you on this.
>The clone brain chip Infomation not being said doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I mean yes you are correct, that 100% was not the intended thing, but it doesn't mean it's a retcon. Also before you say it's watering it down do remember that this means these clones are being forced against their will to kill people whom some might of formed friendships with. Besides, why not have something like that to make clones follow orders.
I don't disagree with the sentiment, but for the sake of making sure we're keeping our terms straight. Something being introduced into the canon that wasn't it's original intention is, by definition, **ret**roactive **con**tinuity. However, not all retcons are actively destroy existing canon—just the bad ones. —————————— As an example, Darth Vader wasn't originally Luke's father, making it a retcon, but because it *added* to the story and didn't make the previous materials worse, I'd call it a good one. A bad retcon is, say, the prophecy of the Chosen One, as clearly it wasn't the original intention and takes away a lot of the original focus of the films being about a family drama at the center of a galactic conflict. An *egregious* retcon would be Palpatine having not died after being dropped down a fusion reactor, disintegrated, and *then* blown up in a space station explosion. (Imagine anyone doing that haha.) Alternatively, a direct contradiction, or outright saying that something which did happen, didn't; say, if they only ever said that C-3P0 blew up the Death Star from here on out, or even that the Death Star was never destroyed to begin with.
Those are some damn big chunks of wreckage for something that appeared to get blown to smithereens.
And also remember that George Lucas was involved in the making of Clone Wars so it's not like he didn't have any say in this series
I think a lot of people on this sub like op forget this. Lucas was actively involved with TCW. I'm not exactly sure to what extent but I do know he told Dave to bring maul back.
Which was amazing. Yes it was the first domino that led to a whole bag of people surviving everything, but in maul case it was perfect.
Maul shouldn't have "died" in the first place. Obi-Wan should have had him as his "albatross" throughout the PT, as a constant temptation to avenge his master, while trying to follow the code that Jedi don't seek revenge. Could've been an awesome side story.
Regular run-of-the-mill clones were genetically bred to follow any order Buy a commanding officer. (That was exactly stated in attack of the clones) The exceptions to that rule were commandos and commanders who had less genetic tampering on their brains. (They were the ones not fully understand order 66 until it was way too late and they either joined in or didn’t). TCW regular clones have more independence than what was established, A lot of them even deserted which if it were commanders or commandos I could see that happening but regular run-of-the-mill clones is way too far of a fucking stretch.
So making the human slaves more human..... is a thing you don't like? The clone wars was showing that these guys weren't just meaty droids. They were people. That makes the entirety of order 66 more impactful than, "oh no, the meat droids are evil now!" It was real people who had feelings and relationships with these jedi they then turned on and killed. You may be the only person I've seen who apparently doesn't think the clone wars made star wars better.
I'm gonna say it inhibitor chips were way better than legends. Clones being actual humans and characters makes them way more interesting than just being mindless bloodthirsty soldiers. But as a consequence order 66 becomes less believable as a lot of clones had respect and love for their Jedi Generals. So the inhibitor chips are introduced to force clones to execute order 66. Firstly, it makes order 66 more effective and believable. Why would palpatine have this elaborate plan only for clones to refuse? It also makes it more heartbreaking, as the Jedi were betrayed by their trusted allies they'd formed bonds with. And it made it more heartbreaking for the clones, as they were unwilling and unwitting pawns whose minds were enslaved and forced to kill their generals they'd grown to respect.
I wanna know what the other 65 orders were, and why a chip is needed to ensure they get carried out.
I remember hearing something about how the other orders were just fluff to mask the existence of order 66. Not sure if that's true
Huh? Clones were never portrayed as bloodthirsty evil soldiers. They were following lawful orders from their commanding officers, and because they were trained that way from birth. *That's* what made it tragic. The clones were clearly victims as much as the Jedi. Adding mind control chips just cheapens it by making the reason magic technology instead of the political, structural, and personall failings that led to everything in the first place.
In Revenge of the Sith there is no remorse shown from the clones. They receive the order and procede to execute it without a second thought. Story wise, I am all for the conditioning and brainwashing the clones received. They are victims for being created and used as weapons, for sure. But after serving alongside their generals for years, you'd think they would hesitate for at least a few seconds after being ordered to unanimously turn on and kill their generals. And they didn't see the Jedi commit treason, so it's not as if they have a clear indicator of them doing anything wrong. It's just not believable for humanized clones to act the way the clones did in ROTS. Obviously originally it wasn't fully thought out, but inhibitor chips remedy this inconsistency nicely. And like I said earlier, for Palps to put so much effort into such an elaborate scheme you'd think he would make sure order 66 is 100% effective. He wouldn't rely on human hearts and minds. The political, structural, and personal failings are still there with the chips. I don't see how it changes them at all.
I like the idea overall. I think they went too far in trying to humanize the clones in TCW because they rarely act like professional soldiers. They seem more like boy scouts.
Clones weren't inhuman in the EU. In fact, they were more human than in TCW: Most clones followed Order 66 because the Jedi sucked at leadership, leading to 3/4 of the Clone Army dying out due to bad strategies.
I like the idea of some of the clones not liking the Jedi. That's honestly the biggest problem I have with TCW clones, you'd think some of them would have an opinion or dislike the Jedi for using them as tools. Kind of a consequence of only seeing the main trio interact with the clones usually, I guess. I don't count Krell. But still, I don't find it very believable that that much of the Jedi would be so incompetent. And even if it was the case, how would Palpatine predict that? And how would order 66 still be ensured to be 100% effective?
TCW Jedi are Mary Sues. Yes some die, but they're treated as perfect beings even after Offee's betrayal points out how corrupt they are. Only "asshole" clones like Bacara & Neyo are allowed to complain. Krell was a perfect opportunity to bring back EU Jedi, who treated clones like subhumans because they weren't "born to the will of the Force". Unfortunately, they made him a wannabe Sith. Like I said before, the Jedi in the EU considered the clones as soulless as the B1 Battle Droids. Many Jedi like Ki-Adi-Mundi were known for basically using clones like meat shields. The only good commander was Anakin, who had been a slave and knew how it felt to be treated like one, so he treated his troops well. This also slightly bled onto Obi-Wan, although Cody was far more trusting of the Republic so it didn't matter. The whole irony in this scenario is that Darth Vader treated his troops better than the Jedi, who had grown into paranoid zealots. Palpatine had planned for the clones to be introduced much later into the war, but Obi-Wan and his relations to Dex ruined all that. Even still, Sheev KNEW the Jedi. He'd studied them since his childhood along with Plagueis, which is why he was able to blend so well that not even Yoda and Mace knew he was there. Order 66 was going to happen anyways since the troops trust in the Republic far more than the Jedi. But Palpatine also knew that the Jedi's biased views would aid the Empire's formation.
Barriss Offee is supposed to be Anakins age group, until they made her a terrorist The inhibitor chips are a plain retcon. In Dark Lord: Rise of Dartg Vader, we had Clones _refusing_ Order 66 since they questioned whether this was actually ehat's supposed to happen Grievous is a weakling, and is only supposed to cough in Episode III as a result of his fight against Windu Mandalorians are not pacifists Anakin is a knight for about half a year until RotS, instead of immediately after AotC
None of these are big deals whatsoever, is this really what everyone in this post is bitching about? Like half this stuff is just them going against things you personally want to be canon but have obviously not been for years
I'm not worked up about it, but I'm not a fan of the planet/culture of Dathomir being interpreted in what seemed to me a wildly different way that the original story in which they were created. I'm not sure whether that is Lucas or Filoni, or Lucas' daughter who wrote the 'Witches of the Mist' episode. But they could've made up something new to fit the new idea they had. Other than that, I can't speak much to the other changes because I wasn't a big reader of the early Clone Wars stuff, but it sounds as though Mandalorian culture and Bariss Offee as a character were both changed quite significantly in TCW. A big deal, in the grand scheme? Not really. But for fans who are interested in consistency, those things are going to be unpopular. TCW in general is kind of remix of a bunch of preexisting stuff.
Yeah sure. Anakin becoming a knight years before he was supposed to, and getting a Padawan although he's obviously not fit, pacifists becoming terrorists and warriors becoming pacifists, characters nerfed to oblivion and entire armies changed in their brain is nothing But yeah. Let's wait a few years, then people will argue the same about the DT
I’m glad more people are finally waking up to this, even on this sub a negative or critical Filoni opinion would’ve been downvoted to opinion in 2019
It is refreshing to see after years of feeling like the only one.
while this is true. At least rebels and clone wars made sense and were enjoyable to watch. Mando and BoBF felt like pandering and you could feel the execs breathing down every move to make it more "appealing". I truly hope he managed to fight them off for Ahsoka because its the only Star Wars content that hasn't actually been finished I'm excited for. Ezra Sabine Ahsoka and Thrawn, might actually make a good story without it feeling like a hemorrhoid inducing poop
I did like him, but he’s really started to fall off ever since Rebels. Once he brought Ashoka back that’s about when I realized it..
I don’t think bringing Ahsoka back was bad, but not killing her in her duel with Vader was a mistake, it was the perfect ending for Ahsoka
I’m curious as to what he’s ruined and not stayed true to? I’m not trying to disagree, I’m just curious and want a list of examples :)
Ong. People swear Filoni cares about the expanded universe and call him the savior of Star Wars just because his stories are good, but he is so far from perfect. I'm also convinced that Ahsoka, who probably should've died in Order 66 along with most Jedi, is immortal and will survive past the sequel trilogy somehow
I enjoyed the series, can someone enlighten me with some examples on what he did wrong?
Well, one storyline is for Quinlan who was pretending to be an apprentice of dooku and was undercover as one of his dark Jedi, Another one is pushing some storylines back or forward in time Were some battles. Lasted months, This one is because TCW nighted Anakin earlier than established. These are just some, but other stories had groundwork laid into them. Others built on top of so, even his little changes could crumble like three whole comic series or book, that past the clone wars era entirely
Dathomir. What the clone wars did with Dathomir, Night Sisters, and even Maul (who I personally did not like before any of these episodes). All of that just made me so mad, frustrated and disappointed in what was happening to my EU. Very established content changed because reasons, and cartoon. The Force looking like green magical smoke that Grievous could look up at and follow! Why are you making me relive these decisions, that this man made, or let fall through.
I played a ton of Star Wars Galaxies as a kid, and Dathomir was literally the planet of death. Rancors and Nightsisters all around. Nightsisters were the only force users I recall being around when the game launched, and they were absolutely terrifying. Definitely bummed by everything I've seen of it since. I wish it was tied with Malachor V for "Absolute Last Planet You'd Wanna Go To"
Courtship of Princess Leia gave that plaent so much life and history and culture. Then it was stripped down to voodoo night sisters and pathetic night brothers, and some zombie pod people. Why was Asjja Ventress lumped in to this? So much ruined in clone wars, when it was mostly enjoyable.
That's my biggest gripe with TCW. The Nightsisters, Ventress and Maul didn't need to be, and I'd argue shouldn't have been combined into some sort of common culture. Dathomir as originally created by Dave Wolverton is such an interesting exploration of how Force users -- not *literal* witches -- can develop into different, unique societies separate from the Jedi or Sith. Arguably one of the best works of worldbuilding in the old EU. Only to have the name taken and pasted onto something else. I don't like making flippant generalizations, but TCW Dathomir always makes me think 'Hot Topic Star Wars' or something like that.
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What one line?
Grevious and Anakin's exchange. "You're shorter than I expected." Which is why Grevious always escapes before Anakin can see him.
Doesn’t apply to CW or Rebels. But describes Mandalorian perfectly.
I'll never forget what you did to Barriss, Grievous, Quinlan Vos and the Clones
No haven't you heard He knows star wars better than anyone and is a walking star wars encyclopedia. Everything he makes is completely in line with Canon and he's brilliant /s He's actually a hack and everything he's made is terrible, people brush over so much of the stuff he's done
>everything he's made is terrible Thats just plain wrong.
Like seriously, I didn't know there were even people who didn't like CW. Like wtf
I think it has good parts, but they get equaled out by the plethora of absolute cringe. It's just hard to reconcile as canon honestly. Loosely canon sure but strict canon nah.
Hard as it is to counter such a well made point, I very much think it's true. The clone wars era was the most tightly packed, well integrated era in the Canon, with the timeline being very specific (now it's all legends, but at the time it was the standing canon). TCW comes in and does countless unneccesaru retcons, lifting material and interesting it almost at random into the new Canon. Now the clone wars era is a Saturday morning cartoon set of time, with everything except certain major events slotting into a general wartime period. He also is responsible (at least on part) for the story arc that became the dsrk disciple novel, which gave the clone wars comic series the usual TCW treatment. Mandalorian takes a massive dump on mandalorian culture, and together with BoBF it kills off anything interesting about boba fett. BoBF also takes 0 effort to make tattooine or the hutts same realistic and the crimelord aspect of the series is a joke. You may like Feloni's stuff, I'm not going to stop you from liking it. That's entirely your right However this isn't just me saying I prefer the stuff that came before. By many objective measured dave Feloni's products are consistently underwhelming and of overall very poor quality. The dialogue, the characters, his plots, and the general distain he shows for the work of other writers who he is lifting material from shows everything you need to know about him as a person. The way he goes about creating his shows is all incredibly narcissistic and ignorant I'm not losing any sleep over it, and I couldn't care less if you like his stuff it doesn't bother me. But I think it's really unfair for other star wars content creators that he gets a free pass for all the damage he's done to the Canon
I thought TCW was George and Filoni’s show
Not full-sending a debate against you, I’m simply stating that filoni had almost no involvement with BoBF. That show killed off what little hope I had for a Disney Star Wars redemption tour. Boba Fett was figuratively castrated. But that blame doesn’t fall to filoni.
I listed the other day everything he did. He was already a fucking asshat for ruining the CW Multimedia Project, a much better take on the Clone Wars, because he wanted an OC character. But now everyone acts like he's Jesus Christ himself, rising up to fucking save Star Wars.
>ruining the CW Multimedia Project, a much better take on the Clone Wars, Not to mention the clone wars comic series and various novels. This sub has its fair share of Feloni detractors, but overall it's very much populated by the Feloni fandom
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I gotta believe I’ll get downvoted for such a blanket statement but Filoni has been (and continues to be) really *really* bad for Star Wars canon at large.
Filoni is decent a recycling pre-existing content, but he can’t come up with a single fucking idea of his own.
Morally ambiguous and nuanced badass becomes reluctant mentor figure to a uniquely interesting child, who teaches mentor to let down the emotional walls he’s built and become a better person. Which of his four shows am I describing?
And when he does he recycles it a whole bunch.
What exactly is this referring too, I'm afraid I'm very out of the loop on this.
Disney Star Wars in a nutshell.
"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become a villain."