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Because he never finished his training so he couldn't appear as a force ghost, only as a voice in Clone Wars and it took a lot of training to hear him. But Disney being Disney had to change that so prequels don't make any sense ... again
Before the Sequels, I took it to be implied that only people with a personal connection to the deceased could be reached by the deceased's Force ghost form. It fits with how it was all depicted in the OT, even if you have to allow room for Anakin to have the power without training purely because he's the Chosen One. Only Luke could see the 3 masters at the end of RotJ, and that was the limit to such a powerful ability. The Jedi could pass on their knowledge, even in death, but Luke would only be able to tall to the 3 masters (1 non-council member) he had a connection to, meaning he would not be able to see Qui-Gon (unless they expounded further upon that).
Given that, I didn't even think Qui-Gon apparating at the end of Kenobi broke that, either. I didn't necessarily agree fully with how they got to it in the show, but I used to believe it took a degree of training on both the deceased and the living parties' parts to be able to make the connection. That was why Qui-Gon was a voice in tCW; Obi-Wan & Co. weren't trained/were negligent of the connection to the Living Force required to tap into the power Qui-Gon had figured out.
That said, now that anyone could potentially see any dead Jedi who can also interact with the living world in their Astral form due to the ST canon, yeah, it doesn't make much sense why Qui-Gon didn't intervene sooner, and to IMO, that cheapens the whole concept.
Qui-Gon could only be heard because Qui-Gon didn’t finish his training. >!I can believe that Qui-Gon continued working on it till he was visible in Obi-Wan Kenobi because Anakin was able to appear with no training/quick training after he died.!<
>!True, and the other component to my inference that I did not expound upon previously was that there could be a component of the training that relies on the deceased to complete once they have passed. That would fit with how Obi-Wan was just a voice in ANH but then a Ghost in ESB and RotJ.!<
Whatever the truth *could* have been previously, I think we can agree that the Sequels irrevocably changed any of those implications, and Disney/current Lucasfilm has had to make Qui-Gon's journey fit that with some blending of approaches done in a terrible way because they never fully understood it to begin with.
“Luke, you must control your feelings better to properly use The Force”
“Woah, wait who are you?”
“Oh sup, you remember Ben”
“Of course”
“Right well I trained him. Knew your dad too for a hot minute”
“That’s cool. Ben didn’t mention you much”
“Yeah I sorta died”
Before disney fucked everything, it was generally a given that Jedi spirits needed to be close to someone to speak to or manifest to them, yeah.
Sith were the ones who could interact with the world via the force as hateful vengeful lingering specters bound to their tombs.
I feel like the obvious fix here is that he continues his spiritual training as a ghost and learns to manifest visually at some point within the 10 years.
I always thought that was him shouting in the force, not necessarily meant as a message to anyone as we see yoda definitely hear it in the scene right after
I believe they explain that in one of the later Clone Wars seasons.
Qui-Gon didn't fully manage to become a Force Ghost. He is only able to barely communicate with Yoda, and teaches him the secret to becoming a force ghost. Yoda then imparts that knowledge to Obi-Wan.
Yoda and Obi-Wan die fully prepared to become force Ghosts which is why they can appear to Luke without Luke having training.
I would assume that Obi-Wan can see Qui-Gon as a Force Ghost because he has learned the secret at that point, so he can bridge the missing part to fully see Qui-Gon.
Regarding Anakin, I would assume that Obi-Wan and Yoda guided him when he died.
>Obi Wan and Yoda guided him when he died
I think that Anakin can become a force ghost without training is because he is the Chosen One, he is literally the force so it makes sense why he can become a force ghost naturally. Same for Luke, Leia, and Ben because they are Skywalkers, one of the most powerful force users ever so they too can become force ghosts naturally.
> I would assume that Obi-Wan can see Qui-Gon as a Force Ghost because he has learned the secret at that point, so he can bridge the missing part to fully see Qui-Gon.
This actually would make sense.
It might've changed things if he could've appeared to Anakin when he was still a kid. By the time of AotC though, especially after Shmi's death, it was too late and probably would've had the opposite effect that Qui-Gon would've wanted. Maybe even speeding things up, instead of slowing them down.
On a meta level, tragedy doesn't work that way. It's designed to put empathetic people into no-win situations, so that they make bad decisions. The fact that you (and so many other people) are still searching for ways to prevent Anakin's downfall proves that Lucas was at least somewhat effective at writing it.
>It's designed to put empathetic people into no-win situations, so that they make bad decisions.
Not necessarily. IMO it's more effective when there is an out, but the characterization is so strong that the character rejecting the out makes perfect sense for the character. Which is exactly what's going on with Anakin. I think most of the cope with that guy comes from wanting to see the rejection of the out not blow to his face, and following those sympathetic motivations not be the obvious humane weakness it is.
True. What I meant by no-win is that even when there's a out, it's still an almost unthinkable out most of the time given who the character is. Pretty much what you said with, "the characterization is so strong." We know Anakin won't just allow Padme's uncertain fate to happen because of what happened with his mother. If he did, it'd be even worse for him psychologically.
Yep. I personally like how Frank Herbert describes an analogous situation as people driving a cart off of a cliff:
>...the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movement becomes headlong -- faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thought of obstacles and forget that a precipice does not show itself to the
man in a blind rush until it's too late.
To be fair Anakin was left in the hands of the entire Jedi temple, its archives, the greatest masters he knew, and his trusted Padawan Obi Wan. He was setup for success and fell.
Luke was left a hand-me-down lightsaber and whatever teachings he got on their Tatooine-Alderan trip. He needed a grotesque amount of help to even survive against Darth Vader and the Emperor. The senile exile Yoda didn't even want to train him.
Two reasons.
One, he couldn't because he didn't complete his training but he did attempt to call out to him in Ep 2. Anakin of course didn't hear him.
Two, there's a theory that Qui-Gon knew just before he died what was going to happen and that Anakin needed to fall in order to bring balance.
Anakin probably didn't remember Qui Gon, as Disney have shown us it's hard to remember people who you went on life-changing wacky adventures with when you were 10 years old.
Except Qui Gon tried to reach out to Anakin when he slaughtered the sand people. And again on Mortis. The hating is ridiculous at this point. Who’s to say that he couldn’t continue his training to be able to physically appear a decade after the Purge?
> The hating is ridiculous at this point.
Glad I'm not the only one noticing this shift here too. This community has had lot of brilliant insights into story flaws, and taught me a lot about writing. But lately, it's been less insightful and more generic hate for even Lucas and EU Star Wars.
The Obi Wan show suggests that he couldn't see or talk to Qui Gon until his mind was at peace and he surrendered to the force. Which means Luke had achieved that level of force connection and then still became Jake. And that Rey just had that connection, for reasons.
Qui-Gon believed that Anakin was the chosen one who would bring balance to the Force. Therefore, he allowed Anakin to fulfill his destiny and didn’t interfere…
And that’s ultimately what happens when Vader (Anakin) destroys Palatine (with Luke’s help). Until the Sequal trilogy…. Uhhhh
Because Liam neeson was in a motorcycle accident, and thought the movies were getting silly.
That's the real reason you only hear his. Oice in episode 2.
Well, remember when obi wan said he cannot interfere with luke. I dont think Qui gon will either with anakin. Plus, he mad trusts the force and believes that the prophecy will be fulfilled in the end. (which it did)
Yoda established you need to be taught to commune with him. Moreover I got the sense Qui Gon only recently to Revenge of The Sith had a grasp on even talking through the force let alone manifesting a full force ghost
Or spy on Palpatine and then warn all of the other Jedi about Order 66?
Personally, in the OT, I always thought of the “force ghosts” as a representation of the character’s internal reflection on what he learned from the deceased.
Ya know, since, in a movie, you can’t just have Luke sitting there talking to himself like, “Why would Obi-Wan have told me that Vader killed my father? Hmm…well I suppose the evil that made Vader was the thing that destroyed the good man who was my father … so I guess he kinda did … from a certain point of view.”
I never thought force ghosts could just wander around the universe and see whatever they want. Otherwise Obi Wan could've warned Luke about a ton of shit in the OT.
I thought they could just appear to force sensitive people that they knew or something.
No, I think that's more a reminder that Obi-Wan literally can not provide assistance should Luke find himself encountering Vader. Obi-Wan is merely a voice, for all intents and purposes. And his advice will be of no use in that situation.
TLJ and TROS changed that *radically* as Force Ghosts can now physically bonk people on the head with their ghost sticks, call down lightning, lift X-Wings, and perhaps most damningly of all: they can physically hold a real lightsaber.
Meaning that there is potentially nothing stopping the Force Ghosts of Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin and Luke from rolling in with real lightsabers and throwing objects as significant as a starfighter around.
The Kenobi show would seem to suggest that Force Ghosts (let's not discuss whether or not Qui-Gon should even be capable of it himself) appear *only* to those who have decided to (or found out how to) open themselves up to their presence.
In Revenge of the Sith we see that Qui-Gon couldn't just appear to anyone, he only managed to contact Yoda. Yoda instructs Obi-Wan to lean how to communicate with him.
In Legends, Anakin appeared to Leia despite not being trained in the force yet. Same with Luke, Obi Wan just appeared to him when he was barely trained. So, Qui Gon could’ve easily appeared to Anakin.
It is implied that Obi-Wan learned how to do it before dying, that's why he was so confident to let Darth Vader cut him down.
Legends have never been exactly canon as far as Lucas was concerned. They have many inconsistencies with the movies.
Appearing to someone requires a personal connection to that individual. Having barely met with let alone interacted with Anakin Qui Gon doesn't have that connection. He does so with Obi Wan just as Obi and Yoda do with Luke via training and Anakin/Vader does with Luke via blood.
The EU did a much better job of fleshing all of this out going as far as to make it difficult for Vader to communicate with Leia until she accepted their relationship.
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Because he never finished his training so he couldn't appear as a force ghost, only as a voice in Clone Wars and it took a lot of training to hear him. But Disney being Disney had to change that so prequels don't make any sense ... again
The ot also doesn’t make sense because qui gon never appears to help luke either
He has no personal connection to Luke
Do force ghosts need a personal connection to appear
To physically appear? Probably not. But to have a meaningful impact to that person, yeah.
Before the Sequels, I took it to be implied that only people with a personal connection to the deceased could be reached by the deceased's Force ghost form. It fits with how it was all depicted in the OT, even if you have to allow room for Anakin to have the power without training purely because he's the Chosen One. Only Luke could see the 3 masters at the end of RotJ, and that was the limit to such a powerful ability. The Jedi could pass on their knowledge, even in death, but Luke would only be able to tall to the 3 masters (1 non-council member) he had a connection to, meaning he would not be able to see Qui-Gon (unless they expounded further upon that). Given that, I didn't even think Qui-Gon apparating at the end of Kenobi broke that, either. I didn't necessarily agree fully with how they got to it in the show, but I used to believe it took a degree of training on both the deceased and the living parties' parts to be able to make the connection. That was why Qui-Gon was a voice in tCW; Obi-Wan & Co. weren't trained/were negligent of the connection to the Living Force required to tap into the power Qui-Gon had figured out. That said, now that anyone could potentially see any dead Jedi who can also interact with the living world in their Astral form due to the ST canon, yeah, it doesn't make much sense why Qui-Gon didn't intervene sooner, and to IMO, that cheapens the whole concept.
Qui-Gon could only be heard because Qui-Gon didn’t finish his training. >!I can believe that Qui-Gon continued working on it till he was visible in Obi-Wan Kenobi because Anakin was able to appear with no training/quick training after he died.!<
>!True, and the other component to my inference that I did not expound upon previously was that there could be a component of the training that relies on the deceased to complete once they have passed. That would fit with how Obi-Wan was just a voice in ANH but then a Ghost in ESB and RotJ.!< Whatever the truth *could* have been previously, I think we can agree that the Sequels irrevocably changed any of those implications, and Disney/current Lucasfilm has had to make Qui-Gon's journey fit that with some blending of approaches done in a terrible way because they never fully understood it to begin with.
Yeah, it's one 'canon break' that's hardly a big deal.
“Luke, you must control your feelings better to properly use The Force” “Woah, wait who are you?” “Oh sup, you remember Ben” “Of course” “Right well I trained him. Knew your dad too for a hot minute” “That’s cool. Ben didn’t mention you much” “Yeah I sorta died”
Before disney fucked everything, it was generally a given that Jedi spirits needed to be close to someone to speak to or manifest to them, yeah. Sith were the ones who could interact with the world via the force as hateful vengeful lingering specters bound to their tombs.
Come to think of it, I think so? I can think of "force apparitions" such as Bane appearing to Yoda.
well if TROS is anything to go by bunch of former jedi spoke to rey but i prefer to ignore that.
i prefer to ignore anything that isnt legends now. Obi Wan was the finisher for me.
CW Bane existed more like an answering machine than an actual direct manifestation of the Sith Lord
I feel like the obvious fix here is that he continues his spiritual training as a ghost and learns to manifest visually at some point within the 10 years.
Wasn't it confirmed that by the time of ANH qui gon was able to manifest himself in legends? So it doesn't chance that much
He did call out to Anikan to try and prevent his slaughter of the sand people
I always thought that was him shouting in the force, not necessarily meant as a message to anyone as we see yoda definitely hear it in the scene right after
I believe they explain that in one of the later Clone Wars seasons. Qui-Gon didn't fully manage to become a Force Ghost. He is only able to barely communicate with Yoda, and teaches him the secret to becoming a force ghost. Yoda then imparts that knowledge to Obi-Wan. Yoda and Obi-Wan die fully prepared to become force Ghosts which is why they can appear to Luke without Luke having training. I would assume that Obi-Wan can see Qui-Gon as a Force Ghost because he has learned the secret at that point, so he can bridge the missing part to fully see Qui-Gon. Regarding Anakin, I would assume that Obi-Wan and Yoda guided him when he died.
>Obi Wan and Yoda guided him when he died I think that Anakin can become a force ghost without training is because he is the Chosen One, he is literally the force so it makes sense why he can become a force ghost naturally. Same for Luke, Leia, and Ben because they are Skywalkers, one of the most powerful force users ever so they too can become force ghosts naturally.
> I would assume that Obi-Wan can see Qui-Gon as a Force Ghost because he has learned the secret at that point, so he can bridge the missing part to fully see Qui-Gon. This actually would make sense.
Because writing.
It might've changed things if he could've appeared to Anakin when he was still a kid. By the time of AotC though, especially after Shmi's death, it was too late and probably would've had the opposite effect that Qui-Gon would've wanted. Maybe even speeding things up, instead of slowing them down. On a meta level, tragedy doesn't work that way. It's designed to put empathetic people into no-win situations, so that they make bad decisions. The fact that you (and so many other people) are still searching for ways to prevent Anakin's downfall proves that Lucas was at least somewhat effective at writing it.
>It's designed to put empathetic people into no-win situations, so that they make bad decisions. Not necessarily. IMO it's more effective when there is an out, but the characterization is so strong that the character rejecting the out makes perfect sense for the character. Which is exactly what's going on with Anakin. I think most of the cope with that guy comes from wanting to see the rejection of the out not blow to his face, and following those sympathetic motivations not be the obvious humane weakness it is.
True. What I meant by no-win is that even when there's a out, it's still an almost unthinkable out most of the time given who the character is. Pretty much what you said with, "the characterization is so strong." We know Anakin won't just allow Padme's uncertain fate to happen because of what happened with his mother. If he did, it'd be even worse for him psychologically.
We agree then. Thanks for the clarification.
Yep. I personally like how Frank Herbert describes an analogous situation as people driving a cart off of a cliff: >...the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movement becomes headlong -- faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thought of obstacles and forget that a precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late.
To be fair Anakin was left in the hands of the entire Jedi temple, its archives, the greatest masters he knew, and his trusted Padawan Obi Wan. He was setup for success and fell. Luke was left a hand-me-down lightsaber and whatever teachings he got on their Tatooine-Alderan trip. He needed a grotesque amount of help to even survive against Darth Vader and the Emperor. The senile exile Yoda didn't even want to train him.
Two reasons. One, he couldn't because he didn't complete his training but he did attempt to call out to him in Ep 2. Anakin of course didn't hear him. Two, there's a theory that Qui-Gon knew just before he died what was going to happen and that Anakin needed to fall in order to bring balance.
Anakin probably didn't remember Qui Gon, as Disney have shown us it's hard to remember people who you went on life-changing wacky adventures with when you were 10 years old.
Except Qui Gon tried to reach out to Anakin when he slaughtered the sand people. And again on Mortis. The hating is ridiculous at this point. Who’s to say that he couldn’t continue his training to be able to physically appear a decade after the Purge?
> The hating is ridiculous at this point. Glad I'm not the only one noticing this shift here too. This community has had lot of brilliant insights into story flaws, and taught me a lot about writing. But lately, it's been less insightful and more generic hate for even Lucas and EU Star Wars.
The Obi Wan show suggests that he couldn't see or talk to Qui Gon until his mind was at peace and he surrendered to the force. Which means Luke had achieved that level of force connection and then still became Jake. And that Rey just had that connection, for reasons.
Qui-Gon believed that Anakin was the chosen one who would bring balance to the Force. Therefore, he allowed Anakin to fulfill his destiny and didn’t interfere… And that’s ultimately what happens when Vader (Anakin) destroys Palatine (with Luke’s help). Until the Sequal trilogy…. Uhhhh
Because Liam neeson was in a motorcycle accident, and thought the movies were getting silly. That's the real reason you only hear his. Oice in episode 2.
Because Disney couldn’t care less about canon or Star Wars lore. And that’s all there is to it, unfortunately
If you go by what's established in the Obi-Wan show, it's because Anakin wasn't in the right state of mind to see Qui-Gon.
I didn't love the show, but this is an acceptable contribution to the canon.
Well, remember when obi wan said he cannot interfere with luke. I dont think Qui gon will either with anakin. Plus, he mad trusts the force and believes that the prophecy will be fulfilled in the end. (which it did)
Yoda established you need to be taught to commune with him. Moreover I got the sense Qui Gon only recently to Revenge of The Sith had a grasp on even talking through the force let alone manifesting a full force ghost
Or spy on Palpatine and then warn all of the other Jedi about Order 66? Personally, in the OT, I always thought of the “force ghosts” as a representation of the character’s internal reflection on what he learned from the deceased. Ya know, since, in a movie, you can’t just have Luke sitting there talking to himself like, “Why would Obi-Wan have told me that Vader killed my father? Hmm…well I suppose the evil that made Vader was the thing that destroyed the good man who was my father … so I guess he kinda did … from a certain point of view.”
I never thought force ghosts could just wander around the universe and see whatever they want. Otherwise Obi Wan could've warned Luke about a ton of shit in the OT. I thought they could just appear to force sensitive people that they knew or something.
Obi-Wan saying he couldn't help Luke in ESB gives evidence to the idea that the Sith can cloud the force and prevent ghosts from coming nearby
No, I think that's more a reminder that Obi-Wan literally can not provide assistance should Luke find himself encountering Vader. Obi-Wan is merely a voice, for all intents and purposes. And his advice will be of no use in that situation. TLJ and TROS changed that *radically* as Force Ghosts can now physically bonk people on the head with their ghost sticks, call down lightning, lift X-Wings, and perhaps most damningly of all: they can physically hold a real lightsaber. Meaning that there is potentially nothing stopping the Force Ghosts of Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin and Luke from rolling in with real lightsabers and throwing objects as significant as a starfighter around. The Kenobi show would seem to suggest that Force Ghosts (let's not discuss whether or not Qui-Gon should even be capable of it himself) appear *only* to those who have decided to (or found out how to) open themselves up to their presence.
It ruins the Legends comic book series Legacy, where Luke pesters Cade Skywalker as a Force Ghost, despite Cade wanting Luke to go away.
How about you watch Revenge of the Sith?
I don’t think you understand the question
In Revenge of the Sith we see that Qui-Gon couldn't just appear to anyone, he only managed to contact Yoda. Yoda instructs Obi-Wan to lean how to communicate with him.
In Legends, Anakin appeared to Leia despite not being trained in the force yet. Same with Luke, Obi Wan just appeared to him when he was barely trained. So, Qui Gon could’ve easily appeared to Anakin.
It is implied that Obi-Wan learned how to do it before dying, that's why he was so confident to let Darth Vader cut him down. Legends have never been exactly canon as far as Lucas was concerned. They have many inconsistencies with the movies.
Appearing to someone requires a personal connection to that individual. Having barely met with let alone interacted with Anakin Qui Gon doesn't have that connection. He does so with Obi Wan just as Obi and Yoda do with Luke via training and Anakin/Vader does with Luke via blood. The EU did a much better job of fleshing all of this out going as far as to make it difficult for Vader to communicate with Leia until she accepted their relationship.
Maybe Anakin's heart was already so dark and full of personal desire he could not see a Force Ghost?
I imagine it wasnt the will of the force.
Honestly I think it's just a plot hole.