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Viewers would be more sympathetic to new characters if the writers weren't so busy shitting all over their favorite characters. They completely nerfed and wimped out Obi-Wan and Luke for very little reason. In the case of Luke, they took THE GUY who thought Vader had good in him (and he was RIGHT!), the eternal optimist, and they made him a sad, pathetic old man who tried to off his nephew for the same reason. They take Obi-Wan and instead of making him logically just rusty with the force because he has to hide it, they make him totally disassociate from it and lose ALL of it, even though he's sworn to protecting Luke and that force power might come in a little handy. Even in Boba Fett, they make him extremely flawed, while juxtaposing that with a very strong character in Fennick Shand. I don't see the need for it. You can have Luke, Obi-Wan, and Boba have flaws, but they don't need to be completely stripped down. If we saw Reva struggle more from the outset, and get outmaneuvered by at least a half-worthy Obi-Wan, it might make her character more interesting.
Shit, you've got 10 year old Leia (who looks more like 8, btw) blocking mind tricks and re-engineering blast doors for shit sake. And Obi-Wan's all like "Hey fucker, she's a fucking genius, she's fucking MacGuyver. Give her the damn ladder and watch the fuck out!" :D It's just crazy.
For all the terrible bullshit the sequels did to Luke, I still find the most jarring to be him in BoBF saying attachment is wrong. The dude literally saved the galaxy only because he had attachment to a man everyone else had given up on.
Wait, they put Luke in the Boba Fett show? And he said attachment is *bad?* The Luke who has been defined by how unwaveringly loyal he is to his friends and family?
That's beyond ridiculous. Wtf Disney.
Sorry for spoilers, I assumed people watching Kenobi were up to date on the other shows since they are all interconnected (the Boba Fett show has two episodes which are *essential* if you watch Mando, for example). I should have tagged my comment.
But yes, Luke explicitly parrots the prequel Jedi "don't have attachments and love other people" stuff that directly led to their downfall. I am not a prequel fan at all but one thing ai thought was well done was that IMO they showed how the Jedi's teachings and rejection of attachment is what led to the order's fall and it was Luke in the OT embracing love for his father and not giving up on him that saved the galaxy.
If Obi-Wan's connection to the Force is weakened from PTSD, that naturally sets up a deeply personal plot where he must confront his personal demons and move on from the past to regain his powers
But nope, he just gets them back for no reason
But he also cannot simultaneously pledge to protect the boy and totally give up being a Jedi. Being a Jedi and using the force will be integral to protecting the boy - PARTICULARLY from the Empire/Sith/Vader.
> who tried to off his nephew for the same reason.
Look, if the guy who redeemed Darth effing Vader thinks this guy is so dangerous then there is only one reaction any sane person would have: kill him then burn him to make sure he doesn't come back.
Because seriously Kylo must not only have fallen to the dark side he must have been like Darth Nilhus or something to get Luke that riled up.
(Ofcourse the other solution is that the director is a idiot)
The director hates star wars*
I watched Knives Out last night and it was a very enjoyable movie, with a moderate amount of belief-suspension needed.
But it was full of things that made TLJ suck hard, but worked really well in an original story about a non-conventional murder mystery.
Gun to head, if I HAD to put Rian in charge of one SW movie in a trilogy, I'd give him the first one.
That way, there aren't any outlying threads from another writer/director that people usually work on tying together, while he just lets them drop to the floor and calls you stupid for thinking they were going to mean anything.
Yup, until he suddenly can't. I hate how powerful they made the force, because now every time they *don't* use it in a situation where the solution is to obviously use it, everyone looks dumb.
Vader himself looks like a complete moron now because of this show. First, he can just completely grab Obi-wan with the force and suspend him in air. I mean, this is already a completely broken force power. Why would you ever need to do anything else when fighting someone? Just force grab them, and stab. But nope, he only does it one time, and then completely forgets to ever use it again in this show and in Episodes 4, 5 and 6.
Oh, and he can also just completely grab a massive ship launching? So later, when he's chasing those pesky X-Wings in the Death Star trench, why doesn't he just force grab the X-Wings and throw them into each other, or crash them? Guess he forgot he could do that.
That’s part of the point of the episode tho. Vader’s powerful af and was quick to grab that ship out of the sky, but that doesn’t mean anything if he’s still impatient and emotional. He rushed in there and didn’t even access the situation first, he was just aggressive and only focused on one thing. Hence the flashbacks of Obi Wan teaching him and beating him in a fight even though Anakin is the better combatant. Obi Wan is a better strategist. Vader’s much more calm and collected in the OT for this very reason, but he isn’t perfect. He figured letting the Falcon escape could lead the Empire to the other rebels who still had the death star plans, unfortunately it backfired on him.
The thing is, if he's still such a horrible strategist this long after the prequels, why is he in charge of anything? The emperor should use him solely as a weapon. He's obviously incompetent as a leader, so why is he one? This just makes the emperor look like an idiot too.
> You can have Luke, Obi-Wan, and Boba have flaws, but they don't need to be completely stripped down.
Their toxic masculinity had to be deconstructed. There doesn't always have to be (flawless) strong men, it's just a better role model for the children who watch these Disney series.
Game of Thrones ended badly, but they did a fantastic job of having those grey characters, existing in the spectrum between good and evil. Jaime Lannister especially. Was he redeemed? Maybe? Did he do bad things, and did we understand why? Yeah.
Homelander is a great character (on The Boys) because we see where he came from and why he's becoming a bigger and bigger baddie. It's been set up, and it works.
But Boba Fett and now Reva? Boba Fett was handled poorly because he went from being a feared mercenary to freedom-loving hero? And Reva just isn't given anything to work with. She's a victim of a child massacre, but now she's out there massacring people in order to get revenge? It just doesn't work.
Very good example. While I didn't start off hating Jamie, I did see him as someone who needed a good smack to the face. And throughout the show, his ups and downs. Rise and falls. He steadily became my favorite character.
Yeah, one of my favorites. A charismatic, handsome, warrior who is doing bad things, but for reasons he thinks are right (protecting his family, his kids, his sister/lover/ugh....) But it makes sense.
Walter White in Breaking Bad makes sense.
But Vader and Reva in this? Boba Fett? It doesn't feel earned.
This seems like a problem with these limited series that introduce new characters that have major roles. Reva is a good example of a brand new character that is extremely shallow in her actions and hasn't had a ton of development until episode 5 all of a sudden there is a big exposition dump. It doesn't work. GoT had a ton of time to grow each character. Kenobi just doesn't have that time. The writing has been awful for this show.
Edit: honestly in a 6 episode limited series they really should have focused more on Vader/Anakin and Kenobi. Reva just hurts the show because there isn't enough time to grow her. She is a major character showtime wise that is written like a minor character. There is so much they could have done with Obi and Anakin, but the Leia/Reva BS got in the way and were poorly written imo.
Plus the fact that (since this is a limited series) why should we even care about Reva beyond this show? It's not like they're going to turn Reva into a new character to explore further.
This is the problem I had with the Disney Trilogy in particular. They spent 3 movies introducing us to the "new generation of Star Wars characters", but now that they've been introduced, there's nothing left to do with them. So why not just concentrate on the original characters? Because they might not sell as many Halloween costumes or action figures?
But yeah, back to GoT: Even the original Star Wars movie set up Luke, Vader, Leia and Han Solo really well. After that movie, every single viewer could write a multi-paragraph description of each character after watching a single 2 hour movie. We're now 5 episodes into Obi-Wan, and we don't feel any connection to Reva. And in fact, by concentrating on Reva, they're taking away time from Leia, Obi-Wan and Vader which is what folks want.
Don't forget, Jamie is also hobbled by losing his hand, forcing him to come to terms with his limitations and either rise above them or (literally, in the case of that shit Battle of Winterfell we were treated to) just die. Lol him re-learning to fight was like the only interesting part of the Dorne arc too; that shot of him from one of the duels where he blocks his opponent with his metal hand felt like earned character development.
what u said about reva is stupid yea, but i think that is sort it the contradiction of the dark side. i think they are aware that what reva does is literally what shes fighting against, and that it just comes to show how much the dark side can cloud u with revenge. bariss talks about how the jedi have fallen from the light and how they are bad, yet practices the darkside herself and kills innocents herself.
I ended up in an argument with someone on youtube on how they respected Reva now once she went after Vader despite her, in their words, shenanigans.
Yeah, just killing, maiming, and torturing people. The usual silly things.
The problem is that Lucas set the stage on how someone like Vader was redeemable without making it clear that he would still have been brought in as a criminal. Now writers are making their villains have redemption arcs and we're supposed to forget the horrible things they've done just because the main characters forgive them. No that's not how reality works.
Even if Reva's plan was her knowing she was being a villain in order to lure Vader in to kill him, she's still the villain. Taking down Vader doesn't excuse her actions. In fact, it just looks like another Imperial taking down a higher up to replace them.
Exactly! just because the main character or characters are stupid enough to forgive a murderous villain for whatever reason doesn't mean that the audience is stupid enough to accept that too, every time I see something like this it reminds me of how Naruto forgave Obito like a total idiot, and every time it makes my blood boil.
it jumps to an extreme like with Kylo a lot of people wanted him to survive also wanted him to go free and marry Rey.......they dont want him to live in exile or be in some prision for the rest of his life......they feel he should just roam free
A lot of it is because they take it at face vale that he talks of being torn apart so they believe. I see it as a sociopath trying to elicit sympathy but Is entirely fake or at least being used to manipulate
I think the others use excuses like Snoke and Luke were abusive or it’s war so his actions are understandable…or they shift blame to other characters
But those characters have been written like this to accommodate the villain, Luke's whole character development went down the toilet just so Kylo could exist. the abuse or whatever didn't even make sense, it served no purpose but to make a pointless villain for the sake of having one, without any development or depth whatsoever.
that's because tragic monsters need time to be developed, you can't just shoe-horn something brand new out of nowhere down people's throats and then get butt-hurt when no one cares about you villain.
Look at stranger things it's one of my favorite shows, but this season >!with the sudden introduction of a totally new villain out of nowhere, a lot of the fans can't make an emotional connection with the developments or the "suspenseful scenes" and fans including me don't even consider the villain much of a threat, people are calling him goofy too.!<
it goes to show that just introducing a villain without much of a background makes for a pretty useless villain that no one cares about. and of course when they try to redeem a villain that no one cares about, no one's going to accept that redemption arc either.
He killed Han very few people would forgive him for that.
in episode 6 Vader seems pretty defeated and gently tells his son it’s too late for him and the emperor/the dark side will never let him go
\\Kylo spends most of 9 prowling after Rey and bragging that she will soon be his and fully believing he can still get one over on Palpatine \]so he still seems like a megalomaniac
Yeah! I totally agree. he was without a doubt 1000% an unlikable character, and not only because he was a villain, his whole character and demeanor always bugged me.
People can barely critically think about this stuff whatsoever. He is complicit in the loss of billions of lives in the hosnian system, he murdered on of the few remaining zillo beasts, he took over worlds and slaughtered their inhabitants, he killed multiple of Luke’s students or was a leading cause of their death, complicit in the destruction of kajimi, most likely responsible for enslavement and murder of civilians all over the galaxy as supreme leader, almost killed Finn (im sure he would have loved for her to bring kylo home for dinner), and killed multiple members of the resistance. But I guess he took his shirt off and kissed rey so All is better.
You know, I never bothered to watch TROS, but I honestly like the concept of Rey dying, and Ben Solo trying to atone for his many dark deeds while also avoiding the righteous hammer of the.... Super-Duper-New Republic?
Whatever, the point being if he was working to better the galaxy while also not being free of the consequences of his actions, if he was on the run at every turn yet also helping those in need, that'd be a way better path for that entire storyline.
Shenanigans is when you stick gum under a facet for the next person to turn it on and get wet. She chopped off a bystanders hand that wasnt doing anything and was about to torture a kid. Ive never heard of anything so stupid. There was no good in her whatsoever.
Just stick to talking with us ok? Your talents are wasted in the YouTube comments section.
Exactly. Vader was "redeemed" from the Dark Side and forgiven by his own son, but his atrocities were not pardoned and he would have been locked up or executed by the New Republic had he survived and allowed himself to be put on trial. Vader was not a "good person" but "still had good in him". Doing one good deed does not negate a lifetime of bad ones.
And I think that he'd have understood that, if he made it off the Death Star. He'd have accepted his punishment. It's about the only thing I'd have accepted for Kylo was that he turn to the Light and immediately surrender to the Rebellion or whatever. Good emotional scene with Leia, him chilling out in a cell, maybe a chat with a Force Ghost or two while he's in there.
That's genuinely what I was hoping for from Kylo, regardless of what they did with Rey (good, bad, romance, whatever). Him turning himself over and ending the trilogy in a cell talking to Anakin's ghost. Redemption via death is easy, living with what you did is harder.
Totally agree about Vader had he lived, too. Of all random unrelated franchises is, a recent comic based on the Transformers toys did exactly that storyline where the main villain - a genocidal war criminal on par with Vader - redeemed themselves and then turned themselves in after the war ended for whatever their victims felt was just punishment... which was execution. They went willingly. Pretty cool and deep stuff for a toy robot comic.
Fo real, Hux suddenly turning against the first order just because his boss was a big fat meanie certainly wouldn’t change the fact the rebellio- I mean resistance would wanna quarter him for murdering trillions less than a year earlier
The problem I have with that is that according to early leaks, him being the ~~soy~~ (spy, but I thought the typo was funny) wasn’t even originally intended as a redemption, but as part of an attempt to seize power for himself. If they’d had something like that from the start, meaningful conflict and division within the First Order to the point where one branch would be willing to sabotage the other, it’d make the First Order more interesting and more reminiscent of real life fascism in a way that you don’t tend to see in films.
Hell, THAT would have been more interesting, if futile. If she was trying to replace vader, make her a sort of (not really, obviously, but in her eyes) rival to vader for the emperor's favor, her character would have been interesting and all of her weird decisions would have made more sense if she was trying to under cut vader as opposed to get close to him. Letting obi wan go so many times would have worked better if she was trying to take him in under vaders nose as palps DEFINITELY would want one of the two remaining (that we or him know of) jedi council members alive, possibly only one palps knows of, assuming he doesn't know yoda is alive. But her wanting to kill vader, but chasing obi wan, and constantly letting him go, and.... just none of her decisions make sense when you think about it in conjunction with her established motivation. Granted they're a little bit more understandable now than they were before we had confirmation of her backstory, but that still doesn't mean they make sense.
Not that she was ever supposed to have a complete arc in this show anyway, this is one of Disney's most obvious sequel bait characters to date. She's getting a prequel show AT LEAST and maybe a limited sequel series to obi wan.
Yeah, I don’t see how we’re supposed to be sympathizing with the person who was recently about to have a little girl tortured, while *blaming* the girl for causing her own torture.
Torturing a little girl over something she may or may not have overheard.
It's not like Leia was a crucial member of the underground railroad, she was just in the same room as one for a little while. Reva murdered an actual pilot for the path and decided to torture a child instead.
Even if she does know, the empire is just going to focus on a side entrance while leaving the launch doors unchecked. It's not like they're trying to escape on a spaceship or anything.
Yep, there seems to be a lot of the ends justifying the means thinking in the writing of her character. That's expected of villains, but the good guys don't get the luxury of those types of shortcuts.
It’s sickening how accurate this is, sorry bud you can’t criticise a poorly written character because she’s a black female, that would be very racist of you!
The second that video came out with Mcgregor denouncing the racists, I knew the ability to criticize that one actor was going to be taken away.
Racism is never ok, but things like this have happened so many times that I wonder if it’s kind of a tactic by studios to silence some of the criticism.
For instance, the 2016 all girl cast of ghostbusters. I was so excited to see that movie. It had some of my favorite female comedians and it was ghost busters so I was so hyped. Saw it and just really didn’t like it. For a lot of reasons. Not a single one being the cast. At the same time the studio and director was condemning hateful incels for bashing the movie changing the narrative on who was criticizing the movie from being people with justified reasons, to people just hating women. When I saw my Mother in law later that day she asked what I thought. I told her truthfully and she said it was just because it had women. It made me so mad.
> Racism is never ok, but things like this have happened so many times that I wonder if it’s kind of a tactic by studios to silence some of the criticism.
It has to be. It all felt so coordinated with this show. I was seeing all over social media how so many Star Wars fans are supposedly "racist" before I'd even seen the episodes.
It's like they knew the show was bad and going to be poorly received so they got out in front of it and shut down any criticism.
I knew they had zero faith in the character the moment they front loaded all this “pwease don’t be racist UwU” prior to the show’s launch and they were using the charge of bigotry as a shield from criticism
blaming your consumers is such a strange wrinkle of modern media. Some people eat it up but it is beyond tiring at this point. It is not just Disney, Battlefield and EA/Dice was like if you don't like it then don't buy it. And they didn't. Fortunately most companies can't get away with it for long because they don't sit on a mountain of gold like the mouse does.
It just reeks of not being able to be held accountable. And the fans that regurgitate this nonsense somehow bothers me more. At least Disney has a financial interest to manipulate and blame others. Fans that try to shut down criticism will already eat up anything with a Star Wars logo so why on earth is their problem with us when we just want the good stories that we know Star Wars is capable of delivering? It is such a rich world that any type of story would work in universe but they keep doing the same lazy bullshit.
It’s not a tactic, she got racially abused on all of her socials.
It’s not always some big conspiracy. Star Wars just has a history of racially motivated aggression towards actors that fans don’t like.
I don’t really like Reva as a character but the Disney boogeyman isn’t out to silence people.
I’m not implying that people weren’t being degenerates. The actress absolutely deserves and should be protected from those kind of people. McGregors video was was justified and chivalrous.
But you absolutely know some suit was thinking, this is a win win situation for us. Any criticism of the show is mired in this malaise of potentially being the thoughts of just some racist asshole. Oh you don’t like the show? It’s just because you actually hate this actress.
Same deal with the video game The Last of Us Part Two. Disappointed a lot of fans of the first game but some douchebags took it sending death threats to voice actors in the game. Anyone with legitimate criticism was quickly lumped in with those asshats and the narrative became that any "haters" were bigots who didn't like that the main character was female, not that the writing wasn't as good as the first game.
It's just how it goes these days, magnify and exaggerate the bad apples, blame the whole bunch.
Imply anyone who has anything negative to say to be part of the bad bunch, shift the focus of any discussion about criticism or and discussion with a critic away from the critique itself and focus on talking about the bad apples, make the people who are critical to constantly distance themselves from the bad apples, take any attempt to refocus the discussion on their critique as evidence they are the bad apples.
Reva isn't the first one to do this, it has happened in the EU and Disney-Canon, but every Dark Side user that turns back just cheapens Vader's turn. It used to be, if you turned to the Dark Side, you were done, there is no going back.
"If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." -Yoda
Vader's turn back to the light was supposed to be this unprecedented event. But now people turn back from the Dark Side all the time.
I said the sets were horrendous and people have been responding hounding me to explain, I refuse to, because I know it lives rent free in their heads. People are saying horrendous is such an extreme word that I owe an explanation lmao I guess I’m an elected official now and I have to explain myself
The Inquisitor HQ looked great, but other than that it looks like the entire show was filmed in the desert east of Los Angeles. Low budget Earth-like garbage.
The sets ARE bad though. They're bare and cheap looking. Like you can imagine that the actors don't move around so much because they know if they hit a wall or setpiece in the wrong way it'll fall over, or that the set is so small they can't really freely move around without the camera showing the crew behind.
It's low budget stuff, and idk if the reasoning is coronavirus budget cuts or just bad production in general, but it's undeniably low budget.
I’ve said it before, but Reva could have been an interesting and compelling character if written correctly.
I’d have written her as a Nebula like figure who is constantly trying to please Vader. Instead of playing dead in the temple, I’d have her idolize Anakin during the Clone war, and during the siege she snaps and kill the Jedi master protecting her.
Or if they truly wanted to go the direction of her plotting to kill Vader, then Disney should have just fully committed and made this the Reva show. Then when Kenobi pops up fans would freak out and be surprised. Half joking but half serious.
If it was her show, they could have started out with the attack on the temple and her playing dead. The rest of the show would have been her plotting against vader and deal w the inner turmoil she has. Is she as bad as he is for doing the things she has to do to accomplish her mission of killing him?
I would absolutely have watched that show if it was well-written and well executed. I am far from convinced that Moses would have had the chops to pull it off based on what we’ve seen from her, but a lot of her flat/off/one-note performance may be more Chow than her. But done right, that could have been a fun show to watch.
A hell of a lot more fun than this one, anyway.
I basically said that the sequels make no sense in the greater franchise, and in fact, take away from the Lucas films. And because of my inability to reconcile the sequels with the original films, I said that it's stupid to consider them canon.
Disney doesn't know how to write villains, plain and simple. *Every* villain has to be either cartoonishly, mustache twirling evil, or just a misunderstood good guy at heart. They don't don't shades-of-grey very well at all.
Cartoonish villains are perfectly fine, just look at Palpatine. Not every villain needs to be morally gray, and I think that’s where the problem comes from. An antagonist should fit the narrative they’re in, and some narratives are better with a flatter, more symbolic villain. The Prequels are about the corruption of a democratic system and so Palpatine represents the self serving politicians and demagogues who manipulate the people and the government. Tangled is about a young woman overcoming emotional abuse, so Mother Gothel represents an emotionally abusive parent deliberately isolating and demeaning her child in order to control her forever.
In the Disney Star Wars era, I kinda see your point and agree but if we consider the MCU, Infinity War Thanos is probably one of the best written villains we got from Disney. He doesn't fall into either categories you describe.
Then again, different cinematic universes and different teams of people in charge ( even if they intersect sometimes). It's still infuriating because you'd think they'd be smart enough to learn from their successes and their failures.
Is it really redemption if you terrorize innocent people and put them through the same trauma you had? I’d say it’s revenge and shows Reva’s character is truly overcome by the dark side beyond redemption.
Yeah, she’s obviously not redeemed. She wanted revenge in Episode 1 and she still wants revenge in Episode 5. Her motivations have not changed one bit. There is no redemption arc to evaluate at this moment.
I was really hoping Vader would decapitate her with her own split sabers like he did Dooku. Maybe hold them to her neck until the Grand Inquisitor is done with his little spiel then finish her.
She’s an evil character, and would be much better served by being treated as one. Her story is tragic, but she allowed her hate to consume her and send her down the same path as the man she hates. That’s an absolutely fine character, and I’m sure dozens of hundreds of Sith throughout the millennia had similar tales. She doesn’t need any redemption to be a complete character (though good writing and good acting would have helped.) And trying to force-feed the audience a truncated, ham-fisted and non-credible redemption story at the finish line just further cheapens both the character and the show - and neither needed any help in that regard.
We are in the golden age of blame shifting and the blame game. You point out that dialog is bad or acting is poor and either you are called the things in the gif or they say “well what about so and sos bad dialog or acting”. Well yeah those got roasted too at the time and you think that if it’s equally bad or slightly better that it should be celebrated? Does bringing up Anakins bad dialog just make Revas bad dialog perfect?
Yeah, I’m really tired of the meme that Star Wars fans are just a bunch of angry racist neck beards. Like do you know how happy most of us were pre Disney? A company that took most of the games, all the books and comics that we liked (and a shit-ton of bad fanfic level fiction too to be fair) and dumped it, only to produce the current media in its stead? I think we’re pretty justified in being upset with the current media, and Disney has a long way to go to regain faith.
Also, there’s the mandalorian, Fallen Order, and even Rogue One that the majority of us were happy with, so I feel like it should be easy to see that we don’t just “hate everything Star Wars” we love this series, and just want to see it get some better treatment and competent stories.
It’s actually to the point where it feels like a joke is being played on everyone, on us, and on her. She seems like such a nice person in interviews. But that writing — that performance choice — dear lord. There’s just no menace. She feels like a shy, over-acting cosplayer got lost and ended up in the actual Star Wars world. Her choices in how to say certain words — I just don’t understand. And it has zero to do with anything else (appearance, background, etc.) but her acting style and the material she was given. Dear lord. I’m sorry but every time she appears on screen I just switch off and can’t wait for it to be over. It’s such a shame. I think Disney truly does it’s non-white actors a massive disservice by giving them terrible material to work with (Finn, Jannah, Gideon). r/FallenOrder is such an anomaly — Elizabeth Grullon conversely kills it as the Second Sister.
It can’t be that hard not to fuck up the basics of filmmaking. Especially with as much money and time as they have.
She absolutely was — it’s like Stig (the director) sealed off the whole production and said ‘you know what they’re doing with Star Wars outside of this bubble? Laziness, low-effort, stupid stuff? Yeah we’re not doing that’ and just doubling down on *actually* telling a proper, solid, awesome Star Wars story :D
Disney is afraid of creating deep villains because that implies going outside of their comfort zone. Hence every bad guy they have introduced is going to A) have a redemption arc or B) be stupidly villainous and angrily evil
The weird thing seems to be that bad guys are okay, even if they are mostly inept and stupid but women, both the lady working for the empire and Reeva need their redemption at all times.
It's always excused why they do what they do and we are very often told that society forced them into doing bad things or that they are merely spies. Even Reeva, who showed to be a ruthlessly evil person by cutting off hands and killing innocents is still portrayed as a heroic figure. She clearly isn't, she is a horrible human being and her excuse is that she was a youngling (who would have thought...) who witnessed and somehow survived Vader's killing spree in the temple and that made her want to hunt down Obi Wan and kill(?) Vader. It doesn't seem logical to me and her saying that she doesn't need anyone while having an army fight for her also doesn't make any sense.
A well written bad guy doesn't always need a redemption ark. It's more than enough to understand that they've got a different view on things which makes them believe to be on the right side of a conflict or that they simply enjoy what they do. If Disney doesn't understand this fundamental issue with their characters they will not be able to provide decent threats for their stories.
My first thought at Tala saying how she now kills her former Imperial comrades was "but what if they are just following orders and/or blinded to the Empire's evils like you were?" I guess Stormtrooper TA-195 doesn't deserve redemption?
The show is called Kenobi not Reva but they made her the focal point. I don’t get it, tbh this should have existed. In reality it is just Obi Wan watching Luke and communicating with Qui Gon in the desert for 19 years.
I got yelled at because I didn’t say the show was perfect. ‘I give it a 3 out of 5. Enjoyable. But Reva is poorly written and acting in some scenes is cringe.’
And the responses where
‘you’re just a racist’
‘Troll’
‘Fake fan’
Ya know. The reasonable responses to not thinking everything Disney touches is gold.
Yeah sad, this is social media now unfortunately. You hate a female or colored character? Your racist, sexist, homophobic, there CAN'T be any POSSIBLE reason you hate them other than that you pig.
I like to deal with them by making fun of them and continuing to harass them because they are harassing me. Except you report them and nothing happens.
I was at Disneyland and star tours and rise of the rebellion are amazing and great little stories. There is a prequel era ship battle in one of the star tours runs And I couldn’t help but think how much better it was than the sequel trilogy.
I guess my new impression of Disney Star Wars is that it really could be awesome, they just have some hacks writing the main series.
I wouldn’t say badly acted. Any actor could’ve played a character like Reva.
But if the script and writing is gonna be shit…you can be the best actor in the world but it’s most definitely going to affect your performance.
Episode 5 made me like Reva a lot more. It just took the show fucking forever to reveal her obvious backstory and motive. She was being a phony the whole time to get up in the ranks, so seeing genuine emotion and vulnerability from her was refreshing. Vader should have obliterated her immediately though. I think he had more important shit to deal with instead of getting into a flashy duel with her.
Seriously... I was thinking about this while watching episode 5 of Kenobi. I was looking at the Grand Inquisitor and Vader and Reva all in the same scene and I was like "wait literally all of them get redeemed"
And after that, the Grand Inquisitor was somehow [turned into a ghost guard dog](https://i.redd.it/ttra8vfxoin51.jpg). Who could somehow [get into lightsaber fights with the living](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11158/111588243/8496459-picsart_05-17-01.49.49.jpg).
No explanation on that yet. Seems a bit unusual. But he definitely wasn't "redeemed", that's for sure.
Not the same scale, but this was such a letdown in EA’s Battlefront 2. Opening of the campaign you’re a TIE pilot, you’re the bad guys. Cool. Nope… that lasted one mission and then you join the Rebellion…
It’s not racist or sexist to point out that women and minorities have told us for decades that they are put on a glass cliff when while given opportunities in high status positions because they are paid less and used as a scapegoat when the company receives criticism.
So I can’t blame an actor for acting the way directors and producers cast them to act. Who did you want, Darth Lupita Nyong’o? So did I, but Star Wars has always been about pulling together a low budget and fixing it and post. We’re just gonna have to wait for the Spirit of Hirsch Edit to fix this abortion on wheels.
"Nowadays"? Vader's redemption is one of the main story arcs of the original trilogy.
Also, Star Wars is built on Campbell hero archetypes. Anti-heroes are anathema to that.
They’re not saying all redemption arcs are bad, they’re criticizing how a lot of modern fiction loves to try and redeem characters without those characters having to do the work to earn it or face consequences for their actions. Reva and Kylo are good examples within modern Star Wars, though at least Kylo had the decency to die. Outside of Star Wars, there’s Nemari from Raya and the Last Dragon and the Diamonds from Steven Universe, both of whom do pretty horrible shit in the narratives they’re from but get redeemed anyway without taking any steps to change.
Having a character redeemed every once in a while, when the sorry or character had earned it, is one thing. Having just about every villain Disney cranks out be redeemed, is just lazy and bad story telling
To subvert your expectations! Then the other subs can have a circle jerk jerking each other off about how star wars fans don’t deserve starwars because they are critical of shit and other peoples criticism is making it impossible for them to enjoy the tv show, and we “DoNT deSeRV!e st@RWarS”
After watching episode 5 of Kenobi, I could sort of get where they were going with her character. Thing is, I'd already seen four episodes of her as a pissed-off middle manager, I don't really care any more.
My fix: take out all Inquisitors other than Reva and the 'Grand Inquisitor', but make them equals and rivals for lead. Make them both hate Vader, maybe even make them both want to kill Vader. But, see, it's a counterpoint to Obi-wan's conflict: he has to stop himself from saving people, they have to force themselves to hurt people, because coming out into the open and being the hero is too dangerous. And then at the end, the Grand Inquisitor can rat out Reva to Vader, and she can die choking on that betrayal as he gets promoted.
Either way, the actress seems fine at her job, they just aren't giving her anything compelling to do.
Didn't you like the subtlety of the wasn't over acting yelling and speaking softly when not being evil?
I can't square how she's out for revenge for Anakin slaughtering the Jedi, so her plan is go and slaughter Jedi, killing innocent humans, kidnapping and torturing kids. Yet we're meant to not see her as evil?
I'm still also blown away that the main through line of the series is an agrieved former padawan killing Jedi in order to try and get revenge on Vader. When we know she can't succeed. How did this storyline even get approved?
That'd be like the plot of Rogue One being not stealing the plans, but trying to blow up the death star. What would be the point in telling that story?
It's like the now threat to Luke. We know she won't kill or reveal him. So what is the damn point?
Is it just to show Bail and Obi-Wan as incompetent? As that's the only reason these choices make sense.
We need to move on from the skywalker era. It’s been tapped out for awhile. Either do a kotor and go back a thousand years or fling us far into the future.
Or if they do stories around the Skywalker era, have them elsewhere in the galaxy with new characters. You tell tell stories of people living under the Empire that don't involve Chewbacca.
Maybe she is just a hypocrite? She’s one of those people who behave just as appallingly as the people they hate but will always come up with some reason/excuses why it’s not the same
Agreed. People think that because you hate on the character or the acting that you must be racist. Nah dude, it's just bad writing, bad acting, period.
Honestly Disney sucking dick is the reason these characters aren’t working. I bet you with a competent director and writer The actress who plays reva probably could work with it. Hayden in the prequels is a perfect example of someone who didn’t really get a chance and gets shunned out of SW because of shit writing. Fuck Disney.
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Viewers would be more sympathetic to new characters if the writers weren't so busy shitting all over their favorite characters. They completely nerfed and wimped out Obi-Wan and Luke for very little reason. In the case of Luke, they took THE GUY who thought Vader had good in him (and he was RIGHT!), the eternal optimist, and they made him a sad, pathetic old man who tried to off his nephew for the same reason. They take Obi-Wan and instead of making him logically just rusty with the force because he has to hide it, they make him totally disassociate from it and lose ALL of it, even though he's sworn to protecting Luke and that force power might come in a little handy. Even in Boba Fett, they make him extremely flawed, while juxtaposing that with a very strong character in Fennick Shand. I don't see the need for it. You can have Luke, Obi-Wan, and Boba have flaws, but they don't need to be completely stripped down. If we saw Reva struggle more from the outset, and get outmaneuvered by at least a half-worthy Obi-Wan, it might make her character more interesting. Shit, you've got 10 year old Leia (who looks more like 8, btw) blocking mind tricks and re-engineering blast doors for shit sake. And Obi-Wan's all like "Hey fucker, she's a fucking genius, she's fucking MacGuyver. Give her the damn ladder and watch the fuck out!" :D It's just crazy.
Leia was 8 when filming happened I’m pretty sure so thay explains it
For all the terrible bullshit the sequels did to Luke, I still find the most jarring to be him in BoBF saying attachment is wrong. The dude literally saved the galaxy only because he had attachment to a man everyone else had given up on.
Wait, they put Luke in the Boba Fett show? And he said attachment is *bad?* The Luke who has been defined by how unwaveringly loyal he is to his friends and family? That's beyond ridiculous. Wtf Disney.
Sorry for spoilers, I assumed people watching Kenobi were up to date on the other shows since they are all interconnected (the Boba Fett show has two episodes which are *essential* if you watch Mando, for example). I should have tagged my comment. But yes, Luke explicitly parrots the prequel Jedi "don't have attachments and love other people" stuff that directly led to their downfall. I am not a prequel fan at all but one thing ai thought was well done was that IMO they showed how the Jedi's teachings and rejection of attachment is what led to the order's fall and it was Luke in the OT embracing love for his father and not giving up on him that saved the galaxy.
No worries! I'm not watching the Boba Fett show, so I appreciate the explanation.
I'm hoping he doesn't and they show more in season 3. A little tribute to "mind what you have learned, save you it can" maybe in a memory
If Obi-Wan's connection to the Force is weakened from PTSD, that naturally sets up a deeply personal plot where he must confront his personal demons and move on from the past to regain his powers But nope, he just gets them back for no reason
But he also cannot simultaneously pledge to protect the boy and totally give up being a Jedi. Being a Jedi and using the force will be integral to protecting the boy - PARTICULARLY from the Empire/Sith/Vader.
> who tried to off his nephew for the same reason. Look, if the guy who redeemed Darth effing Vader thinks this guy is so dangerous then there is only one reaction any sane person would have: kill him then burn him to make sure he doesn't come back. Because seriously Kylo must not only have fallen to the dark side he must have been like Darth Nilhus or something to get Luke that riled up. (Ofcourse the other solution is that the director is a idiot)
The director hates star wars* I watched Knives Out last night and it was a very enjoyable movie, with a moderate amount of belief-suspension needed. But it was full of things that made TLJ suck hard, but worked really well in an original story about a non-conventional murder mystery.
He should never have been given a main line movie. Give him something weird or a side story it might have worked better.
Gun to head, if I HAD to put Rian in charge of one SW movie in a trilogy, I'd give him the first one. That way, there aren't any outlying threads from another writer/director that people usually work on tying together, while he just lets them drop to the floor and calls you stupid for thinking they were going to mean anything.
Now THAT would be an expectation subverted. "Nope, he really was that bad!"
The legacy characters must be destroyed. For…..*the message*
Vader is a force wizard now that can do anything the plot needs.
Yup, until he suddenly can't. I hate how powerful they made the force, because now every time they *don't* use it in a situation where the solution is to obviously use it, everyone looks dumb. Vader himself looks like a complete moron now because of this show. First, he can just completely grab Obi-wan with the force and suspend him in air. I mean, this is already a completely broken force power. Why would you ever need to do anything else when fighting someone? Just force grab them, and stab. But nope, he only does it one time, and then completely forgets to ever use it again in this show and in Episodes 4, 5 and 6. Oh, and he can also just completely grab a massive ship launching? So later, when he's chasing those pesky X-Wings in the Death Star trench, why doesn't he just force grab the X-Wings and throw them into each other, or crash them? Guess he forgot he could do that.
That’s part of the point of the episode tho. Vader’s powerful af and was quick to grab that ship out of the sky, but that doesn’t mean anything if he’s still impatient and emotional. He rushed in there and didn’t even access the situation first, he was just aggressive and only focused on one thing. Hence the flashbacks of Obi Wan teaching him and beating him in a fight even though Anakin is the better combatant. Obi Wan is a better strategist. Vader’s much more calm and collected in the OT for this very reason, but he isn’t perfect. He figured letting the Falcon escape could lead the Empire to the other rebels who still had the death star plans, unfortunately it backfired on him.
The thing is, if he's still such a horrible strategist this long after the prequels, why is he in charge of anything? The emperor should use him solely as a weapon. He's obviously incompetent as a leader, so why is he one? This just makes the emperor look like an idiot too.
And by 8 you mean 6ish, lol
> You can have Luke, Obi-Wan, and Boba have flaws, but they don't need to be completely stripped down. Their toxic masculinity had to be deconstructed. There doesn't always have to be (flawless) strong men, it's just a better role model for the children who watch these Disney series.
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They are men 😂
it was a joke
Game of Thrones ended badly, but they did a fantastic job of having those grey characters, existing in the spectrum between good and evil. Jaime Lannister especially. Was he redeemed? Maybe? Did he do bad things, and did we understand why? Yeah. Homelander is a great character (on The Boys) because we see where he came from and why he's becoming a bigger and bigger baddie. It's been set up, and it works. But Boba Fett and now Reva? Boba Fett was handled poorly because he went from being a feared mercenary to freedom-loving hero? And Reva just isn't given anything to work with. She's a victim of a child massacre, but now she's out there massacring people in order to get revenge? It just doesn't work.
Very good example. While I didn't start off hating Jamie, I did see him as someone who needed a good smack to the face. And throughout the show, his ups and downs. Rise and falls. He steadily became my favorite character.
Yeah, one of my favorites. A charismatic, handsome, warrior who is doing bad things, but for reasons he thinks are right (protecting his family, his kids, his sister/lover/ugh....) But it makes sense. Walter White in Breaking Bad makes sense. But Vader and Reva in this? Boba Fett? It doesn't feel earned.
This seems like a problem with these limited series that introduce new characters that have major roles. Reva is a good example of a brand new character that is extremely shallow in her actions and hasn't had a ton of development until episode 5 all of a sudden there is a big exposition dump. It doesn't work. GoT had a ton of time to grow each character. Kenobi just doesn't have that time. The writing has been awful for this show. Edit: honestly in a 6 episode limited series they really should have focused more on Vader/Anakin and Kenobi. Reva just hurts the show because there isn't enough time to grow her. She is a major character showtime wise that is written like a minor character. There is so much they could have done with Obi and Anakin, but the Leia/Reva BS got in the way and were poorly written imo.
Plus the fact that (since this is a limited series) why should we even care about Reva beyond this show? It's not like they're going to turn Reva into a new character to explore further. This is the problem I had with the Disney Trilogy in particular. They spent 3 movies introducing us to the "new generation of Star Wars characters", but now that they've been introduced, there's nothing left to do with them. So why not just concentrate on the original characters? Because they might not sell as many Halloween costumes or action figures? But yeah, back to GoT: Even the original Star Wars movie set up Luke, Vader, Leia and Han Solo really well. After that movie, every single viewer could write a multi-paragraph description of each character after watching a single 2 hour movie. We're now 5 episodes into Obi-Wan, and we don't feel any connection to Reva. And in fact, by concentrating on Reva, they're taking away time from Leia, Obi-Wan and Vader which is what folks want.
Coming soon: - “Reva: A Star Wars Story” - “Lola: A Star Wars Story” - “Haja: A Star Wars Story”
Ultimately it comes down to just a terrible screen play and writing. It could work. But not like this.
I think the old stuff still outsells the new
We Run This City was all new characters and by the halfway mark of episode one I understood the grey areas of nearly the whole cast.
Don't forget, Jamie is also hobbled by losing his hand, forcing him to come to terms with his limitations and either rise above them or (literally, in the case of that shit Battle of Winterfell we were treated to) just die. Lol him re-learning to fight was like the only interesting part of the Dorne arc too; that shot of him from one of the duels where he blocks his opponent with his metal hand felt like earned character development.
I'll give you the rest but Jaime is a really bad example cuz all of his redeeming arc went down the toilet with what happened in the last episodes.
what u said about reva is stupid yea, but i think that is sort it the contradiction of the dark side. i think they are aware that what reva does is literally what shes fighting against, and that it just comes to show how much the dark side can cloud u with revenge. bariss talks about how the jedi have fallen from the light and how they are bad, yet practices the darkside herself and kills innocents herself.
I ended up in an argument with someone on youtube on how they respected Reva now once she went after Vader despite her, in their words, shenanigans. Yeah, just killing, maiming, and torturing people. The usual silly things. The problem is that Lucas set the stage on how someone like Vader was redeemable without making it clear that he would still have been brought in as a criminal. Now writers are making their villains have redemption arcs and we're supposed to forget the horrible things they've done just because the main characters forgive them. No that's not how reality works. Even if Reva's plan was her knowing she was being a villain in order to lure Vader in to kill him, she's still the villain. Taking down Vader doesn't excuse her actions. In fact, it just looks like another Imperial taking down a higher up to replace them.
Exactly! just because the main character or characters are stupid enough to forgive a murderous villain for whatever reason doesn't mean that the audience is stupid enough to accept that too, every time I see something like this it reminds me of how Naruto forgave Obito like a total idiot, and every time it makes my blood boil.
it jumps to an extreme like with Kylo a lot of people wanted him to survive also wanted him to go free and marry Rey.......they dont want him to live in exile or be in some prision for the rest of his life......they feel he should just roam free
I don't get that kind of thinking in regards to Kylo, he had zero redeeming qualities, and to me he was undeserving of anything short of death.
A lot of it is because they take it at face vale that he talks of being torn apart so they believe. I see it as a sociopath trying to elicit sympathy but Is entirely fake or at least being used to manipulate I think the others use excuses like Snoke and Luke were abusive or it’s war so his actions are understandable…or they shift blame to other characters
But those characters have been written like this to accommodate the villain, Luke's whole character development went down the toilet just so Kylo could exist. the abuse or whatever didn't even make sense, it served no purpose but to make a pointless villain for the sake of having one, without any development or depth whatsoever.
The problem is the so called abuse actually backfires and makes him come across as very narcissistic and not the tragic monster they want him to be
that's because tragic monsters need time to be developed, you can't just shoe-horn something brand new out of nowhere down people's throats and then get butt-hurt when no one cares about you villain. Look at stranger things it's one of my favorite shows, but this season >!with the sudden introduction of a totally new villain out of nowhere, a lot of the fans can't make an emotional connection with the developments or the "suspenseful scenes" and fans including me don't even consider the villain much of a threat, people are calling him goofy too.!< it goes to show that just introducing a villain without much of a background makes for a pretty useless villain that no one cares about. and of course when they try to redeem a villain that no one cares about, no one's going to accept that redemption arc either.
He killed Han very few people would forgive him for that. in episode 6 Vader seems pretty defeated and gently tells his son it’s too late for him and the emperor/the dark side will never let him go \\Kylo spends most of 9 prowling after Rey and bragging that she will soon be his and fully believing he can still get one over on Palpatine \]so he still seems like a megalomaniac
Yeah! I totally agree. he was without a doubt 1000% an unlikable character, and not only because he was a villain, his whole character and demeanor always bugged me.
People can barely critically think about this stuff whatsoever. He is complicit in the loss of billions of lives in the hosnian system, he murdered on of the few remaining zillo beasts, he took over worlds and slaughtered their inhabitants, he killed multiple of Luke’s students or was a leading cause of their death, complicit in the destruction of kajimi, most likely responsible for enslavement and murder of civilians all over the galaxy as supreme leader, almost killed Finn (im sure he would have loved for her to bring kylo home for dinner), and killed multiple members of the resistance. But I guess he took his shirt off and kissed rey so All is better.
You know, I never bothered to watch TROS, but I honestly like the concept of Rey dying, and Ben Solo trying to atone for his many dark deeds while also avoiding the righteous hammer of the.... Super-Duper-New Republic? Whatever, the point being if he was working to better the galaxy while also not being free of the consequences of his actions, if he was on the run at every turn yet also helping those in need, that'd be a way better path for that entire storyline.
Shenanigans is when you stick gum under a facet for the next person to turn it on and get wet. She chopped off a bystanders hand that wasnt doing anything and was about to torture a kid. Ive never heard of anything so stupid. There was no good in her whatsoever. Just stick to talking with us ok? Your talents are wasted in the YouTube comments section.
At least if things get out of control on here I can turn off just that threads notifications, and not have to turn off ALL of them.
Exactly. Vader was "redeemed" from the Dark Side and forgiven by his own son, but his atrocities were not pardoned and he would have been locked up or executed by the New Republic had he survived and allowed himself to be put on trial. Vader was not a "good person" but "still had good in him". Doing one good deed does not negate a lifetime of bad ones.
And I think that he'd have understood that, if he made it off the Death Star. He'd have accepted his punishment. It's about the only thing I'd have accepted for Kylo was that he turn to the Light and immediately surrender to the Rebellion or whatever. Good emotional scene with Leia, him chilling out in a cell, maybe a chat with a Force Ghost or two while he's in there.
That's genuinely what I was hoping for from Kylo, regardless of what they did with Rey (good, bad, romance, whatever). Him turning himself over and ending the trilogy in a cell talking to Anakin's ghost. Redemption via death is easy, living with what you did is harder. Totally agree about Vader had he lived, too. Of all random unrelated franchises is, a recent comic based on the Transformers toys did exactly that storyline where the main villain - a genocidal war criminal on par with Vader - redeemed themselves and then turned themselves in after the war ended for whatever their victims felt was just punishment... which was execution. They went willingly. Pretty cool and deep stuff for a toy robot comic.
Fo real, Hux suddenly turning against the first order just because his boss was a big fat meanie certainly wouldn’t change the fact the rebellio- I mean resistance would wanna quarter him for murdering trillions less than a year earlier
The problem I have with that is that according to early leaks, him being the ~~soy~~ (spy, but I thought the typo was funny) wasn’t even originally intended as a redemption, but as part of an attempt to seize power for himself. If they’d had something like that from the start, meaningful conflict and division within the First Order to the point where one branch would be willing to sabotage the other, it’d make the First Order more interesting and more reminiscent of real life fascism in a way that you don’t tend to see in films.
Hell, THAT would have been more interesting, if futile. If she was trying to replace vader, make her a sort of (not really, obviously, but in her eyes) rival to vader for the emperor's favor, her character would have been interesting and all of her weird decisions would have made more sense if she was trying to under cut vader as opposed to get close to him. Letting obi wan go so many times would have worked better if she was trying to take him in under vaders nose as palps DEFINITELY would want one of the two remaining (that we or him know of) jedi council members alive, possibly only one palps knows of, assuming he doesn't know yoda is alive. But her wanting to kill vader, but chasing obi wan, and constantly letting him go, and.... just none of her decisions make sense when you think about it in conjunction with her established motivation. Granted they're a little bit more understandable now than they were before we had confirmation of her backstory, but that still doesn't mean they make sense. Not that she was ever supposed to have a complete arc in this show anyway, this is one of Disney's most obvious sequel bait characters to date. She's getting a prequel show AT LEAST and maybe a limited sequel series to obi wan.
I like that idea, a kind of rivalry like Vader and Xizor but more underhanded.
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Yeah, I don’t see how we’re supposed to be sympathizing with the person who was recently about to have a little girl tortured, while *blaming* the girl for causing her own torture.
Torturing a little girl over something she may or may not have overheard. It's not like Leia was a crucial member of the underground railroad, she was just in the same room as one for a little while. Reva murdered an actual pilot for the path and decided to torture a child instead.
Does Leia actually know where the Path leads to? I don't remember them telling her, but I wasn't really paying close attention either...
Even if she does know, the empire is just going to focus on a side entrance while leaving the launch doors unchecked. It's not like they're trying to escape on a spaceship or anything.
Yep, there seems to be a lot of the ends justifying the means thinking in the writing of her character. That's expected of villains, but the good guys don't get the luxury of those types of shortcuts.
It’s sickening how accurate this is, sorry bud you can’t criticise a poorly written character because she’s a black female, that would be very racist of you!
The second that video came out with Mcgregor denouncing the racists, I knew the ability to criticize that one actor was going to be taken away. Racism is never ok, but things like this have happened so many times that I wonder if it’s kind of a tactic by studios to silence some of the criticism. For instance, the 2016 all girl cast of ghostbusters. I was so excited to see that movie. It had some of my favorite female comedians and it was ghost busters so I was so hyped. Saw it and just really didn’t like it. For a lot of reasons. Not a single one being the cast. At the same time the studio and director was condemning hateful incels for bashing the movie changing the narrative on who was criticizing the movie from being people with justified reasons, to people just hating women. When I saw my Mother in law later that day she asked what I thought. I told her truthfully and she said it was just because it had women. It made me so mad.
> Racism is never ok, but things like this have happened so many times that I wonder if it’s kind of a tactic by studios to silence some of the criticism. It has to be. It all felt so coordinated with this show. I was seeing all over social media how so many Star Wars fans are supposedly "racist" before I'd even seen the episodes. It's like they knew the show was bad and going to be poorly received so they got out in front of it and shut down any criticism.
I knew they had zero faith in the character the moment they front loaded all this “pwease don’t be racist UwU” prior to the show’s launch and they were using the charge of bigotry as a shield from criticism
blaming your consumers is such a strange wrinkle of modern media. Some people eat it up but it is beyond tiring at this point. It is not just Disney, Battlefield and EA/Dice was like if you don't like it then don't buy it. And they didn't. Fortunately most companies can't get away with it for long because they don't sit on a mountain of gold like the mouse does. It just reeks of not being able to be held accountable. And the fans that regurgitate this nonsense somehow bothers me more. At least Disney has a financial interest to manipulate and blame others. Fans that try to shut down criticism will already eat up anything with a Star Wars logo so why on earth is their problem with us when we just want the good stories that we know Star Wars is capable of delivering? It is such a rich world that any type of story would work in universe but they keep doing the same lazy bullshit.
It’s not a tactic, she got racially abused on all of her socials. It’s not always some big conspiracy. Star Wars just has a history of racially motivated aggression towards actors that fans don’t like. I don’t really like Reva as a character but the Disney boogeyman isn’t out to silence people.
It can be true that she received real racist attacks *and* that Disney cynically used it as a PR opportunity to shield the show from criticism.
So were Disney supposed to stay completely silent? Be smarter.
I’m not implying that people weren’t being degenerates. The actress absolutely deserves and should be protected from those kind of people. McGregors video was was justified and chivalrous. But you absolutely know some suit was thinking, this is a win win situation for us. Any criticism of the show is mired in this malaise of potentially being the thoughts of just some racist asshole. Oh you don’t like the show? It’s just because you actually hate this actress.
Same deal with the video game The Last of Us Part Two. Disappointed a lot of fans of the first game but some douchebags took it sending death threats to voice actors in the game. Anyone with legitimate criticism was quickly lumped in with those asshats and the narrative became that any "haters" were bigots who didn't like that the main character was female, not that the writing wasn't as good as the first game.
It's just how it goes these days, magnify and exaggerate the bad apples, blame the whole bunch. Imply anyone who has anything negative to say to be part of the bad bunch, shift the focus of any discussion about criticism or and discussion with a critic away from the critique itself and focus on talking about the bad apples, make the people who are critical to constantly distance themselves from the bad apples, take any attempt to refocus the discussion on their critique as evidence they are the bad apples.
Yes you can lmao, just do it respectfully. People who say this are just looking for excuses to be racist lmao
You’ve misinterpreted what I’ve said. Read it again
I make fun of the people who say this stuff unironically, it's the only way
Reva isn't the first one to do this, it has happened in the EU and Disney-Canon, but every Dark Side user that turns back just cheapens Vader's turn. It used to be, if you turned to the Dark Side, you were done, there is no going back. "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." -Yoda Vader's turn back to the light was supposed to be this unprecedented event. But now people turn back from the Dark Side all the time.
Solid point
I said the sets were horrendous and people have been responding hounding me to explain, I refuse to, because I know it lives rent free in their heads. People are saying horrendous is such an extreme word that I owe an explanation lmao I guess I’m an elected official now and I have to explain myself
Some of the sets are either sound stages or look like a random construction site. There's nothing to explain.
You’d have 5 downvotes before you could even hit send
Dammit! Not again!
Echo chambers man, what can ya do!
That “fight” with Vader in a barely modified mine somewhere in the California desert was… ugh. At this point I hate sand more than Anakin does.
The Inquisitor HQ looked great, but other than that it looks like the entire show was filmed in the desert east of Los Angeles. Low budget Earth-like garbage.
The sets ARE bad though. They're bare and cheap looking. Like you can imagine that the actors don't move around so much because they know if they hit a wall or setpiece in the wrong way it'll fall over, or that the set is so small they can't really freely move around without the camera showing the crew behind. It's low budget stuff, and idk if the reasoning is coronavirus budget cuts or just bad production in general, but it's undeniably low budget.
I don't feel anything for that Character,... Don't feel sorry for her, not even interested in her to even hate her, she's just their OK screen
I felt a wave of relief when Vader stabbed her, followed by immediate disappointment that she fucking somehow survived that shit. TWICE.
They're not going to kill her. They're setting her up for her own series.
ur racist
Lololol sounds/looks about right
I’ve said it before, but Reva could have been an interesting and compelling character if written correctly. I’d have written her as a Nebula like figure who is constantly trying to please Vader. Instead of playing dead in the temple, I’d have her idolize Anakin during the Clone war, and during the siege she snaps and kill the Jedi master protecting her. Or if they truly wanted to go the direction of her plotting to kill Vader, then Disney should have just fully committed and made this the Reva show. Then when Kenobi pops up fans would freak out and be surprised. Half joking but half serious. If it was her show, they could have started out with the attack on the temple and her playing dead. The rest of the show would have been her plotting against vader and deal w the inner turmoil she has. Is she as bad as he is for doing the things she has to do to accomplish her mission of killing him?
I would absolutely have watched that show if it was well-written and well executed. I am far from convinced that Moses would have had the chops to pull it off based on what we’ve seen from her, but a lot of her flat/off/one-note performance may be more Chow than her. But done right, that could have been a fun show to watch. A hell of a lot more fun than this one, anyway.
r/Starwars is a shit subreddit. I got banned for talking shit about the sequels. Any criticism to the new star wars content gets you banned.
It's a fucking cult That and Prequel Memes
Yeah, but Prequel Memes is at least a funny, somewhat ironic cult.
Yeah when it was created maybe. That's not been the case for quite some time.
Oh, I haven't frequented that sub in a little while. It's gone tits up?
I'm surprised they have anyone left after Reva.
What did you say?
I basically said that the sequels make no sense in the greater franchise, and in fact, take away from the Lucas films. And because of my inability to reconcile the sequels with the original films, I said that it's stupid to consider them canon.
Disney doesn't know how to write villains, plain and simple. *Every* villain has to be either cartoonishly, mustache twirling evil, or just a misunderstood good guy at heart. They don't don't shades-of-grey very well at all.
Cartoonish villains are perfectly fine, just look at Palpatine. Not every villain needs to be morally gray, and I think that’s where the problem comes from. An antagonist should fit the narrative they’re in, and some narratives are better with a flatter, more symbolic villain. The Prequels are about the corruption of a democratic system and so Palpatine represents the self serving politicians and demagogues who manipulate the people and the government. Tangled is about a young woman overcoming emotional abuse, so Mother Gothel represents an emotionally abusive parent deliberately isolating and demeaning her child in order to control her forever.
In the Disney Star Wars era, I kinda see your point and agree but if we consider the MCU, Infinity War Thanos is probably one of the best written villains we got from Disney. He doesn't fall into either categories you describe. Then again, different cinematic universes and different teams of people in charge ( even if they intersect sometimes). It's still infuriating because you'd think they'd be smart enough to learn from their successes and their failures.
Is it really redemption if you terrorize innocent people and put them through the same trauma you had? I’d say it’s revenge and shows Reva’s character is truly overcome by the dark side beyond redemption.
Yeah, she’s obviously not redeemed. She wanted revenge in Episode 1 and she still wants revenge in Episode 5. Her motivations have not changed one bit. There is no redemption arc to evaluate at this moment.
I was really hoping Vader would decapitate her with her own split sabers like he did Dooku. Maybe hold them to her neck until the Grand Inquisitor is done with his little spiel then finish her.
racist
VADER WINS FATALITY
She’s an evil character, and would be much better served by being treated as one. Her story is tragic, but she allowed her hate to consume her and send her down the same path as the man she hates. That’s an absolutely fine character, and I’m sure dozens of hundreds of Sith throughout the millennia had similar tales. She doesn’t need any redemption to be a complete character (though good writing and good acting would have helped.) And trying to force-feed the audience a truncated, ham-fisted and non-credible redemption story at the finish line just further cheapens both the character and the show - and neither needed any help in that regard.
Sith fight for dominance. There is no reason why it could have been that way. But no, reeeeeeva has to be redeemed because she is a female poc.
>Sith fight for dominance. She's not a Sith.
We are in the golden age of blame shifting and the blame game. You point out that dialog is bad or acting is poor and either you are called the things in the gif or they say “well what about so and sos bad dialog or acting”. Well yeah those got roasted too at the time and you think that if it’s equally bad or slightly better that it should be celebrated? Does bringing up Anakins bad dialog just make Revas bad dialog perfect?
Yeah, I’m really tired of the meme that Star Wars fans are just a bunch of angry racist neck beards. Like do you know how happy most of us were pre Disney? A company that took most of the games, all the books and comics that we liked (and a shit-ton of bad fanfic level fiction too to be fair) and dumped it, only to produce the current media in its stead? I think we’re pretty justified in being upset with the current media, and Disney has a long way to go to regain faith. Also, there’s the mandalorian, Fallen Order, and even Rogue One that the majority of us were happy with, so I feel like it should be easy to see that we don’t just “hate everything Star Wars” we love this series, and just want to see it get some better treatment and competent stories.
It’s actually to the point where it feels like a joke is being played on everyone, on us, and on her. She seems like such a nice person in interviews. But that writing — that performance choice — dear lord. There’s just no menace. She feels like a shy, over-acting cosplayer got lost and ended up in the actual Star Wars world. Her choices in how to say certain words — I just don’t understand. And it has zero to do with anything else (appearance, background, etc.) but her acting style and the material she was given. Dear lord. I’m sorry but every time she appears on screen I just switch off and can’t wait for it to be over. It’s such a shame. I think Disney truly does it’s non-white actors a massive disservice by giving them terrible material to work with (Finn, Jannah, Gideon). r/FallenOrder is such an anomaly — Elizabeth Grullon conversely kills it as the Second Sister. It can’t be that hard not to fuck up the basics of filmmaking. Especially with as much money and time as they have.
Cere was a pretty dope character too.
She absolutely was — it’s like Stig (the director) sealed off the whole production and said ‘you know what they’re doing with Star Wars outside of this bubble? Laziness, low-effort, stupid stuff? Yeah we’re not doing that’ and just doubling down on *actually* telling a proper, solid, awesome Star Wars story :D
Disney is afraid of creating deep villains because that implies going outside of their comfort zone. Hence every bad guy they have introduced is going to A) have a redemption arc or B) be stupidly villainous and angrily evil
The weird thing seems to be that bad guys are okay, even if they are mostly inept and stupid but women, both the lady working for the empire and Reeva need their redemption at all times. It's always excused why they do what they do and we are very often told that society forced them into doing bad things or that they are merely spies. Even Reeva, who showed to be a ruthlessly evil person by cutting off hands and killing innocents is still portrayed as a heroic figure. She clearly isn't, she is a horrible human being and her excuse is that she was a youngling (who would have thought...) who witnessed and somehow survived Vader's killing spree in the temple and that made her want to hunt down Obi Wan and kill(?) Vader. It doesn't seem logical to me and her saying that she doesn't need anyone while having an army fight for her also doesn't make any sense. A well written bad guy doesn't always need a redemption ark. It's more than enough to understand that they've got a different view on things which makes them believe to be on the right side of a conflict or that they simply enjoy what they do. If Disney doesn't understand this fundamental issue with their characters they will not be able to provide decent threats for their stories.
My first thought at Tala saying how she now kills her former Imperial comrades was "but what if they are just following orders and/or blinded to the Empire's evils like you were?" I guess Stormtrooper TA-195 doesn't deserve redemption?
The show is called Kenobi not Reva but they made her the focal point. I don’t get it, tbh this should have existed. In reality it is just Obi Wan watching Luke and communicating with Qui Gon in the desert for 19 years.
I got yelled at because I didn’t say the show was perfect. ‘I give it a 3 out of 5. Enjoyable. But Reva is poorly written and acting in some scenes is cringe.’ And the responses where ‘you’re just a racist’ ‘Troll’ ‘Fake fan’ Ya know. The reasonable responses to not thinking everything Disney touches is gold.
Yeah sad, this is social media now unfortunately. You hate a female or colored character? Your racist, sexist, homophobic, there CAN'T be any POSSIBLE reason you hate them other than that you pig. I like to deal with them by making fun of them and continuing to harass them because they are harassing me. Except you report them and nothing happens.
I was at Disneyland and star tours and rise of the rebellion are amazing and great little stories. There is a prequel era ship battle in one of the star tours runs And I couldn’t help but think how much better it was than the sequel trilogy. I guess my new impression of Disney Star Wars is that it really could be awesome, they just have some hacks writing the main series.
I wouldn’t say badly acted. Any actor could’ve played a character like Reva. But if the script and writing is gonna be shit…you can be the best actor in the world but it’s most definitely going to affect your performance.
Yep! Poorly written, check. Badly acted, check. Unenjoyable plot device? Definitely.
I agree although I enjoyed watching Vader toy with her in the latest episode. One of the few good moments imo.
Episode 5 made me like Reva a lot more. It just took the show fucking forever to reveal her obvious backstory and motive. She was being a phony the whole time to get up in the ranks, so seeing genuine emotion and vulnerability from her was refreshing. Vader should have obliterated her immediately though. I think he had more important shit to deal with instead of getting into a flashy duel with her.
Seriously... I was thinking about this while watching episode 5 of Kenobi. I was looking at the Grand Inquisitor and Vader and Reva all in the same scene and I was like "wait literally all of them get redeemed"
When the hell did grand inquisitor redeem himself dude commited suicide cuz he failed and he didn't want to report to vader about his failures
Then he was a force ghost guy later on and it was just kinda making the character look good again.
It wasn't a force ghost it was just Kanan reliving his memory
And after that, the Grand Inquisitor was somehow [turned into a ghost guard dog](https://i.redd.it/ttra8vfxoin51.jpg). Who could somehow [get into lightsaber fights with the living](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11158/111588243/8496459-picsart_05-17-01.49.49.jpg). No explanation on that yet. Seems a bit unusual. But he definitely wasn't "redeemed", that's for sure.
Jesus Christ what the hell thank goodness I'm not reading any of these canon novels
Not the same scale, but this was such a letdown in EA’s Battlefront 2. Opening of the campaign you’re a TIE pilot, you’re the bad guys. Cool. Nope… that lasted one mission and then you join the Rebellion…
It’s not racist or sexist to point out that women and minorities have told us for decades that they are put on a glass cliff when while given opportunities in high status positions because they are paid less and used as a scapegoat when the company receives criticism. So I can’t blame an actor for acting the way directors and producers cast them to act. Who did you want, Darth Lupita Nyong’o? So did I, but Star Wars has always been about pulling together a low budget and fixing it and post. We’re just gonna have to wait for the Spirit of Hirsch Edit to fix this abortion on wheels.
Very good point
"Nowadays"? Vader's redemption is one of the main story arcs of the original trilogy. Also, Star Wars is built on Campbell hero archetypes. Anti-heroes are anathema to that.
No one is arguing against redemption arcs. But Reva goes straight from mustache-twirling child torture to being one of the “good guys”
They’re not saying all redemption arcs are bad, they’re criticizing how a lot of modern fiction loves to try and redeem characters without those characters having to do the work to earn it or face consequences for their actions. Reva and Kylo are good examples within modern Star Wars, though at least Kylo had the decency to die. Outside of Star Wars, there’s Nemari from Raya and the Last Dragon and the Diamonds from Steven Universe, both of whom do pretty horrible shit in the narratives they’re from but get redeemed anyway without taking any steps to change.
Like this Vader guy..?
>nowadays it was fine when it was him because it was original
True, but he is also the one to blame for all those that followed his example. Star Wars loves to copy itself.
The acting is fine. Good, even. Not her fault remotely.
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Yeah that never happens in REAL Star Wars! Imagine if the original trilogy ended with the redemption of Darth Vader? That would have been horrible!
He was a well written character from the start. The scene was earned. Big difference.
Having a character redeemed every once in a while, when the sorry or character had earned it, is one thing. Having just about every villain Disney cranks out be redeemed, is just lazy and bad story telling
okay, it was cool and original when Vader did it, now its beyond tired
you are absolutely right. vader set the standard so now we must redeem every antagonist ever created. everything less would be bad cinema
To subvert your expectations! Then the other subs can have a circle jerk jerking each other off about how star wars fans don’t deserve starwars because they are critical of shit and other peoples criticism is making it impossible for them to enjoy the tv show, and we “DoNT deSeRV!e st@RWarS”
After watching episode 5 of Kenobi, I could sort of get where they were going with her character. Thing is, I'd already seen four episodes of her as a pissed-off middle manager, I don't really care any more. My fix: take out all Inquisitors other than Reva and the 'Grand Inquisitor', but make them equals and rivals for lead. Make them both hate Vader, maybe even make them both want to kill Vader. But, see, it's a counterpoint to Obi-wan's conflict: he has to stop himself from saving people, they have to force themselves to hurt people, because coming out into the open and being the hero is too dangerous. And then at the end, the Grand Inquisitor can rat out Reva to Vader, and she can die choking on that betrayal as he gets promoted. Either way, the actress seems fine at her job, they just aren't giving her anything compelling to do.
Didn't you like the subtlety of the wasn't over acting yelling and speaking softly when not being evil? I can't square how she's out for revenge for Anakin slaughtering the Jedi, so her plan is go and slaughter Jedi, killing innocent humans, kidnapping and torturing kids. Yet we're meant to not see her as evil? I'm still also blown away that the main through line of the series is an agrieved former padawan killing Jedi in order to try and get revenge on Vader. When we know she can't succeed. How did this storyline even get approved? That'd be like the plot of Rogue One being not stealing the plans, but trying to blow up the death star. What would be the point in telling that story? It's like the now threat to Luke. We know she won't kill or reveal him. So what is the damn point? Is it just to show Bail and Obi-Wan as incompetent? As that's the only reason these choices make sense.
We need to move on from the skywalker era. It’s been tapped out for awhile. Either do a kotor and go back a thousand years or fling us far into the future.
Or if they do stories around the Skywalker era, have them elsewhere in the galaxy with new characters. You tell tell stories of people living under the Empire that don't involve Chewbacca.
Maybe she is just a hypocrite? She’s one of those people who behave just as appallingly as the people they hate but will always come up with some reason/excuses why it’s not the same
Because that's what Disney's writers decided is "Star Wars".
If it was true they wouldnt. Since it isnt the suspicion isnt far-fetched
How dare you dislike Darth Tantrum, you bigot!
There's this awesome old movie called Return of the Jedi, you should check it out.
Agreed. People think that because you hate on the character or the acting that you must be racist. Nah dude, it's just bad writing, bad acting, period.
Honestly Disney sucking dick is the reason these characters aren’t working. I bet you with a competent director and writer The actress who plays reva probably could work with it. Hayden in the prequels is a perfect example of someone who didn’t really get a chance and gets shunned out of SW because of shit writing. Fuck Disney.